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Title: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 30, 2012, 10:14:15 PM
Here are the L21+ DF13- people that I have to-date:

f37201____ Berry____________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ RHFU8___ England, Yorkshire and Humber, West Yorkshire, Almondbury Huddersfield
fN72406___ Darke____________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ G8GVC___ England, London
f54798____ Franklin_________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ 7FXAK___ England
f174870___ Franklin_________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ ___ England
fN66966___ Gery_____________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ SP96E___ France, Bretagne, Finistère, Morlaix
f127090___ LeBlanc__________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ EH9SR___ France
f25304____ Maddox___________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ ___ France
f191950___ Lowden___________________ R-L21/DF63___________________ X13-1011____________ 8XW6J___ Scotland, Tayside, Forfarshire, Dundee
fN80403___ Bishop___________________ R-L21**______________________ X13-1313____________ GDNM8___ England, London
f232541___ Roma_____________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13-913_____________ JRJZC___ Spain


An intesting geographic distribution. No one from Ireland yet, which says something given the number of Irish who have tested for DF13.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 01, 2012, 11:03:13 AM
Given sample biases, 3 French out of 10 is an incredible amount in such a small group.  I find that a lot more significant than 5 British given the enormous bias towards that group.  I would love to know the percentages i.e 3 out of how many French tested?  5 out of how many British Isles tested?  I bet that would put it in a different light and show the significance of the 3 French results. I would imagine the British Isles 5 is out of hugely larger sample than the French 3.


Overall a lot of France and Britain is pretty well in line with what we know of L21 as a whole.  I would still feel it supports that L21 took off as P312* passed through northern France shortly before it took off to Britain.    


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: jerome72 on July 02, 2012, 10:23:54 AM
I think it will be interresting to compare the different results between the countries of continental Europe.
There where DF13- will be the most important, maybe we will have the place of origin of L21...


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 02, 2012, 11:39:14 AM
I think it will be interresting to compare the different results between the countries of continental Europe.
There where DF13- will be the most important, maybe we will have the place of origin of L21...


I think you could be right. When the DF13 results first started streaming in, and it looked like everyone was positive, I thought DF13 might be another flash-in-the-pan SNP. Now it looks like it could be important.

Right now I am trying to encourage our continentals to order the DF13 test. It's too bad our General Fund is a bit low right now.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 02, 2012, 12:42:08 PM
I have often said a lit of negatives by country is as important as a list of positives.  That is the only way that a percentage of DF13 to L21* can be estimated on a country by country basis.  I would love to know how many Isles people tested to find the 5 L21xDF13 folk compared to French who tested to get 3 L21XDF=F13.  A list of L21xDF13 tells us a lot less than it would if we new how many people tested DF13+ in the round of testings and the ratio on a country by country basis.  I would imagine there were 10 times or more isles people to French testing for this SNP maybe far more than that.  Anyone got any stats? I would think that the real news here is that a far higher ration of L21* to DF13 exists in France than the isles and that could be described as vastly higher if you compare France to the non-English in the isles.   


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 02, 2012, 12:48:32 PM
I have often said a lit of negatives by country is as important as a list of positives.  That is the only way that a percentage of DF13 to L21* can be estimated on a country by country basis.  I would love to know how many Isles people tested to find the 5 L21xDF13 folk compared to French who tested to get 3 L21XDF=F13.  A list of L21xDF13 tells us a lot less than it would if we new how many people tested DF13+ in the round of testings and the ratio on a country by country basis.  I would imagine there were 10 times or more isles people to French testing for this SNP maybe far more than that.  Anyone got any stats? I would think that the real news here is that a far higher ration of L21* to DF13 exists in France than the isles and that could be described as vastly higher if you compare France to the non-English in the isles.   

I can tell you easily about the French. Six men with French y-dna ancestry have received DF13 test results, and half of them are negative.

So many men of British Isles y-dna ancestry have been tested for DF13 already that it would be too much work to try to collect that stat. I'm too lazy to do it! :-)


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 02, 2012, 12:51:48 PM
I have often said a lit of negatives by country is as important as a list of positives.  That is the only way that a percentage of DF13 to L21* can be estimated on a country by country basis.  I would love to know how many Isles people tested to find the 5 L21xDF13 folk compared to French who tested to get 3 L21XDF=F13.  A list of L21xDF13 tells us a lot less than it would if we new how many people tested DF13+ in the round of testings and the ratio on a country by country basis.  I would imagine there were 10 times or more isles people to French testing for this SNP maybe far more than that.  Anyone got any stats? I would think that the real news here is that a far higher ration of L21* to DF13 exists in France than the isles and that could be described as vastly higher if you compare France to the non-English in the isles.   

I can tell you easily about the French. Six men with French y-dna ancestry have received DF13 test results, and half of them are negative.

So many men of British Isles y-dna ancestry have been tested for DF13 already that it would be too much work to try to collect that stat. I'm too lazy to do it! :-)

For Spain, we have two results: one positive (a man of Basque ancestry), and one negative (a Catalonian).

Standby for more!


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 02, 2012, 12:54:56 PM
Here are the L21+ DF13- people that I have to-date:

f37201____ Berry____________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ RHFU8___ England, Yorkshire and Humber, West Yorkshire, Almondbury Huddersfield
fN72406___ Darke____________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ G8GVC___ England, London
f54798____ Franklin_________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ 7FXAK___ England
f174870___ Franklin_________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ ___ England
fN66966___ Gery_____________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ SP96E___ France, Bretagne, Finistère, Morlaix
f127090___ LeBlanc__________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ EH9SR___ France
f25304____ Maddox___________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ ___ France
f191950___ Lowden___________________ R-L21/DF63___________________ X13-1011____________ 8XW6J___ Scotland, Tayside, Forfarshire, Dundee
fN80403___ Bishop___________________ R-L21**______________________ X13-1313____________ GDNM8___ England, London
f232541___ Roma_____________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13-913_____________ JRJZC___ Spain


An intesting geographic distribution. No one from Ireland yet, which says something given the number of Irish who have tested for DF13.

I had a look at the surnames.  They are all the sort of names you get in high Medieval England and lowland Scotland.  They dont tell us much.  I was wondering if they could be Normans but the jury would be out on most of them. They could be but they are not distinctive enough to suggest a Medieval French origin.  Regardless, if DF13 is a spin-off of L21* in France then DF13 also probably took off and prospered in a similar area before arriving in the isles.  The isles could be a fission of a mix of L21* and DF13* in France but with a bit of a founder effect meaning less L21* or simply DF13* may have already become dominant before crossing to the isles.  


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 02, 2012, 12:55:59 PM
I have often said a lit of negatives by country is as important as a list of positives.  That is the only way that a percentage of DF13 to L21* can be estimated on a country by country basis.  I would love to know how many Isles people tested to find the 5 L21xDF13 folk compared to French who tested to get 3 L21XDF=F13.  A list of L21xDF13 tells us a lot less than it would if we new how many people tested DF13+ in the round of testings and the ratio on a country by country basis.  I would imagine there were 10 times or more isles people to French testing for this SNP maybe far more than that.  Anyone got any stats? I would think that the real news here is that a far higher ration of L21* to DF13 exists in France than the isles and that could be described as vastly higher if you compare France to the non-English in the isles.   

I can tell you easily about the French. Six men with French y-dna ancestry have received DF13 test results, and half of them are negative.

So many men of British Isles y-dna ancestry have been tested for DF13 already that it would be too much work to try to collect that stat. I'm too lazy to do it! :-)

Roughly though are we talking 30, 60, 100, 200 or what in terms of British and Irish?


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 02, 2012, 12:56:38 PM
I should add that I am not including members of DF13+ subclades, just men who are currently in the R-L21* geographic categories mentioned. For example, there are two or three Frenchmen who are DF23+. They are, by default, DF13+, as well.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 02, 2012, 12:58:04 PM
I have often said a lit of negatives by country is as important as a list of positives.  That is the only way that a percentage of DF13 to L21* can be estimated on a country by country basis.  I would love to know how many Isles people tested to find the 5 L21xDF13 folk compared to French who tested to get 3 L21XDF=F13.  A list of L21xDF13 tells us a lot less than it would if we new how many people tested DF13+ in the round of testings and the ratio on a country by country basis.  I would imagine there were 10 times or more isles people to French testing for this SNP maybe far more than that.  Anyone got any stats? I would think that the real news here is that a far higher ration of L21* to DF13 exists in France than the isles and that could be described as vastly higher if you compare France to the non-English in the isles.   

I can tell you easily about the French. Six men with French y-dna ancestry have received DF13 test results, and half of them are negative.

So many men of British Isles y-dna ancestry have been tested for DF13 already that it would be too much work to try to collect that stat. I'm too lazy to do it! :-)

For Spain, we have two results: one positive (a man of Basque ancestry), and one negative (a Catalonian).

Standby for more!

Interesting.  Those area of Spain seem to go with France IMO, as they do in terms of L21 overall.  They seem like the western edge of the main continental L21 zone, perhaps even a bit of a mountain refuge for people who originally were based in France (as some suggest for Catalans and Basques).


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 02, 2012, 12:58:14 PM
I have often said a lit of negatives by country is as important as a list of positives.  That is the only way that a percentage of DF13 to L21* can be estimated on a country by country basis.  I would love to know how many Isles people tested to find the 5 L21xDF13 folk compared to French who tested to get 3 L21XDF=F13.  A list of L21xDF13 tells us a lot less than it would if we new how many people tested DF13+ in the round of testings and the ratio on a country by country basis.  I would imagine there were 10 times or more isles people to French testing for this SNP maybe far more than that.  Anyone got any stats? I would think that the real news here is that a far higher ration of L21* to DF13 exists in France than the isles and that could be described as vastly higher if you compare France to the non-English in the isles.   

I can tell you easily about the French. Six men with French y-dna ancestry have received DF13 test results, and half of them are negative.

So many men of British Isles y-dna ancestry have been tested for DF13 already that it would be too much work to try to collect that stat. I'm too lazy to do it! :-)

Roughly though are we talking 30, 60, 100, 200 or what in terms of British and Irish?


Without actually counting, I don't know for sure, but I would guess at least 30 times as many men of British Isles descent have been tested.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 02, 2012, 12:59:51 PM
I have often said a lit of negatives by country is as important as a list of positives.  That is the only way that a percentage of DF13 to L21* can be estimated on a country by country basis.  I would love to know how many Isles people tested to find the 5 L21xDF13 folk compared to French who tested to get 3 L21XDF=F13.  A list of L21xDF13 tells us a lot less than it would if we new how many people tested DF13+ in the round of testings and the ratio on a country by country basis.  I would imagine there were 10 times or more isles people to French testing for this SNP maybe far more than that.  Anyone got any stats? I would think that the real news here is that a far higher ration of L21* to DF13 exists in France than the isles and that could be described as vastly higher if you compare France to the non-English in the isles.   

I can tell you easily about the French. Six men with French y-dna ancestry have received DF13 test results, and half of them are negative.

So many men of British Isles y-dna ancestry have been tested for DF13 already that it would be too much work to try to collect that stat. I'm too lazy to do it! :-)

wow 50% for France and the Pyrennian area of Spain.  That fits very nicely with the peak zone of continental L21


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 02, 2012, 01:04:54 PM
The Germans are another story. Eight DF13 results, all positive.

The Rhenish Beaker route to the Isles or am I overreaching?


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 02, 2012, 01:05:02 PM
I have often said a lit of negatives by country is as important as a list of positives.  That is the only way that a percentage of DF13 to L21* can be estimated on a country by country basis.  I would love to know how many Isles people tested to find the 5 L21xDF13 folk compared to French who tested to get 3 L21XDF=F13.  A list of L21xDF13 tells us a lot less than it would if we new how many people tested DF13+ in the round of testings and the ratio on a country by country basis.  I would imagine there were 10 times or more isles people to French testing for this SNP maybe far more than that.  Anyone got any stats? I would think that the real news here is that a far higher ration of L21* to DF13 exists in France than the isles and that could be described as vastly higher if you compare France to the non-English in the isles.   

I can tell you easily about the French. Six men with French y-dna ancestry have received DF13 test results, and half of them are negative.

So many men of British Isles y-dna ancestry have been tested for DF13 already that it would be too much work to try to collect that stat. I'm too lazy to do it! :-)

Roughly though are we talking 30, 60, 100, 200 or what in terms of British and Irish?


Without actually counting, I don't know for sure, but I would guess at least 30 times as many men of British Isles descent have been tested.

So that would be 5 out of perhaps 200=2.5% for the isles combined against 4 out of 8= 50% for France and the France-Spain border area.  I think that is pretty conclusive.  Think that is a big moment in L21 studies, particularly for us two who have fought hard against the L21=isles people.  Give yourself a slap on the back!


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 02, 2012, 01:08:11 PM
I have often said a lit of negatives by country is as important as a list of positives.  That is the only way that a percentage of DF13 to L21* can be estimated on a country by country basis.  I would love to know how many Isles people tested to find the 5 L21xDF13 folk compared to French who tested to get 3 L21XDF=F13.  A list of L21xDF13 tells us a lot less than it would if we new how many people tested DF13+ in the round of testings and the ratio on a country by country basis.  I would imagine there were 10 times or more isles people to French testing for this SNP maybe far more than that.  Anyone got any stats? I would think that the real news here is that a far higher ration of L21* to DF13 exists in France than the isles and that could be described as vastly higher if you compare France to the non-English in the isles.   

I can tell you easily about the French. Six men with French y-dna ancestry have received DF13 test results, and half of them are negative.

So many men of British Isles y-dna ancestry have been tested for DF13 already that it would be too much work to try to collect that stat. I'm too lazy to do it! :-)

Roughly though are we talking 30, 60, 100, 200 or what in terms of British and Irish?


Without actually counting, I don't know for sure, but I would guess at least 30 times as many men of British Isles descent have been tested.

So that would be 5 out of perhaps 200=2.5% for the isles combined against 4 out of 8= 50% for France and the France-Spain border area.  I think that is pretty conclusive.  Think that is a big moment in L21 studies, particularly for us two who have fought hard against the L21=isles people.  Give yourself a slap on the back!

I'll have a celebratory glass of Sangria this evening (I really will). :-)

I would have had one anyway, but tonight it will be for a reason in addition to the fact that it tastes so good.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 02, 2012, 01:09:26 PM
One Portuguese DF13 result thus far: positive.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 02, 2012, 01:14:07 PM
The Germans are another story. Eight DF13 results, all positive.

The Rhenish Beaker route to the Isles or am I overreaching?

Well France is 50-50 which is what I would expect for an area where L21 and then DF13 arose in rapid succession.  I see your point though.  DF13-only/dominated populations are some sort of fission/founder effect offshoot of the mixed L21/DF13 population in France.  If isles (including/especially the Celtic fringe areas) L21 AND German L21 both are DF13 dominated and lack L21* then that is either a coincidence or maybe one derived from the other.  Or perhaps both derive from one offshoot.  Its incredibly interesting.  One way or another L21 became very dominant among the British in pre-Roman times and the British's main links with beaker seem to have been with the Lower Rhine area.  L21 is not strong there now but it may have been in beaker times.  U106 overall may only be 4000 years old or so and west of east Germany/Poland its variance is much lower suggesting it only got there maybe 1000BC so someone clearly was there pre-U106.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 02, 2012, 01:14:28 PM
There are three DF13+ results from the "New World: Spanish or Portuguese Surname" category. All three have Spanish surnames. If they are counted as Spanish - and I'm pretty sure they should be - that reduces the percentage of DF13- results from Iberia thus far.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 02, 2012, 01:18:43 PM
One Portuguese DF13 result thus far: positive.

The plot thickens.  Need a bigger sample though.  Once you have two in a small sample I think it tends to be telling you something.  One is a bit too small though.  However, if L21* does maintain that kind of strike rate in Atlantic Iberia (where L21 is not common) then it may through up a surprise and be another reminder that frequency means diddly squat in terms of origins. 


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 02, 2012, 01:24:24 PM
The Baltic Cluster is DF13+.  Klyosov's analysis indicated it was probably brought to NE Europe by German Jews who fled Germany during the Middle Ages due to persecution.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 02, 2012, 01:32:52 PM
Jeez this is exciting stuff.  I was kind of surprised that the significance of this was not commented on yesterday after Mike posted.  Whatever it means (and maybe I am jumping the gun a bit) it is a very strong trend with France and its western border in Spain being the area where its 50-50 and Germany and the isles and Germany are just subsets.  

Here is another possibility based on this.  L21xDF13 was a little more south and western while DF13 occurred on the east of the early L21* world moving on a north and east trajectory.  Maybe we should see them as two parallel lineages, one weighted slightly west and drifting more west and one weighted slightly more east drifting more north and east.. and the origin point most likely where the two lineages both occur i.e. France.  If the sample of L21* ever gets to a decent size where a fair comparison could be made between it and an equal random sample of the massive DF13* group then that would be very interesting.  I would like to see samples of 20 or so for continental countries like France etc before that is done though because one group is huge and the other tiny right now. Mind you if half of all French L21 is L21xDF13 then there is plenty out there if only they would test.  I would think that L21XDF13 could well be the reason that France has the highest variance.  My prediction is DF13 will be younger but not by much.  


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 02, 2012, 01:34:57 PM
Okay, I did the bean counting for British Isles DF13+ results.

England

32

Isle of Man

1

Ireland


39

Scotland

25

Wales

6

New World: British Isles Surname

65

Total: 168

Of course, these figures do not include all of the British Isles folks in DF13+ subclades, i.e., nearly all the subclades we currently know about.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 02, 2012, 01:40:27 PM
Okay, I did the bean counting for British Isles DF13+ results.

England

32

Isle of Man

1

Ireland


39

Scotland

25

Wales

6

New World: British Isles Surname

65

Total: 168

Of course, these figures do not include all of the British Isles folks in DF13+ subclades, i.e., nearly all the subclades we currently know about.


Scotland has produced the one DF13- DF63+ result thus far, but the man in that case with the Scottish ancestor is himself a Norwegian. He has pretty good reasons for believing his ancestor to be a Scottish seafarer, but it's a bit complicated.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Dubhthach on July 02, 2012, 01:43:11 PM
The Baltic Cluster is DF13+.  Klyosov's analysis indicated it was probably brought to NE Europe by German Jews who fled Germany during the Middle Ages due to persecution.

What's interesting about that is it's often said that Yiddish developed out of Jewish communities originally based in the Rhineland who then spread into Eastern Europe during medieval persecution.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 02, 2012, 01:45:39 PM
Jeez this is exciting stuff.  I was kind of surprised that the significance of this was not commented on yesterday after Mike posted.  Whatever it means (and maybe I am jumping the gun a bit) it is a very strong trend with France and its western border in Spain being the area where its 50-50 and Germany and the isles and Germany are just subsets.  

Here is another possibility based on this.  L21xDF13 was a little more south and western while DF13 occurred on the east of the early L21* world moving on a north and east trajectory.  Maybe we should see them as two parallel lineages, one weighted slightly west and drifting more west and one weighted slightly more east drifting more north and east.. and the origin point most likely where the two lineages both occur i.e. France.  If the sample of L21* ever gets to a decent size where a fair comparison could be made between it and an equal random sample of the massive DF13* group then that would be very interesting.  I would like to see samples of 20 or so for continental countries like France etc before that is done though because one group is huge and the other tiny right now. Mind you if half of all French L21 is L21xDF13 then there is plenty out there if only they would test.  I would think that L21XDF13 could well be the reason that France has the highest variance.  My prediction is DF13 will be younger but not by much.  

Well, with our limited General Fund right now, I have offered a free DF13 test to three men: an R-L21 with Croatian ancestry, an R-L21 from Poland (a Polish citizen with no close matches of any kind), and an R-L21 from Hungary (an actual Hungarian with no close matches of any kind).

If they accept, their results should tell us a little something, anyway.

I wish we could offer free DF13 and DF63 tests to all our continentals.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 02, 2012, 01:48:59 PM
The Baltic Cluster is DF13+.  Klyosov's analysis indicated it was probably brought to NE Europe by German Jews who fled Germany during the Middle Ages due to persecution.

That makes a lot of sense.  Interesting though that the division is not a simple east-west on.  it may be on the continent but its not in terms of Britain and Ireland.  I think though the extreme lack of L21* among the Celtic parts of the isles indicates that the few L21* folk may be later blow-ins in post-Roman and maybe even Norman times.  Nearly all the names seem standard Medieval English names.  

This does of course have some interesting implications.  The Celtic fringe of the isles (and perhaps all the isles in pre-Roman times) only seem to have got DF13 and not L21*.  It will be interesting how the distribution of the two clades looks in France once we have a bigger sample.  It does kind of hint that the isles and German DF13 are in some way derived from the same subset of continental L21 that lacks L21*.  There is an initial impression that L21* might be more western and DF13 more north and eastern looking at all the countries so far.  I realise that they may be parallel clades though and the ancestral/derived aspect vis a vis DF13 may not be a sure-fire indicator of relative age.  However, in other P312 clades it does tend to be that the * clades do have higher variance.  


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 02, 2012, 01:55:32 PM
The Baltic Cluster is DF13+.  Klyosov's analysis indicated it was probably brought to NE Europe by German Jews who fled Germany during the Middle Ages due to persecution.



What's interesting about that is it's often said that Yiddish developed out of Jewish communities originally based in the Rhineland who then spread into Eastern Europe during medieval persecution.


certainly goes against the 'randy allied soldiers' total crazy horse theory for L21 in south-west germany that dates it to 1945!


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 02, 2012, 01:58:59 PM
Jeez this is exciting stuff.  I was kind of surprised that the significance of this was not commented on yesterday after Mike posted.  Whatever it means (and maybe I am jumping the gun a bit) it is a very strong trend with France and its western border in Spain being the area where its 50-50 and Germany and the isles and Germany are just subsets.  

Here is another possibility based on this.  L21xDF13 was a little more south and western while DF13 occurred on the east of the early L21* world moving on a north and east trajectory.  Maybe we should see them as two parallel lineages, one weighted slightly west and drifting more west and one weighted slightly more east drifting more north and east.. and the origin point most likely where the two lineages both occur i.e. France.  If the sample of L21* ever gets to a decent size where a fair comparison could be made between it and an equal random sample of the massive DF13* group then that would be very interesting.  I would like to see samples of 20 or so for continental countries like France etc before that is done though because one group is huge and the other tiny right now. Mind you if half of all French L21 is L21xDF13 then there is plenty out there if only they would test.  I would think that L21XDF13 could well be the reason that France has the highest variance.  My prediction is DF13 will be younger but not by much.  

Well, with our limited General Fund right now, I have offered a free DF13 test to three men: an R-L21 with Croatian ancestry, an R-L21 from Poland (a Polish citizen with no close matches of any kind), and an R-L21 from Hungary (an actual Hungarian with no close matches of any kind).

If they accept, their results should tell us a little something, anyway.

I wish we could offer free DF13 and DF63 tests to all our continentals.

I would reckon on them being DF13, pretty amazed if they were not.  Its a shame we cant have another round of pushing the very sluggish rate French testing.  Unfortunately the recession has made me too poor to sponsor it again!


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 02, 2012, 02:10:59 PM
Jeez this is exciting stuff.  I was kind of surprised that the significance of this was not commented on yesterday after Mike posted.  Whatever it means (and maybe I am jumping the gun a bit) it is a very strong trend with France and its western border in Spain being the area where its 50-50 and Germany and the isles and Germany are just subsets.  

Here is another possibility based on this.  L21xDF13 was a little more south and western while DF13 occurred on the east of the early L21* world moving on a north and east trajectory.  Maybe we should see them as two parallel lineages, one weighted slightly west and drifting more west and one weighted slightly more east drifting more north and east.. and the origin point most likely where the two lineages both occur i.e. France.  If the sample of L21* ever gets to a decent size where a fair comparison could be made between it and an equal random sample of the massive DF13* group then that would be very interesting.  I would like to see samples of 20 or so for continental countries like France etc before that is done though because one group is huge and the other tiny right now. Mind you if half of all French L21 is L21xDF13 then there is plenty out there if only they would test.  I would think that L21XDF13 could well be the reason that France has the highest variance.  My prediction is DF13 will be younger but not by much.  

Well, with our limited General Fund right now, I have offered a free DF13 test to three men: an R-L21 with Croatian ancestry, an R-L21 from Poland (a Polish citizen with no close matches of any kind), and an R-L21 from Hungary (an actual Hungarian with no close matches of any kind).

If they accept, their results should tell us a little something, anyway.

I wish we could offer free DF13 and DF63 tests to all our continentals.

I would reckon on them being DF13, pretty amazed if they were not.  Its a shame we cant have another round of pushing the very sluggish rate French testing.  Unfortunately the recession has made me too poor to sponsor it again!

I don't know. Just for grins I am going to take the contrary view and bet that at least the Hungarian will be DF13- and that probably the Croatian will be, too.

I suspect the Pole, with his lack of any kind of matches (except for the one to another man with his surname), might be DF13-.

I could be wrong, but if I am, it's no big deal. I don't feel confident enough to argue that they will be DF13-, so I have no pride invested in the outcome either way. It's all just for fun at this point.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Dubhthach on July 02, 2012, 02:11:59 PM
The Baltic Cluster is DF13+.  Klyosov's analysis indicated it was probably brought to NE Europe by German Jews who fled Germany during the Middle Ages due to persecution.



What's interesting about that is it's often said that Yiddish developed out of Jewish communities originally based in the Rhineland who then spread into Eastern Europe during medieval persecution.


certainly goes against the 'randy allied soldiers' total crazy horse theory for L21 in south-west germany that dates it to 1945!

Well that whole area was the Roman province of Germania Superior. You only probably see actual "Germanic speakers" taking over the area from the 3rd century onwards. More then likely it was mostly Celtic speaking during the time of Roman expansion under Caesar.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Alemanni_expansion.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Karte_limes.jpg


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 02, 2012, 02:17:22 PM
The Baltic Cluster is DF13+.  Klyosov's analysis indicated it was probably brought to NE Europe by German Jews who fled Germany during the Middle Ages due to persecution.



What's interesting about that is it's often said that Yiddish developed out of Jewish communities originally based in the Rhineland who then spread into Eastern Europe during medieval persecution.


certainly goes against the 'randy allied soldiers' total crazy horse theory for L21 in south-west germany that dates it to 1945!

Well that whole area was the Roman province of Germania Superior. You only probably see actual "Germanic speakers" taking over the area from the 3rd century onwards. More then likely it was mostly Celtic speaking during the time of Roman expansion under Caesar.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Alemanni_expansion.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Karte_limes.jpg


Right, which is also why you have Tacitus writing in the 1st century in his Agricola that Germans had red hair like Caledonians. Now red hair is much less common in Germany than it is in the British Isles.

I know someone will jump on me for saying it, but I think red hair was probably more common among Celts than it was among actual Germanic-speaking "Germans".


