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Title: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 03, 2012, 08:38:45 AM
Hot off the presses:

Lee et al. (2012)
Emerging Genetic Patterns of the European Neolithic: Perspectives From a Late Neolithic Bell Beaker Burial Site in Germany


Ancient DNA analyses of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany showed distinct mitochondrial haplotypes for six individuals,
which were classified under the haplogroups I1, K1, T1, U2, U5, and W5, and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b.

More to come when I read the whole thing.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 03, 2012, 08:41:17 AM
They also tested for U106 (S21), but both M269 samples were ancestral (negative).


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Arwunbee on May 03, 2012, 09:03:52 AM
They also tested for U106 (S21), but both M269 samples were ancestral (negative).
For one they weren't able to determine M269 status


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 03, 2012, 09:08:38 AM
The mt K1, which is also mine, with the mutations 16093C 16224C 16311C 16319A 73G 152C 195C 263G seems a K1b1a2. The two samples in Behar 2012b

EU714300 and EF177415 seem to belong both to Portuguese.

This would confirm the origin of Bell Beaker culture from Iberia.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: JeanL on May 03, 2012, 09:17:33 AM
From the paper:

Quote from: Lee et al.2012

In addition to mtDNA analyses, individuals were subjected to Y-SNP analysis, of which four were osteologically determined as males. Extracts from two male individuals, graves 5 and 8, yielded positive results for Y haplogroup classification. A consensus haplotype was determined from SNPs that were detected from both specimens (Table 3). Both males belong to Y haplogroup R1b, and one (grave 5) was further refined to haplogroup R1b1b2 by the mutation at M269. The SNP M269 failed to amplify for the extract from grave 8, thus it is not possible to infer whether or not the two individuals shared the same paternal lineage.

So it looks two males did not yield any haplogroup. The other male tested for R1b(xM269), while the other male tested for R1b1b2 or R1b-M269. I don't think they did any R-U106 testing, while the primer is shown on the supplementary file, they say nothing about it in the main text. It would be interesting to know whether that R1b-M269 is R1b-L11, or R1b-P312, or what else. Also very intriguing the lack of mt-DNA H is sample.  A high presence of mt-DNA Haplogroup I was found in ancient Nordic samples if I recall correctly.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 03, 2012, 09:18:00 AM
From Ian Logan spreadsheet

K1b1a1 16463
 4. EF177415(Portugal) Pereira             K1b1a1     18-DEC-2006    A73G T152C T195C A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C A750G        T1189C A1438G A1811G T2023C A2706G A3480G        A4769G                       G5913A C7028T T8260C A8860G G9055A C9371T T9698C G9962A A10289G A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G G11719A A11923G A12308G G12372A                         C14167T C14766T T14798C G15257A A15326G C15381T C15946T T16093C         T16224C T16311C A16318T G16319A A16463G T16519C
 5. EU239477 FTDNA                         K1b1a1     30-OCT-2007    A73G T152C       A263G 309.1C        315.1C A750G        T1189C A1438G A1811G        A2706G A3480G G3834A A4769G A4775G A5298G         G5913A C7028T        A8860G G9055A        T9698C G9962A A10289G A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G G11719A A11923G A12308G G12372A T13020G         C13967T C14167T C14766T T14798C G15257A A15326G         C15946T                 T16224C T16311C         G16319A A16463G T16519C
 6. EU714300 FTDNA                         K1b1a1     20-MAY-2008    A73G T152C T195C A263G 309.1C        315.1C A750G        T1189C A1438G A1811G        A2706G A3480G        A4769G               5899.1C G5913A C7028T T8260C A8860G G9055A C9371T T9698C G9962A A10289G A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G G11719A A11923G A12308G G12372A                         C14167T C14766T T14798C G15257A A15326G C15381T C15946T T16093C         T16224C T16311C A16318T G16319A A16463G T16519C
 7. GU361772 FTDNA                         K1b1a1     10-JAN-2010    A73G T152C       A263G               315.1C A750G        T1189C A1438G A1811G        A2706G A3480G G3834A A4769G A4775G                G5913A C7028T        A8860G G9055A        T9698C G9962A A10289G A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G G11719A A11923G A12308G G12372A                 C13967T C14167T C14766T T14798C G15257A A15326G         C15946T         G16129A T16224C T16311C         G16319A A16463G T16519C
 8. GU797785 FTDNA                         K1b1a1     22-FEB-2010    A73G T152C       A263G 309.1C        315.1C A750G A1041G T1189C A1438G A1811G        A2706G A3480G        A4769G                       G5913A C7028T        A8860G G9055A        T9698C G9962A A10289G A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G G11719A A11923G A12308G G12372A         T13602C C13967T C14167T C14766T T14798C G15257A A15326G         C15946T T16093C         T16224C T16311C         G16319A A16463G T16519C



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Arwunbee on May 03, 2012, 09:19:41 AM
No STRS in this study.  They did test for U106 but both R1b samples were negative for it.  P312/S116 wasn't tested...

Grave 5: ydna R1b1b2 U106-, mtdna I1, 35-50yo, no grave goods, bone age n.d.
Grave 8: ydna R1b^, mtdna K1, 21-26yo, cup & flake grave goods, bones 2678-2547 BC  

^unable to obtain M269 result

Only three of the bodies had a radiocarbon age, latest given was 2511 BC.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: NealtheRed on May 03, 2012, 10:08:55 AM
Hot off the presses:

Lee et al. (2012)
Emerging Genetic Patterns of the European Neolithic: Perspectives From a Late Neolithic Bell Beaker Burial Site in Germany


Ancient DNA analyses of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany showed distinct mitochondrial haplotypes for six individuals,
which were classified under the haplogroups I1, K1, T1, U2, U5, and W5, and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b.

More to come when I read the whole thing.

Wow! Great stuff! I am very happy to see something concrete.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Heber on May 03, 2012, 11:21:21 AM
This appears to confirm that Bell Beakers were R1b. It is part of the growing book of evidence of a Bell Beaker, Celtic story.

"The transition from hunting and gathering to agriculture in Europe is associated with demographic changes that may have shifted the human gene pool of the region as a result of an influx of Neolithic farmers from the Near East. However, the genetic composition of populations after the earliest Neolithic, when a diverse mosaic of societies that had been fully engaged in agriculture for some time appeared in central Europe, is poorly known. At this period during the Late Neolithic (ca. 2,800–2,000 BC), regionally distinctive burial patterns associated with two different cultural groups emerge, Bell Beaker and Corded Ware, and may reflect differences in how these societies were organized. Ancient DNA analyses of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany showed distinct mitochondrial haplotypes for six individuals, which were classified under the haplogroups I1, K1, T1, U2, U5, and W5, and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b. In contrast to other Late Neolithic societies in Europe emphasizing maintenance of biological relatedness in mortuary contexts, the diversity of maternal haplotypes evident at Kromsdorf suggests that burial practices of Bell Beaker communities operated outside of social norms based on shared maternal lineages. Furthermore, our data, along with those from previous studies, indicate that modern U5-lineages may have received little, if any, contribution from the Mesolithic or Neolithic mitochondrial gene pool. Am J Phys Anthropol 2012. "


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 03, 2012, 11:53:42 AM
If someone has some doubt about the origin of W5
16223T 16292T 16362C 73G 189G 194T 195C 204C 207A 263G
and 7028T 12705T 14766T 14798T
 look at here:

W5 6528 15775
103. EU744586 FTDNA                        W5         03-JUN-2008    57.1C 60.1T T65- G71- A73G A189G C194T T195C T204C G207A A263G 315.1C T334C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A A8860G G8994A T9909C C11674T G11696A G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C C16223T C16292T T16519C   
              W5a 10097 16362
104. EF657509 mtDNA35(Europe) Herrnstadt   W5a        14-JUL-2007                                                                             G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G        A3505G        A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A A8860G G8994A A10097G         G10373A C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T         C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C A15924G
105. GU726895 FTDNA                        W5a        22-FEB-2010    A73G C150T A189G C194T T195C T204C G207A A263G        315.1C             G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G G3337A A3505G        A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A A8860G G8994A A10097G T10166C         C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T         C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C                 C16223T C16292T T16362C T16519C
106. GU817015(German) FTDNA                W5a        03-MAR-2010    A73G C150T A189G       T195C T204C G207A A263G        315.1C             G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G        A3505G        A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A A8860G G8994A A10097G                 C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T         C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C                 C16223T C16292T T16362C T16519C
107. JF419335(Irish) FTDNA                 W5a        05-MAR-2011    A73G C150T A189G       T195C T204C G207A A263G 309.1C 315.1C C522- A523- G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G        A3505G T3644C A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A A8860G G8994A A10097G                 C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C13044T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C         A16177R C16223T C16292T T16362C T16519C
                W5a1 10410
108. EF657689 mtDNA511(Europe) Herrnstadt  W5a1       14-JUL-2007                                                                 G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G C3963T A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A        A8860G G8994A A10097G T10410C A11641G C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C
109. JN583886(Eire) FTDNA                  W5a1       23-AUG-2011    A73G A189G C194T T195C T196C T204C G207A A263G 315.1C 573.1C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2356G A2706G A3505G A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A G8292A A8860G G8994A A10097G T10410C         C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C C16150T C16223T C16292T T16362C T16519C
                  W5a1a 4363
110. EF652811(England) FTDNA               W5a1a      17-JUN-2007    A73G A189G C194T T195C T204C G207A A263G 309.1C 315.1C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G T4363C A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A A8860G G8994A A10097G T10410C C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C         T16124C C16223T C16292T T16362C T16519C   
111. GU646872(Irish) FTDNA                 W5a1a      22-FEB-2010    A73G A189G C194T T195C       G207A A263G 309.1C 315.1C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G T4363C A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A A8860G G8994A A10097G T10410C C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C                 C16223T C16292T T16362C T16519C
112. JF436973(Flemish) FTDNA               W5a1a      20-MAR-2011    A73G A189G C194T T195C T204C G207A A263G 309.1C 315.1C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G T4363C A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A A8860G G8994A A10097G T10410C C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C T16093C         C16223T C16292T T16362C T16519C
                    W5a1a1 9275
113. EU135972 FTDNA                        W5a1a1     12-SEP-2007    A73G A189G C194T T195C T204C G207A A263G 309.1C        315.1C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G T4363C A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A        A8860G G8994A A9275G A10097G T10410C T10742C C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C G16129A T16189C C16223T C16292T         T16362C T16519C   
114. HM125971(German) FTDNA                W5a1a1     04-MAY-2010    A73G A189G C194T T195M T204C G207A A263G               315.1C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G T4363C A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A G8572A A8860G G8994A A9275G A10097G T10410C         C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C                 C16223T C16292T T16311C T16362C T16519C
115. JF431251(England)FTDNA                W5a1a1     20-MAR-2011    A73G A189G C194T T195C T204C G207A A263G 309.1C        315.1C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G T4363C A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A        A8860G G8994A A9275G A10097G T10410C         C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C                 C16223T C16292T         T16362C T16519C
                      W5a1a1a 57 60.1T 139
116. GU828018(England) FTDNA               W5a1a1a    03-MAR-2010    T57C T59C 60.1T A73G T139C A189G C194T T195C T204C G207A A263G 309.1C        315.1C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G T4363C A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A A8860G G8994A A9275G A10097G T10410C C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C C16223T C16292T T16362C T16519C
(Equivalent mutations as given by FTDNA                              56.1C T58C      A73G etc.)
117. HM057816 FTDNA                        W5a1a1a    13-APR-2010    T57C      60.1T A73G T139C A189G C194T T195C T204C G207A A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G T4363C A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A A8860G G8994A A9275G A10097G T10410C C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C C16223T C16292T T16362C T16519C
(Equivalent mutations as given by FTDNA                              56.1C           A73G etc.)
           



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: A_Wode on May 03, 2012, 12:01:45 PM
Is the other male xM269 in reality, or is this just decay on the sample? Any experts on this topic?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 03, 2012, 12:36:09 PM
Haplogroup I1 is actually I1a1:
16129A 16172C 16223T 16311C 16391A 73G 199C 203A 204C 250C 263G
plus 7028T 8251A 12705T 14766T

On Behar 2012b the two reference FGS are FJ460452 from Tunisia and EF177414 from Portugal. Then also this haplogroup, thought from Asia, is probably more recently from Portugal.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 03, 2012, 12:40:27 PM
Is the other male xM269 in reality, or is this just decay on the sample? Any experts on this topic?
It is certainly R1b, tested M343+. The other SNPs failed, and it could be any subclades.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 03, 2012, 12:54:27 PM
Look at where are living now all the descendants of this person:

I1a1a 455.1d! 9053
 25. AY339502(Finland) Moilanen            I1a1  10-OCT-2007    A73G T199C G203A T204C T250C A263G             309.1C 315.1C G322A 573.1C 573.2C 573.3C 573.4C A750G        A1438G G1719A A2706G        C3990T A4529T A4769G        G6734A C7028T G8251A G8616T A8860G G9053A        G9947A T10034C T10238C A10398G T10915C G11719A G12501A C12705T A13780G C14766T G15043A A15326G         A15924G G16129A T16172C C16223T T16311C G16391A T16519C
 26. AY339503.2(Finland) Moilanen          I1a1  10-OCT-2007    A73G T199C G203A T204C T250C A263G             309.1C              573.1C 573.2C 573.3C 573.4C A750G        A1438G G1719A A2706G A3447G C3990T A4529T A4769G        G6734A C7028T G8251A G8616T A8860G G9053A        G9947A T10034C T10238C A10398G T10915C G11719A G12501A C12705T A13780G C14766T G15043A A15326G         A15924G G16129A T16172C C16223T T16311C G16391A T16519C
 27. AY339504.2(Finland) Moilanen          I1a1  10-OCT-2007    A73G T199C G203A T204C T250C A263G       C309-                     573.1C 573.2C 573.3C 573.4C A750G        A1438G G1719A A2706G A3447G C3990T A4529T A4769G        G6734A C7028T G8251A G8616T A8860G G9053A        G9947A T10034C T10238C A10398G T10915C G11719A G12501A C12705T A13780G C14766T G15043A A15326G         A15924G G16129A T16172C C16223T T16311C G16391A T16519C
 28. AY339505(Finland) Moilanen            I1a1  10-OCT-2007    A73G T199C G203A T204C T250C A263G             309.1C              573.1C 573.2C 573.3C 573.4C A750G        A1438G G1719A A2706G A3447G C3990T A4529T A4769G C5213T G6734A C7028T G8251A G8616T A8860G G9053A        G9947A T10034C T10238C A10398G T10915C G11719A G12501A C12705T A13780G C14766T G15043A A15326G         A15924G G16129A T16172C C16223T T16311C G16391A T16519C
 29. AY339506.2(Finland) Moilanen          I1a1  10-OCT-2007    A73G T199C G203A T204C T250C A263G                                 573.1C 573.2C 573.3C 573.4C A750G        A1438G G1719A A2706G A3447G C3990T A4529T A4769G        G6734A C7028T G8251A G8616T A8860G G9053A        G9947A T10034C T10238C A10398G T10915C G11719A G12501A C12705T A13780G C14766T G15043A A15326G C15547T A15924G G16129A T16172C C16223T T16311C G16391A T16519C
 30. AY339507.2(Finland) Moilanen          I1a1  10-OCT-2007    A73G T199C G203A T204C T250C A263G C295T       309.1C              573.1C 573.2C 573.3C 573.4C A750G C1342T A1438G G1719A A2706G A3447G C3990T A4529T A4769G        G6734A C7028T G8251A G8616T A8860G G9053A        G9947A T10034C T10238C A10398G T10915C G11719A G12501A C12705T A13780G C14766T G15043A A15326G         A15924G G16129A T16172C C16223T T16311C G16391A T16519C
 31. AY339508.2(Finland) Moilanen          I1a1  10-OCT-2007    A73G T199C G203A T204C T250C A263G             309.1C              573.1C 573.2C 573.3C 573.4C A750G C1342T A1438G G1719A A2706G A3447G C3990T A4529T A4769G        G6734A C7028T G8251A G8616T A8860G G9053A        G9947A T10034C T10238C A10398G T10915C G11719A G12501A C12705T A13780G C14766T G15043A A15326G         A15924G G16129A T16172C C16223T T16311C G16391A T16519C
 32. AY339509.2(Finland) Moilanen          I1a1  10-OCT-2007    A73G T199C G203A T204C T250C A263G             309.1C              573.1C 573.2C 573.3C 573.4C A750G C1342T A1438G G1719A A2706G A3447G C3990T A4529T A4769G        G6734A C7028T G8251A G8616T A8860G G9053A A9531G G9947A T10034C T10238C A10398G T10915C G11719A G12501A C12705T A13780G C14766T G15043A A15326G         A15924G G16129A T16172C C16223T T16311C G16391A T16519C
           



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 03, 2012, 12:54:40 PM
that is a champagne moment


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 03, 2012, 01:04:43 PM
Many thanks, I have drunk much absinth so far. Prosit to Richard Rocca and to you all!


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: A_Wode on May 03, 2012, 01:07:28 PM
It's a great finding, but I would be extremely perturbed if an R1b didn't turn up anywhere in the Beaker horizon especially when Iberia is such a focal point.

The paper seems to stress that there is no strong selection process when choosing female mates, where as in previous Neolithic family structures, I think the same line of mtDNA J1 appeared in something like 12 different women. All 6 samples are different, but at least 4 of the 6 look very North-Eurasian in origin - probably carrying a lot of DNA that might be hunter-gatherer. (W5, I1a1, U5, U2)  

What are other people's thoughts on this?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 03, 2012, 01:14:34 PM
Is the other male xM269 in reality, or is this just decay on the sample? Any experts on this topic?

"The SNP M269 failed to amplify for the extract from grave 8, thus it is not possible to infer whether or not the two individuals shared the same paternal lineage." = They couldn't get copies of the sequence. See Polymerase chain reaction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymerase_chain_reaction).

In other words, the other male could well have been M269, but they couldn't prove it.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 03, 2012, 01:19:06 PM
It's a great finding, but I would be extremely perturbed if an R1b didn't turn up anywhere in the Beaker horizon especially when Iberia is such a focal point.

The paper seems to stress that there is no strong selection process when choosing female mates, where as in previous Neolithic family structures, I think the same line of mtDNA J1 appeared in something like 12 different women. All 6 samples are different, but at least 4 of the 6 look very North-Eurasian in origin - probably carrying a lot of DNA that might be hunter-gatherer. (W5, I1a1, U5, U2)  

What are other people's thoughts on this?
I’ll give a glance at U2 too, but I remember to you all that some years ago I found on SMGF and put on Mitosearch an U2d from Italy with many mutations. The great Indian geneticist Palanichamy wrote to me asking that sample to test it by an FGS. Unfortunately, as you know, the SMGF samples are anonymous and I wasn’t able to give it to him. Anyway U2 was found in Russia at Kostenky more than 30 years ago if I remember well.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 03, 2012, 01:27:41 PM
All 6 samples are different, but at least 4 of the 6 look very North-Eurasian in origin - probably carrying a lot of DNA that might be hunter-gatherer. (W5, I1a1, U5, U2)  

What are other people's thoughts on this?

What they are saying about the U5 is extremely interesting. They have looked at Mesolithic and Neolithic U5 previously found in Europe and concluded

Quote
that these lineages did not continue into the present. Based on this haplotype distribution, due to genetic drift or some demographic event modern U5 haplotypes do not appear to have had significant contributions from the Mesolithic/Neolithic gene pool. At least for this haplogroup, it appears there is no simple story of continuity from the Neolithic to the present and that central Europe may have experienced complex demographic events since the Neolithic involving groups that harbored distinctive maternal lineages  

I'm not all that surprised, as I guessed that much of present U5 arrived with the Indo-Europeans, but I have yet to take in the data on where they got their modern samples. I would expect continuity in certain areas of Europe, notably the eastern fringe.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 03, 2012, 01:35:22 PM
All 6 samples are different, but at least 4 of the 6 look very North-Eurasian in origin - probably carrying a lot of DNA that might be hunter-gatherer. (W5, I1a1, U5, U2)  

What are other people's thoughts on this?

What they are saying about the U5 is extremely interesting. They have looked at Mesolithic and Neolithic U5 previously found in Europe and concluded

Quote
that these lineages did not continue into the present. Based on this haplotype distribution, due to genetic drift or some demographic event modern U5 haplotypes do not appear to have had significant contributions from the Mesolithic/Neolithic gene pool. At least for this haplogroup, it appears there is no simple story of continuity from the Neolithic to the present and that central Europe may have experienced complex demographic events since the Neolithic involving groups that harbored distinctive maternal lineages  

I'm not all that surprised, as I guessed that much of present U5 arrived with the Indo-Europeans, but I have yet to take in the data on where they got their modern samples. I would expect continuity in certain areas of Europe, notably the eastern fringe.

Do you think this could be interpreted as male lineages who marry out as part of their outward looking and networking social system.  Marrying beyond your locality in order to network, use marriage to find alliances and indeed to find someone of the same social status (if you are top of the pile locally) all makes sense to me.  Marrying within ones community as non-beaker Neolithic people may have done. is a more inward looking system and perhaps less class orientated. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 03, 2012, 01:36:35 PM
Is the other male xM269 in reality, or is this just decay on the sample? Any experts on this topic?

"The SNP M269 failed to amplify for the extract from grave 8, thus it is not possible to infer whether or not the two individuals shared the same paternal lineage." = They couldn't get copies of the sequence. See Polymerase chain reaction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymerase_chain_reaction).

In other words, the other male could well have been M269, but they couldn't prove it.

Odds are they were and indeed they were close relations of each other if its a patrilocal, patrilineal society.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 03, 2012, 01:46:34 PM
16129C 16182C 16183C 16189C 16362C 73G 152C 217C 263G
plus 7028T 10873C 14766T
Unfortunately they have tested only from 15,995 to 16,429 and from 00034 to 00287.
This haplogroup could be U2e1’2’3, not documented so far. It could be a U2e1 with  C340T or some subclade…but it seems to me having found in the past a similar haplotype in Italy with 16182C and 16183C, elsewhere deleted. If  I find it, I’ll post it soon.

P.S. I had to add: 16051G and 16192C.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 03, 2012, 01:53:13 PM
Odds are they were and indeed they were close relations of each other if its a patrilocal, patrilineal society.

I was thinking the same.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 03, 2012, 01:59:13 PM
16129C 16182C 16183C 16189C 16362C 73G 152C 217C 263G
plus 7028T 10873C 14766T
Unfortunately they have tested only from 15,995 to 16,429 and from 00034 to 00287.
This haplogroup could be U2e1’2’3, not documented so far. It could be a U2e1 with  C340T or some subclade…but it seems to me having found in the past a similar haplotype in Italy with 16182C and 16183C, elsewhere deleted. If  I find it, I’ll post it soon.

No Italians, but many Central Europeans get this hapolotype, with other mutations. I'd say that is typically European from many thousands of years.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 03, 2012, 02:01:33 PM
Although this was long considered a decent option and has grown from strength to strength with every bit of new ancient DNA evidence, isoptope analysis etc, its still incredibly exciting.  It certainly provides a 'terminus ante quem' date for R1b in Europe of c. 2500BC.  It is also interesting that R1b was this far east very early in the beaker culture in that area.  


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 03, 2012, 02:02:38 PM
Cant wait for Rich to see this.  I have emailed him a couple of times.  Has he been in touch?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 03, 2012, 02:18:51 PM
Do you think this could be interpreted as male lineages who marry out as part of their outward looking and networking social system.  Marrying beyond your locality in order to network, use marriage to find alliances and indeed to find someone of the same social status (if you are top of the pile locally) all makes sense to me. ..

Patrilocality has been argued on isotope evidence for Bell Beaker groups, and spouses from far distant Bell Beaker groups would be one means of spreading pottery styles. However the big question that arises from this paper is where the mtDNA haplogroups found at Kromsdorf had come from in the longer chronological perspective i.e. was it local or had it arrived from SE Europe with migrating family groups. 

mtDNA in Andronovo: K2b, U2e, U4, U5a1, T1, T4,  Z1

mtDNA at Kromsdorf: I1, K1, U2e, U5a1, T1a, W5a

mtDNA at Damsbo (Bell Beaker site in Denmark): U4, U5a2a?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 03, 2012, 02:21:02 PM
Cant wait for Rich to see this.  I have emailed him a couple of times.  Has he been in touch?

Not with me. The paper is in the Mini-Library though, so he has access to it. It is still the working day in the US. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 03, 2012, 02:46:46 PM
There is not much in the way of modern Y-DNA testing in the area around Kromsdorf. The closest I could find was Kayser et al. (2005) where Leipzig was R1b=43.1% and R1a=27.1%. Leipzig had the highest R1b frequency in eastern Germany.

The closest M269+ FTDNA sample I could to Kromsdorf was kit no. N59117, surname Vogelsberg, U152+L2*


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: secherbernard on May 03, 2012, 03:01:52 PM
A total of 10 skeletons belonging to eight graves (6 individual graves and 2 double graves) of a cemetery located at Kromsdorf in Germany, were tested. This cemetery is dated between 2600 and 2500 BC. These 10 skeletons belong to six men, three women and one individual whose sex has not been determined. Mitochondrial DNA has been successfully tested on six individuals. The results give six different haplogroups U2, W5, I1, K1, U5 and T1, indicating that these six individuals did not share maternal ancestors. On the other hand, haplogroups W5, I1, K1, U5 and T1 have been detected in ancient DNA tests on Neolithic or Mesolithic skeletons in Europe. Haplogroups K, T and W were detected in the skeletons of LBK culture in central Europe but also in Final Neolithic in Spain. The Haplogroup I was detected in the Final Neolithic in Germany and Spain. The haplogroup U is the group most frequently detected in the skeletons of Mesolithic. Thus we can conclude that the Bell Beaker female lineage are in Europe long before the third millennium BC and are inherited from previous cultures: Mesolithic for U and Neolithic for the others. The Y-DNA has been successfully tested on two individuals. The two results give the same haplogroup R1b. One has been tested specifically R1b-M269. Both are negative for the mutation U106. These results contrast sharply with the analysis of Y-DNA tests previously conducted on Neolithic skeletons: F* and G2a3 in LBK culture in Germany, G2a and E1b in cardial culture in Spain, G2a and I2a in Final Neolithic in southern France and Ötzi in Final Neolithic at the Austrian-Italian border is G2a2.
 
This first study on Bell Beaker DNA seems to show that this culture is characterized by the arrival of a new male population in sharp contrast with a genetic continuity in the female lineages.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 03, 2012, 03:29:54 PM
This first study on DNA Bell Beaker seems to show that it is characterized by the arrival of a new male population in sharp contrast with a genetic continuity in the female lineages.

It might seem like that at first glance, but the study looked very closely at mtDNA U5. It found that modern U5 does not descend from the Mesolithic and Neolithic U5 so far discovered in aDNA. Continuity does not appear.

It is highly likely that many European hunter-gatherer lineages died out in both the direct female and direct male lines. However in some places hunter-gatherers survived successfully because farmers were not in competition with them (the far north), or because they adopted farming or pastoralism (as on the riverine fringes of the Pontic-Caspian steppe). The hunter-gatherer lineages from the latter region burst upon the wider European scene in the Copper Age.

MtDNA U2 appears at Kostenki 14 [Markina Gora], Russia  in 30,000 BP. It has not appeared in any Mesolithic or Neolithic aDNA from Europe.

U2 today is scattered at low frequencies in populations from South and Western Asia, Europe and North Africa, with its oldest branches (U2a-c) in South Asia. That is a clue that people carrying U2 had spent a long time in the warm south before a group split off to travel north into Europe, where the mutation creating U2e probably occurred. U2e is mainly found in those of European descent. It seems likely that U2 moved north into what is now Russia in the first instance and that U2e was born somewhere in East Europe.  


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: A.D. on May 03, 2012, 03:35:52 PM
Could the tradition of dowries have been about that far back. It's supposed to be ancient in Ireland. Women from some distance bringing artifacts of value, both practical and prestigious,  into their new community could lead to coping. Fashion and keeping up with the Jones's.   Could explain why some things appear where there not really expected. I think it would be more visible amongst the Elite.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 03, 2012, 03:39:26 PM
@ A.D.

The idea is that pottery was mainly made by women in Bell Beaker times. Pottery was produced on a domestic scale until the potter's wheel turned it into an industry. So women would carry their knowledge with them into marriage, rather than a lot of heavy pots. But who knows?    


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: A.D. on May 03, 2012, 03:46:22 PM
JeanM I've often wondered if Sea fishing populations could contain any Mesolithic DNA as it tended to be a family orientated and was not in competition with farmers. I think it's possible it took on a greater role after the flooding of Doggerland. There seem to be evidence of Hunter/gatherers being more @settled than was previously thought.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 03, 2012, 03:49:05 PM
@ A.D.

That is exactly my thinking (except that I doubt if Doggerland had anything to do with it.) We have never given up fishing. The highest levels of U5 in Europe today are around the Baltic.  


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: A.D. on May 03, 2012, 03:55:14 PM
My thinking on Doggerland is that maybe knowledge of the old landscape had been passed down through generations that in time became the deeps and shallows essential info for fishermen.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 03, 2012, 04:03:00 PM
@ A.D.

You have a lot more confidence than I have in folk memory! :) It seldom seems to get passed on for more than three or four generations.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: razyn on May 03, 2012, 05:31:15 PM
Could the tradition of dowries have been about that far back. It's supposed to be ancient in Ireland. Women from some distance bringing artifacts of value, both practical and prestigious,  into their new community could lead to coping.

I guess the last word there should be copying?  Anyway, this comment (and Jean's response) put me in mind of the work of my grad school prof of cultural anthropology, the late Annette B. Weiner.  She was working on her well-received book, Women of Value, Men of Renown, when I was one of her students (in Austin, TX).  She authored a couple more studies in that vein, and taught at NYU for years.  I'm fairly sure that some of her work would be relevant to this problem.

As an aside, I've lately been reviewing the paper I wrote for her seminar, because it was about the multicultural kinship network of a former slave family in Texas -- and it probably deserves to be reexamined in the light of genetic genealogy (which wasn't an option, in 1977).


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: OConnor on May 03, 2012, 06:03:21 PM
Great News

Rich will be excited I'm sure.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 03, 2012, 06:40:55 PM
... Annette B. Weiner....  I'm fairly sure that some of her work would be relevant to this problem.

A good idea. The potter's wheel was invented so far back that we have no written evidence of gender roles in pottery-making before then in Europe. So we might well learn something from pre-potter's wheel societies elsewhere. In Kalabougou (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalabougou) (Mali ) the women make pottery, while the men are blacksmiths. The pottery-making is on an industrial scale i.e. for sale as well as domestic use, but they don't use a wheel.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 03, 2012, 06:46:19 PM
that is a champagne moment

I agree! WOW!

My apologies to the U106 guys, but I am kind of relieved about that U106- result for at least one of the bodies.

I think U106 might have been connected to Corded Ware rather than Beaker.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 03, 2012, 06:52:41 PM
Cant wait for Rich to see this.  I have emailed him a couple of times.  Has he been in touch?

Thanks, Alan. I just got home from work a little while ago and ate my dinner before coming up to the computer.

This news is HUGE!

My head is spinning. I haven't had a chance to read the report yet.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Arwunbee on May 03, 2012, 08:06:39 PM
that is a champagne moment

I agree! WOW!

My apologies to the U106 guys, but I am kind of relieved about that U106- result for at least one of the bodies.

I think U106 might have been connected to Corded Ware rather than Beaker.
Hahaha, us U106 guys are relieved as well.  Both bodies were U106-.  Not sure why they didn't test for P312 too.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 03, 2012, 08:09:48 PM
that is a champagne moment

I agree! WOW!

My apologies to the U106 guys, but I am kind of relieved about that U106- result for at least one of the bodies.

I think U106 might have been connected to Corded Ware rather than Beaker.
Hahaha, us U106 guys are relieved as well.  Both bodies were U106-.  Not sure why they didn't test for P312 too.

I'm not sure why they did it the way they did either. It's a shame, though, but at least we have more info than we usually get.

It would have been nice to have a haplotype or two, though.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 03, 2012, 08:11:41 PM
@Jean M

Is this development too late to make it into your book?

Anyway, it will look splendid as an entry on your ancient Eurasian dna web site. :-)


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: razyn on May 03, 2012, 08:43:32 PM
The way I read the supplementary info, they had primers (and tested the two male samples that had responded to the polymerase chain reaction) for thirteen specific, diagnostic SNPs -- of which the last five are in the R family: M207, M17, M343, S21, M269.  (The other eight were SRY10831.1, M168, M89, M9, M45, M231, M122, M242.)  That may seem a little on the shallow side, for a Deep Clade Test.  But, given the resources allocated for it (which I suspect were quite expensive), I think we did about as well as could reasonably be expected.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: A.D. on May 03, 2012, 08:44:52 PM
JeanM I think the 'folk memory' is a bit misleading. I'm talking about a very sophisticated  method of retaining 'history' and 'religion'. It would entail a lot more than memorizing tales the way you would from a book. I believe music, dance, symbols even the landscape were used to convey the information. Of course this was the property of the a skilled elite. What we are left with now is compilations made later and put into writing.      


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: JeanL on May 03, 2012, 09:25:19 PM

The highest levels of U5 in Europe today are around the Baltic. 


Here is the distribution of mt-DNA U5 in Basques and their neighbors from Table-S3 of the Martinez-Cruz et al(2012) study:

Bigorre BIG (n=44)

U5b 6.8%
U5a 2.27%

Bearn BEA (n=51)

U5b 19.61%
U5a 1.96%

Chalosse CHA (n=58)

U5b 15.51%
U5a 3.44%

Lapurdi/Nafarroa Beherea ZMX (n=56)

U5b 23.21%
U5a 0%


Nafarroa Beherea NLA (n=68)

U5b 7.35% (*Outlier, too low)
U5a 1.47%
 
Zuberoa SOU (n=62)

U5b 19.35%
U5a 1.47%

Roncal, Nafarroa  RON (n=55) Table S4

U5b 25.45%
U5a 5.45%

Central/Western Nafarroa  NCO (n=63) Table S4

U5b 12.70%
U5a 1.59%


North/Western Nafarroa  NNO (n=51) Table S4

U5b 21.57%
U5a 1.96

Guipuscoa GUI (n=57)

U5b 17.54%
U5a 1.75%

Southwestern Guipuscoa GSO (n=64)

U5b 14.06%
U5a 6.25%


Alava, ALA (n=55)

U5b 5.45%
U5a 5.45%


Bizkaia BBA (n=59)

U5b 8.47%
U5a 1.69%


La Rioja RIO (n=51)

U5b 5.88%
U5a 0%




Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: MHammers on May 03, 2012, 09:57:38 PM
Finally something older than the late bronze age!  Hopefully, there is more R1b aDNA on the way this year.

Here is a paper by Volker Heyd about the Beakers in Germany and Central Europe.  I don't know how Kromsdorf fits in, but he links south Germany with Moravian and Bohemian Bell Beaker.

http://www.bris.ac.uk/archanth/staff/heyd/Bell2.pdf


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 04, 2012, 12:14:58 AM
Here was the Italian U2e!

Salve Gioiello,

M.A.B.:
I am two off the Bell Beaker U2 results, at least if these results are accurate, and for the sites they tested. I am U2e.

The following are taken from Jean Manco's Ancient DNA site at
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml

These are the results in the table:16051G, 16092C, 16129C, 16182C, 16183C, 16189C, 16362C, 73G, 152C, 263G

I have all of the above, except 16182C. In addition, I have 217C in HVRII.

I don't know what it means yet. If any mtdna gurus read this (perhaps I should post on the mtdna thread as well) I'd appreciate any insight you could provide.

M.A.B.
M.A.B.:
If I am reading the new mtdna chart at phylotree.org correctly, the Bell Beaker specimen is U2e2. Is that correct? If it is correct, it might be important that I have a notation about a U2e2 in Jordan which is very old. I have to try to track down the source.


Maria, I just woke up and must prepared me for going to work. I'll write you this afternoon. I have written a lot about this in these last years, like Gioiello, Maliclavelli, Claire etc. I am going to win my war, bacause a war has been, with many banishments above all from Jews who didn't accept my theories about their origin. My theory of the Italian Refugium is that hg. R1b and many mt-s come from Italy. The Bell Beakers come from Portugal, but they discend from the agriculturalists who by sea colonized 7500 ya that region, taking a IE-Ligurian language, from which the Lusitanian and all the Celt languages.
Jean Manco has been one of my worst enemies, but I think she has had the lection she merited.

Gioiello


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Arch Y. on May 04, 2012, 12:46:59 AM
The mt K1, which is also mine, with the mutations 16093C 16224C 16311C 16319A 73G 152C 195C 263G seems a K1b1a2. The two samples in Behar 2012b

EU714300 and EF177415 seem to belong both to Portuguese.

This would confirm the origin of Bell Beaker culture from Iberia.

The origin of the Bell Beaker culture from Iberia finally proven by genetics will definitely add more credibility to Cunliffe's theory. This is getting interesting.

Arch


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Arch Y. on May 04, 2012, 12:57:42 AM
Hot off the presses:

Lee et al. (2012)
Emerging Genetic Patterns of the European Neolithic: Perspectives From a Late Neolithic Bell Beaker Burial Site in Germany


Ancient DNA analyses of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany showed distinct mitochondrial haplotypes for six individuals,
which were classified under the haplogroups I1, K1, T1, U2, U5, and W5, and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b.

More to come when I read the whole thing.

Excellent find! This is huge! Hopefully, we can get some Iberian samples in the very near future.

Arch


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Heber on May 04, 2012, 02:17:09 AM
If they are U106-, can we assume that they are probably P312+ or is that a step too far.

"The earliest form of Bell Beaker called the Maritime Bell Beaker probably originated in the vibrant copper-using communities of the Tagus estuary in Portugal around 2800 - 2700 BC and spread from there to many parts of western Europe.[2][7] An overview of all available sources from southern Germany concluded that the Bell Beaker Culture was a new and independent culture in that area, contemporary with the Corded Ware Culture.[8] This conclusion was supported by a review of radiocarbon dates for Bell Beaker across Europe, which showed that the earliest dates for Bell Beaker were 2900 BC in Iberia. This makes the style contemporary with Corded Ware, but beginning in a different region of Europe.[9] Bell Beaker has been suggested as a candidate for an early Indo-European culture, more specifically, an ancestral proto-Celtic."



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 04, 2012, 02:48:26 AM
Investigations in the Mediterranean and France recently questioned the nature of the phenomenon. Instead of being pictured as a fashion or a simple diffusion of objects and their use, the investigation of over 300 sites showed that human groups actually moved in a process that involved explorations, contacts, settlement, diffusions and acculturation/assimilation. Some elements show the influence from the north and east, and other elements reveal the south-east of France to be an important cross road on an important route of communication and exchange spreading north. A distinctive barbed wire element is thought to have migrated through central Italy first. The pattern of movements was diverse and complicated, along the Atlantic coast and the northern Mediterranean coast, and sometimes also far inland. The prominent central role of Portugal in the region and the quality of the pottery all across Europe are forwarded as arguments to a new interpretation that denies an ideological dimension.[17]


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 04, 2012, 03:38:21 AM
@Jean M

Is this development too late to make it into your book?

It will go into the book, never fear. Part of the reason for delay was hope of a few more aDNA papers.




Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: secherbernard on May 04, 2012, 03:47:04 AM
It might seem like that at first glance, but the study looked very closely at mtDNA U5. It found that modern U5 does not descend from the Mesolithic and Neolithic U5 so far discovered in aDNA. Continuity does not appear.
I spoke about genetic continuity between Neolithic and Bell Beaker, not between Neolithic and modern people. We must be cautious about the figures 2 and 3 because they take account only of HVR results and not coding region results. Nevertheless, in the figure 2, the K Beaker sample is at the tip of its branch just after mesolithic and neolithic samples, and the U5 Beaker samples is inserted between one mesolithic haplotype and one neolithic haplotype. These results seem to show genetic continuity. I agree about the U2 sample. U2 has not yet been discovered in mesolithic or neolithic samples in Europe, but it is only one sample out of 6.



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 04, 2012, 03:52:47 AM

The highest levels of U5 in Europe today are around the Baltic. 


Here is the distribution of mt-DNA U5 in Basques and their neighbors from Table-S3 of the Martinez-Cruz et al(2012) study:


My apologies. Should have noticed that.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 04, 2012, 04:05:10 AM
The origin of the Bell Beaker culture from Iberia finally proven by genetics ...

Links from DNA in Germany 2,600–2,500 BC to present-day people in Iberia do not prove an origin of the former from Iberia. Maliclavelli has that the wrong way around. Present-day people are descended from ancient people.

That does not mean that present-day people in Portugal are directly descended from those buried in Germany 2,600–2,500 BC either, though obviously they are related if they share a haplogroup. The problem is that we have no aDNA from Bell Beaker people in Portugal. If and when we get that, I would expect a mixture of mtDNA haplogroups similar to that in the two Bell Beaker sites which have so far yielded aDNA. As I pointed out above, there are similarities with the mtDNA from Andronovo too. But we'll have to wait and see.

I know that this paper is exciting, but let's not over-interpret. We have a long way to go yet. :)


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: polako on May 04, 2012, 04:05:51 AM
Awesome news!

So the R1b vs. R1a division in Europe is actually (Mediterranean) Bell Beaker vs. (Northeastern European) Corded Ware. Fantastic!

I assume the Bell Beakers eventually picked up Northeast European autosomal admixture from the Corded Ware folk by swapping women.

There was then a back migration, or indeed a series of back migrations, carrying North European influence, and R1b, back west and south. Hence, the fairly pure Oetzis with minimal Northern influence only survived on Sardinia.

Jean M, well done spotting the similarity between the Bell Beaker and Andronovo mtDNAs. As you know, Andronovo groups originated in modern Poland, so those mtDNAs in the Bell Beakers are probably courtesy of recently acquired Corded Ware women.

And no, there won't be any U106 in Corded Ware remains. Unless of course, we're talking about hybrid groups with heavy Bell Beaker admixture.

I can see some I2 in pure Corded Ware folk, but certainly no Mediterranean R1b.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 04, 2012, 04:15:17 AM
well done spotting the similarity between the Bell Beaker and Andronovo mtDNAs. As you know, Andronovo groups originated in modern Poland,

No I don't know that at all Polako. : ) You can scarcely be blamed for thinking that, since anti-migrationism has ruled archaeology for decades, and the standard view of Corded Ware has been that it sprang locally from the TRB, which sprang locally from hunter-gatherers. Now we have evidence both genetic and anthropological that the TRB actually was the result of farmers fleeing north from the Balkans as the climate changed c. 4000 BC. The Corded Ware people look completely different from them and more like hunter-gatherer types, which was one of the reasons people thought there was continuity from local hunter-gatherers right through to Corded Ware. Not so. The Corded Ware types were derived from Yamnaya and probably some earlier drift northwards from the steppe.

So I would expect a resemblance between Corded Ware, Bell Beaker and  Andronovo mtDNA haplogroups, because they were all from the same mixture of sources.





Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 04, 2012, 04:16:11 AM
M.A.B. writes privately to me: “These are the results in the table:16051G, 16092C, 16129C, 16182C, 16183C, 16189C, 16362C, 73G, 152C, 263G

I have all of the above, except 16182C. In addition, I have 217C in HVRII.”

Maria, your haplotype matches that of this Bell Beaker person except in 16182C. It would be interesting an FGS, if you haven’t done it yet. You could belong to the Italian ancestress of this Bell Beaker people from Portugal.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: polako on May 04, 2012, 04:26:28 AM
No I don't know that at all Polako. : ) You can scarcely be blamed for thinking that, since anti-migrationism has ruled archaeology for decades, and the standard view of Corded Ware has been that it sprang locally from the TRB, which sprang locally from hunter-gatherers. Now we have evidence both genetic and anthropological that the TRB actually was the result of farmers fleeing north from the Balkans as the climate changed c. 4000 BC. The Corded Ware people look completely different from them and more like hunter-gatherer types, which was one of the reasons people thought there was continuity from local hunter-gatherers right through to Corded Ware. Not so. The Corded Ware types were derived from Yamnaya and probably some earlier drift northwards from the steppe.

So I would expect a resemblance between Corded Ware, Bell Beaker and  Andronovo mtDNA haplogroups, because they were all from the same mixture of sources.

Jean, please don't ignore the totality of evidence, including the recent genome-wide results from the Gotland hunter-gatherers.

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/2241/skoalleles.png

You simply need to embrace the fact that the hunter-gatherers in what is now Poland became the Corded Ware folk, and then eventually Poles.

You're only delaying the inevitable.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 04, 2012, 04:38:33 AM
@ Polako

The Pitted Ware Culture appears to reflect the arrival of Uralic-speakers in Scandinavia. See The linguistic arguments: Uralic (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/language.shtml). It brought hunter-gathering back to Scandinavia after farming had arrived with the TRB. The anti-migrationist model meant that the conventional view for some time was that the Pitted Ware culture reflected farmers returning to hunter-gathering.

The recent study of the Gotland samples just added to what we knew already from aDNA mtDNA: the Pitted Ware people were no relation to the TRB people. The former do not reflect the latter going back to hunter-gathering.

Naturally you will find modern people in the Uralic-speaking areas and their close neighbours who show similarity to Pitted Ware types, just as you find Y-DNA N1c1 in those areas.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: polako on May 04, 2012, 04:59:58 AM
@ Polako

The Pitted Ware Culture appears to reflect the arrival of Uralic-speakers in Scandinavia. See The linguistic arguments: Uralic (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/language.shtml). It brought hunter-gathering back to Scandinavia after farming had arrived with the TRB. The anti-migrationist model meant that the conventional view for some time was that the Pitted Ware culture reflected farmers returning to hunter-gathering.

The recent study of the Gotland samples just added to what we knew already from aDNA mtDNA: the Pitted Ware people were no relation to the TRB people. The former do not reflect the latter going back to hunter-gathering.

Naturally you will find modern people in the Uralic-speaking areas and their close neighbours who show similarity to Pitted Ware types, just as you find Y-DNA N1c1 in those areas.

Jean, Uralic was never spoken in or near Poland.

Your sources are outdated. If I actually passed on what you just said to a couple of experts on Uralic languages that I know, they'd have a heart attack.

Also, N1c1 is almost at 0% in much of Poland, except near the Lithuanian border. So it's a Baltic thing, not a Uralic thing in Poland.

Look, we're about to be inundated with ancient DNA data. Do yourself a favor and consider the notion of significant genetic continuity in Poland since the Mesolithic, and even the fact that it was an area of several major expansions, both to the east and west.

The sooner you do, the better you'll come off in the long run.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 04, 2012, 07:00:52 AM
It seems misleading and incorrect to refer to Bell Beakers as "Mediterranean". Although there is some dispute over the accuracy of radiocarbon dating, thus far, the oldest rc dated Beaker stuff comes from the Tagus River Valley in Portugal. That may not be too far from the Mediterranean, but the Tagus flows west through the middle of Spain, across Portugal, and out into the Atlantic. The Tagus does not empty into the Mediterranean, and no part of the Tagus Valley is part of the Mediterranean littoral.

Some of the oldest Beaker material comes from the Hungarian Plain, which is hardly near the Mediterranean.



 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 04, 2012, 07:06:14 AM
If they are U106-, can we assume that they are probably P312+ or is that a step too far.

"The earliest form of Bell Beaker called the Maritime Bell Beaker probably originated in the vibrant copper-using communities of the Tagus estuary in Portugal around 2800 - 2700 BC and spread from there to many parts of western Europe.[2][7] An overview of all available sources from southern Germany concluded that the Bell Beaker Culture was a new and independent culture in that area, contemporary with the Corded Ware Culture.[8] This conclusion was supported by a review of radiocarbon dates for Bell Beaker across Europe, which showed that the earliest dates for Bell Beaker were 2900 BC in Iberia. This makes the style contemporary with Corded Ware, but beginning in a different region of Europe.[9] Bell Beaker has been suggested as a candidate for an early Indo-European culture, more specifically, an ancestral proto-Celtic."



They could have been P312+; it's a shame they weren't tested for it. It's also possible they were merely R-L11.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jdean on May 04, 2012, 07:11:13 AM
If they are U106-, can we assume that they are probably P312+ or is that a step too far.

"The earliest form of Bell Beaker called the Maritime Bell Beaker probably originated in the vibrant copper-using communities of the Tagus estuary in Portugal around 2800 - 2700 BC and spread from there to many parts of western Europe.[2][7] An overview of all available sources from southern Germany concluded that the Bell Beaker Culture was a new and independent culture in that area, contemporary with the Corded Ware Culture.[8] This conclusion was supported by a review of radiocarbon dates for Bell Beaker across Europe, which showed that the earliest dates for Bell Beaker were 2900 BC in Iberia. This makes the style contemporary with Corded Ware, but beginning in a different region of Europe.[9] Bell Beaker has been suggested as a candidate for an early Indo-European culture, more specifically, an ancestral proto-Celtic."



They could have been P312+; it's a shame they weren't tested for it. It's also possible they were merely R-L11.

Would it be worthwhile asking them if they would consider testing these two SNPs ?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: OConnor on May 04, 2012, 08:26:08 AM
it wouldn't hurt to ask.
If the answer is no..perhaps they would consider it when testing future samples?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 04, 2012, 08:28:27 AM
Jean Manco writes: “Links from DNA in Germany 2,600–2,500 BC to present-day people in Iberia do not prove an origin of the former from Iberia. Maliclavelli has that the wrong way around. Present-day people are descended from ancient people”.


I don’t know who Polako is, but he said two things I want to quote:

You're only delaying the inevitable.
The sooner you do, the better you'll come off in the long run.

