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Title: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 05, 2012, 08:01:51 AM
With constantly growing information and insights I think we are getting closer and closer to understanding R1b.  I dont think anyone has 100% nailed it but we are drawing closer to a consensus.  Based on the latest evidence here is my take on it


My favoured variant based on the DNA evidence would be that the spread began moved from the Adriatic Balkans/the west coast of the Black Sea or the western Anatolian coast or thereabouts as L23* (am deliberately being vague) and then it followed a marine route around (and into) the south and west side of Italy (with L51* springing up around then) and on reaching the SE of France/NW Italy L11* occurred very soon after.  Very soon after L11* occurred in SE France/west Alps.  Very shortly after P312* occurred in the same area of SE France/western Alps.

From there a mixed group with a small quantity of L51*, L11* and much more P312* spread by sea to Iberia, in various directions through France  and the Low Countries.  The L21, U152 and Z196 mutations occurred during this spread in and around France.  The U152 maybe occurred first closest to the SE France/Alps area with L21 occurring among a P312* line travelling on a SE to NW trajectory through France.  An L11* line (possibly among others like P312) that had headed along the Danube and up the north flowing rivers of Europe and an outlying pocket of L11* that had reached the Baltic soon experienced the U106* SNP in a dominant lineage.  I need to tweak this model when I get more time.  That is the way I would interpret looking at Variance of various clades, distribution and phylogeny.  Clearly afterwards there may have been a lot of mixing between beaker communities.   I tend to see the evidence of the next phase as secondary expansion from pockets of beaker communities across Europe.  That of course is not the whole story and there was likely later movements of R1b clades but that is my tentative take on the initial phase.  I have deliberately ignored all archaeological and linguistic evidence in this model as I would like the DNA evidence to create the model and then only after that see how it fits the archaeology.   In terms of archaeology the initial spread must have been pre-beaker (if only slightly so) until it reached SE France.  Somewhere the beaker culture arose quickly among the immediate pre-beaker R1b group but I am going to hang my hat on SE France rather than Iberia as the radiocarbon dating is inconclusive and geographically it is an ideal position to reach all the beaker areas using the west Med. route to Iberia, the Rhone to Rhine/Loire etc routes and it fits the DNA evidence best.

Anyway that is my tentative model.  Please critique and post your own but please base it on the DNA evidence, not preconceptions.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 05, 2012, 09:36:34 AM
and for anyone who feels this doesnt work due to earliest beaker dates being in Iberia, an extremely recent paper on beaker 'Demography and mobility in NW Europe in the third millennium cal BC' by Marc Vander Linden states:

Before the onset of processualism, the localization of the homeland of the Bell Beaker Phenomenon was considered the necessary departing point of any interpretation of the period, hence the multiplicity of existing propositions, from the lower Rhine (Lanting
and van der Waals 1976) to various regions of the Iberian Peninsula (Castillo 1928;Kunst 2001), as well as the French Midi (Clarke 1970) or Sicily (Guilaine2004). An apparent consensus has recently emerged in placing the Bell Beaker homeland, or at least the development of one of its key components, the maritime beaker, in the Portuguese Estremadura (e.g. Guilaine et al. 2004; Kunst 2001; Needham 2005; Salanova 2004). The argument rests mainly on radiocarbon dates. In a widely quoted paper, Muller and van Willingen re-evaluated the relatively limited14Cevidence for the entire Bell Beaker Phenomenon and systematically considered charcoal dates as unreliable because of the potential 'old wood' effect (Muller and van Willingen 2001). Although their
decision seems methodologically sound, by acting so, they created an imbalanced dataset since, for instance, charcoal dates constituted until recently the only source of information for the Netherlands (Drenth and Hogestijn 2001; Lanting 2007/2008;Lanting and
van der Plicht 1999/2000;Lanting and van der Waals 1976). Their statistical treatment of the resulting dataset is thus only informative of their criteria for selecting dates, but by no means of any past reality (Vander Linden 2006: 12). The Portuguese Estremadura has yielded consistently old dates, pointing to the emergence of the BellBeaker Phenomenon somewhere between 2700 and 2500 cal. BC, but similar old - and otherwise valid for any quality criteria - dates are also available for the rest of the Iberian peninsula, the
French Midi and the Netherlands (Vander Linden 2006:12-14, annex). The solution, or absence thereof, of the problem lies in the radiocarbon curve for the third millennium cal. BC, which shows a lengthy plateau between 2700 and 2500 cal. BC (see Raetzel-Fabian
2001). All the 'old' dates fall within this plateau and are therefore virtually undistinguishable from each other. All things considered, it is thus not possible
to assign a Portuguese origin, or any other one, for the Bell Beaker Phenomenon on the sole basis of the radiocarbon evidence. This bias in favour of the
Estremadura is actually the renewed expression of a marked preference for this area which goes a long way back in the Bell Beaker historiography (e.g. Castillo 1928). Because of the inherent limits to the use of the 14Cdating method for the third millennium cal. BC, any attempt at locating the BellBeaker homeland must therefore eventually rest upon explicit cultural and typological arguments (Vander Linden 2006: 14).



While the author goes on to discuss Holland, what caught my eye (and what I have long thought) is the early dates from the French Midi=the south of France.  That is a much better match for the variance and also geographically more likely if you are looking for a point where beaker could have come into existence in western Europe and radiated out from using the Rhone, Rhine, Med., Loire and Danube.  


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on May 05, 2012, 10:43:26 AM
Well obviously Alan your model will be far better than the one I constructed yonks ago based on archaeology, linguistics, genetics and anything else I can think of. That goes without saying. You are a man. :) 


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 05, 2012, 10:44:10 AM
... (and what I have long thought) is the early dates from the French Midi=the south of France.  That is a much better match for the variance and also geographically more likely if you are looking for a point where beaker could have come into existence in western Europe and radiated out from using the Rhone, Rhine, Med., Loire and Danube.  

I don't know where L11, P312, U106, etc. arose, but I agree with you and RRocca's general theme that there was expansion of L11 based folks from SE France/the West Alps.

That doesn't mean that was the start for L11, though, or L51. It could be.  It would be nice to figure out where this started. If it was really Anatolia, the Lower Danube or even in the Steppes or Caucasus.  It may have been just L23* then.  I don't know.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 05, 2012, 11:14:24 AM
I have just posted this on another thread, but it is appropriate also here. Of course only other aDNA will be able to say which is the right interpretation.


These are the FGS used by Behar et al. (2012b) for haplogroup K1a1b1e:

Sample Id: JQ703805
Unresolved Options:
Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: T477C;
Topologically Missing:
Country: Scotland
Geography:
Ancestry:
Reference: Behar 2012b
Contact:

Sample Id: JQ704056
Unresolved Options:
Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: A8521G; T16093C;
Topologically Missing:
Country: [unknown]
Geography:
Ancestry: [/clone="4529", unknown, but the mutation T16093C is also in JQ706057, probably from Siena, Tuscany]
Reference: Behar 2012b
Contact:

Sample Id: JQ704207
Unresolved Options:
Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: C114T; G3705A;
Topologically Missing: C146T(L1'2'3'4'5'6);
Country: Ireland
Geography:
Ancestry:
Reference: Behar 2012b
Contact:

Sample Id: JQ706057
Unresolved Options:
Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: T16093C;
Topologically Missing:
Country: Italy
Geography:
Ancestry: Italian  [clone Siena100]
Reference: Behar 2012b
Contact:

Sample Id: HQ176413
Unresolved Options:
Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: T11204C;
Topologically Missing:
Country: [Italy]
Geography:
Ancestry:  [Italian: Gioiello Tognoni]
Reference: FamilyTreeDNA
Contact:

Conclusions: either I and this individual from Siena, Tuscany, are from Ireland or Scotland, or these last are from Italy. Someone could say that we all come from Stelae people and come from Russia.

This haplogroup is given about 6000 years old.

Beyond the mutation of our subclade (G9932A) we have all at least one mutation, then our common ancestress could be also older than 7500 years and if we'll find someone in Portugal or along the Ocean coast, we could also think that our ancestress was with those agriculturalists from Tuscany or "Grotta delle Arene Candide".


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: rms2 on May 05, 2012, 01:25:34 PM
I don't have a model fully formed in my mind. I do think the movement in general was southeast to northwest, but I am uncertain of the starting point. That is the real question, anyway, since we know where most of us are now. The rest is very controversial and hazy.

The fact that the Basque language is generally regarded as non-Indo-European (as opposed to, say, pre-Indo-European) confuses things, because, for good or ill, the origin of R1b seems irrevocably tied to the Basques. Otherwise, the connection between R1b and Indo-European languages would be as obvious as a hammer blow to the head.

Now there is confirmation of some kind of connection between R1b and Bell Beaker Folk. That should clinch the IE bona fides, but the R1a partisans will resist that tooth and nail until some ancient R1b is actually recovered from the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

But what if the P-C steppe isn't really the IE Urheimat in the first place?

(That's kind of a rhetorical question. No need to marshal the steppe Urheimat arguments.)



Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on May 05, 2012, 01:52:58 PM
The fact that the Basque language is generally regarded as non-Indo-European (as opposed to, say, pre-Indo-European) confuses things

I rather think that the Basques will have to give up the notion of themselves as 100% pure descendants of the artists of Lascaux (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lascaux). My latest thinking is that they seem to be as mixed as the rest of us: descendants not of one wave of people taking refuge in the shadow of the Pyrenees, but several. I have realised that I was wrong and you were right when you said that before the arrival of R1b in the region, the people there would have been mainly I2a1a (M26). That seems to have spread with Cardial Ware. I'm assuming that both R1b and Proto-Basque arrived in Gascony together from the Balkans. The Copper Age Artenac Culture is considered the origin  of the Aquitanians, who are considered the ancestors of the Basques. But that just leads to the question of the origin of the Artenac Culture, generally considered local.  
  


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 05, 2012, 02:24:59 PM
Also DQ112894, published on Ian Logan spreadsheet and belonging to K1a1b1e, is Italian:
See:  T. Kivisild et al., “The Role of Selection in the Evolution of Human Mitochondrial Genomes”, Genetics Society of America, 2006: Eu25   Italian


EF657432, published in Herrnstadt et al., Reduced-median-network analysis of complete mitochondrial DNA coding-region sequences for the major African, Asian, and European haplogroups, Am. J. Hum. Genet. 70 (5), 1152-1171 (2002), was submitted by (08-JUN-2007) Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology 'Ernesto Quagliariello', University of Bari, Via Orabona 4, Bari 70126, Italy.







Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: rms2 on May 05, 2012, 02:36:36 PM
The fact that the Basque language is generally regarded as non-Indo-European (as opposed to, say, pre-Indo-European) confuses things

I rather think that the Basques will have to give up the notion of themselves as 100% pure descendants of the artists of Lascaux (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lascaux). My latest thinking is that they seem to be as mixed as the rest of us: descendants not of one wave of people taking refuge in the shadow of the Pyrenees, but several. I have realised that I was wrong and you were right when you said that before the arrival of R1b in the region, the people there would have been mainly I2a1a (M26). That seems to have spread with Cardial Ware. I'm assuming that both R1b and Proto-Basque arrived in Gascony together from the Balkans. The Copper Age Artenac Culture is considered the origin  of the Aquitanians, who are considered the ancestors of the Basques. But that just leads to the question of the origin of the Artenac Culture, generally considered local.  
  

I tend to think the Basque language was already there with the I-M26ers before R1b arrived.

What I meant by R1b being irrevocably tied to the Basques is that their non-IE language is constantly used and regarded as the ultimate argument against R1b as a vehicle of early Indo-European. "The Proto-Indo-Europeans couldn't have been R1b, because the Basques are mostly R1b and speak a non-IE language!" So the story goes.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: MHammers on May 05, 2012, 02:58:15 PM
The fact that the Basque language is generally regarded as non-Indo-European (as opposed to, say, pre-Indo-European) confuses things

I rather think that the Basques will have to give up the notion of themselves as 100% pure descendants of the artists of Lascaux (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lascaux). My latest thinking is that they seem to be as mixed as the rest of us: descendants not of one wave of people taking refuge in the shadow of the Pyrenees, but several. I have realised that I was wrong and you were right when you said that before the arrival of R1b in the region, the people there would have been mainly I2a1a (M26). That seems to have spread with Cardial Ware. I'm assuming that both R1b and Proto-Basque arrived in Gascony together from the Balkans. The Copper Age Artenac Culture is considered the origin  of the Aquitanians, who are considered the ancestors of the Basques. But that just leads to the question of the origin of the Artenac Culture, generally considered local.  
  

I tend to think the Basque language was already there with the I-M26ers before R1b arrived.

What I meant by R1b being irrevocably tied to the Basques is that their non-IE language is constantly used and regarded as the ultimate argument against R1b as a vehicle of early Indo-European. "The Proto-Indo-Europeans couldn't have been R1b, because the Basques are mostly R1b and speak a non-IE language!" So the story goes.

I've never understood this argument of Basque=R1b, therefore not IE.  Most, if not all of the Basque R1b is young.  Also, I don't think R1b has to come from the steppe to be IE speakers, even if you follow the Gimbutas/Anthony PIE model.  Even, R1a looks like it came to Europe from Anatolia based on the SNP patterns.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on May 05, 2012, 03:11:08 PM
I tend to think the Basque language was already there with the I-M26ers before R1b arrived.

 Looks like a language from the age of metal. See Basques (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/basques.shtml). I  haven't been updating that text, so it does not reflect my latest thinking, but I do talk there about the words for metal. There have been a couple of linguistic puzzles hitherto which could be resolved by supposing that Proto-Basque had its origins somewhere near PIE.  

However I see no supporting archaeological evidence so far.




Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on May 05, 2012, 03:17:46 PM
Even, R1a looks like it came to Europe from Anatolia based on the SNP patterns.

That is because people have moved around a lot since 4000 BC. Some of the R1a1a in Anatolia could reflect fairly early IE arrivals e.g. the Mitanni. The present population of the steppe is not a reflection of who was there 4000 BC. Most of the R1a1a there now will  be Slavic.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: whoknows on May 05, 2012, 05:26:06 PM
Reading this hugely informative and learned thread, and others, I notice equally interesting posts from Maliclavelli, yet for whatever reason his/her contributions do not seem to attract many responses. Anyone able to enlighten me as to why that may be so?


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: MHammers on May 05, 2012, 05:53:55 PM
Even, R1a looks like it came to Europe from Anatolia based on the SNP patterns.

That is because people have moved around a lot since 4000 BC. Some of the R1a1a in Anatolia could reflect fairly early IE arrivals e.g. the Mitanni. The present population of the steppe is not a reflection of who was there 4000 BC. Most of the R1a1a there now will  be Slavic.

I'm talking about the levels above R1a1a from a "big picture" perspective.  Although the sample is small,  it shows a SE to NW/NE movement into Europe.  There is nothing to suggest a central Asian to the steppe with that pattern, though that could change.  Yes, some probably are IE incursions into Anatolia, I just think R1a was initially some kind of meso- or neolithic people who settled eastern Europe before they became part of the IE world.  I agree, though about R1a1a and after.  It seems to emerge out of eastern Europe, the Slavs being one of the later large movements.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on May 05, 2012, 06:02:46 PM
I just think R1a was initially some kind of meso- or neolithic people who settled eastern Europe before they became part of the IE world.  

I'd say the same in slightly different words. As far as anyone can make out, the first speakers of PIE were hunter-gatherers who had adopted pastoralism/farming from  their neighbours. That fits the archaeological picture among the riverine communities on the steppe. There was interaction between them and farming neighbours, which fits R1a1 combined with some Mesolithic and some Neolithic mtDNA in Andronovo. The latter is the nearest we have come so far to the DNA pattern at the eastern end of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. 


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 05, 2012, 06:37:12 PM
Well obviously Alan your model will be far better than the one I constructed yonks ago based on archaeology, linguistics, genetics and anything else I can think of. That goes without saying. You are a man. :) 

???? what does that mean??


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on May 05, 2012, 06:44:43 PM
@ Alan

Don't worry about it. It's a joke among women.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Humanist on May 05, 2012, 06:45:55 PM
That is because people have moved around a lot since 4000 BC. Some of the R1a1a in Anatolia could reflect fairly early IE arrivals e.g. the Mitanni.

Sure, that is a possibility.  However, the dominant haplogroup of all three groups with the longest ties to the region once inhabited by Mitanni, the Assyrians, Armenians, and the Alawites of N Syria (also, some Druze, before migrating south, to their present location, relatively recently), is R-M269.  The Druze and Alawite modals, among non-European populations, are the most similar to the AMH.  

Also, Mitanni words for their chariot-warrior caste, horse, and other words from the Kikkuli text (e.g. "danna"), have survived in Assyrian-Aramaic (marya, maryannu, susa*, dana).  The words mariya and mariyana are now associated with shepherding and agriculture.  

*ašušanni (Mitanni for horse-trainer).  "[V]owels and even whole syllables were often dropped in Neo-Assyrian at the beginning of words."  Dr. Simo Parpola, Assyriologist.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 05, 2012, 06:48:56 PM
@ Alan

Don't worry about it. It's a joke among women.

Eh..OK but it came across as a bit weird.  I am not a sexist sort of guy or someone who needs to be right.  I just want to see a range of opinions minus biases like nationalistic feeling etc.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on May 05, 2012, 06:57:08 PM
@ Alan

Of course you aren't a sexist Alan.

The joke was summed up in a cartoon I once saw of a group of business men around a conference table and one woman. The chairman is saying "That was quite a good idea, Miss Smith. Would one of you men like to propose it?"

It cracks me up, but I see that it was quite misplaced here. My apologies.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 05, 2012, 07:29:48 PM
.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 05, 2012, 08:25:36 PM
@ Alan

Of course you aren't a sexist Alan.

The joke was summed up in a cartoon I once saw of a group of business men around a conference table and one woman. The chairman is saying "That was quite a good idea, Miss Smith. Would one of you men like to propose it?"

It cracks me up, but I see that it was quite misplaced here. My apologies.

The fact that that joke came to mind as a result of my post implies that you thought that my posting my version of a beaker model was some sort of parallel to that conference scenario.  All I posted was a variant (which is what I called it) of a beaker model which has always been one of only 2 possibilities since the ice age refugia idea has died.  Seeing the beaker model has some new evidence all I wanted was people's take on it.  The devil is in the detail and I am sure we all have different feelings on that detail and their own personal variants on the beaker model.  Maybe I am being touchy but it came across strangely.  Anyway, I appreciate the apology and I appreciate the work you do and service you provide to people interested in this area. 

Alan, while I slightly favor the Mediterranean route slightly over the Danube route, if I was scoring points based on aDNA, I would have the first few rounds all going to the Danube theory. This is based of course on the Late Neolithic Trielles and Otzi samples. However, there are still a lot of rounds to go, so I'm excited to see where this all goes.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 05, 2012, 10:57:44 PM
Reading this hugely informative and learned thread, and others, I notice equally interesting posts from Maliclavelli, yet for whatever reason his/her contributions do not seem to attract many responses. Anyone able to enlighten me as to why that may be so?
Dear Whoknows, but who knows you?
I am not a “she” but a “he”, exactly that Gioiello Tognoni K1a1b1e. Why do a few reply to me? For many reasons.
1)   Mine are scientific observations and to reply to me one should know enough to understand what I say, and evidently there are a few, also amongst many versed in other fields, who get this (see the famous Nordtvedt, Vizachero, Klyosov, or the popular Jean Manco etc.). But I have many friends here, first of all Richard Stevens, who invited me here after my banishments from Rootsweb, Dna-forums and lastly also Dienekes and Maju evidently don’t like me much. But Richard Rocca had the intelligence to not underestimate my theories.
2)   I am Italian, Tuscan, and evidently Wasp have always some prejudice against us “pizza” and “mandolino”. They cannot say to me “mafia” because I am a Tuscan and of Sicilian I have only the wife.
3)   But the most important reason is that my theories, which I think are winning along all the line, were against the believing of all, also of the plethora of geneticists and researchers who haven’t understood anything of this stuff so far.