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: seferhabahir on July 02, 2012, 02:25:27 PM
The Baltic Cluster is DF13+.  Klyosov's analysis indicated it was probably brought to NE Europe by German Jews who fled Germany during the Middle Ages due to persecution.

What's interesting about that is it's often said that Yiddish developed out of Jewish communities originally based in the Rhineland who then spread into Eastern Europe during medieval persecution.

I am still waiting for a non-Ashkenazi to show up in 1111EE that might indicate a probable Middle Ages conversion event. Until I see one, I'll stay with my theory that this cluster with its rare DYS388=11 is an old offshoot of DF13+ that arrived shortly after P312 and L21 came about (whenever and wherever that happened). I suppose all the non-Jewish lines could have daughtered out, leaving nobody but we few Ashkenazi 1111EE's

This cluster is more than likely descended from someone who lived in the Rhineland 700 years ago, as estimated by Klyosov, but I can't say that it would be a native continental. For many Rhineland Jews, it was a long round-about trip to get there through the Mediterranean and/or Iberia after the destruction of the second temple, and maybe only a handful of R-DF13 made the trip or left enough male sons.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Dubhthach on July 02, 2012, 02:32:47 PM
Right, which is also why you have Tacitus writing in the 1st century in his Agricola that Germans had red hair like Caledonians. Now red hair is much less common in Germany than it is in the British Isles.

I know someone will jump on me for saying it, but I think red hair was probably more common among Celts than it was among actual Germanic-speaking "Germans".

Indeed, now my memory might be hazy on this but I think I recall reading once that the 1st century AD concept of been "German" was anyone who was from East of the Rhine.

Of course there's also the massive Celtic Oppidum discovered at Glauberg about 40km Northeast of Frankfurt am Main (about 90km's North-East of Rhine)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glauberg

http://www.dainst.org/sites/default/files/medien/de/Netconnect_3_Statue_g.jpg



Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 02, 2012, 02:35:06 PM
Our Hungarian has agreed to the DF13 test, and the test has been ordered. I hope we get a fast turnaround on it, and I am hoping the result is the more interesting minus sign right of the lucky number.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on July 02, 2012, 02:55:09 PM
Okay, I did the bean counting for British Isles DF13+ results.

Of course, these figures do not include all of the British Isles folks in DF13+ subclades, i.e., nearly all the subclades we currently know about.

Here is what Mike has as Non-isle DF13+ with Old World, Region and MDKA&O

Quote

Non-Isle DF13+ N=64


N=2
Denmark   NO Baltic Sea   Denmark, Region Sjælland, Lolland, Nakskov
Denmark   NO North Sea   Denmark, Sønderjyllands Amt, Tønder, Buntje-Ballum

N=18
France   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees   France, Languedoc-Roussillon
France   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees   France, Aquitaine, Pyrénées-Atlantiques, Biron
France   EW Fra North & Central   France, Haute-Normandie, Seine-Maritime, Dieppe
France   EW Fra North & Central   France, Basse-Normandie, Avranches
France   EW Fra North & Central   England, Channel Islands (near France)
France   EW Fra North & Central   France (northern)
France   EW Fra North & Central   France, Bassie-Normandie, Manche, Brécey
France   EW Fra North & Central   France, Basse-Normandie, Calvados, Merville-Franceville-Plage
France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Poitou-Charentes
France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, Marans
France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Bretagne, Finistère, Brasparts
France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, La Rochelle
France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Bretagne, Morbihan, Kervignac
France   EW Fra Northeast   France, Lorraine, Moselle, Montbronn
France   EW Fra z unk   France
France   EW Fra z unk   France
France   EW Fra z unk   France
France   EW Fra z unk   France

N=16
Germany   EW Ger Middle   Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate, Kaiserslautern, Otterberg
Germany   EW Ger Middle   Germany, Thuringia, Saalfeld-Rudolstadt, Oberweißbach
Germany   EW Ger Middle   Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate
Germany   EW Ger Middle   Germany, Thuringia, Pozen
Germany   EW Ger Middle   Germany, Hesse, Darmstadt, Eifa
Germany   EW Ger North   Germany, Lower Saxony, Stade, Heinbockel
Germany   EW Ger North   Germany, Lower Saxony, Hanover
Germany   EW Ger North   Germany, Lower Saxony, Hannover
Germany   EW Ger South   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Stuttgart
Germany   EW Ger South   Germany, Bavaria, Franconia, Würzburg
Germany   EW Ger South   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Weil-der-Stadt
Germany   EW Ger z unk   Germany
Germany   EW Ger z unk   Germany
Germany   EW Ger z unk   Germany
Germany   EW Ger z unk   Germany
Germany   EW Ger z unk   Germany

N=1
Italy   EW Ita z unk   Italy

N=3
Luxembourg   EW Low Countries   Luxembourg, Pratz
Netherlands   EW Low Countries   Netherlands
Netherlands   EW Low Countries   Netherlands, South Holland, Wilsveen

N=8
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Rogaland, Hjelmeland
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Vestlandet, Co. Rogaland, Utsira
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Sør-Trøndelag, Gauldal, Melhus
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Nordland Co., Svolvær
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Vestlandet, Møre og Romsdal, Vatne
Norway    NO North Sea   Norway, Nordland, Laksaa

N=9
Portugal   EW Iberian Peninsula   Portugal
Spain   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees   Spain, Basque Country, Biscay, Lea-Artibai, Markina
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain, Cantabria, Matienzo
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain, Andalucía, Cadiz

N=5
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea   Sweden, Jämtland län
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea   Sweden, Kalmar län, Virserum
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea   Sweden
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea   Sweden
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea   Sweden, Kalmar län, Tibbhult

N=1
Switzerland   EW Alpine & Cisalpine   Switzerland, Bern, Oberaargau,
Herzogenbuchsee



Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 02, 2012, 02:59:23 PM
Another interesting thing is two of the French seem to have Breton connections.  One is from Finistere (although the name may originate elsewhere) while the name Madox sounds very Breton to me.  That is very interesting and an eye opener considering L21* has not been discovered yet in the Celtic fringe of Britain or Ireland in what seems like a very large sample tested for DF13.  This again indicates to me that the strength of L21 in Brittany is at least half pre-dating the Breton/Britons arriving.   


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 02, 2012, 03:00:30 PM
Okay, I did the bean counting for British Isles DF13+ results.

Of course, these figures do not include all of the British Isles folks in DF13+ subclades, i.e., nearly all the subclades we currently know about.

Here is what Mike has as Non-isle DF13+ with Old World, Region and MDKA&O

Quote

Non-Isle DF13+ N=64


N=2
Denmark   NO Baltic Sea   Denmark, Region Sjælland, Lolland, Nakskov
Denmark   NO North Sea   Denmark, Sønderjyllands Amt, Tønder, Buntje-Ballum

N=18
France   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees   France, Languedoc-Roussillon
France   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees   France, Aquitaine, Pyrénées-Atlantiques, Biron
France   EW Fra North & Central   France, Haute-Normandie, Seine-Maritime, Dieppe
France   EW Fra North & Central   France, Basse-Normandie, Avranches
France   EW Fra North & Central   England, Channel Islands (near France)
France   EW Fra North & Central   France (northern)
France   EW Fra North & Central   France, Bassie-Normandie, Manche, Brécey
France   EW Fra North & Central   France, Basse-Normandie, Calvados, Merville-Franceville-Plage
France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Poitou-Charentes
France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, Marans
France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Bretagne, Finistère, Brasparts
France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, La Rochelle
France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Bretagne, Morbihan, Kervignac
France   EW Fra Northeast   France, Lorraine, Moselle, Montbronn
France   EW Fra z unk   France
France   EW Fra z unk   France
France   EW Fra z unk   France
France   EW Fra z unk   France

N=16
Germany   EW Ger Middle   Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate, Kaiserslautern, Otterberg
Germany   EW Ger Middle   Germany, Thuringia, Saalfeld-Rudolstadt, Oberweißbach
Germany   EW Ger Middle   Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate
Germany   EW Ger Middle   Germany, Thuringia, Pozen
Germany   EW Ger Middle   Germany, Hesse, Darmstadt, Eifa
Germany   EW Ger North   Germany, Lower Saxony, Stade, Heinbockel
Germany   EW Ger North   Germany, Lower Saxony, Hanover
Germany   EW Ger North   Germany, Lower Saxony, Hannover
Germany   EW Ger South   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Stuttgart
Germany   EW Ger South   Germany, Bavaria, Franconia, Würzburg
Germany   EW Ger South   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Weil-der-Stadt
Germany   EW Ger z unk   Germany
Germany   EW Ger z unk   Germany
Germany   EW Ger z unk   Germany
Germany   EW Ger z unk   Germany
Germany   EW Ger z unk   Germany

N=1
Italy   EW Ita z unk   Italy

N=3
Luxembourg   EW Low Countries   Luxembourg, Pratz
Netherlands   EW Low Countries   Netherlands
Netherlands   EW Low Countries   Netherlands, South Holland, Wilsveen

N=8
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Rogaland, Hjelmeland
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Vestlandet, Co. Rogaland, Utsira
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Sør-Trøndelag, Gauldal, Melhus
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Nordland Co., Svolvær
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Vestlandet, Møre og Romsdal, Vatne
Norway    NO North Sea   Norway, Nordland, Laksaa

N=9
Portugal   EW Iberian Peninsula   Portugal
Spain   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees   Spain, Basque Country, Biscay, Lea-Artibai, Markina
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain, Cantabria, Matienzo
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain, Andalucía, Cadiz

N=5
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea   Sweden, Jämtland län
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea   Sweden, Kalmar län, Virserum
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea   Sweden
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea   Sweden
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea   Sweden, Kalmar län, Tibbhult

N=1
Switzerland   EW Alpine & Cisalpine   Switzerland, Bern, Oberaargau,
Herzogenbuchsee


Where do those figures come from? When I ran the different continental categories for DF13 in my GAP Y-SNP search thingy, I did not get anywhere near that many DF13+ results. Only three Frenchmen came up as having gotten DF13+ results, for example.

Or are these likely DF13+ outcomes based on haplotype?


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on July 02, 2012, 03:10:58 PM
Is it the additional variance in DF13All xSubclades xPredictedSubclades xNull that have produced the older numbers than overall L21All?

MJost

Quote
[/YrsPerGen*   Count   AGE   Generations   YBP   Founder   Generations   YBP
27.5   N=620   DF13xSubPredNull  GA coal=   121.0   3,327.5   GA=   136.7   3,758.8
YrsPerGen*   Count   AGE   Generations   YBP   Founder   Generations   YBP
27.5   N=2647   L21 All GB coal=   109.1   2,999.4   GB=   116.1   3,192.3
                     
59 Markers               
TMRCA      Founder   Generations   YBP         
27.5      GAB=   159.6   4,389.7         
quote]


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 02, 2012, 03:19:54 PM
even with the bigger list like this, the trend is clear.  There is a basic trend there that France and the neighbouring border area of Spain have a much higher proportion of L21* compared to negligible amounts in Britain and in Germanic Europe.  It seems on the continent there is a west-east division of some sort with L21* being more western than L21 (i.e largely DF 13) as a whole.  Its not a simple north south division because a couple of the three French guys are from the far NW of France.  It does seem more of a west-east than north-south division so far on the continent.  However, this is not continued in the isles, where the L21 seems to resemble more the kind of mix we see from Germany/Low Countries eastwards i.e. its almost all DF13.  The total absence of L21xDF13 in the Celtic fringes is very striking and links them more with the eastern part of the L21 world than the west.  This is big news.  These are not subtle trends.  They are massive differences.  


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on July 02, 2012, 03:20:24 PM
Quote

Where do those figures come from? When I ran the different continental categories for DF13 in my GAP Y-SNP search thingy, I did not get anywhere near that many DF13+ results. Only three Frenchmen came up as having gotten DF13+ results, for example.

Or are these likely DF13+ outcomes based on haplotype?

Ah, these are 'Tested' (not predicted) Non-Isle DF13's that MikeW flagged as DF13 in his latest spreadsheet.
MJost

PS these are in the order I listed them in the previous post showing Old World ect. (except I forgot to list Belarus in the country post: f193834 Yurzditsky R-L21/DF13 Belarus   EE East Cont Europe   Belarus, Igumen


f193834   Yurzditsky   R-L21/DF13
f210257   Matrois(Nakskov)   R-L21/DF13
f174552   Gram(Buntje-Ballum)   R-L21/DF13
f78065   Lamphier   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23*
f176268   Gontaut   R-L21/DF13/L96
f198135   Brunet   R-L21/DF13
fN92711   Le Provost   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23*
f21472   Johnston   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
f79112   Grenier   R-L21/DF13/Z253
f150405   Turpin   R-L21/DF13/L513
fE13942   Robert(Lefèvre)   R-L21/DF13
f18917   Brun   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23*
f57411   Fournier   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
fN56523   Le Bras   R-L21/DF13/Z253*
f85844   Bergeron   R-L21/DF13/L513/L706.2/L705.2
fN98545   Le Guennec   R-L21/DF13
f55943   Schneider   R-L21/DF13/Z255/L159
f42087   Via   R-L21/DF13
f158136   Montgomery   R-L21/DF13/DF21*
f191044   Corse   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
fE5371   Bellieres   R-L21/DF13/Z253
f55501   Fortineux   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
f113882   Müller   R-L21/DF13/L513
f152421   Becker   R-L21/DF13
f140503   Krueger   R-L21/DF13
f166617   Wiegand   R-L21/DF13
fN45541   Tiedeman   R-L21/DF13
f208773   Reith   R-L21/DF13
fN47848   Adams   R-L21/DF13/Z255/L159
f115552   Everett   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
f65932   Wigand   R-L21/DF13
f88876   Kepler   R-L21/DF13
f81967   Wentzel   R-L21/DF13
f50389   Brune   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
f156802   Fortineux   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
fN14949   Lominac   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
f24073   zzzUnk(Stroup)   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
yDZRKP   zzzUnknown   R-L21/DF13/L513/L69.5/P66
fN28650   Conrardy   R-L21/DF13/DF21/P314*
fE9807   Kaptein   R-L21/DF13/DF21/Z246*
fN3933   Ammerlaan   R-L21/DF13/L513
fN5924   Måland(Hjelmeland)   R-L21/DF13/DF21/P314*
fN55657   Skaar(Utsira)   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
f162176   Falch(Ølfernes)   R-L21/DF13/Z253**
fN82019   Synnset(Melhus)   R-L21/DF13/Z255/L159
f125806   Duoos   R-L21/DF13/Z255/L159
f198811   Jørgensen(Svolvær)   R-L21/DF13/Z255/L159
f211524   Ulvestadbakken(Vatne)   R-L21/DF13/Z255/L159
fN14161   Olsson(Laksaa)   R-L21/DF13/Z255/L159
f172173   Neves   R-L21/DF13
fN93033   Amuchástegui   R-L21/DF13/Z253*
f58625   Guerra   R-L21/DF13/Z253**
f143916   Rodriguez   R-L21/DF13/Z253
f66434   Davila   R-L21/DF13/Z253*
f46334   Sampedro   R-L21/DF13/Z253*
f197385   Barraza   R-L21/DF13
fN10695   Escalante   R-L21/DF13
f31126   Olazabal   R-L21/DF13
fN5620   Backstrom(Jämtland)   R-L21/DF13
f99735   Svensson(Virserum)   R-L21/DF13
f148856   Forgason   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
f132118   Bankston   R-L21/DF13/Z253
fN29541   Sunesson(Tibbhult)   R-L21/DF13/L513/L706.2/L705.2
fE4785   Gerber   R-L21/DF13/Z253**


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 02, 2012, 03:22:52 PM
Is it the additional variance in DF13All xSubclades xPredictedSubclades xNull that have produced the older numbers than overall L21All?

MJost

Quote
[/YrsPerGen*   Count   AGE   Generations   YBP   Founder   Generations   YBP
27.5   N=620   DF13xSubPredNull  GA coal=   121.0   3,327.5   GA=   136.7   3,758.8
YrsPerGen*   Count   AGE   Generations   YBP   Founder   Generations   YBP
27.5   N=2647   L21 All GB coal=   109.1   2,999.4   GB=   116.1   3,192.3
                     
59 Markers               
TMRCA      Founder   Generations   YBP         
27.5      GAB=   159.6   4,389.7         
quote]

Sorry I dont follow you?


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on July 02, 2012, 03:31:22 PM
Is it the additional variance in DF13All xSubclades xPredictedSubclades xNull that have produced the older numbers than overall L21All?

MJost

Quote
[/YrsPerGen*   Count   AGE   Generations   YBP   Founder   Generations   YBP
27.5   N=620   DF13xSubPredNull  GA coal=   121.0   3,327.5   GA=   136.7   3,758.8
YrsPerGen*   Count   AGE   Generations   YBP   Founder   Generations   YBP
27.5   N=2647   L21 All GB coal=   109.1   2,999.4   GB=   116.1   3,192.3
                     
59 Markers               
TMRCA      Founder   Generations   YBP         
27.5      GAB=   159.6   4,389.7         
quote]

Sorry I dont follow you?

The coalescence AND the Founders age estimate are higher with the DF13All xSubclades xPredictedSubclades xNull guys have a GA coal= 121.0 generations where the L21Guys have GB coal= 109.1 generations.

Just wondering why ten generations more with about four times small group could be the reason but why so much more?

MJost

 


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: seferhabahir on July 02, 2012, 03:48:14 PM
For many Rhineland Jews, it was a long round-about trip to get there through the Mediterranean and/or Iberia after the destruction of the second temple, and maybe only a handful of R-DF13 made the trip or left enough male sons.

Here from www.jewishgen.org on origins of Yiddish and some Rhineland Jews:

"The initial growth of Yiddish began in Western and West-Central Europe. At the turn of the 9th century, Charlemagne (742-814) invited the Jews of southern France and Italy to the Rhineland to encourage economic growth.  Jews had lived in the trading towns along the Rhine River long before, under the Roman Empire.  Charlemagne's initiative caused trade and economic life to develop rapidly in the Rhineland.

Then, in the Early Yiddish Period tenth and eleventh centuries, Jews from northern Italy and northern France, who spoke Jewish Romance languages (Old French or Tsorfatic (Western Laaz), and Old Italian or Italkic (Southern Laaz)) migrated to Rhineland towns along the middle and upper Rhine Valley in an area called Loter (Lotharingia);  this area is close to present-day Lorraine.  It is from these Rhineland Jews that Yiddish originated.  In their new surroundings, they adopted various medieval Germanic dialects of the region, mixing in their earlier Romance and Hebraic/Aramaic elements.  They wrote their new language in Hebrew characters, from right to left.

The collapse of the Babylonian academies took place during this Early Yiddish Period and many Babylonian teachers arrived at this time in Ashkenaz (the name used in Rabbinic literature for Germany), impacting nascent Yiddish."


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 02, 2012, 04:55:25 PM
I am still not sure I understand. Are you basically comparing DF13* against L21*?  L21* is a small group so I suppose we havent got all its variance yet and also the surviving L21* is basically an intraclade which may simply mean  only some lines with with a more recent common ancestor have survived.  Intraclade is always a very risky way of deducing anything IMO.  The way I look at it is there are areas with both L21* and Df13* in significant numbers and there are areas that near enough only have DF13*  All we know for sure is that they are different lines and for some reason only some areas have both lines and there does seem to be a strong hint that there is a geographical pattern to this with France and the Pyrennees having a good mix of both while the continental areas to the east and the isles are very dominanted by DF13*.  The significance to me is that some areas have both and other areas pretty well only have DF13*.  They may be parallel lines butt one thing is clear - L21* is not descended from DF13* and that is pretty significant when you consider that that is nearly all there is in Germany, northern Europe and the isles (including even the remoter areas of the Celtic fringe).  The one clear conclusion is that the significant L21* (L21xDF13) on the continent is not descended from the large DF13* group which is pretty well all there is in northern Europe and the isles.  It doesnt mean that DF13* is descended from the surviving L21* lines in France and the Pyrenees but it does rule out the opposite.  I think that is big news because there are those who look too much to frequency and have tended to see L21 on the continent as coming from the isles.  Of course there are likely isles-derived L21 on the continent who have give-away isles type downstream subclades but that is a different issue from the root period of L21. Basically there is a group of L21* people in France and immediately west who simply cant be descended from the large block of Df13 L21 people in the isles and northern Europe.  These L21xDF13 people can only be derived from other L21XDF13 people.  I think that is a very important realisation and I dont think coalescence or intraclade variance is that important as after all these are all end-lines.  


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 03, 2012, 06:39:44 AM
I double-checked the DF13 results. What I listed in my posts above is correct. Only six Frenchmen total from the France category have DF13 results, and three of those are negative. I actually went through the France category member by member and checked it. Those six are the only DF13 test results: three positives, three negatives.

The other figures I listed in my posts are correct, too. Very few continentals had ordered DF13 as of yesterday.

Apparently the difference is that I only looked at the R-L21* geographic categories, not the DF13+ subclades (which disclaimer I mentioned in one or more of my posts above). Obviously a Frenchman or a Spaniard or whoever who is DF23+ or Z253+ (or whatever) is DF13+, as well.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 03, 2012, 06:42:52 AM
Our R-L21* Polish candidate has agreed to be tested for DF13, and the test has been ordered.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 03, 2012, 07:57:13 AM
Our Hungarian has agreed to the DF13 test, and the test has been ordered. I hope we get a fast turnaround on it, and I am hoping the result is the more interesting minus sign right of the lucky number.

Our R-L21* Polish candidate has agreed to be tested for DF13, and the test has been ordered.

It's too bad these doggoned tests take so long! It would really be nice if we had the results by the end of the week, but you know that's not going to happen.

I hope our Croatian accepts the DF13 test offer.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 03, 2012, 12:20:59 PM
Our Hungarian has agreed to the DF13 test, and the test has been ordered. I hope we get a fast turnaround on it, and I am hoping the result is the more interesting minus sign right of the lucky number.

Our R-L21* Polish candidate has agreed to be tested for DF13, and the test has been ordered.

.

It's too bad these doggoned tests take so long! It would really be nice if we had the results by the end of the week, but you know that's not going to happen.

I hope our Croatian accepts the DF13 test offer.

Looks to me like the French (a bit like when the random L21 testing was done) is going to be the best return on money when seeking L21* people.  A 50-50 chance and probably the only way that a decent amount of L21* will be built up so that some sort of reasonable sample exists to calculate variance of L21*.  I think right now it would be futile and I suspect the English L21* may be a Medieval subset of NW French anyway and so not likely to help with variance


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on July 03, 2012, 04:19:12 PM

I wish we could offer free DF13 and DF63 tests to all our continentals.

Ok, I put out a call for donations for Continental DF13 and DF63 testing on the Yahoo L21 forum. Your already have enought for up to four SNP tests.

MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on July 03, 2012, 06:08:06 PM
Steve you now up to 176 bucks (for six SNP orders) for testing Continental DF13 and DF63's.

Hope you are starting culling your list of candidates.

MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 03, 2012, 06:19:22 PM
Well I would throw the money at France because it looks like there will be a good return of L21* from the DF13 tests while the results so far would suggest there would be a catastrophic waste of funds with only extremely rare L21* coming through if you tested Germany, Scandinavia etc.  I think going for the French is the only way to get the total of L21* up to useful levels for analysis. 


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 03, 2012, 06:21:24 PM
Just a thought but the few Italian L21s would be very interesting.  They could be from sources in either France or the south Germanic speaking areas. 


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 03, 2012, 07:58:54 PM
Just a thought but the few Italian L21s would be very interesting.  They could be from sources in either France or the south Germanic speaking areas. 
I have said many times in the past that the only Italian cases interesting would be those of Argiedude, if he isn’t a recent link with Kellaway (but he didn’t respond to my requests to test some close relative in Italy) and of Soncina, if he is actually a R-L21. The others are mostly of recent French origin, etc. Anyway the very few Italian R-L21-s (if we are able to demonstrate that they are Italian ones from some centuries) do demonstrate that the migration from North-West or Central Europe to Italy simply doesn’t exist.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 04, 2012, 07:33:22 AM
Just a thought but the few Italian L21s would be very interesting.  They could be from sources in either France or the south Germanic speaking areas.  
I have said many times in the past that the only Italian cases interesting would be those of Argiedude, if he isn’t a recent link with Kellaway (but he didn’t respond to my requests to test some close relative in Italy) and of Soncina, if he is actually a R-L21. The others are mostly of recent French origin, etc. Anyway the very few Italian R-L21-s (if we are able to demonstrate that they are Italian ones from some centuries) do demonstrate that the migration from North-West or Central Europe to Italy simply doesn’t exist.

That is a good thought, Gioiello.

I think I will offer argiedude a DF13 test. He does have one of the weirdest L21 haplotypes ever.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 04, 2012, 07:42:44 AM
Just a thought but the few Italian L21s would be very interesting.  They could be from sources in either France or the south Germanic speaking areas.  
I have said many times in the past that the only Italian cases interesting would be those of Argiedude, if he isn’t a recent link with Kellaway (but he didn’t respond to my requests to test some close relative in Italy) and of Soncina, if he is actually a R-L21. The others are mostly of recent French origin, etc. Anyway the very few Italian R-L21-s (if we are able to demonstrate that they are Italian ones from some centuries) do demonstrate that the migration from North-West or Central Europe to Italy simply doesn’t exist.

That is a good thought, Gioiello.

I think I will offer argiedude a DF13 test. He does have one of the weirdest L21 haplotypes ever.


Well, so much for that. My email to him bounced, and it was the only email address I had for him. The guy has a mania for privacy, so he may be hard to find again.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 04, 2012, 07:57:39 AM
Well I would throw the money at France because it looks like there will be a good return of L21* from the DF13 tests while the results so far would suggest there would be a catastrophic waste of funds with only extremely rare L21* coming through if you tested Germany, Scandinavia etc.  I think going for the French is the only way to get the total of L21* up to useful levels for analysis. 

I will take a look at the French. My thinking in offering the Hungarian and the Croatian the test was that, if, on the off chance, L21 was actually born on the P312 route north via the Danube, some DF13- results there might give us some indication of that. Of course, we have precious little Danubian L21 to work with, but it might be worth a shot.

I realize I could be totally off in my thinking on that, but I thought it was worth testing our most extreme easterners, especially those with no close matches of any kind. That is also why I would like to snag argiedude with a DF13 test, although his origin is Italy, which is not so far to the east, and not anywhere near the Danube.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 04, 2012, 10:11:05 AM
I realize I could be totally off in my thinking on that, but I thought it was worth testing our most extreme easterners, especially those with no close matches of any kind. That is also why I would like to snag argiedude with a DF13 test, although his origin is Italy, which is not so far to the east, and not anywhere near the Danube.