About what you says to me, I’d want to remember you that you have just done a poor figure with me about the Basque mt.

Mutations in mtDNA are very rare and if I linked the Bell Beaker mtDNA with present day Portuguese (but weren’t Portuguese you too?) and no other one (I’d like to link it with Italian ones, and perhaps I found it in the Maria Lazzari one) this does mean that the closest all over the world are they and not others. Of course we could think that both came from elsewhere, but in History and in Genetics we shall get a theory, and I have one: from Italy to Iberia, from Iberia to Bell Beaker etc.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 04, 2012, 08:54:17 AM
it wouldn't hurt to ask.
If the answer is no..perhaps they would consider it when testing future samples?

I am working that angle with a few of the authors. Usually the answer is 'no', but let's see.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 04, 2012, 08:58:24 AM

Jean, Uralic was never spoken in or near Poland.

We don't know for sure how far south Finnic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnic_languages) spread before contracting northward under pressure from Baltic speakers, but the Comb Ceramic Culture (assumed to represent them) seems to reach the Vistula. I doubt whether they had much impact on the territory now Poland. But in any case Poland was pretty well empty when  the Slavs arrived, apart from Pomerania. Take heart! Poland is super-Slavic.

For those interested - Livonian (a Finnic language) remains as a minority language in Latvia and there are toponyms in Latvia of Finno-Ugrian origin.   http://mek.oszk.hu/06000/06010/06010.pdf
  


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jdean on May 04, 2012, 09:39:00 AM
it wouldn't hurt to ask.
If the answer is no..perhaps they would consider it when testing future samples?

I am working that angle with a few of the authors. Usually the answer is 'no', but let's see.

Fingers crossed !!!


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 04, 2012, 10:06:52 AM
...  and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b....

What are the known physical characteristics for the males?   Are they broad heads?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 04, 2012, 10:31:55 AM
...  and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b....

What are the known physical characteristics for the males?   Are they broad heads?

I was thinking that too.  People tend to think of them as massive bruisers of hefty build with brachycephalic heads.  However, I understand that it tends to be that the head is flattened at the back rather than really wide from side to side that produced the cranial index result.  Although very old and controversial if you google Coon races of Europe his book is online and he has quite a bit to say about the beaker people in the neolithic and copper age sections.  He seems to reckong that the type may have come from the Armenia/Anatolia zone along the Med in the copper age.  Ignore his calendar dates though as this was pre-the application of radiocarbon.  He seems to say that the big brachycephalic bruiser type is rarest in Iberia and most common towards the Rhine and then dilutes again to the east somewhat. More evidence that the actual entry to northern and central Europe of the beaker culture may have been rather to the east of Iberia regardless of whether or not the pots were invented there (a recent paper has disputed the earliest dates being from Portugal again).  I agree with jean that finding R1b in a beaker burial in Germany as some sort of evidence for R1b's origin in Iberia is a massive leap of illogic.  I keep think the main entry of this type was probably around western Italy by leapfrogging Scicilly etc and then up the Rhone as well as west to Iberia.  In this respect I find the L51* map very interesting in that it may be an echo of when L11* and P312* and perhaps U106* groups were heading off to varoius areas they may well have still had L51* lineages among them.  Stands to reason if L11 and P312 had only just come into existence.  Of course P312* is also oldest in the same area.  I think probablly L51 occurred as some L23* people rounded the north-west side of Italy by sea and then L11 and P312 occurred in the Rhone valley before the latter spread in all directions in a starburst.   

As for the dates for these burials in the recent paper.  They are pushing 2600BC and are early in the beaker sequence for central Europe.  Indeed they are about the same age as is normally calculated for L11 and P312 so it is possible they were L51* or L11*.  They really lived at the earliest possibly moment for P312* if the (remakablly consistant) variance calculations are right.   


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: ironroad41 on May 04, 2012, 10:38:24 AM
@ A.D.

You have a lot more confidence than I have in folk memory! :) It seldom seems to get passed on for more than three or four generations.

I hate to add to this excellent thread with a controversial subject like the Druids, but here we go.  I believe the Druid culture lasted almost 3K years at least.  From probably before Stonehenge to Anglesby Island and subsequently.

From what little is known, it was an oral culture re: religion/history?  If it took twenty years to get through the university, then there must have been a lot passed on, including farming information which would be linked to some of the primary holidays?
(solstices and equinoxes).


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 04, 2012, 10:39:25 AM
Here is Coon on Bell Beakers

While the earliest Metal Age culture was being carried westward through the Mediterranean by sea, other agencies conveyed it overland into central Europe. As before, the main highroad was the Danube Valley, but this time the center of earliest diffusion was not Bohemia, but Hungary. A series of crania from Bodrogkeresztür in that country56 are uniformly dolichocephalic, with the highest individual cranial index, out of more than fifty examples, only 76. This is too low for Danubians of the usual Neolithic type, and one suspects a movement from the northeast of peoples of Corded origin. The common presence of copper battle-axes, red ochre, tumulus burials, and other south Russian cultural traits in Copper Age sites in Hungary57 would tend to confirm this deduction. In the west Corded people brought the first metal to Switzerland, and in this case crania of definitely Corded type are involved.sup>58

The inhabitants of Yugoslavia during the Copper Age were, like those of Hungary, also uniformly dolichocephalic.59 Unfortunately, here also we have no further information of racial significance. As one approaches the mouth of the Danube, however, this dolichocephalic uniformity disappears. Four skulls from Russe in Bulgaria, include one male of Corded type, a mesocephalic male, and two brachycephalic females.60

From this evidence, such as it is, we may deduce that the people who brought copper into the Danube Valley at the close of the Neolithic period came from two centers, southern Russia and the Caucasus, and Anatolia, by way of Troy. The chief carriers were the Corded people or some others equally dolichocephalic, while brachycephals from Asia Minor were of little importance from the racial standpoint.

While Copper Age civilization was thus spreading westward along the Danube and the lands to the north, a countermovement in the form of the Bell Beaker invasion travelled eastward from the Rhine to the Danube, and as far as Poland and Hungary. The remains of these Bell Beaker people occupy single graves or groups of graves, rather than whole cemeteries; they were apparently wandering traders, trafficking in metals, for their gold spirals have been found in Danish graves of the corridor-tomb period. They were thus in all likelihood rivals of the Battle-Axe people in their search for amber.

It is not known how they went from Spain to central Europe. Sporadic finds in France and northern Italy suggest the Rhône-Rhine and the Brenner Pass routes as alternatives.61 In neither case is the evidence very satisfactory, and neither excludes the other. From the Rhine Valley as a center, Bell Beaker expeditions moved eastward into Bohemia, Austria, Poland, and Hungary; those who took part in these movements were eventually absorbed into the local populations. The Bell Beaker people who remained in the Rhinelands, however, came into intimate contact with the Corded people, who had invaded from the east and northeast, and with the corridor-tomb megalithic population to the north, whose domain extended down into the Netherlands. These three, of which the Bell Beaker element formed perhaps the dominant one, amalgamated to form an Early Bronze Age cultural unit, the so-called Zoned Beaker people, who invaded England and Scotland as the first important carriers of metal.

The Bell Beaker physical type is known to us from sixty or more skulls from scattered burials in Germany, Austria, Poland, Czecho-Slovakia, and Hungary.62 Of these, about one-third are truly brachycephalic, while the others are, almost without exception, mesocephals. In the Rhine country around Wörms, three-fourths or more of the Bell Beaker crania are brachycephalic; in Austria, one finds an equally high ratio; but in Bohemia and Poland the high brachycephaly becomes less frequent, and at Tököl in Hungary, in a series of ten crania, four are mesocephalic and six are dolichocephalic.63

So high is the mesocephalic ratio, and except for Hungary, so infrequent the truly long-headed crania associated with this type, that the mesocephals are clearly one branch of the main type, and not the product of local mixture with long heads. Morphologieally, the mesocephals are essentially Bell Beaker.

The series of skulls from the Rhineland, including nine adult males, is the most suitable for comparison (see Appendix I, col. 21). It is identical in the cranial index mean with that of Furst's forty-four male Bronze Age skulls from Cyprus, which have already been studied, and which have been called Dinaric. The Rhenish crania are a little larger in vault dimensions, and particularly in height; hut are almost identical facially. Morphologically, the two groups are also similar, but the Bell Beaker group is more extreme in many ways; the browridges are often heavy, the general ruggedness frequently greater. The faces are characteristically narrow, the orbits medium to high, the nasal skeleton high and aquiline; the occiput frequently flat. The stature for six males reached the high mean of 177 cm.

The deviation of the Rhenish Bell Beaker skulls, such as it is, from the Aegean and eastern Mediterranean Dinaric form, lies in a Borreby direction. It is, therefore, more than likely that the invaders mixed with the descendants of the earlier Neolithic brachycephals, whose territory stretched along the North Sea coast from southern Sweden to Belgium. On the whole, however, at the period represented by the Wörms crania, the eastern or Dinaric element was the more important.

The Spanish Bell Beaker problem now stands in a somewhat clearer light than before. The Dinaric type, with which the Rhenish Bell beakers are associated, is one which entered the western Mediterranean by sea from the east, and eventually moved, by some route yet to be determined in an accurate manner, to the north, and eventually to central Europe. The paucity of brachycephals in Spain may be due to the paucity of remains of this culture in general. It is still possible, one might add, that certain North African elements became involved in the Bell Beaker racial type, but such an accretion is unnecessary and hardly likely.

The Bell Beaker people were probably the first intrusive brachycephals to enter the Austrian Alps, and the mountains of northeastern Bohemia, for the push of Lake Dwelling Alpines southeastward toward the Balkans happened later in the Bronze Age. It is, therefore, possible that the present Dinaric populations of the Dinaric Alps and the Carpathians may be derived in part from this eastward irvasion. The small numbers and scattered burial habits of the Bell Beaker people on the more densely populated plains of Europe must have made them of much less ethnic importance there than in the mountains.

In their Rhineland center, the more numerous Bell Beaker people had constant relationships with the inhabitants of Denmark, who were still burying in corridor tombs. Furthermore, the Corded people, one branch of whom invaded Jutland and introduced the single-grave type of burial, also migrated to the Rhine Valley, and here amalgamated themselves with the Bell Beaker people, who were already in process of mixing with their Borreby type neighbors. The result of this triple fusion was a great expansion, and a population overflow down the Rhine, in the direction of Britain.





Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 04, 2012, 10:47:59 AM
Coon sort on indicates the movement of the 'beaker type' was underway in the west Med. in immediate pre-beaker times

The Copper and Bronze Age in the Western Mediterranean

 

In early Metal Ale times influences from Crete and the Aegean, including those from the second city of Troy, spread westward to Sicily, Sardinia, Italy, and Spain, reaching also the smaller islands of the western Mediterranean. This maritime diffusion was probably carried by seafarers in search of new sources of metal as well as markets for their products, and the traders and adventurers followed the old Megalithic routes. In the beginning the bringers of metal and the Late Megalithic colonists may well have been the same people.

The evidence of the racial composition of the Copper Age sailors who reached Italy and the Italian islands is simple and direct. The moderately tall, long-headed, mid narrow-nosed Megalithic people who were implanted, during the Late Neolithic, upon the smaller Mediterranean type which had preceded them, were followed, during the Aeneolithic by other, of the same kind, in the company of equally tall brachycephals. The latter resembled the people of the same Dinaric head form in Cyprus, Crete, and the Aegean, and without doubt formed a westward extension of the same movement.

In Sicily, which probably received metal earlier than most of the mainland or the islands farther west, Copper Age skulls of one series from Isnello28 are all of general Mediterranean type, with the Megalithic variety predominant, as shown by excessive skull lengths, moderate vault heights, and narrow noses. The mean stature for twenty-four males, presumably of this type, was 169 cm. Other Sicilian series, however, do include brachycephals, as at Chiusella and Villafratti, with cranial indices ranging as high as 91.29' These form, however, no more than one-third of the total Aeneolithic series from Sicily. In the true Bronze Age which followed, the incidence of these brachycephals increased.

In Sardinia a large series of sixty-three Copper Age skulls from Anghelu Ruju30 includes sixteen per cent, or ten individuals, of the new brachycephalic type, while the others resemble the long heads of Sicily. The group as a whole, irrespective of head form, was tall.31 The racial composition of Corsica during these periods is known only through the presence of one small, short-statured, long-headed female skeleton of either Neolithic or Aeneolithic age, and two brachycephalic crania from the Bronze Age.32

It would be interesting to supplement this survey of the Italian islands with a study of the crania found in the elaborate burial chambers of Malta, of late Neolithic or early Metal Age date, but the excavators of these vaults, professional and otherwise, literally threw away what was probably the longest unified series of human crania ever found, numbering over seven thousand. We are told that these early Maltese were "Mediterraneans," and know little else about them.33

On the mainland of Italy, Aeneolithic skeletons, which are found mostly on the western side of the central portion of the peninsula, belong to the same types found on the islands, but brachycephals are more abundant, being equal in number to the dolichoand mesocephals.34 Some of the Aeneolithic Italians of the Campagna and of Latium were very tall and large headed, with both mesocephalic and brachycephalic fortes.35 In Istria, at the head of the Adriatic, the Dinaric population which is dominant in that peninsula today had begun to arrive in the Copper and Bronze Ages,36 judging by a series of six female crania which bear definite indications of this type, such as flattening of the occiput, narrow face, and projecting nasal bones. The new invaders may, therefore, have travelled up the Adriatic as well as over the Tyrrhenian Sea.37

Reviewing the Italian material, on both metrical and morphological grounds we may determine that the round-headed racial type which came into the middle Mediterranean with the introduction of metal was of a general Dinaric character, and without doubt came from Asia Minor and the Aegean, where it first appeared in the last centuries of the third millennium B.C. Since the metal ages of the middle and Nvestern Mediterranean were later than those farther east, the chronological aspect of this theory presents no contradictions.

The Balearic Islands, Spain, and Portugal were, of course, the next stops in the westward spread of the metal-carrying seafarers through the Mediterranean. During the Early Copper Age in Spain, the distinctive Bell Beaker culture arose, which was soon to spread northward and eastward into central Europe, and eventually to Britain, as an important racial movement; and another culture of equal local importance, that of Los Millares in Almería, developed from eastern beginnings, with an emphasis on the importation of Egyptian and Near Eastern materials, such as hippopotamus ivory, ostrich egg shells, and actual Near Eastern pottery.38 The center of Early Bronze Age civilization again lay in AImeria, with el Argar as the principal site, and began about 2000 B.C. During this period, which lasted until the Iron Age, there was again much Egyptian and Aegean influence.

Unfortunately, in the Iberian Peninsula, as elsewhere, the human record is not sufficient to support the complexity of the cultural. The craniologist cannot keep pace Nvith the archaeologist; we cannot, without more numerous and more accurately correlated skeletons, tell in all cases what physical types went with each archaeological entity.

In the Balearic Islands, for a beginning, a few dolichocephalic crania, and one brachycephal, have been found in the talayots, or corbelled stone towers resembling the Sardinian nuraghes and Scottish brochs, which were first built in the Copper Age but which were used until the advent of iron.39 Fifty-eight adult and five juvenile crania with long bones from a naveta, or long barrow, in Menorca, are said to have represented a homogeneous group of people with short stature, long-heads (all cranial indices being under 75), low faces, prominent, aquiline noses, and projecting chins. The form of the scapulae and humeri of the males showed that they had developed great shoulder and arm muscles from slinging, the activity from which the islands derived their name. Three other skulls from an ossuary at Biniatap are brachycephalic.40

In the Copper Age groups from mainland Spain and Portugal, the old long-headed types overwhelmingly prevail: out of one hundred and thirtyfour crania, which represent all that could be assembled for this survey, only fifteen, or nine per cent, were brachycephalic.41 If one includes Ariège, Basses Pyrenees, and Aveyron in the south of France, twenty-eight crania may be added, of which only two are brachycephalic.42 One of these, from a site near the city of Narbonne, possesses all of the cranial and facial features typical of the Bronze Age brachycephals of Cyprus, Italy, and the Italian islands. In few of the Spanish instances are extensive details given, but it is probable that the brachycephalic crania there are also of the same type.

Many of the dolichocephalic Copper Age skulls are of Megalithic or Long Barrow type, while others are of a smaller, less rugged, Mesolithic or Neolithic Mediterranean variety. Among the mesocephalic crania, some may again be small Mediterraneans, while others, with larger vault dimensions, may in many instances be mixtures between Megalithic and brachycephalic types. The statures of the large dolichoceplialic group average about 167 or 168 cm.; taller than most living Spaniards and as tall as the Neolithic Long Barrow population in Britain. Other dolichocephalic crania go with short stature, with a mean of about 160 cm. Unfortunately, it is not possible to determine the approximate proportions of Megalithic and Mediterranean types, but the former seem to be at least one-half of the total.

A special development of the Copper Age in Spain was the Bell Beaker culture, about which more will be said later, since its chief influence in the racial sense fell upon areas in other parts of Europe. It is at present the general belief of archaeologists that the Bell Beaker culture arose in central Spain, shortly before 2000 B.C., from local beginnings.43 A North African origin is rendered unlikely by the supposed absence of a Bronze Age south of Gibraltar, although recent work in Morocco has revealed some supposedly early metal.44 Where Bell Beaker burials are found in central Europe, the skeletons are almost always of the same tall brachycephalic type which we have already studied in the eastern Mediterranean and Italy. In Spain, however, they are frequently of the Megalithic race. The basis for the belief that the Bell Beaker people of Spain were Dinarics rests largely upon three cranial fragments from the type site of this culture at Ciempozuelos, near Madrid, and upon one complete mesocephalic skull from Cerro de Tomillo some forty miles away.45

The measurements of the three fragments are uncertain, and their allocation to a definite type impossible.46 However, all three fragments appear to be brachycephalic, and one to have a high vault. One has strong, another weak, browridges. One seems to have a slight lambdoid flattening. In the only fragment which possesses facial bones, the orbits are high and the nose narrow. The Cerro de Tomillo skull is not, however, a pure dolichocephal, and does resemble, in a partial sense, the Dinaric brachycephalic variety which was common in the Mediterranean at that time.

Although there seems to be little doubt in the minds of the archaeologists that the Bell Beaker culture developed in Spain, and although eastern Mediterranean brachycephals came there at about the same time, the manner in which the physical type and the culture became identified with each other is still obscure.

During the Early Bronze Age, after the efflorescence of the Bell Beaker people, Spain became a great center of metallurgy and trading activity, rivalling the Aegean in importance. The colonists from the east, who had originally located themselves in Spain merely as miners and forwarding agents of metal, now settled down to producing the finished products of the Bronze Age in Spain itself, for local sale, since disorders in the Mycenaean and Minoan realms had apparently cut them off from their homelands.47 Furthermore, the introduction of fresh cultural elements from the east suggests that new people had joined them.

The principal site of the Early Bronze Age, el Argar in the province of Almeria, is located near the silver mines of Herrerias, which were worked in ancient times. From some thirteen hundred flexed urn burials, seventy skulls have been recovered, of which twenty-nine are those of adult males, and forty of adult females.48 The el Argar series shows quite definitely that the Early Bronze Age people of Almeria were not descendants of previous inhabitants, but to a large extent a new population, with definite Near Eastern relationships, as one might suppose from the cultural indications.

The series as a whole is one of small people, with a mean male stature of 158 to 160 cm.; the earlier Copper Age immigrants, for the most part, were ten centimeters taller. The skulls gravitate around the indices of 76 and 77; for sixty per cent of male and fifty-eight per cent of female crania are mesocephalic. Of the remaining skulls, long heads outnumber round heads two to one. The series is not very homogeneous, and the cranial index and most other criteria of form show modalities which make it certain that the el Argar people included at least two types which had not become completely amalgamated.

The principal cranial element is a normal, rather small variety of Mediterranean, which seems to resemble, both metrically and in description, predynastic or early dynastic Egyptian forms, or at the same time, elements which entered Spain in the Neolithic. Prominence of the browridges at glabella, and a considerable nasion depression, make this type of Mediterranean rather unlike the Cappadocian variety common in Asia Minor, although metrically there is nothing to prevent such a relationship.

The second type is the new brachycephalic element, which seems to have been the dominant one politically, in that two female skulls found wearing silver crowns both belonged to it. It was apparently some form of Near Eastern brachycephal with which we are already in a General way familiar - the skull is short, rather than broad; the vault is medium or low; the forehead is narrow, the lambdoid region often flattened, while the greatest breadth of the vault comes well to the rear. The nose is high and narrow, and the nasal bones join the frontal with little depression, while a smooth glabella heightens the impression of a high-bridged Near Eastern type of nose. Although the units are high and rounded, the face is rather low, but the mandible is surprisingly broad, often with everted gonial angles. There is also a perceptible amount of alveolar prognathism.

Although this is not exactly the brachycephalic type which we met in the Copper Age, and which became identified with the Bell Beaker people, it is, nevertheless, definitely a Near Eastern variety of brachycephal which is familiar in Asia Minor and Syria today. The el Argar people represent a mixture of elements which could be duplicated in the modern Near East, but not one with which, in our ignorance of most of that end of the Mediterranean, we are already familiar. Some of the Mediterranean racial contingent may well have been of earlier Spanish derivation, but if so the absence of Megalithic and Copper Age forms is surprising.

In other parts of Spain no such change of population as that of Almeria is manifest. Mediterraneans, both large and small, are carried over from the Neolithic and Copper Ages, while the larger variety of brachycephal also continues." Out in Mallorca and Menorca, the dolichocephalic element seems to remain as the exclusive or predominant one, for the most part tall and of Long Barrow vault form.50

The westward migrations of peoples from the Aegean and the eastern end of the Mediterranean, during the Late Neolithic, the Aeneolithic, and the Early Bronze Age, must have affected the populations of Italy, Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, the Balearics, and the Iberian Peninsula to a considerable degree. These were real colonizations which added new racial elements to the Mesolithic and Early Neolithic Mediterranean sub-stratum. By the middle of the Bronze Age, the central and western N-fediterranean lands had assumed the racial characteristics which they still, for the most part, bear. Except for northern and central Italy, later migrations were to bring little that was new.







Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: JeanL on May 04, 2012, 10:51:12 AM
You're only delaying the inevitable.

What exactly is the inevitable?



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: MHammers on May 04, 2012, 11:19:55 AM
Coon sort on indicates the movement of the 'beaker type' was underway in the west Med. in immediate pre-beaker times

The Copper and Bronze Age in the Western Mediterranean

 

In early Metal Ale times influences from Crete and the Aegean, including those from the second city of Troy, spread westward to Sicily, Sardinia, Italy, and Spain, reaching also the smaller islands of the western Mediterranean. This maritime diffusion was probably carried by seafarers in search of new sources of metal as well as markets for their products, and the traders and adventurers followed the old Megalithic routes. In the beginning the bringers of metal and the Late Megalithic colonists may well have been the same people.

The evidence of the racial composition of the Copper Age sailors who reached Italy and the Italian islands is simple and direct. The moderately tall, long-headed, mid narrow-nosed Megalithic people who were implanted, during the Late Neolithic, upon the smaller Mediterranean type which had preceded them, were followed, during the Aeneolithic by other, of the same kind, in the company of equally tall brachycephals. The latter resembled the people of the same Dinaric head form in Cyprus, Crete, and the Aegean, and without doubt formed a westward extension of the same movement.

In Sicily, which probably received metal earlier than most of the mainland or the islands farther west, Copper Age skulls of one series from Isnello28 are all of general Mediterranean type, with the Megalithic variety predominant, as shown by excessive skull lengths, moderate vault heights, and narrow noses. The mean stature for twenty-four males, presumably of this type, was 169 cm. Other Sicilian series, however, do include brachycephals, as at Chiusella and Villafratti, with cranial indices ranging as high as 91.29' These form, however, no more than one-third of the total Aeneolithic series from Sicily. In the true Bronze Age which followed, the incidence of these brachycephals increased.

In Sardinia a large series of sixty-three Copper Age skulls from Anghelu Ruju30 includes sixteen per cent, or ten individuals, of the new brachycephalic type, while the others resemble the long heads of Sicily. The group as a whole, irrespective of head form, was tall.31 The racial composition of Corsica during these periods is known only through the presence of one small, short-statured, long-headed female skeleton of either Neolithic or Aeneolithic age, and two brachycephalic crania from the Bronze Age.32

It would be interesting to supplement this survey of the Italian islands with a study of the crania found in the elaborate burial chambers of Malta, of late Neolithic or early Metal Age date, but the excavators of these vaults, professional and otherwise, literally threw away what was probably the longest unified series of human crania ever found, numbering over seven thousand. We are told that these early Maltese were "Mediterraneans," and know little else about them.33

On the mainland of Italy, Aeneolithic skeletons, which are found mostly on the western side of the central portion of the peninsula, belong to the same types found on the islands, but brachycephals are more abundant, being equal in number to the dolichoand mesocephals.34 Some of the Aeneolithic Italians of the Campagna and of Latium were very tall and large headed, with both mesocephalic and brachycephalic fortes.35 In Istria, at the head of the Adriatic, the Dinaric population which is dominant in that peninsula today had begun to arrive in the Copper and Bronze Ages,36 judging by a series of six female crania which bear definite indications of this type, such as flattening of the occiput, narrow face, and projecting nasal bones. The new invaders may, therefore, have travelled up the Adriatic as well as over the Tyrrhenian Sea.37

Reviewing the Italian material, on both metrical and morphological grounds we may determine that the round-headed racial type which came into the middle Mediterranean with the introduction of metal was of a general Dinaric character, and without doubt came from Asia Minor and the Aegean, where it first appeared in the last centuries of the third millennium B.C. Since the metal ages of the middle and Nvestern Mediterranean were later than those farther east, the chronological aspect of this theory presents no contradictions.

The Balearic Islands, Spain, and Portugal were, of course, the next stops in the westward spread of the metal-carrying seafarers through the Mediterranean. During the Early Copper Age in Spain, the distinctive Bell Beaker culture arose, which was soon to spread northward and eastward into central Europe, and eventually to Britain, as an important racial movement; and another culture of equal local importance, that of Los Millares in Almería, developed from eastern beginnings, with an emphasis on the importation of Egyptian and Near Eastern materials, such as hippopotamus ivory, ostrich egg shells, and actual Near Eastern pottery.38 The center of Early Bronze Age civilization again lay in AImeria, with el Argar as the principal site, and began about 2000 B.C. During this period, which lasted until the Iron Age, there was again much Egyptian and Aegean influence.

Unfortunately, in the Iberian Peninsula, as elsewhere, the human record is not sufficient to support the complexity of the cultural. The craniologist cannot keep pace Nvith the archaeologist; we cannot, without more numerous and more accurately correlated skeletons, tell in all cases what physical types went with each archaeological entity.

In the Balearic Islands, for a beginning, a few dolichocephalic crania, and one brachycephal, have been found in the talayots, or corbelled stone towers resembling the Sardinian nuraghes and Scottish brochs, which were first built in the Copper Age but which were used until the advent of iron.39 Fifty-eight adult and five juvenile crania with long bones from a naveta, or long barrow, in Menorca, are said to have represented a homogeneous group of people with short stature, long-heads (all cranial indices being under 75), low faces, prominent, aquiline noses, and projecting chins. The form of the scapulae and humeri of the males showed that they had developed great shoulder and arm muscles from slinging, the activity from which the islands derived their name. Three other skulls from an ossuary at Biniatap are brachycephalic.40

In the Copper Age groups from mainland Spain and Portugal, the old long-headed types overwhelmingly prevail: out of one hundred and thirtyfour crania, which represent all that could be assembled for this survey, only fifteen, or nine per cent, were brachycephalic.41 If one includes Ariège, Basses Pyrenees, and Aveyron in the south of France, twenty-eight crania may be added, of which only two are brachycephalic.42 One of these, from a site near the city of Narbonne, possesses all of the cranial and facial features typical of the Bronze Age brachycephals of Cyprus, Italy, and the Italian islands. In few of the Spanish instances are extensive details given, but it is probable that the brachycephalic crania there are also of the same type.

Many of the dolichocephalic Copper Age skulls are of Megalithic or Long Barrow type, while others are of a smaller, less rugged, Mesolithic or Neolithic Mediterranean variety. Among the mesocephalic crania, some may again be small Mediterraneans, while others, with larger vault dimensions, may in many instances be mixtures between Megalithic and brachycephalic types. The statures of the large dolichoceplialic group average about 167 or 168 cm.; taller than most living Spaniards and as tall as the Neolithic Long Barrow population in Britain. Other dolichocephalic crania go with short stature, with a mean of about 160 cm. Unfortunately, it is not possible to determine the approximate proportions of Megalithic and Mediterranean types, but the former seem to be at least one-half of the total.

A special development of the Copper Age in Spain was the Bell Beaker culture, about which more will be said later, since its chief influence in the racial sense fell upon areas in other parts of Europe. It is at present the general belief of archaeologists that the Bell Beaker culture arose in central Spain, shortly before 2000 B.C., from local beginnings.43 A North African origin is rendered unlikely by the supposed absence of a Bronze Age south of Gibraltar, although recent work in Morocco has revealed some supposedly early metal.44 Where Bell Beaker burials are found in central Europe, the skeletons are almost always of the same tall brachycephalic type which we have already studied in the eastern Mediterranean and Italy. In Spain, however, they are frequently of the Megalithic race. The basis for the belief that the Bell Beaker people of Spain were Dinarics rests largely upon three cranial fragments from the type site of this culture at Ciempozuelos, near Madrid, and upon one complete mesocephalic skull from Cerro de Tomillo some forty miles away.45

The measurements of the three fragments are uncertain, and their allocation to a definite type impossible.46 However, all three fragments appear to be brachycephalic, and one to have a high vault. One has strong, another weak, browridges. One seems to have a slight lambdoid flattening. In the only fragment which possesses facial bones, the orbits are high and the nose narrow. The Cerro de Tomillo skull is not, however, a pure dolichocephal, and does resemble, in a partial sense, the Dinaric brachycephalic variety which was common in the Mediterranean at that time.

Although there seems to be little doubt in the minds of the archaeologists that the Bell Beaker culture developed in Spain, and although eastern Mediterranean brachycephals came there at about the same time, the manner in which the physical type and the culture became identified with each other is still obscure.

During the Early Bronze Age, after the efflorescence of the Bell Beaker people, Spain became a great center of metallurgy and trading activity, rivalling the Aegean in importance. The colonists from the east, who had originally located themselves in Spain merely as miners and forwarding agents of metal, now settled down to producing the finished products of the Bronze Age in Spain itself, for local sale, since disorders in the Mycenaean and Minoan realms had apparently cut them off from their homelands.47 Furthermore, the introduction of fresh cultural elements from the east suggests that new people had joined them.

The principal site of the Early Bronze Age, el Argar in the province of Almeria, is located near the silver mines of Herrerias, which were worked in ancient times. From some thirteen hundred flexed urn burials, seventy skulls have been recovered, of which twenty-nine are those of adult males, and forty of adult females.48 The el Argar series shows quite definitely that the Early Bronze Age people of Almeria were not descendants of previous inhabitants, but to a large extent a new population, with definite Near Eastern relationships, as one might suppose from the cultural indications.

The series as a whole is one of small people, with a mean male stature of 158 to 160 cm.; the earlier Copper Age immigrants, for the most part, were ten centimeters taller. The skulls gravitate around the indices of 76 and 77; for sixty per cent of male and fifty-eight per cent of female crania are mesocephalic. Of the remaining skulls, long heads outnumber round heads two to one. The series is not very homogeneous, and the cranial index and most other criteria of form show modalities which make it certain that the el Argar people included at least two types which had not become completely amalgamated.

The principal cranial element is a normal, rather small variety of Mediterranean, which seems to resemble, both metrically and in description, predynastic or early dynastic Egyptian forms, or at the same time, elements which entered Spain in the Neolithic. Prominence of the browridges at glabella, and a considerable nasion depression, make this type of Mediterranean rather unlike the Cappadocian variety common in Asia Minor, although metrically there is nothing to prevent such a relationship.

The second type is the new brachycephalic element, which seems to have been the dominant one politically, in that two female skulls found wearing silver crowns both belonged to it. It was apparently some form of Near Eastern brachycephal with which we are already in a General way familiar - the skull is short, rather than broad; the vault is medium or low; the forehead is narrow, the lambdoid region often flattened, while the greatest breadth of the vault comes well to the rear. The nose is high and narrow, and the nasal bones join the frontal with little depression, while a smooth glabella heightens the impression of a high-bridged Near Eastern type of nose. Although the units are high and rounded, the face is rather low, but the mandible is surprisingly broad, often with everted gonial angles. There is also a perceptible amount of alveolar prognathism.

Although this is not exactly the brachycephalic type which we met in the Copper Age, and which became identified with the Bell Beaker people, it is, nevertheless, definitely a Near Eastern variety of brachycephal which is familiar in Asia Minor and Syria today. The el Argar people represent a mixture of elements which could be duplicated in the modern Near East, but not one with which, in our ignorance of most of that end of the Mediterranean, we are already familiar. Some of the Mediterranean racial contingent may well have been of earlier Spanish derivation, but if so the absence of Megalithic and Copper Age forms is surprising.

In other parts of Spain no such change of population as that of Almeria is manifest. Mediterraneans, both large and small, are carried over from the Neolithic and Copper Ages, while the larger variety of brachycephal also continues." Out in Mallorca and Menorca, the dolichocephalic element seems to remain as the exclusive or predominant one, for the most part tall and of Long Barrow vault form.50

The westward migrations of peoples from the Aegean and the eastern end of the Mediterranean, during the Late Neolithic, the Aeneolithic, and the Early Bronze Age, must have affected the populations of Italy, Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, the Balearics, and the Iberian Peninsula to a considerable degree. These were real colonizations which added new racial elements to the Mesolithic and Early Neolithic Mediterranean sub-stratum. By the middle of the Bronze Age, the central and western N-fediterranean lands had assumed the racial characteristics which they still, for the most part, bear. Except for northern and central Italy, later migrations were to bring little that was new.

The brachycephalic element also became more common in SE Europe in the 4th millenium BC for whatever reasons.  One thing about the central European and German Beakers is they are described as having a narrow face which was characteristic of previous neolithic farmers.  This is one reason why R1b probably didn't come from the steppe.  The Yamnaya were noted for having broad faces, although this type didn't seem to make to the Hungarian plain in large number.  My guess is that many of the Yamnaya who migrated up the Danube were physically more like the farming populations they had absorbed.  However, the Beakers were certainly influenced by the steppe via SE Europe.  British Beakers did have the robust element, but that can be explained by admixture with remnant pre-neolithic peoples in the west.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 04, 2012, 11:31:26 AM
In response to queries here and by email:

The Middle Elbe-Saarle region has a number of Bell Beaker sites. The earliest dated in the survey by Muller and van Willigen 2001 was that at Bleckendorf (2850-2500 cal BC). That has a Corded Ware pot, but hammer-headed pin and copper objects (a hilt tang dagger and a metal awl) which have been related to Bell Beakers. "This relation was confirmed by the orientation of the skeleton (N-S)". Drawings of BB pottery from this region with dates can be found in their paper.

The  burial ground at Kromsdorf was identified as Bell Beaker by "the north–south orientation of interred individuals and a characteristic Glockenbecher [Bell Beaker] vessel". I can find no published archaeological paper on this site, nor is one cited by Lee et al, so the 1994 excavation was probably written up in a report which is gathering dust somewhere.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 04, 2012, 11:41:47 AM
In response to queries here and by email:

The Middle Elbe-Saarle region has a number of Bell Beaker sites. The earliest dated in the survey by Muller and van Willigen 2001 was that at Bleckendorf (2850-2500 cal BC). That has a Corded Ware pot, but hammer-headed pin and copper objects (a hilt tang dagger and a metal awl) which have been related to Bell Beakers. "This relation was confirmed by the orientation of the skeleton (N-S)". Drawings of BB pottery from this region with dates can be found in their paper.

The  burial ground at Kromsdorf was identified as Bell Beaker by "the north–south orientation of interred individuals and a characteristic Glockenbecher [Bell Beaker] vessel". I can find no published archaeological paper on this site, nor is one cited by Lee et al, so the 1994 excavation was probably written up in a report which is gathering dust somewhere.

and folks note the wide date range due to a problem in the radiocarbon calibration curve n this period.  This has been raised again recently to question if we really can disntinguish between dates of 2850BC and 2500BC and hence perhaps the earliest beaker geography remains uncertain. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: A_Wode on May 04, 2012, 12:55:18 PM
The challenge with Coon's work is that these people were constantly mixing with one another, so it is impossible to determine at any given point of time - that particular skeleton's ancestral history.

It looks to me like a mediterranean population expanded north-east as the population grew with new farming and metal technology, and mixed with north-east/east Europeans.

We definitely don't have flat occipitals though :)


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: razyn on May 04, 2012, 01:17:22 PM
and folks note the wide date range due to a problem in the radiocarbon calibration curve n this period.  This has been raised again recently to question if we really can disntinguish between dates of 2850BC and 2500BC and hence perhaps the earliest beaker geography remains uncertain. 

This has been mentioned, but fleetingly and on another thread.  If 2850 near the mouth of the Elbe is about as accurate (or inaccurate) as 2900 near the Tagus, or elsewhere in Portugal, the whole west-to-east framework initiated by the early carbon dating there might be something of a house of cards.  Or at best an oversimplification.

Among the rambling commentaries on Dienekes' blog today, one princenuadha has noted that "The mutations on r1b in Europe don't follow a Mediterranean path from the middle east."  That's only a concern if you believe that maritime commerce in that era was limited to warm water.  I still like the Baltic -- North Sea -- Bay of Biscay notion.  It may not fit the bulk of the archaeology as well, but it fits the Y-DNA better.  And it's at least feasible that some helpful archaeological sites have been underwater for a few thousand years.

I have no opinion (yet) on which kind of -cephalic tends to accompany which Y haplogroups -- always assuming that any such correlation exists.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 04, 2012, 01:35:05 PM
and folks note the wide date range due to a problem in the radiocarbon calibration curve n this period.  This has been raised again recently to question if we really can disntinguish between dates of 2850BC and 2500BC and hence perhaps the earliest beaker geography remains uncertain.  

This has been mentioned, but fleetingly and on another thread.  If 2850 near the mouth of the Elbe is about as accurate (or inaccurate) as 2900 near the Tagus, or elsewhere in Portugal, the whole west-to-east framework initiated by the early carbon dating there might be something of a house of cards.  Or at best an oversimplification.

Among the rambling commentaries on Dienekes' blog today, one princenuadha has noted that "The mutations on r1b in Europe don't follow a Mediterranean path from the middle east."  That's only a concern if you believe that maritime commerce in that era was limited to warm water.  I still like the Baltic -- North Sea -- Bay of Biscay notion. It may not fit the bulk of the archaeology as well,  but it fits the Y-DNA better.  And it's at least feasible that some helpful archaeological sites have been underwater for a few thousand years.

I have no opinion (yet) on which kind of -cephalic tends to accompany which Y haplogroups -- always assuming that any such correlation exists.

Really, how so?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 04, 2012, 02:07:23 PM
The idea we have nailed the earliest dates for beaker should be treated with caution.  A recent paper has pointed out that the radiocarbon calibration curve has a problem right at the time of the beginning of beaker and the issue of origin point of beaker is still open and could be anywhere in Europe. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: razyn on May 04, 2012, 02:52:46 PM
It may not fit the bulk of the archaeology as well,  but it fits the Y-DNA better.

Really, how so?

Umm, it's kind of a digression, but -- by allowing eastern things to move westward, northern things to move southward, and all of the above movements to terminate only when they get to an ocean too big to cross in open boats within a day or two.

As opposed to making a big Mediterranean leapfrog from SW Asia to Portugal (via Italy, if Gioiello is watching), to fit the radiocarbon date of a couple of early sites (and the asterisks of a couple of families) -- and then slowly filtering back to Poland, Ukraine, Finland, etc. over the next thousand years or so, while largely failing to leave a genetic trail along the southern route.

Not that I have any objection whatever to the warm water, and all.  I'm just looking at the same maps and pictures you are (Maciamo Hay's, Cunliffe's, Anthony's, Jean Manco's, etc.) and seeing slightly different things.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 04, 2012, 03:00:48 PM
It may not fit the bulk of the archaeology as well,  but it fits the Y-DNA better.

Really, how so?

Umm, it's kind of a digression, but -- by allowing eastern things to move westward, northern things to move southward, and all of the above movements to terminate only when they get to an ocean too big to cross in open boats within a day or two.

As opposed to make a big Mediterranean leapfrog from SW Asia to Portugal (via Italy, if Gioiello is watching), to fit the radiocarbon date of a couple of early sites (and the asterisks of a couple of families) -- and then slowly filtering back to Poland, Ukraine, Finland, etc. over the next thousand years or so, while largely failing to leave a genetic trail along the southern route.

Not that I have any objection whatever to the warm water, and all.  I'm just looking at the same maps and pictures you are (Maciamo Hay's, Cunliffe's, Anthony's, Jean Manco's, etc.) and seeing slightly different things.

I'm seeing the same east to west everyone else is and I am very skeptical of Beakers from Iberia. The thing I'm seeing though is L23 from the SE (Balkans? Anatolia? S. Italy?) and then making its way into France, which is not the same as saying it made its way from SE Asia to Portugal and then exploded from there.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: razyn on May 04, 2012, 03:19:10 PM

I'm seeing the same east to west everyone else is and I am very skeptical of Beakers from Iberia. The thing I'm seeing though is L23 from the SE (Balkans? Anatolia? S. Italy?) and then making its way into France, which is not the same as saying it made its way from SE Asia to Portugal and then exploded from there.

I'll let you be an L23 Ligurian and wear that cool helmet (that used to be your avatar), if you let me suppose that some of us Polish DF27s came around the Breton peninsula, up the Loire, and if economically necessary down the Rhone, in something like the keelboat that was my avatar.  (Still is, on the MolGen forum.)


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 04, 2012, 03:23:41 PM

I'm seeing the same east to west everyone else is and I am very skeptical of Beakers from Iberia. The thing I'm seeing though is L23 from the SE (Balkans? Anatolia? S. Italy?) and then making its way into France, which is not the same as saying it made its way from SE Asia to Portugal and then exploded from there.

I'll let you be an L23 Ligurian and wear that cool helmet (that used to be your avatar), if you let me suppose that some of us Polish DF27s came around the Breton peninsula, up the Loire, and if economically necessary down the Rhone, in something like the keelboat that was my avatar.  (Still is, on the MolGen forum.)

Deal. I'll be fly fishing the Shenandoah in a few months, so if I see the keelboat, I'll know it's you!


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: razyn on May 04, 2012, 03:31:15 PM
Deal. I'll be fly fishing the Shenandoah in a few months, so if I see the keelboat, I'll know it's you!

Actually it's probably a guy named Dan Guzy, I'm too old to enjoy spending the day wet, anymore.  If I ever did.  But apparently, my ancestors just loved it.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 04, 2012, 04:04:09 PM
[quote author=Richard Rocca link=topic=10580.msg130532#msg130532 .
I'm seeing the same east to west everyone else is and I am very skeptical of Beakers from Iberia. The thing I'm seeing though is L23 from the SE (Balkans? Anatolia? S. Italy?) and then making its way into France, which is not the same as saying it made its way from SE Asia to Portugal and then exploded from there.
[/quote]
The colonization of “Italian” agriculturalists 7500 ya from “Grotta delle Arene Candide” or other places in Italy is certainly demonstrated by many papers. The places are the same  where you have detected R-L51+ in Iberia. There is also a paper about the “Tudorella sulcata” and its origin in Sardinia I spoke about in the past in some thread here.
The problem, you know, is if it is too soon for R-L51 or some subclades and for the Ligurian language or something similar. I have some doubt too, even though I have less difficult for the Y than for the language. But it is an hypothesis that should be demonstrated. But also for an European R1b1a2* in Europe 4600 YBP many had many doubts till yesterday. My hypotheses of course are based on many knowledge, for instance I have said from many years that probably the most ancient witness of a similar Celtic language could be the “Stele di Novilara” and many linguists have always said that if there was a country in Europe with the presence of many and differentiated languages was Italy.
Of course we are waiting for other aDNA tests, and we know that Prof Caramelli of Florence and many French Geneticists are working on this, and if French scholars has come to Italy for some bones probably it is because they have an idea of what they are searching for.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: razyn on May 04, 2012, 07:54:01 PM
You're only delaying the inevitable.
What exactly is the inevitable?

I don't know either, but apparently it's Polish:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/first-r1b-from-neolithic-europeand-it.html

I find myself in the embarrassing position of agreeing with part of the position of someone who is even less temperate than Maliciavelli.  But I certainly don't share his point of view; only one or two conclusions.  I do think we may need to examine the Vistula, and other north-flowing eastern waterways, for the full R1b1a2 story.  But that's about it; and the people involved were not Slavs or Poles or any of that modern stuff.  More like proto-Italo-Celts -- not that they knew that, at the time.

And I actually expect Jean M will have the last laugh about this, even burdened as she is with all those cows.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: NealtheRed on May 04, 2012, 08:27:17 PM
You're only delaying the inevitable.
What exactly is the inevitable?

I don't know either, but apparently it's Polish:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/first-r1b-from-neolithic-europeand-it.html

I find myself in the embarrassing position of agreeing with part of the position of someone who is even less temperate than Maliciavelli.  But I certainly don't share his point of view; only one or two conclusions.  I do think we may need to examine the Vistula, and other north-flowing eastern waterways, for the full R1b1a2 story.  But that's about it; and the people involved were not Slavs or Poles or any of that modern stuff.  More like proto-Italo-Celts -- not that they knew that, at the time.

And I actually expect Jean M will have the last laugh about this, even burdened as she is with all those cows.

You can't blame the guy for Haplogroup Envy.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 04, 2012, 09:14:20 PM
Here (http://www.crumbleholme.plus.com/Beakerfolk/amesburyarcher/beakerfolkamesburyarcher.htm) is an interesting video on firing Beaker pots by a man in England who makes replicas of them.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: NealtheRed on May 04, 2012, 09:40:21 PM
Here (http://www.crumbleholme.plus.com/Beakerfolk/amesburyarcher/beakerfolkamesburyarcher.htm) is an interesting video on firing Beaker pots by a man in England who makes replicas of them.

When they are upside-down cooling, I can make out that definitive bell shape. I wonder if this fellow sells these things.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Matt Winters on May 04, 2012, 10:54:24 PM
It is, perhaps, the Chardonnay speaking (I live on the far left coast of the USA after all), but may I say how pleased and proud I am to be even tangentially connected to such a smart and passionate group as all of you?

The day may come when horribly degraded aDNA can be reconstituted from many more archaeological sites. At the very least, we may now expect far more detailed and routine testing of ancient remains. It may sometimes seem we’ve been at this a long time, but this really is just the first crack of dawn in new era of understanding our ancestral origins. It’s tremendously fun and exciting.

Zum Wohl!



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Heber on May 05, 2012, 01:46:45 AM
it wouldn't hurt to ask.
If the answer is no..perhaps they would consider it when testing future samples?

I am working that angle with a few of the authors. Usually the answer is 'no', but let's see.

This may seem like a naive question, but once an aDNA sample is extracted and identified as R1b+ and U106-, can it then be incubated, alplified and multiplied so that it is suitable for commercial testing. Dr. Jim Wilson has assembled an assey of 200Y and 200 mtDNA SNPs representative of a European population for a moderate price.
If it is a question of the ~$300 testing fee, I will raid the piggybank to fund it.
Im sure Dr Wilson would cooperate with a non standard sample in the interests of Science, even if it produces a lot of no calls.


"We use Illumina technology to read (genotype) the DNA - with a custom-designed chip. This contains nearly 200 mtDNA markers and over 200 Y chromosome markers, all chosen to be non-redundant and informative in Europeans (although there is representation of non-European variation on the chip as well). Lab work is carried out at the Queen Mary University of London Genome Centre. Our tests do not use short tandem repeats or STRs."


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Arch Y. on May 05, 2012, 02:17:25 AM
Here (http://www.crumbleholme.plus.com/Beakerfolk/amesburyarcher/beakerfolkamesburyarcher.htm) is an interesting video on firing Beaker pots by a man in England who makes replicas of them.

I wonder if he could replicate the mead too.

Arch


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: secherbernard on May 05, 2012, 02:55:05 AM
Here (http://www.crumbleholme.plus.com/Beakerfolk/amesburyarcher/beakerfolkamesburyarcher.htm) is an interesting video on firing Beaker pots by a man in England who makes replicas of them.
I'm not sure this is the right way because his beakers are charred in some places


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 05, 2012, 04:34:49 AM
I do think we may need to examine the Vistula, and other north-flowing eastern waterways, for the full R1b1a2 story.

As you know, Bell Beaker sites have been found on the upper and lower Vistula. They are marked on my map of Bell Beaker distribution. Those Bell Beaker makers really got about! The distribution makes it obvious that they used river as well as coastal transport.

As for the direction of movement - I can see that people are having a lot of fun here letting their imaginations rip. While I wouldn't want to put too much of a damper on that buzz, which might throw up something interesting and unexpected, we are constrained by a huge body of evidence. That evidence is not restricted to dating the first bell-shaped pot.

In fact pottery is not important in working out where BB people (DNA) came from. Copper-working and anthropomorphic stelae track them from the steppe up the Danube. From there one group (who, helpfully for us,  carried on erecting stelae) moved across northern Italy and on to Portugal, spreading out from there to Southern France, Brittany, Spain and the British Isles. Another group carried on up the Danube, and from there up the Rhine and rivers to the east, arriving eventually in the British Isles and Scandinavia.

Whatever queries one may have about dating, there is no doubt whatsoever that BB went south to north in broad outline. The latest dates are in Denmark. No-one thinks that BB started in the British Isles or Poland.