On SMGF there are 24 “Wasp” probably K1a1b1e like me with the mutations
16224C
16311C
16519C
73G
263G
315.1C
477C
497T

I am waiting that someone test them for the coding region. After I think that my theory shall be recognized by everyone.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: razyn on May 06, 2012, 01:05:59 AM
I'm strangely reminded of the tale about a mother watching proudly as her son's regiment marched by.  She said to her neighbor: "Oh, just look -- they're all out of step, except my Johnny!"

Anyway, it's an open forum, and we're all entitled to respond to the people or ideas we find interesting.  And not to respond to nonsense; to respond only once to the same assertion, endlessly repeated; to decline to engage in interminable debate of notions we have already considered and dismissed.

And by the way, I play mandolin... or even (for my sins) my 1920s Luigi Giulietti accordion, when my wife is playing her mandolin.  I live in a large metropolitan area, and if people in our audience want "Torna a Surriento," they get it -- no problem.  Two of our three grandsons (all of whom I love) are Italian-American, on their mom's side.  Really -- Italy is not the problem, here.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 06, 2012, 02:22:27 AM
On Mitosearch there are two haplotypes like these ones:
A9ZQZ, Y6FRN
16224C 16311C 16519C 73G 263G 315.1C 477C 497T

I have put XWAU7 with also 16189C.

Another haplotype with 16259Y I haven’t put on Mitosearch because the heteroplasmy isn’t considered.

These all people have an ancestry from the Isles.

To Razyn I say that what he says Jean Manco has said frequently, also lastly on Dna-forums, and asked that an answer of mine were censured (she offended me, I replied with irony), but now is searching to save her theories with these last “Italian corridor”. I am grieving at her.

About your origin (Hulan, Holan? There was a Czech poet) I’ll say something definitive next.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Heber on May 06, 2012, 04:08:46 AM
Alan,

Thank you for posting this thread. Here is my opinion of the migration of M269 to M222.

M269. Anatolian Neolithic. In my opinion, the first wave of M269 came From the "Womb of Nations", out of Anatolia. M269 would have been aware of Gobelki Tepe, Nevali Cori and Catal Huyak and other great archealogy sites of Anatolia. The ancestor of M269 could have come from further north in the Cascusas. The first wave was by sea and settled the farming communities in Crete and the Greek Islands and later Cyprus. Later waves would have moved up the Danube as far as the Iron Gates.
L23. Balkens Neolithic. This appears to be a Balkans, Thessaly and Greece migration. Could they have later founded Troy and the Mineoan civilisations. I am always impressed by the similarity of Minoan and Mycean  Bull statues and later Celtic and Iberian representations of the same. This could have been the dividing point between the Maritine and Danube river migrations.
L51. Rivers Neolithic. This is found in large concentrations in Northern Italy Po Valley, The Rhone valley, Loire Valley, Tagus Valley, Garonne and Erne River Valley in Ireland. Route of the Stelae People from the Danube. I begin to see major nodes of communication, both maritime and river, emerge such as the the above as well as Morbihan and Tartessus.
L11. Atlantic Megalithic. This is associated with the Atlantic Megalithic centred around the hubs of Tartessos, Tagus, Galicia, Morbihan, Stonehenge and Boyne Valley. There appears to be continuity between the Megalithic and later Copper, Bronze and Iron Ages.
P312. Copper Age. This is the Bell Beaker Culture, meeting with the Stelae people culture, originating in Tagus, Rio Tinto, Huevla, Los Millares and ascending the great rivers of Europe via the already established hubs of Morbihan and reaching the centre of Europe and contacts with U106 in Germany and their ancestors who took the Danube route.
L21. Bronze Age. Probably born in Iberia, Tartessos or Morbihan in France,  this Celtic marker used the existing river networks to interact with U152 in Alpine Europe and migrated to the Isles.
DF23. Iron Age. This is the North South cluster and represents the trading networks between Iberia and the Isles.
M222. Historic Period. We begin to enter the historic period with the signature of Niall of the Nine Hostages, who gave Way to the Clans of Ireland, O Neill, McDonnell....,  and the Dal Riadian Clans of Scotland.

https://www.box.com/shared/b3ff9f377700af24ddce

http://db.tt/uk2FOrMx

Edit: Added map Celtic Migrations Map and Age Labels.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 06, 2012, 04:37:15 AM
The haplotype of JQ704207 seems rarer, but there is also an English, probably belonging to this haplogroup, on SMGF:

        1 gatcacaggt ctatcaccct attaaccact cacgggagct ctccatgcat ttggtatttt
       61 cgtctggggg gtgtgcacgc gatagcattg cgagacgctg gagccggagc accTtatgtc
      121 gcagtatctg tctttgattc ctgccCcatc ctattattta tcgcacctac gttcaatatt

Lilian Ottaway, 1884, Woking, Surrey, England:

16184A 16224C 16311C 16519C 73G 114T 146C 263G 315.1C 497T

But probably Behar et al. were unlucky, because this haplotype is probably derived from a previous one without the back mutation in 146, then with 146T (or with a new mutation from C to T)

16184A 16224C 16311C 16519C 73G 114T 263G 315.1C 497T

Even though it is difficult to think to all these back muations, the transversion in 16184 seems very rare and happened before.

There are on SMGF 3 people : 2 Australians of British descend (Quirk) and a Pole, Wolf, of German descend, and we find this haplotype also in the core of the Bell Beaker. Difficult to say by which path.



Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 06, 2012, 04:56:43 AM
And certainly this K1a with back mutations in 73 and 263 is noteworthy:

Mary Cain, 1830 County Mayo, Ireland:

16093Y 16224C 16311C 16519C 315.1C 497T   

And also Mary Susan Bailey, 1891, Sanford, Colorado, USA :

16224C 16311C 16519C 315.1C 497T   


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 06, 2012, 05:00:59 AM

Rich R
I am not in any way committed to any model and i put my spin on the beaker model out there simply because it allows others to pick holes in it and find the weaknesses in it which saves me a lot of work!  To be honest I would be perfectly happy with a Danube model too or a mixed one.  The main issue that is still a bit of a leap of faith is how L11 got from 'L23 land'.  That still is a jump and the evidence to date is fairly subtle, certainly not a handy blazing trail of a full culture leading from L23 land to the west.   I really like your L51 map.  It does look uncannily like some sort of arrival in the SE France/NW Italy area followed by dispersal towards well known beaker nodes like Portugal, Holland, NW France, eastwards too. I just suspect that the L51* map is a handy echo of some early dispersal that probably was predominantly L11 and subclades but was early enough to still have a number of L51* folk among them.  Its also interesting where they concentrated.  Could be pure chance but could indicate that in the areas where L51* is higher that it was either pre-L11* or that L11's dominance in the group had not been established.  Even though it may be a paragroup, I do think your map is significant and there is no question that it has picked up a rather distinct pattern.  


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 06, 2012, 05:19:44 AM
See Mitosearch PESXC and also Z9F22, 4CDDS, 85ABU.

JG Weston says: “Lilian Ethel Ottoway was my grand mother, she may have been adopted”.

And of course the most interesting is 85ABU:
First Name: Pedro
Last Name: Ramiro
Year Born: About 1500
Year Died:
Country of Origin: Santa Cruz de la Salceda, Burgos, Spain

And what to think of 4CDDS?

Haplogroup:   K
Tested with:   Family Tree DNA
Contact person:   William T (Bill) Pool     Contact this user

Most distant known maternal ancestor on the direct female line
First Name:   Anne
Last Name:   Beddingfield
Year Born:   About 1855
Year Died:   
Country of Origin:   Hawkinsville ?, GA, Germany
Latitude:   33 deg 7 min N
Longitude:   84 deg 4 min W


Additional information about Maternal Line:
mother of Anne Beddingfield was a Davis, first name and date of birth unknown




Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on May 06, 2012, 05:22:07 AM
Alan, while I slightly favor the Mediterranean route slightly over the Danube route, if I was scoring points based on aDNA, I would have the first few rounds all going to the Danube theory.

Why see the Mediterranean and Danube routes as alternative theories? Both routes that I propose for Pre-Proto-Italic-Celtic went up the Danube as far as the Carpathian Basin. Then they split. http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/images/StelaePeople.jpg

I do not propose, and never have proposed, a completely separate route by sea directly out of the Black Sea to the Mediterranean for the Stelae People, even when I did not realise that stelae had been found in the Carpathian Basin. The people at the destinations of both routes were speaking descendants of the same language (or dialect of PIE) by the time they start writing things down. They had to be together for long enough to develop that dialect before they split. Plus the contact point for western and eastern BB is in the Carpathian Basin, plus BB people were later using the route via Cetina.



Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Humanist on May 06, 2012, 05:27:03 AM
Thank you for posting this thread. Here is my opinion of the migration of M269 to M222.

L23. This appears to be a Balkans, Thessaly and Greece migration. Could they have later founded Troy and the Mineoan civilisations. I am always impressed by the similarity of Minoan Bull statues and later Celtic representations of the same. This could have been the dividing point between the Maritine and Danube river migrations.

Hello, Heber.  I know your post was a reply to Alan, so, I hope you do not mind me sharing an opinion.

R-L23 in the Balkans is a possibility.  That I do not argue.  However, there is some data one must reconcile, in order to make it a more plausible scenario. 

The autosomal argument against 

The "North European" component from Dodecad K12b is found (if at all observed), at extremely low levels among populations with high frequencies of R-L23 (for the Near East), and relatively high STR diversity*.  For instance, in the Druze, it is 0.9%.  In Assyrians, it is also 0.9%.  Some Assyrians, such as myself, have 0.0% of the "North European" component (see DOD134).   I am also a "Nestorian."  The "Nestorians" appear to have the highest frequency of R-L23, of the different Assyrian groups (30%-40%).  Nestorians also appear to have the most abundant levels of the "Gedrosia" component.  The "North European" component in Armenians stands at 3%. 

The Y-DNA argument against

I1 and I2 are observed at 0% in Druze, 0% in Assyrians, and ~1% in Syrian Alawites.  In Armenians Y-DNA I is observed with modest frequency (5%), and limited mostly to I2c, but also a bit of I2a2a3, I2a2a, and I2a1b1.

R1a1 is observed at very low frequencies in Assyrians (2%), Druze (1%), and Syrian Alawites (~5%).  In Armenians, apart from some locations in E Armenia, it is also very low (average is 3%).