As I have said before, he never responded to my letters about Kellaway, desaparecidos, etc. I have seen that he writes sometimes on Rootsweb, and I think he is living and studying in Great Britain now. Unfortunately neither Soncina answered my letters.
About Argiedude perhaps it is more likely to contact the Kellaways and test them for DF13.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 04, 2012, 07:18:55 PM
We have a second Catalonian (Pais) testing for DF13 now. Since one of the DF13- guys is Catalonian, it will be interesting to see how Pais comes out.

One of our Normans (St. Jorre dit Sergerie) has also ordered DF13.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 04, 2012, 07:34:14 PM
Well, I finally broke down and ordered DF13 for myself (paid for by me, naturally).

That ought to answer the burning question of whether or not DF13 was present on the eastern shore of the Ohio River in the Northern Panhandle of West Virginia in 1804. :-)


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on July 05, 2012, 02:00:18 PM
I have taken some time over the last few days and worked up a data file cantaining
620 DF13+ Xsubclades, XPredicted subclades, XNulls. Running them through McGee's Utility

- Infinite allele mutation model is used
- Average mutation rate: 0.00172844 (MarkoH-67)
- Probability is 68.27% that the TMRCA is no longer than indicated
- Average generaton: 30 years

DF13+ has TMRCA of 450 years from L21 modal.

Modal-DF13x            13   24   14   10   11   14   12   12   12   13   13   
16   17   9   10   11   11   25   15   19   30   15   15   17   17   11   
11   19   23   15   15   18   17   37   38   12   12   11   9   15   16   
8   10   10   8   10   10   12   23   23   16   10   12   12   15   8   
12   22   20   13   12   11   13   11   11   12   12

I created a new Phylogram of these 620 using the McGee output setting above.
I am labeling the edges with the over 100 known remaining DF13x varieties.

MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 05, 2012, 07:15:52 PM
Well, I figure I'll probably be DF13+. If so, I'm pretty much stuck in the same boat
I'm in now: trying to figure out which new SNP to test for (I'm already DF21- and DF23-).

If, on the other hand, I get lucky and score a DF13- (funny to put it that way, isn't it?),
then I'll just order a DF63 test. There's no guarantee a DF13- result always means a
DF63+ result, but right now it's the only choice. It makes things easy.

If I get a DF13+ result (which seems likely), I'll probably follow up with Z253 and see
how that goes.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 06, 2012, 08:29:17 AM
Here is what we have with regard to pending continental DF13 testing thus far.

Pending DF13 Tests


France - 6

Spain - 4

Germany - 3

Norway - 3

Poland - 2

Czech Republic - 1

Hungary - 1

Netherlands - 1

I'm trying to recruit some more, so the numbers may change.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 06, 2012, 12:29:04 PM
Here is what we have with regard to pending continental DF13 testing thus far.

Pending DF13 Tests


France - 6

Spain - 4

Germany - 3

Norway - 3

Poland - 2

Czech Republic - 1

Hungary - 1

Netherlands - 1

I'm trying to recruit some more, so the numbers may change.



Make that five from Spain now.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: MHammers on July 06, 2012, 12:57:34 PM
Here is what we have with regard to pending continental DF13 testing thus far.

Pending DF13 Tests


France - 6

Spain - 4

Germany - 3

Norway - 3

Poland - 2

Czech Republic - 1

Hungary - 1

Netherlands - 1

I'm trying to recruit some more, so the numbers may change.



Make that five from Spain now.

Nice work!  This should be very helpful in determining direction of L21 movement.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Dubhthach on July 06, 2012, 03:26:03 PM
Hopefully we'll get a good set of results. Obviously it would be nice also if by increasing awareness we end up "flushing out" another DF63+, after all we just need two (with GD greater then 10) to get it on ISOGG tree.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on July 06, 2012, 04:55:02 PM
MikeW, if you could update your spread sheet for Thomas K who is now DF13+ and previously was L526?

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/message/8629

MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on July 06, 2012, 05:20:02 PM
Hopefully we'll get a good set of results. Obviously it would be nice also if by increasing awareness we end up "flushing out" another DF63+, after all we just need two (with GD greater then 10) to get it on ISOGG tree.

Hi all,

According to my notes, we have 7 DF13- people in the L21 project pending a DF63 result. Most are from last weeks batch. There is also a person that Mike has placed in the same variety as me (DF63+) who has ordered DF13 and DF63.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 06, 2012, 05:50:11 PM
MikeW, if you could update your spread sheet for Thomas K who is now DF13+ and previously was L526?
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/message/8629

Will do.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 07, 2012, 07:44:46 AM
Hopefully we'll get a good set of results. Obviously it would be nice also if by increasing awareness we end up "flushing out" another DF63+, after all we just need two (with GD greater then 10) to get it on ISOGG tree.

Hi all,

According to my notes, we have 7 DF13- people in the L21 project pending a DF63 result. Most are from last weeks batch. There is also a person that Mike has placed in the same variety as me (DF63+) who has ordered DF13 and DF63.

-Kai


Hi, Kai. Welcome!

What you wrote above is correct.

All three of our French DF13- guys and our Catalonian-Spanish DF13- guy have ordered DF63.

Three of the DF13- guys with English surnames have ordered it as well, and we have one man, with y-dna origin in Portugal, who has ordered DF63 without first having a DF13 result, positive or negative.

Things should get interesting here in about a month. Wish we didn't have to wait so long!



Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 07, 2012, 09:45:38 AM
Here is what we have with regard to pending continental DF13 testing thus far.

Pending DF13 Tests


France - 6

Spain - 4

Germany - 3

Norway - 3

Poland - 2

Czech Republic - 1

Hungary - 1

Netherlands - 1

I'm trying to recruit some more, so the numbers may change.


That, together with the results we already have, should go a good way to confirming the pattern that is already strongly suggested by the results to date. 


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Jdean on July 07, 2012, 10:16:23 AM
That, together with the results we already have, should go a good way to confirming the pattern that is already strongly suggested by the results to date. 

And hopefully another DF63+ result is what FTDNA are waiting for before updating the haplotree !!


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on July 07, 2012, 02:00:52 PM
MikeW, if you could update your spread sheet for Thomas K who is now DF13+ and previously was L526?
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/message/8629

Will do.

Thanks.

Also would you look at variety  25911 with 1130-A-2 (and 1130-A-1 and -A's) and see if 25911 should be 1130-A-2 and the current 1130-A-2 should be the 1130-A-2-A?

Thanks.

MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on July 08, 2012, 06:52:27 AM
Things should get interesting here in about a month. Wish we didn't have to wait so long!

Luckily, SNP results usually come back long before their lab date, but I wouldn't mind having the results today.
I'm currently trying to get any of the three Brooms from Mike's variety X13-913 to test. That's the variety with Roma in it. So far no reply from any of the Broom project admins and the two I've contacted through ysearch. I will keep trying though. It seems they have many potential DF13- kits if the variety is valid. I find the names "Roma" and "Broom/Broome" interestingly similar, but I do not know the history of either names, so I guess that would fall into the category of speculation.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 08, 2012, 07:59:14 AM
It would be nice if the results came back in a couple of weeks. My own test hasn't even gone to the lab yet due to the July 4th holiday here in the USA. It's still sitting in "Pending Shipment to the Lab", along with several other DF13 tests.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 08, 2012, 09:04:15 AM
Another Frenchman just ordered a DF13 test. That brings the total number of pending French DF13 tests to 7.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: razyn on July 08, 2012, 10:46:58 AM
I find the names "Roma" and "Broom/Broome" interestingly similar, but I do not know the history of either names, so I guess that would fall into the category of speculation.

Did these Broomes live in or near Wales?  A lot of names get a B or P added at the beginning, left over from the patronymic prefix ab- or ap- in Welsh (e.g. "ab Roma," son of a Roma or Gypsy, would be pronounced "Broom" in, say, Gloucestershire or Monmouthshire).  Just a little grist for your speculation; it could be entirely mistaken.  But so are about half the folk etymologies one reads in guides to the meaning of names.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on July 08, 2012, 12:05:20 PM
I find the names "Roma" and "Broom/Broome" interestingly similar, but I do not know the history of either names, so I guess that would fall into the category of speculation.

Did these Broomes live in or near Wales?  A lot of names get a B or P added at the beginning, left over from the patronymic prefix ab- or ap- in Welsh (e.g. "ab Roma," son of a Roma or Gypsy, would be pronounced "Broom" in, say, Gloucestershire or Monmouthshire).  Just a little grist for your speculation; it could be entirely mistaken.  But so are about half the folk etymologies one reads in guides to the meaning of names.

Thank you razyn.
From what I can see they have listed UK, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland as paternal origins, but nearly all have listed their most distant paternal ancestor as from the USA. If I was the admin of that project, I would most definitively get at least one member to test for DF13. That way, they would be one step closer to not having me doing guesswork about their surname origin. ;-)

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Jdean on July 08, 2012, 12:34:09 PM
I find the names "Roma" and "Broom/Broome" interestingly similar, but I do not know the history of either names, so I guess that would fall into the category of speculation.

Did these Broomes live in or near Wales?  A lot of names get a B or P added at the beginning, left over from the patronymic prefix ab- or ap- in Welsh (e.g. "ab Roma," son of a Roma or Gypsy, would be pronounced "Broom" in, say, Gloucestershire or Monmouthshire).  Just a little grist for your speculation; it could be entirely mistaken.  But so are about half the folk etymologies one reads in guides to the meaning of names.

Ab tended to come before names that started with vowels hence Bowen and Bevan as apposed to Powell (from Howell of course not Owl :) and Prichard.

More often or not you can see the Christian name inside of Welsh surnames and personally I don't think this is an example of one.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 08, 2012, 05:13:57 PM
Another Spaniard has ordered a DF13 test. That makes six DF13 tests pending for Spain.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 11, 2012, 09:51:16 AM
Here is an update on pending continental DF13 testing thus far.

Pending DF13 Tests


France - 7

Spain - 6

Germany - 5

Norway - 3

Poland - 2

Czech Republic - 1

Hungary - 1

Netherlands - 1

Portugal - 1

I still have never heard from our Croatian guy, one way or another. I was really hoping to get him tested for DF13.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 11, 2012, 02:42:33 PM
Here is an update on pending continental DF13 testing thus far.

Pending DF13 Tests


France - 7

Spain - 6

Germany - 5

Norway - 3

Poland - 2

Czech Republic - 1

Hungary - 1

Netherlands - 1

Portugal - 1

I still have never heard from our Croatian guy, one way or another. I was really hoping to get him tested for DF13.

There should be pretty strong patterns when that little lot are added to the ones we already have. 


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Heber on July 11, 2012, 03:13:19 PM
Another Spaniard has ordered a DF13 test. That makes six DF13 tests pending for Spain.

Rich,
How can I view the pending list. I cannot even see my own place in the queue.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 11, 2012, 10:08:57 PM
Another Spaniard has ordered a DF13 test. That makes six DF13 tests pending for Spain.

Rich,
How can I view the pending list. I cannot even see my own place in the queue.


Only project admins can view the project's Pending Lab Results page.

On your own myFTDNA pages home page you can scroll down to "Pending Lab Results". Click on "Check Progress" to see what tests you have ordered and when they're due.

My own DF13 test is in Batch 472 and due 27 August 2012. I hope the result comes in sooner than that!


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: secherbernard on July 12, 2012, 08:02:33 AM
My own DF13 test is in batch 467 and due 25 july 2012. It is weird that some DF13 results came very fastly, and that mine is so long...


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Peter M on July 12, 2012, 12:36:08 PM
My own DF13 test is in batch 467 and due 25 july 2012. It is weird that some DF13 results came very fastly, and that mine is so long...
The general pattern for most SNP tests is that the "guaranteed delivery date" is some six weeks after "batch day" (the first wednesday after your order). In practice, results might be delivered (far) more quickly (sometimes a few days) in individual cases.

E.g. if Thomas Krahn is personally interested in the specific case. $:-)

On the other hand, if Thomas doesn't like you, then .......   $:-)


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 12, 2012, 12:57:56 PM
My own DF13 test is in Batch 472 and due 27 August 2012. I hope the result comes in sooner than that!
Also my upgrade to 111 is there.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 12, 2012, 01:32:47 PM
My own DF13 test is in Batch 472 and due 27 August 2012. I hope the result comes in sooner than that!
Also my upgrade to 111 is there.

Great! this summer sale is going to help us understand this a little better.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: OConnor on July 12, 2012, 01:51:38 PM
I think I'll order the 111 upgrade.

Perhaps it will come in handy sometime.


EDIT: I just ordered it.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on July 13, 2012, 02:57:41 PM
I see Meadows 94428 came back DF13-. In my Feb '12 phlyogram he fell closely to N80403   Bishop

94428   Meadows   R-L21   zzCountry   zzRegion   zzzUnkOrigin   0   6   1313 as he was a GD6 from

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10544.msg132726#msg13272

SS ID   Surname   Hg   Old World Country   Region   MDKAO   GD @27 Slow   GD @67   Variety   
N80403   Bishop   R-L21*   England   IS Eng London   England, London   0   0   1313   
94428   Meadows   R-L21   zzCountry   zzRegion   zzzUnkOrigin   0   6   1313   
158189   Manion   R-L21   Ireland   IS Ire z unk   Ireland   3   16   1121   

Noting DF13- is older than DF13+, and also branching off prior to the Bishop/Meadows branch is
158189  Manion Paterick Manion 1800 R1b1a2a1a1b4 R-L21 L1-, L21+, L23+, M222-, M37-, P312+, P66-, U106-.

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=7991.msg115290#msg115290
Kit #158189
1. Paterick Manion, b. 1791 Ballyhaunnis, Co. Mayo, Ireland,  d. 6 Feb 1862 Danbury, CT.
2. Patrick Manion, b. 1839 Ballyhaunis, Co. Mayo, Ireland,  d. 20 April 1868 Danbury, CT.
3. William Stephen Manion, b. 9 Apr1865, d. Danbury, CT.
4. William Cecil Manion, b. 30 Jul 1916 Bethel, CT.

Is 158189   Manion  testing for DF13? As he might consider DF13?

MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: secherbernard on July 14, 2012, 02:50:31 AM
Darke (N72406) and Gery (N66966) came back DF13- DF63+, so there are three DF63+ now.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Jdean on July 14, 2012, 06:25:53 AM
Darke (N72406) and Gery (N66966) came back DF13- DF63+, so there are three DF63+ now.

Great, that's a pretty good success rate too !!

Hopefully FTDNA will get up off their derriere and update the tree now :)


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 14, 2012, 06:39:01 AM
I wish the DF13 breakdown were a little sharper and more distinct.

One of our Germans and two of our Frenchmen got DF13+ results yesterday.

No new DF13- results.

I guess it's too much to hope for something that would make a clear distinction between L21 in the Isles and L21 on the Continent. After all, the Isles are just an insular extension of the European Continent, anyway: just a short boat ride away.

Maybe we'll start to see something as more DF13 results come in. I'm really curious to see how our Hungarian comes out.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on July 14, 2012, 06:47:12 AM
Hopefully FTDNA will get up off their derriere and update the tree now :)

Let's hope we get DF63 on ISOGG first! ;-)

From what I can tell, it should now be ready to be added. Not many tests were needed. We have:
N80403 - Bishop: DF13-, DF63-
Several: DF13+, DF63-
191950 - Lowden: DF13-. DF63+
All these are L21+ (L459+, Z245+).

Genetic distance between the three known DF63+ kits is:
Darke -> 26 -> Gery -> 26 -> Lowden -> 23 -> Darke.
That should cover the requirements regarding distance and number of surnames.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: jerome72 on July 14, 2012, 07:23:44 AM
We currently have only 2 DF13- and DF63- and there are both English! if this trend continues, it's a little surprise!


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 14, 2012, 07:49:03 AM
We currently have only 2 DF13- and DF63- and there are both English! if this trend continues, it's a little surprise!

That's a good point!



Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on July 14, 2012, 11:21:50 AM
Just a thought but the few Italian L21s would be very interesting.  They could be from sources in either France or the south Germanic speaking areas.  
I have said many times in the past that the only Italian cases interesting would be those of Argiedude, if he isn’t a recent link with Kellaway (but he didn’t respond to my requests to test some close relative in Italy) and of Soncina, if he is actually a R-L21. The others are mostly of recent French origin, etc. Anyway the very few Italian R-L21-s (if we are able to demonstrate that they are Italian ones from some centuries) do demonstrate that the migration from North-West or Central Europe to Italy simply doesn’t exist.

That is a good thought, Gioiello.

I think I will offer argiedude a DF13 test. He does have one of the weirdest L21 haplotypes ever.


Well, so much for that. My email to him bounced, and it was the only email address I had for him. The guy has a mania for privacy, so he may be hard to find again.
You tried his hotmail email account?


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Heber on July 14, 2012, 11:39:07 AM
Another Spaniard has ordered a DF13 test. That makes six DF13 tests pending for Spain.

Rich,
How can I view the pending list. I cannot even see my own place in the queue.


Thanks. My result is expected 8/27.

Only project admins can view the project's Pending Lab Results page.

On your own myFTDNA pages home page you can scroll down to "Pending Lab Results". Click on "Check Progress" to see what tests you have ordered and when they're due.

My own DF13 test is in Batch 472 and due 27 August 2012. I hope the result comes in sooner than that!


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 15, 2012, 06:47:12 AM
Just a thought but the few Italian L21s would be very interesting.  They could be from sources in either France or the south Germanic speaking areas.  
I have said many times in the past that the only Italian cases interesting would be those of Argiedude, if he isn’t a recent link with Kellaway (but he didn’t respond to my requests to test some close relative in Italy) and of Soncina, if he is actually a R-L21. The others are mostly of recent French origin, etc. Anyway the very few Italian R-L21-s (if we are able to demonstrate that they are Italian ones from some centuries) do demonstrate that the migration from North-West or Central Europe to Italy simply doesn’t exist.

That is a good thought, Gioiello.

I think I will offer argiedude a DF13 test. He does have one of the weirdest L21 haplotypes ever.


Well, so much for that. My email to him bounced, and it was the only email address I had for him. The guy has a mania for privacy, so he may be hard to find again.
You tried his hotmail email account?

Yeah, two different hotmail addresses.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 18, 2012, 08:20:23 AM
Yesterday witnessed yet more DF13+ results: one from France (with a German surname and ancestry in Alsace), one from Spain, one from the Czech Republic, and one from Norway. The one from Norway appears to have the Scots Modal haplotype (or close) and lots of fairly close Scottish matches at 67 markers.

One thing we can say for sure within L21: DF13 is big.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: jerome72 on July 18, 2012, 11:20:06 AM
Yesterday witnessed yet more DF13+ results: one from France (with a German surname and ancestry in Alsace), one from Spain, one from the Czech Republic, and one from Norway. The one from Norway appears to have the Scots Modal haplotype (or close) and lots of fairly close Scottish matches at 67 markers.

One thing we can say for sure within L21: DF13 is big.

The tests DF13 for the European of the center and east are going to be interressant.
For my part, I think that L21 was born and it is developed in France.
The continuation will say it to us, maybe...


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 18, 2012, 12:01:08 PM
Yesterday witnessed yet more DF13+ results: one from France (with a German surname and ancestry in Alsace), one from Spain, one from the Czech Republic, and one from Norway. The one from Norway appears to have the Scots Modal haplotype (or close) and lots of fairly close Scottish matches at 67 markers.

One thing we can say for sure within L21: DF13 is big.

The tests DF13 for the European of the center and east are going to be interressant.
For my part, I think that L21 was born and it is developed in France.
The continuation will say it to us, maybe...

Well I would agree.  It also looks like its the western half of France and also the Pyrennees.  I would still feel L21 originated as one guy passing from the upper reaches of Loire in SE France (somewhere like Saint-Ettiene and heading up the river as far as the Atlantic then spreading from there up and down the Atlantic coast of France.  It may have moved into the Seine system too That is how I would tend to interpret the totality of the evidence we have although there are other alternatives such as it moving alonng the Rhine then into the Mosselle and then into the northern French river systems.     


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 18, 2012, 10:00:57 PM
Some of his descendants would become Voyageurs in what is now Canada. That is the image that popped into my head when you spoke of "one guy passing from the upper reaches of Loire in SE France (somewhere like Saint-Ettiene) and heading up the river as far as the Atlantic", and, since a fair number of French-Canadians are R-L21, it seemed appropriate.

Anyway, I agree with what you and Jerome wrote.

What is especially heartening is that the DF13 results are still coming in well ahead of schedule.

Now I am daring to believe that mine might even be in by the end of this week. I expect to see a plus sign, but you never know.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on July 19, 2012, 04:12:34 AM
DF63 has been added to the ISOGG tree as "R1b1a2a1a1b3b". :-)

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: OConnor on July 19, 2012, 06:09:27 AM
Some of his descendants would become Voyageurs in what is now Canada. That is the image that popped into my head when you spoke of "one guy passing from the upper reaches of Loire in SE France (somewhere like Saint-Ettiene) and heading up the river as far as the Atlantic", and, since a fair number of French-Canadians are R-L21, it seemed appropriate.

Anyway, I agree with what you and Jerome wrote.

What is especially heartening is that the DF13 results are still coming in well ahead of schedule.

Now I am daring to believe that mine might even be in by the end of this week. I expect to see a plus sign, but you never know.

Does that idea suggest most subclades of L21 were hatched in France? I'm not totally convinced of that. I am still holding out for an L21 home east of France.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 19, 2012, 06:22:01 AM
DF63 has been added to the ISOGG tree as "R1b1a2a1a1b3b". :-)

-Kai

Cool! That's quick work.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 19, 2012, 06:54:28 AM

Does that idea suggest most subclades of L21 were hatched in France? I'm not totally convinced of that. I am still holding out for an L21 home east of France.

I think L21 was probably born in France, but accounting for all of its subclades is another matter.

L21 haplotype variance also suggests that L21 is oldest in France, but I must say I have far less faith in haplotype variance than I used to. A desirable destination, like North America, for example, can receive so much input from various regions in which a haplogroup is found that its variance becomes inflated. Honestly, I suspect that might be the case with the British Isles (including Ireland) and L21. L21 there appears older than it should, although it is still younger looking than in France, because the British Isles were a magnet for L21 from the Continent. That is my guess, anyway.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Richard Rocca on July 19, 2012, 08:14:44 AM

Does that idea suggest most subclades of L21 were hatched in France? I'm not totally convinced of that. I am still holding out for an L21 home east of France.

I think L21 was probably born in France, but accounting for all of its subclades is another matter.

L21 haplotype variance also suggests that L21 is oldest in France, but I must say I have far less faith in haplotype variance than I used to. A desirable destination, like North America, for example, can receive so much input from various regions in which a haplogroup is found that its variance becomes inflated. Honestly, I suspect that might be the case with the British Isles (including Ireland) and L21. L21 there appears older than it should, although it is still younger looking than in France, because the British Isles were a magnet for L21 from the Continent. That is my guess, anyway.

The last time I ran variance using Mike's spreadsheet, L21 "All" showed highest variance in Ireland. Does that change when downstream markers are taken into account?


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 19, 2012, 08:17:49 AM

Does that idea suggest most subclades of L21 were hatched in France? I'm not totally convinced of that. I am still holding out for an L21 home east of France.

I think L21 was probably born in France, but accounting for all of its subclades is another matter.

L21 haplotype variance also suggests that L21 is oldest in France, but I must say I have far less faith in haplotype variance than I used to. A desirable destination, like North America, for example, can receive so much input from various regions in which a haplogroup is found that its variance becomes inflated. Honestly, I suspect that might be the case with the British Isles (including Ireland) and L21. L21 there appears older than it should, although it is still younger looking than in France, because the British Isles were a magnet for L21 from the Continent. That is my guess, anyway.

The last time I ran variance using Mike's spreadsheet, L21 "All" showed highest variance in Ireland. Does that change when downstream markers are taken into account?

I'm not sure. Last I heard from Mike, L21 variance was highest in France. Klyosov said the same thing, but it's been awhile.

Thus far, Ireland has been solidly DF13+: not a single DF13- result.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 19, 2012, 08:21:40 AM
I just bumped into a guy in my "cluster" (such as it is) who has already tested DF13+: Cooper, kit 57563, Ysearch 4BN3G. We're 11 off at 67 markers, but we share the same off-modal values (or most of them, anyway).

So now I am pretty sure I'll be DF13+.

I'm a little disappointed. I was kind of hoping for a DF13- result, since that is less common.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on July 19, 2012, 01:59:11 PM
ok 2nd posting try.

(edit: ok i just realized these number are from 37 marker panel using 22only. I will try and rerun them at 67.)

DF13+ Xsubclades Xpredicted Subclade 67 markers
 
If we agree that L21 is about 3.7K to 4K YBP and, since I ran the DF13+xSubclades and XPredicted Subclades in Gen111T,  the age difference was about 450 yrs@30 yr gen's,.
 
And considering that the Modal of L21 and DF13+x's has the same modal with only DYS 449=30 using 111 markers set with N=47. The mean HT for this set had 464c=-1, CYDa=+1, 413a=-1, 481+1 and 712=+1 all fast expect 413a which is medium speed mutator.
 
In the DF13+xSubcladesXPredicted Subclades using the 67 marker (calc on 59 37 Markers) set of Hts, the off modals are DYS391=-1 (Most by the 60 or so Scots and 1511-A's other wise would be modal), so I split the list in to four camps,  1) Scots only, 2) 1511's, 3) 9919's and 4) all others.
 
Cluster 1) Scots Only n=29
DYS391=10 + -1
389ii-i=17 +1
458=18 +1
GataH4=12 +1
YCAIIb=24 +1
456=15 -1
531=12 +1
413a=22 -1
444=11 -1

Cluster 2) 1511's Only n=17
DYS391=10 + -1
385b=15 +1
439=11 -1
447=24 -1
449=29 -1
456=15 -1
CDYa=35 -1
442=13 +1
565=11 -1
 
Cluster 3) 9919's Only n=13
459b=9 -1
YCAIIb=19 -4*
CDYa=36 -1
CDYb=40 +2
640=12 +1
 
Cluster 4) All others n=39  has three off modals from L21
DYS449=29
464c=16
CDYb 39

Using Gen111T calculations
 
Clusters Main Geo locations
1) 1030's Scotland ---- TMRCA 65 Gen
2) 1511's Ire-Munst ---- TMRCA 45 Gen
3) 9919's Eng-Ulstr ---- TMRCA 78 Gen
4) Remaining HT'ss Isles =
     UK mix England, Ireland-Ulster, Scotland, Wales ---- TMRCA 110 Gen
 
1) 1030's Scotland
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=29 DF13> 1030-A GA coal= 65.1 1,952.2 GA= 74.2 2,227.3
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=2647 L21 All GB coal= 109.1 3,272.1 GB= 116.1 3,482.5
                
59 37 Markers      
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 137.2 4,117.0    

 
2) 1511's Ire-Munst
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=16 DF13> 1511 GA coal= 45.0 1,351.0 GA= 50.9 1,525.6
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=2647 L21 All GB coal= 109.1 3,272.1 GB= 116.1 3,482.5
                
59 37 Markers   
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 122.1 3,661.8    

 
3) 9919's Eng-Ulstr
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=13 DF13> 9919 GA coal= 78.4 2,351.0 GA= 106.9 3,206.5
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=2647 L21 All GB coal= 109.1 3,272.1 GB= 116.1 3,482.5

 
4) Remaining HT'ss Isles =
     UK mix England, Ireland-Ulster, Scotland, Wales
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=41 DF13> Remaining GA coal= 110.0 3,301.4 GA= 119.1 3,572.1
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=2647 L21 All GB coal= 109.1 3,272.1 GB= 116.1 3,482.5
                
59 37 Markers       
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 153.8 4,613.1    

MJost

Edit typo in both DYS391 to a minus 1


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Richard Rocca on July 19, 2012, 03:39:42 PM
ok 2nd posting try.