The pottery comes in various styles, which show the various routes it took.

See http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/images/BellBeakerGroups.jpg


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 05, 2012, 06:19:28 AM
Here (http://www.crumbleholme.plus.com/Beakerfolk/amesburyarcher/beakerfolkamesburyarcher.htm) is an interesting video on firing Beaker pots by a man in England who makes replicas of them.

I wonder if he could replicate the mead too.

Arch

I have made my own mead on a number of occasions (I make beer and wine at home, as well). Mead is really easy to make.

I'd like to have some of those Beaker cups to drink it in, that's for sure.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 05, 2012, 06:20:40 AM
Here (http://www.crumbleholme.plus.com/Beakerfolk/amesburyarcher/beakerfolkamesburyarcher.htm) is an interesting video on firing Beaker pots by a man in England who makes replicas of them.
I'm not sure this is the right way because his beakers are charred in some places

I think that is probably just ash and soot and cleans off pretty easily.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 05, 2012, 06:26:05 AM
I do think we may need to examine the Vistula, and other north-flowing eastern waterways, for the full R1b1a2 story.

As you know, Bell Beaker sites have been found on the upper and lower Vistula. They are marked on my map of Bell Beaker distribution. Those Bell Beaker makers really got about! The distribution makes it obvious that they used river as well as coastal transport.

As for the direction of movement - I can see that people are having a lot of fun here letting their imaginations rip. While I wouldn't want to put too much of a damper on that buzz, which might throw up something interesting and unexpected, we are constrained by a huge body of evidence. That evidence is not restricted to dating the first bell-shaped pot.

In fact pottery is not important in working out where BB people (DNA) came from. Copper-working and anthropomorphic stelae track them from the steppe up the Danube. From there one group (who, helpfully for us,  carried on erecting stelae) moved across northern Italy and on to Portugal, spreading out from there to Southern France, Brittany, Spain and the British Isles. Another group carried on up the Danube, and from there up the Rhine and rivers to the east, arriving eventually in the British Isles and Scandinavia.

Whatever queries one may have about dating, there is no doubt whatsoever that BB went south to north in broad outline. The latest dates are in Denmark. No-one thinks that BB started in the British Isles or Poland.

The pottery comes in various styles, which show the various routes it took.

See http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/images/BellBeakerGroups.jpg

It occurs to me that, if these two Beaker males were R-L11 rather than R-P312, then it is possible that the Beaker Folk fostered both P312 and U106.

We know that one of them was U106-, but that doesn't automatically mean he was P312+.

Don't get me wrong, I would be overjoyed if he did turn out to be P312+ (I would probably pass out in ecstasy if he were L21+), but all we really know is that he was M269+ U106-.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 05, 2012, 06:31:21 AM
Here (http://www.crumbleholme.plus.com/Beakerfolk/amesburyarcher/beakerfolkamesburyarcher.htm) is an interesting video on firing Beaker pots by a man in England who makes replicas of them.

When they are upside-down cooling, I can make out that definitive bell shape. I wonder if this fellow sells these things.

You read my mind. That is the real reason I googled "Beaker pots for sale".

I did find one beaker for sale here (http://www.spiritofold.co.uk/prehistoric/index.htm), but - caramba! - it's expensive.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 05, 2012, 06:48:13 AM
It is, perhaps, the Chardonnay speaking (I live on the far left coast of the USA after all), but may I say how pleased and proud I am to be even tangentially connected to such a smart and passionate group as all of you?

The day may come when horribly degraded aDNA can be reconstituted from many more archaeological sites. At the very least, we may now expect far more detailed and routine testing of ancient remains. It may sometimes seem we’ve been at this a long time, but this really is just the first crack of dawn in new era of understanding our ancestral origins. It’s tremendously fun and exciting.

Zum Wohl!



I really and totally agree.

It would be difficult to express just how happy this discovery has made me and just what kind of tremendous good news it is.

What is next, I wonder.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 05, 2012, 06:51:46 AM
It occurs to me that, if these two Beaker males were R-L11 rather than R-P312, then it is possible that the Beaker Folk fostered both P312 and U106.

I have included the possibility that L11 gave birth to U106 somewhere in Northern Europe. See Germanic genetic markers (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/germani.shtml#genetic).

Quote
R1b-U106 has its peak in northern Europe and a distribution which correlates fairly well with Germanic speakers, past and present. A sprinkling of men within that distribution carry the parent clade R1b-L11*, opening up the possibility that R1b-U106 arose from R1b-L11* in Northern Europe. However its density of distribution there suggests that it arose at the head of a wave of advance into Northern Europe.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Arwunbee on May 05, 2012, 07:22:23 AM
Both R1b fellows were S21-


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: chris1 on May 05, 2012, 07:37:51 AM
It is, perhaps, the Chardonnay speaking (I live on the far left coast of the USA after all), but may I say how pleased and proud I am to be even tangentially connected to such a smart and passionate group as all of you?

The day may come when horribly degraded aDNA can be reconstituted from many more archaeological sites. At the very least, we may now expect far more detailed and routine testing of ancient remains. It may sometimes seem we’ve been at this a long time, but this really is just the first crack of dawn in new era of understanding our ancestral origins. It’s tremendously fun and exciting.

Zum Wohl!



I really and totally agree.

It would be difficult to express just how happy this discovery has made me and just what kind of tremendous good news it is.

What is next, I wonder.
It's definitely fascinating news. I live in an area where the Beaker people's howes (burial mounds) and rock art are still dotted all over the moor tops and ridges. They've looked down on the villages in the dales for thousands of years. It's nice to know they might have been our distant ancestors.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 05, 2012, 08:15:44 AM
I checked all the mtDNA of the paper and I think having demonstrated their origin in Portugal, at the origin of Bell Beaker, except U5a1, believing to what the paper said and what others said, Jean Manco first. But checking the mutations on SMGF I have easily found that there are about 400 people (European ones of course) with these mutations:

16256T
16270T
16399G.

I didn't believe that the asses were so many. I believed that only Maju in his blog could write similar foolishnesses.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 05, 2012, 08:19:28 AM
If I add the mutations in HVRII (73G and 263G) there are 1 American and two people from Iran.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 05, 2012, 08:25:54 AM
Taking for instance one of the Europeans with a rare surname, Klautke from Germany, he is:

16256T
16270T
16399G
73G
263G
315.1C


Good fun! But who gives a salary to these scholars?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 05, 2012, 08:34:29 AM
Perhaps they haven't found in modern samples 10873C? But there are also back mutations (above all post mortem from T to C), and these haplotypes are so numerous in Europe and are clearly linked with this U5a1!


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 05, 2012, 08:49:21 AM
Here (http://www.crumbleholme.plus.com/Beakerfolk/amesburyarcher/beakerfolkamesburyarcher.htm) is an interesting video on firing Beaker pots by a man in England who makes replicas of them.

I wonder if he could replicate the mead too.

Arch

I have made my own mead on a number of occasions (I make beer and wine at home, as well). Mead is really easy to make.

I'd like to have some of those Beaker cups to drink it in, that's for sure.

I was on the excavation that found the biggest beaker ever found in Europe.  It held abut 10 litres!


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: razyn on May 05, 2012, 09:02:15 AM

In fact pottery is not important in working out where BB people (DNA) came from. Copper-working and anthropomorphic stelae track them from the steppe up the Danube. From there one group (who, helpfully for us,  carried on erecting stelae) moved across northern Italy and on to Portugal, spreading out from there to Southern France, Brittany, Spain and the British Isles. Another group carried on up the Danube, and from there up the Rhine and rivers to the east, arriving eventually in the British Isles and Scandinavia.

Whatever queries one may have about dating, there is no doubt whatsoever that BB went south to north in broad outline. The latest dates are in Denmark. No-one thinks that BB started in the British Isles or Poland.

The pottery comes in various styles, which show the various routes it took.

I don't disagree with the broad outline part, or the pottery style part.  But if one agrees with the first paragraph quoted here, those stelae-erecting and copper-working eastern types most likely had R1bxxx in their gene pool when they arrived in Portugal (or wherever they modified the style of the pottery they already knew how to make).  If they had it (R1bxxx) then, they also had it when they were erecting stelae in the Isles, when they were searching for and trading in tin, when they were building the Dover boat, when they spread the Celto-Italic family of languages, domesticated the Pottock pony, introduced the Volga frog to French rivers and cuisine, etc.  Not all of their useful and innovative activities were centered on the Mediterranean; and the people (as distinguished from these specific pots) didn't originally spread from west to east.  It may well be that some of their later DNA mutations, pottery styles, inventions, and dialects did so.

Anyway, as others have pointed out, we now have a data point associating R1b1a2 with a particular Beaker (I don't know its style) in the upper Elbe watershed by 2500 BC.  That's better than we had a few days ago.  We can continue to speculate about where the several R1b downstream mutations occurred, until we actually know that.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 05, 2012, 09:31:46 AM
@ razyn

Yes that's exactly my view.  

I have spent more space on the Mediterranean route in my text only because that is the new idea which has not been spelled out before. So I have to go into the evidence more. The route along the Danube and down the Rhine is very well known and does not need to be proved to readers familiar with the general background. So it gets less column inches from me, but is very important obviously.

I should mention that no stelae were erected in Ireland or Britain that anyone has uncovered. The last one along that route is in the Channel Isles.

  


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 05, 2012, 09:49:30 AM

we now have a data point associating R1b1a2 with a particular Beaker (I don't know its style) in the upper Elbe watershed by 2500 BC. 

To be frank, the reason we have Bell Beaker DNA from Germany is because the Germany economy is so strong. Even in the middle of recession it seems they are willing to spend the cash on aDNA. Some countries are just not going to think about it. You might think that Britain would be willing, but British politicians are acting like we are on the brink of starvation. I'm placing my faith in the hefty research grant that Ron Pinhasi of UCC (http://www.ucc.ie/en/DepartmentsCentresandUnits/Archaeology/Staff/DrRonPinhasi111/) landed - at least to get more Neolithic aDNA.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 05, 2012, 10:05:03 AM
But, if I am not wrong, it seems that 10873C is the rCRS. What are saying these scholars?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: eochaidh on May 05, 2012, 12:23:03 PM
If I add the mutations in HVRII (73G and 263G) there are 1 American and two people from Iran.

 I have those HVRII 73G and 263G mutations. My mtDNA line traces back through my Quebec born mother to Francoise Arguin, b. 1697, Camaret-Sur-Mer, Cournouailles, Bretagne, France.

But I'm T2g. It seems very rare, but I have seen it in Iran.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 05, 2012, 12:51:00 PM
Both R1b fellows were S21-

You're right. They just couldn't get the one from Grave 8 confirmed for M269.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 05, 2012, 01:06:57 PM
Here (http://www.crumbleholme.plus.com/Beakerfolk/amesburyarcher/beakerfolkamesburyarcher.htm) is an interesting video on firing Beaker pots by a man in England who makes replicas of them.

I wonder if he could replicate the mead too.

Arch

I have made my own mead on a number of occasions (I make beer and wine at home, as well). Mead is really easy to make.

I'd like to have some of those Beaker cups to drink it in, that's for sure.

I was on the excavation that found the biggest beaker ever found in Europe.  It held abut 10 litres!

Hopefully, that was the communal beaker! Otherwise, you all should have recovered a fully intact and pickled liver among the remains there.

I'm working on pickling mine. ;-)


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 05, 2012, 01:50:36 PM
These videos (http://www.videopediaworld.com/video/44732/Indo-Europeans-in-Northern-Europe-12) were pulled from YouTube over copyright issues, so they might not last long here either, but they're pretty cool.

Part 2 (http://www.videopediaworld.com/video/44822/Indo-Europeans-in-Northern-Europe-22).

Jean M first pointed these out a couple of years ago, back when they were on YouTube, as I recall.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 09, 2012, 09:31:37 AM
Absolutely great news! (In fact it was news in January,  but I only just picked it up, courtesy of Dienekes.)

https://sites.google.com/site/beanresearchnetwork/description-of-research-projects
Quote
1 PhD position: Orienting Y-chromosome lineages in space and time
Trinity College Dublin, Ireland, Smurfit Institute; Dan Bradley

There is a huge wealth of Y chromosome data from modern surveys using a standard reference panel of SNPs that are known to show strong geographical structure. Patterns observed using thousands of samples from Europe and the Near East have been subject to very strong interpretations where, for example the spread of farmers into Europe have been cited as the origin of alternately, i) virtually all, and ii) only a minority of modern European Y chromosome lineages. The postulation of an association between specific SNP lineages and the Near Eastern Neolithic also has led to strong inference about migrations into North Africa at the dawn of agriculture. There is a clear need to produce time-stamped Y chromosome lineages to test and distinguish between these hypotheses.

Simply typing SNPs that have been ascertained using modern sampling gives a risk of missing vital patterns of variants in the past. One cannot assume that all past variants, or even major families of variants from thousands of years ago are represented today; indeed there are indications from other systems that sharp discontinuity from ancient to modern is possible. For this reason we propose to re-sequence the major non-repetitive regions of the Y chromosome in ancient samples. This will cover positions where SNPs have already been ascertained from modern samples, thus embedding these specimens in existing phylogenetic patterns. However, this will also uncover relationships that may be unobtainable from modern study but which may be critical in interpreting relationships among ancient groups.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 09, 2012, 10:32:44 AM
During the time of the R1b+ tested Bell Beaker samples (2,600–2,500 cal BC), Bell Beaker samples were already spread from central Europe to Portugal.

Given that, it wouldn't make sense that the three main sub-clades of P312 (U152, L21 and DF27) weren't well established close to their current high frequency areas.

Given that line of thinking, and the fact that the two samples are U106-, my guess is that these two samples are either DF27+ or U152+.

P.S. - do not fret my distant L21 relatives, I fully expect that the Amesbury Archer is L21+

Anyone else care to speculate?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 09, 2012, 11:07:34 AM
P.S. - do not fret my distant L21 relatives, I fully expect that the Amesbury Archer is L21+
Anyone else care to speculate?
We all know that Italy has a few R-L21, but, in my theory of the Italian refugium, I have always said that we couldn't exclude that already R-L21 was formed in Italy and we have the case of Argiedude, with his rare DYS19=10 and others, but also (probably) Soncina, who should be tested for this SNP etc., then, if the Amesbury Archer were R-L21, coming probably from the Alps, it should be a relative of Argiedude or Soncina.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 09, 2012, 05:38:55 PM
During the time of the R1b+ tested Bell Beaker samples (2,600–2,500 cal BC), Bell Beaker samples were already spread from central Europe to Portugal.

Given that, it wouldn't make sense that the three main sub-clades of P312 (U152, L21 and DF27) weren't well established close to their current high frequency areas.

Given that line of thinking, and the fact that the two samples are U106-, my guess is that these two samples are either DF27+ or U152+.

P.S. - do not fret my distant L21 relatives, I fully expect that the Amesbury Archer is L21+

Anyone else care to speculate?

I reckon they were L11*.  L11* lines seem to have headed in that direction with U106 probably appearing among those who reached the Baltic.  Its also so early that its touch and go whether P312, L21, U156 etc had even come into existence if the variance calculations central dates are to be believed.  I think that far east they are even more likely to not be in the area where P312 may have been occurring or just about to occur so I think L11* is most likely.  Even L51* is not impossible given the little patch of it noted on RR map but I would tend to go for L11*. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: razyn on May 09, 2012, 06:30:05 PM
Since I still like DF27 as maritime (but maybe not Mediterranean), I'll go with his brother U152 for that area in 4500 BC.

If the DF27 boat guys turn out to have been mainly Danube river boat guys, I'll bid a fond farewell to the lower Vistula, and that whole prospect.  But not w/o a murmur.

And btw there are major differences in meaning, if not so much in pronunciation, between the Caucasus and caucuses.  Even in a US election year.  Hence, e.g., the second "a" in "Caucasian."


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 09, 2012, 07:39:00 PM
During the time of the R1b+ tested Bell Beaker samples (2,600–2,500 cal BC), Bell Beaker samples were already spread from central Europe to Portugal.

Given that, it wouldn't make sense that the three main sub-clades of P312 (U152, L21 and DF27) weren't well established close to their current high frequency areas.

Given that line of thinking, and the fact that the two samples are U106-, my guess is that these two samples are either DF27+ or U152+.

P.S. - do not fret my distant L21 relatives, I fully expect that the Amesbury Archer is L21+

Anyone else care to speculate?

I reckon they were L11*.  L11* lines seem to have headed in that direction with U106 probably appearing among those who reached the Baltic.  Its also so early that its touch and go whether P312, L21, U156 etc had even come into existence if the variance calculations central dates are to be believed.  I think that far east they are even more likely to not be in the area where P312 may have been occurring or just about to occur so I think L11* is most likely.  Even L51* is not impossible given the little patch of it noted on RR map but I would tend to go for L11*. 

That is what I think: either R-L11 or very early R-P312.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mark Jost on May 09, 2012, 07:59:09 PM
During the time of the R1b+ tested Bell Beaker samples (2,600–2,500 cal BC), Bell Beaker samples were already spread from central Europe to Portugal.

Given that, it wouldn't make sense that the three main sub-clades of P312 (U152, L21 and DF27) weren't well established close to their current high frequency areas.

Given that line of thinking, and the fact that the two samples are U106-, my guess is that these two samples are either DF27+ or U152+.

P.S. - do not fret my distant L21 relatives, I fully expect that the Amesbury Archer is L21+

Anyone else care to speculate?

I would have to agree with being most probable U152.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 10, 2012, 07:10:18 AM
During the time of the R1b+ tested Bell Beaker samples (2,600–2,500 cal BC), Bell Beaker samples were already spread from central Europe to Portugal.

Given that, it wouldn't make sense that the three main sub-clades of P312 (U152, L21 and DF27) weren't well established close to their current high frequency areas.

Given that line of thinking, and the fact that the two samples are U106-, my guess is that these two samples are either DF27+ or U152+.

P.S. - do not fret my distant L21 relatives, I fully expect that the Amesbury Archer is L21+

Anyone else care to speculate?

I would have to agree with being most probable U152.

Why?



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mark Jost on May 10, 2012, 09:11:13 PM


I would have to agree with being most probable U152.

Why?

I realize your have hashed this out many times here and other portals.

I am just considering some overall facts that the Amesbury Archer was estimated 4300 years old just around the spawn ages of U152, L21, and P312+. Radiocarbon dates show that the Archer lived between 2,400 and 2,200 years BC.

Checking MikeWs L11 Time line, the sigma's are pretty wide and extend before his estimated age.

We know he was born else where in central Europe, possibly very close to the Alps which is a strong U152 strong hold now. I guess if it was not R1b is could be G2's, I2's or E's all ended up in the isles?

MJost


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 10, 2012, 10:28:24 PM
During the time of the R1b+ tested Bell Beaker samples (2,600–2,500 cal BC), Bell Beaker samples were already spread from central Europe to Portugal.
Given that, it wouldn't make sense that the three main sub-clades of P312 (U152, L21 and DF27) weren't well established close to their current high frequency areas.
Given that line of thinking, and the fact that the two samples are U106-, my guess is that these two samples are either DF27+ or U152+.
P.S. - do not fret my distant L21 relatives, I fully expect that the Amesbury Archer is L21+

Anyone else care to speculate?
I don't know.  Even though I like to speculate, I like to have some reasoning behind it and in this case I really just have no idea.

I'm just chiming in with an opinion, primarily to let everyone know I find the Bell Beaker Y DNA results fascinating.  I don't find them surprising in the least. I would have been surprised if there weren't a good sized percentage of Bell Beaker paternal lineages that weren't R1b.

That being said, I have no idea what subclade of R1b these guys were.  I'm not sure it is that important what subclade of R1b these guys were.  Here's why - Let's say they were L21+.... that's no reason to think they were the ancestors of all L21 that took over the British Isles or that made incursions into the Aquitanians. They may have been L21** folks that died out.

Well, anyway, that's about all I know on the topic so I'll go on to the more important.

I was on the excavation that found the biggest beaker ever found in Europe.  It held abut 10 litres!

That's very, very cool. My father grew up on a farm, wrestling with animals (particularly hogs) to make sure they got whatever dosage we thought they needed. I like growing stuff and working with the dirt so your calling is a very neat thing, indeed.

... Deal. I'll be fly fishing the Shenandoah in a few months, so if I see the keelboat, I'll know it's you!

My mother's grandather's lineage included a traveling Scots-Irish preacher who rode up and down the Shenandoah Valley from from Hagerstown to almost Gettysburg down to Holstein Country in Tennessee.  He even has a county named after him in Tennessee. It must be beautiful, but also sad that I know many died in the Civil War along these lines, including my own kinds, on both sides.

So, back to the Beakers... I imagine their greatest enemies were their own cousins. Those who proliferated left the fighting back home and took over from indigenous men who weren't ready for them, perhaps technologically, culturally and immunity-wise.  I'm not sure the Spanish explorers in Latin American are not a good "picture" looking backward in time for Western Europe.

I'm not saying that was good thing, just the way it was. Since I'm going off on tangents, I'll mention that Paleolithic (hunter-gatherer) type diets are working very well for me. It's only what you might expect out of the only member of the ape family who was carnivorous.  

What a scary bunch we must have been for everyone else!


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 11, 2012, 07:40:16 AM


I would have to agree with being most probable U152.

Why?

I realize your have hashed this out many times here and other portals.

I am just considering some overall facts that the Amesbury Archer was estimated 4300 years old just around the spawn ages of U152, L21, and P312+. Radiocarbon dates show that the Archer lived between 2,400 and 2,200 years BC.

Checking MikeWs L11 Time line, the sigma's are pretty wide and extend before his estimated age.

We know he was born else where in central Europe, possibly very close to the Alps which is a strong U152 strong hold now. I guess if it was not R1b is could be G2's, I2's or E's all ended up in the isles?

MJost

I think Rich meant the two R1bs from Kromsdorf rather than the Amesbury Archer. Their bodies date from 2500-2600 BC, which would put them pretty early for U152, L21, etc., although not impossible.

But, on the subject of the Archer, if you make him U152, then you have U152 arriving in Britain with the Beaker Folk during the early Bronze Age. That's early. How and when did L21 get there, then?

I don't think it matters all that much which y haplogroups prevail in the Alpine region now. We're talking about over four thousand years ago.

Time and more aDNA results will tell, but I don't think we will see much G2, etc., among the Beaker Folk. I could be wrong, but I think the Beaker Folk are going to turn out to be the primary vector for the spread of R1b into western Europe. Those other groups will be found mostly among the Neolithic inhabitants, as they have been already.

The odd thing about Beaker Folk and the P312 subclades is that the distribution of the former doesn't match the distribution of any single one of the latter. There are Beaker Folk sites in places with a lot of U152, and there are Beaker Folk sites in places without much if any U152 at all. There are Beaker Folk sites in places with a lot of L21, and Beaker Folk sites in places without much if any L21 at all, and so on.

I think the initial spread of the Beaker Folk may predate even the split of L11 into P312 and U106. It's possible both major branches and their early subclades are Beaker Folk phenomena.



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 11, 2012, 02:34:29 PM

I think Rich meant the two R1bs from Kromsdorf rather than the Amesbury Archer. Their bodies date from 2500-2600 BC, which would put them pretty early for U152, L21, etc., although not impossible.

But, on the subject of the Archer, if you make him U152, then you have U152 arriving in Britain with the Beaker Folk during the early Bronze Age. That's early. How and when did L21 get there, then?

I don't think it matters all that much which y haplogroups prevail in the Alpine region now. We're talking about over four thousand years ago.

Time and more aDNA results will tell, but I don't think we will see much G2, etc., among the Beaker Folk. I could be wrong, but I think the Beaker Folk are going to turn out to be the primary vector for the spread of R1b into western Europe. Those other groups will be found mostly among the Neolithic inhabitants, as they have been already.

The odd thing about Beaker Folk and the P312 subclades is that the distribution of the former doesn't match the distribution of any single one of the latter. There are Beaker Folk sites in places with a lot of U152, and there are Beaker Folk sites in places without much if any U152 at all. There are Beaker Folk sites in places with a lot of L21, and Beaker Folk sites in places without much if any L21 at all, and so on.

I think the initial spread of the Beaker Folk may predate even the split of L11 into P312 and U106. It's possible both major branches and their early subclades are Beaker Folk phenomena.


P312 matches extremely well with BB. Based on the affinities of certain regional BB groups, you can even start to make out the SNPs associated with them. Unfortunately the BB maps available on the internet are pretty much useless and one has to rely more on regional BB papers to get a good sense of true BB distribution.

The Brittany Region has the highest concentration of BB material finds in all of France. Given its linguistic affinities and the overwhelming amount of L21 in Britain and Ireland, I have no doubt that the BB from Brittany were already early branches of L21+.

As for the age of P312 subclades, I know they are very controversial, but using Ken N.'s interclade method, Mikeww got dates older than 3000 BC for L21 and I got the same thing for U152. I haven't seen any dating for DF27 or its subclade Z196, but I'm sure it's up there as well. We have to remember that BB pottery seems to have arisen from an existing population that started its big expansion during the Late Neolithic/Copper Age.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 11, 2012, 03:19:27 PM

I think Rich meant the two R1bs from Kromsdorf rather than the Amesbury Archer. Their bodies date from 2500-2600 BC, which would put them pretty early for U152, L21, etc., although not impossible.

But, on the subject of the Archer, if you make him U152, then you have U152 arriving in Britain with the Beaker Folk during the early Bronze Age. That's early. How and when did L21 get there, then?

I don't think it matters all that much which y haplogroups prevail in the Alpine region now. We're talking about over four thousand years ago.

Time and more aDNA results will tell, but I don't think we will see much G2, etc., among the Beaker Folk. I could be wrong, but I think the Beaker Folk are going to turn out to be the primary vector for the spread of R1b into western Europe. Those other groups will be found mostly among the Neolithic inhabitants, as they have been already.

The odd thing about Beaker Folk and the P312 subclades is that the distribution of the former doesn't match the distribution of any single one of the latter. There are Beaker Folk sites in places with a lot of U152, and there are Beaker Folk sites in places without much if any U152 at all. There are Beaker Folk sites in places with a lot of L21, and Beaker Folk sites in places without much if any L21 at all, and so on.

I think the initial spread of the Beaker Folk may predate even the split of L11 into P312 and U106. It's possible both major branches and their early subclades are Beaker Folk phenomena.


P312 matches extremely well with BB. Based on the affinities of certain regional BB groups, you can even start to make out the SNPs associated with them. Unfortunately the BB maps available on the internet are pretty much useless and one has to rely more on regional BB papers to get a good sense of true BB distribution.

The Brittany Region has the highest concentration of BB material finds in all of France. Given its linguistic affinities and the overwhelming amount of L21 in Britain and Ireland, I have no doubt that the BB from Brittany were already early branches of L21+.

As for the age of P312 subclades, I know they are very controversial, but using Ken N.'s interclade method, Mikeww got dates older than 3000 BC for L21 and I got the same thing for U152. I haven't seen any dating for DF27 or its subclade Z196, but I'm sure it's up there as well. We have to remember that BB pottery seems to have arisen from an existing population that started its big expansion during the Late Neolithic/Copper Age.

I did? I've tried to focus on the interclade ages and provide the error ranges. I don't remember what I might have had in very early iterations but my best shot at the interclade TMRCAs is in this summary chart that I did a couple of months ago based on thousands of 67 STR haplotypes.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/files/Haplogroup_Timeline_R-L11_Subclades.gif
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R-L11_Subclades_Timeline.gif

I've got the most likely age of the interclade P312 man who was MRCA for both U152 and L21 as being 2400 BC. In fact, I've got the interclade for U152 and Z196 as 2400 BC as well as the interclade for Z196 and L21 as being 2400 BC.  

I've got the P312 and U106 MRCA interclade man (who would have been L11*) as being only 2500 BC.

The 95% probability ranges (two sigma) in these cases goes up to 3000 BC.

I don't think any of these numbers necessarily hit the actual dates right on the nose.  They are all based on germ-line mutation rates that bring with them their own set of disagreements.  

I will say I think these L11 major subclades are all about the same age. Whether that is 3000 BC or 2000 BC, I don't know.  I realize it seems incredible that U152, P312, U106, L21, Z196's initial expansions were almost simultaneous, particularly given that DF27 isn't even factored in yet (between P312 and Z196)... but I'm not making this stuff up.

I guess alternative explanations are that STR saturation causes all of these to "get stuck" at about the same time.  However, other groups, like R-L23xL11, or other haplogroups in the E, J space, etc. don't "get stuck" on the same timeline so I don't think that is what's happening.

Another way to look at this is the modals for each of the subclades. There GD's are not far off each other so even though it may seem ridiculous to some, I think that about 2000BC we could've considered these guys of one clan or tribe that had spread like wildfire.
 
Trying to place the TMRCAs for L51, L23 and M269 into this is difficult to do.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 11, 2012, 03:27:41 PM

I think Rich meant the two R1bs from Kromsdorf rather than the Amesbury Archer. Their bodies date from 2500-2600 BC, which would put them pretty early for U152, L21, etc., although not impossible.

But, on the subject of the Archer, if you make him U152, then you have U152 arriving in Britain with the Beaker Folk during the early Bronze Age. That's early. How and when did L21 get there, then?

I don't think it matters all that much which y haplogroups prevail in the Alpine region now. We're talking about over four thousand years ago.

Time and more aDNA results will tell, but I don't think we will see much G2, etc., among the Beaker Folk. I could be wrong, but I think the Beaker Folk are going to turn out to be the primary vector for the spread of R1b into western Europe. Those other groups will be found mostly among the Neolithic inhabitants, as they have been already.

The odd thing about Beaker Folk and the P312 subclades is that the distribution of the former doesn't match the distribution of any single one of the latter. There are Beaker Folk sites in places with a lot of U152, and there are Beaker Folk sites in places without much if any U152 at all. There are Beaker Folk sites in places with a lot of L21, and Beaker Folk sites in places without much if any L21 at all, and so on.

I think the initial spread of the Beaker Folk may predate even the split of L11 into P312 and U106. It's possible both major branches and their early subclades are Beaker Folk phenomena.


P312 matches extremely well with BB. Based on the affinities of certain regional BB groups, you can even start to make out the SNPs associated with them. Unfortunately the BB maps available on the internet are pretty much useless and one has to rely more on regional BB papers to get a good sense of true BB distribution.

The Brittany Region has the highest concentration of BB material finds in all of France. Given its linguistic affinities and the overwhelming amount of L21 in Britain and Ireland, I have no doubt that the BB from Brittany were already early branches of L21+.

As for the age of P312 subclades, I know they are very controversial, but using Ken N.'s interclade method, Mikeww got dates older than 3000 BC for L21 and I got the same thing for U152. I haven't seen any dating for DF27 or its subclade Z196, but I'm sure it's up there as well. We have to remember that BB pottery seems to have arisen from an existing population that started its big expansion during the Late Neolithic/Copper Age.

I did? I've tried to focus on the interclade ages and provide the error ranges. I don't remember what I might have had in very early iterations but my best shot at the interclade TMRCAs is in this summary chart that I did a couple of months ago based on thousands of 67 STR haplotypes.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/files/Haplogroup_Timeline_R-L11_Subclades.gif

I've got the most likely age of the interclade P312 man who was MRCA for both U152 and L21 as being 2400 BC. In fact, I've got the interclade for U152 and Z196 as 2400 BC as well as the interclade for Z196 and L21 as being 2400 BC.  

I've got the P312 and U106 MRCA interclade man (who would have been L11*) as being only 2500 BC.

The 95% probability ranges (two sigma) in these cases goes up to 3000 BC.

I don't think any of these numbers necessarily hit the actual dates right on the nose.  They are all based on germ-line mutation rates that bring with them their own set of disagreements.  

I will say I think these L11 major subclades are all about the same age. Whether that is 3000 BC or 2000 BC, I don't know.  I realize it seems incredible that U152, P312, U106, L21, Z196's initial expansions were almost simultaneous, particularly given that DF27 isn't even factored in yet (between P312 and Z196)... but I'm not making this stuff up.

I guess alternative explanations are that STR saturation causes all of these to "get stuck" at about the same time.  However, other groups, like R-L23xL11, or other haplogroups in the E, J space, etc. don't "get stuck" on the same timeline so I don't think that is what's happening.

Another way to look at this is the modals for each of the subclades. There GD's are not far off each other so even though it may seem ridiculous to some, I think that about 2000BC we could've considered these guys of one clan or tribe that had spread like wildfire.
 

The oldest dates you posted here were 3,100 BC: http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10326.msg127011#msg127011 (http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10326.msg127011#msg127011)


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mark Jost on May 11, 2012, 03:30:23 PM
MikeW has Z196 in his L11 sheet posted in the Yahoo R1b-YDNA section files shows best as 1300BC.

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oFOtT6gIT63se7PkGllpaxfGq2UQ1s0bpGasLUQdAsm81CJvbRghAJYMtXN2uTdlGmDh-s0jWzRP39ttvD1b3-f4wXL4ig/Haplogroup_Timeline_R-L11_Subclades.gif
Ok mike posted this info.

Now the discussion has been on the origin of L21 in Southeastern France, correct?

I am a firm believer in cline type population movements. So what was present in SE France that would have produced the high variance of L21? And what was the path into these areas that L11 or P312 could have used into the area 3500-4000 ybp? We aleady know what Roman's saw and reported 2000 yrs ago.

We already know that the Rhône-Alpes is located in the east of France. To the north are the French regions of Bourgogne (Burgundy) and Franche-Comté, to the west it borders the region Auvergne, to the south it borders Languedoc-Roussillon and Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur. The east of the region contains the westernmost part of the Alps and borders Switzerland and Italy.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 11, 2012, 03:37:40 PM
The oldest dates you posted here were 3,100 BC: http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10326.msg127011#msg127011 (http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10326.msg127011#msg127011)

Sorry, for the confusion. I wasn't clear in that thread which was focused on L21.

Razyn answered this over there but those numbers were K years before present, not calendar date years.

Are these numbers,"before present"?
I think the Excel files, from which Mike has cut and pasted these data, have a header over that column that says "Kybp," meaning [4.4 (5.4 - 3.4), or whatever other values are there] thousand years before present.  Probably, the header just doesn't copy.

It is true that DF23 (where M222 sits) is quite distinctive and interclades between it and other L21 subclades seem to push L21's TMRCA back. My opinion is that is caused by a multi-step jump in 481 (or abberrant back-to-back mutations), but I don't know. This stuff isn't real precise.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 11, 2012, 09:16:20 PM
The oldest dates you posted here were 3,100 BC: http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10326.msg127011#msg127011 (http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10326.msg127011#msg127011)

Sorry, for the confusion. I wasn't clear in that thread which was focused on L21.

Razyn answered this over there but those numbers were K years before present, not calendar date years.

Are these numbers,"before present"?
I think the Excel files, from which Mike has cut and pasted these data, have a header over that column that says "Kybp," meaning [4.4 (5.4 - 3.4), or whatever other values are there] thousand years before present.  Probably, the header just doesn't copy.

It is true that DF23 (where M222 sits) is quite distinctive and interclades between it and other L21 subclades seem to push L21's TMRCA back. My opinion is that is caused by a multi-step jump in 481 (or abberrant back-to-back mutations), but I don't know. This stuff isn't real precise.

Sorry, I missed the KYBP part.

Either way, your graph does show interclades between U152, L21 and Z196 all being within the 3000-2800 BC time period, and we can expect the Z196 one to go higher with the inclusion of some DF27* folks in the future. We also know that the individual U152, L21 and Z196 coalescence dates are younger than the SNPs themselves because they only represent the successful lineages and do not take into account dead branches. The interclades may be for a common ancestor, but with the additional knowledge that the modals of U152, L21 and DF27 are identical, we can further deduce that their individual appearances was not far apart from each other. The point really is that 2500 BC is definitely not too old to be talking about U152, L21 and DF27 for these BB samples.

To follow my previous scenario - if the extremely dense BB finds in Brittany were L51* or L11* or P312* - not only would these lineages have had to have died out in order to have L21 come in and completely replace them, but the same would have to have happened simultaneously in Iberia, the British Isles, the Rhine, the Rhone, N. Italy, etc. To me, the likelihood of that scenario is highly unlikely.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 12, 2012, 06:38:23 AM
We still don't really know why certain P312 subclades were successful in certain areas and not in others. Yet somehow those subclades supplanted the clades of their ancestors all over Europe, since it is doubtful that true R-L11* or true R-P312* exists anywhere today.

So, I am not sure one can rightly argue that because Brittany is overwhelmingly L21+ today that the earliest Beaker Folk arriving there must have already been L21+ rather than P312*, or that because Italy is overwhelmingly U152+ today that the earliest Beaker Folk there must have already been U152+ rather than P312*.

I guess it all depends on where those subclades actually first arose and when. Unfortunately, we really don't know.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 12, 2012, 09:28:56 AM
We still don't really know why certain P312 subclades were successful in certain areas and not in others. Yet somehow those subclades supplanted the clades of their ancestors all over Europe, since it is doubtful that true R-L11* or true R-P312* exists anywhere today.

So, I am not sure one can rightly argue that because Brittany is overwhelmingly L21+ today that the earliest Beaker Folk arriving there must have already been L21+ rather than P312*, or that because Italy is overwhelmingly U152+ today that the earliest Beaker Folk there must have already been U152+ rather than P312*.

I guess it all depends on where those subclades actually first arose and when. Unfortunately, we really don't know.

I'm not arguing that the first BB in Brittany was L21+ just because L21 has high frequency there today. I am arguing that the BB finds there are so numerous, that it seems unlikely that P312* people created/used the BB material and then L21+ came on the scene later. The link is just too much to be a coincidence. Now, if we are saying that the first guy was P312* and his son was L21 and then all the rest of the generations were L21, that seems fine with me.

Speaking of L21 origin. In the FTDNA projects, we all know that the Palatine areas are heavily sampled. There is a small area to the south of Mainz on the west bank of the Rhine where L21 samples are heavily clustered, maybe even more so than U106 and U152. Has anyone looked at those samples for variance, downsteam SNPs, etc.?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 12, 2012, 10:29:13 AM
We still don't really know why certain P312 subclades were successful in certain areas and not in others. Yet somehow those subclades supplanted the clades of their ancestors all over Europe, since it is doubtful that true R-L11* or true R-P312* exists anywhere today.

So, I am not sure one can rightly argue that because Brittany is overwhelmingly L21+ today that the earliest Beaker Folk arriving there must have already been L21+ rather than P312*, or that because Italy is overwhelmingly U152+ today that the earliest Beaker Folk there must have already been U152+ rather than P312*.

I guess it all depends on where those subclades actually first arose and when. Unfortunately, we really don't know.

I'm not arguing that the first BB in Brittany was L21+ just because L21 has high frequency there today. I am arguing that the BB finds there are so numerous, that it seems unlikely that P312* people created/used the BB material and then L21+ came on the scene later. The link is just too much to be a coincidence. Now, if we are saying that the first guy was P312* and his son was L21 and then all the rest of the generations were L21, that seems fine with me.

Speaking of L21 origin. In the FTDNA projects, we all know that the Palatine areas are heavily sampled. There is a small area to the south of Mainz on the west bank of the Rhine where L21 samples are heavily clustered, maybe even more so than U106 and U152. Has anyone looked at those samples for variance, downsteam SNPs, etc.?

That was the first hotspot to emerge when L21 started testing continental folks.  I have noticed myself that if you compare the project maps L21 does exceed other clades in that hotspot.  I understand the area is oversampled due to migration from that area of Germany but that doesnt explain why L21 is overrepresented.  Whatever the cause, these results made L21 look very strong in the Rhineland which kind of fooled me into thinking it was higher in west-central Europe than other studies seem to indicate.  the other possibility is it is a small hotspot of L21 that is slightly isolated, perhaps a survivor from later waves of an off-shoot from the more Atlantic areas of the continent.  I understand that the variance is quite a bit lower in SW Germany than France but still fairly old/prehistoric. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mark Jost on May 12, 2012, 10:40:45 AM


Speaking of L21 origin. In the FTDNA projects, we all know that the Palatine areas are heavily sampled. There is a small area to the south of Mainz on the west bank of the Rhine where L21 samples are heavily clustered, maybe even more so than U106 and U152. Has anyone looked at those samples for variance, downsteam SNPs, etc.?
Looking at the Roman Empire Map has defined the area borders since then.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Roman_Empire_125.png

Patton used the ancient strategic gateway through Germania Superior to cross the Rhine south of Mainz, drive down the Danube towards Czechoslovakia and end the possibility of a Bavarian redoubt crossing the Alps in Austria when the war ended. Since them French and following the withdrawal of French forces from Mainz, the United States Army Europe occupied the military bases in Mainz. Resulting in subplanting of YDNA in the area?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 12, 2012, 06:22:18 PM


Speaking of L21 origin. In the FTDNA projects, we all know that the Palatine areas are heavily sampled. There is a small area to the south of Mainz on the west bank of the Rhine where L21 samples are heavily clustered, maybe even more so than U106 and U152. Has anyone looked at those samples for variance, downsteam SNPs, etc.?
Looking at the Roman Empire Map has defined the area borders since then.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Roman_Empire_125.png

Patton used the ancient strategic gateway through Germania Superior to cross the Rhine south of Mainz, drive down the Danube towards Czechoslovakia and end the possibility of a Bavarian redoubt crossing the Alps in Austria when the war ended. Since them French and following the withdrawal of French forces from Mainz, the United States Army Europe occupied the military bases in Mainz. Resulting in subplanting of YDNA in the area?

If that was the case then you would have all sort of matches which I have never heard of in terms of German L21.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 12, 2012, 06:51:32 PM


Speaking of L21 origin. In the FTDNA projects, we all know that the Palatine areas are heavily sampled. There is a small area to the south of Mainz on the west bank of the Rhine where L21 samples are heavily clustered, maybe even more so than U106 and U152. Has anyone looked at those samples for variance, downsteam SNPs, etc.?
Looking at the Roman Empire Map has defined the area borders since then.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Roman_Empire_125.png

Patton used the ancient strategic gateway through Germania Superior to cross the Rhine south of Mainz, drive down the Danube towards Czechoslovakia and end the possibility of a Bavarian redoubt crossing the Alps in Austria when the war ended. Since them French and following the withdrawal of French forces from Mainz, the United States Army Europe occupied the military bases in Mainz. Resulting in subplanting of YDNA in the area?

If that was the case then you would have all sort of matches which I have never heard of in terms of German L21.

Not only that, but some of our L21s with German ancestry are Americans whose families have been in this country quite some time, certainly since long before WWII.

"Patton's route", etc., is just another variation of the old "Traveling Salesman" scenario.

Why is it that L21 seems to get that scenario applied to it more than other y haplogroups?

It amazes me.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mark Jost on May 12, 2012, 07:35:32 PM
Steve, It Happens.

http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,1572678,00.html



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mark Jost on May 12, 2012, 07:43:25 PM
Also here. I dont know what percent father were L21 but I have to think a majority?

Post-war children section
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_children


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 12, 2012, 08:58:46 PM


Speaking of L21 origin. In the FTDNA projects, we all know that the Palatine areas are heavily sampled. There is a small area to the south of Mainz on the west bank of the Rhine where L21 samples are heavily clustered, maybe even more so than U106 and U152. Has anyone looked at those samples for variance, downsteam SNPs, etc.?
Looking at the Roman Empire Map has defined the area borders since then.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Roman_Empire_125.png

Patton used the ancient strategic gateway through Germania Superior to cross the Rhine south of Mainz, drive down the Danube towards Czechoslovakia and end the possibility of a Bavarian redoubt crossing the Alps in Austria when the war ended. Since them French and following the withdrawal of French forces from Mainz, the United States Army Europe occupied the military bases in Mainz. Resulting in subplanting of YDNA in the area?

If that was the case then you would have all sort of matches which I have never heard of in terms of German L21.

Not only that, but some of our L21s with German ancestry are Americans whose families have been in this country quite some time, certainly since long before WWII.

"Patton's route", etc., is just another variation of the old "Traveling Salesman" scenario.

Why is it that L21 seems to get that scenario applied to it more than other y haplogroups?

It amazes me.

I think it's a product of L21's testing success. More people test L21+ than probably all other R1b SNPs combined, so you get more diverse theories/opinions. On the bright side, it's better than being a part of some group that rarely gets a mention or a reply on any forum.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 12, 2012, 09:35:09 PM
Steve, It Happens.

http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,1572678,00.html



It didn't happen without a time machine in the case of people with old Pennsylvania Dutch or other German ancestry whose ancestors were in this country long long before WWII.

At least this is a new variation. Before it was always "Irish monks" or "Scottish merchants".

Well, none of our Germany category members lists an ancestor born in Germany in the immediate aftermath of WWII.



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 13, 2012, 03:58:43 PM
I was just reading back through the history of the beaker model for R1b and it seems to go back to spring 2008 on rootsweb when S116 was new and people like Ken were getting late variance dates for S116 and we were all getting our heads around the quick demise of the ice age western refugia.  This was around the time when beakers seemed like a good fit but I remember the initial variance dates were more like 1500BC so it still seemed problematic

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-06/1212580343

Reading through old rootsweb actually made me a bit nostalgic and reminded me of just how good a site is was but its not very active any more.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 13, 2012, 04:46:09 PM
I was just reading back through the history of the beaker model for R1b and it seems to go back to spring 2008 on rootsweb

Steve Rich posted somewhere that he saw it first on DNA Forums and gave the name of the chap who came up with it, but now I can't find that post. It was surely around before I arrived on DNA Forums (late 2008?), for I recall being impressed by Stevo's long thread on R1b being the other half of the Indo-European story. I wove that idea into the first version of Peopling of Europe in March 2009, if I recall rightly. I've always credited it to him.  


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 13, 2012, 05:24:18 PM
I was just reading back through the history of the beaker model for R1b and it seems to go back to spring 2008 on rootsweb

Steve posted somewhere that he saw it first on DNA Forums and gave the name of the chap who came up with it, but now I can't find that post. It was surely around before I arrived on DNA Forums (late 2008?), for I recall being impressed by Steve's long thread on R1b being the other half of the Indo-European story. I wove that idea into the first version of Peopling of Europe in March 2009, if I recall rightly. I've always credited it to him.  

Steve-you mean Rich?  Think it was Rich who first linked it to the centum-saetem thing to R1b-R1a division.  It actually amazing the spring if 2008 was such a breakrhough time.  I think so much happened because of S116 demolishing the old idea that M269* was really old and U152 and U106 much younger.  I think (although I cant remember exact details) the variance crunchers like Ken, Vince V, Tim Jansen etc had started to show how it was simply impossible for R1b to be pre-Neolithic because in relative terms that would have made I about 80000 years old.  I think it was the discovery of P312 allowed it to be crunched separately that showed how badly wrong the old model was.  I remember a post by Tim stating that was what convinced me around spring 2008.  Prior to that in 2007 if not earlier the one person who really saw this early was Ellen Levy who was like a lone voice. Initially though the variance dates being suggested were well post-beaker (think it was something like 1500BC) which clearly didnt seem right.  I think that was down to them being intraclade dates.  More recently the the dates using interclades just keep falling  on the beaker period.   Actually the whole period in the 1st half of 2008 was probably the biggest single group volte-face in this hobby and a lot of effort prior to this was pretty pointless and I think a lot of folks (me included) would have done some sort of mass deletion of old posts if the format on rootsweb allowed it :0)  Still the original dates being offered made me do a ton of reading into the Upper Palaeolithic period which I suppose is useful even if it was all kind of pointless in terms of R1b in the end.  


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 13, 2012, 05:50:00 PM
Steve-you mean Rich?   

Yes - sorry. Corrected.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 13, 2012, 06:03:42 PM
Steve Rich posted somewhere that he saw it first on DNA Forums and gave the name of the chap who came up with it, but now I can't find that post.

Found it! (I was looking on the wrong forum.)

Quote
Quote
The first person I ever recall making the Beaker Folk/R1b connection was a man named Rick Arnold. That was back in 2008 at the now-defunct dna-forums web site.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27508-Bell-Beakers-from-Germany-Y-haplogroup-R1b


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 13, 2012, 06:06:07 PM
I actually cant remember when I got into this hobby lol.  I think I first posted on rootsweb in 2006 but was lurking for a couple of years.  I got into the whole R1b thing donkeys years back and out of macro-interest and I got the book archaeolgenetics.  It wasnt for geneaological interest and I dont think I tested for anything until early 2008 a long time after I was first interested.  I was pleased it came up R1b though at the time then P312 then L21 etc.  I wonder how many people are around in the hobby who were posting on rootsweb when it took off 12 years ago.  


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 13, 2012, 06:08:32 PM
Looks like Rick Arnold actually had this idea back in 2006.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2006-10/1160236277

In this post 7 October 2006, he says :
Quote
This whole cline of R1b speaks Indo-European. Basque is the exception to this rule. It seems more parsimonious to argue that R1b brought Indo-European rather than had it imposed upon them all across W. Europe, with the single Basque exception. And if IE is as young as usually claimed, then this scenario, if supported, would seem to support the original post.

Elsewhere in the same thread Bell Beaker is specifically mentioned.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 13, 2012, 06:16:10 PM
Steve Rich posted somewhere that he saw it first on DNA Forums and gave the name of the chap who came up with it, but now I can't find that post.

Found it! (I was looking on the wrong forum.)

Quote
Quote
The first person I ever recall making the Beaker Folk/R1b connection was a man named Rick Arnold. That was back in 2008 at the now-defunct dna-forums web site.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27508-Bell-Beakers-from-Germany-Y-haplogroup-R1b

I always had mixed feelings about DNA forums and quit it a couple of times.  It was lively and easy to use but it always seemed to have a lot of hot heads popping up from time to time and IMO some more moderation was needed.  I think for a period a lot of the big guns on rootsweb didnt like the roughhouse aspect of DNA forums.  Rootsweb was drier but more civilised.  Now it just doesnt seem worth checking.   