* Many of the men whose haplotypes are listed below are from the "Nestorian" church.  The smallest of the three principal Assyrian churches (the other two being the Syriac Orthodox Church, and the Chaldean Catholic Church).  The Levantine peoples, the Alawites, and especially the Druze, possess haplotypes that bear a stronger resemblance to those observed in Europe, and in particular, the AMH.

N Mesopotamian haplotypes

Code:
N=6 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
N=1 12 23 12 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28
N=1 12 24 13 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 30
N=1 12 24 13 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
N=1 12 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 12 13 14 29
N=1 12 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 13 13 29
N=1 12 24 14 10 12 15 12 12 12 12 13 26
N=1 12 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 12 14 27
N=1 12 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 12 14 28
N=1 12 25 14 10 11 13 12 12 12 13 14 29
N=1 12 26 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 29
N=1 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 11 14 13 30
N=1 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30



Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 06, 2012, 05:46:43 AM
Humanist, where there is in Middle East R1b1 with YCA=18-22 and 18-23, the Mangino (Mancini) haplotype intermediate between R1b1 and R-M269, R-M269 with YCAII=17-23, R-L23 with L150-,
R-L51 (practically zero!) etc.?

If there are some haplotypes like the Western European ones, it does mean only that they came from Europe, like your mtDNA HV4.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Humanist on May 06, 2012, 06:37:36 AM
If there are some haplotypes like the Western European ones, it does mean only that they came from Europe, like your mtDNA HV4.

The Carballa et al. paper did suggest HV4 originated in E Europe, that is true.  And, based on the available data, I would conclude the same.  However, they have not sampled my population.  And several other minority groups from the Middle East (e.g. Iraqi Mandaeans).  Taking R-M269 as an example, one can see how conclusions regarding the origins of a haplogroup may be erroneous, due to insufficient sampling.  Furthermore, even if it did expand from E Europe, HV4a2 is estimated to to be 9.3 k years old.

HV4 in Assyrians (N=64)
HV4a2a
HV4a2a
HV4 (23andMe)
HV4b

At the end of the day, if HV4 originated in E Europe, ~14 k years ago, that is fine.  I can count, among my ancestors, a European woman.  I have no problem with that, since, as I have stated many times previously, I consider Europeans and West Asians to exist along the same relatively recent genetic continuum.  It is only people who, for whatever reason, have it in their mind that some imaginary, and significant difference exists, that have problems accepting this, and go out of their way to disprove a connection between the two.

Anyway, this thread is not about HV4.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 06, 2012, 07:06:15 AM
Humanist you are right, I agree with you, but, as you like to valorize your country, I think having the right to do it with mine. Think which were the ideas about Italy only a few years ago, and that now many speak of an Italian corridor for R1b is already something. But my thinking is that now they will hear the the best bit.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: rms2 on May 06, 2012, 08:02:47 AM
I'm not sure it is possible to use mtDNA frequency patterns and mtDNA aDNA evidence to make sense of the migratory path of a y haplogroup. Correct me if I am wrong, but in the case of Kromsdorf, the mtDNA recovered there mostly indicates that Beaker males were eclectic in their choice of women, and collected them from various sources.

I will be the first to admit, however, that I don't keep up with mtDNA stuff much. I hardly have time to keep up with y-dna stuff!


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 06, 2012, 08:11:02 AM
I'm not sure it is possible to use mtDNA frequency patterns and mtDNA aDNA evidence to make sense of the migratory path of a y haplogroup. Correct me if I am wrong, but in the case of Kromsdorf, the mtDNA recovered there mostly indicates that Beaker males were eclectic in their choice of women, and collected them from various sources.

I will be the first to admit, however, that I don't keep up with mtDNA stuff much. I hardly have time to keep up with y-dna stuff!

Yes, of course every haplogroup must be demonstrated per se, but, since we haven’t yet the aDNA of other places in Europe and more ancient, I tried to investigate the linked mtDNA. We shall see if I am right or wrong.
But these are:

Other two haplotypes linked probably with these ones:

16184A 16224C 16311C 16362C 16519C 73G 114T 263G 315.1C 497T

16092C 16184A 16224C 16311C 16519C 73G 114T 263G 315.1C 497T

All from the Isles.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: rms2 on May 06, 2012, 08:28:39 AM
I'm not sure it is possible to use mtDNA frequency patterns and mtDNA aDNA evidence to make sense of the migratory path of a y haplogroup. Correct me if I am wrong, but in the case of Kromsdorf, the mtDNA recovered there mostly indicates that Beaker males were eclectic in their choice of women, and collected them from various sources.

I will be the first to admit, however, that I don't keep up with mtDNA stuff much. I hardly have time to keep up with y-dna stuff!

Yes, of course every haplogroup must be demonstrated per se, but, since we haven’t yet the aDNA of other places in Europe and more ancient, I tried to investigate the linked mtDNA. We shall see if I am right or wrong.
But these are:

Other two haplotypes linked probably with these ones:

16184A 16224C 16311C 16362C 16519C 73G 114T 263G 315.1C 497T

16092C 16184A 16224C 16311C 16519C 73G 114T 263G 315.1C 497T

All from the Isles.



So, let me try to understand. You are saying those two haplotypes were found at Kromsdorf circa 2500 B.C. and that they match some modern British Isles people?

Is that right?

If so, are you saying the modern people in this case descend from women who lived in Kromsdorf around 2500 B.C.?

Pardon me if I am totally missing the point. I didn't pay much attention to the specific mtDNA haplotypes in the Kromsdorf paper.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 06, 2012, 08:37:17 AM
Rich, I have posted many contributes about the Kromsdorf haplotypes and I think having demonstrated that they are linked above all with Portugal, then Bell Beaker etc.

These haplotypes I think descend from my K1a1b1e which I think is born in Italy: see the last contribute about this of Behar et al. 2012b.

These haplotypes I have posted now on this thread and on another about K1a1b1e I think demonstrate what is for me the path: from Italy to Iberia 7500 years ago with the first agriculturalists who colonized Iberia by sea. I have found one of these haplotypes also in the Basque country beyond the Isles and also one in Germany. This is my hypothesis, but of course all these haplotypes should be tested for the coding region, but they have some rare mutations that I think they are linked: see 477C and 16184A (a transversion, very rare, probably unique in the mt database).


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: whoknows on May 06, 2012, 08:41:20 AM
Maliclavelli

Thank you for taking  the time to reply to my post,  I shall continue to read your contributions, and those of others, with an open mind and great interest. It is vital that we have divergent views on the subject, otherwise discussion simply degenerates into  a sort of monolithic conformity.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: rms2 on May 06, 2012, 08:52:53 AM
Rich, I have posted many contributes about the Kromsdorf haplotypes and I think having demonstrated that they are linked above all with Portugal, then Bell Beaker etc.

These haplotypes I think descend from my K1a1b1e which I think is born in Italy: see the last contribute about this of Behar et al. 2012b.

These haplotypes I have posted now on this thread and on another about K1a1b1e I think demonstrate what is for me the path: from Italy to Iberia 7500 years ago with the first agriculturalists who colonized Iberia by sea. I have found one of these haplotypes also in the Basque country beyond the Isles and also one in Germany. This is my hypothesis, but of course all these haplotypes should be tested for the coding region, but they have some rare mutations that I think they are linked: see 477C and 16184A (a transversion, very rare, probably unique in the mt database).

Sorry for my misunderstanding, Gioiello. I don't follow mtDNA posts much. That's not your fault; it's mine.

When I see those mtDNA haplotypes, my eyes start to glaze over.

I love my mother and grandmother, and all that, but mtDNA just doesn't do much for me. (Of course, I realize it's important.)


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Humanist on May 06, 2012, 09:35:25 AM
Humanist you are right, I agree with you, but, as you like to valorize your country, I think having the right to do it with mine. Think which were the ideas about Italy only a few years ago, and that now many speak of an Italian corridor for R1b is already something. But my thinking is that now they will hear the the best bit.

Maliclavelli, that is fine.  I have nothing but love for Italians.  I almost married one.  :)

However, I am not saying R-L23 is from N Mesopotamia.  But, I do believe West Asia in general, and Cilicia, N Syria, and the central and western parts of what is today Turkey in particular played an integral part in the spread of R-L23 to points west.  I say that because of the following data, and other evidence, thus far accumulated, in the genetic record:

Atlantic Modal Haplotype
13-24-14-11-11-14-12-12-12-13-13-29

Druze R1b modal and secondary haplotype (Shlush et al.)
13-24-14-11-xx-xx-12-12-xx-13-13-29
12-24-14-11-xx-xx-12-12-xx-13-13-29

Alawite R1b modal and secondary haplotype (Dönbak et al.)
13-24-14-11-11-15-xx-xx-xx-14-13-30
13-24-14-11-11-15-xx-xx-xx-13-13-29

Assyrian R1b modal haplotype (FTDNA)
13-24-14-10-11-14-12-12-12-14-13-30


I believe Italy and Sicily are an important piece to the puzzle.  As Peter H noted himself, a couple of years ago, in this private correspondence between he and I, "Besides Assyrians, the people who time and time again are closest to Armenians in all haplogroup branches are Italians from Sicily or Calabria."

For at least Assyrians, I would add two additional groups.  Iberians, and men of the British Isles.   This extends beyond R-M269, and includes (among other lines), for instance, G1*, J1* and, T-PS21.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 06, 2012, 05:23:57 PM
... I have nothing but love for Italians.  I almost married one.  :)...
I did.  Well, about 1/4 Italian, 1/4 Greek/Venetian, 1/4 Spanish, 1/4 Native American. It's great.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Humanist on May 06, 2012, 06:36:01 PM
... I have nothing but love for Italians.  I almost married one.  :)...
I did.  Well, about 1/4 Italian, 1/4 Greek/Venetian, 1/4 Spanish, 1/4 Native American. It's great.