DF13+ Xsubclades Xpredicted Subclade 67 markers
 
If we agree that L21 is about 3.7K to 4K YBP and, since I ran the DF13+xSubclades and XPredicted Subclades in Gen111T,  the age difference was about 450 yrs@30 yr gen's,.
 
And considering that the Modal of L21 and DF13+x's has the same modal with only DYS 449=30 using 111 markers set with N=47. The mean HT for this set had 464c=-1, CYDa=+1, 413a=-1, 481+1 and 712=+1 all fast expect 413a which is medium speed mutator.
 
In the DF13+xSubcladesXPredicted Subclades using the 67 marker set of Hts, the off modals are DYS391=-1 (Most by the 60 or so Scots and 1511-A's other wise would be modal), so I split the list in to four camps,  1) Scots only, 2) 1511's, 3) 9919's and 4) all others.
 

I can't imagine any scenario where L21 is not at least as old as British/Irish Bell Beakers.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 19, 2012, 03:55:07 PM
I've updated the R-L21 descendancy tree chart. It's in the Yahoo Group forum and here:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/Haplogroup_Tree_Chart_R-L21.jpg

I've tried to add the ending digits/letters from the ISOGG haplogroup labels into the correct SNP boxes.  ISOGG has done a great job of keeping up with all of the changes.

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Thank you to all of the researchers and thank you to ISOGG.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Richard Rocca on July 19, 2012, 04:12:06 PM
I've updated the R-L21 descendancy tree chart. It's in the Yahoo Group forum and here:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/Haplogroup_Tree_Chart_R-L21.jpg

I've tried to add the ending digits/letters from the ISOGG haplogroup labels into the correct SNP boxes.  ISOGG has done a great job of keeping up with all of the changes.

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Thank you to all of the researchers and thank you to ISOGG.

Thanks Mike. Just one thing - there seems to be a couple of extra letters in the FTDNA Hg designation for L21 in the diagram.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 19, 2012, 05:15:19 PM
I've updated the R-L21 descendancy tree chart. It's in the Yahoo Group forum and here:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/Haplogroup_Tree_Chart_R-L21.jpg

I've tried to add the ending digits/letters from the ISOGG haplogroup labels into the correct SNP boxes.  ISOGG has done a great job of keeping up with all of the changes.

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Thank you to all of the researchers and thank you to ISOGG.

Thanks Mike. Just one thing - there seems to be a couple of extra letters in the FTDNA Hg designation for L21 in the diagram.

Good catch. I fixed it.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 19, 2012, 06:04:15 PM
Here are the asterisk and double asterisk folks that I'm aware of (as I'm defined the asterisks.) I'm including the DF13* and DF13** guys because they've actually shown great diligence in testing, particularly DF13**.

L21** = L21+ DF13- DF63-
f37201   Berry   England, Yorkshire and Humber, West Yorkshire, Almondbury Huddersfield
fN80403   Bishop   England, London

L21* = L21+ DF13-
f54798   Franklin   England
f174870   Franklin   England
f127090   LeBlanc   France
f25304   Maddox   France
f94428   Meadows   zzUnkOrigin
f232541   Roma   Spain
               
DF13** = DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- L371- L555-
f26059   Durall   zzzUnkOrigin
f109174   Harrington   zzzUnkOrigin
f187172   Lewis   England, South West, Wiltshire
f191494   Mann   zzzUnkOrigin
fN8772   Porter   Ireland, Ulster
f19706   Price   Wales
fN55408   Smith   zzzUnkOrigin

DF13* = DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255-
fN59178   Carroll   Ireland
f16114   MacLea   Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyll and Bute, Isle of Bute
f196158   Rickwood  England, East, Suffolk, Mildenhall
fN33209   Whidden    England
f148326   zzzUnk(Ross)  zzzUnkOrigin

This group of DF13* should grow. Not many DF13+ people have tested for DF49.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: df.reynolds on July 19, 2012, 06:29:52 PM
DF13** = DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- L371- L555-
Mike, shouldn't L96- be on the DF13** list?

--david


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on July 19, 2012, 06:59:00 PM

(edit: ok i just realized these number are from 37 marker panel using 22only. I will try and rerun them at 67.)

DF13+ Xsubclades Xpredicted Subclade 67 markers
 

Re: DF13+ Xsubclade Data


Ok, I  re-ran Gen111T mod to 67 markers for the three main clusters and the remainder..
 
DF13+XSubcladesXPredicted subclades n=95 at 67 markers using 59 STRs
 
Vs L21 All
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=95 DF13+xSub&Pred All GA coal= 118.5 3,556.3 GA= 132.8 3,983.2
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=2647 L21 All GB coal= 129.8 3,893.8 GB= 146.1 4,384.1
                
59/67 Markers        
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 160.3 4,808.6    

 
 
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=29 1030's   GA coal= 56.6 1,699.0 GA= 63.6 1,907.8
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=2647 L21 All GB coal= 129.8 3,893.8 GB= 146.1 4,384.1
                
59/67 Markers        
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 137.4 4,121.5    

 
 
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=16 1511's  GA coal= 41.8 1,255.1 GA= 46.5 1,395.8
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=2647 L21 All GB coal= 129.8 3,893.8 GB= 146.1 4,384.1
                
59/67 Markers        
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 120.6 3,617.7    

 
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=12 9919's  GA coal= 103.0 3,089.5 GA= 129.0 3,870.3
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=2647 L21 All GB coal= 129.8 3,893.8 GB= 146.1 4,384.1
                
59/67 Markers        
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 276.6 8,299.0    

 
 
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=38 All remaining  GA coal= 115.3 3,458.0 GA= 124.0 3,720.0
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=2647 L21 All GB coal= 129.8 3,893.8 GB= 146.1 4,384.1
                
59/67 Markers        
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 160.6 4,819.1    

 
Vs DF13+XSubXPredictedSubclades.
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=38 All remaining  GA coal= 115.3 3,458.0 GA= 124.0 3,720.0
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=95 DF13+XSubXPredictSub  GB coal= 118.5 3,556.3 GB= 132.8 3,983.2
                
59/67 Markers        
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 153.7 4,610.0    

 
 
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=29 1030's GA coal= 56.6 1,699.0 GA= 63.6 1,907.8
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=95 DF13+XSubXPredictSub  GB coal= 118.5 3,556.3 GB= 132.8 3,983.2
                
59/67 Markers        
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 128.0 3,839.3    

 
 
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=16 1511's GA coal= 41.8 1,255.1 GA= 46.5 1,395.8
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=95 DF13+XSubXPredictSub  GB coal= 118.5 3,556.3 GB= 132.8 3,983.2
                
59/67 Markers        
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 109.1 3,273.3    

 
 
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=12 9919's GA coal= 103.0 3,089.5 GA= 129.0 3,870.3
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=95 DF13+XSubXPredictSub  GB coal= 118.5 3,556.3 GB= 132.8 3,983.2
                
59/67 Markers        
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 267.7 8,030.7    


Using Gen111T calculations 67 Markers
 
Clusters Main Geo locations
1) 1030's Scotland ---- Founder GA= TMRCA 57 Gen (1,908 yrs30)
2) 1511's Ire-Munst ----  Founder GA= TMRCA 47 Gen (1,396 yrs30)
3) 9919's Eng-Ulstr ----  Founder GA= TMRCA 129 Gen (3,870 yrs30)
4) Remaining HT'ss Isles =
     UK mix England, Ireland-Ulster, Scotland, Wales ----  Founder GA= TMRCA 118 Gen (3,720 yrs30)

Three appears to be the oldest cluster
 
 
Signed
Dag Nab it
 
MJost



Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on July 20, 2012, 06:39:24 AM
L21* = L21+ DF13-
f54798   Franklin   England
f174870   Franklin   England
f127090   LeBlanc   France
f25304   Maddox   France
f94428   Meadows   zzUnkOrigin
f232541   Roma   Spain

All of these have ordered DF63 except one of the Franklins. In addition:
f229805 - Bøen has ordered DF13 and DF63
fN11946 - Broom has ordered DF13

This to see if Mike's varieties X13-913 and X63-1011 hold up.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 20, 2012, 07:12:31 AM
No DF13 or DF63 results yesterday. It appears FTDNA was mostly doing Family Finder stuff.

Maybe today.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 20, 2012, 08:05:50 AM
It's interesting that thus far there have been no Irish DF13- results. There are 42 DF13+ results in the R-L21* Ireland category at the R-L21 Plus Project, and that is not counting all of the Irish guys in the various DF13+ subclades.

It would be nice if we could get the entire project tested for DF13, so that we can track the negatives.

I am also curious about Maddox in the DF13- category. My understanding is that Maddox/Mattox is a Welsh surname, yet his ancestor is listed as having been born in France. I am wondering if he was merely born in France or was actually French. Anyway, I sent an email to that member asking for some clarification.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on July 20, 2012, 08:43:53 AM
It seems that the two oldest varieties under DF13* are either 9919 as English and 'All Others are UK based


9919 kits that have an 'Old World' reported as:
England
England
England
England
England
Germany
Ireland
Ireland
Scotland
Wales
zzCountry
zzCountry

And the 'All Others' Cluster (Notice the West stats)

England   IS Eng North West
England   IS Eng z unk
England   IS Eng South West
England   IS Eng North West
England   IS Eng z unk
England    IS Eng South West
France   EW Fra z unk
France   EW Fra North & Central
Germany   EW Ger North
Ireland   IS Ire z unk
Ireland   IS Ire Leinster
Ireland   IS Ire Ulster
Ireland   IS Ire z unk
Ireland   IS Ire Ulster
Ireland   IS Ire Ulster
Portugal   EW Iberian Peninsula
Scotland   IS Sco North
Scotland   IS Sco West & Central
Scotland   IS Sco West & Central
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea
Wales   IS Wales
Wales   IS Wales

MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: df.reynolds on July 20, 2012, 12:27:46 PM
Here are the asterisk and double asterisk folks that I'm aware of (as I'm defined the asterisks.) I'm including the DF13* and DF13** guys because they've actually shown great diligence in testing, particularly DF13**.

L21** = L21+ DF13- DF63-
f37201   Berry   England, Yorkshire and Humber, West Yorkshire, Almondbury Huddersfield
fN80403   Bishop   England, London

L21* = L21+ DF13-
f54798   Franklin   England
f174870   Franklin   England
f127090   LeBlanc   France
f25304   Maddox   France
f94428   Meadows   zzUnkOrigin
f232541   Roma   Spain
               
DF13** = DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- L371- L555-
f26059   Durall   zzzUnkOrigin
f109174   Harrington   zzzUnkOrigin
f187172   Lewis   England, South West, Wiltshire
f191494   Mann   zzzUnkOrigin
fN8772   Porter   Ireland, Ulster
f19706   Price   Wales
fN55408   Smith   zzzUnkOrigin

DF13* = DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255-
fN59178   Carroll   Ireland
f16114   MacLea   Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyll and Bute, Isle of Bute
f196158   Rickwood  England, East, Suffolk, Mildenhall
fN33209   Whidden    England
f148326   zzzUnk(Ross)  zzzUnkOrigin

This group of DF13* should grow. Not many DF13+ people have tested for DF49.

BTW, Thomas confirmed that kit 64047 Lurz, Draas (German minority), Romania is:
  DF13+ DF49- L513- L96- L144- Z255- Z253- DF21- L371- DF41- L555- L526+

--david


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 20, 2012, 12:52:48 PM
Here are the asterisk and double asterisk folks that I'm aware of (as I'm defined the asterisks.) I'm including the DF13* and DF13** guys because they've actually shown great diligence in testing, particularly DF13**.

L21** = L21+ DF13- DF63-
f37201   Berry   England, Yorkshire and Humber, West Yorkshire, Almondbury Huddersfield
fN80403   Bishop   England, London

L21* = L21+ DF13-
f54798   Franklin   England
f174870   Franklin   England
f127090   LeBlanc   France
f25304   Maddox   France
f94428   Meadows   zzUnkOrigin
f232541   Roma   Spain
               
DF13** = DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- L371- L555-
f26059   Durall   zzzUnkOrigin
f109174   Harrington   zzzUnkOrigin
f187172   Lewis   England, South West, Wiltshire
f191494   Mann   zzzUnkOrigin
fN8772   Porter   Ireland, Ulster
f19706   Price   Wales
fN55408   Smith   zzzUnkOrigin

DF13* = DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255-
fN59178   Carroll   Ireland
f16114   MacLea   Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyll and Bute, Isle of Bute
f196158   Rickwood  England, East, Suffolk, Mildenhall
fN33209   Whidden    England
f148326   zzzUnk(Ross)  zzzUnkOrigin

This group of DF13* should grow. Not many DF13+ people have tested for DF49.

BTW, Thomas confirmed that kit 64047 Lurz, Draas (German minority), Romania is:
  DF13+ DF49- L513- L96- L144- Z255- Z253- DF21- L371- DF41- L555- L526+

--david

Yes, I should move him back to the asterisk group. I've had him marked as R-L21/DF13/L526 but L526 hasn't broken private status yet.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 20, 2012, 03:00:08 PM
I wish WTY results would show up on the individual's Haplotree page and in the various arrays of SNP results that show up on GAP and public project pages.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on July 20, 2012, 04:42:12 PM
I wish WTY results would show up on the individual's Haplotree page and in the various arrays of SNP results that show up on GAP and public project pages.

Someone on the L21 Yahoo group said that FTDNA will add them on request as long as they are available through the advanced orders menu. I doubt they'll accept such a request from a group admin with a WTY in the group, but the tested person should be able to request it.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: df.reynolds on July 20, 2012, 05:15:15 PM
I wish WTY results would show up on the individual's Haplotree page and in the various arrays of SNP results that show up on GAP and public project pages.

Someone on the L21 Yahoo group said that FTDNA will add them on request as long as they are available through the advanced orders menu. I doubt they'll accept such a request from a group admin with a WTY in the group, but the tested person should be able to request it.

-Kai

That is correct. This is what I sent to the FTDNA Help Desk for my WTY:

Quote from: email
Would you please copy the following SNP test results from my WTY test (GRC001105) to the haplotree page in my-ftnda personal pages (kit 20437):
  L21+ L459+ L176.2- DF5+ L625+ L626+ L627+

Note that FTDNA states in writing (in the WTY FAQ) that they will not do this. When I mention this capability to people, I suggest they limit their request to those SNPs that are directly relevant to their clade--if someone comes along and demands that dozens or hundreds of results be transferred, my guess would be that we would see FTDNA eliminating this useful backdoor.

Regards,
david


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: seferhabahir on July 20, 2012, 05:37:35 PM
I wish WTY results would show up on the individual's Haplotree page and in the various arrays of SNP results that show up on GAP and public project pages.

Someone on the L21 Yahoo group said that FTDNA will add them on request as long as they are available through the advanced orders menu. I doubt they'll accept such a request from a group admin with a WTY in the group, but the tested person should be able to request it.

-Kai

That is correct. This is what I sent to the FTDNA Help Desk for my WTY:

Quote from: email
Would you please copy the following SNP test results from my WTY test (GRC001105) to the haplotree page in my-ftnda personal pages (kit 20437):
  L21+ L459+ L176.2- DF5+ L625+ L626+ L627+

Note that FTDNA states in writing (in the WTY FAQ) that they will not do this. When I mention this capability to people, I suggest they limit their request to those SNPs that are directly relevant to their clade--if someone comes along and demands that dozens or hundreds of results be transferred, my guess would be that we would see FTDNA eliminating this useful backdoor.

Regards,
david

I found this to be sort of a hit or miss process, in particular for negative tests. When I asked them to add L513- to my haplotree they did so, and then when I asked them to add L371- they did not. I didn't pester them about it, but at least it shows up on the L21 WTY score sheet maintained on David's web page.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 20, 2012, 06:50:00 PM
It's interesting that thus far there have been no Irish DF13- results. There are 42 DF13+ results in the R-L21* Ireland category at the R-L21 Plus Project, and that is not counting all of the Irish guys in the various DF13+ subclades.

It would be nice if we could get the entire project tested for DF13, so that we can track the negatives.

I am also curious about Maddox in the DF13- category. My understanding is that Maddox/Mattox is a Welsh surname, yet his ancestor is listed as having been born in France. I am wondering if he was merely born in France or was actually French. Anyway, I sent an email to that member asking for some clarification.


I heard from Maddox, and his y-dna line is French. The surname is French Huguenot and was originally Motteux. Evidently it was later anglicized to Maddox and Mattox in the USA.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 21, 2012, 10:30:39 AM
Some DF13 and DF63 results have already come in this morning.

First off, Franklin and Leblanc (a double twofer on that, as there are two Franklins and two Leblancs who are DF13-) are DF63+ and have been moved to that category.

Second, two Germans, a Norwegian, and a Spaniard all got DF13+ results.

Third - the real earth-shaking news - , I am DF13+. Whoopee! Now we know that DF13 was present on the east bank of the Ohio River by 1804. (We were all wondering about that, I'm sure.) ;-)

Remember the "Genghis Khan Effect"? So, who was the Genghis Khan of DF13?


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 21, 2012, 10:42:44 AM
Some DF13 and DF63 results have already come in this morning.

First off, Franklin and Leblanc (a double twofer on that, as there are two Franklins and two Leblancs who are DF13-) are DF63+ and have been moved to that category.

Second, two Germans, a Norwegian, and a Spaniard all got DF13+ results.

Third - the real earth-shaking news - , I am DF13+. Whoopee! Now we know that DF13 was present on the east bank of the Ohio River by 1804. (We were all wondering about that, I'm sure.) ;-)

Remember the "Genghis Khan Effect"? So, who was the Genghis Khan of DF13?


By the way, that was a very quick turnaround on my DF13 test. I ordered it on July 4th, but that was a big holiday here in the USA, so my sample didn't go the lab until a week later, on July 11th. Ten days total for the results. Not bad. That's the fastest turnaround time I have ever experienced for dna test results.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 21, 2012, 10:59:04 AM
So, I guess the big news or big mystery or both so far is that the only DF13- DF63- folks are Bishop, kit N80403 (Ysearch unknown), and Berry, kit 37201, Ysearch RQMXC. Both have ancestry in England: Bishop in London, Berry in Yorkshire.

Meadows, kit 94428, who is DF13-, is 7 off Bishop at 67 markers, so I suspect he, too, will be DF63-, but we'll see. He is awaiting DF63 results.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: seferhabahir on July 21, 2012, 11:20:51 AM
Here are the asterisk and double asterisk folks that I'm aware of (as I'm defined the asterisks.) I'm including the DF13* and DF13** guys because they've actually shown great diligence in testing, particularly DF13**.
               
DF13** = DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- L371- L555-
f26059   Durall   zzzUnkOrigin
f109174   Harrington   zzzUnkOrigin
f187172   Lewis   England, South West, Wiltshire
f191494   Mann   zzzUnkOrigin
fN8772   Porter   Ireland, Ulster
f19706   Price   Wales
fN55408   Smith   zzzUnkOrigin


Mike, you can add me to the list of DF13** as my test just came back DF49- last night, making me:

DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- (L371- L555-)

f193834  Yurzditsky   Belarus

Last two tests in parentheses do show up negative in my WTY, but are not listed on my haplotree.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on July 21, 2012, 12:09:04 PM
Some DF13 and DF63 results have already come in this morning.

First off, Franklin and Leblanc (a double twofer on that, as there are two Franklins and two Leblancs who are DF13-) are DF63+ and have been moved to that category.

Actually, there are three LeBlancs in Mike's spreadsheet, the third being f202783. Even though he is a GD of 21 from DF63+ LeBlanc (f127090) and in a different variety, he does seem to share some off mode markers, namely 391, 449, 456 and 576. Significant or coincidence?

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 21, 2012, 12:23:02 PM
Some DF13 and DF63 results have already come in this morning.

First off, Franklin and Leblanc (a double twofer on that, as there are two Franklins and two Leblancs who are DF13-) are DF63+ and have been moved to that category.

Actually, there are three LeBlancs in Mike's spreadsheet, the third being f202783. Even though he is a GD of 21 from DF63+ LeBlanc (f127090) and in a different variety, he does seem to share some off mode markers, namely 391, 449, 456 and 576. Significant or coincidence?

-Kai

That third Leblanc (kit 202783) is not in the R-L21 Plus Project, as far as I can tell. I don't see that kit number in the French Heritage Project either.



Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on July 21, 2012, 12:32:27 PM
Here are the asterisk and double asterisk folks that I'm aware of (as I'm defined the asterisks.) I'm including the DF13* and DF13** guys because they've actually shown great diligence in testing, particularly DF13**.
               
DF13** = DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- L371- L555-
f26059   Durall   zzzUnkOrigin
f109174   Harrington   zzzUnkOrigin
f187172   Lewis   England, South West, Wiltshire
f191494   Mann   zzzUnkOrigin
fN8772   Porter   Ireland, Ulster
f19706   Price   Wales
fN55408   Smith   zzzUnkOrigin


Mike, you can add me to the list of DF13** as my test just came back DF49- last night, making me:

DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- (L371- L555-)

f193834  Yurzditsky   Belarus

Last two tests in parentheses do show up negative in my WTY, but are not listed on my haplotree.

I am also WTY L371- L555- and should be a **


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Jdean on July 21, 2012, 12:46:14 PM
Some DF13 and DF63 results have already come in this morning.

First off, Franklin and Leblanc (a double twofer on that, as there are two Franklins and two Leblancs who are DF13-) are DF63+ and have been moved to that category.

Actually, there are three LeBlancs in Mike's spreadsheet, the third being f202783. Even though he is a GD of 21 from DF63+ LeBlanc (f127090) and in a different variety, he does seem to share some off mode markers, namely 391, 449, 456 and 576. Significant or coincidence?

-Kai

That third Leblanc (kit 202783) is not in the R-L21 Plus Project, as far as I can tell. I don't see that kit number in the French Heritage Project either.



Apparently he's Irish

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Eo´ganacht%20septs/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Eo´ganacht%20septs/default.aspx?section=yresults)


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 21, 2012, 12:53:53 PM
Some DF13 and DF63 results have already come in this morning.

First off, Franklin and Leblanc (a double twofer on that, as there are two Franklins and two Leblancs who are DF13-) are DF63+ and have been moved to that category.

Actually, there are three LeBlancs in Mike's spreadsheet, the third being f202783. Even though he is a GD of 21 from DF63+ LeBlanc (f127090) and in a different variety, he does seem to share some off mode markers, namely 391, 449, 456 and 576. Significant or coincidence?

-Kai

That third Leblanc (kit 202783) is not in the R-L21 Plus Project, as far as I can tell. I don't see that kit number in the French Heritage Project either.



Apparently he's Irish

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Eo´ganacht%20septs/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Eo´ganacht%20septs/default.aspx?section=yresults)


I see, thanks. The surname is Moriarty, but he lists a Pierre LeBlanc, 1475 - 1495, as ancestor. It doesn't look like he has an L21+ result yet, either, at least not from FTDNA.

I wonder why he is in that project, if he really believes his ancestor was Pierre LeBlanc.

Anyway, he is way off our DF63+ Leblancs, and lists a different mdka, anyway.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Dubhthach on July 21, 2012, 12:59:22 PM
Some DF13 and DF63 results have already come in this morning.

First off, Franklin and Leblanc (a double twofer on that, as there are two Franklins and two Leblancs who are DF13-) are DF63+ and have been moved to that category.


Actually, there are three LeBlancs in Mike's spreadsheet, the third being f202783. Even though he is a GD of 21 from DF63+ LeBlanc (f127090) and in a different variety, he does seem to share some off mode markers, namely 391, 449, 456 and 576. Significant or coincidence?

-Kai

That third Leblanc (kit 202783) is not in the R-L21 Plus Project, as far as I can tell. I don't see that kit number in the French Heritage Project either.



Apparently he's Irish

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Eo´ganacht%20septs/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Eo´ganacht%20septs/default.aspx?section=yresults)


I see, thanks. The surname is Moriarty, but he lists a Pierre LeBlanc, 1475 - 1495, as ancestor. It doesn't look like he has an L21+ result yet, either, at least not from FTDNA.

I wonder why he is in that project, if he really believes his ancestor was Pierre LeBlanc.

Anyway, he is way off our DF63+ Leblancs, and lists a different mdka, anyway.

Well Moriarty is a munster and Eoghanachta connected name:

Ó MUIRCHEARTAIGH—I—O Morierty, O Murtagh, Moriarty, Murtagh, Murtaugh; 'descendant of Muircheartach' (sea-director, expert navigator); the name (1) of a Kerry family who were anciently chiefs of Aos Aisde, a district lying probably along the river Mang; and (2) of a Meath family still numerous in that county and in Monaghan, where it is anglicised Murtagh. In Munster it is always anglicised Moriarty.

The project page mentions:
Eoganacht Locha Lein - O'Moriarty

As a result he may have joined purely on basis that it advertises Moriarty as one of surnames in the project. Who knows.



Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 21, 2012, 01:13:08 PM
I found a Moriarty in Ysearch (N9358) who matches 202783 on the first 12 markers, anyway (it's a 12-marker entry, unfortunately). He lists a Patrick Moriarty, born about 1789 in Tralee, Ireland, as mdka.

That could be him, and he just has never updated his Ysearch entry (an all too familiar tale).

He matches the "South Irish R1b" modal in Ysearch, XREMB, on those first 12 markers. I'm not manually checking 202783 against the rest. No thanks.

I'm betting Moriarty-LeBlanc (202783) is more Moriarty than LeBlanc and is DF13+ to boot.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on July 21, 2012, 01:56:51 PM
OK, thanks for checking that out for me. I've seen GDs of 26@67 markers for DF63, so I just wanted to know if there was a possible overlap into the South Irish variety or Mike's 1511-A-T2 variety. My theory was that maybe LeBlanc had been told that he matched the South Irish variety and joined a project accordingly. His listed MDKA is clearly French.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: df.reynolds on July 21, 2012, 03:20:46 PM
Bishop, kit N80403 (Ysearch unknown)

GDNM8

--david


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 21, 2012, 07:48:49 PM
Here are the asterisk and double asterisk folks that I'm aware of (as I'm defined the asterisks.) I'm including the DF13* and DF13** guys because they've actually shown great diligence in testing, particularly DF13**.
               