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 13, 2012, 06:23:58 PM
Looks like Rick Arnold actually had this idea back in 2006.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2006-10/1160236277

In this post 7 October 2006, he says :
Quote
This whole cline of R1b speaks Indo-European. Basque is the exception to this rule. It seems more parsimonious to argue that R1b brought Indo-European rather than had it imposed upon them all across W. Europe, with the single Basque exception. And if IE is as young as usually claimed, then this scenario, if supported, would seem to support the original post.

Elsewhere in the same thread Bell Beaker is specifically mentioned.

Kudos to whoever that was because at that time it was gong against the grain.  The thread is way too big for me to look through.  The horror of Oppenheimers book!  That book actually was a major clue that the dating methods were wrong.  I think some of his clusters in Ireland were 4000 years older than the settlement of Ireland!  Also some of the obviously Viking movements from Scandinavia to NE Scotland came out Neolithic or Bronze Age.  His book really came out at a bad time and was pretty well disproved within months. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 13, 2012, 06:30:18 PM
Has anyone noticed there is a big gap between the first ever post on DNA rootsweb and the next posts?  Weird.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 14, 2012, 07:54:32 PM
Try this old thread (http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=2890&highlight=Indo-European) from September of 2006. I am "Stevo" over at FTDNA's forum, as I was at dna-forums.

I was the first one that I know of to suggest the R1b/IE connection. Back then it was just not done. We were Cro-Magnons back then.

Rick Arnold was the first one to suggest a connection to the Beaker Folk, as I recall.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 15, 2012, 04:26:11 AM
Thanks. I will adjust my acknowledgement. I don't give one specifically on Bell Beaker. That idea follows logically from the recognition of the overall correlation of R1a1a and R1b1b2 with IE languages, and the linguistic and archaeological links already deduced long before. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Arwunbee on May 15, 2012, 05:50:02 AM
Please also put in your acknowledgements that I was the first to suggest a link between M222 in Germany and randy Irish monks.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 15, 2012, 06:16:26 AM
Please also put in your acknowledgements that I was the first to suggest a link between M222 in Germany and randy Irish monks.
You will be the first candidate to the next IgNobel Prize.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 15, 2012, 06:52:08 AM
Please also put in your acknowledgements that I was the first to suggest a link between M222 in Germany and randy Irish monks.

Oh is it yourself Miles? I get confused with all these sock-puppets running around the place. I will not be hinting at any variety of sexual scandal associated with any variety of religion. As we know religious persons are never associated with sexual scandal by anyone who wants to get through book-signings without being covered in the ingredients for Spanish omelette.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 15, 2012, 08:30:06 AM
Try this old thread (http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=2890&highlight=Indo-European) from September of 2006. I am "Stevo" over at FTDNA's forum, as I was at dna-forums.

I was the first one that I know of to suggest the R1b/IE connection. Back then it was just not done. We were Cro-Magnons back then.

Rick Arnold was the first one to suggest a connection to the Beaker Folk, as I recall.
This is what I remember as well.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 15, 2012, 03:36:41 PM
Also kudos to the people like Mike and Ken whose interclade methods have been coming up with beaker period dates and now seem to being vindicated by the ancient DNA.  OK one sample is one sample (which goes for Corded Ware and R1a too) but the variance methods do seem to be getting vindicated and people who thought they were miles out, worthless and others who thought they were a little bit out (including me at times) seem to have been wrong to doubt.

The challenge now is to bring better focus into the M269-L23-L51-L11* sequence.  Somewhere in there must be the detail of the origins of these beaker R1b lines. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 18, 2012, 09:18:04 AM
Some bad news regarding the German R1b+ BB samples: They have exhausted the DNA and therefore do not have the possibility to test for L23, L11, U152, L21, DF27.

It would be good for future BB studies to start with M269 and test downstream from there.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 18, 2012, 09:46:54 AM
.....Either way, your graph does show interclades between U152, L21 and Z196 all being within the 3000-2800 BC time period, and we can expect the Z196 one to go higher with the inclusion of some DF27* folks in the future.
This it is also possible that the inclusion of DF27* folks with its Z196 subclade will not make DF27 look significantly older than Z196.  Z196's extant branching may be very diverse. In other words, enough diverse branches of the Z196 branches may have survived to give a representative estimate of age. DF27 just may not be that much older. We don't know.

We also know that the individual U152, L21 and Z196 coalescence dates are younger than the SNPs themselves because they only represent the successful lineages and do not take into account dead branches. The interclades may be for a common ancestor, but with the additional knowledge that the modals of U152, L21 and DF27 are identical, we can further deduce that their individual appearances was not far apart from each other. The point really is that 2500 BC is definitely not too old to be talking about U152, L21 and DF27 for these BB samples.
 
I absolutely agree.

To follow my previous scenario - if the extremely dense BB finds in Brittany were L51* or L11* or P312* - not only would these lineages have had to have died out in order to have L21 come in and completely replace them, but the same would have to have happened simultaneously in Iberia, the British Isles, the Rhine, the Rhone, N. Italy, etc. To me, the likelihood of that scenario is highly unlikely.
I don't know, but I tend to agree that L21 and his L51*, L11*, P312* cousins probably had similar technological and cultural practices as well as biological similarities, therefore we have no reason to think L21 could come in later and replace his cousins.

Let me argue the other side, though.  I could see the possibility of a scenario similar to the arrival of Europeans in parts of the New World.  Early explorers, hunters, trappers, etc. may have come in and intermarried with natives but not significantly changed the existing New World cultural practices and technologies. Later, a full wave of settlers may have come and truly colonized the new territories, truly changing the culture and changing the population structure.  This could have happened with some forms of L51*, L11*, P312* leading the way but essentially being swamped by the colonizing L21 led folks.

This alternative is possible, but I tend to think that didn't happen with L21 (coming later) in the British Isles. I lean towards Richard Rocca's view because L21's age is not that different than P312's or even L11's in Europe.  The first wave of R1b incomers that made a lasting impact probably included L21.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 18, 2012, 09:50:29 AM
Some bad news regarding the German R1b+ BB samples: They have exhausted the DNA and therefore do not have the possibility to test for L23, L11, U152, L21, DF27.

It would be good for future BB studies to start with M269 and test downstream from there.
Wow!  I would have thought if I was dealing with something so perishable or in short supply I would have held off doing anything until I figured out how to do it all or leave open the door for comprehensive testing.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 18, 2012, 09:57:04 AM
Some bad news regarding the German R1b+ BB samples: They have exhausted the DNA and therefore do not have the possibility to test for L23, L11, U152, L21, DF27.

It would be good for future BB studies to start with M269 and test downstream from there.
Wow!  I would have thought if I was dealing with something so perishable or in short supply I would have held off doing anything until I figured out how to do or leave open the door for comprehensive testing.

Fortunately there are other teams in Europe looking to do BB aDNA extraction.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 18, 2012, 10:00:21 AM
Let me argue the other side, though.  I could see the possibility of a scenario similar to the arrival of Europeans in parts of the New World.  Early explorers, hunters, trappers, etc. may have come in and intermarried with natives but not significantly changed the existing New World cultural practices and technologies. Later, a full wave of settlers may have come and truly colonized the new territories, truly changing the culture and changing the population structure.  This could have happened with some forms of L51*, L11*, P312* leading the way but essentially being swamped by the colonizing L21 led folks.

An excellent analogy, though in the case of the Copper Age we need to think in terms of much smaller numbers. In the Surfing hypothesis, L21 gained by being at the head of the wave of advance, where the number migrating is smallest. Multiplication took place at the destination end. Either way I agree that L21 must have been in the Copper Age sweep across France and the British Isles.



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 18, 2012, 11:33:26 AM
.....Either way, your graph does show interclades between U152, L21 and Z196 all being within the 3000-2800 BC time period, and we can expect the Z196 one to go higher with the inclusion of some DF27* folks in the future.
This it is also possible that the inclusion of DF27* folks with its Z196 subclade will not make DF27 look significantly older than Z196.  Z196's extant branching may be very diverse. In other words, enough diverse branches of the Z196 branches may have survived to give a representative estimate of age. DF27 just may not be that much older. We don't know.

We also know that the individual U152, L21 and Z196 coalescence dates are younger than the SNPs themselves because they only represent the successful lineages and do not take into account dead branches. The interclades may be for a common ancestor, but with the additional knowledge that the modals of U152, L21 and DF27 are identical, we can further deduce that their individual appearances was not far apart from each other. The point really is that 2500 BC is definitely not too old to be talking about U152, L21 and DF27 for these BB samples.
 
I absolutely agree.

To follow my previous scenario - if the extremely dense BB finds in Brittany were L51* or L11* or P312* - not only would these lineages have had to have died out in order to have L21 come in and completely replace them, but the same would have to have happened simultaneously in Iberia, the British Isles, the Rhine, the Rhone, N. Italy, etc. To me, the likelihood of that scenario is highly unlikely.
I don't know, but I tend to agree that L21 and his L51*, L11*, P312* cousins probably had similar technological and cultural practices as well as biological similarities, therefore we have no reason to think L21 could come in later and replace his cousins.

Let me argue the other side, though.  I could see the possibility of a scenario similar to the arrival of Europeans in parts of the New World.  Early explorers, hunters, trappers, etc. may have come in and intermarried with natives but not significantly changed the existing New World cultural practices and technologies. Later, a full wave of settlers may have come and truly colonized the new territories, truly changing the culture and changing the population structure.  This could have happened with some forms of L51*, L11*, P312* leading the way but essentially being swamped by the colonizing L21 led folks.

This alternative is possible, but I tend to think that didn't happen with L21 (coming later) in the British Isles. I lean towards Richard Rocca's view because L21's age is not that different than P312's or even L11's in Europe.  The first wave of R1b incomers that made a lasting impact probably included L21.

I would agree with that and that is what I was weighing up on the L51* thread.  I think the constant fission of lineages on the move would not only lose minority elements but create a string of founder effects at the head of the wave.  I totally agree that by the time P312 was reaching areas where a downstream clade like L21 was very dominant they must have already enterted the area in that kind of proportion. 

The way I look at it the section of the spread of M269 in the bell beaker zone probably commenced with a group with some L23* and L51* and L11* may well have been happening during the move too.  I would tend to think then that by the time th Rhone was reached that we had a fission that led to a group with only a small amount of L23* and L51* and L11* and P312 took off somewhere around the mouth of the Rhone or adjacent.  From there I imagine that P312* really took off accompanied by small amounts of upstream clades like L51* and L11* and set off in all directions. Subtle differences in location and direction may have meant that U152 expanded in the Alpine and Italian direction while another sailed west for Iberia.  Its extremely tempting to see L21 as having moved as P312* up the upper Loire with L21* occurring there and heading mainly up that route in a small group whose further fission meant it was very L21* rich.  I think you can see the effect of fission or founder effects in the limited distribution of L51* which appears to have ceased to be a factor that can be measured even in a large sample by around 2600BC when you compare its spread and beaker spread/dating.  Of course the pattern wasnt all set in one phase but I think it is likely that the strong regionalisation of clades like L21, U152 etc indicates that a lot of the basic bedrock of the pattern was set in an early phase.  If that is the case, more modest distances of movements (which may have been common) to and fro between area may not be detectable at that level of resolution.  I would imagine short hope exchange of genes would have been common and large leaps less so.  You would think that in a patriarchal society that males would do less friendly movement but the later Celtic practices of fosterage, warriors as dowrys coming with royal brides, traders being welcomed etc would have created at least some male gene flow too.  I also dont think an exploratory phase can be ruled out but we dont really need to cite that to explain L51* distribution other than the south Ulster blob because the distribution is very similar to that of early beaker in general and could have been people mixed in with L11 folks.   


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 18, 2012, 11:47:49 AM
I dont know if this is right but I also would imagine the descrepancy between interclade dates for P312 and the intraclade dates could partly be due to a settling in period when the lineages were still a small minority and obviously lines could die out relativley easily.  Perhaps after a number of centuries the size of the P312 clade populations grew to the point that lineage loss would not have such a dramatic effect on intraclade dates.  I think we can see in the continuation of aspects of the pre-beaker traditions in the ritual sphere (even at Stonehenge) that there was a period when beaker type culture and lineages were a factor but not the only factor in the population.  I call this delayed hegemony where the real impact and ownershipof resources that gave unlimited growth may have been delayed a few centuries as their culture eclipsed the pre-beaker one.  You can see strong hints of this in Ireland where it was only a couple of centuries after the beaker arrival c. 2500-2400BC that classic beaker type single burial traditions become dominant around the food vessel period (which despite the pot change was very beaker orientated and apparently beaker in human phenotypes) c. 2200BC.  Prior to that you had a more patchy spread of beaker period Wedge tombs in key areas for metal orientated and trading people and incorporation of beaker elements within pre-beaker type cremations with token deposits in other area of Ireland.   


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: jerome72 on May 18, 2012, 11:48:41 PM
And if both German  was HT35!
 That would be proof that the Beaker is not responsible for the distribution of R1b in Western Europe!
 For me, this discovery proves nothing!
 Sorry!


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 19, 2012, 01:27:24 AM
And if both German  was HT35!
 That would be proof that the Beaker is not responsible for the distribution of R1b in Western Europe!
 For me, this discovery proves nothing!
 Sorry!

I don't think anything has been proven other than we now know that R-M269 was among at least some elements of Bell Beakers.

We also know that R-M269 has NOT been found yet among at early Neolithic sites, although other clades (like Hg G) have. Neither has R-M343 (R1B) M269- been found in aDNA.

If the the Beaker aDNA in Germany was Ht35, that proves nothing as well.  We know from today's distribution that L11- types of R-M269 are found scattered across Europe along with with the predominate L11+ types.

However, I think we have to note there is the correlation of TMRCA dating for R-M269 L11 subclades with the finding of R-M269 (unknown types) Bell Beaker aDNA. This overlaps with at least parts of the Bell Beaker era.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 19, 2012, 08:07:42 AM
And if both German  was HT35!
 That would be proof that the Beaker is not responsible for the distribution of R1b in Western Europe!
 For me, this discovery proves nothing!
 Sorry!

I dont follow your logic.  It is entirely possible that the first beaker people were a mix of L23*, L51*, L11* and the earliest downstream clades.  The more downstream clades would not intitally have been predominant.  Around the time they arose (perhaps 2600BC) they would initially have been one guy in an L51* lineage.  The same would be true earlier.  The first L51* guy (I believe the variance for L51* was calculated about 2800BCish) would have been one guy in an L23* lineage.  The German beaker people whose ancient DNA was recovered was at a time c. 2500-2600BC when it could have been L23*, L51*, L11*, P312 and even perhaps a very early downstream clade.  However the variance map of L23* would suggest German L23* is not that old so I would almost rule that out.  L51* is mainly western and southern and only has one little outlier blob in the Carpathians in terms of distribution (again looking for ore??) but there is none in Germany on RR's map.  I think the most likely clade for the German beakers recently tested as M269 was L11* or P312* or even U152*.  That is my opinon based on distribution, variance, likely direction of origin etc. 

L21 clearly also originated from P312* (SE France??) and surely spread up the Loire from somewhere near its source (perhaps into the Seine too).  From the Loire mouth it would have spread into NW France, the isles and also down along the Vendee and to the north coasts close to the Pyrenees.  It seems to have had some control of the routes of Atlantic France (and the neighbouring Spanish Basque shores) and the isles.  I suspect it later reached back into France too using the same rivers and coasts.  I think L21 had itself in a rather nice niche in beaker terms as it had all that coast, control of Armorica, western Britain, Ireland, some of the Pyrenness which all were ore-rich.  IMO the L21 was in charge of one of the most privillaged parts of the beaker network.  The other non-L21 area of similar desirability - Atlantic Iberia and Alps/Central Europe were probably controlled by others although I do imagine there was some exchange.  In later times, L21 would have been a major player in the Atlantic Bronze Age networks although this also included Atlantic Iberia where it seems to me that L21 would have been rare and probably 'blow-ins' from further north.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 19, 2012, 11:37:29 AM
Of course you are free to like and to write novels. Also Bryan Sykes wrote The seven daughters of Eve. But what will you write when a R-something is found 7000 years old or more in Europe and I bet in Tuscany/Liguria above all?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 19, 2012, 12:43:46 PM
Of course you are free to like and to write novels. Also Bryan Sykes wrote The seven daughters of Eve. But what will you write when a R-something is found 7000 years old or more in Europe and I bet in Tuscany/Liguria above all?

I wouldnt be surprised if some M269* or L23* around 7000 years old did exist in Italy.  If M269* or L23* was somewhere like the Balkans or the east Med around then then it would almost be weird if some didnt get there.  Although I dont believe it originated in Italy, Italy might well have been it first location in western Europe (in cold war terms) .  There is clearly some place between Italy and the Black Sea where R1b lived in a pre-beaker culture, perhaps a sequence of cultures. In fact I half expect some day that the oldest beaker dates may turn up in Italy or the Adriatic Balkans.  Muller and Willigen did broadly date the whole of the West Med. from Iberia to Italy as the early phase of beaker and it has always made a lot more sense to me that Italy and SE France would be older than Iberia in terms of M269.  The L51* map would also imply to me that Italy and SE France were early, perhaps the earliest beaker zone even though Iberia is a popular choice.  The details are unknown and I think radiocarbon has not 100% resolved the origins and directions of beaker spread.  The L51* map and beaker distribution does seem to show the importance of Scicilly, Tuscany, Liguria, Sardinia, Corsica etc.  There is a lack of L51* east of Italy so its tempting for me to think L51* occurred among an L23* person in somewhere like Scicilly or Tuscany.  I had kind of wondered if the Golasecca culture was not a source of L23* at one time but the Ice Man is not (but he is only one man)   


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 19, 2012, 01:07:31 PM
About the lack of R-L51 in East Italy probably we should investigate more, because the first map of R-L51, done by Argiedude but with my contribute, found R-L51 above all in the Rhaetian Region (Alto Adige/Sud Tyrol) and I put many (probably) R-L51-s from SMGF to Ysearch from that zone.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: razyn on May 19, 2012, 02:05:29 PM
L21 clearly also originated from P312* (SE France??) and surely spread up the Loire from somewhere near its source (perhaps into the Seine too).  From the Loire mouth it would have spread into NW France, the isles and also down along the Vendee and to the north coasts close to the Pyrenees.  It seems to have had some control of the routes of Atlantic France (and the neighbouring Spanish Basque shores) and the isles.  I suspect it later reached back into France too using the same rivers and coasts.

I think, in the first quoted sentence, you meant down the Loire?  Because this looks almost as if you are beginning to agree with me; and we both know I'm crazy.

Apart from that one word, I think your arguments today (here, and in your next post) have been well constructed.  If I weren't crazy, I'd even agree.  It's mainly a question of whether or not the north side of Europe was plied by seagoing boats, ca. 3000 BC; and I'm not sure either of us really knows.  Even I don't think they would have been coracles, or made of bundled reeds.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: A.D. on May 19, 2012, 09:59:56 PM
It strike me that an average is not really that useful. We 're looking for a 'population explosion' or something that changed the proportion o f R1b--- in comparison to the rest of the population.  JeanM's lactose persistence idea it could  the rate influence the survival of populations. If it made even a small proportional difference in the infant mortality rate,  it could have an exponential effect on the genetic make up of the population.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: jerome72 on May 20, 2012, 09:59:30 AM
And if both German  was HT35!
 That would be proof that the Beaker is not responsible for the distribution of R1b in Western Europe!
 For me, this discovery proves nothing!
 Sorry!
I dont follow your logic. 

I do not know if Kromsdorf in Germany is considered to the cradle of European Beaker ..
But if not:

If we want to explain the strong presence of R1b in Western Europe, we are obliged to explain the strong presence of P312.
 If the campaniform is not P312, then no connection possible.
All P312 descended from one man: one who had the first mutation. I recall that P312- is very rare in Europe.

 On the other hand, if we discover  beaker P312:
A) Beaker ant P312 are related
B)  P312 was already present everywhere in Western Europe before the beaker, and thus find among campaniform P312 reflects the population at the time and is not specifically related to Beaker.

 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 20, 2012, 04:09:01 PM
And if both German  was HT35!
 That would be proof that the Beaker is not responsible for the distribution of R1b in Western Europe!
 For me, this discovery proves nothing!
 Sorry!
I dont follow your logic.  

I do not know if Kromsdorf in Germany is considered to the cradle of European Beaker ..
But if not:

If we want to explain the strong presence of R1b in Western Europe, we are obliged to explain the strong presence of P312.
 If the campaniform is not P312, then no connection possible.
All P312 descended from one man: one who had the first mutation. I recall that P312- is very rare in Europe.

 On the other hand, if we discover  beaker P312:
A) Beaker ant P312 are related
B)  P312 was already present everywhere in Western Europe before the beaker, and thus find among campaniform P312 reflects the population at the time and is not specifically related to Beaker.

 

If "B)" were true, we should expect to find some Neolithic P312 or L11 at least, but thus far none has turned up. In fact, this Kromsdorf Beaker R1b is the oldest R1b of any kind in Europe to date.

We don't have any ancient y-dna that indicates R1b was anywhere in Europe before the advent of the Beaker Folk. Maybe some will be discovered eventually, but it hasn't yet.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 21, 2012, 05:22:36 AM
I fully expect R1b to be found in Europe before Bell Beaker, but not all over Europe. I expect it in the Late Neolithic and early Copper Age of Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, Hungary and Portugal.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 21, 2012, 08:57:36 AM
I fully expect R1b to be found in Europe before Bell Beaker, but not all over Europe. I expect it in the Late Neolithic and early Copper Age of Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, Hungary and Portugal.
What archeological horizons are you associating the early (pre-Beaker) R1b with?



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 21, 2012, 09:18:52 AM
The same ones that I have been associating it with for many moons in my online text. I am guessing that it spread into Europe from Anatolia with dairy farming. Though that is not the only possibility, it fits with the findings so far. In that case it could have entered via the Hamangia Culture c. 5200 BC and moved from there into Cucuteni, then become swept up in the Yamnaya Horizon c. 3300 BC. From there I imagine it flowing up the Danube into the Carpathian Basin and then in two main routes from there, both of which eventually tie up in the Bell Beaker network. Meanwhile other flows move into the Corded Ware Culture.

Naturally it is a more complex picture than that. Some could have moved north earlier into the TRB. Then there are various other cultures influenced by Yamnaya. But it all mainly coalesces into the two huge Copper Age twins: Bell Beaker and Corded Ware. At least in Europe. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 21, 2012, 10:24:29 AM
The same ones that I have been associating it with for many moons in my online text. I am guessing that it spread into Europe from Anatolia with dairy farming. Though that is not the only possibility, it fits with the findings so far. In that case it could have entered via the Hamangia Culture c. 5200 BC and moved from there into Cucuteni, then become swept up in the Yamnaya Horizon c. 3300 BC. From there I imagine it flowing up the Danube into the Carpathian Basin and then in two main routes from there, both of which eventually tie up in the Bell Beaker network. Meanwhile other flows move into the Corded Ware Culture.

Naturally it is a more complex picture than that. Some could have moved north earlier into the TRB. Then there are various other cultures influenced by Yamnaya. But it all mainly coalesces into the two huge Copper Age twins: Bell Beaker and Corded Ware. At least in Europe.  

It is interesting that David Anthony notes the latter Cucuteni-Tripolye folks made incursions east into Yamnaya territories.  Were they an integrated Cucuteni/Yamnaya culture by that time?

What are the physical characteristics of the latter Cucuteni-Trypillian peoples?  Let's look at both sides of the timeframe and cultures.   What are the physical characteristics of the Bell Beakers versus the Cucuteni-Trypillian versus the Yamnaya, particularly the Yamnaya of the Sea of Azov type.

Quote from: Jean M
It seems that among the steppe peoples, some tribes were dominated by haplogroup R1a1a, and others by R1b1b2. Judging by the end results, the Volga-Ural region, whence sprang the Afanasievo and Andronovo Cultures, was strong in R1a1a, while the region around the Sea of Azov was strong in R1b1b2. Some of the direct descendants of the tribes around the Sea of Azov remained on the steppe after others left for western Europe. They appear in history as the Cimmerians, who were driven out of the steppe into Anatolia and up the Danube in the Iron Age. It is therefore unlikely that we shall find their descendants in the Ukraine today. Since a brother lineage, R1b1c (V88), appears in the Levant and seem connected to the spread of the Neolithic to Africa, we may hazard a guess that R1b1b2 had fed into the steppe with pastoralists who had developed dairy farming around the Sea of Marmara. R1b-L23 could have entered south-eastern Europe with dairy farmers, who contributed to the Cucuteni-Tripolye Culture adjacent to the steppe. In its late stages the Cucuteni-Tripolye Culture and Yamnaya Horizon cross-fertilised each other and merged to some extent.
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/indoeuropeangenetics.shtml#R1b1b2

This is one part of your proposal that I get a little confused.  Did the R1b ancestry that's descendants moved into Western Europe come from Western Anatolian into SE Europe west and north up into Cucuteni-Tripolye lands? or did that ancestral lineage come from the Sea of Azov area around north of the Black Sea and then due west?  Ultimately, the R-L51 and then R-L11 TMRCAs were just of one lineage.  As you know, I think the R-L11 TMRCA is young, similar to P312's and U106's TMRCAs - Bronze Age types (just MHO.)


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: razyn on May 21, 2012, 11:04:15 AM
I posted this on a different thread this morning [Variance of R1b-L23+ Calculated from Academic Studies], but on reflection I think it belongs here:

I thought this post yesterday by MOESAN was pertinent, if a little confusing:

http://tinyurl.com/l5hmz8l

It was almost immediately contradicted by rms2, as you will see if you read it.  But the Dinaric thing was only one of five or six associated traits (physical, linguistic, material culture, Y-DNA).  To me, and I think to MOESAN, the emphasis should be elsewhere in his post -- an unexpected exception to the corded ware rule, that he noticed -- so I'll just highlight that:

Bell Beakers ones was found in one, the Khvalynsk culture in Russia (stage Kurgan III, before -3000?) - if it's true, it's very important, isn't it?

This assertion was pretty clear to me, but his source wasn't -- some unnamed and undated compilation, possibly edited or chaired by Bernard Sergent, and having to do with Indo-European language studies.  Jean M or Alan TH or somebody may know what compilation he's citing, but I don't.  Anyway, Khvalynsk (variously spelled, or transliterated) is a smallish river port way down the Volga, between Samara and Saratov.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: MHammers on May 21, 2012, 01:11:15 PM
What are the physical characteristics of the latter Cucuteni-Trypillian peoples?  Let's look at both sides of the timeframe and cultures.   What are the physical characteristics of the Bell Beakers versus the Cucuteni-Trypillian versus the Yamnaya, particularly the Yamnaya of the Sea of Azov type.

Here is what the late Carleton Coon observed about the Bell Beaker type:
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-V7.htm

Basically, there were two main populations of Bell Beakers.  Physically, the eastern one was more long, narrowed faced and mostly mesocephalic (medium crania).  This is the "Dinaric" type.  The later Celts were similiar to this type.  Around the Rhineland and Britain, they were more brachycephalic and wider faced.  All seem to have been taller on average than the previous neolithic people.  My guess is, this eastern type (R1b?) was partially the result of gracile neolithics(hence the narrow-face retained in eastern BB) intermarrying with foragers/steppe intruders in the northern Balkans/ Carpathian basin.  Of course, the introduction of milk drinking may have played a nutritional role.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: secherbernard on May 21, 2012, 01:13:20 PM
This assertion was pretty clear to me, but his source wasn't -- some unnamed and undated compilation, possibly edited or chaired by Bernard Sergent, and having to do with Indo-European language studies.  Jean M or Alan TH or somebody may know what compilation he's citing, but I don't.  Anyway, Khvalynsk (variously spelled, or transliterated) is a smallish river port way down the Volga, between Samara and Saratov.
Bernard Sergent: Les Indo-Européens, histoire, langues, mythes in french. See here: http://www.amazon.fr/Les-Indo-Europ%C3%A9ens-Bernard-Sergent/dp/2228889563/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337619581&sr=8-1


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 21, 2012, 01:15:41 PM
...so I'll just highlight that:

Bell Beakers ones was found in one, the Khvalynsk culture in Russia (stage Kurgan III, before -3000?) - if it's true, it's very important, isn't it?

This assertion was pretty clear to me, but his source wasn't -- some unnamed and undated compilation, possibly edited or chaired by Bernard Sergent, and having to do with Indo-European language studies. ...

I haven't been able to find references to Bell Beaker artifacts in the Khvalynsk Culture, but I think that would be important if there are some.

I guess I should ask further, is there a clear link between the Eastern Bell Beakers and the Kurgans? It seems plausible and I think Jean M would say the stelae demonstrate there are.

Quote from: Jean M
David Anthony traced the movement of Pre-Proto-Italo-Celtic people up the Danube as far as the Hungarian Plain (Carpathian Basin) by their kurgans. Then we start to see the Bell Beaker Culture spreading over a swathe of Europe. This culture is recognised by its characteristic pottery, shaped like an inverted bell.1 Bell Beaker ware is found as far east as Poland
....
Carved stone anthropomorphic stelae mark the trail of these copper-workers, so let us call them the Stelae People. An early splinter group from the Proto-Italo-Celtic parent would help to explain why the Celtic of Iberia had such an archaic structure, retaining Italic elements
...
Early Beaker elements are found within the Vučedol Culturebut only later do the two fuse to form the Cetina culture... The earliest anthropomorphic stelae have been found in Yamnaya burial mounds in Ukraine. They are particularly associated with one sub-culture, known as the Kemi Oba Culture, centred on Crimea, which was influenced by the neighbouring Maikop Culture. Similar stelae are found at Bell Beaker sites in the Swiss and Italian Alps, and in the Italian regions of Lunigiana and Trento-Alto-Adige, southern France and Iberia.
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/bellbeaker.shtml


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 21, 2012, 01:24:46 PM
What are the physical characteristics of the latter Cucuteni-Trypillian peoples?  Let's look at both sides of the timeframe and cultures.   What are the physical characteristics of the Bell Beakers versus the Cucuteni-Trypillian versus the Yamnaya, particularly the Yamnaya of the Sea of Azov type.

Here is what the late Carleton Coon observed about the Bell Beaker type:
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-V7.htm

Basically, there were two main populations of Bell Beakers.  Physically, the eastern one was more long, narrowed faced and mostly mesocephalic (medium crania).  This is the "Dinaric" type.  The later Celts were similiar to this type.  Around the Rhineland and Britain, they were more brachycephalic and wider faced.  All seem to have been taller on average than the previous neolithic people.  My guess is, this eastern type (R1b?) was partially the result of gracile neolithics(hence the narrow-face retained in eastern BB) intermarrying with foragers/steppe intruders in the northern Balkans/ Carpathian basin.  Of course, the introduction of milk drinking may have played a nutritional role.

What were the Cucuteni-Tripolye like? Were the people of the late Cucuteni-Tripolye people different than the earlier versions?

While I'm asking, what about early IE possible folks in Anatolia?  The Hittites?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 21, 2012, 01:45:37 PM
We have some mtDNA from Cucuteni-Tripolye people from Ukraine. It is what we would expect of people with a (distant) origin in the Near East, including H, J, T. The interesting thing is that the T is the relatively rare T2a1b1 and it turns up again in Andronovo. Positive proof of mixing, I'd say.

I gave up on the attempt to work out where the broad-headedness of one strand of Bell Beaker came from.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 21, 2012, 02:21:47 PM
The interesting thing is that the T is the relatively rare T2a1b1 and it turns up again in Andronovo.
T2a1b1 descendants are all Western Europeans.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 21, 2012, 02:44:28 PM
T2a1b1 descendants are all Western Europeans.

You mean the people in the Family Tree DNA T2 project? (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/T2/default.aspx?section=mtresults)  
 
Yes - all 5 of the confirmed T2a1b1 and T2a1b1a persons listed there are either European or from the US with European names. That's no surprise, surely? mtDNA found in Andronovo would most probably be also found among those from the steppe who travelled west as well.

Since there is a severe shortage of Iranian and Indian persons testing with Family Tree DNA, we'd be lucky to find one in the T2 project at all, let alone one with a rare mtDNA haplogroup. I wouldn't know how to find out if there are any T2a1b1a persons out there in India or Iran or Afghanistan or wherever.

The point is that if you have a haplogroup from Cucuteni appearing also in Andronovo, there must have been some gene flow between steppe groups and Cucuteni.



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 21, 2012, 03:02:01 PM
This assertion was pretty clear to me, but his source wasn't -- some unnamed and undated compilation, possibly edited or chaired by Bernard Sergent, and having to do with Indo-European language studies.  Jean M or Alan TH or somebody may know what compilation he's citing, but I don't.  Anyway, Khvalynsk (variously spelled, or transliterated) is a smallish river port way down the Volga, between Samara and Saratov.
Bernard Sergent: Les Indo-Européens, histoire, langues, mythes in french. See here: http://www.amazon.fr/Les-Indo-Europ%C3%A9ens-Bernard-Sergent/dp/2228889563/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337619581&sr=8-1

I have the book and can check it when I get home. Did the poster provide a page number?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 21, 2012, 03:15:04 PM
T2a1b1 descendants are all Western Europeans.

You mean the people in the Family Tree DNA T2 project? (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/T2/default.aspx?section=mtresults)  
 
Yes - all 5 of the confirmed T2a1b1 and T2a1b1a persons listed there are either European or from the US with European names. That's no surprise, surely? mtDNA found in Andronovo would most probably be also found among those from the steppe who travelled west as well.

Since there is a severe shortage of Iranian and Indian persons testing with Family Tree DNA, we'd be lucky to find one in the T2 project at all, let alone one with a rare mtDNA haplogroup. I wouldn't know how to find out if there are any T2a1b1a persons out there in India or Iran or Afghanistan or wherever.

The point is that if you have a haplogroup from Cucuteni appearing also in Andronovo, there must have been some gene flow between steppe groups and Cucuteni.



Jean, you should search the last paper about hg.J/T. Probably it wasn’t for free, but I have printed the supplements. Hg. T2a1 is 14.5+/-3.0 years old. T2a1b, with the mutation 16324 probably a few time after. T2a1b2 has descendants in East Europe and North Caucasus, but T2a1b1 is probably Western European. Anyway the time is probably much before the cultures you are thinking about. Unfortunately I must work for my school now, but you could look at the data of Behar 2012b, even though I think he isn’t always reliable.



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: secherbernard on May 21, 2012, 03:22:00 PM
I haven't been able to find references to Bell Beaker artifacts in the Khvalynsk Culture, but I think that would be important if there are some.

I guess I should ask further, is there a clear link between the Eastern Bell Beakers and the Kurgans? It seems plausible and I think Jean M would say the stelae demonstrate there are.
Look at this paper of Nadezhda Kotova and Larissa Spitsyna about pottery in the steppes: http://tinyurl.com/bwkryed
I think there are some links between these potteries and beaker ones.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: razyn on May 21, 2012, 04:05:23 PM
I have the book and can check it when I get home. Did the poster provide a page number?

No.  Nor a title, nor a date -- Bernard Secher gave us this title, and assuming he has correctly deduced Moesan's reference, that's about 2004 (judging from the comments about it on Amazon).  I had found other IE studies by Sergent, but they were mostly about linguistic movements from the heartland eastward (esp. to India) and whether those involve migrations, conquests, trade routes, etc.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: MHammers on May 21, 2012, 04:27:06 PM
What are the physical characteristics of the latter Cucuteni-Trypillian peoples?  Let's look at both sides of the timeframe and cultures.   What are the physical characteristics of the Bell Beakers versus the Cucuteni-Trypillian versus the Yamnaya, particularly the Yamnaya of the Sea of Azov type.

Here is what the late Carleton Coon observed about the Bell Beaker type:
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-V7.htm

Basically, there were two main populations of Bell Beakers.  Physically, the eastern one was more long, narrowed faced and mostly mesocephalic (medium crania).  This is the "Dinaric" type.  The later Celts were similiar to this type.  Around the Rhineland and Britain, they were more brachycephalic and wider faced.  All seem to have been taller on average than the previous neolithic people.  My guess is, this eastern type (R1b?) was partially the result of gracile neolithics(hence the narrow-face retained in eastern BB) intermarrying with foragers/steppe intruders in the northern Balkans/ Carpathian basin.  Of course, the introduction of milk drinking may have played a nutritional role.

What were the Cucuteni-Tripolye like? Were the people of the late Cucuteni-Tripolye people different than the earlier versions?

While I'm asking, what about early IE possible folks in Anatolia?  The Hittites?

Cucuteni-Tripolye were the gracile, short Mediterranean types.  Heads were not near as long as Corded or Cro-magon-like steppe foragers and also had short faces.  Average height about 5'3'' or 160cm.  They did have a brachycephalic minority with cranial indexes up to 80 which is similiar to BB.  I haven't seen anything different in the later period.  However, towards the later neolithic there were more brachycephlic elements emerging in the Globular amphora and Baden cultures who were not too far away.  This is also close to where the early ceramic influences in Bell Beaker came from.

Here is the page about Hittites and bronze age Anatolia:
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-V02.htm


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 21, 2012, 04:44:52 PM
I have the book and can check it when I get home. Did the poster provide a page number?

No.  Nor a title, nor a date -- Bernard Secher gave us this title, and assuming he has correctly deduced Moesan's reference, that's about 2004 (judging from the comments about it on Amazon).  I had found other IE studies by Sergent, but they were mostly about linguistic movements from the heartland eastward (esp. to India) and whether those involve migrations, conquests, trade routes, etc.

I would think that any direct link between Khvalynsk and Bell Beakers would be extremely big news in the archaeological community. Khvalynsk seems to be devided into an Early and Late phase, with the later ending a good 1,000 years before Bell Beaker.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 21, 2012, 05:05:50 PM
Jean, you should search the last paper about hg.J/T.

I have it. Not that I bothered to buy it. It looks to me like another misguided paper from Pala. But it is now available online from a university website, so I picked it up.  

I also have Behar et al, A “Copernican” Reassessment of the Human Mitochondrial DNA Tree from its Root (2012) and I did have a look at the date given for T2a1b1: 10946 years old i.e. 8,000 BC 9,000 BC. Looks like part of a star-burst of new subclades in T at a time of population expansion in the Near East with farming. What is the problem with that?  

The date of the mutation that creates a haplogroup is not the same as the date that said haplogroup arrives at a particular place. I'm assuming that  T2a1b1 arose somewhere in the expansion and happened to take the route through Anatolia to Europe, finding its way to Cucteni where it appears in aDNA.




Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 21, 2012, 05:21:16 PM
Bell Beakers ones was found in one, the Khvalynsk culture in Russia (stage Kurgan III, before -3000?) - if it's true, it's very important, isn't it?

The quote was :

Quote
that 'corded' ware was found in a lot of I-E cultures of the Steppes BUT also 'corded' + Bell Beakers ones was found in one, the Khavlynsk culture in Russia (stage Kurgan III, before -3000?)

What he seems to be saying is that pottery impressed with cords can be found in steppe cultures before the pottery known as Corded Ware to the north of the steppe. Also pottery with a waist and everted lip can be found in steppe cultures before Bell Beaker.  This is true. It is a point I made at some point in my text, but I may have taken it out again as too much pottery detail can bore my readers. :)

[Added] For those who have a copy of Anthony, The Horse, The Wheel and Language - see the bell-shape in fig. 12.9. That type of pottery evolved from the first pottery to arrive in Europe - the pointed-bottom Samara type, which came across the steppe from the Far East. See fig 13.5 for early Yamnaya ceramics including Khvalynsk-related. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 21, 2012, 05:21:55 PM
10946 years aren't 8000 BC but 9000 and the expansion wasn't from Middle East, but this haplogroup was already European. T2a1b2 is North Caucasus/East Europe, then the expansion wasn't from Middle East, and times are older. I think you cannot constrain the facts to your theories, because in this case your theories will be irremediably defeated.



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 21, 2012, 05:29:47 PM
10946 years aren't 8000 BC but 9000 

You are right. I have corrected my post. It makes no material difference.

We have no evidence in ancient DNA for mtDNA J and  T of any kind in Europe prior to the Neolithic. No matter what dates we put on J and T, that is the fact that makes Pala et al 2012 unconvincing. Yes - as a thought experiment, anything could have happened. But it doesn't so far look as though J and T actually did arrive in Europe as early as Pala would like. 



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 21, 2012, 05:44:04 PM
What are the physical characteristics of the latter Cucuteni-Trypillian peoples?  Let's look at both sides of the timeframe and cultures.   What are the physical characteristics of the Bell Beakers versus the Cucuteni-Trypillian versus the Yamnaya, particularly the Yamnaya of the Sea of Azov type.

Here is what the late Carleton Coon observed about the Bell Beaker type:
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-V7.htm

Basically, there were two main populations of Bell Beakers.  Physically, the eastern one was more long, narrowed faced and mostly mesocephalic (medium crania).  This is the "Dinaric" type.  The later Celts were similiar to this type.  Around the Rhineland and Britain, they were more brachycephalic and wider faced.  All seem to have been taller on average than the previous neolithic people.  My guess is, this eastern type (R1b?) was partially the result of gracile neolithics(hence the narrow-face retained in eastern BB) intermarrying with foragers/steppe intruders in the northern Balkans/ Carpathian basin.  Of course, the introduction of milk drinking may have played a nutritional role.

What were the Cucuteni-Tripolye like? Were the people of the late Cucuteni-Tripolye people different than the earlier versions?

While I'm asking, what about early IE possible folks in Anatolia?  The Hittites?

Cucuteni-Tripolye were the gracile, short Mediterranean types.  Heads were not near as long as Corded or Cro-magon-like steppe foragers and also had short faces.  Average height about 5'3'' or 160cm.  They did have a brachycephalic minority with cranial indexes up to 80 which is similiar to BB.  I haven't seen anything different in the later period.  However, towards the later neolithic there were more brachycephlic elements emerging in the Globular amphora and Baden cultures who were not too far away.  This is also close to where the early ceramic influences in Bell Beaker came from.

Here is the page about Hittites and bronze age Anatolia:
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-V02.htm

This is not to say that all IE folks were Brachyceplic or Mesaticephalic, but it appears that where ancient IE cultures show up, the proportion of long headed dolichocephalic folks goes down to make room for the broad and moderate head people.

For the western European IE types to have such a heavy quantity of R1b (without R1a1 in the west) that are also sprinkled with Bell Beaker types of skeletons implies to me that R1b did not come out of the Cucuteni-Trypolye (or other Old Europe/early Neolithic types), but if anything, went into it.  If the Hittites of Anatolia were gracile types that would impact my opinion, but it looks like they were not. Perhaps the Hittlties were just a second wave of R1b and the first one (dairymen in Anatolia) was gracile with the second (Hittites) more Steppes like.  I don't know. I'm just having a hard time figuring out how non-long headed Beaker guys showed up in Western Europe without their R1a counterparts, assuming R1b was sourced by Cucuteni-Trypolye.



P.S. - Is "do_e" where the underscore is an "s" a bad word in some language? Every time I post with that word it gets removed by worldfamilies.net.  It's strange. I've had to resort to using the word "quantity" instead.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 21, 2012, 06:15:29 PM
The problem is that no Y-DNA haplogroup determines the shape of the head, just as it doesn't determine hair colour or height.  Brachycephaly is associated with some Bell Beaker groups - those who radiated north of the Alps. It could have entered that group by inter-marriage with brachycephalic females, or even stem from just one brachycephalic female somewhere along the line.  

If we take it that R1b is associated with Bell Beaker, then R1b was carried by dolichocephalic men into Iberia. We also have R1b as well as R1a1a in Corded Ware. The Corded Ware makers were distinctly different from the brachycephalic Bell Beaker types.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 21, 2012, 06:28:46 PM
I notice too that Coon says brachycephally was also uncommon in Anatolia in the Neolithic.  I am not sure where it was hiding in that period.  I think the key is that the bell beakers and indeed Copper age R1b seems to have been an extended clan spreading widely rather than some sort of migration so this striking but minority type among the beakers may have been a family look rather than a true population thing and perhaps for a century or so the type persisted but would have been doomed to dissapear, particularly if they used marriage over a wider area as a networking/alliance building tool.   


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: razyn on May 21, 2012, 06:46:37 PM
Bell Beakers ones was found in one, the Khvalynsk culture in Russia (stage Kurgan III, before -3000?) - if it's true, it's very important, isn't it?

The quote was :

Quote
that 'corded' ware was found in a lot of I-E cultures of the Steppes BUT also 'corded' + Bell Beakers ones was found in one, the Khavlynsk culture in Russia (stage Kurgan III, before -3000?)

What he seems to be saying is that pottery impressed with cords can be found in steppe cultures before the pottery known as Corded Ware to the north of the steppe.

The even more complete quote was :

Quote
in B.SERGENT (compilation of scholars about I-E) I red (surprised) that 'corded' ware was found in a lot of I-E cultures of the Steppes BUT also 'corded' + Bell Beakers ones was found in one, the Khavlynsk culture in Russia (stage Kurgan III, before -3000?) - if it's true, it's very important, isn't it?

What he seems to me to be saying is that when he read this (and I don't think that was in 2004, nor from Anthony 2007 -- though he may just have gotten around to reading such works), he was surprised.  And I think what surprised him was not the (ho-hum) corded ware with pointed bases, "found in a lot of cultures," BUT what came after the word BUT -- Bell Beakers (also), found in one (culture: Khvalynsk) -- and relevant to a thread about Bell Beaker links (although I'm fairly sure Sergent called them "Campaniformes").

Anyway, that's how I read it, and why I posted only the surprising part.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 21, 2012, 06:55:40 PM
One thing I notice is that the bell beaker skulls are brachycephalic due to flattening of the back of the head rather than a wide head.  They actually seem to me to have a basically dolichocephalic head form with a narrow face, projecting nose, narrow forehead etc.  It really just the back of the head that has been flattened and widened.  That to me really does hint that this may be down to cradling practices and lifestyle.  I have read a couple of interesting websites that show how sensative babies are to how they are cradled and how much it impacts on head form and skull form has a big impact on face shapes too. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 21, 2012, 07:00:11 PM
I've said this before, but I don't think Cucuteni-Tripolye was predominantly R1b. I think when we get some aDNA from there it will be I-P37.2, E1b1b, and G2a.

Just my opinion.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 21, 2012, 07:01:46 PM
In fact so much of the beaker head shape resembles positional brachycephally that you really got to wonder 

http://www.healthylittleheads.org/What-is-Brachycephaly.asp


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 21, 2012, 07:11:10 PM
I've said this before, but I don't think Cucuteni-Tripolye was predominantly R1b. I think when we get some aDNA from there it will be I-P37.2, E1b1b, and G2a.

I agree that it seems unlikely to be solidly R1b. In fact I went for the idea that I2 was carried by local foragers of the Danube Basin who adopted farming from incoming farmers and ended up in Cucuteni-Tripolye villages long before it occurred to me that R1b could have been the same villages! That would account for the way that some I2+ seems to travel with R1b.    


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 21, 2012, 07:11:38 PM
I've said this before, but I don't think Cucuteni-Tripolye was predominantly R1b. I think when we get some aDNA from there it will be I-P37.2, E1b1b, and G2a.

Just my opinion.

I am coming around to think that too.  The L23* variance map I posted from Rokus's blog (based on Myres I think) actually shows the higher variance band heading up from the eastern half of Anatolia, round the top of the Black Sea and into Romania.  The direction is unclear but thats the spread. The important point is that the variance is lower in eastern Anatolia and in fact much lower around the coasts.  So, I have started to wonder if L23* entered the Balkans from the east after a journey along the north shore of the Black Sea.  I notice that the fact the Black Sea was a sea is often not mentioned.  One of Jean's collection of papers mentions that they are now detecting a commonality of sorts in the assembleges on both sides of the Black Sea in the copper age.  Its odd that the possibility of using a boat doesnt get mentioned a lot when we are discussion the Black Sea. One thing I firmly believe is that the Bell Beaker people had a strong maritime tradition behind them.  I think there is very little doubt about that. So I would certainly feel that we need to be looking at some ancestral spot with access to a large body of water rather than deep steppe background. Which sea though I am less sure!  The Black Sea and Adriatic seem to most likely.  I would have said the east Med. too but Rokus's L23* map shows low variance around the Turkish and Greek Aegean.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 21, 2012, 07:18:02 PM
I've said this before, but I don't think Cucuteni-Tripolye was predominantly R1b. I think when we get some aDNA from there it will be I-P37.2, E1b1b, and G2a.

I agree. In fact I went for the idea that I2 was carried by local foragers of the Danube Basin who adopted farming from incoming farmers and ended up in Cucuteni-Tripolye villages long before it occurred to me that R1b could have been the same villages! That would account for the way that some I2+ seems to travel with R1b.   

Does the apparently lower variance of L23 in east Anatolia and the Aegean not may you that the entry into Europe more likley to have been to the east of the Black Sea and then around its north coast to Romania etc.  I was trying to make sense of the L23 variance map and higher variance seems to link west Anatolia with the north of the Black Sea and then Romania.  I dont know what direction though.  It could have spread both south and west from some point north of the Black Sea or could have spread from SE Anatolia etc northwards then west.  The third option of Balkans to Anatolia and north of the Black Sea exists too. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 21, 2012, 07:36:59 PM
I think there was a basic Mediterranean-type population inhabiting much of Europe before R1b got there, from the Neolithic villages in the Balkans to those in Iberia, France and even Britain. On the y-dna side of things, it was probably mostly what we have seen thus far from the various Neolithic sites: I2a (P37.2), E1b1b, and G2a.