Nice to see you around, Mike.  Too bad DNA-Forums is gone.  I know you had done a lot of work in the R section.   I always took your for an open-minded fella (you were one of the very few who took any interest in my posts), so, I am glad you are continuing your work on another forum.   :)


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Humanist on May 06, 2012, 07:13:53 PM
However, I am not saying R-L23 is from N Mesopotamia.  But, I do believe West Asia in general, and Cilicia, N Syria, and the central and western parts of what is today Turkey in particular played an integral part in the spread of R-L23 to points west.  I say that because of the following data, and other evidence, thus far accumulated, in the genetic record:

Atlantic Modal Haplotype
13-24-14-11-11-14-12-12-12-13-13-29

Druze R1b modal and secondary haplotype (Shlush et al.)
13-24-14-11-xx-xx-12-12-xx-13-13-29
12-24-14-11-xx-xx-12-12-xx-13-13-29

Alawite R1b modal and secondary haplotype (Dönbak et al.)
13-24-14-11-11-15-xx-xx-xx-14-13-30
13-24-14-11-11-15-xx-xx-xx-13-13-29

Assyrian R1b modal haplotype (FTDNA)
13-24-14-10-11-14-12-12-12-14-13-30

On the subject of the Druze, Andrew Oh-Willeke, on Dienekes' blog, wrote:

Quote
The multiple clusters of Druze is even more interesting because the Druze aren't nearly so geographically diverse, although this not too surprising because the Druze are unique genetically in many other respects (e.g. they are the only population with significant percentages of mtDNA hg X1, X2 and X* in the same population, strongly indicating a strong affinity with the source population for mtDNA hg X) and known to have a far amount of community specific substructure.

Quote
A 2008 paper calls them a refugium, but from whom and from where? Their mix of mtDNA X1, X2 and X* screams that this ethnicity has been distinctive since the Upper Paleolithic, not just for the last thousand years. What happened to the groups genetically intermediate between them and other Near Eastern populations?


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Humanist on May 06, 2012, 08:14:33 PM
Some of what I was referring to, in the posts above, regarding links (from another forum):

Quote
Two, of the very few "best" matches I have, are with men tracing their ancestry to Wales and England. I am a rare type of G1 (w/DYS494=8).
 

Quote
One of the haplotypes from our principal R-M269 Assyrian cluster is particularly "matchy" with men from the British Isles. At 25 markers, with a GD less than or equal to 2, these surnames are the most frequently observed, among the men of presumed British ancestry (there are 300+ in the FTDNA database for this specific Assyrian haplotype):

Davenport   6%   

Doty   15%   
Doughty   2%   
Dowty   1%   
----------------
18%

Elliot   6%   

Franklin   5%   

Harris   2%   

I have no knowledge of British surnames, so, please, anyone with further details or corrections, feel free to chime in.

The Davenport name immediately caught my eye, since there are also Davenport men among the extremely small number of J1* cases observed in northern Europe, in the FTDNA database (< 20). The J1* northern Europeans are removed by a few thousand years, from men of Armenian, Assyrian, etc. extraction.

Quote
An Assyrian J2a3b (M67) haplotype, based on the haplotypes in the Ysearch database, has the following "nearest" matches (2 steps) at 12 markers. Although the majority of Ysearch samples are from European men, there are a decent number of non-European haplotypes in the database.

1.Scotland
2.Portuguese?
3.Spaniard?
4.England
5.France
6.Anglo-American

Quote
One of Marko's older tree updates. Note the relationship between the Assyrian representative of our principal Y-DNA T line, and the Colonial American cluster. The date given is [roughly] 3700 ybp. The man with kit # 127673 is Puerto Rican.

Bonnie Schrack, J FTDNA Project admin:
Quote
In the 1K Genomes data, there was one Colombian in J1* the last time around, HG01494, and from just that one sample, we got all of those Z18... SNPs that have been so helpful.  Now, there are two more of them, though one of  them has very poor coverage.  And they are both Colombian!


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 06, 2012, 11:52:10 PM
I have no time now to answer your interesting posts, also that on the R1b haplotypes, they too close to those of my Tuscan relatives, but I have posted here and in a thread of the mtDNA section the “demonstration” of the link of my mtDNA K1a1b1e with the Isles, Ireland and Scotland. Someone says that the mtDNA doesn’t demonstrate the link of the Y, but we are now arriving to discriminate the haplotypes by a single SNP and to demonstrate the link is easier.
Re: your G1* I have said to you many times in the past that you found links with Italy and before and after Ötzi’s G2a4 (or G2a2), which is clearly Italian from very ancient times, I have said that we have no proofs that this haplogroup is Caucasian in spite of its highest frequency there, because probably it was linked with the obsidian commerce and with the 15,000 years ago sailors of the Aegean Sea and the Italian Islands.



Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Heber on May 07, 2012, 02:00:01 AM
Thank you for posting this thread. Here is my opinion of the migration of M269 to M222.

L23. This appears to be a Balkans, Thessaly and Greece migration. Could they have later founded Troy and the Mineoan civilisations. I am always impressed by the similarity of Minoan Bull statues and later Celtic representations of the same. This could have been the dividing point between the Maritine and Danube river migrations.

Hello, Heber.  I know your post was a reply to Alan, so, I hope you do not mind me sharing an opinion.

R-L23 in the Balkans is a possibility.  That I do not argue.  However, there is some data one must reconcile, in order to make it a more plausible scenario. 

The autosomal argument against 

The "North European" component from Dodecad K12b is found (if at all observed), at extremely low levels among populations with high frequencies of R-L23 (for the Near East), and relatively high STR diversity*.  For instance, in the Druze, it is 0.9%.  In Assyrians, it is also 0.9%.  Some Assyrians, such as myself, have 0.0% of the "North European" component (see DOD134).   I am also a "Nestorian."  The "Nestorians" appear to have the highest frequency of R-L23, of the different Assyrian groups (30%-40%).  Nestorians also appear to have the most abundant levels of the "Gedrosia" component.  The "North European" component in Armenians stands at 3%. 

The Y-DNA argument against

I1 and I2 are observed at 0% in Druze, 0% in Assyrians, and ~1% in Syrian Alawites.  In Armenians Y-DNA I is observed with modest frequency (5%), and limited mostly to I2c, but also a bit of I2a2a3, I2a2a, and I2a1b1.

R1a1 is observed at very low frequencies in Assyrians (2%), Druze (1%), and Syrian Alawites (~5%).  In Armenians, apart from some locations in E Armenia, it is also very low (average is 3%).




Humanist,
My analysis is only looking at the westward migration from M269 to M222. I have not looked closely at an Eastern or Southern migration although I believe L23* is found Further north in the Caucasus an further east as far as Pakistan.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 07, 2012, 04:21:36 AM
I am seeing now that a sample with 16184A has been tested by Behar et al. and assigned to K1a1b1, then it hasn’t the mutation of K1a1b1e:

SAMPLE ID: JQ702781
Unresolved Options:
Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: C114T; T1717g; T14674Y; T16092C; C16184a;
Topologically Missing:
Country: Germany
Geography:
Ancestry:
Reference: Behar 2012b
Contact:

It is interesting that these sample are above all European and are also the ancestors of K1a1b1a.

A similar haplotype is probably FTDNA 118362, Helen Pursel, 1843-1910, USA.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 07, 2012, 04:34:24 AM
But why these haplotypes are maintained K1a1b1 with these mutations like 16184A and also 114T so diffused? Probably they too should be assigned to a subclade of K1a1b1.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on May 08, 2012, 01:31:51 PM
... (and what I have long thought) is the early dates from the French Midi=the south of France.  That is a much better match for the variance and also geographically more likely if you are looking for a point where beaker could have come into existence in western Europe and radiated out from using the Rhone, Rhine, Med., Loire and Danube.  

I don't know where L11, P312, U106, etc. arose, but I agree with you and RRocca's general theme that there was expansion of L11 based folks from SE France/the West Alps.

That doesn't mean that was the start for L11, though, or L51. It could be.  It would be nice to figure out where this started. If it was really Anatolia, the Lower Danube or even in the Steppes or Caucasus.  It may have been just L23* then.  I don't know.

I tend to agree with most of this analysis as well.  My L-2+ Fits with these populations.  In Genebase they have a compilation of 12 different population studies (32,374 Indigenous Individuals) with selected markers in each one.  My comparison yields the highest RMI (Relative Match Index) and my highest scores, besides U.S. Caucasion are Northern Portugal (41.87) and Tyrol, Austria/Northern Italy(35.69).  Other significant matches are Ibizia, Corsica, and Sardinia.

Instead of spreading by land is it possible that these populations are related by trading by water (except for Tyrol of course which is high in the mountains)?

Anyone know of a correlation between Northern Portugal and Tyrol?


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 08, 2012, 04:21:59 PM
I doubt the steepes is the origin. There is very little in Central Asia.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Mark Jost on June 06, 2012, 12:15:49 PM
In a paper published in
Proceedings of the Academy of DNA Genealogy
Boston-Moscow-Tsukuba
Volume 5, No. 2
February 2012

Page 38

New Understanding of Western Eurasia in Prehistoric Times.
Anton Perdih*, Petr Jandáček

Abstract
Politics of European dynasties of the 19th Century AD had an inordinate impact
upon the nomenclature of the then emerging field of linguistics. One trivial
isogloss - for "One Hundred" in Avestian "Satem" and in Latin "Centum/Kentum"
had become sacrosanct for many as the absolute divide between two forms of
"Indo-Germanic" languages. Yet another basic tenant of the 19th Century
understanding was that the Slavs arrived in central Europe only recently. There
is no evidence concerning the migrations of Slovenes or Macedonians during the
6th or 7th Centuries AD. Such mythology of migrations was fabricated between
the 15th and 20th Century AD and has no documentation. There is ample evidence
for the arrival of all of the neighbors of the Slovenes. There is also evidence for
the migration of most of the neighbors of the Macedonians. Written sources of
that time present explicitly that Slovenes were also called “Veneti”. Some data
indicate that part of the ancestors of present Slovenes arrived from the southeast
of Balkans, where they were the aboriginal settlers. "Genetic" data indicate that
Slovenes are a mix of three main groups and some of their ancestors lived in
their territories prior to 40,000 years ago. For a better understanding of Europe in
antiquity it is imperative to establish as a fact that the ancestors of the Slovenes
had resided in central Europe for thousands of years. There is increasingly more
evidence that the older versions of all Indo-European languages are more like
Slovene than are their more modern forms. The Kentum I-E languages are
derived from Satem ones and not vice versa. These events did not proceed
through internal developments in the proto-Slavic I-E languages, but primarily
by the influence of proto-Slavic on neighbouring non-I-E languages and vice
versa. Subsequently, it was followed by elite dominance effect of some of the
newly formed Kentum groups over some of the Satem ones. A new system of
understanding the Indo-European Languages as "Core" and "Peripheral" is
proposed for the 21st Century. We reach an understanding of true agriculture
from foundations of proto-Slavic hunters, gatherers, fishers, and other preagrarian
economies. This Proto-Slavic phenomenon is manifest not only in lands
now occupied by Slavs but also in Asia Minor, Levant, and Egypt. Proto-Slavs in
Europe had a profound linguistic influence in antiquity. This Proto-Slavic
element is made conspicuous in this thesis from the British Isles to Anatolia and
from the Baltic Slope to the Italian peninsula and western Europe. The Proto-
Slavic preeminence had been replaced by Hellenic, Roman and Germanic in
more recent centuries.