DF13** = DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- L371- L555-
f26059   Durall   zzzUnkOrigin
f109174   Harrington   zzzUnkOrigin
f187172   Lewis   England, South West, Wiltshire
f191494   Mann   zzzUnkOrigin
fN8772   Porter   Ireland, Ulster
f19706   Price   Wales
fN55408   Smith   zzzUnkOrigin


Mike, you can add me to the list of DF13** as my test just came back DF49- last night, making me:

DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- (L371- L555-)

f193834  Yurzditsky   Belarus

Last two tests in parentheses do show up negative in my WTY, but are not listed on my haplotree.

I am also WTY L371- L555- and should be a **

Will add the L555- in the WTY column of my internal spreadsheet so you should now show up correctly.

It is too bad FTDNA can't get the pertinent SNP results to show up in one's haplotree.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 21, 2012, 07:55:19 PM
OK, thanks for checking that out for me. I've seen GDs of 26@67 markers for DF63, so I just wanted to know if there was a possible overlap into the South Irish variety or Mike's 1511-A-T2 variety. My theory was that maybe LeBlanc had been told that he matched the South Irish variety and joined a project accordingly. His listed MDKA is clearly French.

-Kai

Yes, 1511-A-T2 is a 67 STR signature that I stumbled upon that aligns with Irish Type II.  Some people call this South Irish. To be honest, I don't like the geographic association because these guys are found in a lot more places than the south of Ireland.

... but, yes, the overlap is exact.  1511-A-T2 = South Irish = Irish Type II, at least as I understand them.

I don't think these guys have anything to do with DF63 people other than they are L21+.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 22, 2012, 07:38:25 AM
There are three DF13 results I am eagerly anticipating.

1. Pais, kit 84728. He is Catalonian, and one of our DF13- guys, Roma, is also Catalonian.

2. Orbán, kit 194684. He is Hungarian and has no close matches. I am interested to see if DF13 extends that far east.

3. Loncharich, kit 142664. He is Croatian. He has no matches either, except to a member of his own family.

Note: When I say "no close matches", I am including only those at 37 and 67 markers. While 25-marker matches have the potential to mean something, that potential is only revealed by upgrading to 37 or 67 markers and beyond.

I wish we could get all the guys in the Ireland category to test for DF13. Are there any DF13- guys in Ireland? Thus far, the answer to that is no, but only 42 of them have results (not counting the Irish guys in all the DF13+ subclades).


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Peter M on July 22, 2012, 07:47:46 AM
There are three DF13 results I am eagerly anticipating.

1. Pais, kit 84728. He is Catalonian, and one of our DF13- guys, Roma, is also Catalonian.

2. Orbán, kit 194684. He is Hungarian and has no close matches. I am interested to see if DF13 extends that far east.

3. Loncharich, kit 142664. He is Croatian. He has no matches either, except to a member of his own family.

Note: When I say "no close matches", I am including only those at 37 and 67 markers. While 25-marker matches have the potential to mean something, that potential is only revealed by upgrading to 37 or 67 markers and beyond.

I wish we could get all the guys in the Ireland category to test for DF13. Are there any DF13- guys in Ireland? Thus far, the answer to that is no, but only 42 of them have results (not counting the Irish guys in all the DF13+ subclades).
Please keep in mind there are a LOT of people in Hungary who have a German ancestry (mainly South-Western Germany or Schwabenland) and Croatia once was a part of Hungary.

But still an interesting test result, I guess. $:-)


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 22, 2012, 08:35:49 AM
There are three DF13 results I am eagerly anticipating.

1. Pais, kit 84728. He is Catalonian, and one of our DF13- guys, Roma, is also Catalonian.

2. Orbán, kit 194684. He is Hungarian and has no close matches. I am interested to see if DF13 extends that far east.

3. Loncharich, kit 142664. He is Croatian. He has no matches either, except to a member of his own family.

Note: When I say "no close matches", I am including only those at 37 and 67 markers. While 25-marker matches have the potential to mean something, that potential is only revealed by upgrading to 37 or 67 markers and beyond.

I wish we could get all the guys in the Ireland category to test for DF13. Are there any DF13- guys in Ireland? Thus far, the answer to that is no, but only 42 of them have results (not counting the Irish guys in all the DF13+ subclades).
Please keep in mind there are a LOT of people in Hungary who have a German ancestry (mainly South-Western Germany or Schwabenland) and Croatia once was a part of Hungary.

But still an interesting test result, I guess. $:-)

True, but don't most of them have German surnames? Orbán looks like a non-German, Magyar surname to me, but I'm no expert on that.



Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Peter M on July 22, 2012, 09:21:53 AM
There are three DF13 results I am eagerly anticipating.

1. Pais, kit 84728. He is Catalonian, and one of our DF13- guys, Roma, is also Catalonian.

2. Orbán, kit 194684. He is Hungarian and has no close matches. I am interested to see if DF13 extends that far east.

3. Loncharich, kit 142664. He is Croatian. He has no matches either, except to a member of his own family.

Note: When I say "no close matches", I am including only those at 37 and 67 markers. While 25-marker matches have the potential to mean something, that potential is only revealed by upgrading to 37 or 67 markers and beyond.

I wish we could get all the guys in the Ireland category to test for DF13. Are there any DF13- guys in Ireland? Thus far, the answer to that is no, but only 42 of them have results (not counting the Irish guys in all the DF13+ subclades).
Please keep in mind there are a LOT of people in Hungary who have a German ancestry (mainly South-Western Germany or Schwabenland) and Croatia once was a part of Hungary.

But still an interesting test result, I guess. $:-)

True, but don't most of them have German surnames? Orbán looks like a non-German, Magyar surname to me, but I'm no expert on that.

Not necessarily. A lot of them came to Hungary before surnames came in use. Or they changed their name to the Hungarian equivalent of their German name. Possibly some of them even came with the Huns in the 5th century when they (the Huns) retreated from Germany.

Even today there are name signs of towns in Hungary both in Hungarian and in German or Croatian when the village has a mixed population.

Orbán doesn't sound German to me, but I would ask Tibor for an authoritative opinion.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 22, 2012, 07:56:15 PM
He's in the Hungarian Magyar DNA Project, and Tibor Feher is one of its admins, if that means anything.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Hungarian_Magyar_Y-DNA_Project/default.aspx (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Hungarian_Magyar_Y-DNA_Project/default.aspx)


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: df.reynolds on July 22, 2012, 09:13:07 PM
He's in the Hungarian Magyar DNA Project, and Tibor Feher is one of its admins, if that means anything.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Hungarian_Magyar_Y-DNA_Project/default.aspx (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Hungarian_Magyar_Y-DNA_Project/default.aspx)

And their project background states:

Quote
The project's aim is to test the highest possible number of Hungarian (Magyar) surnames. Our primary goal is to discover who belonged to which tribe or ethnic group when entered the Carpathian Basin. Please note that this project is only for ethnic Magyar surnames to minimize the impact of post-17th century settlement and assimilation.

-david


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 23, 2012, 06:38:54 AM
He's in the Hungarian Magyar DNA Project, and Tibor Feher is one of its admins, if that means anything.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Hungarian_Magyar_Y-DNA_Project/default.aspx (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Hungarian_Magyar_Y-DNA_Project/default.aspx)

And their project background states:

Quote
The project's aim is to test the highest possible number of Hungarian (Magyar) surnames. Our primary goal is to discover who belonged to which tribe or ethnic group when entered the Carpathian Basin. Please note that this project is only for ethnic Magyar surnames to minimize the impact of post-17th century settlement and assimilation.

-david

Excellent!

He is a good candidate then. Not only that, but Orbán is an actual Hungarian, although I believe he currently lives in Romania.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Peter M on July 23, 2012, 03:30:21 PM
He's in the Hungarian Magyar DNA Project, and Tibor Feher is one of its admins, if that means anything.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Hungarian_Magyar_Y-DNA_Project/default.aspx (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Hungarian_Magyar_Y-DNA_Project/default.aspx)
I guess that means as a Hungarian he will be able to give you an idea about the background of this name.

BTW, his name is Fehér (=White); é/e is not relevant in English but it IS in Hungarian. $:-)


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 23, 2012, 05:30:21 PM
I was going from memory, Peter. I didn't recall an accent mark in Tibor's last name.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 23, 2012, 07:15:03 PM
I dont have the patience for this!


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 24, 2012, 06:43:35 AM
I dont have the patience for this!

LOL! Me either.

I'll try to remember the accent marks from now on!


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 27, 2012, 07:46:01 AM
We have a second Scot with DF13- results: Sutherland, kit 14713.

I'll ask him to test for DF63.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on July 27, 2012, 07:48:34 AM
We have a second Scot with DF13- results: Sutherland, kit 14713.

I'll ask him to test for DF63.

Great! My money is on DF63+! :-)

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 27, 2012, 07:57:36 AM
We have a second Scot with DF13- results: Sutherland, kit 14713.

I'll ask him to test for DF63.

Great! My money is on DF63+! :-)

-Kai

Mine, too.

His mdka came from Caithness and was born there in about 1764. At that time, Caithness was limited to the very northeastern tip of mainland Scotland.



Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 27, 2012, 03:36:29 PM
Sutherland has ordered the DF63 test.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on July 27, 2012, 03:43:16 PM
Sutherland has ordered the DF63 test.

That's great! There are so many DF13 and DF63 results I'm waiting for at the moment, and they seem to take forever! I'm especially curious about the Broom and Bøen tests which are ordered based on Mike's varieties.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 27, 2012, 03:56:02 PM
Sutherland has ordered the DF63 test.

That's great! There are so many DF13 and DF63 results I'm waiting for at the moment, and they seem to take forever! I'm especially curious about the Broom and Bøen tests which are ordered based on Mike's varieties.

I'm really curious about the DF13 test for Orbán, the Hungarian.

Maybe we'll get some of those results today.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: secherbernard on July 27, 2012, 05:37:34 PM
I hope I'll get my DF13 result soon. It is two months I am waiting for.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 27, 2012, 08:06:14 PM
I hope I'll get my DF13 result soon. It is two months I am waiting for.

You should email them, Bernard. Maybe they need to send you a new kit.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 27, 2012, 08:20:07 PM
So far, no new results this evening. Maybe they'll post some later. Sometimes FTDNA posts results pretty late.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 27, 2012, 09:02:19 PM
Well, good night, all. I think I'll go downstairs and have another pale ale. Nothing going on here.

I started watching the Olympics: sorry, London,  but . . . yawn. Of course, a lot of that probably has to do with the way our American network NBC is presenting things.

I'll go watch "Call of the Wildman" on Animal Planet. I like that Kentucky boy, "Turtle Man", and his buddies. They all look like good ol' R-L21s to me. ;-)

Saw them pull a family of 'possums out of whiskey distillery a little while ago.

Live action!


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: secherbernard on July 28, 2012, 02:19:33 AM
You should email them, Bernard. Maybe they need to send you a new kit.
Yes, I emailed them two days ago, but I received no answer. There is another guy : kit 16274 who ordered the DF13 test in the beginning of June and who has not yet his DF13 result. But other guys are waiting for their results for much longer: kit N28007 ordered DF21 test in 2011: the deadline is in december 2011 and he has not yet his result. So maybe I will not have my DF13 result at the end of the year 2012. I am really depressed...


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: secherbernard on July 28, 2012, 02:34:09 AM
We got new results yesterday:

Meadows, UK kit 94428 is DF13- DF63-
Ben C Chavez, Spain kit 180338 is DF13-


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on July 28, 2012, 05:38:38 AM
We got new results yesterday:

Meadows, UK kit 94428 is DF13- DF63-
Ben C Chavez, Spain kit 180338 is DF13-

Well at least we got some new results! :-) Meadows was sort of expected to be DF63-, given his close STR pattern to Bishop. I've contacted Mr. Chavez and asked him to test for DF63. I also asked if he would fill out his MDKA on myFTDNA.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 28, 2012, 06:42:12 AM
Our Hungarian and two of our Poles all got DF13+ results. I was disappointed, but life goes on.

Whatever DF13-/DF63- means, and whatever DF63+ means, it's not going to be slap-in-the-face obvious.

Still no Irish DF13- yet.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 28, 2012, 07:02:04 AM
Our Hungarian and two of our Poles all got DF13+ results. I was disappointed, but life goes on.

Whatever DF13-/DF63- means, and whatever DF63+ means, it's not going to be slap-in-the-face obvious.

Still no Irish DF13- yet.


I forgot to mention that Pais also got a DF13+ result. Since Roma is Catalonian and is DF13-, I thought maybe Pais, who is also Catalonian, might be DF13-.

In our massive Catalonian sample of two, DF13 is at 50% frequency. ;-)


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on July 28, 2012, 07:18:10 AM
Our Hungarian and two of our Poles all got DF13+ results. I was disappointed, but life goes on.

Whatever DF13-/DF63- means, and whatever DF63+ means, it's not going to be slap-in-the-face obvious.

Still no Irish DF13- yet.


I forgot to mention that Pais also got a DF13+ result. Since Roma is Catalonian and is DF13-, I thought maybe Pais, who is also Catalonian, might be DF13-.

In our massive Catalonian sample of two, DF13 is at 50% frequency. ;-)

So far it seems like a lottery. This is what I wrote on the L21 Yahoo group this morning:
Quote
As of now we have 14 DF13- kits. 9 of those have received their DF63 results. Of
those 9, 6 are DF63+ and 3 are DF63-. L21* used to be a huge group. As it looks
now, it is a really small group with nearly all L21+ being DF13+ and of those
who are DF13-, two thirds are DF63+.

It's a bit early to start drawing conclusions but some patterns are emerging:
1: DF13- is much more common in the mainland Europe part of the L21+ group.
2: So far all three L21** are from England. Which is really strange, so I hope
we get more DF13- results soon to see if this holds up.

I hope the new DF13- results will help Mike make new varieties. His X13-* varieties so far seem to be correct.

Rich: are there many kits remaining that you would like to test for DF13 but lack funding for?

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 28, 2012, 07:28:13 AM
No, we have the money. There is one Frenchman with an odd haplotype to whom I offered a DF13 test. The woman who runs that kit hasn't answered me.

Thus far, the DF13- results form an odd geographic pattern, if you can call it a pattern.

One thing you can say about it in the British Isles: it's eastern.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: secherbernard on July 28, 2012, 05:05:13 PM
Chavez has ordered the DF63 test.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on July 28, 2012, 06:07:55 PM
Great! That means that all DF13- to date have a DF63 result or have a test pending.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: df.reynolds on July 28, 2012, 07:49:17 PM
No, we have the money. There is one Frenchman with an odd haplotype to whom I offered a DF13 test. The woman who runs that kit hasn't answered me.

Thus far, the DF13- results form an odd geographic pattern, if you can call it a pattern.

One thing you can say about it in the British Isles: it's eastern.

I'm also waiting to see how many more P312+ L459+ Z245+ L21- turn up (and where), now that we know better who to test. I'm having a tough time slotting the Welsh Mr. Jones' result into my preconceived theories. :)

--david


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 28, 2012, 08:39:31 PM
The indications seem to be that DF13 negative on the continent corresponds with the general L21 hotpots down from NW France to the Pyrenees and is incredibly rare elsewhere.  As per usual the few hits in Britain have to be seen in light of the gigantic bias in testing towards British heritage folks and the telling statistic is the numbers of DF 13 per number tested (i.e. percentage) in a given area.  Simple totals tell us nothing.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 28, 2012, 10:40:46 PM
The indications seem to be that DF13 negative on the continent corresponds with the general L21 hotpots down from NW France to the Pyrenees and is incredibly rare elsewhere.  As per usual the few hits in Britain have to be seen in light of the gigantic bias in testing towards British heritage folks and the telling statistic is the numbers of DF 13 per number tested (i.e. percentage) in a given area.  Simple totals tell us nothing.

I think one total that may be telling us something is the absence of DF13- in Ireland, and in the western part of the Isles in general, thus far. So far, the westernmost DF13- result in the British Isles is that of Berry, whose ancestor came from Almondbury in West Yorkshire.

The two Scots are both from the east coast: Sutherland from Caithness and Lowden from Dundee.

If Jones is confirmed as L21- Z245+ L459+, that will be something to chew on. I get the feeling that's going to fall through, but, of course, I could be wrong.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: df.reynolds on July 29, 2012, 01:58:03 AM
...
If Jones is confirmed as L21- Z245+ L459+, that will be something to chew on. I get the feeling that's going to fall through, but, of course, I could be wrong.

I wasn't particularly optimistic initially, but a post from Mark Jost (http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10861.msg135366#msg135366) made think this is more likely than I originally thought.

--david


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: jerome72 on July 29, 2012, 07:41:39 AM
To better visualize things, I created a map with the DF13-
I could locate only 10.
All accuracy or correction is welcome!
http://goo.gl/maps/wA2G


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on July 29, 2012, 07:54:15 AM
To better visualize things, I created a map with the DF13-
I could locate only 10.
All accuracy or correction is welcome!
http://goo.gl/maps/wA2G

Nice map! The ones you're missing are (if we ignore those with the same surname):
N72406 - Darke - England
54798 - Franklin - England

All 14 that I know of are listed here: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/default.aspx?section=ysnp
Just search for DF13-.

I'm hoping to see more DF13- results soon. It is very unfortunate that DF13 is not included in Geno 2.0. :-/

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 29, 2012, 08:21:30 AM
To better visualize things, I created a map with the DF13-
I could locate only 10.
All accuracy or correction is welcome!
http://goo.gl/maps/wA2G

Excellent map.

Kai mentioned Darke and Franklin. Neither lists a specific, mappable location for his most distant y-dna ancestor, so I can see why you don't have them on your map.



Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: jerome72 on July 29, 2012, 08:37:26 AM
To better visualize things, I created a map with the DF13-
I could locate only 10.
All accuracy or correction is welcome!
http://goo.gl/maps/wA2G

Nice map! The ones you're missing are (if we ignore those with the same surname):
N72406 - Darke - England
54798 - Franklin - England
Thanks!
I added Franklin, but not Darke because there are no details about his origine country


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on July 29, 2012, 08:40:59 AM
To better visualize things, I created a map with the DF13-
I could locate only 10.
All accuracy or correction is welcome!
http://goo.gl/maps/wA2G

Nice map! The ones you're missing are (if we ignore those with the same surname):
N72406 - Darke - England
54798 - Franklin - England
Thanks!
I added Franklin, but not Darke because there are no details about his origine country

I have England as location for Darke in my notes. That comes from the L21 Yahoo group. But I don't have a specific location as Rich correctly points out.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 29, 2012, 08:53:20 AM
Both Darke and Franklin are Americans. I don't think either of them knows where in England his ancestor came from.

They're probably like me in that way. I'm pretty sure my immigrant ancestor came from England or Wales, but I can't say who he was or where exactly he was from, so I list "Unknown" for national origin.

As far as I know, my y-dna 3rd great grandfather and his brothers just magically appeared in the vicinity of Pittsburgh in the first decade of the 19th century. Pop! Pop! Pop! And there they were.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 29, 2012, 09:14:50 AM
To better visualize things, I created a map with the DF13-
I could locate only 10.
All accuracy or correction is welcome!
http://goo.gl/maps/wA2G

We must also remember that each continental dot is worth about 100 on the isles when you take into account origins of people testing (I think that was the figure when we last discussed this.  So each dot on France and the Pyrennees etc is massively more significant than those in Britain.  The map shows the basic pattern but the emphasis is incrediby misleading.  As far as I can tell a vastly higher proportion of L21 in places like western France are coming up DF 13 negative. 

As for why its in the eastern part of the isles but the Atlantic part of the continent, perhaps that is indicative that L21 first spread into the east of Britain and that western L21 is a subset/founder effect that lost the DF13 negative element.  Other possibilities are that the Normans (and allies) were involved in moving the Atlantic continental DF13 negative element into eastern Britain.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 29, 2012, 09:45:25 AM
Thus far, Ireland and the west of Britain are solidly DF13+. That would seem to eliminate those areas as candidates for the Urheimat of L21.

(If Jones of Wales turns out to be really be L21- Z245+ L459+, what then? Of course, we will need many more such results to be able to say anything definite.)


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on July 29, 2012, 10:06:05 AM
Nice map Jerome72. Interestingly, I have a question about Gery's location. Since he was adopted, was this his birth location or was he a transplanted child?

Morlaix, France
Dernière mise à jour il y a 2 heures par jerome.HAMON2
Ancêtre: Gery, enfant adopté
DF63+

MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: jerome72 on July 29, 2012, 10:14:14 AM
Thus far, Ireland and the west of Britain are solidly DF13+. That would seem to eliminate those areas as candidates for the Urheimat of L21.


P312 * (without L21 or U152) is rare in Ireland, isn't it?
 Perhaps there is a correlation between P312* and DF13-?


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: jerome72 on July 29, 2012, 10:16:27 AM
Nice map Jerome72. Interestingly, I have a question about Gery's location. Since he was adopted, was this his birth location or was he a transplanted child?

Morlaix, France
Dernière mise à jour il y a 2 heures par jerome.HAMON2
Ancêtre: Gery, enfant adopté
DF63+

MJost

I think RMS2 will respond better than me!
I took the info on the map L21: http://goo.gl/maps/TMmy


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 29, 2012, 10:22:33 AM
Nice map Jerome72. Interestingly, I have a question about Gery's location. Since he was adopted, was this his birth location or was he a transplanted child?

Morlaix, France
Dernière mise à jour il y a 2 heures par jerome.HAMON2
Ancêtre: Gery, enfant adopté
DF63+

MJost

His father was born there, and it was his father who was the adopted child. Gery is a French citizen.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 29, 2012, 10:26:10 AM
Thus far, Ireland and the west of Britain are solidly DF13+. That would seem to eliminate those areas as candidates for the Urheimat of L21.


P312 * (without L21 or U152) is rare in Ireland, isn't it?
 Perhaps there is a correlation between P312* and DF13-?

It is relatively rare, at least based on Busby's statistics and what we have seen in the R-P312 and Subclades Project. It is very rare among those with Gaelic Irish surnames.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on July 29, 2012, 10:42:51 AM
Thus far, Ireland and the west of Britain are solidly DF13+. That would seem to eliminate those areas as candidates for the Urheimat of L21.


P312 * (without L21 or U152) is rare in Ireland, isn't it?
 Perhaps there is a correlation between P312* and DF13-?

It is relatively rare, at least based on Busby's statistics and what we have seen in the R-P312 and Subclades Project. It is very rare among those with Gaelic Irish surnames.

I want to qualify my statement about P312* and Busby's figures somewhat.

There were four Irish sample locations in Busby in which the frequency of P312* was over 10%. Two of those were in locations of fairly heavy historical period settlement, Northern Ireland and Eastern Ireland. The other two were "Ireland South" and "Ireland Southwest".

The problem with all four locations is that the sample sizes were just too small. The sample size of "East Ireland" was just 16. That for "North Ireland" was 21. "Ireland South" and "Ireland Southwest" were 24 and 22, respectively.

All four of those samples came from Myres et al and were not original to Busby. I think Myres' focus was on something other than P312.

None of Busby's Irish samples yielded a P312* frequency higher than 8%.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on July 29, 2012, 10:43:11 AM
Ok, just checking the infomation as Brittany location thanks.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: secherbernard on August 01, 2012, 03:10:17 AM
Finally I received an answer from FTDNA:
Quote
Thank you for your email. I apologize for the delay. The lab has had some difficulty processing the DF13 SNP for your sample. We are in the process of re-testing now. If everything goes well on this attempt, your results should be ready within about 2 to 3 weeks. We appreciate your patience.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 01, 2012, 06:25:11 AM
Finally I received an answer from FTDNA:
Quote
Thank you for your email. I apologize for the delay. The lab has had some difficulty processing the DF13 SNP for your sample. We are in the process of re-testing now. If everything goes well on this attempt, your results should be ready within about 2 to 3 weeks. We appreciate your patience.

Hopefully the result will come even sooner.

Maybe you will be DF13-?


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: secherbernard on August 01, 2012, 07:51:36 AM
Hopefully the result will come even sooner.

Maybe you will be DF13-?
I hope, nevertheless I go on vacation next week in Perigord: one week without internet!


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 01, 2012, 08:10:33 AM
Hopefully the result will come even sooner.

Maybe you will be DF13-?
I hope, nevertheless I go on vacation next week in Perigord: one week without internet!

I hope you have a wonderful vacation. One week without internet is probably a good thing.

Maybe you should take some y-dna kits with you and collect samples there? ;-)


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Jdean on August 01, 2012, 08:13:54 AM
Hopefully the result will come even sooner.

Maybe you will be DF13-?
I hope, nevertheless I go on vacation next week in Perigord: one week without internet!

I'm in the Lot at the moment, weather gorgeous :)


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 01, 2012, 08:20:05 AM
Hopefully the result will come even sooner.

Maybe you will be DF13-?
I hope, nevertheless I go on vacation next week in Perigord: one week without internet!

I'm in the Lot at the moment, weather gorgeous :)


Must be nice.

I've spent my entire summer thus far installing hardwood floors in my house, including the stairs, and working like a dog. I just finished a couple of days ago.

My wife and daughter are leaving tomorrow for Russia and Ukraine and will be gone for a month.

It'll just be me and the dog here.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Jdean on August 01, 2012, 09:41:10 AM
Hopefully the result will come even sooner.

Maybe you will be DF13-?
I hope, nevertheless I go on vacation next week in Perigord: one week without internet!

I'm in the Lot at the moment, weather gorgeous :)


Must be nice.

I've spent my entire summer thus far installing hardwood floors in my house, including the stairs, and working like a dog. I just finished a couple of days ago.

My wife and daughter are leaving tomorrow for Russia and Ukraine and will be gone for a month.

It'll just be me and the dog here.

Sorry to here you won't be able to holiday with your family this year, but I suppose at least you'll get a little peace.

It's lovely here, not even raining which took a little getting used to :)


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 01, 2012, 08:25:47 PM
Quote
In the west, the emphatic presence of S145 [L21] appears to mirror mercantile contact. Distinctive pots known as maritime bell beakers were first made in the region around the River Tagus in Portugal and the tradition of bows and arrows in graves may also have originated there. By 2,500 BC, this cultural package had spread north to the Morbihan area of southern Brittany and the mouth of the Loire. This area became a centre of production and exchange not only for bell beakers but also other valuable items such as axes, flints, daggers and lance heads. From Morbihan/Loire the beakers filtered down the French river valleys to the Mediterranean coast and eastwards to northern Italy. To the north, contacts were made with Wessex, Ireland and Atlantic Scotland.