I think the Paleolithic and Mesolithic remnants might have been F and perhaps some older kinds of I, and some of them will show up here and there.

I suspect R1b came up from Anatolia or perhaps even from the western steppe. If it came from the P-C steppe, then it probably left en masse at some point. The void it left was later backfilled by peoples who were mostly R1a.

These are just my opinions. I could be wrong, of course.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 21, 2012, 07:37:11 PM
Does the apparently lower variance of L23 in east Anatolia and the Aegean

I don't pay much attention to modern DNA as a guide to migrations so far back except in very broad outline - continent-wide say, or broad correlations with language families and such-like - because millennia of migrations have blurred the detail of the picture. The number of IE-speakers who have tramped to and fro over  Anatolia have not left us a pristine reflection in modern DNA of the situation c. 6000 BC.    

I'm interested in the fact that R1b appears to spread from east to west on three counts - earlier subclades in Asia than Europe, greater variance in Asia of R1b (M343) overall (Herrera 2011), and the Surfing effect noted by Chiaroni. For the detail of how R1b might have moved west, I looked at the archaeology and linguistics.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 21, 2012, 08:04:17 PM
I think there was a basic Mediterranean-type population inhabiting much of Europe before R1b got there, from the Neolithic villages in the Balkans to those in Iberia, France and even Britain. On the y-dna side of things, it was probably mostly what we have seen thus far from the various Neolithic sites: I2a (P37.2), E1b1b, and G2a.

I think the Paleolithic and Mesolithic remnants might have been F and perhaps some older kinds of I, and some of them will show up here and there.

I suspect R1b came up from Anatolia or perhaps even from the western steppe. If it came from the P-C steppe, then it probably left en masse at some point. The void it left was later backfilled by peoples who were mostly R1a.

These are just my opinions. I could be wrong, of course.

The CT culture certainly shows a number of spectacular demographic effects such as penetration deep into Ukraine to the edge of the steppes at the expense of the hunters then a superconcentration into monster settlements then collapse/dispersal (perhaps due to the sudden arridity phase).  

I am a great believer in those books that display a page showing all the artefacts and traditions of a culure pictorially and do the same for other cultures.  The bottom line is that the 'vibe' of beaker culture and the general look and feel of it just do not look to have much in common with the native material of either the Balkans or Anatolia of t 4th millium BC.  To me beaker culture has a clear 'barbarian' feel to it and it resembles in vibe if not detail TRB, Corded Ware, maybe some steppes cultures etc.  It just doesnt have the feel of having ancestry in the native cultures of Anatolia or the Balkans. If you just look at books showing typical material cultures they look like a different world.    



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Arwunbee on May 21, 2012, 09:36:05 PM
I'm just having a hard time figuring out how non-long headed Beaker guys showed up in Western Europe without their R1a counterparts, assuming R1b was sourced by Cucuteni-Trypolye.
This scientist has been asking the same question.
http://tinyurl.com/78fukrb (http://tinyurl.com/78fukrb)


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mark Jost on May 21, 2012, 11:38:48 PM
Nice!


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: MHammers on May 21, 2012, 11:53:40 PM
This is not to say that all IE folks were Brachyceplic or Mesaticephalic, but it appears that where ancient IE cultures show up, the proportion of long headed dolichocephalic folks goes down to make room for the broad and moderate head people.

For the western European IE types to have such a heavy quantity of R1b (without R1a1 in the west) that are also sprinkled with Bell Beaker types of skeletons implies to me that R1b did not come out of the Cucuteni-Trypolye (or other Old Europe/early Neolithic types), but if anything, went into it.  If the Hittites of Anatolia were gracile types that would impact my opinion, but it looks like they were not. Perhaps the Hittlties were just a second wave of R1b and the first one (dairymen in Anatolia) was gracile with the second (Hittites) more Steppes like.  I don't know. I'm just having a hard time figuring out how non-long headed Beaker guys showed up in Western Europe without their R1a counterparts, assuming R1b was sourced by Cucuteni-Trypolye.

P.S. - Is "do_e" where the underscore is an "s" a bad word in some language? Every time I post with that word it gets removed by worldfamilies.net.  It's strange. I've had to resort to using the word "quantity" instead.

The steppe populations were almost completely long-headed in just about every sample I can find.  This goes for Maykop, Kemi-Oba (Crimea) and Corded-ware as well, although they  were more gracile than the steppe foragers probably due to contact with nearby farming populations.  This would be TRB with Corded-ware, Cucuteni-Tripolye with Kemi-Oba, and Mesopotamia for Maykop.  I have found a small sample of Yamnaya from Ukraine that reached a cranial index of 78.9.  This approaches the broad-headedness of Bell Beaker and hints at contact with western populations.  Also, there were already broad-headed types in Europe before Bell Beaker or Yamnaya, but not so much in the P-C steppe.

For some reason in the 4th millenium BC, the brachycephals seems to increase in number in SE Europe particularly the Hungarian plain.  Whether this is the result of hundred of years of farmer/forager mixing, new movement from Anatolia, or something much more complex is less clear?  I tend to think a farmer/ forager "hybridization" model may be one factor because, the broad-headed element is not observed in Anatolia until after 2300 BC.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 22, 2012, 05:10:03 AM
@ MHammers

I think your conclusion is the closest we are going to get to an answer to this one.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 22, 2012, 09:29:05 AM
This is not to say that all IE folks were Brachyceplic or Mesaticephalic, but it appears that where ancient IE cultures show up, the proportion of long headed dolichocephalic folks goes down to make room for the broad and moderate head people.

For the western European IE types to have such a heavy quantity of R1b (without R1a1 in the west) that are also sprinkled with Bell Beaker types of skeletons implies to me that R1b did not come out of the Cucuteni-Trypolye (or other Old Europe/early Neolithic types), but if anything, went into it.  If the Hittites of Anatolia were gracile types that would impact my opinion, but it looks like they were not. Perhaps the Hittlties were just a second wave of R1b and the first one (dairymen in Anatolia) was gracile with the second (Hittites) more Steppes like.  I don't know. I'm just having a hard time figuring out how non-long headed Beaker guys showed up in Western Europe without their R1a counterparts, assuming R1b was sourced by Cucuteni-Trypolye.

P.S. - Is "do_e" where the underscore is an "s" a bad word in some language? Every time I post with that word it gets removed by worldfamilies.net.  It's strange. I've had to resort to using the word "quantity" instead.

The steppe populations were almost completely long-headed in just about every sample I can find.  This goes for Maykop, Kemi-Oba (Crimea) and Corded-ware as well, although they  were more gracile than the steppe foragers probably due to contact with nearby farming populations.  This would be TRB with Corded-ware, Cucuteni-Tripolye with Kemi-Oba, and Mesopotamia for Maykop.  I have found a small sample of Yamnaya from Ukraine that reached a cranial index of 78.9.  This approaches the broad-headedness of Bell Beaker and hints at contact with western populations.  Also, there were already broad-headed types in Europe before Bell Beaker or Yamnaya, but not so much in the P-C steppe.

For some reason in the 4th millenium BC, the brachycephals seems to increase in number in SE Europe particularly the Hungarian plain.  Whether this is the result of hundred of years of farmer/forager mixing, new movement from Anatolia, or something much more complex is less clear?  I tend to think a farmer/ forager "hybridization" model may be one factor because, the broad-headed element is not observed in Anatolia until after 2300 BC.
This is intestering. By SE Europe, do you include Romania?  or are you primarily talking about the Balkan Peninsula?



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Humanist on May 22, 2012, 09:30:18 AM

What were the Cucuteni-Tripolye like? Were the people of the late Cucuteni-Tripolye people different than the earlier versions?

While I'm asking, what about early IE possible folks in Anatolia?  The Hittites?

I have given up trying to tie cephalic indices with populations.  Evidence of too much plasticity, in my opinion.  For example, the populations of what is today Georgia, and the Armenian Highland, were apparently dolichocephalic and mesocephalic, 1500+ years ago.  Today, of course, they are brachycephalic.  Our nearest genetic cousins, the Iraqi Mandaeans, are long-headed.  While we are not.  

FWIW.  From Henry Field's “Ancient and Modern Man in Southwestern Asia.”

Quote
TABLE 23: CEPHALIC INDEX OF 375 HITTITE CRANIA   
Subdolichocephals   10.93 %
Mesocephals   12.53 %
Subbrachycephals   27.46 %
Brachycephals   14.93 %
Hyperbrachycephals   26.13 %
Ultrabrachycephals   8.00 %

Quite the variety.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: MHammers on May 22, 2012, 10:56:35 AM
This is not to say that all IE folks were Brachyceplic or Mesaticephalic, but it appears that where ancient IE cultures show up, the proportion of long headed dolichocephalic folks goes down to make room for the broad and moderate head people.

For the western European IE types to have such a heavy quantity of R1b (without R1a1 in the west) that are also sprinkled with Bell Beaker types of skeletons implies to me that R1b did not come out of the Cucuteni-Trypolye (or other Old Europe/early Neolithic types), but if anything, went into it.  If the Hittites of Anatolia were gracile types that would impact my opinion, but it looks like they were not. Perhaps the Hittlties were just a second wave of R1b and the first one (dairymen in Anatolia) was gracile with the second (Hittites) more Steppes like.  I don't know. I'm just having a hard time figuring out how non-long headed Beaker guys showed up in Western Europe without their R1a counterparts, assuming R1b was sourced by Cucuteni-Trypolye.

P.S. - Is "do_e" where the underscore is an "s" a bad word in some language? Every time I post with that word it gets removed by worldfamilies.net.  It's strange. I've had to resort to using the word "quantity" instead.

The steppe populations were almost completely long-headed in just about every sample I can find.  This goes for Maykop, Kemi-Oba (Crimea) and Corded-ware as well, although they  were more gracile than the steppe foragers probably due to contact with nearby farming populations.  This would be TRB with Corded-ware, Cucuteni-Tripolye with Kemi-Oba, and Mesopotamia for Maykop.  I have found a small sample of Yamnaya from Ukraine that reached a cranial index of 78.9.  This approaches the broad-headedness of Bell Beaker and hints at contact with western populations.  Also, there were already broad-headed types in Europe before Bell Beaker or Yamnaya, but not so much in the P-C steppe.

For some reason in the 4th millenium BC, the brachycephals seems to increase in number in SE Europe particularly the Hungarian plain.  Whether this is the result of hundred of years of farmer/forager mixing, new movement from Anatolia, or something much more complex is less clear?  I tend to think a farmer/ forager "hybridization" model may be one factor because, the broad-headed element is not observed in Anatolia until after 2300 BC.
This is intestering. By SE Europe, do you include Romania?  or are you primarily talking about the Balkan Peninsula?

Probably all of the above, but the few papers I've seen mostly have data from the Danube corridor/Carpathian basin/Hungarian plain.  So, yes Romania would be a possibility.

The eastern beakers were more diverse physically.  It is more in the west where the large, broad-head types show up as a majority.  I think this can be attributed to larger remnant mesolithic populations surviving in the west away from the more entrenched farmers of SE Europe (think Hg.'s I1, I2, F, U5, etc.).  This is not going to exactly correlate with the travels of r1b, but along with Desideri's studies it does demonstrate that Bell Beakers were made up of various mobile people.

Here is a paper on Bell Beaker common ware showing the ceramic influences.  All from the east.
http://archiveouverte.unige.ch/downloader/pdf/tmp/tar5cka3cq9qj0efie0d3l2gp2/out.pdf
Also, one about BB sites in the east.  Notice the lack of horse remains compared to cattle on p. 193.
http://www.menhir-cz.eu/library/Turek-Dvorak-Peska2003.pdf


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 22, 2012, 11:29:56 AM
This is not to say that all IE folks were Brachyceplic or Mesaticephalic, but it appears that where ancient IE cultures show up, the proportion of long headed dolichocephalic folks goes down to make room for the broad and moderate head people.

For the western European IE types to have such a heavy quantity of R1b (without R1a1 in the west) that are also sprinkled with Bell Beaker types of skeletons implies to me that R1b did not come out of the Cucuteni-Trypolye (or other Old Europe/early Neolithic types), but if anything, went into it.  If the Hittites of Anatolia were gracile types that would impact my opinion, but it looks like they were not. Perhaps the Hittlties were just a second wave of R1b and the first one (dairymen in Anatolia) was gracile with the second (Hittites) more Steppes like.  I don't know. I'm just having a hard time figuring out how non-long headed Beaker guys showed up in Western Europe without their R1a counterparts, assuming R1b was sourced by Cucuteni-Trypolye.

P.S. - Is "do_e" where the underscore is an "s" a bad word in some language? Every time I post with that word it gets removed by worldfamilies.net.  It's strange. I've had to resort to using the word "quantity" instead.

The steppe populations were almost completely long-headed in just about every sample I can find.  This goes for Maykop, Kemi-Oba (Crimea) and Corded-ware as well, although they  were more gracile than the steppe foragers probably due to contact with nearby farming populations.  This would be TRB with Corded-ware, Cucuteni-Tripolye with Kemi-Oba, and Mesopotamia for Maykop.  I have found a small sample of Yamnaya from Ukraine that reached a cranial index of 78.9.  This approaches the broad-headedness of Bell Beaker and hints at contact with western populations.  Also, there were already broad-headed types in Europe before Bell Beaker or Yamnaya, but not so much in the P-C steppe.

For some reason in the 4th millenium BC, the brachycephals seems to increase in number in SE Europe particularly the Hungarian plain.  Whether this is the result of hundred of years of farmer/forager mixing, new movement from Anatolia, or something much more complex is less clear?  I tend to think a farmer/ forager "hybridization" model may be one factor because, the broad-headed element is not observed in Anatolia until after 2300 BC.
This is intestering. By SE Europe, do you include Romania?  or are you primarily talking about the Balkan Peninsula?

Probably all of the above, but the few papers I've seen mostly have data from the Danube corridor/Carpathian basin/Hungarian plain.  So, yes Romania would be a possibility.

The eastern beakers were more diverse physically.  It is more in the west where the large, broad-head types show up as a majority.  I think this can be attributed to larger remnant mesolithic populations surviving in the west away from the more entrenched farmers of SE Europe (think Hg.'s I1, I2, F, U5, etc.).  This is not going to exactly correlate with the travels of r1b, but along with Desideri's studies it does demonstrate that Bell Beakers were made up of various mobile people.

Here is a paper on Bell Beaker common ware showing the ceramic influences.  All from the east.
http://archiveouverte.unige.ch/downloader/pdf/tmp/tar5cka3cq9qj0efie0d3l2gp2/out.pdf
Also, one about BB sites in the east.  Notice the lack of horse remains compared to cattle on p. 193.
http://www.menhir-cz.eu/library/Turek-Dvorak-Peska2003.pdf
I'm lost a little on why you think the larger proportion of large, broad-head Beaker folks in the west could be attributed to mixing with western Mesolithic populations.  I assume you are thinking of Gaul and Iberia because the LBK didn't fully reach there.  We know Cardial Wares Neolithic people did get to the Atlantic fringes, but are you saying they didn't have the penetration of the population like the LBK farmers did?

Is there an implication that you think the Beakers mixed with the Mesolithic peoples in remote areas first, rather than with the farmers in valleys?



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 22, 2012, 11:34:33 AM
I've said this before, but I don't think Cucuteni-Tripolye was predominantly R1b. I think when we get some aDNA from there it will be I-P37.2, E1b1b, and G2a.

I agree that it seems unlikely to be solidly R1b. In fact I went for the idea that I2 was carried by local foragers of the Danube Basin who adopted farming from incoming farmers and ended up in Cucuteni-Tripolye villages long before it occurred to me that R1b could have been the same villages! That would account for the way that some I2+ seems to travel with R1b.    
Jean M, are saying something different here?    My guess is that R1b in the origional Cucuteni-Tripolye would have been very light.  I see you think that R1b would NOT be "solid" within Cucuteni-Tripolye, but that is not the same thing.  Are you saying that you think R1b was in the majority or the largest or even the most significant element of the Y hg's in Cucuteni-Tripolye?

The problem is that no Y-DNA haplogroup determines the shape of the head, just as it doesn't determine hair colour or height.  Brachycephaly is associated with some Bell Beaker groups - those who radiated north of the Alps. It could have entered that group by inter-marriage with brachycephalic females, or even stem from just one brachycephalic female somewhere along the line.  

If we take it that R1b is associated with Bell Beaker, then R1b was carried by dolichocephalic men into Iberia.....
I understand Y DNA does not have anything to do with one's skeletal/skull structure.

However, just like M153 appears to be a diagnostic marker for where Basque populations are found, the proportion of broad and medium heads seems to be diagnostic both of IE and at least in some places of Bell Beakers.  After much inter-marriage, these characteristics could easily have washed out, which may be what happened for Iberian Bell Beakers, having inter-mixed many times over on the way to western Europe.

We also have R1b as well as R1a1a in Corded Ware. The Corded Ware makers were distinctly different from the brachycephalic Bell Beaker types.
Is this true? Do we know R1b was in Corded Ware cultures?  I don't think this is necessarily so.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 22, 2012, 11:44:27 AM
T2a1b1 descendants are all Western Europeans.

You mean the people in the Family Tree DNA T2 project? (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/T2/default.aspx?section=mtresults)  
 
Yes - all 5 of the confirmed T2a1b1 and T2a1b1a persons listed there are either European or from the US with European names. That's no surprise, surely? mtDNA found in Andronovo would most probably be also found among those from the steppe who travelled west as well.

Since there is a severe shortage of Iranian and Indian persons testing with Family Tree DNA, we'd be lucky to find one in the T2 project at all, let alone one with a rare mtDNA haplogroup. I wouldn't know how to find out if there are any T2a1b1a persons out there in India or Iran or Afghanistan or wherever.

The point is that if you have a haplogroup from Cucuteni appearing also in Andronovo, there must have been some gene flow between steppe groups and Cucuteni.



Thanks. This is what I was asking for. Evidence of tripoyle admixture.

I bet mtdna T2a1b1a wll trun up in afghanistan, uzbekistan, tajikistan or turkmenistan. I know T is very common in Turkmenistan.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 22, 2012, 11:59:23 AM

What were the Cucuteni-Tripolye like? Were the people of the late Cucuteni-Tripolye people different than the earlier versions?

While I'm asking, what about early IE possible folks in Anatolia?  The Hittites?

I have given up trying to tie cephalic indices with populations.  Evidence of too much plasticity, in my opinion.  For example, the populations of what is today Georgia, and the Armenian Highland, were apparently dolichocephalic and mesocephalic, 1500+ years ago.  Today, of course, they are brachycephalic.  Our nearest genetic cousins, the Iraqi Mandaeans, are long-headed.  While we are not.  

FWIW.  From Henry Field's “Ancient and Modern Man in Southwestern Asia.”

Quote
TABLE 23: CEPHALIC INDEX OF 375 HITTITE CRANIA   
Subdolichocephals   10.93 %
Mesocephals   12.53 %
Subbrachycephals   27.46 %
Brachycephals   14.93 %
Hyperbrachycephals   26.13 %
Ultrabrachycephals   8.00 %

Quite the variety.

Is there evidence of long headed skull in the Caucasus and Anatolia?

And what accounts for iranians (even azeri iranians) being so long headed?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: MHammers on May 22, 2012, 12:10:20 PM
I'm lost a little on why you think the larger proportion of large, broad-head Beaker folks in the west could be attributed to mixing with western Mesolithic populations.  I assume you are thinking of Gaul and Iberia because the LBK didn't fully reach there.  We know Cardial Wares Neolithic people did get to the Atlantic fringes, but are you saying they didn't have the penetration of the population like the LBK farmers did?

Is there an implication that you think the Beakers mixed with the Mesolithic peoples in remote areas first, rather than with the farmers in valleys?
To your first question, it seems as though the farmers were more sparsely populated towards the continental NW based on hg. patterns.  I'm not sure about Britain.  Hopefully someone can weigh in on it's pre-beaker population compared to the continent.  All I'm saying is that a larger, perhaps broad-headed element persisted longer in the north and west, pre-Beaker though.  If incoming proto-Beakers or Bell beakers (including a "Dinaric" or similiar meso-brachycephalic types) absorbed these western types then the western brachycephalic component would be become even more prominent in the short term, imo.  Actually, this type was primarily clustered in Britain and the Rhineland. As the Beaker period went on and into Celtic times, this initial Bronze age broad-head type became diluted possibly as more people from the east (further R1b waves?) arrived.  The Celts seemed to have reverted back to a more mesocephalic eastern Beaker type.
Certainly other factors were involved, this is just from a admixture standpoint.

By the time any "Beaker" population arrived, I think the previous mesolithic peoples were already adapted to a farming culture.  I don't think the mesolithic types were in remote areas as much at this point.  For example, Ertebolle transistioned into TRB by 4000.  The old farmer/forager frontier was probably more fluid, but these robust phenotypes persisted longer in the NW.

See here for the round-headed neolithic populations of western Europe.  Yes, it is Coon's work, but I think his take on the neolithic and metal ages are pretty straight-forward.  He mentions Switzerland, North France, Auvergne, and Belgium as areas where neolithic brachycephalic populations were important.  The Beakers would have moved through all of them.
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-IV11.htm


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Humanist on May 22, 2012, 12:19:49 PM

What were the Cucuteni-Tripolye like? Were the people of the late Cucuteni-Tripolye people different than the earlier versions?

While I'm asking, what about early IE possible folks in Anatolia?  The Hittites?

I have given up trying to tie cephalic indices with populations.  Evidence of too much plasticity, in my opinion.  For example, the populations of what is today Georgia, and the Armenian Highland, were apparently dolichocephalic and mesocephalic, 1500+ years ago.  Today, of course, they are brachycephalic.  Our nearest genetic cousins, the Iraqi Mandaeans, are long-headed.  While we are not.  

FWIW.  From Henry Field's “Ancient and Modern Man in Southwestern Asia.”

Quote
TABLE 23: CEPHALIC INDEX OF 375 HITTITE CRANIA   
Subdolichocephals   10.93 %
Mesocephals   12.53 %
Subbrachycephals   27.46 %
Brachycephals   14.93 %
Hyperbrachycephals   26.13 %
Ultrabrachycephals   8.00 %

Quite the variety.

Is there evidence of long headed skull in the Caucasus and Anatolia?

And what accounts for iranians (even azeri iranians) being so long headed?

Most of West Asia was dolichocephalic or mesocephalic in antiquity and in periods prior.  What made certain (mostly northern) modern populations nearly uniformly brachycephalic, I have not a clue.  There does not appear to be any intrusive genetic elements that could have impacted Druze, Alawites, Anatolian Turks, Caucasians, Armenians, Assyrians, and others, in the last, say, 1500 years.  Assyrians were dhimmis for nearly the entire period (with the rise of Islam).  Our genetic brothers to the central and south of Mesopotamia, remain largely dolichocephalic/mesocephalic.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 22, 2012, 01:39:06 PM
Probably all of the above, but the few papers I've seen mostly have data from the Danube corridor/Carpathian basin/Hungarian plain.  So, yes Romania would be a possibility.

The eastern beakers were more diverse physically.  It is more in the west where the large, broad-head types show up as a majority.  I think this can be attributed to larger remnant mesolithic populations surviving in the west away from the more entrenched farmers of SE Europe (think Hg.'s I1, I2, F, U5, etc.).  This is not going to exactly correlate with the travels of r1b, but along with Desideri's studies it does demonstrate that Bell Beakers were made up of various mobile people.

Here is a paper on Bell Beaker common ware showing the ceramic influences.  All from the east.
http://archiveouverte.unige.ch/downloader/pdf/tmp/tar5cka3cq9qj0efie0d3l2gp2/out.pdf
Also, one about BB sites in the east.  Notice the lack of horse remains compared to cattle on p. 193.
http://www.menhir-cz.eu/library/Turek-Dvorak-Peska2003.pdf

There seems to a few horse remains in figure 9, and I assume the ratio makes sense when you consider cattle was a source of food and horses probably weren't.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 22, 2012, 02:29:35 PM
Although they tend to be described as 'broad headed' I understand the beaker type skull is essentially a narrow one whose width is almost entirely down to a flattening at the rear which has shortened the length and widened to back part of the head.  The front of the head includin the forehead is meant to be narrow as is the face.  To me that sounds very very like plasticity and flattening of an otherwise long head and the shape sounds incredibly like the effects on babies.  I wonder if its some kind of lifestyle effect peculiar to the beaker way of life or simply a tradition of cradle practice.  The beaker groups seem to have an incredibly mobile lifestyle and must have been on the hoof and in boats and possibly living a less domestic lifestyle so lord knows what effect even this factor alone would have on phenotype.  

There could even have been some kind of deliberate aspect to this.  I read a very interesting article that the shape of the skull does to a substantial degree dictate facial form with a narrow skull tending to give a more projecting narrow face, more projecting nose, deeper set eyes etc while a wider sull tends to lead to a softer look with larger eyes, smaller nose etc.  There could have been some sort of deliberate attempt to manipulate skull development to produce a certain look relating to standard of beauty.

I found this on the web


Two extremes exist for the shape of the head:  the long, narrow (dolichocephalic) headform and the wide, short, globular (brachycephalic) headform.
The facial complex attaches to the basicranium and the early growing cranial floor is the template that establishes many of the dimensional, angular, and topographic characteristics of the face.
The dolichocephalic headform sets up a developing face that becomes narrow, long and protrusive.  This facial type is termed leptoprosopic.
The brachycephalic headform establishes a face that is more broad, but somewhat less protrusive.  This facial type is called euryprosopic.
The dolichocephalic nose is vertically longer and much more protrusive.  The nose sometimes "bends" to produce an aquiline ("Roman or Dick Tracy") type of convex nasal contour.
The pug-like brachycephalic nose is vertically and protrusively shorter.
Because the nasal part of the narrow (leptoprosopic) type of face is more protrusive, the external bony table of the contiguous forehead is correspondingly more sloping and the glabella and upper orbital rims tend to be mush more prominent.  The cheekbones are more prominent and the eyes are more deep-set.  The face is more angular and less flat.
The forehead of the wide (euryprosopic) facial type is more bulbous, upright, and the frontal sinus tends to be thinner.  The face is wider, flatter and less protrusive.  The cheekbones are squared.  Eyeballs appear more exophthalmic (proptotic, bulging).
Dolichocephalics tend to a retrusively placed mandible and lower lip with a retrognathic (convex) facial profile.  Posture of the head is more slumped.  The maxillary arch and palate is longer, narrower and deeper
In brachycephalics, the lower jaw tends to be variably more protrusive, with a greater tendency for a straighter or even concave facial profile and a more prominent appearing chin.  The mandible is more prominent in appearance.  Posture of the head is more erect. The maxillary arch and palate is shorter and more shallow.
The palate is a configurational projection of the anterior cranial fossa.  The configuration of the apical base of the maxillary dental arch, in turn, is established by the perimeter of the palate.
An intermediate headform, mesocephalic can occur.
In each headform category, a range typically exists for the expression of features.
The Dinaric Headform
A mixture between brachycephalic and dolichocephalic headforms.  Characterized by a long face and large nose but with a brachycephalic cranial index.
Although technically brachycephalic because it is anteroposteriorly short, it is primarily the posterior part of the dinaric head that has been brachycephalized.
Two basic variations exist, both of which involve bossing of the skull roof.  May be genetic or due to sleeping patterns.
The dinaric headform, with its variations and degrees of magnitude shows different malocclusion tendencies and responses to different treatment procedures.
The ears of the dinaric characteristically appear much closer to the back of the head because of the occipital flattening.
The anterior part of the skull retains the relative narrowness that characterizes the dolichocephalic pattern.
The form of the face is distinctively leptoprosopic.  The forehead is often sloping, the supraorbital ridges are prominent and the face is long and protrusive.  The nose is often large and often aquiline with a high nasal bridge.  The mandible is less retrusive, the face is less retrognathic.
Malocclusion in a dinaric will have a combination of structural features different from that in a dolichocephalic.
Extraoral and functional appliances have divergent responses in the different headform groups and subgroups.  Awareness of headform variations and facial differences is a fundamentally important consideration for orthodontic treatment planning.



So basically Dinaric and beaker type skull form is most akin to a dolichocephalic head with flattening/widening of the rear of the head.

In general the way skull shape changes from generation to generation with no known major gene flow and the way their were pan European alterations in head shape even in periods of limited migration makes me think the whole skull shape thing has to be handled with really extreme care.  


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: MHammers on May 22, 2012, 02:56:21 PM
Probably all of the above, but the few papers I've seen mostly have data from the Danube corridor/Carpathian basin/Hungarian plain.  So, yes Romania would be a possibility.

The eastern beakers were more diverse physically.  It is more in the west where the large, broad-head types show up as a majority.  I think this can be attributed to larger remnant mesolithic populations surviving in the west away from the more entrenched farmers of SE Europe (think Hg.'s I1, I2, F, U5, etc.).  This is not going to exactly correlate with the travels of r1b, but along with Desideri's studies it does demonstrate that Bell Beakers were made up of various mobile people.

Here is a paper on Bell Beaker common ware showing the ceramic influences.  All from the east.
http://archiveouverte.unige.ch/downloader/pdf/tmp/tar5cka3cq9qj0efie0d3l2gp2/out.pdf
Also, one about BB sites in the east.  Notice the lack of horse remains compared to cattle on p. 193.
http://www.menhir-cz.eu/library/Turek-Dvorak-Peska2003.pdf

There seems to a few horse remains in figure 9, and I assume the ratio makes sense when you consider cattle was a source of food and horses probably weren't.

That's the one.  It suggests that Bell Beakers there were more into sedentary stockbreeding than pastoralism much like the previous mixed farming cultures.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: MHammers on May 22, 2012, 03:08:32 PM
Although they tend to be described as 'broad headed' I understand the beaker type skull is essentially a narrow one whose width is almost entirely down to a flattening at the rear which has shortened the length and widened to back part of the head.  The front of the head includin the forehead is meant to be narrow as is the face.  To me that sounds very very like plasticity and flattening of an otherwise long head and the shape sounds incredibly like the effects on babies.  I wonder if its some kind of lifestyle effect peculiar to the beaker way of life or simply a tradition of cradle practice.  The beaker groups seem to have an incredibly mobile lifestyle and must have been on the hoof and in boats and possibly living a less domestic lifestyle so lord knows what effect even this factor alone would have on phenotype.  

There could even have been some kind of deliberate aspect to this.  I read a very interesting article that the shape of the skull does to a substantial degree dictate facial form with a narrow skull tending to give a more projecting narrow face, more projecting nose, deeper set eyes etc while a wider sull tends to lead to a softer look with larger eyes, smaller nose etc.  There could have been some sort of deliberate attempt to manipulate skull development to produce a certain look relating to standard of beauty.

I found this on the web


Two extremes exist for the shape of the head:  the long, narrow (dolichocephalic) headform and the wide, short, globular (brachycephalic) headform.
The facial complex attaches to the basicranium and the early growing cranial floor is the template that establishes many of the dimensional, angular, and topographic characteristics of the face.
The dolichocephalic headform sets up a developing face that becomes narrow, long and protrusive.  This facial type is termed leptoprosopic.
The brachycephalic headform establishes a face that is more broad, but somewhat less protrusive.  This facial type is called euryprosopic.
The dolichocephalic nose is vertically longer and much more protrusive.  The nose sometimes "bends" to produce an aquiline ("Roman or Dick Tracy") type of convex nasal contour.
The pug-like brachycephalic nose is vertically and protrusively shorter.
Because the nasal part of the narrow (leptoprosopic) type of face is more protrusive, the external bony table of the contiguous forehead is correspondingly more sloping and the glabella and upper orbital rims tend to be mush more prominent.  The cheekbones are more prominent and the eyes are more deep-set.  The face is more angular and less flat.
The forehead of the wide (euryprosopic) facial type is more bulbous, upright, and the frontal sinus tends to be thinner.  The face is wider, flatter and less protrusive.  The cheekbones are squared.  Eyeballs appear more exophthalmic (proptotic, bulging).
Dolichocephalics tend to a retrusively placed mandible and lower lip with a retrognathic (convex) facial profile.  Posture of the head is more slumped.  The maxillary arch and palate is longer, narrower and deeper
In brachycephalics, the lower jaw tends to be variably more protrusive, with a greater tendency for a straighter or even concave facial profile and a more prominent appearing chin.  The mandible is more prominent in appearance.  Posture of the head is more erect. The maxillary arch and palate is shorter and more shallow.
The palate is a configurational projection of the anterior cranial fossa.  The configuration of the apical base of the maxillary dental arch, in turn, is established by the perimeter of the palate.
An intermediate headform, mesocephalic can occur.
In each headform category, a range typically exists for the expression of features.
The Dinaric Headform
A mixture between brachycephalic and dolichocephalic headforms.  Characterized by a long face and large nose but with a brachycephalic cranial index.
Although technically brachycephalic because it is anteroposteriorly short, it is primarily the posterior part of the dinaric head that has been brachycephalized.
Two basic variations exist, both of which involve bossing of the skull roof.  May be genetic or due to sleeping patterns.
The dinaric headform, with its variations and degrees of magnitude shows different malocclusion tendencies and responses to different treatment procedures.
The ears of the dinaric characteristically appear much closer to the back of the head because of the occipital flattening.
The anterior part of the skull retains the relative narrowness that characterizes the dolichocephalic pattern.
The form of the face is distinctively leptoprosopic.  The forehead is often sloping, the supraorbital ridges are prominent and the face is long and protrusive.  The nose is often large and often aquiline with a high nasal bridge.  The mandible is less retrusive, the face is less retrognathic.
Malocclusion in a dinaric will have a combination of structural features different from that in a dolichocephalic.
Extraoral and functional appliances have divergent responses in the different headform groups and subgroups.  Awareness of headform variations and facial differences is a fundamentally important consideration for orthodontic treatment planning.



So basically Dinaric and beaker type skull form is most akin to a dolichocephalic head with flattening/widening of the rear of the head.

In general the way skull shape changes from generation to generation with no known major gene flow and the way their were pan European alterations in head shape even in periods of limited migration makes me think the whole skull shape thing has to be handled with really extreme care.  

I agree about using caution.  It is just one resource we can use to form a big picture.  I would just add that the first observation of "Bell Beaker" types and the marked increase in brachycephaly during the later neolithic, is a clue that something was happening in the population dynamics of SE Europe. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 22, 2012, 04:33:54 PM
In fact so much of the beaker head shape resembles positional brachycephally that you really got to wonder 

http://www.healthylittleheads.org/What-is-Brachycephaly.asp
They were a nomadic people? Maybe this is how you drag infants around on trips. It beats carrying them.
http://clio.missouristate.edu/lburt/Images510/travois.jpg


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 22, 2012, 04:54:56 PM
Although they tend to be described as 'broad headed' I understand the beaker type skull is essentially a narrow one whose width is almost entirely down to a flattening at the rear which has shortened the length and widened to back part of the head.  The front of the head includin the forehead is meant to be narrow as is the face.  To me that sounds very very like plasticity and flattening of an otherwise long head and the shape sounds incredibly like the effects on babies.  I wonder if its some kind of lifestyle effect peculiar to the beaker way of life or simply a tradition of cradle practice.  The beaker groups seem to have an incredibly mobile lifestyle and must have been on the hoof and in boats and possibly living a less domestic lifestyle so lord knows what effect even this factor alone would have on phenotype.  

There could even have been some kind of deliberate aspect to this.  I read a very interesting article that the shape of the skull does to a substantial degree dictate facial form with a narrow skull tending to give a more projecting narrow face, more projecting nose, deeper set eyes etc while a wider sull tends to lead to a softer look with larger eyes, smaller nose etc.  There could have been some sort of deliberate attempt to manipulate skull development to produce a certain look relating to standard of beauty.

I found this on the web


Two extremes exist for the shape of the head:  the long, narrow (dolichocephalic) headform and the wide, short, globular (brachycephalic) headform.
The facial complex attaches to the basicranium and the early growing cranial floor is the template that establishes many of the dimensional, angular, and topographic characteristics of the face.
The dolichocephalic headform sets up a developing face that becomes narrow, long and protrusive.  This facial type is termed leptoprosopic.
The brachycephalic headform establishes a face that is more broad, but somewhat less protrusive.  This facial type is called euryprosopic.
The dolichocephalic nose is vertically longer and much more protrusive.  The nose sometimes "bends" to produce an aquiline ("Roman or Dick Tracy") type of convex nasal contour.
The pug-like brachycephalic nose is vertically and protrusively shorter.
Because the nasal part of the narrow (leptoprosopic) type of face is more protrusive, the external bony table of the contiguous forehead is correspondingly more sloping and the glabella and upper orbital rims tend to be mush more prominent.  The cheekbones are more prominent and the eyes are more deep-set.  The face is more angular and less flat.
The forehead of the wide (euryprosopic) facial type is more bulbous, upright, and the frontal sinus tends to be thinner.  The face is wider, flatter and less protrusive.  The cheekbones are squared.  Eyeballs appear more exophthalmic (proptotic, bulging).
Dolichocephalics tend to a retrusively placed mandible and lower lip with a retrognathic (convex) facial profile.  Posture of the head is more slumped.  The maxillary arch and palate is longer, narrower and deeper
In brachycephalics, the lower jaw tends to be variably more protrusive, with a greater tendency for a straighter or even concave facial profile and a more prominent appearing chin.  The mandible is more prominent in appearance.  Posture of the head is more erect. The maxillary arch and palate is shorter and more shallow.
The palate is a configurational projection of the anterior cranial fossa.  The configuration of the apical base of the maxillary dental arch, in turn, is established by the perimeter of the palate.
An intermediate headform, mesocephalic can occur.
In each headform category, a range typically exists for the expression of features.
The Dinaric Headform
A mixture between brachycephalic and dolichocephalic headforms.  Characterized by a long face and large nose but with a brachycephalic cranial index.
Although technically brachycephalic because it is anteroposteriorly short, it is primarily the posterior part of the dinaric head that has been brachycephalized.
Two basic variations exist, both of which involve bossing of the skull roof.  May be genetic or due to sleeping patterns.
The dinaric headform, with its variations and degrees of magnitude shows different malocclusion tendencies and responses to different treatment procedures.
The ears of the dinaric characteristically appear much closer to the back of the head because of the occipital flattening.
The anterior part of the skull retains the relative narrowness that characterizes the dolichocephalic pattern.
The form of the face is distinctively leptoprosopic.  The forehead is often sloping, the supraorbital ridges are prominent and the face is long and protrusive.  The nose is often large and often aquiline with a high nasal bridge.  The mandible is less retrusive, the face is less retrognathic.
Malocclusion in a dinaric will have a combination of structural features different from that in a dolichocephalic.
Extraoral and functional appliances have divergent responses in the different headform groups and subgroups.  Awareness of headform variations and facial differences is a fundamentally important consideration for orthodontic treatment planning.



So basically Dinaric and beaker type skull form is most akin to a dolichocephalic head with flattening/widening of the rear of the head.

In general the way skull shape changes from generation to generation with no known major gene flow and the way their were pan European alterations in head shape even in periods of limited migration makes me think the whole skull shape thing has to be handled with really extreme care.  

I agree about using caution.  It is just one resource we can use to form a big picture.  I would just add that the first observation of "Bell Beaker" types and the marked increase in brachycephaly during the later neolithic, is a clue that something was happening in the population dynamics of SE Europe.  

As I posted before, if the beakers are the source of L51 and downstream, their spread was very rapid and they had a penchant for interacting with other beaker groups.  I would think this involved intermarriage too.  They may around 2400BC (when beaker was reaching its widest extent) have still seen themselves as a clan who may well have even known the name of their common early beaker GGGGG grandfather L51* ancestor.  They maybe even had a lineage name rather like the Gaelic clans had.  Its not that far fetched.  The rapidly branching group actually puts me in mind of an ultra-mobile version of the later clans we see in Ireland and the Celtic world.  So, the beaker people in say 2400BC really were an extended family of 6th cousins if the whole R1b model is correct.  If they had a tendency to network between other beaker groups of distant cousins and intermarried alliance-style with the daughters of distant cousins, it might have been that some family likeness remained for a number of centuries until the big network broke down into smaller networks and more localised interactions.  


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: MHammers on May 22, 2012, 05:03:58 PM
In fact so much of the beaker head shape resembles positional brachycephally that you really got to wonder  

http://www.healthylittleheads.org/What-is-Brachycephaly.asp
They were a nomadic people? Maybe this is how you drag infants around on trips. It beats carrying them.
http://clio.missouristate.edu/lburt/Images510/travois.jpg

They might have had something like the papoose board American Indians used for easy transport of small children.  Definitely a possibility for a mobile population, unfortunately I don't think anything like this has been found yet.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 22, 2012, 05:24:14 PM
Jean M, are saying something different here?    My guess is that R1b in the original Cucuteni-Tripolye would have been very light.  I see you think that R1b would NOT be "solid" within Cucuteni-Tripolye, but that is not the same thing.  Are you saying that you think R1b was in the majority or the largest or even the most significant element of the Y hg's in Cucuteni-Tripolye?

We simply don't know the proportions of Y-DNA haplogroups in C-T, let alone with whom exactly they mixed and what the result was. Bear in mind that surfing effect and/or founder effect could completely change the proportions of haplogroups between a source population and offshoot populations (quite apart from new mutations arising from old stock in the actual process of migration.) So I'm not taking any bets, except on a mixture.



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 22, 2012, 05:52:06 PM
In fact so much of the beaker head shape resembles positional brachycephally that you really got to wonder 

http://www.healthylittleheads.org/What-is-Brachycephaly.asp
They were a nomadic people? Maybe this is how you drag infants around on trips. It beats carrying them.
http://clio.missouristate.edu/lburt/Images510/travois.jpg

One thing is clear is they were incredibly mobile if the isotopic stuff is anything to go by and that must have had implications on how they lived and brought up families etc.  


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 22, 2012, 06:01:49 PM
Quote from: Mikewww link=topic=10580.msg131302#msg131302
Do we know R1b was in Corded Ware cultures?  I don't think this is necessarily so.

My mistake. You are right. I was getting confused with Urnfield. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 22, 2012, 07:33:31 PM

What were the Cucuteni-Tripolye like? Were the people of the late Cucuteni-Tripolye people different than the earlier versions?

While I'm asking, what about early IE possible folks in Anatolia?  The Hittites?

I have given up trying to tie cephalic indices with populations.  Evidence of too much plasticity, in my opinion.  For example, the populations of what is today Georgia, and the Armenian Highland, were apparently dolichocephalic and mesocephalic, 1500+ years ago.  Today, of course, they are brachycephalic.  Our nearest genetic cousins, the Iraqi Mandaeans, are long-headed.  While we are not.  

FWIW.  From Henry Field's “Ancient and Modern Man in Southwestern Asia.”

Quote
TABLE 23: CEPHALIC INDEX OF 375 HITTITE CRANIA   
Subdolichocephals   10.93 %
Mesocephals   12.53 %
Subbrachycephals   27.46 %
Brachycephals   14.93 %
Hyperbrachycephals   26.13 %
Ultrabrachycephals   8.00 %

Quite the variety.

Is there evidence of long headed skull in the Caucasus and Anatolia?

And what accounts for iranians (even azeri iranians) being so long headed?

Most of West Asia was dolichocephalic or mesocephalic in antiquity and in periods prior.  What made certain (mostly northern) modern populations nearly uniformly brachycephalic, I have not a clue.  There does not appear to be any intrusive genetic elements that could have impacted Druze, Alawites, Anatolian Turks, Caucasians, Armenians, Assyrians, and others, in the last, say, 1500 years.  Assyrians were dhimmis for nearly the entire period (with the rise of Islam).  Our genetic brothers to the central and south of Mesopotamia, remain largely dolichocephalic/mesocephalic.

I just don't believe that. Mountain people always tend to be not as long headed which makes me doubt Armenians being anything other than short and broad faced. I have been told by Iranian friends that this even appli es to Iran where Persians tend to be dolichocephalic but Iranian Azeris due to their surroundings are mesocephalic.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 22, 2012, 07:42:10 PM
well done spotting the similarity between the Bell Beaker and Andronovo mtDNAs. As you know, Andronovo groups originated in modern Poland,

No I don't know that at all Polako. : ) You can scarcely be blamed for thinking that, since anti-migrationism has ruled archaeology for decades, and the standard view of Corded Ware has been that it sprang locally from the TRB, which sprang locally from hunter-gatherers. Now we have evidence both genetic and anthropological that the TRB actually was the result of farmers fleeing north from the Balkans as the climate changed c. 4000 BC. The Corded Ware people look completely different from them and more like hunter-gatherer types, which was one of the reasons people thought there was continuity from local hunter-gatherers right through to Corded Ware. Not so. The Corded Ware types were derived from Yamnaya and probably some earlier drift northwards from the steppe.

So I would expect a resemblance between Corded Ware, Bell Beaker and  Andronovo mtDNA haplogroups, because they were all from the same mixture of sources.





Thank you. Andronovo groups do not come from Poland. Is the similarity in Andronovo mtdna and Bell beaker mtdna due to shared Neolithic bell beaker influence or due to shared northern hunter gathrer nomad influence?

Meaning did the andronovo people bring their own northeast european women (uessing mtdna u4/u5) or did they migrate as men to central asia picking up bell beaker and central asian neolithic and east eurasian women?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 22, 2012, 07:48:08 PM
Jean M, are saying something different here?    My guess is that R1b in the original Cucuteni-Tripolye would have been very light.  I see you think that R1b would NOT be "solid" within Cucuteni-Tripolye, but that is not the same thing.  Are you saying that you think R1b was in the majority or the largest or even the most significant element of the Y hg's in Cucuteni-Tripolye?

We simply don't know the proportions of Y-DNA haplogroups in C-T, let alone with whom exactly they mixed and what the result was. Bear in mind that surfing effect and/or founder effect could completely change the proportions of haplogroups between a source population and offshoot populations (quite apart from new mutations arising from old stock in the actual process of migration.) So I'm not taking any bets, except on a mixture.

Yes, it could be a bit tricky.  I could see a scenario where Usatovo steppes people imposed hedgemony over the suffering (crop failure/climate) Cucuteni-Tripolye farmers/dairymen and probably made allies with some of them as part of the hedgemony.  The turncoat (but smart) Cucuteni families learned some new stuff about horses, fighting, or what have you but perhaps didn't like playing second fiddle.... so headed west.   This is a very speculative endeavor, no doubt about it. The integration process could have several scenarios.

... but I still have a hard time accepting so many R1b IE speaking people way out west (Atlantic fringe & Gaul) with very little of the IE "base" R1a1 folks accompanying them, unless instead some R1b was part of the the IE "base" by the time it hit the Cucuteni-Tripolye.  It's not just the IE culture that went west, but some apparently NOT small, NOT gracile bone structured folks too (who don't match the Early Neolithic farmers.) If the Beakers were these folks, we know there was at least some R1b among them.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 22, 2012, 09:37:01 PM
This first study on DNA Bell Beaker seems to show that it is characterized by the arrival of a new male population in sharp contrast with a genetic continuity in the female lineages.

It might seem like that at first glance, but the study looked very closely at mtDNA U5. It found that modern U5 does not descend from the Mesolithic and Neolithic U5 so far discovered in aDNA. Continuity does not appear.

It is highly likely that many European hunter-gatherer lineages died out in both the direct female and direct male lines. However in some places hunter-gatherers survived successfully because farmers were not in competition with them (the far north), or because they adopted farming or pastoralism (as on the riverine fringes of the Pontic-Caspian steppe). The hunter-gatherer lineages from the latter region burst upon the wider European scene in the Copper Age.

MtDNA U2 appears at Kostenki 14 [Markina Gora], Russia  in 30,000 BP. It has not appeared in any Mesolithic or Neolithic aDNA from Europe.

U2 today is scattered at low frequencies in populations from South and Western Asia, Europe and North Africa, with its oldest branches (U2a-c) in South Asia. That is a clue that people carrying U2 had spent a long time in the warm south before a group split off to travel north into Europe, where the mutation creating U2e probably occurred. U2e is mainly found in those of European descent. It seems likely that U2 moved north into what is now Russia in the first instance and that U2e was born somewhere in East Europe.  

Both Central and NW south asia have U2e.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 22, 2012, 09:38:21 PM
Jean M, are saying something different here?    My guess is that R1b in the original Cucuteni-Tripolye would have been very light.  I see you think that R1b would NOT be "solid" within Cucuteni-Tripolye, but that is not the same thing.  Are you saying that you think R1b was in the majority or the largest or even the most significant element of the Y hg's in Cucuteni-Tripolye?

We simply don't know the proportions of Y-DNA haplogroups in C-T, let alone with whom exactly they mixed and what the result was. Bear in mind that surfing effect and/or founder effect could completely change the proportions of haplogroups between a source population and offshoot populations (quite apart from new mutations arising from old stock in the actual process of migration.) So I'm not taking any bets, except on a mixture.

Yes, it could be a bit tricky.  I could see a scenario where Usatovo steppes people imposed hedgemony over the suffering (crop failure/climate) Cucuteni-Tripolye farmers/dairymen and probably made allies with some of them as part of the hedgemony.  The turncoat (but smart) Cucuteni families learned some new stuff about horses, fighting, or what have you but perhaps didn't like playing second fiddle.... so headed west.   This is a very speculative endeavor, no doubt about it. The integration process could have several scenarios.

... but I still have a hard time accepting so many R1b IE speaking people way out west (Atlantic fringe & Gaul) with very little of the IE "base" R1a1 folks accompanying them, unless instead some R1b was part of the the IE "base" by the time it hit the Cucuteni-Tripolye.  It's not just the IE culture that went west, but some apparently NOT small, NOT gracile bone structured folks too (who don't match the Early Neolithic farmers.) If the Beakers were these folks, we know there was at least some R1b among them.