This paper has an interesting section that proposes a new Unified Proto Indo European Theory (UPIET). Starting at Page 80.

http://aklyosov.home.comcast.net/~aklyosov/

PDF at:
http://aklyosov.home.comcast.net/5-2%202012.pdf


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: rms2 on June 06, 2012, 07:55:27 PM
Quote
The Kentum I-E languages are derived from Satem ones and not vice versa. The Kentum I-E languages are derived from Satem ones and not vice versa.

I don't believe that statement represents the consensus of linguistic opinion. The lengthy quote it was taken from sounds like some sort of Pan-Slavic propaganda more than anything else.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Arch Y. on June 07, 2012, 12:50:00 AM
I doubt the steepes is the origin. There is very little in Central Asia.

I have a question to the SW Asian component that all Western R1b for which people like Dieneke's speak of.  What exactly is that component and what region of SW Asia specifically signals that component to R1b in Western Europe???????  What SW Asian people does Western European R1b closely relate to?????  Obviously the SW Asian people do not possess any R1b components so how do we know where we connect????

Arch


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Arch Y. on June 07, 2012, 01:00:05 AM
Quote
The Kentum I-E languages are derived from Satem ones and not vice versa. The Kentum I-E languages are derived from Satem ones and not vice versa.

I don't believe that statement represents the consensus of linguistic opinion. The lengthy quote it was taken from sounds like some sort of Pan-Slavic propaganda more than anything else.

I'm glad that I'm not the only one that is seeing an agenda from certain people who seem to be very well educated on genetics.  It's hard enough to get the facts and prove the real scientific data without having more flies in the ointment.  I just get a bit irritated when the same flies come from the scientific geneticist community itself all just to create a book in order to make a quick buck.  There should be a ban on funding and research for these scientists who in essence create garbage for profit. Unfortunately some of the culprits of are high up on the food chain in some of the popular genomic testing companies and even universities.  Where's the science?

Arch


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Arch Y. on June 07, 2012, 01:30:33 AM
In a paper published in
Proceedings of the Academy of DNA Genealogy
Boston-Moscow-Tsukuba
Volume 5, No. 2
February 2012


I found this little gem in this travesty of a paper that in my opinion is written with an agenda to promote the greatness of Slavic R1a and other non-R1b people of deeper ancestry such haplogroup G, etc.  Here is the gem: "We see also the possibility that the R1b people in Europe persecuted the R1a, I, and G people for centuries after their own bottleneck event."

To the authors: Oh really? So now us R1b are not only ruthless, uneducated and hairy barbarians but under a united front we had the means to persecute people.  We were barely even surviving from our own stupidity and inability to make great monuments, etc, so how could that be?  From my understanding in history, most of the infamous treachery came from the rich, famous and powerful for which many R1a people became.  I would love for the authors of this tripe show me in history where R1b persecuted R1a people.

Thanks for finding this article, now I won't be able to sleep tonight. :-)

Arch
 


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Maliclavelli on June 07, 2012, 08:02:57 AM
I haven’t ever used the word bullshit as others do frequently, but in face of this statements I say: “Bullshit”.

“The Kentum I-E languages are derived from Satem ones and not vice versa. These events did not proceed through internal developments in the proto-Slavic I-E languages, but primarily by the influence of proto-Slavic on neighbouring non-I-E languages and vice-versa”.

To say this does mean to have no idea of Glottology: no language all over the world knows  Ky from sh but sh from ky. IE for "100" is *Kymtom. Hope that Anatole Klyosov isn't beyond this paper. I have criticized him for many things, but I esteem him too. If he has something to do with this statement, I'll begin to say again: "A massive waste of time".




Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Mark Jost on June 07, 2012, 08:27:46 AM
In a paper published in
Proceedings of the Academy of DNA Genealogy
Boston-Moscow-Tsukuba
Volume 5, No. 2
February 2012


I found this little gem in this travesty of a paper that in my opinion is written with an agenda to promote the greatness of Slavic R1a and other non-R1b people of deeper ancestry such haplogroup G, etc.  Here is the gem: "We see also the possibility that the R1b people in Europe persecuted the R1a, I, and G people for centuries after their own bottleneck event."

To the authors: Oh really? So now us R1b are not only ruthless, uneducated and hairy barbarians but under a united front we had the means to persecute people.  We were barely even surviving from our own stupidity and inability to make great monuments, etc, so how could that be?  From my understanding in history, most of the infamous treachery came from the rich, famous and powerful for which many R1a people became.  I would love for the authors of this tripe show me in history where R1b persecuted R1a people.

Thanks for finding this article, now I won't be able to sleep tonight. :-)

Arch
 

I have to admit that I missed this due to my speed reading the concepts of the article which when you pointed it out, I was miffed as well. Now to be fair to AK, I couldnt find any similar reference (or did he have that type of tone in his own papers) to the subject in his own papers but it could have been in the Russian language portions. Maybe Anatole Klyosov didnt read the details presented as well?

What do you say Anatole Klyosov?

I still wish to see a deeper review of the the flow of I-E languages into and/or movement through Europe and all opinions are still on the table.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: acekon on June 07, 2012, 09:56:21 AM
: 0

  


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Richard Rocca on June 07, 2012, 10:02:26 AM
Are the "Academy of DNA Genealogy" and/or the "Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy" legitimate institutions? The home address of the former seems to be a nice two-story colonial in suburban Newton, Massachusetts.

If these "Academies" exist outside of the collective minds of a few, please let me know where so I can arrange a group site visit.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Arch Y. on June 07, 2012, 03:18:39 PM
Are the "Academy of DNA Genealogy" and/or the "Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy" legitimate institutions? The home address of the former seems to be a nice two-story colonial in suburban Newton, Massachusetts.

If these "Academies" exist outside of the collective minds of a few, please let me know where so I can arrange a group site visit.

I was browsing Mr. A.K.'s credentials and it reeks of diploma and/or certificate mills.  I would sincerely doubt a person with as much background as him could produce so much crap in the short amount that he has.  Taking a closer look at the dates of his achievements, etc., they all seem to be quite some time ago.  If I recall correctly, not a single one was less than 5 years old; I guess genetics brings out the nuts.  I will pretty much be dismissing anything that has his name attached to it.

Arch


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: NealtheRed on June 07, 2012, 03:26:13 PM
Are the "Academy of DNA Genealogy" and/or the "Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy" legitimate institutions? The home address of the former seems to be a nice two-story colonial in suburban Newton, Massachusetts.

If these "Academies" exist outside of the collective minds of a few, please let me know where so I can arrange a group site visit.

The good doctor lives in New England.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: ironroad41 on June 07, 2012, 03:45:04 PM
Are the "Academy of DNA Genealogy" and/or the "Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy" legitimate institutions? The home address of the former seems to be a nice two-story colonial in suburban Newton, Massachusetts.

If these "Academies" exist outside of the collective minds of a few, please let me know where so I can arrange a group site visit.

I was browsing Mr. A.K.'s credentials and it reeks of diploma and/or certificate mills.  I would sincerely doubt a person with as much background as him could produce so much crap in the short amount that he has.  Taking a closer look at the dates of his achievements, etc., they all seem to be quite some time ago.  If I recall correctly, not a single one was less than 5 years old; I guess genetics brings out the nuts.  I will pretty much be dismissing anything that has his name attached to it.

Arch

When he first started posting on rootsweb two to three years ago, he wasn't well received.  He talked about his chemical kinetics approach and discounted everyone elses work.  I was and still am skeptical of his results but he has garnered some believers, Didier?, e.g.  Ken and many other of the high powered folks have left rootsweb and Chandlers criticisms of late have been more about presentation than substance, so I can't figure out where he's at.

I like the fact that for long increments of time he uses the 22 slowest dys loci, that just makes sense to me.  I haven't studied where he got his hidden mutations correction factor, but that also makes sense.

He has started a business in the US, taught at a University and is apparently well regarded by his Russian Peers and his papers are accepted for publication, but as he says himself, that, necessarily, doesn't mean too much when you are discussing the subject complexity we have with this problem.

I plan to read his papers this winter and see if I can figure out where he is coming from and try to understand what he really knows.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Mark Jost on June 08, 2012, 09:46:48 AM
I haven’t ever used the word bullshit as others do frequently, but in face of this statements I say: “Bullshit”.

“The Kentum I-E languages are derived from Satem ones and not vice versa. These events did not proceed through internal developments in the proto-Slavic I-E languages, but primarily by the influence of proto-Slavic on neighbouring non-I-E languages and vice-versa”.

To say this does mean to have no idea of Glottology: no language all over the world knows  Ky from sh but sh from ky. IE for "100" is *Kymtom. ...

I am sure the Trade routes in Pre-history made much differences in the language of trade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans
"Another hypothesis connected with the Black Sea deluge theory suggests that PIE originated as the language of trade between early Neolithic Black Sea tribes.[13] Under this hypothesis, University of Pennsylvania archaeologist Fredrik T. Hiebert proposes that the transition from PIE to IE dispersion occurred during the deluge.[14]"


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on June 08, 2012, 10:12:36 AM
"Another hypothesis connected with the Black Sea deluge theory suggests that PIE originated as the language of trade between early Neolithic Black Sea tribes.[13] Under this hypothesis, University of Pennsylvania archaeologist Fredrik T. Hiebert proposes that the transition from PIE to IE dispersion occurred during the deluge.[14]"

How potty can theories get? No language originates as a language of trade. The only possible exceptions are modern constructed languages such as Esperanto, specifically designed to be an easily-learned language for international communication. The fact that Esperanto has been largely ignored in favour of English as the modern international lingua franca tells us a lot about the way that languages get adopted for such a purpose. A language becomes a lingua franca if it is already widely spoken in the region concerned, or in this case internationally.