Now it appears that S145 also travelled these trading routes. The marker probably originated in southern France and northern Iberia and people carrying it came to Ireland and western Scotland. (The Scots: A Genetic Journey, by Alistair Moffat and James F. Wilson, page 89.)


Sounds good for our French and Spanish DF13-.

Our DF13- DF63- English sort of spoil the tidiness of it, however.

Still, we know that persons of British Isles ancestry far and away outnumber persons of continental ancestry in FTDNA's database.

Thoughts?


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 06, 2012, 10:38:28 PM
Mattox (Motteux) of France just got a DF63- result. So there's a Frenchman in the DF13- DF63- category now.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: bmattox on August 07, 2012, 10:25:14 AM
Hello everyone, I am the elusive Mattox/Maddox (France). I just learned today that I am DF63-. I am also DF13-. This is my first post on this forum. Is there another logical sequence of testing that would be beneficial for me to undertake or do we just wait to see the results of others testing this subclade. Thank you.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 07, 2012, 10:57:49 AM
Right now you are "tested up" with regard to SNPs. The only thing that might help further would be an upgrade to 111 markers. But that would be above and beyond the call of duty, so that's up to you.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on August 07, 2012, 11:18:44 AM
Hello everyone, I am the elusive Mattox/Maddox (France). I just learned today that I am DF63-. I am also DF13-. This is my first post on this forum. Is there another logical sequence of testing that would be beneficial for me to undertake or do we just wait to see the results of others testing this subclade. Thank you.

Hi BMattox(Maddox)

I am interested in what worldnames.publicprofiler.org/ is showing for both spellings of your surname. The latter(Maddox) has substantial UK presence and Mattox has a nice size core in then West Midlands. Any notes you could provide would be appreciated.

MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: bmattox on August 07, 2012, 11:45:19 AM
Yes there appears to be a larger concentration of the name and it's derivatives in the Mid Lands, Wales and South East Ireland. The french connection comes for a letter received in 1920 and reads as follows:

Letter From Mark Maddox, 1920
Mark Maddox was born in February 1844 in Union County, NC. He died Dec. 21, 1929 in Warrenville, SC. Mark was the son of John Maddox, prior to his death a granddaughter asked him several questions about the origin of the family. Mark was the son of John Maddox, born 1805 in Lancaster County, SC; died 1876 in Covington, Ga. John was the son of Samuel Maddox, 1775-1850, who resided in Lancaster SC and Union County, NC.
Questions and Answers:
Where did the Maddoxes come from? France.
What is the name of the one farthest back you know of? My great grandfather’s name was Jim Maddox.
Who did he marry? Don’t know.
Where did his wife come from? France.
What was the name of your grandfather who fought in the Revolution? Samuel Maddox.
Did the Maddoxes first come from France when your great grandfather Jim Maddox, settled in Yorktown, Va. in 1767? Yes.
Do you know what pat of France they came from? No.
Or why they left? Was it religion? They came here to go to Canada but about that time England taken Canada from France and they just settled in Yorktown.
Do you know what ship they came in or where they landed? At Yorktown on the York River. Don’t know ship name.
What was your father’s name? John Maddox.

As you can see all the names are Anglicized, which has proven very confusing as to the French connection. Anyway, those are his words and that is what I am basing the French Connection on for lack of refutatory evidence to the contrary.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 07, 2012, 11:51:22 AM
Bob,

You mentioned the surname Motteux to me, which was one of the French Huguenot surnames at Manakin Town in Virginia, as I recall.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 07, 2012, 12:08:09 PM
I'm not trying to make a case for France, but it is interesting that Berry is also one of our DF13- DF63- guys, and at least one source, The Huguenots of Devonshire, by Inkerman Rogers, lists Berry as a surname brought to England by French Huguenots.

http://lerhistory.tripod.com/devhugs2.html (http://lerhistory.tripod.com/devhugs2.html)

Of course, our Berry lists an mdka in Yorkshire, so perhaps it is a different Berry family, but it's worth considering.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: bmattox on August 07, 2012, 12:17:11 PM
Yes, there was a Benjamin Motteux that arrived in Charleston, SC in 1724. From the book "North American Wills Registered in London, 1611-1857":

Benjamin Motteux of London, jeweller, but late of SC, bachelor. Will 1 Jan. 1724 pr. 14 Dec. 1725 by brother John Anthony Motteux of London, merchant.

It was common for wills to be drawn up prior to ones departure to the Americas. This Motteux family has it's heritage based in Rouen, France and they were Huguenots who left there for London in the late 17ty century. However, I have no verifiable evidence for this connection.

There is another connection in 1714 but does not match the letter of Mark Maddox:

Passenger and Immigration Lists Index, 1500s-1900s
about Wm Mattock
Name:   Wm Mattock
Year:   1714
Place:   Virginia
Source Publication Code:   6223
Primary Immigrant:   Mattock, Wm
Annotation:   Abstracts of Virginia Land Office patent books 9 through 14, covering the early decades of the eighteenth century. Includes numerous references to land patented by "French refugees," the Protestants (Huguenots) who fled France after Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes.
Source Bibliography:   NUGENT, NELL MARION, abstractor. Cavaliers and Pioneers: Abstracts of Virginia Land Patents and Grants. Vol. 3: 1695-1732. Richmond [VA]: Virginia State Library, 1979. 578p. Indexed.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 07, 2012, 01:18:54 PM
Hey!

I finally heard from argiedude, Ysearch X56RP.

He has ordered DF13. Given his bizarre haplotype and his ancestral origin in northern Italy, this should be interesting.

care to guess how it will come out?


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on August 07, 2012, 01:20:02 PM
Wow, great info BobM. Thanks for the overview. It is interesting what information is available to help nail down family history. Thanks.

MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 07, 2012, 05:27:43 PM
Hey!

I finally heard from argiedude, Ysearch X56RP.

He has ordered DF13. Given his bizarre haplotype and his ancestral origin in northern Italy, this should be interesting.

care to guess how it will come out?
His haplotype is worth a DF13-.  Has he ever had his L21 test confirmed?  Maybe he'll prove Maliclavelli right.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 07, 2012, 06:43:09 PM
Hey!

I finally heard from argiedude, Ysearch X56RP.

He has ordered DF13. Given his bizarre haplotype and his ancestral origin in northern Italy, this should be interesting.

care to guess how it will come out?
His haplotype is worth a DF13-.  Has he ever had his L21 test confirmed?  Maybe he'll prove Maliclavelli right.

Well, he has an L21+ test result, but I don't think there's ever been a second opinion on it.

He gave the go ahead to test him for DF63 if he gets a DF13- result.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on August 09, 2012, 02:07:48 PM
I've contacted two people and suggested DF13 testing based on Alex Williamson's new phylogenetic trees for the L21 project. They are both in varieties with Irish people in them, so it will be interesting to see the result if they agree to test.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 09, 2012, 04:24:06 PM
So far, we have had over forty Irish DF13 results, all positive, but we still have a lot of Irish guys who have not tested for DF13. I'm not including all the Irish guys in the DF13+ subclades already.

And we have some more Irish guys awaiting DF13 results. Maybe a negative or two will show up.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 09, 2012, 04:36:02 PM
So far, we have had over forty Irish DF13 results, all positive, but we still have a lot of Irish guys who have not tested for DF13. I'm not including all the Irish guys in the DF13+ subclades already.

And we have some more Irish guys awaiting DF13 results. Maybe a negative or two will show up.

As a kind of aside, I want to say that waiting for dna test results drives me bonkers, whether it's my own or in cases like this in which I am interested.

The last few days FTDNA hasn't posted that many SNP test results. It's really aggravating (but I'm not blaming them).

Phew! (Shaking my head.)

Hopefully, we'll get a bunch to talk about this evening.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on August 09, 2012, 05:09:34 PM
So far, we have had over forty Irish DF13 results, all positive, but we still have a lot of Irish guys who have not tested for DF13. I'm not including all the Irish guys in the DF13+ subclades already.

And we have some more Irish guys awaiting DF13 results. Maybe a negative or two will show up.

As a kind of aside, I want to say that waiting for dna test results drives me bonkers, whether it's my own or in cases like this in which I am interested.

The last few days FTDNA hasn't posted that many SNP test results. It's really aggravating (but I'm not blaming them).

Phew! (Shaking my head.)

Hopefully, we'll get a bunch to talk about this evening.

I know the feeling! Roma was one of the first DF13- results, and I believe he ordered DF63 the same week... Still no result. What I remind myself is that we've been spoiled by having SNP results come long before their due date for a long time. There are lots of results I'm waiting for, and it's usually the first thing I check in the morning (the results get posted while I'm asleep, as I'm living in Europe).

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 09, 2012, 07:04:25 PM
So far, we have had over forty Irish DF13 results, all positive, but we still have a lot of Irish guys who have not tested for DF13. I'm not including all the Irish guys in the DF13+ subclades already.

And we have some more Irish guys awaiting DF13 results. Maybe a negative or two will show up.

As a kind of aside, I want to say that waiting for dna test results drives me bonkers, whether it's my own or in cases like this in which I am interested.

The last few days FTDNA hasn't posted that many SNP test results. It's really aggravating (but I'm not blaming them).

Phew! (Shaking my head.)

Hopefully, we'll get a bunch to talk about this evening.

I know the feeling! Roma was one of the first DF13- results, and I believe he ordered DF63 the same week... Still no result. What I remind myself is that we've been spoiled by having SNP results come long before their due date for a long time. There are lots of results I'm waiting for, and it's usually the first thing I check in the morning (the results get posted while I'm asleep, as I'm living in Europe).

-Kai


Lately they've been posting them while I'm asleep, too, and I live on the eastern coast of the USA.

It used to be the results would start appearing about 1800 my time, but lately that's not happening.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: df.reynolds on August 09, 2012, 11:05:14 PM
Pere Roma just showed up as DF63+


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 09, 2012, 11:23:55 PM
Pere Roma just showed up as DF63+
Very cool. I'll update the L21 file while I watch the game. I just scraped through the Cumberland Gap project. It's pretty good sized.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2012, 12:13:42 AM
Pere Roma just showed up as DF63+
Very cool. I'll update the L21 file while I watch the game. I just scraped through the Cumberland Gap project. It's pretty good sized.

Sutherland got a DF63+, too, so both of our Scot DF13- are DF63+.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2012, 12:17:31 AM
A number of guys got moved to the DF13+ category, including Bernard.

No Irish DF13- yet, although a few Irish guys went DF13+ this evening.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: df.reynolds on August 10, 2012, 12:20:07 AM
No Irish DF13- yet, although a few Irish guys went DF13+ this evening.

Be kind of convenient if it stayed that way! :)

--david


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2012, 12:30:05 AM
No Irish DF13- yet, although a few Irish guys went DF13+ this evening.

Be kind of convenient if it stayed that way! :)

--david

Yes, it would.

Our potential Welsh L21- Z245+ L459+ is enough to worry about! :-)


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on August 10, 2012, 04:49:08 AM
Finally, some new results!

229805 Bøen came back as DF13+, giving variety X63-1011 a shot to the bow. But at least now we know. :)
Still waiting for the results for Broom.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 10, 2012, 08:54:28 AM
I am glad that Argiedude is going to be tested for DF13 and, if negative, for DF63. But I am asking why nobody tried to test these Kellaways or Westwood. Difficult to find Richter, tested by SMGF and put on ySearch by me, and Soncina, who never replied to my letters.

International 11
99973 Kellaway England R1b1a2
13 24 10 10 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 31 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 21 31 15-15-16-17                                    
32501 Kellaway England R1b1
13 24 10 10 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 31 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 21 31 15-15-16-17                                    
22356 Kelleway United Kingdom R1b1
13 24 10 10 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 31 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 21 31 15-15-16-17                                    
Westwood
13 24 10 10 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 31 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 21 31 15-15-16-17 11 11 19 23 16 13 16 17 37 39 12 12
Richter
13 23 10 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 18 30 15-15-16-17 11 11 19 23 16 14 12 14 13 11 11 13 24 10 13 12 30 24
Argiedude
13 25 10 11 11-11 13 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 20 31 15-15-17-17 10 12 19-23 15 14 18 16 38 38 11 12
Soncina
13 24 10 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 15-15-16-16 10 10 19-23 16 13 16 17 36 37 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 16 10 12 21 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

They have some marker values in common, not only DYS19=10, and some of them DYS385=11-11, but also the high value of DYS448, modal 19, a mutation to 18 in Richter and Maddox, but Argiedude 20 and Kellaway 21 which presuppose 20. Also the low value of DYS607 (14/13) is interesting.

I make you note that the unique so far found DF13- DF63- have the rare amongst R-L21 DYS19=13 and the very rare DYS388=13 and DYS426=11 (Argiedude 13):

Bb. L21* (DF13-, DF63-)
N80403 Thomas Bishop, c. 1770, London, England England R1b1a2a1a1b4
13 24 13 10 12-14 12 13 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 30 15-15-17-17 10 11 19-22 15 14 18 17 36-40 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 24-24 17 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 14 11 11 12 12                                                                                        
94428 Francis Meadows, b. c. 1754, Rockingham County, VA United Kingdom R1b1a2a1a1b4
13 24 13 11 12-14 12 13 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 29 15-15-17-17 10 11 19-22 15 14 18 17 36-38 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 24-24 17 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 14 11 11 12 12                                                                                        
236395 Thomas Bishop, born c. 1750 England R1b1a2
13 24 13 11 12-14 12 13 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 30 15-15-17-17 10 11 19-22 15 14 18 17 36-40 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 24-24 17 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 14 11 11 12 12                                                                                        
37201 John Berry d.1502 Almondbury, W.Yorks, England England R1b1a2a1a1b4
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 15 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 15-15-17-17 11 11 19-23 16 14 18 16 37-39 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                        
25304 JAMES Maddox b.c. 1715 FRANCE_James France R1b1a2a1a1b4
13 24 14 11 13-14 11 12 11 13 13 30 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 18 29 14-14-15-17 11 11 19-23 16 15 17 17 37-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 15 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 10 11 12 12


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2012, 11:38:16 PM
Okay, Chavez is DF63+.

That's the last of our DF13- folks for now.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on August 10, 2012, 11:53:23 PM
Did I see it up to eight DF63+'s now?


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2012, 11:56:05 PM
Did I see it up to eight DF63+'s now?

That's right. Ten total, but you were observant to notice that there are two sets of close relatives.

DF63+ is growing.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on August 11, 2012, 08:34:55 AM
Okay, Chavez is DF63+.

That's the last of our DF13- folks for now.

I'm quite impressed that everyone we know of that is L21+/DF13- has tested for DF63. Didn't I put my money on Chavez being DF63+? ;-)

So far 33% of those tested DF13- are L21** and 67% are DF63+. I find the L21** group very interesting. It be very important in understading the origins of L21. However, with only four results, it's not very useful yet.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 11, 2012, 10:03:03 AM
His haplotype is worth a DF13-.  Has he ever had his L21 test confirmed?  Maybe he'll prove Maliclavelli right.
[/quote]
Well, he has an L21+ test result, but I don't think there's ever been a second opinion on it.
[/quote]

Rich, I have written tons of letters about this and probably Mike remembers them very well.
About R-L21 I have said that in Italy it practically doesn’t exist, being many of the few found so far of French origin, above all the Piedmontese ones, and this demonstrates that all the migrations from Central Europe to Italy didn’t happen. But the case of Argiedude, whose ancestor came from Como (Italian Lake District), and now probably also Soncina and a few others, should have had some deepen exam, and I asked that before some Italian relatives of Argiedude were tested and also were clarified his link with Kellaway/Westwood. But, once demonstrated his Italian origin, his haplotype, so different from all the other R-L21-s, could be also the witness that also R-L21 was born in the Italian Refugium and were a remnant of the first people of this haplogroup born in the Italian Lake District. Of course the rarity of this haplogroup in Italy demonstrates that the migration was from Italy to Central-North Europe and that there wasn’t return. When I wrote on Rootsweb (before the end of 2007) I remembered the Amsbury Archer, who had drunk the Alpine water.

Why did Mike say that the test of Argiedude could be a proof in favour of my theories? Because, if he were R-L21**, he would demonstrate, once more, that Italy gets the most ancient haplotypes of every haplogroup, not only R1b1, R1b1a2, R-L23/L150-, R-L51, many R-P312, the whole R-U152, but also of the “not-Italian” R-L21.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on August 11, 2012, 10:46:27 AM
Did I see it up to eight DF63+'s now?

That's right. Ten total, but you were observant to notice that there are two sets of close relatives.

DF63+ is growing.
I wasnt that smart, I just searched the RL21 SNP report page and it showed only eight. lol

Which brings me to test the age of DF63 with 67 markers (Ages now seems to extend farther back than using 111 markers).

YrsPerGen*   Count   Coalescence Age   Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   + - YBP   Founder's Age   Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   + - YBP   Max   LTSD   VAR
30   N=683   Clade A: L21 All  GA Coal.=   126.7   32.7   3,801.5   982.2   GA=   126.9   32.8   3,807.1   983.0   4,790.1   0.0   15.0

YrsPerGen*   Count   Coalescence Age   Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   + - YBP   Founder's Age   Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   + - YBP   Max   LTSD   VAR
30   N=8   Clade B: DF63+  GB Coal.=   85.9   27.0   2,577.6   808.8   GB=   98.2   28.8   2,945.8   864.6   3,810.4   0.0   10.2
67(56)Markers      Sheet  Mutation Rate:   0.11821


MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 11, 2012, 11:15:15 AM


Rich, I have written tons of letters about this and probably Mike remembers them very well.
About R-L21 I have said that in Italy it practically doesn’t exist, being many of the few found so far of French origin, above all the Piedmontese ones, and this demonstrates that all the migrations from Central Europe to Italy didn’t happen. But the case of Argiedude, whose ancestor came from Como (Italian Lake District), and now probably also Soncina and a few others, should have had some deepen exam, and I asked that before some Italian relatives of Argiedude were tested and also were clarified his link with Kellaway/Westwood. But, once demonstrated his Italian origin, his haplotype, so different from all the other R-L21-s, could be also the witness that also R-L21 was born in the Italian Refugium and were a remnant of the first people of this haplogroup born in the Italian Lake District. Of course the rarity of this haplogroup in Italy demonstrates that the migration was from Italy to Central-North Europe and that there wasn’t return. When I wrote on Rootsweb (before the end of 2007) I remembered the Amsbury Archer, who had drunk the Alpine water.

Why did Mike say that the test of Argiedude could be a proof in favour of my theories? Because, if he were R-L21**, he would demonstrate, once more, that Italy gets the most ancient haplotypes of every haplogroup, not only R1b1, R1b1a2, R-L23/L150-, R-L51, many R-P312, the whole R-U152, but also of the “not-Italian” R-L21.


I don't know, Gioiello.

I think I tried to contact one of the Kellaways with 19=10 way back when argiedude got his L21+ result. I'll try again. From what I saw in Ysearch, if I remember rightly, some of them were saying the name was originally French, Caillouet, or something like that. It sounds or looks like a version of Callaway to me, though.



Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 11, 2012, 12:22:46 PM
I don't know, Gioiello.
I think I tried to contact one of the Kellaways with 19=10 way back when argiedude got his L21+ result. I'll try again. From what I saw in Ysearch, if I remember rightly, some of them were saying the name was originally French, Caillouet, or something like that. It sounds or looks like a version of Callaway to me, though.

A French origin is likable, above all if they say this. In fact these Kallaways are totally different from the other Kallaways of the project and a French origin would be closer to the probable origin of the haplogroup. See also the French amongst the R-L21 (xDF13,DF63) I posted above:

25304 JAMES Maddox b.c. 1715 FRANCE_James France R1b1a2a1a1b4
13 24 14 11 13-14 11 12 11 13 13 30 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 18 29 14-14-15-17 11 11 19-23 16 15 17 17 37-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 15 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 10 11 12 12

He is very different from the others.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 11, 2012, 12:44:42 PM
The Kallaway on ySearch, and who say to be of French origin, aren’t ours. Anyway look at this hapotype:

14 23 15 10 13-14 11 12 12 12 11 28 16 9-9 11 11 23 16 21 29 13 14 14 14

Difficult to say which haplogroup it is. But it has some points of contact with our French R-L21 (xDF13,DF63).

Of course we should test it for a SNPs test, but this to say that there are many haplotypes which we don’t know and that will be able to say something fundamental in our researches.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 11, 2012, 12:50:39 PM
The Kallaway on ySearch, and who say to be of French origin, aren’t ours. Anyway look at this hapotype:

14 23 15 10 13-14 11 12 12 12 11 28 16 9-9 11 11 23 16 21 29 13 14 14 14

Difficult to say which haplogroup it is. But it has some points of contact with our French R-L21 (xDF13,DF63).

Of course we should test it for a SNPs test, but this to say that there are many haplotypes which we don’t know and that will be able to say something fundamental in our researches.


You're right. The one with 19=10 and 385=11-11 is Ysearch GPYZW and lists England as place of origin. I'll email him.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 11, 2012, 12:52:49 PM
The Kallaway on ySearch, and who say to be of French origin, aren’t ours. Anyway look at this hapotype:

14 23 15 10 13-14 11 12 12 12 11 28 16 9-9 11 11 23 16 21 29 13 14 14 14

Difficult to say which haplogroup it is. But it has some points of contact with our French R-L21 (xDF13,DF63).

Of course we should test it for a SNPs test, but this to say that there are many haplotypes which we don’t know and that will be able to say something fundamental in our researches.


Of course this is haplogroup G.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 11, 2012, 12:57:09 PM
The Kallaway on ySearch, and who say to be of French origin, aren’t ours. Anyway look at this hapotype:

14 23 15 10 13-14 11 12 12 12 11 28 16 9-9 11 11 23 16 21 29 13 14 14 14

Difficult to say which haplogroup it is. But it has some points of contact with our French R-L21 (xDF13,DF63).

Of course we should test it for a SNPs test, but this to say that there are many haplotypes which we don’t know and that will be able to say something fundamental in our researches.


Of course this is haplogroup G.

I was going from memory, and I knew I remembered seeing something connecting the name Caillouet with Kellaway. I just didn't recall the exact connection.

Now I have emailed the right Kellaway, though, the one with Ysearch GPYZW.

I don't think I got a response a couple of years ago when I wrote, but we'll see how things go this time.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: jerome72 on August 22, 2012, 04:49:32 AM
Since a few weeks, there is no more new result DF13-?

At the moment: 352 DF13+ (96,17%) et 14 DF13- (3,82%)


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 22, 2012, 09:02:15 AM
Since a few weeks, there is no more new result DF13-?

At the moment: 352 DF13+ (96,17%) et 14 DF13- (3,82%)

No. I've been hoping for some, but no new DF13- results lately.



Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on August 22, 2012, 01:43:32 PM
Since a few weeks, there is no more new result DF13-?

At the moment: 352 DF13+ (96,17%) et 14 DF13- (3,82%)

No. I've been hoping for some, but no new DF13- results lately.

I'm working on it, contacting people predicted by Mikewww and Alex Williamson to be DF13-. :-)

There are actually 16 DF13- results, atleast that I know of. But only 12 different surnames.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 23, 2012, 12:59:29 AM
Tupper, kit 26883, came up DF13- this morning. His mdka came from Sussex in England. Tupper joined the R-L21 Plus Project back in 2009 based on an L21+ result from 23andMe.

Another DF13- from the east side of England. Hmmm . . .

Hopefully, he'll test for DF63.

Every time I hear or see the surname Tupper, I think of a scene from the 1951 version of A Christmas Carol, which starred Alistair Sim as Ebenezer Scrooge. In the party scene at Scrooge's nephew's house, a young woman, mostly in jest, reproaches a young man with the line, "Mr. Tupper! You are incorrigible!" (or something very like that).

Don't know why that stuck with me, but it did. Well, I've seen that film probably a hundred times. That might be a factor. :-)


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on August 23, 2012, 04:13:51 AM
Tupper, kit 26883, came up DF13- this morning. His mdka came from Sussex in England. Tupper joined the R-L21 Plus Project back in 2009 based on an L21+ result from 23andMe.

Another DF13- from the east side of England. Hmmm . . .

Hopefully, he'll test for DF63.

Woohoo! Another DF13- bringing the total to 17. Let's hope 23andMe had that L21+ result right. I'm starting to get paranoid after the Jones incident. I really hope he tests for DF63. And I really hope he tests positive for it as a DF63- result would leave L459 and Z245 and we could possibly have the same mess once again... ;-)

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on August 23, 2012, 08:29:15 AM
Tupper, kit 26883, came up DF13- this morning. His mdka came from Sussex in England. Tupper joined the R-L21 Plus Project back in 2009 based on an L21+ result from 23andMe.

Another DF13- from the east side of England. Hmmm . . .

Hopefully, he'll test for DF63.

26883 Tupper is he L21+ somewhere else as he hasnt tested positive even for P312?

MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 23, 2012, 09:46:43 AM
Tupper, kit 26883, came up DF13- this morning. His mdka came from Sussex in England. Tupper joined the R-L21 Plus Project back in 2009 based on an L21+ result from 23andMe.

Another DF13- from the east side of England. Hmmm . . .

Hopefully, he'll test for DF63.

26883 Tupper is he L21+ somewhere else as he hasnt tested positive even for P312?

MJost

You missed the part in my post where I said he tested L21+ with 23andMe.

Tupper has ordered DF63.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on August 23, 2012, 09:50:58 AM
ahhhh i c.... whoops... Thanks.

MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 23, 2012, 09:59:28 AM
ahhhh i c.... whoops... Thanks.

MJost

No problem. I do that kind of thing all the time, especially when I am in a hurry.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: bmattox on August 23, 2012, 10:07:14 AM
Colleagues, I just learned that there is another Maddox who recently received DNA test results. He is a match to me. His kit number is 226438. He has not submitted any information that I can find about him or his family tree? Is there a way to contact him? Thanks. Bob.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 23, 2012, 10:10:24 AM
Colleagues, I just learned that there is another Maddox who recently received DNA test results. He is a match to me. His kit number is 226438. He has not submitted any information that I can find about him or his family tree? Is there a way to contact him? Thanks. Bob.

Hi, Bob.

If you click on his name on your Y-DNA Matches page, his profile will come up, including his email address. Please encourage him to join the R-L21 plus Project.

That's a very close match at 67 markers. Got to be a relative.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 23, 2012, 08:14:11 PM
Colleagues, I just learned that there is another Maddox who recently received DNA test results. He is a match to me. His kit number is 226438. He has not submitted any information that I can find about him or his family tree? Is there a way to contact him? Thanks. Bob.

Bob, can you ask the Maddox project admin to turn on the Y DNA SNP report in the GAP tool under project administration / public web site / site configuration?