I guess people will never stop trying to connect IE and R1b no matter how much evidence has been presented against it.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 22, 2012, 09:42:01 PM
All 6 samples are different, but at least 4 of the 6 look very North-Eurasian in origin - probably carrying a lot of DNA that might be hunter-gatherer. (W5, I1a1, U5, U2)  

What are other people's thoughts on this?

What they are saying about the U5 is extremely interesting. They have looked at Mesolithic and Neolithic U5 previously found in Europe and concluded

Quote
that these lineages did not continue into the present. Based on this haplotype distribution, due to genetic drift or some demographic event modern U5 haplotypes do not appear to have had significant contributions from the Mesolithic/Neolithic gene pool. At least for this haplogroup, it appears there is no simple story of continuity from the Neolithic to the present and that central Europe may have experienced complex demographic events since the Neolithic involving groups that harbored distinctive maternal lineages  

I'm not all that surprised, as I guessed that much of present U5 arrived with the Indo-Europeans, but I have yet to take in the data on where they got their modern samples. I would expect continuity in certain areas of Europe, notably the eastern fringe.

Intresting about the U5 connecting. Would you associate Bell Beakers with Celts?

Does the shared mtdna T indicate tripoyle admixture in andronovo or bell beaker admixture?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 22, 2012, 09:51:00 PM
I guess people will never stop trying to connect IE and R1b no matter how much evidence has been presented against it.

Care to list them here, because I haven't seen any evidence/proof.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 22, 2012, 09:53:24 PM
I guess people will never stop trying to connect IE and R1b no matter how much evidence has been presented against it.

Care to list them here, because I haven't seen any evidence/proof.

Haha seriously? Nobody has connected R1a and IE. The connection is clear. Why should I argue with a theory embraced by no one but Western Europeans. Whats the difference between accepting that theory and the garbage out of india theory? Both motivated by racism and nationalism. But neither supported by science. IE comes from the steepe and is connected with R1a not R1b.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: NealtheRed on May 22, 2012, 09:55:43 PM

Haha seriously? Nobody has connected R1a and IE. The connection is clear. Why should I argue with a theory embraced by no one but Western Europeans. Whats the difference between accepting that theory and the garbage out of india theory? Both motivated by racism and nationalism. But neither supported by science. IE comes from the steepe and is connected with R1a not R1b.

Don't be jealous now.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 22, 2012, 10:04:08 PM

Haha seriously? Nobody has connected R1a and IE. The connection is clear. Why should I argue with a theory embraced by no one but Western Europeans. Whats the difference between accepting that theory and the garbage out of india theory? Both motivated by racism and nationalism. But neither supported by science. IE comes from the steepe and is connected with R1a not R1b.

Don't be jealous now.

Jealous of what?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 22, 2012, 10:10:58 PM
I guess people will never stop trying to connect IE and R1b no matter how much evidence has been presented against it.

Care to list them here, because I haven't seen any evidence/proof.

Haha seriously?

Yes, seriously.

Nobody has connected R1a and IE. The connection is clear. Why should I argue with a theory embraced by no one but Western Europeans. Whats the difference between accepting that theory and the garbage out of india theory? Both motivated by racism and nationalism. But neither supported by science. IE comes from the steepe and is connected with R1a not R1b.

I think you are going off on a tangent. I make no attempt to disconnect R1a with some forms of IE languages. To the contrary, I agree that R1a was involved at some early stage.  However, it is an illogical leap to conclude that no other haplogroups were involved.

Pray tell, per Richard R's request, please list your evidence and logic rather than go off on tangents about politics or whatever.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Humanist on May 22, 2012, 10:26:26 PM

I just don't believe that. Mountain people always tend to be not as long headed which makes me doubt Armenians being anything other than short and broad faced. I have been told by Iranian friends that this even appli es to Iran where Persians tend to be dolichocephalic but Iranian Azeris due to their surroundings are mesocephalic.

There is not much to believe or not to believe.  There are crania, and the crania are not, generally speaking, brachycephalic. 

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=868277&postcount=193 (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=868277&postcount=193)


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 22, 2012, 11:11:44 PM
I guess people will never stop trying to connect IE and R1b no matter how much evidence has been presented against it.

Care to list them here, because I haven't seen any evidence/proof.

Haha seriously?

Yes, seriously.

Nobody has connected R1a and IE. The connection is clear. Why should I argue with a theory embraced by no one but Western Europeans. Whats the difference between accepting that theory and the garbage out of india theory? Both motivated by racism and nationalism. But neither supported by science. IE comes from the steepe and is connected with R1a not R1b.

I think you are going off on a tangent. I make no attempt to disconnect R1a with some forms of IE languages. To the contrary, I agree that R1a was involved at some early stage.  However, it is an illogical leap to conclude that no other haplogroups were involved.

Pray tell, per Richard R's request, please list your evidence and logic rather than go off on tangents about politics or whatever.


Polako has aleady done it. Pretty much every kurdgan type sample has turned up R1a. All the tarim samples, tocharians, scythians etc all R1a. How is that the case? Do you think steepe nomads got their language from farmers they conquered?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: A_Wode on May 22, 2012, 11:55:40 PM
I guess people will never stop trying to connect IE and R1b no matter how much evidence has been presented against it.

Care to list them here, because I haven't seen any evidence/proof.

Haha seriously? Nobody has connected R1a and IE. The connection is clear. Why should I argue with a theory embraced by no one but Western Europeans. Whats the difference between accepting that theory and the garbage out of india theory? Both motivated by racism and nationalism. But neither supported by science. IE comes from the steepe and is connected with R1a not R1b.

Try to provide evidence next time. Thanks. Yes, there is evidence of Iranic rituals in the steppe, but so what?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: A_Wode on May 22, 2012, 11:57:05 PM

Polako has aleady done it. Pretty much every kurdgan type sample has turned up R1a. All the tarim samples, tocharians, scythians etc all R1a. How is that the case? Do you think steepe nomads got their language from farmers they conquered?

Sadly, nobody from the east has ever conquered the west. In fact it's the reverse, but nice try and better luck next time.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 23, 2012, 12:48:21 AM
I guess people will never stop trying to connect IE and R1b no matter how much evidence has been presented against it.

Care to list them here, because I haven't seen any evidence/proof.

Haha seriously?

Yes, seriously.

Nobody has connected R1a and IE. The connection is clear. Why should I argue with a theory embraced by no one but Western Europeans. Whats the difference between accepting that theory and the garbage out of india theory? Both motivated by racism and nationalism. But neither supported by science. IE comes from the steepe and is connected with R1a not R1b.

I think you are going off on a tangent. I make no attempt to disconnect R1a with some forms of IE languages. To the contrary, I agree that R1a was involved at some early stage.  However, it is an illogical leap to conclude that no other haplogroups were involved.

Pray tell, per Richard R's request, please list your evidence and logic rather than go off on tangents about politics or whatever.


Polako has aleady done it. Pretty much every kurdgan type sample has turned up R1a. All the tarim samples, tocharians, scythians etc all R1a. How is that the case? Do you think steepe nomads got their language from farmers they conquered?

Interestedinhistory, please follow the conversation and don't go off on to your own tangents, raves or whatever.

You were challenged on this.

I guess people will never stop trying to connect IE and R1b no matter how much evidence has been presented against it.
Care to list them here, because I haven't seen any evidence/proof.

Please answer.  R1a may very well be connected to IE. That's fine. I tend to agree, but that by no means provides any evidence that no other haplogroups were part of the early stages of IE.

If you don't haven any evidence that R1b can't be a part of early IE, please explain it or just admit you don't.  That's okay.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 23, 2012, 04:11:54 AM
Is the similarity in Andronovo mtdna and Bell beaker mtdna due to shared Neolithic bell beaker influence or due to shared northern hunter gatherer nomad influence?

Meaning did the andronovo people bring their own northeast european women (guessing mtdna u4/u5) or did they migrate as men to central asia picking up bell beaker and central asian neolithic and east eurasian women?

The mtDNA found in Andronovo can be seen in my Western Eurasian Ancient DNA (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml) table. As you can see for yourself, it is exactly what we would expect from a mixture of Western Eurasian hunter-gatherers and a Neolithic population rooted in the Near East. It includes U4, U5, and most interestingly U2e, which appears to have spread with Indo-Europeans. It also includes H6, K2b, T1, and the interesting T2a1b1 from Cucuteni, mentioned above.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 23, 2012, 08:24:24 AM

Polako has aleady done it. Pretty much every kurdgan type sample has turned up R1a. All the tarim samples, tocharians, scythians etc all R1a. How is that the case? Do you think steepe nomads got their language from farmers they conquered?

Sadly, nobody from the east has ever conquered the west. In fact it's the reverse, but nice try and better luck next time.

Believe whatever you want. We are all communicating in IE languages which come from Eastern Europe.  Polako has posted enough about R1a's connecton to IE.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 23, 2012, 08:26:21 AM
I guess people will never stop trying to connect IE and R1b no matter how much evidence has been presented against it.

Care to list them here, because I haven't seen any evidence/proof.

Haha seriously?

Yes, seriously.

Nobody has connected R1a and IE. The connection is clear. Why should I argue with a theory embraced by no one but Western Europeans. Whats the difference between accepting that theory and the garbage out of india theory? Both motivated by racism and nationalism. But neither supported by science. IE comes from the steepe and is connected with R1a not R1b.

I think you are going off on a tangent. I make no attempt to disconnect R1a with some forms of IE languages. To the contrary, I agree that R1a was involved at some early stage.  However, it is an illogical leap to conclude that no other haplogroups were involved.

Pray tell, per Richard R's request, please list your evidence and logic rather than go off on tangents about politics or whatever.


Polako has aleady done it. Pretty much every kurdgan type sample has turned up R1a. All the tarim samples, tocharians, scythians etc all R1a. How is that the case? Do you think steepe nomads got their language from farmers they conquered?

Interestedinhistory, please follow the conversation and don't go off on to your own tangents, raves or whatever.

You were challenged on this.

I guess people will never stop trying to connect IE and R1b no matter how much evidence has been presented against it.
Care to list them here, because I haven't seen any evidence/proof.

Please answer.  R1a may very well be connected to IE. That's fine. I tend to agree, but that by no means provides any evidence that no other haplogroups were part of the early stages of IE.

If you don't haven any evidence that R1b can't be a part of early IE, please explain it or just admit you don't.  That's okay.

I am sure R1b had a role with spreading IE. But the origins do not lie with R1b. Ydna J2 helped spread IE languages too yet very few people would place its role/importance alongside R1a.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 23, 2012, 08:27:43 AM
I guess people will never stop trying to connect IE and R1b no matter how much evidence has been presented against it.

Care to list them here, because I haven't seen any evidence/proof.

Haha seriously?

Yes, seriously.

Nobody has connected R1a and IE. The connection is clear. Why should I argue with a theory embraced by no one but Western Europeans. Whats the difference between accepting that theory and the garbage out of india theory? Both motivated by racism and nationalism. But neither supported by science. IE comes from the steepe and is connected with R1a not R1b.

I think you are going off on a tangent. I make no attempt to disconnect R1a with some forms of IE languages. To the contrary, I agree that R1a was involved at some early stage.  However, it is an illogical leap to conclude that no other haplogroups were involved.

Pray tell, per Richard R's request, please list your evidence and logic rather than go off on tangents about politics or whatever.


Polako has aleady done it. Pretty much every kurdgan type sample has turned up R1a. All the tarim samples, tocharians, scythians etc all R1a. How is that the case? Do you think steepe nomads got their language from farmers they conquered?

Interestedinhistory, please follow the conversation and don't go off on to your own tangents, raves or whatever.

You were challenged on this.

I guess people will never stop trying to connect IE and R1b no matter how much evidence has been presented against it.
Care to list them here, because I haven't seen any evidence/proof.

Please answer.  R1a may very well be connected to IE. That's fine. I tend to agree, but that by no means provides any evidence that no other haplogroups were part of the early stages of IE.

If you don't haven any evidence that R1b can't be a part of early IE, please explain it or just admit you don't.  That's okay.

I already answered. When Corded ware, andronovo, yamna , tarim basin, scythian samples have already come back R1a or will most likely come back as R1a what else is needed.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 23, 2012, 08:33:35 AM
Is the similarity in Andronovo mtdna and Bell beaker mtdna due to shared Neolithic bell beaker influence or due to shared northern hunter gatherer nomad influence?

Meaning did the andronovo people bring their own northeast european women (guessing mtdna u4/u5) or did they migrate as men to central asia picking up bell beaker and central asian neolithic and east eurasian women?

The mtDNA found in Andronovo can be seen in my Western Eurasian Ancient DNA (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml) table. As you can see for yourself, it is exactly what we would expect from a mixture of Western Eurasian hunter-gatherers and a Neolithic population rooted in the Near East. It includes U4, U5, and most interestingly U2e, which appears to have spread with Indo-Europeans. It also includes H6, K2b, T1, and the interesting T2a1b1 from Cucuteni, mentioned above.

Thanks for the link.Would you put U2e in the group with hunter-gatherers and U4/U5? I also suspect some of the West Eurasian lineages in Andronovo were from Central Asia's Iranian Neolithic in addition to hunter gatherer and Cucuteni ones. H5a also seems connected to the spread of IE.

What do  you think of mtdna W? I believe I finds its peak in Northern Pakistan and a second peak among some Uralic and Slavic population.  Does that seem like a IE hunter gatherer lineage?

Also what does the Kazakhstan mtdna from 1400-1000 BC represent? T, HV, I, H, U5 mainly. Looks very West Asian like something you would find among armenians or iranians. Is there any chance this is related to the Botai culture?

And later on the found H, W and U1 in Kazakhstan. Looking like a migration from somewhere further south.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 23, 2012, 09:40:21 AM
I already answered. When Corded ware, andronovo, yamna , tarim basin, scythian samples have already come back R1a or will most likely come back as R1a what else is needed.

You are stating the obvious. Most will agree that R1a is the perfect fit for the spread of IE in eastern Europe and further to the east. However, R1a is a poor candidate for the spread of IE to Western Europe. That is where R1b comes in. More than likely R1a and R1b were in close proximity for a long time and both spoke a similar proto-IE language before going off on their separate ways.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 23, 2012, 09:54:08 AM
I already answered. When Corded ware, andronovo, yamna , tarim basin, scythian samples have already come back R1a or will most likely come back as R1a what else is needed.

You are stating the obvious. Most will agree that R1a is the perfect fit for the spread of IE in eastern Europe and further to the east. However, R1a is a poor candidate for the spread of IE to Western Europe. That is where R1b comes in. More than likely R1a and R1b were in close proximity for a long time and both spoke a similar proto-IE language before going off on their separate ways.

Spread is different from origins. R1b most likely never spoke proto IE. R1b spread the language to Western Europe but they are not the source of it.

Your point would be more valid if the origins of PIE were in Western Europe. But since hehy were probably around Yamna/the steepe we will see who is right when the Yamna study comes out.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 23, 2012, 10:22:07 AM
I already answered. When Corded ware, andronovo, yamna , tarim basin, scythian samples have already come back R1a or will most likely come back as R1a what else is needed.

You are stating the obvious. Most will agree that R1a is the perfect fit for the spread of IE in eastern Europe and further to the east. However, R1a is a poor candidate for the spread of IE to Western Europe. That is where R1b comes in. More than likely R1a and R1b were in close proximity for a long time and both spoke a similar proto-IE language before going off on their separate ways.

Spread is different from origins. R1b most likely never spoke proto IE. R1b spread the language to Western Europe but they are not the source of it.

Your point would be more valid if the origins of PIE were in Western Europe. But since hehy were probably around Yamna/the steepe we will see who is right when the Yamna study comes out.

You do realize that the highest branches of R1a and R1b are probably a few thousand years older than the Yamna Culture, right?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 23, 2012, 10:45:07 AM
I already answered. When Corded ware, andronovo, yamna , tarim basin, scythian samples have already come back R1a or will most likely come back as R1a what else is needed.

You are stating the obvious. Most will agree that R1a is the perfect fit for the spread of IE in eastern Europe and further to the east. However, R1a is a poor candidate for the spread of IE to Western Europe. That is where R1b comes in. More than likely R1a and R1b were in close proximity for a long time and both spoke a similar proto-IE language before going off on their separate ways.

Spread is different from origins. R1b most likely never spoke proto IE. R1b spread the language to Western Europe but they are not the source of it.

Your point would be more valid if the origins of PIE were in Western Europe. But since hehy were probably around Yamna/the steepe we will see who is right when the Yamna study comes out.

Is your point that R1a is the sole source for the original PIE speakers? It's possible, but I don't necessarily agree. Is that your point? If so, what is the evidence that R1a is the sole source?  

You might want to consider that the PIE homeland territory is not totally agreed upon.  You might also want to consider that even a Pontic Steppes PIE homeland takes into coverage a very large area with multiple cultures over multiple timeframes. David Anthony makes the point that Yamna is not a singular culture.  It is an horizon of cultures.  Timing-wise, per Richard R, you might want to consider that it is quite likely that that R1a and R1b are both older than PIE and both of a central Eruasian origin. Of course, at one time their lineages are one.. the time of the R1 TMRCA, which Karafet estimates to be 18.5k ybp. Are you claiming R1b (M343) is as young or younger than PIE?

Interested, you state
Quote
Your point would be more valid if the origins of PIE were in Western Europe
Implicit in your statement is an assumption that R1b (M343) is of Western European origin. Are you claiming R1b is of Western European origin?  Please be specific.

If you recognize that answering these questions gets you deeper into logic traps, that's okay. Just admit you don't have much evidence. There is no shame in changing your mind.  I used to think R1b (M343) was the prevalent Y hg of Cro-Magnon men in Europe. I was wrong and no longer think so.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 23, 2012, 12:29:40 PM
I already answered. When Corded ware, andronovo, yamna , tarim basin, scythian samples have already come back R1a or will most likely come back as R1a what else is needed.

You are stating the obvious. Most will agree that R1a is the perfect fit for the spread of IE in eastern Europe and further to the east. However, R1a is a poor candidate for the spread of IE to Western Europe. That is where R1b comes in. More than likely R1a and R1b were in close proximity for a long time and both spoke a similar proto-IE language before going off on their separate ways.

Spread is different from origins. R1b most likely never spoke proto IE. R1b spread the language to Western Europe but they are not the source of it.

Your point would be more valid if the origins of PIE were in Western Europe. But since hehy were probably around Yamna/the steepe we will see who is right when the Yamna study comes out.

You do realize that the highest branches of R1a and R1b are probably a few thousand years older than the Yamna Culture, right?

Yes.

If PIE originated in Yman and the yamna samples come out as R1a why would anybody assume R1b spoke PIE unless they are saying R1b speakers got it from R1a people.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 23, 2012, 12:35:44 PM
I already answered. When Corded ware, andronovo, yamna , tarim basin, scythian samples have already come back R1a or will most likely come back as R1a what else is needed.

You are stating the obvious. Most will agree that R1a is the perfect fit for the spread of IE in eastern Europe and further to the east. However, R1a is a poor candidate for the spread of IE to Western Europe. That is where R1b comes in. More than likely R1a and R1b were in close proximity for a long time and both spoke a similar proto-IE language before going off on their separate ways.

Spread is different from origins. R1b most likely never spoke proto IE. R1b spread the language to Western Europe but they are not the source of it.

Your point would be more valid if the origins of PIE were in Western Europe. But since hehy were probably around Yamna/the steepe we will see who is right when the Yamna study comes out.

Is your point that R1a is the sole source for the original PIE speakers? It's possible, but I don't necessarily agree. Is that your point? If so, what is the evidence that R1a is the sole source?  

You might want to consider that the PIE homeland territory is not totally agreed upon.  You might also want to consider that even a Pontic Steppes PIE homeland takes into coverage a very large area with multiple cultures over multiple timeframes. David Anthony makes the point that Yamna is not a singular culture.  It is an horizon of cultures.  Timing-wise, per Richard R, you might want to consider that it is quite likely that that R1a and R1b are both older than PIE and both of a central Eruasian origin. Of course, at one time their lineages are one.. the time of the R1 TMRCA, which Karafet estimates to be 18.5k ybp. Are you claiming R1b (M343) is as young or younger than PIE?

Interested, you state
Quote
Your point would be more valid if the origins of PIE were in Western Europe
Implicit in your statement is an assumption that R1b (M343) is of Western European origin. Are you claiming R1b is of Western European origin?  Please be specific.

If you recognize that answering these questions gets you deeper into logic traps, that's okay. Just admit you don't have much evidence. There is no shame in changing your mind.  I used to think R1b (M343) was the prevalent Y hg of Cro-Magnon men in Europe. I was wrong and no longer think so.

Central Eurasian origin? What zone is this referring to?  Who said R1b originated in Western Europe? R1b originated in West Asia. And R1a in Eastern Europe makes sense. R1b spread IE to western europe.

Its not a coincidence that Tocharians were R1a and were one of the earliest groups to diverge. Or that Balto-Slavic speakers are heavy in R1a and speak languages closer to PIE than Germanic or italo-celtic languages which deviate heavily from IE.

And yes R1a carriers are the source of PIE. The PIE homeland territory is not agreed upon by individuals who want to connect it to R1b or whatever else fits their agenda. Yamna fits. R1b arriving to Yamna with farmers from the tripoyle culture with links to west asia doesn't make R1b a PIE lineage.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 23, 2012, 12:46:37 PM

Central Eurasian origin? What zone is this referring to?  Who said R1b originated in Western Europe? R1b originated in West Asia. And R1a in Eastern Europe makes sense. R1b spread IE to western europe.

Its not a coincidence that Tocharians were R1a and were one of the earliest groups to diverge. Or that Balto-Slavic speakers are heavy in R1a and speak languages closer to PIE than Germanic or italo-celtic languages which deviate heavily from IE.

And yes R1a carriers are the source of PIE. The PIE homeland territory is not agreed upon by individuals who want to connect it to R1b or whatever else fits their agenda. Yamna fits. R1b arriving to Yamna with farmers from the tripoyle culture with links to west asia doesn't make R1b a PIE lineage.

What language do you think the first R1+ carrier spoke? You think he passed that language down exclusively to his one son (R1a) but not the other (R1b)?  Was R1b a mute? Did he use sign language?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: secherbernard on May 23, 2012, 02:53:54 PM
I already answered. When Corded ware, andronovo, yamna , tarim basin, scythian samples have already come back R1a or will most likely come back as R1a what else is needed.
It is wrong: there is not yet yamna sample tested thus far. So you don't know if y-dna of yamna people were R1a or any thing else.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 23, 2012, 05:05:56 PM

Central Eurasian origin? What zone is this referring to?  Who said R1b originated in Western Europe? R1b originated in West Asia. And R1a in Eastern Europe makes sense. R1b spread IE to western europe.

Its not a coincidence that Tocharians were R1a and were one of the earliest groups to diverge. Or that Balto-Slavic speakers are heavy in R1a and speak languages closer to PIE than Germanic or italo-celtic languages which deviate heavily from IE.

And yes R1a carriers are the source of PIE. The PIE homeland territory is not agreed upon by individuals who want to connect it to R1b or whatever else fits their agenda. Yamna fits. R1b arriving to Yamna with farmers from the tripoyle culture with links to west asia doesn't make R1b a PIE lineage.

What language do you think the first R1+ carrier spoke? You think he passed that language down exclusively to his one son (R1a) but not the other (R1b)?  Was R1b a mute? Did he use sign language?

Why does it matter? R1a and R1b predate IE languages. R1b originates in West Asia. IE languages developed with R1a carriers in Eastern Europe. Do all sons have the same accomplishments?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: eochaidh on May 23, 2012, 06:24:21 PM

Central Eurasian origin? What zone is this referring to?  Who said R1b originated in Western Europe? R1b originated in West Asia. And R1a in Eastern Europe makes sense. R1b spread IE to western europe.

Its not a coincidence that Tocharians were R1a and were one of the earliest groups to diverge. Or that Balto-Slavic speakers are heavy in R1a and speak languages closer to PIE than Germanic or italo-celtic languages which deviate heavily from IE.

And yes R1a carriers are the source of PIE. The PIE homeland territory is not agreed upon by individuals who want to connect it to R1b or whatever else fits their agenda. Yamna fits. R1b arriving to Yamna with farmers from the tripoyle culture with links to west asia doesn't make R1b a PIE lineage.

What language do you think the first R1+ carrier spoke? You think he passed that language down exclusively to his one son (R1a) but not the other (R1b)?  Was R1b a mute? Did he use sign language?

Why does it matter? R1a and R1b predate IE languages. R1b originates in West Asia. IE languages developed with R1a carriers in Eastern Europe. Do all sons have the same accomplishments?

None of the men knew whether they were R1a or R1b, and the Indo-European langauge didn't know who was taking it where.

You talk as if there was a competition taking place...  Indo-European is a language and it was spread by people who had no idea what Haplogroup they belonged to.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 23, 2012, 06:30:01 PM
Why does it matter? R1a and R1b predate IE languages. R1b originates in West Asia. IE languages developed with R1a carriers in Eastern Europe.

To be more accurate, PIE evolved from a hunter-gatherer language in contact with farming people on the border of Europe and Asia. The hunters acquired knowledge from farming neighbours who had brought that knowledge from West Asia.





 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 23, 2012, 06:56:31 PM
I think the idea that R1a was the sole source of initial IE and R1b the recievers is questionable.  I also am not sure what the fetish some people have to be related to a backwards culture of late hunters turning into wandering violent cattle men bashing each other on the heads with hammer axes after borrowing most of the stuff that dragged them out the dark ages from the farmers who had towns and sophisticated societies etc.  All sounds a bit wrong headed to me.

What the proto-IE were was not steppes hunters but a mix of hunters who had taken on a lot from more advanced societies around them.  It was only after some sort of input from the farming workd that PIE society developed.  If you want some sort of pure R1a society in the steppes (if it ever existed) then you need to go back to the days when they were hunters and the PIE culture had not formed.  PIE is not a steppes hunters thing.  It clearly is a hybrid of influences.  Without the farmers it could not have existed.

I also wonder why people fetishish these hunters anyway like they were some sort of uber-men.  They didnt look too uber-men like when the Bug-Dniester culture were swept aside by the allegedly flower power loving tree hugging Cucutene Trypole people as they expanded east.  Bottom line is these guys were nothing but simple hunters borrowing ideas from farmers with a society nothing like PIE society until the farmer people made crucial inputs.  If ideas travel with people then you can be sure the genes of farming groups were mixed in.  By the time PIE evolved there had been a very very long period of interaction.

I also think we have to wonder about the idea that even the PIE core was R1a-dominated.  The Anatolian branch is thought by some serious linguists to be an offshoot from what was to become the PIE area before PIE had fully formed and it seems that only R1b could have been involved in that given the lack of R1a in Anatolia (that is if you believe languages and genes spread together).  That could put R1b in the area of PIE even before PIE had fully formed.

Finally, there is no certainty that L23 and downstream was actually the farming language.  The only map I have seen of L23* variance actually places higher variance in an arc from around Armenia through the west side of the Black Sea, along the top of the latter and into Romania.  There is a possibility that the more southerly groups in the PIE world could have been R1b and headed into Anatolia and Romania from an intermediate point along the north coasts of the Black Sea or adjacent.   .  

Finally, and this is a real question rather than a rhetorical one, is the concept of R1a and R1b people belonging to really radically separated language families like some sort of pre-PIE on the one hand and Afro-Asiastic viable?  How deep do linguists calculate the common ancestor of those language branches?

Finally, we often talk about the hypothesis that R1b spread with some mega-advantage of lactose persistence developed by them perhaps being linked to dairying evolving in NW Anatolia before 6000BC and entering SE Europe before 5000BC. If this is all true then surely an steppes hunters would have been at a tremendous selective disadvantage in starting regular milk use far later?    


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 23, 2012, 07:56:55 PM
I guess people will never stop trying to connect IE and R1b no matter how much evidence has been presented against it.

Care to list them here, because I haven't seen any evidence/proof.

Haha seriously? Nobody has connected R1a and IE. The connection is clear. Why should I argue with a theory embraced by no one but Western Europeans. Whats the difference between accepting that theory and the garbage out of india theory? Both motivated by racism and nationalism. But neither supported by science. IE comes from the steepe and is connected with R1a not R1b.

Tone down your rhetoric please or demonstrate how the idea that there is a connection between R1b and Indo-European languages is "motivated by racism and nationalism".

By the way, when it comes to R1b and Indo-European languages "[t]he connection is clear". The overwhelming majority of the population of Europe speak an Indo-European language, and R1b is the most common European y haplogroup.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 23, 2012, 08:16:29 PM
BTW, Anthony says that by about 2500 BC, PIE was a dead language. All of the ancient R1a finds are well after that and pretty far east, with the exception of the father and son at the Corded Ware site at Eulau, Germany, dated to about 2600 BC, and the pair of probable R1a in the Lichtenstein Cave in Germany, dated to about 1300 BC.

Finding Scythians or possible Tocharians who were R1a does not prove that the original PIE people were exclusively R1a or even mostly R1a. It proves that there were some Scythians and maybe-Tocharians who were R1a.

As far as I know, no ancient y-dna has been recovered from any remains found in western kurgans.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 23, 2012, 08:46:34 PM
I guess people will never stop trying to connect IE and R1b no matter how much evidence has been presented against it.

Care to list them here, because I haven't seen any evidence/proof.

Haha seriously? Nobody has connected R1a and IE. The connection is clear. Why should I argue with a theory embraced by no one but Western Europeans. Whats the difference between accepting that theory and the garbage out of india theory? Both motivated by racism and nationalism. But neither supported by science. IE comes from the steepe and is connected with R1a not R1b.

Tone down your rhetoric please or demonstrate how the idea that there is a connection between R1b and Indo-European languages is "motivated by racism and nationalism".

By the way, when it comes to R1b and Indo-European languages "[t]he connection is clear". The overwhelming majority of the population of Europe speak an Indo-European language, and R1b is the most common European y haplogroup.

And? R1b peaks in West Europe while PIE is from East Europe. And anyways so what? There are a bunch of Ydna H carriers speaking Indo-European languages. Based on this logic one would think ydna J2 carriers are the original Indo-Iranians and not R1a-Z93+ carriers.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 23, 2012, 08:51:52 PM
I think the idea that R1a was the sole source of initial IE and R1b the recievers is questionable.  I also am not sure what the fetish some people have to be related to a backwards culture of late hunters turning into wandering violent cattle men bashing each other on the heads with hammer axes after borrowing most of the stuff that dragged them out the dark ages from the farmers who had towns and sophisticated societies etc.  All sounds a bit wrong headed to me.

What the proto-IE were was not steppes hunters but a mix of hunters who had taken on a lot from more advanced societies around them.  It was only after some sort of input from the farming workd that PIE society developed.  If you want some sort of pure R1a society in the steppes (if it ever existed) then you need to go back to the days when they were hunters and the PIE culture had not formed.  PIE is not a steppes hunters thing.  It clearly is a hybrid of influences.  Without the farmers it could not have existed.

I also wonder why people fetishish these hunters anyway like they were some sort of uber-men.  They didnt look too uber-men like when the Bug-Dniester culture were swept aside by the allegedly flower power loving tree hugging Cucutene Trypole people as they expanded east.  Bottom line is these guys were nothing but simple hunters borrowing ideas from farmers with a society nothing like PIE society until the farmer people made crucial inputs.  If ideas travel with people then you can be sure the genes of farming groups were mixed in.  By the time PIE evolved there had been a very very long period of interaction.

I also think we have to wonder about the idea that even the PIE core was R1a-dominated.  The Anatolian branch is thought by some serious linguists to be an offshoot from what was to become the PIE area before PIE had fully formed and it seems that only R1b could have been involved in that given the lack of R1a in Anatolia (that is if you believe languages and genes spread together).  That could put R1b in the area of PIE even before PIE had fully formed.

Finally, there is no certainty that L23 and downstream was actually the farming language.  The only map I have seen of L23* variance actually places higher variance in an arc from around Armenia through the west side of the Black Sea, along the top of the latter and into Romania.  There is a possibility that the more southerly groups in the PIE world could have been R1b and headed into Anatolia and Romania from an intermediate point along the north coasts of the Black Sea or adjacent.   .  

Finally, and this is a real question rather than a rhetorical one, is the concept of R1a and R1b people belonging to really radically separated language families like some sort of pre-PIE on the one hand and Afro-Asiastic viable?  How deep do linguists calculate the common ancestor of those language branches?

Finally, we often talk about the hypothesis that R1b spread with some mega-advantage of lactose persistence developed by them perhaps being linked to dairying evolving in NW Anatolia before 6000BC and entering SE Europe before 5000BC. If this is all true then surely an steppes hunters would have been at a tremendous selective disadvantage in starting regular milk use far later?    

How do you know the steepe didn't have pure R1a societies? Given the lack of R1b in Andronovo, Scythians, the Tarim Basin samples it seems the steepe was entirely R1a till a relatively late date. R1b-M269 has almost zero presence in Central Asia.

And trying to portray R1a speakers as some sort of backwards individuals stealing idea from their superior R1b neighbors isn't wrongheaded? The R1a carriers were advanced in their own ways. The R1b supremacy is getting old.

And regarding the bolded section: And now trying to make R1b the entire PIE group by putting its origins in Anatolia is ok but when people say R1a made up the entire PIE core it is apparently wrong.

The Yamna study should settle this debate once it comes out.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 23, 2012, 08:57:44 PM
I guess people will never stop trying to connect IE and R1b no matter how much evidence has been presented against it.

Care to list them here, because I haven't seen any evidence/proof.

Haha seriously? Nobody has connected R1a and IE. The connection is clear. Why should I argue with a theory embraced by no one but Western Europeans. Whats the difference between accepting that theory and the garbage out of india theory? Both motivated by racism and nationalism. But neither supported by science. IE comes from the steepe and is connected with R1a not R1b.

Tone down your rhetoric please or demonstrate how the idea that there is a connection between R1b and Indo-European languages is "motivated by racism and nationalism".

By the way, when it comes to R1b and Indo-European languages "[t]he connection is clear". The overwhelming majority of the population of Europe speak an Indo-European language, and R1b is the most common European y haplogroup.

And? R1b peaks in West Europe while PIE is from East Europe. And anyways so what? There are a bunch of Ydna H carriers speaking Indo-European languages. Based on this logic one would think ydna J2 carriers are the original Indo-Iranians and not R1a-Z93+ carriers.

No one knows for certain where the PIE Urheimat was.

Even if it was in Eastern Europe, it is pretty evident that R1b came from the east and moved west. It did not originate in Western Europe.

Care to back up your accusation that the idea that there is a connection between R1b and PIE is "motivated by racism and nationalism"?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 23, 2012, 09:02:09 PM
I guess people will never stop trying to connect IE and R1b no matter how much evidence has been presented against it.

Care to list them here, because I haven't seen any evidence/proof.

Haha seriously? Nobody has connected R1a and IE. The connection is clear. Why should I argue with a theory embraced by no one but Western Europeans. Whats the difference between accepting that theory and the garbage out of india theory? Both motivated by racism and nationalism. But neither supported by science. IE comes from the steepe and is connected with R1a not R1b.

Tone down your rhetoric please or demonstrate how the idea that there is a connection between R1b and Indo-European languages is "motivated by racism and nationalism".

By the way, when it comes to R1b and Indo-European languages "[t]he connection is clear". The overwhelming majority of the population of Europe speak an Indo-European language, and R1b is the most common European y haplogroup.

And? R1b peaks in West Europe while PIE is from East Europe. And anyways so what? There are a bunch of Ydna H carriers speaking Indo-European languages. Based on this logic one would think ydna J2 carriers are the original Indo-Iranians and not R1a-Z93+ carriers.

No one knows for certain where the PIE Urheimat was.

Even if it was in Eastern Europe, it is pretty evident that R1b came from the east and moved west. It did not originate in Western Europe.

Care to back up your accusation that the idea that there is a connection between R1b and PIE is "motivated by racism and nationalism"?

It came from Anatolia not from Eastern Europe.

Most things support R1a and PIE but people especially R1b carriers are still trying to connect R1b and PIE. I get attacked for saying the PIE core is entirely R1a but Alan travel hands shifts the homeland to anatolia so he can make R1b (this would make J2 and G PIE ydnas too btw ) the PIE group and nobody says anything.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 23, 2012, 09:05:04 PM
Also how do people know thr Anatolian branch is an offshoot of PIE? And how do you know it didn't get there from somewhere else?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 23, 2012, 09:06:50 PM
Why does it matter? R1a and R1b predate IE languages. R1b originates in West Asia. IE languages developed with R1a carriers in Eastern Europe.

To be more accurate, PIE evolved from a hunter-gatherer language in contact with farming people on the border of Europe and Asia. The hunters acquired knowledge from farming neighbours who had brought that knowledge from West Asia.





 

Yes. It is a hunter gatherer language. It didn't come from Anatolian farmers. I disagree with their being mass scale admixture and the PIE core consisting of R1b and R1a. If that was true there should have been R1b among Tocharians, Scythians, Andronovo people, central asians. but there isn't. The steepe remained close to 100% R1a imo.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: polako on May 23, 2012, 10:00:25 PM
No one knows for certain where the PIE Urheimat was.

Even if it was in Eastern Europe, it is pretty evident that R1b came from the east and moved west. It did not originate in Western Europe.

It doesn't matter where the PIE urheimat was for certain, because it sure as hell wasn't in the Mediterranean basin.

And European R1b is clearly a Mediterranean basin marker, showing a high correlation with autosomal influence from the south and southwest, and via ancient DNA also with seafaring cultures like the ancestors of the Guanches and Bell Beakers.

It's not proto-Indo-European, but most certainly pre-Indo-European in Western and West Central Europe.

So it's not a coincidence that R1b-M269 was present on pre-Indo-European Canary Islands (ie. the Guanches carried it). But R1a was only detected there after the Indo-Europeans had arrived.

And it's also not a coincidence that R1b was missing from all prehistoric remains linked to the Indo-Europeans, like the Corded Ware, Andronovo, and Tarim Basin. It only appears in Central European Urnfield, which is not surprising, because Central Europe was the contact zone between the non-Indo-European R1b Bell beakers and early Indo-European R1a Corded Ware folk.

-- MESSAGE SEGMENT DELETED -- Terry


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: NealtheRed on May 23, 2012, 10:32:06 PM

--QUOTE DELETED-- Terry


Stick to makin' goulash, Polako. You are living in a fantasy world when it comes to vicariously living through IE-speaking, R1b folk who have apparently done nothing but become the bane of your genealogical pursuits. Caveat lector, my friend.

In other words, get over it.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Humanist on May 23, 2012, 11:36:54 PM

Finally, there is no certainty that L23 and downstream was actually the farming language. The only map I have seen of L23* variance actually places higher variance in an arc from around Armenia through the west side of the Black Sea, along the top of the latter and into Romania.  There is a possibility that the more southerly groups in the PIE world could have been R1b and headed into Anatolia and Romania from an intermediate point along the north coasts of the Black Sea or adjacent.

Although not a terrible map, that would leave out some of the areas with the highest L23 diversity.  Namely, N Mesopotamia, to points west, along the Syrian-Turkish border.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 24, 2012, 01:28:23 AM
....
And European R1b is clearly a Mediterranean basin marker, showing a high correlation with autosomal influence from the south and southwest, and via ancient DNA also with seafaring cultures like the ancestors of the Guanches and Bell Beakers.
Are you aware that variance for some forms of R1b (i.e. U106) are higher in Poland and the Baltic states than in the south.  R1b-U106 is a large chunk and I don't think you can say it is "clearly" Mediterranean... not even close. You may not be aware, but there is also a lot of R1b-P312 in Scandinavia. I also wouldn't call the large R1b-L21 group "clearly" Mediterranean since they barely seemed to have reached it.

.... non-Indo-European R1b Bell beakers and early Indo-European R1a Corded Ware folks...

Is it proven the Bell Beaker folks were non-IE speaking, or that the Corded Ware were IE speaking?  It could be so, but if the Bell Beakers weren't IE speaking, it gets pretty hard to figure out how Italo-Celtic languages became so prevalent in the west.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 24, 2012, 01:46:22 AM
... Yes. It is a hunter gatherer language. It didn't come from Anatolian farmers. I disagree with their being mass scale admixture and the PIE core consisting of R1b and R1a.

Are my brother and I a population with admixture? - the result of interbreeding between two or more previously isolated populations within a species.  Even if I had a new SNP my brother didn't have and he had one I didn't, we are still not admixture. We have the same ancestry.

R1b and R1a have a common R1 ancestor.  At some point, their lineages were one and the same.

If that was true there should have been R1b among Tocharians, Scythians, Andronovo people, central asians. but there isn't. The steepe remained close to 100% R1a imo.

Are you making the case that the Yamna horizon was a monolithic culture? Apparently so if you rely on the assumption that all expansions of Yamna groups had the same mix, which is what you are doing when you require R1b to be in every IE population.  Likewise, I don't see much R1a in the Celtics or Italics, yet they are IE.  It doesn't matter anyway, the Yamna were not a singular, monolithic group.  They were various groups of mobile people shifting across the very large Central Eurasian plain.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: gtc on May 24, 2012, 01:49:02 AM

--QUOTE DELETED--  Terry


Such a well spoken young boy. His mother must be proud.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 24, 2012, 04:03:34 AM

I also think we have to wonder about the idea that even the PIE core was R1a-dominated ...  given the lack of R1a in Anatolia

While I agree with the general thrust of your views here, I must point out that R1a is found in Anatolia, albeit at a level (6.9%) below that of R1b-M269 (14.7%). R1a1a-M17 is higher in Eastern Turkey and its distribution significantly correlates with longitude across the nine regions (Cinnioglu 2004). The authors of course did not test for the new SNPs in R1a1a, and I'm afraid I am not sufficiently clued-up on STRs to take a guess at which subclades their sample fall into. However the R1a1a and Subclades Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a/default.aspx)  has three Turkish members of R1a* and one of Z93+. The latter could have arrived with Mitanni or Turks.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 24, 2012, 04:17:58 AM
Are you making the case that the Yamna horizon was a monolithic culture? 

Anthony makes the point that it wasn't. That's why he uses the word "horizon". The package seems to have swept across the Pontic-Caspian steppe, influencing a whole bunch of small communities, each with its own flavour.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Humanist on May 24, 2012, 04:56:17 AM

I also think we have to wonder about the idea that even the PIE core was R1a-dominated ...  given the lack of R1a in Anatolia

While I agree with the general thrust of your views here, I must point out that R1a is found in Anatolia, albeit at a level (6.9%) below that of R1b-M269 (14.7%). R1a1a-M17 is higher in Eastern Turkey and its distribution significantly correlates with longitude across the nine regions (Cinnioglu 2004).

Just a friendly note, from someone with ties to E Turkey (specifically, extreme SE Turkey). I do not ordinarily rely on R1a1 frequencies reported for Turkey.   In particular, E Turkey, given the population turnovers of the past century or two (e.g. Armenian, Pontic Greek, and Assyrian genocides).  And, extending as far back as 1000 years or so, with the known and/or presumed migrations of certain groups into the area.  

My last update to the R1a1 frequency map for Near East "minority" groups: http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Map_Middle_East_R1a-2.jpg

The accompanying data:

Code:
Pop N R1a Language Source
Druze 366 1% Semitic Arabic Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al.
PalChri 44 2% Semitic Arabic Fernandes at al.*
Alawi 104 2% Semitic Arabic Donbak et al.*
Assyr 106 2% Semitic Aramaic Yepiskoposian et al.
IraqJ 79 0% Semitic Hebrew Behar et al.
IranJ 49 4% Semitic Hebrew Behar et al.
Armeni 1147 4% Indo-European Armenian Hererra et al., Weale et al.
NiqJews 99 4% Semitic Hebrew/Aramaic Nebel et al.
Yezidi 196 2% Indo-Iranian(IE) Kurmanji Yepiskoposian et al.
Maronit 196 0% Semitic Arabic/Aramaic Haber et al.
YemenJ 74 3% Semitic Hebrew/Arabic Behar et al.
Bakht 46 15% Indo-Iranian (IE) Luri Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh 18 6% Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh Roewer et al.
Gilak 43 14% Indo-Iranian (IE) Gilaki Roewer et al.
Mazan 46 7% Indo-Iranian (IE) Mazandarani Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh 43 0% Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh Roewer et al.
Tats 20 0% Indo-Iranian (IE) Tati Bertoncini et al.

Edit: But I should add that you are correct, in that there is some presence of R1a in Anatolia. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 24, 2012, 06:46:44 AM
@ Humanist  - I couldn't agree more that we need to be very cautious in conclusions drawn from present DNA in Anatolia. There has been a huge turnover in population since 4000 BC. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 24, 2012, 09:07:48 AM
So it's not a coincidence that R1b-M269 was present on pre-Indo-European Canary Islands (ie. the Guanches carried it). But R1a was only detected there after the Indo-Europeans had arrived...

Could you explain the specifics of your logic on this?  There many, many different people that came to the Canary Islands from N. Africans, to Spanish, to Phoenician, etc.  How do you know which groups brought what?  I know there has been DNA testing there but I can't find the paper.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 24, 2012, 09:12:02 AM
@ Humanist  - I couldn't agree more that we need to be very cautious in conclusions drawn from present DNA in Anatolia. There has been a huge turnover in population since 4000 BC. 
To be honest, there have been pretty good population turnovers in much of Europe since 4000 BC, haven't there?  I know Turkey has seen a great deal of conflict in the last couple of hundred years but if we evaluate by ethnic group and region (rather than as monolithic) is the degree of caution required really any greater?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 24, 2012, 09:17:33 AM

I also think we have to wonder about the idea that even the PIE core was R1a-dominated ...  given the lack of R1a in Anatolia

While I agree with the general thrust of your views here, I must point out that R1a is found in Anatolia, albeit at a level (6.9%) below that of R1b-M269 (14.7%). R1a1a-M17 is higher in Eastern Turkey and its distribution significantly correlates with longitude across the nine regions (Cinnioglu 2004).

Just a friendly note, from someone with ties to E Turkey (specifically, extreme SE Turkey). I do not ordinarily rely on R1a1 frequencies reported for Turkey.   In particular, E Turkey, given the population turnovers of the past century or two (e.g. Armenian, Pontic Greek, and Assyrian genocides).  And, extending as far back as 1000 years or so, with the known and/or presumed migrations of certain groups into the area.  

My last update to the R1a1 frequency map for Near East "minority" groups: http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Map_Middle_East_R1a-2.jpg

The accompanying data:

Code:
Pop N R1a Language Source
Druze 366 1% Semitic Arabic Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al.
PalChri 44 2% Semitic Arabic Fernandes at al.*
Alawi 104 2% Semitic Arabic Donbak et al.*
Assyr 106 2% Semitic Aramaic Yepiskoposian et al.
IraqJ 79 0% Semitic Hebrew Behar et al.
IranJ 49 4% Semitic Hebrew Behar et al.
Armeni 1147 4% Indo-European Armenian Hererra et al., Weale et al.
NiqJews 99 4% Semitic Hebrew/Aramaic Nebel et al.
Yezidi 196 2% Indo-Iranian(IE) Kurmanji Yepiskoposian et al.
Maronit 196 0% Semitic Arabic/Aramaic Haber et al.
YemenJ 74 3% Semitic Hebrew/Arabic Behar et al.
Bakht 46 15% Indo-Iranian (IE) Luri Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh 18 6% Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh Roewer et al.
Gilak 43 14% Indo-Iranian (IE) Gilaki Roewer et al.
Mazan 46 7% Indo-Iranian (IE) Mazandarani Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh 43 0% Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh Roewer et al.
Tats 20 0% Indo-Iranian (IE) Tati Bertoncini et al.

Edit: But I should add that you are correct, in that there is some presence of R1a in Anatolia.  

I see the R1a proportions are highest in some of the Indo-Iranian populations (i.e. Gilaki, Bakhtiari, Mazandarani.) In what timeframes do we expect that they arrived in the Near East?

What groups above do you expect we would find remnants of the Hittites in?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: JeanL on May 24, 2012, 09:29:33 AM
I know there has been DNA testing there but I can't find the paper.

There you go Mike:

Demographic history of Canary Islands male gene-pool: replacement of native lineages by European (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/9/181)


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 24, 2012, 09:38:38 AM
To be honest, there have been pretty good population turnovers in much of Europe since 4000 BC, haven't there?  I know Turkey has seen a great deal of conflict in the last couple of hundred years but if we evaluate by ethnic group and region (rather than as monolithic) is the degree of caution required really any greater?

Hard to say exactly!  I think I'd be at least as cautious with Anatolia as with Eastern Europe, which has been so churned up over the last 6000 years that I almost threw up my hands and gave up. :)

It is not just the conflict of recent centuries we have to worry about in Anatolia. It is not just the influx of the Turks either. There is one long parade of IE-speaking people bursting upon the scene. We have the Anatolian-branch IE people maybe c. 3000 BC, who seem to have ousted some non-IE groups eventually, some of whom fled west along the Med to turn up in history as the Etruscans and Minoans. Then we have the Phrygian-Armenian migration from Thrace (1200 BC?) and  the Greek colonies. Anatolia was conquered by the Persian Achaemenid Empire during the 6th and 5th centuries BC . Then we have the Celts (Gauls) founding Galatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia).

For a quick summary see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey#Antiquity

[Added] Forgot to mention the Cimmerians fleeing from the Scythians into Anatolia .

 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: MHammers on May 24, 2012, 10:50:32 AM
The Canary Islands R1b is only tested to M269 and most likely due to Spanish/Portuguese colonization. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 24, 2012, 11:06:59 AM
The Canary Islands R1b is only tested to M269 and most likely due to Spanish/Portuguese colonization.  