The fascination with the Biblical deluge story has generated endless ideas about the origin of the story, which tend to want to give it some huge importance. In fact the Black Sea flood was far earlier than PIE and would have had a minimal impact on surrounding populations. See National origin stories: Deluge (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/originstories.shtml#Deluge).


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Mark Jost on June 08, 2012, 10:56:11 AM
Maybe not "Originated"  but derived and later improved, because, part to its specialization vocabulary PIE may well have spread from a parent to a trade language just as Amerindians did even before Europeans arrived.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobilian_Jargon

"Mobilian Jargon facilitated trade between tribes speaking different languages and European settlers. There is continuing debate as to when Mobilian Jargon first began to be spoken. Some scholars, such as James Crawford, have argued that Mobilian Jargon has its origins in the linguistically diverse environment following the establishment of the French colony of Louisiana. Others, however, suggest that the already linguistically diverse environment of the lower Mississippi basin drove the need for a common method of communication prior to regular contact with Europeans."

The same concept can be considered for Centum-satem isogloss of PIE where traders, ect used simplified syllable and sound structure and a simplified grammar as compared to a primary parent language?


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on June 08, 2012, 11:25:01 AM
The same concept can be considered for Centum-satem isogloss of PIE where traders, ect used simplified syllable and sound structure and a simplified grammar as compared to a primary parent language?

The centum-satem isogloss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum-satem_isogloss) has nothing to do with simplification. It is a straightforward sound change like many others that constantly occur. It just happens to have attracted a lot more attention than many others because at one time it seemed to divide IE languages geographically into eastern and western. Once it was recognised that Tocharian was centum, that idea had to be given up. The division is not geographical but chronological. The isogloss occurred after the progenitors of many branches of the IE tree had left the homeland, leaving only the rump in which the sound change occurred. That rump eventually broke up into the Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian groups.    


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Mark Jost on June 08, 2012, 11:41:46 AM
The same concept can be considered for Centum-satem isogloss of PIE where traders, ect used simplified syllable and sound structure and a simplified grammar as compared to a primary parent language?

The centum-satem isogloss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum-satem_isogloss) has nothing to do with simplification. It is a straightforward sound change like many others that constantly occur. It just happens to have attracted a lot more attention than many others because at one time it seemed to divide IE languages geographically into eastern and western. Once it was recognised that Tocharian was centum, that idea had to be given up. The division is not geographical but chronological. The isogloss occurred after the progenitors of many branches of the IE tree had left the homeland, leaving only the rump in which the sound change occurred. That rump eventually broke up into the Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian groups.    


I thought that when mentioning a (specific set of children such as Centum-satem) isogloss represents the fact the discussion is of commonality which both apply to the parent language, and that an isogloss is the geographical boundary of a certain linguistic feature. So I was alluding to the earlier parent language. [Note I am just trying to beginning to understand all of this so please be gental :) ]


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on June 08, 2012, 12:03:51 PM
Sorry if I sounded brusque. The lingua franca concept of language adoption has been hugely popular with anti-migrationists, as it seems to them to remove the need for migration to explain how a language could travel thousands of miles. Of course there is a genuine phenomenon behind all the speculation. The use of a lingua franca in trade and diplomacy is well known and not disputed. Unfortunately the idea can be misused. If you see suggestions of a language originating as a trade language, you know that those putting this forward are not linguists and know nothing about linguistics.

   


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on June 08, 2012, 12:12:18 PM
I thought that when mentioning a (specific set of children such as Centum-satem) isogloss represents the fact the discussion is of commonality which both apply to the parent language, and that an isogloss is the geographical boundary of a certain linguistic feature. So I was alluding to the earlier parent language.

I don't follow. The parent language was PIE. Initially it was neither centum nor satem, as can be seen from the Anatolian branch. Then the homeland turned centum. During this period various migrations took place (including one to the east which eventually produced Tocharian.) Because all these migrations left the homeland when it was centum, the resulting families such as Tocharian and Celtic were centum. Then the hard initial k softened, turning the remaining PIE-speakers satem. It seems that there was a dialect continuum with pre-Proto-Balto-Slavic at one end (probably in the Middle Dnieper) and pre-Proto-Indo-Iranian at the other (almost certainly in the Andronovo Culture), before the final break-up of PIE.     


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Mark Jost on June 08, 2012, 12:18:54 PM
It seems to me that the Indo-European languages did not form just by the spontaneous internal development but on geographical interaction other nearby language groups expanding into a regional common language which, by this effect, helped create many isoglosses.

Now here is the Blog from the same guy who co-wrote the paper mentioned in a previous post. I have NO horse in this race so I am just absorbing the information provided to make my own understanding and ignoring the War/domination' suggestions, but which R1b could have just by internal growth.

http://jandacek.com/novel_views.html



Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on June 08, 2012, 12:34:30 PM
@ Mark Jost

Languages tend to form from previous languages of course. In most cases we can see splitting from a common ancestor as the chief process at work, but borrowing from languages in contact is very common. In a few cases the interaction between two languages in contact is so strong as to create a synthesis between them, which results in a Creole language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creole_language).

There is no evidence at all to suggest that PIE is a creole. It is internally consistent. However there is evidence of language contact, particularly with Proto-Uralic. Some of the similarities there are fundamental enough to encourage some linguists to argue for a common ancestor. That is not impossible. Such a common ancestor might have been spoken in Central Asia.

However this really isn't all that important in looking at the splitting of PIE itself into separate IE languages.



Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Mark Jost on June 08, 2012, 12:35:00 PM
I thought that when mentioning a (specific set of children such as Centum-satem) isogloss represents the fact the discussion is of commonality which both apply to the parent language, and that an isogloss is the geographical boundary of a certain linguistic feature. So I was alluding to the earlier parent language.

I don't follow. The parent language was PIE. Initially it was neither centum nor satem, as can be seen from the Anatolian branch. Then the homeland turned centum. During this period various migrations took place (including one to the east which eventually produced Tocharian.) Because all these migrations left the homeland when it was centum, the resulting families such as Tocharian and Celtic were centum. Then the hard initial k softened, turning the remaining PIE-speakers satem. It seems that there was a dialect continuum with pre-Proto-Balto-Slavic at one end (probably in the Middle Dnieper) and pre-Proto-Indo-Iranian at the other (almost certainly in the Andronovo Culture), before the final break-up of PIE.     


I am not suggesting Trade first created PIE but it surely had play a roll in its growth.

In the link you provided, 'The satem languages share some innovations in common (particularly, the ruki sound law), while the centum languages have no common innovations, and in fact include the two groups that split off the earliest  ...  while "centumization" was actually a set of unrelated changes occurring independently in multiple language groups."

Words travel, a new listener my hear a new word a few time but then add it to their language base but with a slight change from the original pronunciation heard from a far away visitor causing prominent leap frog change effect.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on June 08, 2012, 12:38:20 PM

..  while "centumization" was actually a set of unrelated changes occurring independently in multiple language groups."


Oh not more rubbish in Wikipedia! I posted that link in good faith.  You are keeping me busy.  :)


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on June 08, 2012, 01:01:43 PM
Words travel, a new listener my hear a new word a few time but then add it to their language base but with a slight change from the original pronunciation heard from a far away visitor causing prominent leap frog change effect.

Certainly new words can be borrowed and may be pronounced oddly by their new speakers, but that is not what causes something like the centum-satem isogloss. It does not affect just one word. It is a consistent sound change throughout the language. Think of it more as a dialect or an accent - a way of speaking. Such a change might come about through language contact, perhaps the absorption of a number of non native speakers, who speak the language with an accent derived from their native tongue. But these changes can occur for no apparent reason.    

We can certainly see a lot of evidence of contact between Andronovo and the BMAC, which seems to have resulted in the Indo-Iranian branch acquiring a lot of new vocabulary, so that is one possible language contact that might have caused some sound shifts in the PIE rump.  


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Mark Jost on June 08, 2012, 01:30:16 PM

..  while "centumization" was actually a set of unrelated changes occurring independently in multiple language groups."


Oh not more rubbish in Wikipedia! I posted that link in good faith.  You are keeping me busy.  :)
I check Wiki historical edits and this add text has stood untouched for over a year and a half.

This was edited by User:Benwing on 23:57, 10 December 2010
Who is a graduate student in Linguistics at the University of Texas, Austin, focusing on computational linguistics and natural language processing. Who says "Much of my Wikipedia work in the past has been on topics relevant to historical linguistics and ancient languages of various sorts"

He has also posted in the Proto-Indo-European language: wrote section on verbs, much other work.

Either no other Linguistics Master has the chops to dispute or no other Linguistics expert reads Wikipedia.



Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: razyn on June 08, 2012, 02:33:39 PM
UT Austin used to have some of the heavy hitters in that field, on its faculty.  I was there 30 years ago, so my info isn't current, but I'd think that's still one of the better schools for linguistics.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on June 08, 2012, 03:22:01 PM
Folks - never mind who wrote it. Does it make sense to you? Really? Think about this.

I meanwhile will attempt to dig out something recent from a linguist on this and supply that reference to Wikipedia.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on June 08, 2012, 03:28:00 PM
OK - K Shields,  A New Look at the Centum/Satem Isogloss, Zeitschrift für vergleichende Sprachforschun (http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/40849463?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21100840686101) (1981) points out the problem with the old idea that this marks a western/eastern division of PIE before the daughter branches broke away.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on June 08, 2012, 03:37:12 PM
Carlos Quiles, Fernando López-Menchero, A Grammar of Modern Indo-European, 3rd edn. (2011)  is probably the best bet for a modern, easily available source. Page 21 lays out the linguistic evidence for the sequence from centum to satem. You can read it online.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: intrestedinhistory on June 09, 2012, 01:25:32 PM
Carlos Quiles, Fernando López-Menchero, A Grammar of Modern Indo-European, 3rd edn. (2011)  is probably the best bet for a modern, easily available source. Page 21 lays out the linguistic evidence for the sequence from centum to satem. You can read it online.


