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Title: Ancient R1b1 gems
Post by: A_Wode on May 30, 2012, 12:45:31 PM
I know Humanist/handschar has posted some great topics on R1b in the old DNA Forums. I can't seem to find a thread for this here, but thought it would be fitting to create one.

Over some of my (very basic) research, there are a couple sets of data I would like to share.

Currently 44% of the Kanem descent men belong to R1b1c-V88 - at least I am very certain this is the case.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/chad/default.aspx?section=ycolorized
A very brief overview of Kanem from Wikipedia's Kanem Bornu page.

"The origins of Kanem Empire are very unclear. Until today, historiographical debates oppose the followers of a foundation of Kanem-Bornu by populations from the ancient Near East and followers of a more local development. Some researches try to connect the creation of Kanem-Bornu with exodus from the collapsed Assyrian Empire c. 600 BC to the northeast of Lake Chad.[2] The intensity of scholar discussions around this theory proves that the question haven't been solved yet, and we must be very cautious concerning early formation of Kanem-Bornu[3]."

Of course this origin is up for discussion but I think we'd be hard pressed to consider a Central African origin of R1b - current evidence does point to somewhere in Asia, and I feel a back migration to Africa from the Levant is strong. Coupled with strong papers from Wood, this only supports the case further.

Second, doing a bit of research on YHRD it seems a small sample n=64 of Sudanese Bedouins might be 25% R1b1c. I can't seem to find the study that these are associated with, but it appears they likely belong to this group - a second possibly being T1. Unfortunately, DYS449 wasn't tested to make a stronger prediction.


Title: Re: Ancient R1b1 gems
Post by: ironroad41 on May 30, 2012, 02:16:04 PM
Possibly I misremember, but it seems rms2 said that this haplotype is only found in Africa?  It was when I suggested a western out of africa migration for R1b?

This is incorrect.  rms2 said that it is not the oldest R1b.  What about multiple migrations out of africa?


Title: Re: Ancient R1b1 gems
Post by: A_Wode on May 30, 2012, 04:06:53 PM
I believe it's found in Africa, Levant (Jordan, Syria, Lebanon), Yemen, and Saudi Arabia.

It is not the oldest, which is exactly why I suggested a back-migration from Asia somewhere - but it could still be pretty near close.


Title: Re: Ancient R1b1 gems
Post by: rms2 on May 30, 2012, 07:35:34 PM
Possibly I misremember, but it seems rms2 said that this haplotype is only found in Africa?  It was when I suggested a western out of africa migration for R1b?

This is incorrect.  rms2 said that it is not the oldest R1b.  What about multiple migrations out of africa?

No, it's not found only in Africa. It is also found in SW Asia, where I believe it is older. R-V88 is P297-, whereas most of the rest of R1b (R-V88 and R-M335 are the exceptions) is P297+.

It is extremely unlikely that R1b originated in Africa. As I mentioned before, all its closest genetic relatives are found in Asia: K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R1, R1a, various forms of R1b, and R2 (the Super K Family).