The samples were taken from cemeteries (details below) prior to the Hispanic capture and colonisation of the islands 1402 AD+. There had been contact previously between the islanders and other people e.g. Greeks, Romans.  However it is perfectly possible that the R1b arrived with the first Berber people to colonise the islands c. 1000 BC, ancestors of the Guanches. Bear in mind that Bell Beaker goods and remains have been found in Morocco that date to before this.  

c. 1000 AD : Tenerife (2210 ± 60 to 1720 ± 60 BP), Gomera (1743 ± 40 to 1493 ± 40 BP), Hierro (1740 ± 50 to 970 ± 50 BP) and Gran Canaria (1410 ± 60 to 750 ± 60 BP).



 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: MHammers on May 24, 2012, 11:19:42 AM
The Canary Islands R1b is only tested to M269 and most likely due to Spanish/Portuguese colonization.  

The samples were taken from cemeteries (details below) prior to the Hispanic capture and colonisation of the islands 1402 AD+. There had been contact previously between the islanders and other people e.g. Greeks, Romans.  However it is perfectly possible that the R1b arrived with the first Berber people to colonise the islands c. 1000 BC, ancestors of the Guanches. Bear in mind that Bell Beaker goods and remains have been found in Morocco that date to before this.  

c. 1000 AD : Tenerife (2210 ± 60 to 1720 ± 60 BP), Gomera (1743 ± 40 to 1493 ± 40 BP), Hierro (1740 ± 50 to 970 ± 50 BP) and Gran Canaria (1410 ± 60 to 750 ± 60 BP).

Thanks for the clarification, ie., no demonstration of UP ancestry.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Humanist on May 24, 2012, 11:49:41 AM

I also think we have to wonder about the idea that even the PIE core was R1a-dominated ...  given the lack of R1a in Anatolia

While I agree with the general thrust of your views here, I must point out that R1a is found in Anatolia, albeit at a level (6.9%) below that of R1b-M269 (14.7%). R1a1a-M17 is higher in Eastern Turkey and its distribution significantly correlates with longitude across the nine regions (Cinnioglu 2004).

Just a friendly note, from someone with ties to E Turkey (specifically, extreme SE Turkey). I do not ordinarily rely on R1a1 frequencies reported for Turkey.   In particular, E Turkey, given the population turnovers of the past century or two (e.g. Armenian, Pontic Greek, and Assyrian genocides).  And, extending as far back as 1000 years or so, with the known and/or presumed migrations of certain groups into the area.  

My last update to the R1a1 frequency map for Near East "minority" groups: http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Map_Middle_East_R1a-2.jpg

The accompanying data:

Code:
Pop N R1a Language Source
Druze 366 1% Semitic Arabic Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al.
PalChri 44 2% Semitic Arabic Fernandes at al.*
Alawi 104 2% Semitic Arabic Donbak et al.*
Assyr 106 2% Semitic Aramaic Yepiskoposian et al.
IraqJ 79 0% Semitic Hebrew Behar et al.
IranJ 49 4% Semitic Hebrew Behar et al.
Armeni 1147 4% Indo-European Armenian Hererra et al., Weale et al.
NiqJews 99 4% Semitic Hebrew/Aramaic Nebel et al.
Yezidi 196 2% Indo-Iranian(IE) Kurmanji Yepiskoposian et al.
Maronit 196 0% Semitic Arabic/Aramaic Haber et al.
YemenJ 74 3% Semitic Hebrew/Arabic Behar et al.
Bakht 46 15% Indo-Iranian (IE) Luri Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh 18 6% Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh Roewer et al.
Gilak 43 14% Indo-Iranian (IE) Gilaki Roewer et al.
Mazan 46 7% Indo-Iranian (IE) Mazandarani Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh 43 0% Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh Roewer et al.
Tats 20 0% Indo-Iranian (IE) Tati Bertoncini et al.

Edit: But I should add that you are correct, in that there is some presence of R1a in Anatolia.  

I see the R1a proportions are highest in some of the Indo-Iranian populations (i.e. Gilaki, Bakhtiari, Mazandarani.) In what timeframes do we expect that they arrived in the Near East?

What groups above do you expect we would find remnants of the Hittites in?

I believe a good part of the R1a presence among Iranians may have arrived with the Indo-Iranians.  So, we are speaking here between two and three millennia ago.  Although not perfectly related, there is reason to believe R1a frequencies in many Indo-Iranian groups may be connected with the Dodecad K12b "North European" component, and its related components in Eurogenes.*

As for the Hittites, I would say there is no better extant candidate population than the Alawites.  Their homeland was former Hittite territory.  They are even referred to as Hittites in Turkish ("Eti"), by the Anatolian Turks.  

I am not saying that the Alawites are the undiluted specimens of the ancient Hittites.  But, from among the modern populations, in my opinion, no population makes a better case for being descended from the Hittites.

*Compare my Dodecad K12b component values, for instance, with those of Iranians:

Code:
Hum Irn
21.1 28.8 Gedrosia
0 2.1 Siberian
0 0 Northwest_African
0 0.6 Southeast_Asian
9.1 5.6 Atlantic_Med
0 6 North_European  <-----
0.2 3.6 South_Asian
0 0.1 East_African
18.4 12.4 Southwest_Asian
0.5 0.5 East_Asian
50.6 40.3 Caucasus
0 0 Sub_Saharan


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 24, 2012, 11:50:57 AM
Thanks for the clarification, ie., no demonstration of UP ancestry.

Heavens no! :)


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 24, 2012, 12:03:38 PM

So it's not a coincidence that R1b-M269 was present on pre-Indo-European Canary Islands (ie. the Guanches carried it). But R1a was only detected there after the Indo-Europeans had arrived...

Could you explain the specifics of your logic on this?  There many, many different people that came to the Canary Islands from N. Africans, to Spanish, to Phoenician, etc.  How do you know which groups brought what?  I know there has been DNA testing there but I can't find the paper.

There you go Mike:
Demographic history of Canary Islands male gene-pool: replacement of native lineages by European (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/9/181)

Thanks, Jean L.

This must be the pertinent part of "Demographic history of Canary Islands male gene-pool: replacement of native lineages by European" by Fregel et al - 2009.
Quote from: Fregel
Compared to the original natives, the 17th–18th century historical sample mainly differs by harboring lower frequencies of NW African haplogroups (p < 0.05), such as E-M81 (11.9% vs 26.7%), E-M78 (11.9% vs 23.3%) and J-M267 (11.9% vs 16.7%), and higher frequencies for European haplogroups (p < 0.001) like R-M269 (42.9% vs 10.0%) or R-M173, (9.5% vs 0.0%). A notable exception was I-M170 because it was not detected in the historical sample, despite being moderately frequent in the aborigines (6.7%).
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/9/181

Polako, is this how you are getting "R1b-M269 was present on pre-Indo-European Canary Islands (ie. the Guanches carried it). But R1a was only detected there after the Indo-Europeans had arrived."  Are you assuming that 10% of R-M269 in that population must be native versus an incursion?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 24, 2012, 12:07:21 PM
... Yes. It is a hunter gatherer language. It didn't come from Anatolian farmers. I disagree with their being mass scale admixture and the PIE core consisting of R1b and R1a.

Are my brother and I a population with admixture? - the result of interbreeding between two or more previously isolated populations within a species.  Even if I had a new SNP my brother didn't have and he had one I didn't, we are still not admixture. We have the same ancestry.

R1b and R1a have a common R1 ancestor.  At some point, their lineages were one and the same.

If that was true there should have been R1b among Tocharians, Scythians, Andronovo people, central asians. but there isn't. The steepe remained close to 100% R1a imo.

Are you making the case that the Yamna horizon was a monolithic culture? Apparently so if you rely on the assumption that all expansions of Yamna groups had the same mix, which is what you are doing when you require R1b to be in every IE population.  Likewise, I don't see much R1a in the Celtics or Italics, yet they are IE.  It doesn't matter anyway, the Yamna were not a singular, monolithic group.  They were various groups of mobile people shifting across the very large Central Eurasian plain.


Wasn't the Andronovo horizon formed by Yamna people? Not a single R1b or any other west eurasian ydna besides R1a. If there was so much admixture why haven't scythians showed anything indicating that?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: MHammers on May 24, 2012, 12:59:15 PM
... Yes. It is a hunter gatherer language. It didn't come from Anatolian farmers. I disagree with their being mass scale admixture and the PIE core consisting of R1b and R1a.

Are my brother and I a population with admixture? - the result of interbreeding between two or more previously isolated populations within a species.  Even if I had a new SNP my brother didn't have and he had one I didn't, we are still not admixture. We have the same ancestry.

R1b and R1a have a common R1 ancestor.  At some point, their lineages were one and the same.

If that was true there should have been R1b among Tocharians, Scythians, Andronovo people, central asians. but there isn't. The steepe remained close to 100% R1a imo.

Are you making the case that the Yamna horizon was a monolithic culture? Apparently so if you rely on the assumption that all expansions of Yamna groups had the same mix, which is what you are doing when you require R1b to be in every IE population.  Likewise, I don't see much R1a in the Celtics or Italics, yet they are IE.  It doesn't matter anyway, the Yamna were not a singular, monolithic group.  They were various groups of mobile people shifting across the very large Central Eurasian plain.


Wasn't the Andronovo horizon formed by Yamna people? Not a single R1b or any other west eurasian ydna besides R1a. If there was so much admixture why haven't scythians showed anything indicating that?

Yes, near the eastern range of Yamnaya.  There were westward migrations into the Danube corridor and all the way to Hungary, but this was when Cucuteni-Tripolye was still around and before Andronovo in the east.  If there is any R1b in Yamnaya it would most likely be in this western migration.  It was a large horizon that extended into places where it is completely logical to expect a presence of R1b.  

This doesn't mean R1b, nor R1a for that matter, were the original steppe hunter-gatherers.  PIE seems to be a language developed from among the intrusive Sredny Stog culture from the Volga region, the foragers already there, and likely neolithic influences from the south and west.  This could've involved many haplogroups.  This is 2000 or so years before R1a in Eulau.



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 24, 2012, 01:16:39 PM
Wasn't the Andronovo horizon formed by Yamna people? Not a single R1b or any other west eurasian ydna besides R1a. If there was so much admixture why haven't scythians showed anything indicating that?

The Bell Beaker Culture was also derived from Yamna. Why is there no R1a1a in Bell Beaker? The answer seems to be that people at the eastern end of the Pontic Caspian steppe were predominantly R1a1a, while people around the Sea of Azov were predominantly R1b.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 24, 2012, 02:38:15 PM
I think the idea that R1a was the sole source of initial IE and R1b the recievers is questionable.  I also am not sure what the fetish some people have to be related to a backwards culture of late hunters turning into wandering violent cattle men bashing each other on the heads with hammer axes after borrowing most of the stuff that dragged them out the dark ages from the farmers who had towns and sophisticated societies etc.  All sounds a bit wrong headed to me.

What the proto-IE were was not steppes hunters but a mix of hunters who had taken on a lot from more advanced societies around them.  It was only after some sort of input from the farming workd that PIE society developed.  If you want some sort of pure R1a society in the steppes (if it ever existed) then you need to go back to the days when they were hunters and the PIE culture had not formed.  PIE is not a steppes hunters thing.  It clearly is a hybrid of influences.  Without the farmers it could not have existed.

I also wonder why people fetishish these hunters anyway like they were some sort of uber-men.  They didnt look too uber-men like when the Bug-Dniester culture were swept aside by the allegedly flower power loving tree hugging Cucutene Trypole people as they expanded east.  Bottom line is these guys were nothing but simple hunters borrowing ideas from farmers with a society nothing like PIE society until the farmer people made crucial inputs.  If ideas travel with people then you can be sure the genes of farming groups were mixed in.  By the time PIE evolved there had been a very very long period of interaction.

I also think we have to wonder about the idea that even the PIE core was R1a-dominated.  The Anatolian branch is thought by some serious linguists to be an offshoot from what was to become the PIE area before PIE had fully formed and it seems that only R1b could have been involved in that given the lack of R1a in Anatolia (that is if you believe languages and genes spread together).  That could put R1b in the area of PIE even before PIE had fully formed.

Finally, there is no certainty that L23 and downstream was actually the farming language.  The only map I have seen of L23* variance actually places higher variance in an arc from around Armenia through the west side of the Black Sea, along the top of the latter and into Romania.  There is a possibility that the more southerly groups in the PIE world could have been R1b and headed into Anatolia and Romania from an intermediate point along the north coasts of the Black Sea or adjacent.   .  

Finally, and this is a real question rather than a rhetorical one, is the concept of R1a and R1b people belonging to really radically separated language families like some sort of pre-PIE on the one hand and Afro-Asiastic viable?  How deep do linguists calculate the common ancestor of those language branches?

Finally, we often talk about the hypothesis that R1b spread with some mega-advantage of lactose persistence developed by them perhaps being linked to dairying evolving in NW Anatolia before 6000BC and entering SE Europe before 5000BC. If this is all true then surely an steppes hunters would have been at a tremendous selective disadvantage in starting regular milk use far later?    

How do you know the steepe didn't have pure R1a societies? Given the lack of R1b in Andronovo, Scythians, the Tarim Basin samples it seems the steepe was entirely R1a till a relatively late date. R1b-M269 has almost zero presence in Central Asia.

And trying to portray R1a speakers as some sort of backwards individuals stealing idea from their superior R1b neighbors isn't wrongheaded? The R1a carriers were advanced in their own ways. The R1b supremacy is getting old.

And regarding the bolded section: And now trying to make R1b the entire PIE group by putting its origins in Anatolia is ok but when people say R1a made up the entire PIE core it is apparently wrong.

The Yamna study should settle this debate once it comes out.

I am not saying that at all.  I am following some version of the Kurgan idea for now as I think that the evidence is currently favouring that.  I am not some sort of obstinate person who will not move with evidence because it doesnt agree with what I thought when the evidence is different. I press hard when there is doubt and am not easily satisfied until things are clear cut.  I do like taking reverse positions to test models. and was trained to do that.

 I am not trying to state that IE originated in Anatolia in my post.  What I am saying is there was a non-R1a group in the PIE area before PIE had fully formed and they may have exited that area and headed into Anatolia after a period in an intermediate location.

The point is  the Anatolian branch was clearly in the PIE area from a very early stage and separated off and they are very unlikely to be R1a and much more likely to have been L23*.  So Anatolian shows R1b was in the soon-to-be PIE mix at an early stage and undoubtedly contributed to creating the reconstructed PIE society.  IIf R1b was more farming associated and was the in the mix of Anatolian or some proto-proto-IE society it kind of demonstrates that R1b was not some late addition to some already developed PIE language and society but was in the mix while it was still developing.  This would hardly be surprising given that farming influences were seeping into the steppes for well over a 1000 years before the currently favoured earliest date of PIE.  That takes nothing away from the lR1a element which was clearly also very important.  As to the location of Anatolian, the majority view is that they were not in Anatolia and were some sort of fission from the PIE area a little before PIE had fully developed.  I think that on balance R1b and R1a were in the area where PIE was developing before it had taken its reconstructed PIE form both in linguistic and terms of the final reconstructed PIE society.  

 Without them (assuming that R1b people were indeed farmers) the steppes peoples would have remained hunter gatherers. The farming aspect was crucial.  Without them there would be no PIE society as reconstructed.  


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 24, 2012, 02:49:57 PM
Wasn't the Andronovo horizon formed by Yamna people? Not a single R1b or any other west eurasian ydna besides R1a. If there was so much admixture why haven't scythians showed anything indicating that?

The Bell Beaker Culture was also derived from Yamna. Why is there no R1a1a in Bell Beaker? The answer seems to be that people at the eastern end of the Pontic Caspian steppe were predominantly R1a1a, while people around the Sea of Azov were predominantly R1b.

I am willing to be persuaded on that idea but it still feels unclear.  is the main source for this Harrison and Heyd or are there other papers that flesh this out.  I am totally open minded on this and maybe I should re-read H&H but it didnt feel like a closed case. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 24, 2012, 02:58:55 PM
Going back to the idea of the R1a and R1b languages at the potential contact period between farmers and steppe foragers, I am not a linguist but I doubt that there original languages were respectively say 5500BC were as different as proto-proto-PIE (for want of a better word) and afro-asiatic, semitic etc.  I would imagine the languages were rather closer albeit distant cousins.  Put it this way 6000 years after PIE its easy to spot that all IE languages are related.  This could have also been true when the two R1 peoples reconnected after maybe a similar period os separation around 5500BC (ish).  I think it might have been rather like an Iranian meeting a Romance speaker today and certainly not two groups from utterly different language families.  There may then be a third language that has been lost (or several/many).  It seem the sort of PIE vs Afro-Asiatic divide is more the sort of divide you might expect between R and J peoples or something like that. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 24, 2012, 03:10:50 PM
I think the idea that R1a was the sole source of initial IE and R1b the recievers is questionable.  I also am not sure what the fetish some people have to be related to a backwards culture of late hunters turning into wandering violent cattle men bashing each other on the heads with hammer axes after borrowing most of the stuff that dragged them out the dark ages from the farmers who had towns and sophisticated societies etc.  All sounds a bit wrong headed to me.

What the proto-IE were was not steppes hunters but a mix of hunters who had taken on a lot from more advanced societies around them.  It was only after some sort of input from the farming workd that PIE society developed.  If you want some sort of pure R1a society in the steppes (if it ever existed) then you need to go back to the days when they were hunters and the PIE culture had not formed.  PIE is not a steppes hunters thing.  It clearly is a hybrid of influences.  Without the farmers it could not have existed.

I also wonder why people fetishish these hunters anyway like they were some sort of uber-men.  They didnt look too uber-men like when the Bug-Dniester culture were swept aside by the allegedly flower power loving tree hugging Cucutene Trypole people as they expanded east.  Bottom line is these guys were nothing but simple hunters borrowing ideas from farmers with a society nothing like PIE society until the farmer people made crucial inputs.  If ideas travel with people then you can be sure the genes of farming groups were mixed in.  By the time PIE evolved there had been a very very long period of interaction.

I also think we have to wonder about the idea that even the PIE core was R1a-dominated.  The Anatolian branch is thought by some serious linguists to be an offshoot from what was to become the PIE area before PIE had fully formed and it seems that only R1b could have been involved in that given the lack of R1a in Anatolia (that is if you believe languages and genes spread together).  That could put R1b in the area of PIE even before PIE had fully formed.

Finally, there is no certainty that L23 and downstream was actually the farming language.  The only map I have seen of L23* variance actually places higher variance in an arc from around Armenia through the west side of the Black Sea, along the top of the latter and into Romania.  There is a possibility that the more southerly groups in the PIE world could have been R1b and headed into Anatolia and Romania from an intermediate point along the north coasts of the Black Sea or adjacent.   .  

Finally, and this is a real question rather than a rhetorical one, is the concept of R1a and R1b people belonging to really radically separated language families like some sort of pre-PIE on the one hand and Afro-Asiastic viable?  How deep do linguists calculate the common ancestor of those language branches?

Finally, we often talk about the hypothesis that R1b spread with some mega-advantage of lactose persistence developed by them perhaps being linked to dairying evolving in NW Anatolia before 6000BC and entering SE Europe before 5000BC. If this is all true then surely an steppes hunters would have been at a tremendous selective disadvantage in starting regular milk use far later?    

How do you know the steepe didn't have pure R1a societies? Given the lack of R1b in Andronovo, Scythians, the Tarim Basin samples it seems the steepe was entirely R1a till a relatively late date. R1b-M269 has almost zero presence in Central Asia.

And trying to portray R1a speakers as some sort of backwards individuals stealing idea from their superior R1b neighbors isn't wrongheaded? The R1a carriers were advanced in their own ways. The R1b supremacy is getting old.

And regarding the bolded section: And now trying to make R1b the entire PIE group by putting its origins in Anatolia is ok but when people say R1a made up the entire PIE core it is apparently wrong.

The Yamna study should settle this debate once it comes out.

I am not saying that at all.  I am following some version of the Kurgan idea for now as I think that the evidence is currently favouring that.  I am not some sort of obstinate person who will not move with evidence because it doesnt agree with what I thought when the evidence is different. I press hard when there is doubt and am not easily satisfied until things are clear cut.  I do like taking reverse positions to test models. and was trained to do that.

 I am not trying to state that IE originated in Anatolia in my post.  What I am saying is there was a non-R1a group in the PIE area before PIE had fully formed and they may have exited that area and headed into Anatolia after a period in an intermediate location.

The point is  the Anatolian branch was clearly in the PIE area from a very early stage and separated off and they are very unlikely to be R1a and much more likely to have been L23*.  So Anatolian shows R1b was in the soon-to-be PIE mix at an early stage and undoubtedly contributed to creating the reconstructed PIE society.  IIf R1b was more farming associated and was the in the mix of Anatolian or some proto-proto-IE society it kind of demonstrates that R1b was not some late addition to some already developed PIE language and society but was in the mix while it was still developing.  This would hardly be surprising given that farming influences were seeping into the steppes for well over a 1000 years before the currently favoured earliest date of PIE.  That takes nothing away from the lR1a element which was clearly also very important.  As to the location of Anatolian, the majority view is that they were not in Anatolia and were some sort of fission from the PIE area a little before PIE had fully developed.  I think that on balance R1b and R1a were in the area where PIE was developing before it had taken its reconstructed PIE form both in linguistic and terms of the final reconstructed PIE society.  

 Without them (assuming that R1b people were indeed farmers) the steppes peoples would have remained hunter gatherers. The farming aspect was crucial.  Without them there would be no PIE society as reconstructed.  

This is nonsense. R1b is 15% of Anatolian lineages and R1a is 7%. By your faulty logic J2a is really the PIE lineage. You are indeed trying to take something away from R1a by placing PIE in an area with lesser amounts of R1a so you say R1a received PIE from superior R1b carriers who civilized R1a carriers.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 24, 2012, 03:12:39 PM
One other thought is that premise of much of these discussions is that languages spread with genes.  If R1b was not an early part of the PIE world then the premise falls at the first hurdle.  R1b is pretty well the most likely smoking gun for IE in all of western Europe after all.  


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 24, 2012, 03:14:59 PM
Going back to the idea of the R1a and R1b languages at the potential contact period between farmers and steppe foragers, I am not a linguist but I doubt that there original languages were respectively say 5500BC were as different as proto-proto-PIE (for want of a better word) and afro-asiatic, semitic etc.  I would imagine the languages were rather closer albeit distant cousins.  Put it this way 6000 years after PIE its easy to spot that all IE languages are related.  This could have also been true when the two R1 peoples reconnected after maybe a similar period os separation around 5500BC (ish).  I think it might have been rather like an Iranian meeting a Romance speaker today and certainly not two groups from utterly different language families.  There may then be a third language that has been lost (or several/many). It seem the sort of PIE vs Afro-Asiatic divide is more the sort of divide you might expect between R and J peoples or something like that.  
There is no such divide. J2a peaks among non afroasiatic speakers and has nothing to do with Afroasiatic especially since it is more characteristic of Anatolians, Armenians, Caucasians, Iranians and NW South Asians where there is no evidence of Afro Asiatic languages being spoken there. J1 is more diverse in Iran, Anatolia and the Caucasus. There is no reason to connect J as a whole to Afro Asiatic. At best certain clades of J1 are related to the spread of Semitic in certain area. Both J1 and J2 are likely to have originated in an area encompassing the South Caucasus, Anatolia and Western Iran. This is also where R1b comes from.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 24, 2012, 03:15:52 PM
One other thought is that premise of much of these discussions is that languages spread with genes.  If R1b was not an early part of the PIE world then the premise falls at the first hurdle.  R1b is pretty well the most likely smoking gun for IE in all of western Europe after all.  

Doesn't mean R1b is the source pf PIE in Eastern Europe.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 24, 2012, 03:42:35 PM
I think the idea that R1a was the sole source of initial IE and R1b the recievers is questionable.  I also am not sure what the fetish some people have to be related to a backwards culture of late hunters turning into wandering violent cattle men bashing each other on the heads with hammer axes after borrowing most of the stuff that dragged them out the dark ages from the farmers who had towns and sophisticated societies etc.  All sounds a bit wrong headed to me.

What the proto-IE were was not steppes hunters but a mix of hunters who had taken on a lot from more advanced societies around them.  It was only after some sort of input from the farming workd that PIE society developed.  If you want some sort of pure R1a society in the steppes (if it ever existed) then you need to go back to the days when they were hunters and the PIE culture had not formed.  PIE is not a steppes hunters thing.  It clearly is a hybrid of influences.  Without the farmers it could not have existed.

I also wonder why people fetishish these hunters anyway like they were some sort of uber-men.  They didnt look too uber-men like when the Bug-Dniester culture were swept aside by the allegedly flower power loving tree hugging Cucutene Trypole people as they expanded east.  Bottom line is these guys were nothing but simple hunters borrowing ideas from farmers with a society nothing like PIE society until the farmer people made crucial inputs.  If ideas travel with people then you can be sure the genes of farming groups were mixed in.  By the time PIE evolved there had been a very very long period of interaction.

I also think we have to wonder about the idea that even the PIE core was R1a-dominated.  The Anatolian branch is thought by some serious linguists to be an offshoot from what was to become the PIE area before PIE had fully formed and it seems that only R1b could have been involved in that given the lack of R1a in Anatolia (that is if you believe languages and genes spread together).  That could put R1b in the area of PIE even before PIE had fully formed.

Finally, there is no certainty that L23 and downstream was actually the farming language.  The only map I have seen of L23* variance actually places higher variance in an arc from around Armenia through the west side of the Black Sea, along the top of the latter and into Romania.  There is a possibility that the more southerly groups in the PIE world could have been R1b and headed into Anatolia and Romania from an intermediate point along the north coasts of the Black Sea or adjacent.   .  

Finally, and this is a real question rather than a rhetorical one, is the concept of R1a and R1b people belonging to really radically separated language families like some sort of pre-PIE on the one hand and Afro-Asiastic viable?  How deep do linguists calculate the common ancestor of those language branches?

Finally, we often talk about the hypothesis that R1b spread with some mega-advantage of lactose persistence developed by them perhaps being linked to dairying evolving in NW Anatolia before 6000BC and entering SE Europe before 5000BC. If this is all true then surely an steppes hunters would have been at a tremendous selective disadvantage in starting regular milk use far later?    

How do you know the steepe didn't have pure R1a societies? Given the lack of R1b in Andronovo, Scythians, the Tarim Basin samples it seems the steepe was entirely R1a till a relatively late date. R1b-M269 has almost zero presence in Central Asia.

And trying to portray R1a speakers as some sort of backwards individuals stealing idea from their superior R1b neighbors isn't wrongheaded? The R1a carriers were advanced in their own ways. The R1b supremacy is getting old.

And regarding the bolded section: And now trying to make R1b the entire PIE group by putting its origins in Anatolia is ok but when people say R1a made up the entire PIE core it is apparently wrong.

The Yamna study should settle this debate once it comes out.

I am not saying that at all.  I am following some version of the Kurgan idea for now as I think that the evidence is currently favouring that.  I am not some sort of obstinate person who will not move with evidence because it doesnt agree with what I thought when the evidence is different. I press hard when there is doubt and am not easily satisfied until things are clear cut.  I do like taking reverse positions to test models. and was trained to do that.

 I am not trying to state that IE originated in Anatolia in my post.  What I am saying is there was a non-R1a group in the PIE area before PIE had fully formed and they may have exited that area and headed into Anatolia after a period in an intermediate location.

The point is  the Anatolian branch was clearly in the PIE area from a very early stage and separated off and they are very unlikely to be R1a and much more likely to have been L23*.  So Anatolian shows R1b was in the soon-to-be PIE mix at an early stage and undoubtedly contributed to creating the reconstructed PIE society.  IIf R1b was more farming associated and was the in the mix of Anatolian or some proto-proto-IE society it kind of demonstrates that R1b was not some late addition to some already developed PIE language and society but was in the mix while it was still developing.  This would hardly be surprising given that farming influences were seeping into the steppes for well over a 1000 years before the currently favoured earliest date of PIE.  That takes nothing away from the lR1a element which was clearly also very important.  As to the location of Anatolian, the majority view is that they were not in Anatolia and were some sort of fission from the PIE area a little before PIE had fully developed.  I think that on balance R1b and R1a were in the area where PIE was developing before it had taken its reconstructed PIE form both in linguistic and terms of the final reconstructed PIE society.  

 Without them (assuming that R1b people were indeed farmers) the steppes peoples would have remained hunter gatherers. The farming aspect was crucial.  Without them there would be no PIE society as reconstructed.  

This is nonsense. R1b is 15% of Anatolian lineages and R1a is 7%. By your faulty logic J2a is really the PIE lineage. You are indeed trying to take something away from R1a by placing PIE in an area with lesser amounts of R1a so you say R1a received PIE from superior R1b carriers who civilized R1a carriers.

lol I never said that and I didnt place PIE anywhere.  In fact I followed a broadly steppes model. I didnt say anything specific about location.  However, if you push me for comment on location I will. Lets put it this way the most favoured theory is that Anatolian broke off from proto-proto-PIE by a western route through the Balkans to Anatolia.  I think the evidence of Anatolian (not Anatolia) is important.  They appear to have been participating in the development towards PIE yet are thought to have been westerly placed.  I think the whole development of proto-IE is a lot more nuanced than the simple R1a v R1b tone in this thread.

I also said its not even clear that R1b was 'the farmers'.  They could also have been some people holed up in some corner around the Black Sea and had nothing to do with early farming.  An alternative theory would be L23* was also in the steppes and intruded into Anatolia from north of the Black Sea.    The L23* variance map shows as high variance to the north as it does in Anatolia or the Aegean. In fact its quite low around that sea.  As for upstream of L23* I dont think we are on safe grounds at all with M269* etc.  I have been told the north Mesopotamian variance peak is not safe when it is examined in detail.

I also think the fact that both R1 peoples may have not been separated for a drastically long period (something that is unknown) makes the idea that they were from completely different language families very dubious anyway.  Anatolian or proto-PIE might be perhaps 7000 years old??? Its only 6000 years since the reconstructed PIE time favoured by the majority.  I think the R1b and R1a peoples probably were rather closer in language than is portrayed.  Even if R1b was a farming 'old Europe' or Anatolian group they would have had some contract from perhaps as long as 8000 years ago.  At the contact period (which is far older than PIE) even if they had been separated since the Younger Dryas they were still only around 3000 years separated, only half of the time depth that separates modern IE languages today from PIE.  

So I think we need to stop treating the R1 terrible twins as some sort of utter aliens from each other.  At the point of re-contact a 3000 years separation would have been no more than the separation depth of  Welsh and Irish Insular Celtic languages today.  

20-20 vision for the splinter of differences and blindness for the plank of wood that is similarities has been a bad force in this world IMO.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 24, 2012, 03:49:22 PM
One other thought is that premise of much of these discussions is that languages spread with genes.  If R1b was not an early part of the PIE world then the premise falls at the first hurdle.  R1b is pretty well the most likely smoking gun for IE in all of western Europe after all.  

Doesn't mean R1b is the source pf PIE in Eastern Europe.

I didnt say that.  Not everyone is into some sort of black and white R1a vs R1b winner takes all type imagining of this.  I think you are reading other peoples attitudes in a way that says more about your own than others.  The only person coming across as wanting exclusivity to IE is you. 

It was probably a combination of both.  Remember too while the time depth and location of PIE can be narrowed down by palaeolinguistics its not that specific. PIE language and society as reconstructed is an end game not the process.  It reflects a period 2000 years into the contract between(some)  steppes hunters and (some) farmers.   


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 24, 2012, 03:54:29 PM
Doesn't mean R1b is the source pf PIE in Eastern Europe.

And therein lies the problem...nobody says it was.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 24, 2012, 04:05:09 PM
I am willing to be persuaded on that idea but it still feels unclear.  is the main source for this Harrison and Heyd or are there other papers that flesh this out.  I am totally open minded on this and maybe I should re-read H&H but it didnt feel like a closed case.  

Harrison and Heyd do not make it easy for the reader, certainly. Their abstract coyly hints. The text is dense and detailed. They probably feel that the conclusion is obvious, but you are not the only one to complain that it isn't. I have already had to spell things out on this forum once, with page references, for another user who actually accused me of lying about it! I frankly don't feel like dragging this huge paper out again and repeating the exercise. But here are a few points off the top of my head.

  • The earliest anthropomorphic stelae are on the Crimea and adjacent steppe.
  • The stelae are associated with a Yamnaya package, many items of which are inherited by several cultures, including Bell Beaker.
  • There is no break at Sion between the Stelae People and the Bell Beaker People. On the contrary the Bell Beaker people keep up the monuments created by the Stelae People. Bell Beaker patterns appear on some anthropomorphic stelae.
  • The break actually comes between Bell Beaker phases. (The political shift.)

Further evidence was supplied by the inherited dental traits study. J. Desideri and M. Besse, Swiss Bell Beaker population dynamics: eastern or southern influences?, Archaeological and Anthropological Sciences, vol. 2, no. 3 (September 2010), pp. 157-173. It showed that in Southern France, Northern Spain and Western Switzerland, Bell Beaker people not only shared the graves and settlements of their Final Neolithic and Copper Age predecessors, but were actually related to them.
 
[Added] By the way Desideri has a larger study published: Jocelyne Desideri, When Beakers Met Bell Beakers An analysis of dental remains, BAR S2292 2011
    


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Humanist on May 24, 2012, 04:22:38 PM
I have been told the north Mesopotamian variance peak is not safe when it is examined in detail.

I do not believe L23 arose in N Mesopotamia, but I am curious why the variance among N Mesopotamians is "not safe," according to your source.  The Alawites and Druze have significant variance as well, I believe.  Though, I am not certain on that last point.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 24, 2012, 04:25:20 PM
I am willing to be persuaded on that idea but it still feels unclear.  is the main source for this Harrison and Heyd or are there other papers that flesh this out.  I am totally open minded on this and maybe I should re-read H&H but it didnt feel like a closed case.  

Harrison and Heyd do not make it easy for the reader, certainly. Their abstract coyly hints. The text is dense and detailed. They probably feel that the conclusion is obvious, but you are not the only one to complain that it isn't. I have already had to spell things out on this forum once, with page references, for another user who actually accused me of lying about it! I frankly don't feel like dragging this huge paper out again and repeating the exercise. But here are a few points off the top of my head.

  • The earliest anthropomorphic stelae are on the Crimea and adjacent steppe.
  • The stelae are associated with a Yamnaya package, many items of which are inherited by several cultures, including Bell Beaker.
  • There is no break at Sion between the Stelae People and the Bell Beaker People. On the contrary the Bell Beaker people keep up the monuments created by the Stelae People. Bell Beaker patterns appear on some anthropomorphic stelae.
  • The break actually comes between Bell Beaker phases. (The political shift.)

Further evidence was supplied by the inherited dental traits study. J. Desideri and M. Besse, Swiss Bell Beaker population dynamics: eastern or southern influences?, Archaeological and Anthropological Sciences, vol. 2, no. 3 (September 2010), pp. 157-173. It showed that in Southern France, Northern Spain and Western Switzerland, Bell Beaker people not only shared the graves and settlements of their Final Neolithic and Copper Age predecessors, but were actually related to them.
 
[Added] By the way Desideri has a larger study published: Jocelyne Desideri, When Beakers Met Bell Beakers An analysis of dental remains, BAR S2292 2011
    

Cheers.  I suppose I fell a need to flesh out a bit more about the Stelae People beyond the Stelae itself.  What other aspects other than the Stelae are characteristic of eastern roots?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 24, 2012, 04:27:04 PM
I have been told the north Mesopotamian variance peak is not safe when it is examined in detail.

I do not believe L23 arose in N Mesopotamia, but I am curious why the variance among N Mesopotamians is "not safe," according to your source.  The Alawites and Druze have significant variance as well, I believe.  Though, I am not certain on that last point.

The big problem is upstream of L23* everything seems incredibly uncertain.  M269* seems almost impossible to get a handle on. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Humanist on May 24, 2012, 04:30:36 PM
I have been told the north Mesopotamian variance peak is not safe when it is examined in detail.

I do not believe L23 arose in N Mesopotamia, but I am curious why the variance among N Mesopotamians is "not safe," according to your source.  The Alawites and Druze have significant variance as well, I believe.  Though, I am not certain on that last point.

The big problem is upstream of L23* everything seems incredibly uncertain.  M269* seems almost impossible to get a handle on. 

That is fine.  But, why is the variance specifically among north Mesopotamians suspect, according to your source?  Or, was it simply a general statement that you applied to all L23 variance figures? 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Humanist on May 24, 2012, 04:39:40 PM
I have been told the north Mesopotamian variance peak is not safe when it is examined in detail.

I do not believe L23 arose in N Mesopotamia, but I am curious why the variance among N Mesopotamians is "not safe," according to your source.  The Alawites and Druze have significant variance as well, I believe.  Though, I am not certain on that last point.

Actually, it appears among Druze, R-M269 variance is not that great.  So, it is highest among the Alawites and Assyrians then, out of the three. 

Druze data (R-P25 haplotypes) from Shlush et al. 


Code:
393 390 19 391 385a 385b 426 388 439 389i 392 389ii Predictor.RU Probability
14 24 14 10 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b-M343          50%
14 24 14 10 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b-M343          50%
13 24 14 10 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b-M343          51%
13 24 14 10 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 28 P-M45          100%
14 24 14 13 xx xx 12 12 xx 14 13 30 R1b1b1-M73 89%

12 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 14 28 R1b1b2-M269 100%
12 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 98%
12 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 98%
12 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 98%
12 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 98%
12 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 98%
12 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 98%
12 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 98%
12 25 14 10 xx xx 11 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 95%
12 25 14 10 xx xx 11 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 95%
13 24 14 10 xx xx 10 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 62%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 88%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 88%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 88%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 88%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 88%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 88%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 88%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 30 R1b1b2-M269 81%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 88%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 88%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 88%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 88%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 88%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 88%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 88%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 88%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 30 R1b1b2-M269 81%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 88%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 88%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 88%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 88%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 10 12 xx 13 13 29 R1b1b2-M269 78%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 14 13 30 R1b1b2-M269 96%
13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 14 13 30 R1b1b2-M269 96%
13 25 14 11 xx xx 12 12 xx 14 13 30 R1b1b2-M269 93%
14 24 14 10 xx xx 12 12 xx 14 13 30 R1b1b2-M269 95%
14 24 14 10 xx xx 12 12 xx 14 13 30 R1b1b2-M269 95%
14 24 14 10 xx xx 12 12 xx 14 13 32 R1b1b2-M269 84%
14 24 14 10 xx xx 12 12 xx 14 13 30 R1b1b2-M269 95%
14 24 14 10 xx xx 12 12 xx 14 13 30 R1b1b2-M269 95%


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 24, 2012, 04:43:36 PM
Cheers.  I suppose I fell a need to flesh out a bit more about the Stelae People beyond the Stelae itself.  What other aspects other than the Stelae are characteristic of eastern roots?

For me the Big Stuff is metallurgy and the Secondary Products Revolution. That's what transformed the economy of Europe. Of course the greater emphasis on the individual is important too. If you want the archaeological nitty-gritty, the paper presents eleven components of the Yamnaya Package on pp. 196-7 and goes on to  discuss which cultures adopted these. They include lockenringe (which were found with the Amesbury Archer) and corded decoration on pottery.    


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 24, 2012, 06:55:22 PM
I do not believe L23 arose in N Mesopotamia, but I am curious why the variance among N Mesopotamians is "not safe," according to your source. 

Alan may be referring to my comment further up this thread that I don't try to use variance to pin-point origins that far back in time. There has been too much subsequent movement. For example it is estimated that over 4 million people were displaced within the Assyrian Empire. Whole communities were moved from one corner of the empire to another. That sort of thing blurs the details of older migrations. We may be left with a bit of a hint in very broad geographical outline. It is not impossible that L23 arose somewhere in the vicinity of northern Mesopotamia. I've just guessed that R1b was a bit further north in the mountain valleys and by-passed Mesopotamia to move into and across Anatolia.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 24, 2012, 07:09:32 PM
I do not believe L23 arose in N Mesopotamia, but I am curious why the variance among N Mesopotamians is "not safe," according to your source.

Alan may be referring to my comment further up this thread that I don't try to use variance to pin-point origins that far back in time. There has been too much subsequent movement. For example it is estimated that over 4 million people were displaced within the Assyrian Empire. Whole communities were moved from one corner of the empire to another. That sort of thing blurs the details of older migrations. We may be left with a bit of a hint in very broad geographical outline. It is not impossible that L23 arose somewhere in the vicinity of northern Mesopotamia. I've just guessed that R1b was a bit further north in the mountain valleys and by-passed Mesopotamia to move into and across Anatolia.

I think the region encompassing Armenia, Eastern Anatolia and Western Iran is the home to R1b along with G, J2a and J1.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: MHammers on May 24, 2012, 07:29:29 PM
Cheers.  I suppose I fell a need to flesh out a bit more about the Stelae People beyond the Stelae itself.  What other aspects other than the Stelae are characteristic of eastern roots?

For me the Big Stuff is metallurgy and the Secondary Products Revolution. That's what transformed the economy of Europe. Of course the greater emphasis on the individual is important too. If you want the archaeological nitty-gritty, the paper presents eleven components of the Yamnaya Package on pp. 196-7 and goes on to  discuss which cultures adopted these. They include lockenringe (which were found with the Amesbury Archer) and corded decoration on pottery.    

I was looking at one of the Desideri's studies again and she has the Bell Beaker groups in Czech Rep. clustering somewhat upstream  with the Obeba-Pitvaros group of the Maros culture.  Do you know if the Maros or Pitvaros cultures are related to either Bell Beaker or Yamnaya?  Supposing the males from Kromsdorf ancestors came from the east group, either south Germany or Bohemia, then this might be a possible connection.  However, the earliest date I've seen for Maros is 2500 BC which is problematic.



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 24, 2012, 07:34:19 PM
I do not believe L23 arose in N Mesopotamia, but I am curious why the variance among N Mesopotamians is "not safe," according to your source. 

Alan may be referring to my comment further up this thread that I don't try to use variance to pin-point origins that far back in time. There has been too much subsequent movement. For example it is estimated that over 4 million people were displaced within the Assyrian Empire. Whole communities were moved from one corner of the empire to another. That sort of thing blurs the details of older migrations. We may be left with a bit of a hint in very broad geographical outline. It is not impossible that L23 arose somewhere in the vicinity of northern Mesopotamia. I've just guessed that R1b was a bit further north in the mountain valleys and by-passed Mesopotamia to move into and across Anatolia.

I think the region encompassin Armenia, Eastern Anatolia and Western Iran is the home to R1b along with G, J2a and J1.

The linguists Gamkrelidze and Ivanov have proposed Eastern Anatolia/Armenia as the PIE Urheimat.

Of course, despite the apparently unsurpassed antiquity of the Anatolian branch of Indo-European, that is not a very popular notion here. I expect it is especially unpopular with R1a partisans.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 24, 2012, 07:55:40 PM
The Canary Islands R1b is only tested to M269 and most likely due to Spanish/Portuguese colonization.  

The samples were taken from cemeteries (details below) prior to the Hispanic capture and colonisation of the islands 1402 AD+. There had been contact previously between the islanders and other people e.g. Greeks, Romans.  However it is perfectly possible that the R1b arrived with the first Berber people to colonise the islands c. 1000 BC, ancestors of the Guanches. Bear in mind that Bell Beaker goods and remains have been found in Morocco that date to before this.  

c. 1000 AD : Tenerife (2210 ± 60 to 1720 ± 60 BP), Gomera (1743 ± 40 to 1493 ± 40 BP), Hierro (1740 ± 50 to 970 ± 50 BP) and Gran Canaria (1410 ± 60 to 750 ± 60 BP).

Is that from the study at the link posted by JeanL (this one: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/9/181 (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/9/181))?

Can you save me some time and tell me how many of the early remains tested R1b? I scanned that study a couple of times and could not find any really user-friendly, quick-to-access tables of aDNA results. From what I could see from one table, it looked like one

I work during the week and commute a long way to do so. I get a very limited amount of time to spend on dna-related stuff during the week.



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: JeanL on May 24, 2012, 09:26:59 PM
^Some data from the study

Quote from: Fregel.et.al.2009

From the 30 successfully amplified indigenous samples, 24 were from Gran Canaria, 3 from Fuerteventura, 2 from Tenerife and 2 from Gomera.

[...]

Surprisingly, R-M269 was also found in the indigenous sample in a moderate frequency (10%). Its presence in the indigenous people could be explained in two ways: (a) R-M269 was introduced into NW Africa in prehistoric not historical times, or (b) the presence of this marker in the aborigines was due to a prehispanic European gene flow into the indigenous population. As NW African R-M269 chromosomes showed close STR-similarity to the Iberian ones [17], pointing to recent contacts between both regions, the second option appears more plausible.

[...]

Due to the low variance of J-M267 in N Africa compared to that in the Middle East, its presence in the former has been related to the Arab expansion in the 7th century A.D. [36]. However, if the arrival of the indigenous people in the islands was around 1,000 years B.C. [48], the presence of J-M267 in NW Africa could be previous to the Arab expansion. Alternatively, this marker might have reached the islands with a second wave of colonists.

[...]

The presence of the I-M170 haplogroup in the indigenous sample (6.7%) deserves special attention.[/bb] This haplogroup is the only major clade of the Y-chromosome phylogeny that is widespread over Europe and almost absent elsewhere, suggesting that it originated there [49]. It is especially abundant in the eastern Mediterranean area, with its highest frequencies in the Balkans [50]. Therefore, the presence of this European Y-chromosome lineage in the indigenous pool is compatible with a direct Mediterranean input, or to a more ancient demic influx from Europe to N Africa than has yet been proposed [17].

[...]

Different founder effects on different islands could be a plausible explanation, since all the natives carrying I-M170 were from Gran Canaria, whereas the historical sample was taken from Tenerife.

Table-1:Y-chromosome haplogroup frequencies in the studied populations (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/9/181/table/T1)

Figure-2: Y-chromosome tree of haplogroups and absolute frequencies for each population. Y-chromosome tree, taken from Karafet et al. (2008), representing the genealogical relationships of the haplogroups characterized in this study, using diagnostic SNPs and their absolute frequencies in the indigenous (ABO) and historical (CON) samples from the Canaries.  (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/9/181/figure/F2)

 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 24, 2012, 09:44:48 PM
I do not believe L23 arose in N Mesopotamia, but I am curious why the variance among N Mesopotamians is "not safe," according to your source.

Alan may be referring to my comment further up this thread that I don't try to use variance to pin-point origins that far back in time. There has been too much subsequent movement. For example it is estimated that over 4 million people were displaced within the Assyrian Empire. Whole communities were moved from one corner of the empire to another. That sort of thing blurs the details of older migrations. We may be left with a bit of a hint in very broad geographical outline. It is not impossible that L23 arose somewhere in the vicinity of northern Mesopotamia. I've just guessed that R1b was a bit further north in the mountain valleys and by-passed Mesopotamia to move into and across Anatolia.

I think the region encompassin Armenia, Eastern Anatolia and Western Iran is the home to R1b along with G, J2a and J1.

The linguists Gamkrelidze and Ivanov have proposed Eastern Anatolia/Armenia as the PIE Urheimat.

Of course, despite the apparently unsurpassed antiquity of the Anatolian branch of Indo-European, that is not a very popular notion here. I expect it is especially unpopular with R1a partisans.

And I hope you R1b partisans realize this wouldn't automatically make R1b the PIE group. Why would it not be J2a then? Or maybe J1? Maybe even G2a?

Also the Anatolian/Armenian hypothesis has major flaws anyways.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 24, 2012, 10:21:08 PM
I do not believe L23 arose in N Mesopotamia, but I am curious why the variance among N Mesopotamians is "not safe," according to your source.

Alan may be referring to my comment further up this thread that I don't try to use variance to pin-point origins that far back in time. There has been too much subsequent movement. For example it is estimated that over 4 million people were displaced within the Assyrian Empire. Whole communities were moved from one corner of the empire to another. That sort of thing blurs the details of older migrations. We may be left with a bit of a hint in very broad geographical outline. It is not impossible that L23 arose somewhere in the vicinity of northern Mesopotamia. I've just guessed that R1b was a bit further north in the mountain valleys and by-passed Mesopotamia to move into and across Anatolia.

I think the region encompassin Armenia, Eastern Anatolia and Western Iran is the home to R1b along with G, J2a and J1.

The linguists Gamkrelidze and Ivanov have proposed Eastern Anatolia/Armenia as the PIE Urheimat.

Of course, despite the apparently unsurpassed antiquity of the Anatolian branch of Indo-European, that is not a very popular notion here. I expect it is especially unpopular with R1a partisans.

And I hope you R1b partisans realize this wouldn't automatically make R1b the PIE group. Why would it not be J2a then? Or maybe J1? Maybe even G2a?

Also the Anatolian/Armenian hypothesis is pretty laughable anyways.

Are you not reading the posts?!?!? Nobody is saying that R1b is "the" PIE pie group. Obviously R1a was a PIE group as well.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 24, 2012, 11:51:21 PM
I do not believe L23 arose in N Mesopotamia, but I am curious why the variance among N Mesopotamians is "not safe," according to your source.

Alan may be referring to my comment further up this thread that I don't try to use variance to pin-point origins that far back in time. There has been too much subsequent movement. For example it is estimated that over 4 million people were displaced within the Assyrian Empire. Whole communities were moved from one corner of the empire to another. That sort of thing blurs the details of older migrations. We may be left with a bit of a hint in very broad geographical outline. It is not impossible that L23 arose somewhere in the vicinity of northern Mesopotamia. I've just guessed that R1b was a bit further north in the mountain valleys and by-passed Mesopotamia to move into and across Anatolia.