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: bmattox on August 24, 2012, 11:10:52 AM
Done. Also, the new Mattox is a cousin of mine who now lives in Mississippi. I knew of him before he was tested and this just confirms our relationship. Thanks.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 24, 2012, 12:51:40 PM
Done. Also, the new Mattox is a cousin of mine who now lives in Mississippi. I knew of him before he was tested and this just confirms our relationship. Thanks.

Who are your closest matches other than your cousin? I'm having a hard time coming up with much in the L21 confirmed file.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: bmattox on August 24, 2012, 02:09:46 PM
I have two more cousins who match with the Mattox/Maddox last name. At the 67 marker level there is William McKeich (five steps away, from Alexander McKeich, Scotland, 1755) and Michael Davis (seven steps away). At the 37 marker, I have Michael Perkins (four steps way, from Richard Perkins, Herefordshire, England 1695).


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 25, 2012, 12:18:35 AM
I have two more cousins who match with the Mattox/Maddox last name. At the 67 marker level there is William McKeich (five steps away, from Alexander McKeich, Scotland, 1755) and Michael Davis (seven steps away). At the 37 marker, I have Michael Perkins (four steps way, from Richard Perkins, Herefordshire, England 1695).

ahh! I shall look at the Perkins DNA project. It's one I didn't have on my list.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 25, 2012, 12:32:18 AM
Got a new DF13- just now: Broom, kit N11946. There are two more Brooms in the R-L21 Plus Project, kits 12311 and 14194, that are close matches at 67 and beyond to him and each other, so they're all in category "B. L21+, DF13- (If you can, test for DF63 status)" on the project's Y-DNA Results pages now.

As far as I can tell, none of them can get his y line beyond North America.

I don't know how dependable what I found on the web is, but from what I saw Broom is supposed to be a surname that was brought to England by the Normans and was originally de la Brome and de Brom. Like I said, I don't know how reliable that is or if it even applies to this particular family.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on August 25, 2012, 03:05:52 PM
Got a new DF13- just now: Broom, kit N11946. There are two more Brooms in the R-L21 Plus Project, kits 12311 and 14194, that are close matches at 67 and beyond to him and each other, so they're all in category "B. L21+, DF13- (If you can, test for DF63 status)" on the project's Y-DNA Results pages now.

Fantastic! I contacted the Broom project admin and suggested DF13 testing based on Mikewww's variety X63-913, which is based on Roma's DF13- result. Looks like this variety is for real. The Broom project admin told me they would test for DF63 if the test came back DF13-. I'll send him an email straight away.

Mikewww: Well done! :)

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 25, 2012, 08:53:41 PM
Got a new DF13- just now: Broom, kit N11946. There are two more Brooms in the R-L21 Plus Project, kits 12311 and 14194, that are close matches at 67 and beyond to him and each other, so they're all in category "B. L21+, DF13- (If you can, test for DF63 status)" on the project's Y-DNA Results pages now.

Fantastic! I contacted the Broom project admin and suggested DF13 testing based on Mikewww's variety X63-913, which is based on Roma's DF13- result. Looks like this variety is for real. The Broom project admin told me they would test for DF63 if the test came back DF13-. I'll send him an email straight away.

Mikewww: Well done! :)

-Kai

Good. I'm glad they're going to do the DF63 test.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on August 26, 2012, 09:32:06 AM
I don't know how dependable what I found on the web is, but from what I saw Broom is supposed to be a surname that was brought to England by the Normans and was originally de la Brome and de Brom. Like I said, I don't know how reliable that is or if it even applies to this particular family.

This is what they told me as well.
Quote
The chronicles of England show the early records of the name Broome to be derived from the Norman race. The name appears in England from about 1066 A.D.

Quote
... the first record of the name Broome was found in Kent where they had been granted lands by William the Conqueror for their assistance at the Battle of Hastings in 1066 A.D.
and

Quote
The surname Broome emerged as a notable family name in the county of Kent. The family name claims direct descendancy from the Earls of Anjou who changed their name to Broome after a pilgrimage to the crusades and the Holy Land. Fulk, Earl of Anjou, having worn a sprig of Broome as a symbol of humility took the name of the plant as his name. Fulk was father of Geoffrey Plantagenet. The first on record was Sir William de Broome, standard bearer to King Edward II of England, Thomas Brome was secretary to King Henry VI, and Henry Broome followed the Earl of Richmond and died in his cause at Bosworth.

Like you, I can not guarantee that this is correct, but there sure seems to be ties to the Normans.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 26, 2012, 09:12:07 PM
The Broom with the DF13- result has ordered DF63.



Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on August 27, 2012, 07:13:03 AM
The Broom with the DF13- result has ordered DF63.
They are very excited with the DF13- result. :)

Would the other Broom kits with close GD's to that kit be accepted to the L21 project, or do you require a L21 or downstream positive SNP result? I'm thinking as Mike imports them to his spreadsheet anyways, it would be easier to have them in the project.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on August 27, 2012, 09:12:02 PM
The Broom with the DF13- result has ordered DF63.
They are very excited with the DF13- result. :)

Would the other Broom kits with close GD's to that kit be accepted to the L21 project, or do you require a L21 or downstream positive SNP result? I'm thinking as Mike imports them to his spreadsheet anyways, it would be easier to have them in the project.

-Kai

They would be accepted, as long as they are all close matches to the tested Brooms.

Having whole families in the project can be a little clumsy to organize, but I don't mind.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: hamish on August 29, 2012, 07:09:24 AM
Hello everyone,

A short introduction: my name is (Robert) Hamish Allan and my oldest known patrilineal ancestor is William Allan of Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland (married 1760; birthdate unknown).

I've just tested DF13- and ordered a test for DF63.

We're Scots as far back as records go, but there's a potential French connection in a family legend that should probably be taken with a pinch of salt.

Looking forward to getting to know you all!


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: erwangery on August 29, 2012, 09:23:53 AM
Welcome aboard!

How many of us have been tested DF13- so far?

Erwan Gery
fN66966  DF63+


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on August 29, 2012, 11:54:19 AM
Welcome aboard!

How many of us have been tested DF13- so far?

Erwan Gery
fN66966  DF63+

Hi Erwan!

I have in my notes 19 L21+, DF13- results whereof 2 + 4 have the have the same surname or a very close GD indicating an NPE. So 15 different surnames.

Of the 19, 4 are DF63-, 12 are DF63+ and 3 have no DF63 result. I know at least 2 of the 3 latter have ordered DF63 (one of them is Hamish who posted right before you).

-Kai (191950 - Lowden - DF63+)


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 29, 2012, 01:23:49 PM
I have in my notes 19 L21+, DF13- results whereof 2 + 4 have the have the same surname or a very close GD indicating an NPE. So 15 different surnames.

K.O., am I missing any?

Here are the 8 that are L21+ DF13- that either are or probably are DF63-

f208171   Allan   R-L21*   X13 -unassigned   Scotland, Fife, Kilconquhar   L21+ DF13-   xx
f37201   Berry   R-L21**   X13 -unassigned   England, Yorkshire and Humber, West Yorkshire, Almondbury Huddersfield   L21+ DF13- DF63- L69- L192.1- 3c1g   15
f167223   LeBlanc   R-L21*   X13 -unassigned   France, Poitou-Charente, Vienne, Martaizé, Vienne   L21+ DF13-   xx
f25304   Maddox   R-L21**   X13 -unassigned   France   L21+ DF13- DF63-   25
f26883   Tupper   R-L21*   X13 -unassigned   England, South East, West Sussex, Bury   L21+ DF13-   xx
fN80403   Bishop   R-L21**   X13-1313   England, London   L21+ Z245+ L459+ DF13- DF63-   10
f94428   Meadows   R-L21**   X13-1313   UK   L21+ DF13- DF63-   7
f236395   zzzUnknown   R-L21**   X13-1313   England   L21+ DF13- DF63-   7


Maddox's GD is 25 @67 to the modal for the group above so we can see this is a diverse paragroup, not a single clade.  There is no single off-modal STR among all the people above.

Here's another three that cluster with them.

f99379   Edwards   R-L21   X13 -unassigned   Wales
f226438   Maddox   zzL21predicted   X13 -unassigned   zzzUnkOrigin
f176877   Wilson   zzL21predicted   X13-1313   zzzUnkOrigin




Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 29, 2012, 01:28:06 PM
Here is my expected DF63+ roll call.  Am I missing any here?  The key to the "predicted" DF63 is a confirmation that a Broom is DF63+. That hasn't happened yet, has it?  I expecting the Broom's result because of the off-modals they match with confirmed DF63+ Roma, but that's a tenuous grouping so we should make sure to watch the Broom folks.

f180338   Chavez   R-L21/DF63   X63 -unassigned   zzzUnkOrigin   DF63+   17
fN72406   Darke   R-L21/DF63   X63 -unassigned   England, London   DF63+ 3c1g   21
f49976   Franklin   R-L21   X63 -unassigned   England   L21+   15
f54798   Franklin   R-L21/DF63   X63 -unassigned   England   DF63+   14
f174870   Franklin   R-L21*   X63 -unassigned   England   L21+ DF13-   15
f81528   Franklin   R-L21   X63 -unassigned   zzzUnkOrigin   L21+   13
fB2414   Franklin?   R-L21/DF63   X63 -unassigned   England   DF63+   xx
fN66966   Gery   R-L21/DF63   X63 -unassigned   France, Bretagne, Finistère, Morlaix   DF63+ L69- L319.1- 3c1g   25
f127090   LeBlanc   R-L21/DF63   X63 -unassigned   France   DF63+   19
f191950   Lowden   R-L21/DF63   X63 -unassigned   Scotland, Tayside, Forfarshire, Dundee   DF63+ Z245+ L459+ L192.1-   15
f14713   Sutherland   R-L21/DF63   X63 -unassigned   Scotland, Lothian, Edinburgh   DF63+   14
f15536   Broom   zzL21predicted   X63-913   England      0
f34193   Broom   zzL21predicted   X63-913   Scotland      1
fN11946   Broom   R-L21*   X63-913   Scotland   L21+ DF13-   0
f154024   Broom   zzL21predicted   X63-913   UK      1
f12311   Broom   R-L21   X63-913   UK   L21+   2
f14194   Broom   R-L21   X63-913   zzzUnkOrigin   L21+   1
f47769   Broom   zzL21predicted   X63-913   zzzUnkOrigin      1
f156866   Broom   zzL21predicted   X63-913   zzzUnkOrigin      2
f12380   Broome   zzL21predicted   X63-913   England      2
f208546   Hendrix   zzL21predicted   X63-913   zzzUnkOrigin      0
f158115   McBroom   zzL21predicted   X63-913   England      1
f112070   McBroom   zzL21predicted   X63-913   Scotland      1
f171640   McBroom   zzL21predicted   X63-913   zzzUnkOrigin      4
f232541   Roma   R-L21/DF63   X63-913   Spain   DF63+   12
f8042   Sims   R-L21   X63-913   UK   L21+   24
f59963   Sinclair   zzL21predicted   X63-913   Scotland      15


If the above holds, DF63 is not all young. Sims is another key guy to test.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on August 29, 2012, 01:59:45 PM
Hi Mike,

Here is my list:

DF13-, DF63-:
 37201 - Berry - England
N80403 - Bishop - England
 94428 - Meadows - USA
 25304 - Maddox - France

DF13-, DF63+:
191950 - Lowden - Scotland
N66966 - Gery - France
N72406 - Darke - England?
 54798 - Franklin - England
174870 - Franklin - England
 49976 - Franklin - England
 B2414 - (Franklin) - England
127090 - LeBlanc - France
167223 - LeBlanc - France
232541 - Roma - Spain?
 14713 - Sutherland - Scotland
180338 - Chavez - Spain

DF13-, DF63 unknown:
 26883 - Tupper - England
N11946 - Broom - England - DF63 ordered
208171 - Allan - Scotland - DF63 ordered


I've assumed that both LeBlancs are DF63, other than that, everything seems to match up. Broom's DF63 test will be batched today.

As there are so few L21** results, I suspect both DF13 and DF63 are really old.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on August 29, 2012, 03:14:01 PM

As there are so few L21** results, I suspect both DF13 and DF63 are really old.

-Kai
Ok, I just ran my mod of MikeW's estimator with Ken's Gen111T  at 67 markers for the DF63's Use the Intraclade Founders for the True Age of DF63 .

YrsPerGen*   Count   IntraClade Coalescence Age   Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   + - YBP   VARP   SD
30   N=15   Clade A: DF63+ w/L21Prdctd  GA Coal.=   76.8   25.6   2,304.5   767.6   9.0   3.0
YrsPerGen*   Count   IntraClade Coalescence Age   Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   + - YBP   VARP   SD
30   N=683   Clade B: L21  GB Coal.=   127.7   33.0   3,829.9   989.6   15.0   3.9

Founder's Age   Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   + - YBP   Max   VAR   SD
GA=   82.3   26.5   2,469.1   794.6   3,263.7   9.7   3.1
Founder's Age   Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   + - YBP   Max   VAR   DP
GB=   127.8   33.0   3,835.5   990.3   4,825.8   15.0   3.9


67(56)Markers      Sheet  Mutation Rate:   0.11733   STRs not used: 385,389i,459,464,CDY
            
YrsPerGen*   TRUE MRCA   InterClade AB Founder   Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   + - YBP   PooledVar   Pooled SD
30   Pooled SD   Interclade GAB: L21* for DF63+ w/L21Prdctd & L21   124.7   41.7   3,741.7   1,252.4   24.0   4.9


I used these HTs:

f180338   Chavez   R-L21/DF63
fN72406   Darke   R-L21/DF63
f49976   Franklin   R-L21
f54798   Franklin   R-L21/DF63
f174870   Franklin   R-L21*
f81528   Franklin   R-L21
fN66966   Gery   R-L21/DF63
f127090   LeBlanc   R-L21/DF63
f191950   Lowden   R-L21/DF63
f14713   Sutherland   R-L21/DF63
fN11946   Broom   R-L21*
f12311   Broom   R-L21
f14194   Broom   R-L21
f232541   Roma   R-L21/DF63
f8042   Sims   R-L21


MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: hamish on August 29, 2012, 03:56:41 PM

Mike, may I ask how you came to consider me likely DF63- and Sims likely DF63+?

Here are the 8 that are L21+ DF13- that either are or probably are DF63-

f208171   Allan   R-L21*   X13 -unassigned   Scotland, Fife, Kilconquhar   L21+ DF13-   xx
...


Here is my expected DF63+ roll call.

...
f8042   Sims   R-L21   X63-913   UK   L21+   24
...


I ask because he and I form a reasonably tight STR cluster, at least at 37 markers...



Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on August 30, 2012, 05:21:38 AM
MJost:
Thank you for crunching the numbers. I believe the predicted age of DF63 will increase as we find more kits positive for it, but still, I wonder why there are so few L21** kits. There are some pending DF13 tests based on Alex Williamson's predictions, so I think we will know more in a months time.

Mike:
51598 - Franklin came in DF63+ recently. No surprise there. I'll ask him to join the L21 project.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on August 30, 2012, 09:29:51 AM
Kai,

Yes the founders age may prove to extend further out with more haplotypes. So keep recruiting. I note that using 67 markers vs 111 appears that the smaller length and with the associated marker mutation rates cause the overall age to be even older than the 111 marker age.

Plus there maybe a SNP above DF63 looking at the age results.

MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: hamish on September 02, 2012, 07:08:33 PM
Hello everyone, I am the elusive Mattox/Maddox (France). I just learned today that I am DF63-. I am also DF13-. This is my first post on this forum. Is there another logical sequence of testing that would be beneficial for me to undertake or do we just wait to see the results of others testing this subclade. Thank you.
Right now you are "tested up" with regard to SNPs. The only thing that might help further would be an upgrade to 111 markers. But that would be above and beyond the call of duty, so that's up to you.
I've got a DF63 on order and was considering the possibility of a negative result (which would put me in the same position as Mattox). What about L192.1? I gather we don't have anyone in the project positive for that -- do we know the haplotype at all?


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: df.reynolds on September 02, 2012, 07:34:38 PM
Hello everyone, I am the elusive Mattox/Maddox (France). I just learned today that I am DF63-. I am also DF13-. This is my first post on this forum. Is there another logical sequence of testing that would be beneficial for me to undertake or do we just wait to see the results of others testing this subclade. Thank you.
Right now you are "tested up" with regard to SNPs. The only thing that might help further would be an upgrade to 111 markers. But that would be above and beyond the call of duty, so that's up to you.
I've got a DF63 on order and was considering the possibility of a negative result (which would put me in the same position as Mattox). What about L192.1? I gather we don't have anyone in the project positive for that -- do we know the haplotype at all?

There has been only one L192.1+ result, and all we know about the result is that it is also L21+. L192.1 has been extensively tested and is almost certainly private.

Note that it is positioned where it is in the tree due to lack of information; i.e., this is a sample that we do not know the DF13 status of.

--david


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: hamish on September 03, 2012, 05:45:43 PM
There has been only one L192.1+ result, and all we know about the result is that it is also L21+. L192.1 has been extensively tested and is almost certainly private.

Thanks, David. I asked Thomas Krahn what public info was available and he said it was found in kit N11793. Is there any way we can find out more about that kit, to determine the haplotype?


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: df.reynolds on September 03, 2012, 06:31:41 PM
There has been only one L192.1+ result, and all we know about the result is that it is also L21+. L192.1 has been extensively tested and is almost certainly private.

Thanks, David. I asked Thomas Krahn what public info was available and he said it was found in kit N11793. Is there any way we can find out more about that kit, to determine the haplotype?


Son of a gun. N11793 (Ash) is in the L21 project and is R-L513*.
L193-, L21+, L23+, L49+, L513+, L706.2-, L908-, L909-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-

L192 is right next to L193, so L192.1+ was probably recognized when Ash had the L193 test done; since he didn't actually order L192, it wouldn't show in his results.

Thanks Hamish!

--david


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Jdean on September 03, 2012, 07:47:39 PM
Mr L21** Berry (kit no. 37201) has a new SNP L1068

Wonder if this is going to be private or not !!


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on September 03, 2012, 07:48:26 PM
Mr L21** Berry (kit no. 37201) has a new SNP L1068

Wonder if this is going to be private or not !!

Hope not!

It would be nice if he and his brethren found a downstream home.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Jdean on September 03, 2012, 07:58:36 PM
Mr L21** Berry (kit no. 37201) has a new SNP L1068

Wonder if this is going to be private or not !!

Hope not!

It would be nice if he and his brethren found a downstream home.

Ah I think this SNP might be quite a bit above L21 and came out a while back.

I was just checking to see if the Scots Modal fellows results were out yet, should be soon.

Ho Hum


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 03, 2012, 09:22:59 PM
There has been only one L192.1+ result, and all we know about the result is that it is also L21+. L192.1 has been extensively tested and is almost certainly private.

Thanks, David. I asked Thomas Krahn what public info was available and he said it was found in kit N11793. Is there any way we can find out more about that kit, to determine the haplotype?

Son of a gun. N11793 (Ash) is in the L21 project and is R-L513*.
L193-, L21+, L23+, L49+, L513+, L706.2-, L908-, L909-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-

L192 is right next to L193, so L192.1+ was probably recognized when Ash had the L193 test done; since he didn't actually order L192, it wouldn't show in his results.

Thanks for turning this up. I had no idea this was in a L513. I have many of the L513+ in the L513 Combo project, including fN11793 Ash. He fits into a variety I call 513-1113-C-1 with a Gittens and a whole bunch of Fletcher folks.

L192.1 seems to be negative in other L513 people but his closest group has not tested.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: hamish on September 05, 2012, 05:32:48 AM
Thanks for turning this up. I had no idea this was in a L513. I have many of the L513+ in the L513 Combo project, including fN11793 Ash. He fits into a variety I call 513-1113-C-1 with a Gittens and a whole bunch of Fletcher folks.

L192.1 seems to be negative in other L513 people but his closest group has not tested.

Thomas Krahn's draft tree also has L9/L10 and L577 downstream of L513. Has anyone in Ash's cluster tested for those?


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 05, 2012, 11:39:08 AM
Thanks for turning this up. I had no idea this was in a L513. I have many of the L513+ in the L513 Combo project, including fN11793 Ash. He fits into a variety I call 513-1113-C-1 with a Gittens and a whole bunch of Fletcher folks.

L192.1 seems to be negative in other L513 people but his closest group has not tested.

Thomas Krahn's draft tree also has L9/L10 and L577 downstream of L513. Has anyone in Ash's cluster tested for those?

No. Here is our downstream SNP testing for the Ash/Gittens/Fletcher variety of 513-1113-C-1 people:

fN11793   Ash   R-L21/DF13/L513*   513-1113-C-1   L513+ L192.1+ L193- L706.2- L908- L909-
f143683   Gittens   R-L21/DF13/L513   513-1113-C-1   L513+ L459+ 3c1g


I would not predict a positive hit for L9, L10 and L557 (particularly L577) but you never know.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on September 07, 2012, 02:36:31 AM
Regarding the original topic... 208171 Allan is DF13-/DF63+. Welcome to the group, Hamish! :)

26883 - Tupper is DF13-/DF63-. Tupper is the third person from England to be L21** (of a total of five people). That's assuming the L21 result from 23andMe is correct.

Still waiting for Broom's DF63 test.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: hamish on September 07, 2012, 09:10:43 AM
Regarding the original topic... 208171 Allan is DF13-/DF63+. Welcome to the group, Hamish! :)

Thanks Kai! Looking forward to my markers over 37 coming back so that I can help explore more effectively. BTW, which is your kit no.?



Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: df.reynolds on September 11, 2012, 04:09:04 AM
Regarding the original topic... 208171 Allan is DF13-/DF63+. Welcome to the group, Hamish! :)

26883 - Tupper is DF13-/DF63-. Tupper is the third person from England to be L21** (of a total of five people). That's assuming the L21 result from 23andMe is correct.

Still waiting for Broom's DF63 test.

-Kai
I see Broom came back DF63+ today.

--david


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on September 11, 2012, 06:30:04 AM
Still waiting for Broom's DF63 test.

-Kai
I see Broom came back DF63+ today.

--david

Finally! It feels like a million years have passed since I recommended DF13 for them and hoped for a negative result. Waiting for these results is really boring, but it is great to see them come back as predicted (thanks, Mike!).

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: df.reynolds on September 11, 2012, 06:50:24 AM
Still waiting for Broom's DF63 test.

-Kai
I see Broom came back DF63+ today.

Finally! It feels like a million years have passed since I recommended DF13 for them and hoped for a negative result. Waiting for these results is really boring, but it is great to see them come back as predicted (thanks, Mike!).

-Kai

Kai, kudos on the great job you have done on driving the DF63 testing!

--david


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on September 11, 2012, 09:42:23 AM
Kai, kudos on the great job you have done on driving the DF63 testing!

--david

Thanks David! With all the great tools that are available, it is nothing but joy. And as the first step is testing for DF13, it easy to recruit people. It is the only SNP I know of where both a positive and a negative result is a good thing.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on September 28, 2012, 07:20:37 AM
Two new DF13- folks this morning: Schaefer, kit H1922 (Linz am Rhein, Germany), and McFarlin, kit N7446 (County Tyrone, Northern Ireland).


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on September 28, 2012, 09:25:22 AM
Two new DF13- folks this morning: Schaefer, kit H1922 (Linz am Rhein, Germany), and McFarlin, kit N7446 (County Tyrone, Northern Ireland).

Fantastic! Mike's variety 1415 was predicted DF63 in Alex's previous NJ tree, that's why I contacted McFarland/the MacFarlane DNA project and suggested DF13. That tree combined with Mike's data is incredibly valuable as a research tool. I'll contact them and suggest DF63 testing. Their closest on the current tree is f_147885 Laumenech R-L21 [zzL21unassigned] France. I'll have a look in the spreadsheets to see if he's a plausible DF13- candidate.

Does anyone know if Schaefer has tested L21+ elsewhere?

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: df.reynolds on September 28, 2012, 12:14:34 PM
Does anyone know if Schaefer has tested L21+ elsewhere?

-Kai
Yes, 23andME.

--david


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on September 29, 2012, 06:50:13 AM
Does anyone know if Schaefer has tested L21+ elsewhere?

-Kai
Yes, 23andME.

--david

Thanks, David! :)


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on September 29, 2012, 09:55:15 AM
N76446 McFarland has ordered DF63. I've also contacted 147885 Laumenech and suggested he finds out his DF13 status. Mike has him in a variety that is DF13+ (variety 1424), but in my eyes, he might as well be a distant relative of variety X13-1415. Only testing will tell.

Edit: From what I know, McFarland is the first DF13- from Northern Ireland, and Schaefer is the first from Germany.

-Kai



Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on September 29, 2012, 10:53:47 AM
Is McFarland a version of MacFarlane, as in Clan MacFarlane? Which claims descent from the original Earls of Lennox descending from an Anglo-Saxon but maybe now thought that the original Earls of Lennox were of Gaelic descent?

An early continetial connection?

MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on September 29, 2012, 11:53:04 AM
Is McFarland a version of MacFarlane, as in Clan MacFarlane? Which claims descent from the original Earls of Lennox descending from an Anglo-Saxon but maybe now thought that the original Earls of Lennox were of Gaelic descent?

An early continetial connection?

MJost

Mark, I think you are correct. All kits in the groups named "R1b Cadets" in the MacFarlane project is very likely DF13-.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/MacFarlane/default.aspx?section=yresults

They have quite alot of information on their project page: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/MacFarlane/default.aspx

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on September 29, 2012, 06:27:11 PM
Since we are seeing the L21* guys mostly in England it may be carried into the area by Anglo-Saxons's?

MJost

 


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 29, 2012, 06:51:03 PM
Since we are seeing the L21* guys mostly in England it may be carried into the area by Anglo-Saxons's?

MJost

 

That would be very hard to make sense of indeed.  There was a parallel L21XDF13 line in France that is hugely more common than L21XDf13 in England per head tested.  I would suggest Normans are the most likely source of L21* in England. 


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on September 29, 2012, 07:21:03 PM
Since we are seeing the L21* guys mostly in England it may be carried into the area by Anglo-Saxons's?

MJost

That would be very hard to make sense of indeed.  There was a parallel L21XDF13 line in France that is hugely more common than L21XDf13 in England per head tested.  I would suggest Normans are the most likely source of L21* in England. 

Ok, I just rechecked to make sure what I am seeing.

Of the L21 guys who have tested negative for DF13 and DF63 there are five English, one French and the other unknown for eight total.

The DF63+ are four English and four Scots, two French, one Spain, with two Franklins and one Chavez with unknown origin.

So it seems the current crop is tilting majority to the isles on both L21* and DF63+ but you are probably correct that this could have been a serious Norman movement.

MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 29, 2012, 11:53:08 PM
Mark, I think you are correct. All kits in the groups named "R1b Cadets" in the MacFarlane project is very likely DF13-.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/MacFarlane/default.aspx?section=yresults

They have quite alot of information on their project page: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/MacFarlane/default.aspx

Alll the McFarlanes that are YCAII=18,23 look to be what I call X13-1415, a L21+ DF13- variety. There were also some M222 suspects to go with a Scots modal suspect. I added all the 67 STR people that fit into the L21 file.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Haplotypes.zip


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on September 30, 2012, 05:50:46 AM
Thank you Mike.

I suspect we can soon rename this variety to X1363-1415. Time will tell.

I'll try to contact the untested people in X13-63unassigned to see if we can get any of them to test. DF63+ is growing nicely.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: bmattox on October 17, 2012, 01:27:05 PM
Hello, Bob here, is there any benefit to testing for L459 and/or Z245 for a L21**?


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on October 17, 2012, 02:38:32 PM
Hello, Bob here, is there any benefit to testing for L459 and/or Z245 for a L21**?

Hi Bob,

Yes, absolutely. Only N80403 - Bishop of the L21** kits has tested those two SNP's. He is positive to both. We still don't know if they are older or younger than L21. It would make sense for you to test both.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: bmattox on October 18, 2012, 01:39:59 PM
Thank you Kai!


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on October 19, 2012, 03:59:43 AM
There's a new DF63+ this morning: Sims, kit 8042. He lists "United Kingdom" as place of ancestral origin, but nothing more specific as to location.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 19, 2012, 04:11:35 PM
There's a new DF63+ this morning: Sims, kit 8042. He lists "United Kingdom" as place of ancestral origin, but nothing more specific as to location.

Are you seeing any patterns with DF63 people?


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on October 19, 2012, 08:50:08 PM
There's a new DF63+ this morning: Sims, kit 8042. He lists "United Kingdom" as place of ancestral origin, but nothing more specific as to location.

Are you seeing any patterns with DF63 people?

I haven't really tried mapping it out or anything, but we have guys from Spain and France, and England and Scotland, and one from Northern Ireland with a Scottish surname (McFarland). Ireland and Wales thus far have not produced any DF63+ folks.

I'm not sure what it means exactly, but it is interesting.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on October 23, 2012, 03:57:54 AM
There's another new DF13- this morning, another German: Brunhoeber, kit  N110523. His mdka was born in Hanover.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: df.reynolds on October 23, 2012, 06:39:39 AM
There's another new DF13- this morning, another German: Brunhoeber, kit  N110523. His mdka was born in Hanover.
Not a very common surname in modern Germany, almost exclusively located in Niedersachsen, with the heaviest concentration just NE of Hannover.

(http://daver.info/tmp/Brunhoeber.png)

--david


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: erwangery on October 23, 2012, 07:17:48 AM
Yes and Hannover is more than 300 km far from Linz Am rhein (Schaefer, kit H1922 DF13- DF63?)...

For the time being, if we only take into account European Df63+, we have in terms of places of origin:  Brittany, Catalonia, England, Germany, Scotland.




Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on October 24, 2012, 08:03:41 AM
It's good to see this group grow. Does anyone know if Schaefer and Brunhoeber have ordered DF63?

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on October 24, 2012, 08:47:04 PM
It's good to see this group grow. Does anyone know if Schaefer and Brunhoeber have ordered DF63?

-Kai

Both of them have. Schaefer ordered it back at the end of September, so it should pop up anytime now. Brunhoeber just ordered it yesterday.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on October 25, 2012, 03:34:39 AM
It's good to see this group grow. Does anyone know if Schaefer and Brunhoeber have ordered DF63?

-Kai

Both of them have. Schaefer ordered it back at the end of September, so it should pop up anytime now. Brunhoeber just ordered it yesterday.

Thanks Rich. More waiting. :)

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on October 26, 2012, 04:07:44 AM
Schaefer is in the DF63+ category as of this morning.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on October 26, 2012, 05:12:18 AM
Schaefer is in the DF63+ category as of this morning.

Great! Thanks. :)

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on November 06, 2012, 07:38:09 AM
There's a new DF13- this morning: Hollister, kit N49494. He's not sure who his mdka was or where he came from.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on November 06, 2012, 07:42:32 AM
There's a new DF13- this morning: Hollister, kit N49494. He's not sure who his mdka was or where he came from.

Rich,

Has he tested L21+ elsewhere?

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on November 06, 2012, 07:52:41 AM
There's a new DF13- this morning: Hollister, kit N49494. He's not sure who his mdka was or where he came from.

Rich,

Has he tested L21+ elsewhere?

-Kai

Yes. He tested L21+ with 23andMe.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on November 06, 2012, 08:00:06 AM
There's a new DF13- this morning: Hollister, kit N49494. He's not sure who his mdka was or where he came from.

Rich,

Has he tested L21+ elsewhere?

-Kai

Yes. He tested L21+ with 23andMe.

Thank you. :-)

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: TH63 on November 08, 2012, 02:03:29 AM
There's a new DF13- this morning: Hollister, kit N49494. He's not sure who his mdka was or where he came from.
Ta-daaa!  That was me.  Hollister is my adopted name, but I'm a 66/67 Y match to a Wildes, whose ancestry is believed to be from Scotland by family lore, no paper trail. My DF63 test is already in process, due date 12/24.  Once this comes back, one of the three other Wildes who are close Y67 matches to me (and part of a family project) will also test for these markers. The Wildes family participants are very interested to find out about their ancestor's origins. Many of them believe an alternate story about him which would point to English ancestry. Still others believe the Wildes name has an earlier German origin. This is all new to me so I thought I'd sign up here and stay tuned.

~Todd


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on November 08, 2012, 08:28:56 PM
Welcome, Todd! Hope you enjoy it here.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on November 13, 2012, 10:19:45 AM
Welcome, Todd!

I'm looking forward to your DF63 result. :)

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: TH63 on November 19, 2012, 04:56:00 PM
Welcome, Todd!

I'm looking forward to your DF63 result. :)

-Kai

My result came back today DF63-

That's a negative.

Now I'm wondering if my L21+ result from 23andMe is real. I have not tested for that at FTDNA.

Todd



Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Jdean on November 19, 2012, 05:13:42 PM
Welcome, Todd!

I'm looking forward to your DF63 result. :)

-Kai

My result came back today DF63-

That's a negative.

Now I'm wondering if my L21+ result from 23andMe is real. I have not tested for that at FTDNA.

Todd



Every L21+, DF13-, DF63- result has so far tested positive for both L459 and Z245

One of these would probably be a good way of verifying your L21 result without doubling up.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: TH63 on November 19, 2012, 05:23:08 PM
My 23andMe result for L21 is below. I was told by a couple of people this is a L21+ result:

R1b1b2a1a2f defining mutations
variant                call   anc        der
rs11799226 (L21)    G    C    -->   G

I'm reluctant to pay for more tests at this point.

Todd


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on November 19, 2012, 08:46:10 PM
Cook, kit 365 (now that's a kit number!), just got a DF13- result.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on November 20, 2012, 10:32:19 AM
Welcome, Todd!

I'm looking forward to your DF63 result. :)

-Kai

My result came back today DF63-

That's a negative.

Now I'm wondering if my L21+ result from 23andMe is real. I have not tested for that at FTDNA.

Todd

Hi Todd,

I know FTDNA has done some retesting of suspicious results, I don't know if 23andMe does the same thing. Also, 5 other kits are L21+, DF13-, DF63-, so it's not like it never happens. :)

As JDean wrote, your testing options for now are L459 and Z245 which are tangled with L21. That is, if you decide to do further testing.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on November 20, 2012, 10:35:04 AM
Cook, kit 365 (now that's a kit number!), just got a DF13- result.

Thanks Rich!

That brings the L21+/DF13- total up to 26 with 20 unique surnames. Do you know if he plans to order DF63?

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: TH63 on November 20, 2012, 04:42:01 PM
Hi Todd,

I know FTDNA has done some retesting of suspicious results, I don't know if 23andMe does the same thing. Also, 5 other kits are L21+, DF13-, DF63-, so it's not like it never happens. :)

As JDean wrote, your testing options for now are L459 and Z245 which are tangled with L21. That is, if you decide to do further testing.

-Kai
Hello Kai,

I have ordered the L21 test at FTDNA to make sure. Until I saw JDean's post about L459 and Z245, I thought that I was done after DF13- and DF63-.

At this point, since the line I match has an uncertain origin, I can't help other people by testing myself. And until we grow the number of testers to a meaningful level (if that can ever be reached) I think I will hold off on further tests. I will report back on the L21 "second opinion" when it comes in.  :)

Thanks for the input,

Todd


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on November 20, 2012, 04:56:34 PM
Hello Kai,

I have ordered the L21 test at FTDNA to make sure. Until I saw JDean's post about L459 and Z245, I thought that I was done after DF13- and DF63-.

At this point, since the line I match has an uncertain origin, I can't help other people by testing myself. And until we grow the number of testers to a meaningful level (if that can ever be reached) I think I will hold off on further tests. I will report back on the L21 "second opinion" when it comes in.  :)

Thanks for the input,

Todd

Todd,

No worries. L459 and Z245 are currently tangled with L21. So all known L459/Z245+ are also L21+ and all known L459-/Z245- are L21-. Quite a lot of testing has been done on the two to split them from L21, but most of those kits turned out to be DF13+, and we know DF13 is L459+/Z245+. We also know DF63 is L459+/Z245+. So if those SNPs are below L21, they will be found in a L21+/DF13-/DF63- kit. Only one such kit has tested to my knowledge. There is also a possibility that they are above L21, so P312* kits are also recommended to test.
That's why JDean suggested those SNPs.

Good luck with your L21 test and let's hope it mirrors the 23andMe result! :-)

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on November 20, 2012, 07:53:37 PM

Hello Kai,

I have ordered the L21 test at FTDNA to make sure. Until I saw JDean's post about L459 and Z245, I thought that I was done after DF13- and DF63-.

At this point, since the line I match has an uncertain origin, I can't help other people by testing myself. And until we grow the number of testers to a meaningful level (if that can ever be reached) I think I will hold off on further tests. I will report back on the L21 "second opinion" when it comes in.  :)

Thanks for the input,

Todd

Todd,

May I suggest calling FTDNA tomorrow (Before Wednesday's order cutoff) and change your order to the L459 instead if you wish to confirm something.  I dont think 23andme is in error. L21+ DF13- DF63- is old and one can not predict where the lines are drawn yet.

MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on November 20, 2012, 08:46:11 PM
Cook, kit 365 (now that's a kit number!), just got a DF13- result.

Thanks Rich!

That brings the L21+/DF13- total up to 26 with 20 unique surnames. Do you know if he plans to order DF63?

-Kai

Cook has ordered DF63.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: TH63 on November 24, 2012, 12:38:54 AM


Todd,

May I suggest calling FTDNA tomorrow (Before Wednesday's order cutoff) and change your order to the L459 instead if you wish to confirm something.  I dont think 23andme is in error. L21+ DF13- DF63- is old and one can not predict where the lines are drawn yet.

MJost
Reply to both Kai and Mark,

What with the holiday I didn't notice these recent posts until now. My L21 test is already batched and in process.  Are there funds available for further SNP testing of my apparently rare type? What about the other people who are L21+ DF13- DF63-, have they not been persuaded to test for these additional markers? 

Thanks,

Todd


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on November 24, 2012, 09:47:31 AM


Todd,

May I suggest calling FTDNA tomorrow (Before Wednesday's order cutoff) and change your order to the L459 instead if you wish to confirm something.  I dont think 23andme is in error. L21+ DF13- DF63- is old and one can not predict where the lines are drawn yet.

MJost
Reply to both Kai and Mark,

What with the holiday I didn't notice these recent posts until now. My L21 test is already batched and in process.  Are there funds available for further SNP testing of my apparently rare type? What about the other people who are L21+ DF13- DF63-, have they not been persuaded to test for these additional markers?  

Thanks,

Todd

Personally, I think an L21 test is the best move for you right now. Confirm your 23andMe result first, then worry about L459, which appears to be equivalent to L21 anyway. If some of these guys are hoping to get an L21+ L459- result, it would need to be confirmed as L21+ at some point. Might as well establish the L21+ first.

I have my doubts that any L21+ L459- guys are out there, but you never know.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mark Jost on November 24, 2012, 09:53:11 AM

Reply to both Kai and Mark,

What with the holiday I didn't notice these recent posts until now. My L21 test is already batched and in process.  Are there funds available for further SNP testing of my apparently rare type? What about the other people who are L21+ DF13- DF63-, have they not been persuaded to test for these additional markers? 

Thanks,

Todd

Darn, well the L21 test will set you up in the FtDNA SNP database formally as L21** helping all.  We say; 'Thank you' for your contributions.

MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: TH63 on November 24, 2012, 01:48:45 PM
Thanks again for the input.

A question: is Geno 2.0 expected to contribute to this conversation? I know it promises to plunge into the deepest, darkest clades ever imagined by us mere mortals. Is it hoped that L21 will become "untangled" in Geno 2.0?  I haven't planned to do that test, but surely other members of my type are awaiting those results.

Todd


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: TH63 on November 26, 2012, 07:08:28 PM
A possibly interesting finding after entering my Y-DNA markers into Ancestry.com.  I matched someone named Wells at 32/34 markers.  In FTDNA, I match a different person named Wells at 62/67 markers.  The only other closer Y-DNA matches I have are with members of the Wildes family who I already know about, and we are a cluster unto our own with a MRCA six generations ago, not matching anyone else with the Wilde(s) surname or any other surname.

The Wells in FTDNA has not answered my emails. It doesn't appear that he has done deep clade testing, I do not think he is in the Wells surname project, and he does not list an ancestor. The other Wells in Ancestry had his last login in 2007, so I'm not very hopeful for a reply. But after matching the Wells in FTDNA, I wondered if perhaps Wildes and Wells were variants, or maybe Wells was the original name of the Wildes family which got corrupted. Now with this new Wells match in Ancestry I'm even more inclined to think the original surname of my line may have been Wells.

~Todd


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on November 30, 2012, 09:36:57 PM
Cook, kit 365 (now that's a kit number!), just got a DF13- result.

Thanks Rich!

That brings the L21+/DF13- total up to 26 with 20 unique surnames. Do you know if he plans to order DF63?

-Kai

Cook has ordered DF63.

Cook is DF63-.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on December 25, 2012, 10:56:12 AM
Bertrand, with ancestry in France, kit 229499, just got a DF13- result.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on December 26, 2012, 12:39:19 AM
Bertrand, with ancestry in France, kit 229499, just got a DF13- result.

DF63 is on order.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on December 27, 2012, 06:21:51 AM
Thanks Rich,

He is in Mike's variety 253-1716-11. It's not the first time I see DF13- kits looking like Z253+ kits. There are three other Bertrands in the same variety with identical markers (Y67).

Looking forward to his DF63 result!

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Dubhthach on December 27, 2012, 12:57:12 PM
McFarlane (253055) in the Ireland yDNA Project has tested DF63+ he has a match of GD 5 @ 111 markers in McFarland (188353) who has DF63 on order which looks fairly certain to also be DF63+

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on December 28, 2012, 05:40:46 AM
McFarlane (253055) in the Ireland yDNA Project has tested DF63+ he has a match of GD 5 @ 111 markers in McFarland (188353) who has DF63 on order which looks fairly certain to also be DF63+

Thanks Paul!

I believe Hamish Allan has control over all the MacFarlane project members testing for DF63. A huge chunk of their project is believed to be DF63+. :)

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: TH63 on December 28, 2012, 11:04:01 AM
It's official, my L21 test with FTDNA came back positive, confirming my 23andMe result. So I am R1b1a2a1a1b4 according to FTDNA nomenclature, L21+, DF13-, DF63-. But sorry that we don't know where the ancestry is from except perhaps England or Scotland according to different family traditions.

Todd


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Jdean on December 28, 2012, 11:51:06 AM
It's official, my L21 test with FTDNA came back positive, confirming my 23andMe result. So I am R1b1a2a1a1b4 according to FTDNA nomenclature, L21+, DF13-, DF63-. But sorry that we don't know where the ancestry is from except perhaps England or Scotland according to different family traditions.

Todd

Must have been quite a relief after forking out for DF13 & DF63 :)

There are some others you could consider if you're game. In particular the position of Z2542 in relation to DF13 has yet to be ascertained, a test from an L21** fellow such as yourself could be useful.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: TH63 on December 31, 2012, 01:28:48 PM


Must have been quite a relief after forking out for DF13 & DF63 :)

There are some others you could consider if you're game. In particular the position of Z2542 in relation to DF13 has yet to be ascertained, a test from an L21** fellow such as yourself could be useful.
Yes, I'm relieved. But is that a typo? Earlier in the thread I saw L459 and Z245 mentioned as possibilities for further testing.

Any thoughts on how to grow this L21** subgroup? The sample size is woefully small.

Todd


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 31, 2012, 01:37:53 PM
It's official, my L21 test with FTDNA came back positive, confirming my 23andMe result. So I am R1b1a2a1a1b4 according to FTDNA nomenclature, L21+, DF13-, DF63-. But sorry that we don't know where the ancestry is from except perhaps England or Scotland according to different family traditions.

Todd

Must have been quite a relief after forking out for DF13 & DF63 :)

There are some others you could consider if you're game. In particular the position of Z2542 in relation to DF13 has yet to be ascertained, a test from an L21** fellow such as yourself could be useful.

I hate to say it because I don't really feel good that you'd be negative for any of these, but true L21** folks like yourselves are the ones who need to test for Z2542 and L459 and Z245 and maybe even Z260.  They are in the "cloud." See graphic at
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/

Strange, but in this case being negative for an SNP is a good thing.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Jdean on December 31, 2012, 01:52:18 PM


Must have been quite a relief after forking out for DF13 & DF63 :)

There are some others you could consider if you're game. In particular the position of Z2542 in relation to DF13 has yet to be ascertained, a test from an L21** fellow such as yourself could be useful.
Yes, I'm relieved. But is that a typo? Earlier in the thread I saw L459 and Z245 mentioned as possibilities for further testing.

Any thoughts on how to grow this L21** subgroup? The sample size is woefully small.

Todd

No DF63 is known to be negative for Z2542 and so far all DF13* people who have tested it are positive, it could be below DF13 or above.

Geno2 should help grow L21**, DF13 isn't included but enough of the downstream SNPs are, encouraging those that come back L21* via that to test DF13 probably shouldn't be to hard.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: df.reynolds on December 31, 2012, 01:56:37 PM
I believe Kai (DF63+) ordered Z2542 a couple weeks ago.

--david


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: TH63 on December 31, 2012, 04:43:18 PM
No DF63 is known to be negative for Z2542 and so far all DF13* people who have tested it are positive, it could be below DF13 or above.

Geno2 should help grow L21**, DF13 isn't included but enough of the downstream SNPs are, encouraging those that come back L21* via that to test DF13 probably shouldn't be to hard.
I'm just not that invested in it anymore. If someone would like to sponsor further SNP tests on my kit you'd be more than welcome. :)

Todd


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on December 31, 2012, 11:34:47 PM
I believe Kai (DF63+) ordered Z2542 a couple weeks ago.

--david

Confirmed, it is pending! It was sponsored by an "anonymous" person. Thank you! :)

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on January 04, 2013, 07:50:49 AM
I believe Kai (DF63+) ordered Z2542 a couple weeks ago.

--david

Confirmed, it is pending! It was sponsored by an "anonymous" person. Thank you! :)

-Kai

My result came in today. I am Z2542-, which from what I understand was the expected result. So I am:
L21+, L459+, Z245+, DF63+, DF13-, Z2542-.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on February 02, 2013, 11:43:43 AM
Bush, kit 31903, got a DF13- result this morning. No DF63 order yet.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: bmattox on February 04, 2013, 02:14:27 PM
Bob here, from the Maddox DF13- DF63-  group. I just ordered the L459 and Z245 tests. The tests will be batched on Thursday. Happy hunting!


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on February 04, 2013, 03:20:31 PM
Bob here, from the Maddox DF13- DF63-  group. I just ordered the L459 and Z245 tests. The tests will be batched on Thursday. Happy hunting!

Good luck Bob! This feels a bit strange to write, but let's hope for some negative results! And thank you for being a pioneer!

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: df.reynolds on February 05, 2013, 01:19:24 AM
Bob here, from the Maddox DF13- DF63-  group. I just ordered the L459 and Z245 tests. The tests will be batched on Thursday. Happy hunting!
Super, look forward to seeing your results.

If you want to do some additional investigatory testing at some point, there are three other SNPs which are of interest to L21+ DF13- DF63- people.
  Z2542 (approx. equivalent to DF13)
  Z260 (approx. equivalent to L21)
  Z290 (approx. equivalent to L21)

Regards,
david


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: df.reynolds on February 05, 2013, 03:44:00 AM
Bob here, from the Maddox DF13- DF63-  group. I just ordered the L459 and Z245 tests. The tests will be batched on Thursday. Happy hunting!
Super, look forward to seeing your results.

If you want to do some additional investigatory testing at some point, there are three other SNPs which are of interest to L21+ DF13- DF63- people.
  Z2542 (approx. equivalent to DF13)
  Z260 (approx. equivalent to L21)
  Z290 (approx. equivalent to L21)

Regards,
david

Late breaking news. Kit 365 (Cook) received his Z2542 result and is L21+ Z2542+ DF13- DF63-.

Z2542 sits above DF13, under L21. All of the folks that were R1b-L21* are strongly encouraged to test Z2542.

We know Z2542 is under R-L21 (rather than equivalent to it, like L459), since Kai (R-DF63) tested Z2542-.

Z2542 was submitted to the Hg R ISOGG coordinator for inclusion on the ISOGG tree. A request for primers for it was sent to Thomas Krahn on 18 Nov, so all-in-all, a very satisfactory timeline for it.


Sorry folks, please ignore the above. The kit in question is in fact DF13+, not DF13-, so the best we can say about Z2542 is that it is located at approximately R-DF13. Thanks to Thomas Krahn for identifying the error and quickly letting us know about it. Thomas said:

"DF13 is a difficult marker to score because the sequencing traces are not clean because the primers bind to all sorts of locations. We have had several revisions of primers. The ones that we use are the best but they're still not great. Our technician tried to read a not so clean trace manually but he shifted one base to the side and came to the (wrong) DF13- conclusion."

Regards,
david


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: TH63 on February 18, 2013, 11:27:37 PM
Sorry folks, please ignore the above. The kit in question is in fact DF13+, not DF13-, so the best we can say about Z2542 is that it is located at approximately R-DF13. Thanks to Thomas Krahn for identifying the error and quickly letting us know about it. Thomas said:

"DF13 is a difficult marker to score because the sequencing traces are not clean because the primers bind to all sorts of locations. We have had several revisions of primers. The ones that we use are the best but they're still not great. Our technician tried to read a not so clean trace manually but he shifted one base to the side and came to the (wrong) DF13- conclusion."

Regards,
david


Does this suggest that others in L21+ may have received a DF13- result due to lab error, because it is a "difficult marker to score"? It is not clear to me how this error in Cook's kit was discovered, what triggered this finding.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on February 20, 2013, 04:05:22 PM
Does this suggest that others in L21+ may have received a DF13- result due to lab error, because it is a "difficult marker to score"? It is not clear to me how this error in Cook's kit was discovered, what triggered this finding.

Hi Todd,

Lab errors are always a possibility, but it's my opinion that they are quite far apart. The error was discovered because he, as a DF13-, tested positive for a SNP (Z2542) that was believed to by phylogenetically equivalent to DF13. If that result had been correct, it would have been sort of a big deal, as it would split those SNPs. Thomas Krahn did a recheck, and it turned out the result was erroneous.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: bmattox on March 04, 2013, 10:39:18 AM
I have the results of one of my snps. I am L459+, now awaiting the results of the Z245. Any interpretations are surely appreciated. Take care. Bob.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on March 04, 2013, 02:44:16 PM
I have the results of one of my snps. I am L459+, now awaiting the results of the Z245. Any interpretations are surely appreciated. Take care. Bob.

Hi Bob,

L459+ is in line with all previous results, so that means it is still phylogenetically equivalent of L21.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: bmattox on March 05, 2013, 10:31:34 AM
Thank you Kai.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: erwangery on March 08, 2013, 06:41:52 PM
Hi, I am positive for cts6919+.

Erwan (kit n66966)


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on March 09, 2013, 06:11:08 AM
Hi, I am positive for cts6919+.

Erwan (kit n66966)

Hi Erwan,

Yes, you and kit 54798 Franklin are our newest CTS6919+ kits. Along with N110523 Braunhofer, these are the only three kits known to date that are CTS6919+. My result (191950 Lowden) also came back, but it came back negative. Your genetic distance from Franklin is enough for ISOGG inclusion, so I sent an email to ISOGG just now, requesting that CTS6919 is added to the tree.

Thank you for being a pioneer!

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on March 13, 2013, 04:55:36 PM
I have the results of one of my snps. I am L459+, now awaiting the results of the Z245. Any interpretations are surely appreciated. Take care. Bob.

Hi Bob,

I see that you are now listed as Z245+. That result is also in line with previous results. So L21=L459=Z245 still. From what I know, you're only the second L21** testing for both those two.

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: bmattox on March 18, 2013, 08:54:14 AM
Thanks Kai. Any ideas on what might be next for me? Thanks. Bob.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: k.o.gran on March 18, 2013, 02:45:04 PM
Thanks Kai. Any ideas on what might be next for me? Thanks. Bob.

I'm not entirely sure, but I believe Z260, Z290 and Z2542 are your options. Can anyone else confirm? David R.? Mike W.?

Keep in mind that it is very likely that you test Z260+, Z290+ and Z2542-. However, should you test differently, you will make quite an impact on the L21 haplotree.

These are the only test results I can find for other L21** kits for these SNPs:
94428 - Meadows: Z290+
37201 - Berry: Z290+
N80403 - Bishop: Z290+

-Kai


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: TH63 on October 30, 2013, 05:04:17 PM
All quiet on this thread so I gather there have been no new findings lately.

One of my Y-DNA cousins has had several additional tests done on his kit with no surprises. Here are his complete results so far:

L21+, L459+, Z245+, Z260+, DF13-, DF63-, Z2542-

Still pretty "lonely" in this group!

Todd


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: rms2 on October 30, 2013, 09:07:30 PM
All quiet on this thread so I gather there have been no new findings lately.

One of my Y-DNA cousins has had several additional tests done on his kit with no surprises. Here are his complete results so far:

L21+, L459+, Z245+, Z260+, DF13-, DF63-, Z2542-

Still pretty "lonely" in this group!

Todd

We have a new R1b-L21 subforum. There is a DF63 thread there you might want to try.


Title: Re: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
Post by: Jacob Maddox on June 13, 2017, 12:19:10 PM
I'm df63, awaiting bigY results. My admixture contains around 40% Mediterranean, 50% Atlantic/North Sea/Baltic and the final 10% west asian/sw asian/northeast africa. Last Name Maddox. My father looks spanish basque, italian, Berber/greek.