Is there any truth to the theory that Balto-Slavic is not completely Satemized and that Satemization probably rose near the Easern fringes of Yamn explaining why Indo-Iranian is considered fully Satemized?


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: intrestedinhistory on June 09, 2012, 01:27:10 PM
OK - K Shields,  A New Look at the Centum/Satem Isogloss, Zeitschrift für vergleichende Sprachforschun (http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/40849463?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21100840686101) (1981) points out the problem with the old idea that this marks a western/eastern division of PIE before the daughter branches broke away.

That makes sense. Balto-Slavic is still close to Germanic and Celtic than Indo-Iranian.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: intrestedinhistory on June 09, 2012, 01:28:51 PM
Words travel, a new listener my hear a new word a few time but then add it to their language base but with a slight change from the original pronunciation heard from a far away visitor causing prominent leap frog change effect.

Certainly new words can be borrowed and may be pronounced oddly by their new speakers, but that is not what causes something like the centum-satem isogloss. It does not affect just one word. It is a consistent sound change throughout the language. Think of it more as a dialect or an accent - a way of speaking. Such a change might come about through language contact, perhaps the absorption of a number of non native speakers, who speak the language with an accent derived from their native tongue. But these changes can occur for no apparent reason.    

We can certainly see a lot of evidence of contact between Andronovo and the BMAC, which seems to have resulted in the Indo-Iranian branch acquiring a lot of new vocabulary, so that is one possible language contact that might have caused some sound shifts in the PIE rump.  

Wat do you think the BMAC language was? I have heard theories of connections to the IVC, Elamtie, NE Caucasian languages and Afro-Asiatic/Semitic.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: intrestedinhistory on June 09, 2012, 01:41:28 PM
The same concept can be considered for Centum-satem isogloss of PIE where traders, ect used simplified syllable and sound structure and a simplified grammar as compared to a primary parent language?

The centum-satem isogloss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum-satem_isogloss) has nothing to do with simplification. It is a straightforward sound change like many others that constantly occur. It just happens to have attracted a lot more attention than many others because at one time it seemed to divide IE languages geographically into eastern and western. Once it was recognised that Tocharian was centum, that idea had to be given up. The division is not geographical but chronological. The isogloss occurred after the progenitors of many branches of the IE tree had left the homeland, leaving only the rump in which the sound change occurred. That rump eventually broke up into the Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian groups.    


I thought that when mentioning a (specific set of children such as Centum-satem) isogloss represents the fact the discussion is of commonality which both apply to the parent language, and that an isogloss is the geographical boundary of a certain linguistic feature. So I was alluding to the earlier parent language.

I don't follow. The parent language was PIE. Initially it was neither centum nor satem, as can be seen from the Anatolian branch. Then the homeland turned centum. During this period various migrations took place (including one to the east which eventually produced Tocharian.) Because all these migrations left the homeland when it was centum, the resulting families such as Tocharian and Celtic were centum. Then the hard initial k softened, turning the remaining PIE-speakers satem. It seems that there was a dialect continuum with pre-Proto-Balto-Slavic at one end (probably in the Middle Dnieper) and pre-Proto-Indo-Iranian at the other (almost certainly in the Andronovo Culture), before the final break-up of PIE.     

How does that fit with genetics? R1a-M458+ is recent but the majority of Balts and Slavs are R1a-Z280+/R1a-Z283+. The majority of Indo-Iranian R1a is R1a-Z93+, L342.2, L567+ I believe.

Would the R1a at the point this continuum or ancestor of Bat lo-Slavic and Indo-Iranian existed have been mostly Z645+? There are trace amounts of Z280+/Z283+ in Central Asia so there is no concrete answer.


@ Mark Jost

Languages tend to form from previous languages of course. In most cases we can see splitting from a common ancestor as the chief process at work, but borrowing from languages in contact is very common. In a few cases the interaction between two languages in contact is so strong as to create a synthesis between them, which results in a Creole language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creole_language).

There is no evidence at all to suggest that PIE is a creole. It is internally consistent. However there is evidence of language contact, particularly with Proto-Uralic. Some of the similarities there are fundamental enough to encourage some linguists to argue for a common ancestor. That is not impossible. Such a common ancestor might have been spoken in Central Asia.

However this really isn't all that important in looking at the splitting of PIE itself into separate IE languages.




Central Asia here is defined as?

Is a common ancestor accepted? And what ydna would those people been?


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on June 09, 2012, 01:47:03 PM
Is there any truth to the theory that Balto-Slavic is not completely Satemized

Yes.

Quote
and that Satemization probably rose near the Eastern fringes of Yamna explaining why Indo-Iranian is considered fully Satemized?

That certainly makes sense to me, and is the reason that I suggested language contact with the BMAC as a possible pressure, but we must be  cautious. The language of the BMAC does not survive and left no written records, so it is only educated deduction by linguists that this was the source of the non-IE vocabulary that entered Proto-Indo-Iranian and then even more entered Indic. As a non-linguist I am unsure whether there is any evidence in that vocabulary that would support a pressure to the satem sound-shift.  


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: intrestedinhistory on June 09, 2012, 01:57:04 PM
Is there any truth to the theory that Balto-Slavic is not completely Satemized

Yes.

Quote
and that Satemization probably rose near the Eastern fringes of Yamna explaining why Indo-Iranian is considered fully Satemized?

That certainly makes sense to me, and is the reason that I suggested language contact with the BMAC as a possible pressure, but we must be  cautious. The language of the BMAC does not survive and left no written records, so it is only educated deduction by linguists that this was the source of the non-IE vocabulary that entered Proto-Indo-Iranian and then even more entered Indic. As a non-linguist I am unsure whether there is any evidence in that vocabulary that would support a pressure to the satem sound-shift.  

The other possibility is that the non IE vocabulary stems from Elamites and the IVC languages and those two were related causing more influence in Indic as the IVC occupied a greater part of Indo-Aryan areas vs Elamites occupying a small area in Iran. Your scenario is of course more plausible as it also explains why the non IE vocabulary is found in Central Asian and Iranian plateau languages and doesn't rely on Elamite-Dravidian relationship that is questionable.

I suspect deep down satemization is an Indo-Iranian feature and Northeast Iranian speakers had something to do with Satemization being spread to Balto-Slavic.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on June 09, 2012, 01:58:27 PM
Central Asia here is defined as?

Is a common ancestor accepted?  And what ydna would those people been?

As I said - some linguists lean towards the idea of a common language. That means that others do not. They prefer the idea of linguistic borrowing.  

As for location, people spread northwards in the Mesolithic as the glaciers melted and herds of cold-adapted animals such as reindeer moved north. Y-DNA haplogroup N presents the appearance of having  spread northwards from South-East Asia. It appears among Uralic speakers.

It is pretty clear that Y-DNA R did not come from so far east, but could have encountered that movement somewhere in Central Asia. Personally I continue to favour the idea that some R at least "overwintered" around the southern Caspian. But who knows.




Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: intrestedinhistory on June 09, 2012, 02:13:56 PM
Central Asia here is defined as?

Is a common ancestor accepted?  And what ydna would those people been?

As I said - some linguists lean towards the idea of a common language. That means that others do not. They prefer the idea of linguistic borrowing.  

As for location, people spread northwards in the Mesolithic as the glaciers melted and herds of cold-adapted animals such as reindeer moved north. Y-DNA haplogroup N presents the appearance of having  spread northwards from South-East Asia. It appears among Uralic speakers.

It is pretty clear that Y-DNA R did not come from so far east, but could have encountered that movement somewhere in Central Asia. Personally I continue to favour the idea that some R at least "overwintered" around the southern Caspian. But who knows.




That South Caspian theory sounds right to me. It seems we are defining Central Asia as part of Asian areas of Russia as opposed to the Stans. I would love to see some ancient Central Asian DNA. The Keltiminar culture we talked about in addition to botai . I have heard theories of it being Proto Altaic as well in addition to being from South asia. In addition to the Uralic theory.

But any idea where the minute amounts of N in South Asia, central Asia and iran come from?

Recent Turkic movements, finno ugric admixture picked up by Indo-Iranians, ancient hunter gatherers or Uralic speaking cultures in Central Asia?

What about the small frequencies of I in Central Asia and Iran?

Does R1a inE astern Europe appear to be the native hunter gatherer lineage or a West Asian neolithic lineage that acquired Northern European admixture from the ydna I and N tribes there first?


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Jean M on June 09, 2012, 03:25:02 PM
Just a friendly reminder. This thread is supposed to be about the spread of R1b.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: acekon on June 09, 2012, 03:41:06 PM
@Interested in History

Maybe you should go and communicate with "Newtoboard" and Eurogenes founder along with  Iraqi R1a/linguist specialists and other Poles and "aR1ans" as they like to term themselves at "Forum Biodiversity".

As has been pointed out to you, this board is about R1b  


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: intrestedinhistory on June 09, 2012, 05:55:28 PM
@Interested in History

Maybe you should go and communicate with "Newtoboard" and Eurogenes founder along with  Iraqi R1a/linguist specialists and other Poles and "aR1ans" as they like to term themselves at "Forum Biodiversity".

As has been pointed out to you, this board is about R1b  

Maybe you should cut out your stupid trolling out and head on over to Eupedia or another similar board and talk about how European and Paleolithic R1b is as is the norm over there.


Title: Re: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 09, 2012, 09:45:09 PM
That South Caspian theory sounds right to me. It seems we are defining Central Asia as part of Asian areas of Russia as opposed to the Stans. I would love to see some ancient Central Asian DNA. The Keltiminar culture we talked about in addition to botai . I have heard theories of it being Proto Altaic as well in addition to being from South asia. In addition to the Uralic theory.

But any idea where the minute amounts of N in South Asia, central Asia and iran come from?

Recent Turkic movements, finno ugric admixture picked up by Indo-Iranians, ancient hunter gatherers or Uralic speaking cultures in Central Asia?

What about the small frequencies of I in Central Asia and Iran?

Does R1a inE astern Europe appear to be the native hunter gatherer lineage or a West Asian neolithic lineage that acquired Northern European admixture from the ydna I and N tribes there first?

A lot of speculations and a lot of questions.

No problem with that, but perhaps an R1b subclades forum is not the best for this.