I think the region encompassin Armenia, Eastern Anatolia and Western Iran is the home to R1b along with G, J2a and J1.

The linguists Gamkrelidze and Ivanov have proposed Eastern Anatolia/Armenia as the PIE Urheimat.

Of course, despite the apparently unsurpassed antiquity of the Anatolian branch of Indo-European, that is not a very popular notion here. I expect it is especially unpopular with R1a partisans.

And I hope you R1b partisans realize this wouldn't automatically make R1b the PIE group. Why would it not be J2a then? Or maybe J1? Maybe even G2a?

Also the Anatolian/Armenian hypothesis is pretty laughable anyways.

Are you not reading the posts?!?!? Nobody is saying that R1b is "the" PIE pie group. Obviously R1a was a PIE group as well.

I see people trying to push PIE into Anatolia and other regions followed by statements of low levels of R1a in those places. They are indeed trying to make R1b the only PIE group.

If this Anatolian hypothesis is right then J2a not R1b should be the PIE group.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: razyn on May 25, 2012, 12:23:30 AM
I see people trying to push PIE into Anatolia and other regions followed by statements of low levels of R1a in those places. They are indeed trying to make R1b the only PIE group.

There's also an R1a and Subclades forum, sort of:

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?board=2418.0


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 25, 2012, 04:55:54 AM
Is that from the study at the link posted by JeanL (this one: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/9/181 (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/9/181))?

Can you save me some time and tell me how many of the early remains tested R1b? one.  

Yes it's Fregal 2009. The details are on my website: Ancient DNA from North Africa and the Canary Islands (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/nafricaadna.shtml)

3 samples R1b1b2* (M269)


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 25, 2012, 05:22:11 AM
I see people trying to push PIE into Anatolia and other regions followed by statements of low levels of R1a in those places. They are indeed trying to make R1b the only PIE group.

Could that possibly be a reaction to statements that R1b has nothing to do with PIE?

To me - a woman who has no idea what Y-DNA haplogroups run in her family - it is clear that R1a and R1b are two halves of the same story, and furthermore other haplogroups were also involved to a lesser degree. I have been following that line since I first put Peopling of Europe online in March 2009.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 25, 2012, 05:54:53 AM
If this Anatolian hypothesis is right then J2a not R1b should be the PIE group.

You have put your finger on an important point. To me the fact that R1b of any type apparently did not travel with the earliest farmers, but in some of the later waves after the climate crisis of 6200 BC, suggests that R1b was tucked away somewhere in the Taurus/Zagros mountain valleys without easy access to the sea.  It seems that R1b-V88 made its way to the Levant by about 6000 and from there to North Africa with farmers.

It looks as though R1b-M269 made its way west across Anatolia, which was cool and wet around 6200 BC - good for cattle pasture - and then across into Europe.

See http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/neolithic.shtml#crisis     


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 25, 2012, 07:52:49 AM
If this Anatolian hypothesis is right then J2a not R1b should be the PIE group.

You have put your finger on an important point. To me the fact that R1b of any type apparently did not travel with the earliest farmers, but in some of the later waves after the climate crisis of 6200 BC, suggests that R1b was tucked away somewhere in the Taurus/Zagros mountain valleys without easy access to the sea.  It seems that R1b-V88 made its way to the Levant by about 6000 and from there to North Africa with farmers.

It looks as though R1b-M269 made its way west across Anatolia, which was cool and wet around 6200 BC - good for cattle pasture - and then across into Europe.

See http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/neolithic.shtml#crisis     

Interesting. I have always seen the homeland of R1b put into the Armenian Highland or the Taurus. But you  think it might have originated in the Zagros in Iran or spread there in a large wave at a very early date? While we are on the topic of farmers isn't it strange very little J1 made its way to Europe (and to a lesser extent J2a)?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 25, 2012, 07:58:07 AM
I do not believe L23 arose in N Mesopotamia, but I am curious why the variance among N Mesopotamians is "not safe," according to your source.

Alan may be referring to my comment further up this thread that I don't try to use variance to pin-point origins that far back in time. There has been too much subsequent movement. For example it is estimated that over 4 million people were displaced within the Assyrian Empire. Whole communities were moved from one corner of the empire to another. That sort of thing blurs the details of older migrations. We may be left with a bit of a hint in very broad geographical outline. It is not impossible that L23 arose somewhere in the vicinity of northern Mesopotamia. I've just guessed that R1b was a bit further north in the mountain valleys and by-passed Mesopotamia to move into and across Anatolia.

I think the region encompassin Armenia, Eastern Anatolia and Western Iran is the home to R1b along with G, J2a and J1.

The linguists Gamkrelidze and Ivanov have proposed Eastern Anatolia/Armenia as the PIE Urheimat.

Of course, despite the apparently unsurpassed antiquity of the Anatolian branch of Indo-European, that is not a very popular notion here. I expect it is especially unpopular with R1a partisans.

And I hope you R1b partisans realize this wouldn't automatically make R1b the PIE group. Why would it not be J2a then? Or maybe J1? Maybe even G2a?

Also the Anatolian/Armenian hypothesis is pretty laughable anyways.

Are you not reading the posts?!?!? Nobody is saying that R1b is "the" PIE pie group. Obviously R1a was a PIE group as well.

I see people trying to push PIE into Anatolia and other regions followed by statements of low levels of R1a in those places. They are indeed trying to make R1b the only PIE group.

If this Anatolian hypothesis is right then J2a not R1b should be the PIE group.

I think most of us see R1a as the eastern half of the story. You seem to want to make it the whole story, and it was you who accused us of being "racist" and "nationalist" for thinking that R1b has some connection to the IE story.

I mentioned Gamkrelidze and Ivanov just to make it clear that not all the experts are on board with the Pontic-Caspian Urheimat, which must first be assumed as correct for any of the R1a-centric arguments to have any force. Take away the P-C Urheimat and the whole house of cards collapses, since no one really knows what language or languages the inhabitants of the steppe spoke in the 4th and 3rd millenniums BC.



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 25, 2012, 08:13:24 AM
^Some data from the study

Quote from: Fregel.et.al.2009

From the 30 successfully amplified indigenous samples, 24 were from Gran Canaria, 3 from Fuerteventura, 2 from Tenerife and 2 from Gomera.

[...]

Surprisingly, R-M269 was also found in the indigenous sample in a moderate frequency (10%). Its presence in the indigenous people could be explained in two ways: (a) R-M269 was introduced into NW Africa in prehistoric not historical times, or (b) the presence of this marker in the aborigines was due to a prehispanic European gene flow into the indigenous population. As NW African R-M269 chromosomes showed close STR-similarity to the Iberian ones [17], pointing to recent contacts between both regions, the second option appears more plausible.

[...]

Due to the low variance of J-M267 in N Africa compared to that in the Middle East, its presence in the former has been related to the Arab expansion in the 7th century A.D. [36]. However, if the arrival of the indigenous people in the islands was around 1,000 years B.C. [48], the presence of J-M267 in NW Africa could be previous to the Arab expansion. Alternatively, this marker might have reached the islands with a second wave of colonists.

[...]

The presence of the I-M170 haplogroup in the indigenous sample (6.7%) deserves special attention.[/bb] This haplogroup is the only major clade of the Y-chromosome phylogeny that is widespread over Europe and almost absent elsewhere, suggesting that it originated there [49]. It is especially abundant in the eastern Mediterranean area, with its highest frequencies in the Balkans [50]. Therefore, the presence of this European Y-chromosome lineage in the indigenous pool is compatible with a direct Mediterranean input, or to a more ancient demic influx from Europe to N Africa than has yet been proposed [17].

[...]

Different founder effects on different islands could be a plausible explanation, since all the natives carrying I-M170 were from Gran Canaria, whereas the historical sample was taken from Tenerife.

Table-1:Y-chromosome haplogroup frequencies in the studied populations (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/9/181/table/T1)

Figure-2: Y-chromosome tree of haplogroups and absolute frequencies for each population. Y-chromosome tree, taken from Karafet et al. (2008), representing the genealogical relationships of the haplogroups characterized in this study, using diagnostic SNPs and their absolute frequencies in the indigenous (ABO) and historical (CON) samples from the Canaries.  (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/9/181/figure/F2)

 


Thanks, JeanL.

I see it in Figure 2: 3 out of 30.

I get up around 0300 to commute by train to work and don't get home until about 1800. I was too tired to read that report last evening and really didn't have the time or motivation.

I don't see how the presence of three relatively late R1b in the Canary Islands is the tremendous blow to the IE bona fides of R1b that pole tater (or whatever his screen name was) says it is.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 25, 2012, 08:34:41 AM
I don't see how the presence of three relatively late R1b in the Canary Islands is the tremendous blow to the IE bona fides of R1b that pole tater (or whatever his screen name was) says it is.

Right. It is clutching at straws. A bit of R1b might have arrived with Romans or Greeks, but it is perfectly possible that it arrived in the Canaries with the Berber settlers about 1000 BC, as Bell Beaker had quite an impact in Morocco earlier than that.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 25, 2012, 08:41:44 AM
...  the Pontic-Caspian Urheimat, which must first be assumed as correct for any of the R1a-centric arguments to have any force. Take away the P-C Urheimat and the whole house of cards collapses ...

Not for me. The basis of the idea that R1a1a and R1b1b2 spread with the Indo-Europeans is their present-day correlation with IE languages. Both of them. Two sides of the same story. This is not based on any homeland theory, but as it happens (surprise, surprise) fits the archaeological and genetic evidence for a spread east and west from the PC steppe. This can all be argued completely separately from the linguistic evidence that the PIE homeland was on the P-C steppe. But isn't it handy when the pieces fit?    


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 25, 2012, 08:50:24 AM
I do not believe L23 arose in N Mesopotamia, but I am curious why the variance among N Mesopotamians is "not safe," according to your source.

Alan may be referring to my comment further up this thread that I don't try to use variance to pin-point origins that far back in time. There has been too much subsequent movement. For example it is estimated that over 4 million people were displaced within the Assyrian Empire. Whole communities were moved from one corner of the empire to another. That sort of thing blurs the details of older migrations. We may be left with a bit of a hint in very broad geographical outline. It is not impossible that L23 arose somewhere in the vicinity of northern Mesopotamia. I've just guessed that R1b was a bit further north in the mountain valleys and by-passed Mesopotamia to move into and across Anatolia.

I think the region encompassin Armenia, Eastern Anatolia and Western Iran is the home to R1b along with G, J2a and J1.

The linguists Gamkrelidze and Ivanov have proposed Eastern Anatolia/Armenia as the PIE Urheimat.

Of course, despite the apparently unsurpassed antiquity of the Anatolian branch of Indo-European, that is not a very popular notion here. I expect it is especially unpopular with R1a partisans.

And I hope you R1b partisans realize this wouldn't automatically make R1b the PIE group. Why would it not be J2a then? Or maybe J1? Maybe even G2a?

Also the Anatolian/Armenian hypothesis is pretty laughable anyways.

Are you not reading the posts?!?!? Nobody is saying that R1b is "the" PIE pie group. Obviously R1a was a PIE group as well.

I see people trying to push PIE into Anatolia and other regions followed by statements of low levels of R1a in those places. They are indeed trying to make R1b the only PIE group.

If this Anatolian hypothesis is right then J2a not R1b should be the PIE group.

I think most of us see R1a as the eastern half of the story. You seem to want to make it the whole story, and it was you who accused us of being "racist" and "nationalist" for thinking that R1b has some connection to the IE story.

I mentioned Gamkrelidze and Ivanov just to make it clear that not all the experts are on board with the Pontic-Caspian Urheimat, which must first be assumed as correct for any of the R1a-centric arguments to have any force. Take away the P-C Urheimat and the whole house of cards collapses, since no one really knows what language or languages the inhabitants of the steppe spoke in the 4th and 3rd millenniums BC.



Yes if you take away the best model for PIE the sotry becomes less R1a cenetric. It was someone else who shifted PIE to Anatolia ignoring that this would make R1b less important. If you want to go down that path J2 and G would be PIE groups as well.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 25, 2012, 09:11:35 AM
...  the Pontic-Caspian Urheimat, which must first be assumed as correct for any of the R1a-centric arguments to have any force. Take away the P-C Urheimat and the whole house of cards collapses ...

Not for me. The basis of the idea that R1a1a and R1b1b2 spread with the Indo-Europeans is their present-day correlation with IE languages. Both of them. Two sides of the same story. This is not based on any homeland theory, but as it happens (surprise, surprise) fits the archaeological and genetic evidence for a spread east and west from the PC steppe. This can all be argued completely separately from the linguistic evidence that the PIE homeland was on the P-C steppe. But isn't it handy when the pieces fit?    

Apparently they don't fit for everyone in quite the same way. We have the posts on this thread of two stellar examples of the sorts of R1a partisans who haunt most dna discussion fora but who, until now, have been blessedly absent from this one. For them, the puzzle fits together to reveal an R1a-dominated panorama.

For me, I remain unconvinced. I think the antiquity of the Anatolian branch is a problem for the P-C steppe Urheimat, as is the possibility of the existence of  Euphratic, which I am not expert enough to dismiss so peremptorily.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 25, 2012, 09:25:28 AM


Yes if you take away the best model for PIE the sotry becomes less R1a cenetric. It was someone else who shifted PIE to Anatolia ignoring that this would make R1b less important. If you want to go down that path J2 and G would be PIE groups as well.

Just what the "best" model is is a matter of opinion, and not all the experts agree.

J2 and G could very well be a part of the IE story. No doubt they are, to some extent at least.

R1a looks good for the eastern spread of Indo-European, but not for the western. It dwindles to next to nothing in the West, and what is there can often be accounted for historically. R1a is pretty clearly connected to the satem languages, while R1b is far and away more frequent among speakers of centum languages.



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 25, 2012, 09:36:45 AM
...  the Pontic-Caspian Urheimat, which must first be assumed as correct for any of the R1a-centric arguments to have any force. Take away the P-C Urheimat and the whole house of cards collapses ...
Not for me. The basis of the idea that R1a1a and R1b1b2 spread with the Indo-Europeans is their present-day correlation with IE languages. Both of them. Two sides of the same story. This is not based on any homeland theory, but as it happens (surprise, surprise) fits the archaeological and genetic evidence for a spread east and west from the PC steppe. This can all be argued completely separately from the linguistic evidence that the PIE homeland was on the P-C steppe. But isn't it handy when the pieces fit?    
Apparently they don't fit for everyone in quite the same way. We have the posts on this thread of two stellar examples of the sorts of R1a partisans who haunt most dna discussion fora but who, until now, have been blessedly absent from this one. For them, the puzzle fits together to reveal an R1a-dominated panorama....
A lot of the puzzle pieces do line up, at least better than anything else, IMO. I lean towards the Pontic Steppes, slightly extended, as being the Proto-IndoEuropean homeland. By slightly extended I include Cucuteni-Tripolye lands and even down into the Caucasus.

As far as citing some of the "stellar partisans," I don't think such citations are useful arguments. This is not to say everything they say is wrong, but their "house of cards" as you say call it, has some mighty and unfounded assumptions that are cause to consider the credibility of the stellar partisans themselves.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 25, 2012, 09:46:18 AM
I do not believe L23 arose in N Mesopotamia, but I am curious why the variance among N Mesopotamians is "not safe," according to your source.

Alan may be referring to my comment further up this thread that I don't try to use variance to pin-point origins that far back in time. There has been too much subsequent movement. For example it is estimated that over 4 million people were displaced within the Assyrian Empire. Whole communities were moved from one corner of the empire to another. That sort of thing blurs the details of older migrations. We may be left with a bit of a hint in very broad geographical outline. It is not impossible that L23 arose somewhere in the vicinity of northern Mesopotamia. I've just guessed that R1b was a bit further north in the mountain valleys and by-passed Mesopotamia to move into and across Anatolia.

I think the region encompassin Armenia, Eastern Anatolia and Western Iran is the home to R1b along with G, J2a and J1.

The linguists Gamkrelidze and Ivanov have proposed Eastern Anatolia/Armenia as the PIE Urheimat.

Of course, despite the apparently unsurpassed antiquity of the Anatolian branch of Indo-European, that is not a very popular notion here. I expect it is especially unpopular with R1a partisans.

And I hope you R1b partisans realize this wouldn't automatically make R1b the PIE group. Why would it not be J2a then? Or maybe J1? Maybe even G2a?

Also the Anatolian/Armenian hypothesis has major flaws anyways.

Interested, it looks like you changed your tone slightly in an edit (original below), which is nice.

.... Also the Anatolian/Armenian hypothesis is pretty laughable anyways.

Nevetheless, could you be specific and explain the major flaws in the Anatolian/Armenian hypothesis.  I suspect you are correct, but I would appreciate a better understanding of this.  

Jean M, you probably have an assessment on this as well.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 25, 2012, 09:51:49 AM


Yes if you take away the best model for PIE the sotry becomes less R1a cenetric. It was someone else who shifted PIE to Anatolia ignoring that this would make R1b less important. If you want to go down that path J2 and G would be PIE groups as well.

Just what the "best" model is is a matter of opinion, and not all the experts agree.

J2 and G could very well be a part of the IE story. No doubt they are, to some extent at least.

R1a looks good for the eastern spread of Indo-European, but not for the western. It dwindles to next to nothing in the West, and what is there can often be accounted for historically. R1a is pretty clearly connected to the satem languages, while R1b is far and away more frequent among speakers of centum languages.



I really doubt J2 and G have anything to do with IE. I could care less if they do. J2, G, R1a, R1b are all found in my ethnicity so I don't know why people think I have a personal reason to be biased towards R1a.

And where does centum Tocharian fit into this? Not with R1b carriers.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 25, 2012, 09:56:49 AM
I do not believe L23 arose in N Mesopotamia, but I am curious why the variance among N Mesopotamians is "not safe," according to your source.

Alan may be referring to my comment further up this thread that I don't try to use variance to pin-point origins that far back in time. There has been too much subsequent movement. For example it is estimated that over 4 million people were displaced within the Assyrian Empire. Whole communities were moved from one corner of the empire to another. That sort of thing blurs the details of older migrations. We may be left with a bit of a hint in very broad geographical outline. It is not impossible that L23 arose somewhere in the vicinity of northern Mesopotamia. I've just guessed that R1b was a bit further north in the mountain valleys and by-passed Mesopotamia to move into and across Anatolia.

I think the region encompassin Armenia, Eastern Anatolia and Western Iran is the home to R1b along with G, J2a and J1.

The linguists Gamkrelidze and Ivanov have proposed Eastern Anatolia/Armenia as the PIE Urheimat.

Of course, despite the apparently unsurpassed antiquity of the Anatolian branch of Indo-European, that is not a very popular notion here. I expect it is especially unpopular with R1a partisans.

And I hope you R1b partisans realize this wouldn't automatically make R1b the PIE group. Why would it not be J2a then? Or maybe J1? Maybe even G2a?

Also the Anatolian/Armenian hypothesis has major flaws anyways.

Interested, it looks like you changed your tone slightly in an edit (original below), which is nice.

.... Also the Anatolian/Armenian hypothesis is pretty laughable anyways.

Nevetheless, could you be specific and explain the major flaws in the Anatolian/Armenian hypothesis.  I suspect you are correct, but I would appreciate a better understanding of this.  

Jean M, you probably have an assessment on this as well.

How does a hunter gatherer language come from Anatolia to begin with? Did J2a and G2a Anatolians all decide to stay home and not make it to Europe?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 25, 2012, 10:03:21 AM
...  the Pontic-Caspian Urheimat, which must first be assumed as correct for any of the R1a-centric arguments to have any force. Take away the P-C Urheimat and the whole house of cards collapses ...

Not for me. The basis of the idea that R1a1a and R1b1b2 spread with the Indo-Europeans is their present-day correlation with IE languages. Both of them. Two sides of the same story. This is not based on any homeland theory, but as it happens (surprise, surprise) fits the archaeological and genetic evidence for a spread east and west from the PC steppe. This can all be argued completely separately from the linguistic evidence that the PIE homeland was on the P-C steppe. But isn't it handy when the pieces fit?    

Apparently they don't fit for everyone in quite the same way. We have the posts on this thread of two stellar examples of the sorts of R1a partisans who haunt most dna discussion fora but who, until now, have been blessedly absent from this one. For them, the puzzle fits together to reveal an R1a-dominated panorama.

For me, I remain unconvinced. I think the antiquity of the Anatolian branch is a problem for the P-C steppe Urheimat, as is the possibility of the existence of  Euphratic, which I am not expert enough to dismiss so peremptorily.

Yes I am the partisan. Not people such as you relying on fringe theories such as Euphratic or shifting the PIE homeland to an R1b area. Or the individuals who believe in the Anatolian hypothesis which is not accepted by most people in the field. But people relying on outdated and fringe theories are unbiased ones who unfortunate have to deal with people like us.  The majority of the posters on this site believe R1a carriers got IE languages from R1b carriers.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 25, 2012, 10:38:19 AM
The majority of the posters on this site believe R1a carriers got IE languages from R1b carriers.

A couple of people might have suggested that at some point. That is the sort of thing that happens when people have freedom of speech and like to use it to toss ideas around. I cannot speak for the majority. I don't even know what the majority think. But you have had assurances from more than one person on this thread that talking about R1b as Indo-European does not mean cutting R1a1a out of the story.

This just happens to be an R1b forum and so people talk a lot about R1b here. OK?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 25, 2012, 10:39:00 AM
Yes if you take away the best model for PIE the sotry becomes less R1a cenetric. It was someone else who shifted PIE to Anatolia ignoring that this would make R1b less important. If you want to go down that path J2 and G would be PIE groups as well.
Just what the "best" model is is a matter of opinion, and not all the experts agree.
J2 and G could very well be a part of the IE story. No doubt they are, to some extent at least.

R1a looks good for the eastern spread of Indo-European, but not for the western. It dwindles to next to nothing in the West, and what is there can often be accounted for historically. R1a is pretty clearly connected to the satem languages, while R1b is far and away more frequent among speakers of centum languages.

I really doubt J2 and G have anything to do with IE. I could care less if they do. J2, G, R1a, R1b are all found in my ethnicity so I don't know why people think I have a personal reason to be biased towards R1a.

And where does centum Tocharian fit into this? Not with R1b carriers.

RMS is citing a correlation of R1b frequency with Centum IE language speakers, however, he makes no claim that all Centum IE languages originated with R1b people.

On the other hand, you cite an argument by exception of Tocharian being Centum and not necessarily R1b. That makes no sense unless RMS is claiming that all Centum is R1b based, which he isn't.

Please, please try to recognize that 100% purity is not available in all things. The Centum languages aren't necessarily closer related to each other than Satem languages. It's just that Satem languages include innovations that Centum languages don't. In other words, Centum languages are a paragroup. They are just all other PIE originated languages.

Similarly, the Yamna horizon is just an horizon with a multiplicity of cultures. It is not monolithic nor necessarily pure.

If we find R1a folks in some non-IE speaking languages, should we argue by exception that R1a was not in the source population for PIE?  Of course, not.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 25, 2012, 10:41:54 AM
The majority of the posters on this site believe R1a carriers got IE languages from R1b carriers.

A couple of people might have suggested that at some point. That is the sort of thing that happens when people have freedom of speech and like to use it to toss ideas around. I cannot speak for the majority. I don't even know what the majority think. But you have had assurances from more than one person on this thread that talking about R1b as Indo-European does not mean cutting R1a1a out of the story.

This just happens to be an R1b forum and so people talk a lot about R1b here. OK?

Yes, Jean M is correct.

If you think that "majority of the posters on this site believe R1a carriers got IE languages from R1b" then you should start a thread and conduct a poll, rather than making an assumption. You know what happens when you assume, right?



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: NealtheRed on May 25, 2012, 10:42:44 AM
The majority of the posters on this site believe R1a carriers got IE languages from R1b carriers.

A couple of people might have suggested that at some point. That is the sort of thing that happens when people have freedom of speech and like to use it to toss ideas around. I cannot speak for the majority. I don't even know what the majority think. But you have had assurances from more than one person on this thread that talking about R1b as Indo-European does not mean cutting R1a1a out of the story.

This just happens to be an R1b forum and so people talk a lot about R1b here. OK?

Jean makes a good point. No one here is espousing an "end all, take all" position on IE, but that it is more complex than an idea such as armor-clad, R1a nomads raining down on Europe, riding white unicorns, and spreading IE in their wake.

Something apparently bothers this interestedinhistory fellow about R1b. Is it NATO? The British Empire? Beats the heck out of me.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 25, 2012, 10:48:23 AM
I do not believe L23 arose in N Mesopotamia, but I am curious why the variance among N Mesopotamians is "not safe," according to your source.

Alan may be referring to my comment further up this thread that I don't try to use variance to pin-point origins that far back in time. There has been too much subsequent movement. For example it is estimated that over 4 million people were displaced within the Assyrian Empire. Whole communities were moved from one corner of the empire to another. That sort of thing blurs the details of older migrations. We may be left with a bit of a hint in very broad geographical outline. It is not impossible that L23 arose somewhere in the vicinity of northern Mesopotamia. I've just guessed that R1b was a bit further north in the mountain valleys and by-passed Mesopotamia to move into and across Anatolia.

I think the region encompassin Armenia, Eastern Anatolia and Western Iran is the home to R1b along with G, J2a and J1.

The linguists Gamkrelidze and Ivanov have proposed Eastern Anatolia/Armenia as the PIE Urheimat.

Of course, despite the apparently unsurpassed antiquity of the Anatolian branch of Indo-European, that is not a very popular notion here. I expect it is especially unpopular with R1a partisans.

And I hope you R1b partisans realize this wouldn't automatically make R1b the PIE group. Why would it not be J2a then? Or maybe J1? Maybe even G2a?

Also the Anatolian/Armenian hypothesis has major flaws anyways.

Interested, it looks like you changed your tone slightly in an edit (original below), which is nice.

.... Also the Anatolian/Armenian hypothesis is pretty laughable anyways.

Nevetheless, could you be specific and explain the major flaws in the Anatolian/Armenian hypothesis.  I suspect you are correct, but I would appreciate a better understanding of this.  

Jean M, you probably have an assessment on this as well.

How does a hunter gatherer language come from Anatolia to begin with? Did J2a and G2a Anatolians all decide to stay home and not make it to Europe?

I think you are answering a question with a question. This forces us to infer your points.

Is it correct that you think that among the major flaws in an Anatolian/Armenian PIE hypothesis, you find?
- PIE is a hunter-gatherer based language and if it came from Anatolia it must have included J2a and G2a with it, but J2a and G2a were not in the PIE source populations.

Please describe specifically your point.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 25, 2012, 10:53:31 AM
...  the Pontic-Caspian Urheimat, which must first be assumed as correct for any of the R1a-centric arguments to have any force. Take away the P-C Urheimat and the whole house of cards collapses ...

Not for me. The basis of the idea that R1a1a and R1b1b2 spread with the Indo-Europeans is their present-day correlation with IE languages. Both of them. Two sides of the same story. This is not based on any homeland theory, but as it happens (surprise, surprise) fits the archaeological and genetic evidence for a spread east and west from the PC steppe. This can all be argued completely separately from the linguistic evidence that the PIE homeland was on the P-C steppe. But isn't it handy when the pieces fit?    

Apparently they don't fit for everyone in quite the same way. We have the posts on this thread of two stellar examples of the sorts of R1a partisans who haunt most dna discussion fora but who, until now, have been blessedly absent from this one. For them, the puzzle fits together to reveal an R1a-dominated panorama.

For me, I remain unconvinced. I think the antiquity of the Anatolian branch is a problem for the P-C steppe Urheimat, as is the possibility of the existence of  Euphratic, which I am not expert enough to dismiss so peremptorily.

Yes I am the partisan. Not people such as you relying on fringe theories such as Euphratic or shifting the PIE homeland to an R1b area. Or the individuals who believe in the Anatolian hypothesis which is not accepted by most people in the field. But people relying on outdated and fringe theories are unbiased ones who unfortunate have to deal with people like us.  The majority of the posters on this site believe R1a carriers got IE languages from R1b carriers.

No they dont.  Noone in this thread right now is talking about the Anatolian option.  We are just talking about the subtler detail of the Kurgan type models, not contradicting it in this thread.  When people say Anatolian they dont meant Anatolia geographically.  They mean that a group which eventually ended up in Anatolia (probably by a western route if the Kurgan model is correct) had an extremely early form of pre-proto IE.  Where they were located is not clear.  They may have moved into Anatolia from the west side of the Black Sea.  However, that would be incredibly useful to know because their language betrays a presence within and a fission from the groups who were heading towards PIE at an early stage perhaps in the 5th millenium BC.  


The majority just believe it is still, as it has been for generations, hardly an open shut case or at least it remains rather vague and the evidence subtle.  I think we all agree that a social change swept Europe but the mechanisms, directions, degree of responsibility of one group or another in different areas IMO remains obscure.  Too obscure anyway for the standards of proof I feel happy with.  We have one beaker R1b family grave group and one R1a Corded Ware family group and some rather later steppes R1a related groups.  That is a ludicrously small sample of ancient DNA to conclude anything on.  

As for the location of R1b, its becomee obvious for a while since ancient DNA came available and the variances were better understood that R1b places well away from the main stream of the farmers who entered Europe in the first waves of Balkans, Linearbandkeramik and Cardial cultures.  As Jean says, it wasnt near the Anatolian or Levan coasts and land routes into Europe it appears.  I would think the conclusion that it was somewhere east and inland is plausible.  Dienekes recently suggested that G, J and R1b have a pattern in the Caucuses suggestinve that they were west, south and east relative to each other and the Caucuses.  G and J fo not look like they had a similar position to R1b at all according to ancient Neolithic DNA.   This also agrees with the R23* map which shows low in the west of Anatolia and Levant in terms of variance.  So, I think although we may not all have identical models, Jean, Dienekes, myself and others are kind of pulling towards a similar conclusion that R1b was north-eastern relative to the centre of Mesolopotamia.  How north-easterly is another question.  R1b could have been holed up in Iran or another option is its absense in early Neolithic is simply because R1b peoples did not take up farming until late (possibly also linked to geopraphy) rather like the R1a people seem to have (although again this link to steppe hunters is not proven as such).

I think your strangely certain feeling that we are dealing with R1a-steppes hunters and R1b/G/J/E are the first farmers needs serious revision.  Ancient Neolithic DNA shows R1b was more like R1a in that it seems to have been tucked away from the path and spread of farming into Europe.  As I have posted a couple of times without comment the idea that R1b peoples languages were as different from R1a as J,G and E were is nonsense.  The time depth of any seperation prior to renewed contact was probably no more than 3000 years, less than the time depth between the seperation of Irish and Welsh today in linguistic terms.  So, stop trying to force R1b into the G/E/J camp of early farmers on the pathways west into Europe because the evidence is totally against this in terms of ancient DNA sampling.  R1b and R1a shared peripherality (if that is a word?) to the origin and flow of farming.  The details remain uncertain although I would tend to agree that R1b was likely holed up somewhere west or south (but not hugely so) of R1a.  


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 25, 2012, 11:08:21 AM
Changing the subject somewhat, I believe it was on this thread that Alan expressed some interest in Beaker skulls. I came across an interesting comment on Dienekes' blog by a person with the screen name Derek. Here it is.

Quote from: Derek
I've found all these references to the Beaker Folk's distinct skull type extremely interesting and am trying to educate myself on the subject. A lot of the relevant academic papers seem to cite a 1953 book by Kurt Gerhardt (Die Glockenbecherleute in Mittel-und Westdeutschland) in which the author made a detailed study of 130 BB skulls. I haven't been able to find the book, but found an old review of it on JSTOR:

"The Bell-Beaker pottery and a type of skull called by Gerhardt Plano-Occipital Steilkopf appear together in late Neolithic times in Central Europe; and Gerhardt gives us a study of 130 skulls, with sketches of 73 of them, where possible three sketches of each being shown. The Plano-Occipital Steilkopf with the back of the head almost a vertical plane is the chief, the most numerous and the most marked type among the skulls showing strong brows and jaws and other features with a considerable range of variation. ........

Gerhardt emphasizes the anatomical relation of the chief type of Beaker Men to an Anatolian-Armenian breed in a proportion of the men in which one finds that steep rise of the hinder plane of the skull, but admits that there is as yet too little evidence from Armenia of the Beaker period. His view is that the type spread west in the Mediterranean."

Here's the link if you have access to JSTOR:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/2795139


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/05/bell-beakers-from-germany-y-haplogroup.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/05/bell-beakers-from-germany-y-haplogroup.html)

Steilkopf literally means "steep head".

The possible connection to Anatolia/Armenia is interesting, to say the least.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: razyn on May 25, 2012, 12:04:26 PM
Changing the subject somewhat, I believe it was on this thread that Alan expressed some interest in Beaker skulls.
...
Steilkopf literally means "steep head".

The possible connection to Anatolia/Armenia is interesting, to say the least.

Any opinions on the possible connection to nomadism, or a tribal history of it, with babies' heads bound to a board or something as the family spent a lot of time on the move?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 25, 2012, 12:55:06 PM
Yes I am the partisan. Not people such as you relying on fringe theories such as Euphratic or shifting the PIE homeland to an R1b area. Or the individuals who believe in the Anatolian hypothesis which is not accepted by most people in the field. But people relying on outdated and fringe theories are unbiased ones who unfortunate have to deal with people like us.  The majority of the posters on this site believe R1a carriers got IE languages from R1b carriers.

If you still think that after so many people have tried many times to assure you that that is not the case, then maybe you should change your handle to "InterestedinTrolling".


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 25, 2012, 01:24:43 PM
The majority of the posters on this site believe R1a carriers got IE languages from R1b carriers.

A couple of people might have suggested that at some point. That is the sort of thing that happens when people have freedom of speech and like to use it to toss ideas around. I cannot speak for the majority. I don't even know what the majority think. But you have had assurances from more than one person on this thread that talking about R1b as Indo-European does not mean cutting R1a1a out of the story.

This just happens to be an R1b forum and so people talk a lot about R1b here. OK?

I don't mind if people want to toss ideas out. I mind that very when people throw around R1b centric theories they don't get called R1b partisans who haunt every forum and don't belong on this one.  Yet someone says R1a is PIE when that is supported by the Kurgan theory they get labeled as having no credibility.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 25, 2012, 01:26:49 PM
 So, I think although we may not all have identical models, Jean, Dienekes, myself and others are kind of pulling towards a similar conclusion that R1b was north-eastern relative to the centre of Mesopotamia.   

Or in fem-speak, you men are now pulling towards my opinion, as put on the first version of my speculative R1b map a couple of years ago and explained in my accompanying text.  :)

Quote
Looking back in time to the origins of R1 we find a link between the Volga-Ural region and the southern Caspian basin. The Yangelskaya Culture which appears in the former area around 9000 BC is virtually identical with finds in the latter area. Contacts between the two continued even into the Neolithic. Here we have a clue that Mesolithic people carrying R1 may have moved between summer hunting on the steppe and winter quarters in the more sheltered forest fringing the southern Caspian - known as the Hyrcanian refuge. Transport by boat was within their power. Indeed images of boats, which from their stratigraphic location must be over 10,000 years old, appear among the famed petroglyphs of Gobustan beside the Caspian in South-East Azerbaijan. We can deduce that R1a arose among those of their descendants who settled on the steppe, while R1b appeared among those descendants who favoured the southern homeland, and became involved in agriculture earlier. So far this can only be speculative, in the absence of ancient DNA.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 25, 2012, 01:35:56 PM
Yet someone says R1a is PIE when that is supported by the Kurgan theory they get labeled as having no credibility.

What you in fact said was far more provocative, as I think you probably now realise, and to make matters worse you cited as your source a person whose views you keep asking me to debunk on the General Forum here. There is in fact archaeological/ancient DNA evidence tracing R1a1a from Andronovo through a series of successor cultures to Scythians, known to be East Iranian speakers. There is no problem with the credibility of the Keyser 2009 paper.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 25, 2012, 01:36:34 PM
... Yes. It is a hunter gatherer language. It didn't come from Anatolian farmers. I disagree with their being mass scale admixture and the PIE core consisting of R1b and R1a.

Are my brother and I a population with admixture? - the result of interbreeding between two or more previously isolated populations within a species.  Even if I had a new SNP my brother didn't have and he had one I didn't, we are still not admixture. We have the same ancestry.

R1b and R1a have a common R1 ancestor.  At some point, their lineages were one and the same.

If that was true there should have been R1b among Tocharians, Scythians, Andronovo people, central asians. but there isn't. The steepe remained close to 100% R1a imo.

Are you making the case that the Yamna horizon was a monolithic culture? Apparently so if you rely on the assumption that all expansions of Yamna groups had the same mix, which is what you are doing when you require R1b to be in every IE population.  Likewise, I don't see much R1a in the Celtics or Italics, yet they are IE.  It doesn't matter anyway, the Yamna were not a singular, monolithic group.  They were various groups of mobile people shifting across the very large Central Eurasian plain.


Wasn't the Andronovo horizon formed by Yamna people? Not a single R1b or any other west eurasian ydna besides R1a. If there was so much admixture why haven't scythians showed anything indicating that?

SOME Yamnaya people formed Andronovo i.e a subset.  When a subset moves it often is just an atypical fraction and you get a founder effect.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 25, 2012, 01:54:13 PM
Changing the subject somewhat, I believe it was on this thread that Alan expressed some interest in Beaker skulls. I came across an interesting comment on Dienekes' blog by a person with the screen name Derek. Here it is.

Quote from: Derek
I've found all these references to the Beaker Folk's distinct skull type extremely interesting and am trying to educate myself on the subject. A lot of the relevant academic papers seem to cite a 1953 book by Kurt Gerhardt (Die Glockenbecherleute in Mittel-und Westdeutschland) in which the author made a detailed study of 130 BB skulls. I haven't been able to find the book, but found an old review of it on JSTOR:

"The Bell-Beaker pottery and a type of skull called by Gerhardt Plano-Occipital Steilkopf appear together in late Neolithic times in Central Europe; and Gerhardt gives us a study of 130 skulls, with sketches of 73 of them, where possible three sketches of each being shown. The Plano-Occipital Steilkopf with the back of the head almost a vertical plane is the chief, the most numerous and the most marked type among the skulls showing strong brows and jaws and other features with a considerable range of variation. ........

Gerhardt emphasizes the anatomical relation of the chief type of Beaker Men to an Anatolian-Armenian breed in a proportion of the men in which one finds that steep rise of the hinder plane of the skull, but admits that there is as yet too little evidence from Armenia of the Beaker period. His view is that the type spread west in the Mediterranean."

Here's the link if you have access to JSTOR:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/2795139


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/05/bell-beakers-from-germany-y-haplogroup.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/05/bell-beakers-from-germany-y-haplogroup.html)

Steilkopf literally means "steep head".

The possible connection to Anatolia/Armenia is interesting, to say the least.


The term he uses meaning flat back of the head is a far better description than broad or round headed.  The beskrt heads were not really round or broad as such but simply had marked rear flattening.  You could say they were essentially dolichomorphic but had flattening of the rear of the head.  This is  something that I think is a very very poor racial indicator given that it is often a result of cradling traditions and practices.  In the short term it does mean something as new traditions probably mean gene flow but over a long span of time I think it is meaningless as skulls are so plastic and susceptable to change.  However more complex study of the skulls and teeth probably do tell us something.  i just think the long vs broad head focus based on head width vs back to front length ratio is an old obsession from old books with some dangerous ideas.  It aguable the very worst dimesnion to base a racial typology because it is so plastic. Apparently due to reommendations to stop infant cot death syndrome that involve a baby sleeping on its back there is a modern wave of flattening of the Occiput or brachycephaly in western societies and the shape of the western head is changing as a result.  There are medical articles on the web about this.   Anyway that is why non-metrical studies of the skull are so much better than the simple cranial index idea.  The use of cranial index to imply population history was rightly highly questioned and generally rejected for about 50 years.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 25, 2012, 02:29:53 PM
So, I think although we may not all have identical models, Jean, Dienekes, myself and others are kind of pulling towards a similar conclusion that R1b was north-eastern relative to the centre of Mesopotamia.  

Or in fem-speak, you men are now pulling towards my opinion, as put on the first version of my speculative R1b map a couple of years ago and explained in my accompanying text.  :)

Quote
Looking back in time to the origins of R1 we find a link between the Volga-Ural region and the southern Caspian basin. The Yangelskaya Culture which appears in the former area around 9000 BC is virtually identical with finds in the latter area. Contacts between the two continued even into the Neolithic. Here we have a clue that Mesolithic people carrying R1 may have moved between summer hunting on the steppe and winter quarters in the more sheltered forest fringing the southern Caspian - known as the Hyrcanian refuge. Transport by boat was within their power. Indeed images of boats, which from their stratigraphic location must be over 10,000 years old, appear among the famed petroglyphs of Gobustan beside the Caspian in South-East Azerbaijan. We can deduce that R1a arose among those of their descendants who settled on the steppe, while R1b appeared among those descendants who favoured the southern homeland, and became involved in agriculture earlier. So far this can only be speculative, in the absence of ancient DNA.

now now Jean, humility, its not a competition to be right or quickest :0).  I just want to know the truth.  If I took a stance that I will never change my opinion or admit being wrong as new data became available I would end up like one of those people who still believe in the ice agre refugia or would have never posted anything ever.  The evidence of ancient DNA seems to have dimished very much the chance R1b was among the first farmers which would still have been considered incredinly surprising even 2 or 3 years back.  so I would be stupid to get trapped in that worst of the deadly sins,pride, and argue against evidence.  

There is still a giant gap between the beaker ancient DNA find of M269 and all the rest of its history.  The pre-beaker aspect of R1b (which is an enormous period of time) still is in almost total darkness other than inference from modern groups and archaeology archaeological inference which has a horrendous record in getting these things right.  If someone had said that beaker populations virtually replaced the male lineages of western Europe of today even 4 or 5 years ago (if that) they would probably have been sectioned!  In fact I would say the 90-odd% of archaeologists who dont read cutting edge DNA evidence are still unaware of that DNA evidence and would still be amazed.   I think your book will be great for informing archeologists of all of this stuff because most of them, even ones publishing, are years behind.  A lot of the people I am friends with are archaeologists and most even now wouldnt even have heard of R1b never mind all the detai.  So your book will be a must-have Xmas pressie.  So, any chance of a reduced price batch  :0)


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: JeanL on May 25, 2012, 02:35:31 PM
I just have one question:

Where does Paleo-Sardinian speaking Pre-Roman Sardinians fall, how about NonIndoEuropean Pre-Roman Iberians, or Aquitanians? Certainly it is easier to disregard the Basques in their current day distribution, but in Pre-Roman times the nonIndoEuropean languages were more widespread and more numerous than today, while many of those places with putative nonIndoEuropean languages do show a significant share of R1b-M269 in their present day population.

Also Sardinians are one of the few people that show long term genetic continuity, so are we to assume that they got their R1b-M269 from Romans, that would be quite unlikely. Phoenicians, even less likely, so how did they get their R1b-M269, yet remained largely pre-IndoEuropean before Roman conquest. How about the Iberians? There is both Bell Beaker and Megalithic presence in Sardinia, but they spoke a pre-IndoEuropean language, so don't really know what to make of it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleosardinian_language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleosardinian_language)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_language)



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 25, 2012, 02:39:15 PM
@ Alan  :) You are very, very right in all respects, though by the time the print version comes out it may not seem as radical as all that.  


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 25, 2012, 02:50:12 PM
Where does Paleo-Sardinian speaking Pre-Roman Sardinians fall, how about NonIndoEuropean Pre-Roman Iberians, or Aquitanians?

Basque appears to be a language of the age of metal. There are clues that link it to the Balkans somewhere near PIE in origin, which could explain the R1b in modern-day Basques on both sides of the Franco-Spanish border.  That doesn't mean that there is no older European DNA in the Basques. They look like the same kind of mixture as other European populations. 

I suspect that Paleo-Sardinian could be a Neolithic language. There was a book out recently claiming it to be related to Basque and Iberian. I was rather taken with that idea until I read into it a bit. There have been so many attempts to link other languages with Basque. It now looks like another dubious effort, along with the attempts to link Iberian and Basque. Genetically the Sardinians look like there was a Neolithic founder effect that wasn't later drowned out by Copper/Bronze Age migrations.  

It is possible that Iberian was also Neolithic, but given the fact that the area that was Iberian-speaking has as much R1b as the Celtic and Basque regions, I suspect that it too was a Copper Age  arrival.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: JeanL on May 25, 2012, 03:04:31 PM

Basque appears to be a language of the age of metal. There are clues that link it to the Balkans somewhere near PIE in origin, which could explain the R1b in modern-day Basques on both sides of the Franco-Spanish border.  That doesn't mean that there is no older European DNA in the Basques. They look like the same kind of mixture as other European populations.

Not autosomally, Basques do not share much with the Balkanic populations which tend to be high on the "West Asian" component, which is greatly lacking in Basques. I don't think Basque is a metal age language, if so, why would they use stone knives?
 

It is possible that Iberian was also Neolithic, but given the fact that the area that was Iberian-speaking has as much R1b as the Celtic and Basque regions, I suspect that it too was a Copper Age  arrival.

Correction: Areas that were Iberian-speaking have far greater frequency of R1b-M269 than Celtic regions.

i.e. http://rokus01.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/balaresque_2010_r1b-frequency.jpg (http://rokus01.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/balaresque_2010_r1b-frequency.jpg)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Languages_of_pre-Roman_Iberia.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Languages_of_pre-Roman_Iberia.jpg)

For example from Balaresque et al.2010 we see that the percentage of R1b-M269 in Iberia is as follows:

Andalucia East SP1 in Map (n=95) R1b-M269 72%

Andalucia West SP2 in Map (n=72) R1b-M269 55%

Catalonia SP4 in Map (n=80) R1b-M269 81.3%

Castilla La Mancha SP5 in Map (n=63) R1b-M269 72%

Galicia SP6 in Map (n=88) R1b-M269 58%

Portugal South PO in Map (n=78) R1b-M269 46.2%


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 25, 2012, 03:05:37 PM
... Yes. It is a hunter gatherer language. It didn't come from Anatolian farmers. I disagree with their being mass scale admixture and the PIE core consisting of R1b and R1a.

Are my brother and I a population with admixture? - the result of interbreeding between two or more previously isolated populations within a species.  Even if I had a new SNP my brother didn't have and he had one I didn't, we are still not admixture. We have the same ancestry.

R1b and R1a have a common R1 ancestor.  At some point, their lineages were one and the same.

If that was true there should have been R1b among Tocharians, Scythians, Andronovo people, central asians. but there isn't. The steepe remained close to 100% R1a imo.

Are you making the case that the Yamna horizon was a monolithic culture? Apparently so if you rely on the assumption that all expansions of Yamna groups had the same mix, which is what you are doing when you require R1b to be in every IE population.  Likewise, I don't see much R1a in the Celtics or Italics, yet they are IE.  It doesn't matter anyway, the Yamna were not a singular, monolithic group.  They were various groups of mobile people shifting across the very large Central Eurasian plain.


Wasn't the Andronovo horizon formed by Yamna people? Not a single R1b or any other west eurasian ydna besides R1a. If there was so much admixture why haven't scythians showed anything indicating that?

SOME Yamnaya people formed Andronovo i.e a subset.  When a subset moves it often is just an atypical fraction and you get a founder effect.

Proof of founder effect? This is just an assumption. Founder effect leads to elevated levels of certain lineages but doesn't usually eliminate the others. Yet Andronovo is pretty much fully R1a with some assimilated Asian lineages.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 25, 2012, 03:14:47 PM
 So, I think although we may not all have identical models, Jean, Dienekes, myself and others are kind of pulling towards a similar conclusion that R1b was north-eastern relative to the centre of Mesopotamia.   

Or in fem-speak, you men are now pulling towards my opinion, as put on the first version of my speculative R1b map a couple of years ago and explained in my accompanying text.  :)

Quote
Looking back in time to the origins of R1 we find a link between the Volga-Ural region and the southern Caspian basin. The Yangelskaya Culture which appears in the former area around 9000 BC is virtually identical with finds in the latter area. Contacts between the two continued even into the Neolithic. Here we have a clue that Mesolithic people carrying R1 may have moved between summer hunting on the steppe and winter quarters in the more sheltered forest fringing the southern Caspian - known as the Hyrcanian refuge. Transport by boat was within their power. Indeed images of boats, which from their stratigraphic location must be over 10,000 years old, appear among the famed petroglyphs of Gobustan beside the Caspian in South-East Azerbaijan. We can deduce that R1a arose among those of their descendants who settled on the steppe, while R1b appeared among those descendants who favoured the southern homeland, and became involved in agriculture earlier. So far this can only be speculative, in the absence of ancient DNA.

Link to the map?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyrcania

So ancient migrations between Iran/Turkmenistan and Russia ia the Caspian Sea? So R1 is Mesolithic and from the Volga-Urals. The R1 that remained in that region is  where R1 formed? While the R1 that moved to Iran became R1a? I agree with the locations of of R1a and R1. But I thought ydna I was the Mesolithic marker.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 25, 2012, 03:29:37 PM
I don't think Basque is a metal age language, if so, why would they use stone knives?


Euskara includes indigenous Basque words relating to agriculture, wheeled vehicles and metallurgy, such as shepherd (artzain), millet (artatxiki - formerly arto), wine (ardo), cart (gurdi), wheel (gurpil from *gurdi-bil, meaning cart-round), smith ([h]arotz), iron (burdina), lead (berun), gold (urre), and silver (zillar or urre-zuri - literally white gold).  If Euskara were originally the language of hunter-gatherers of South-West Europe, one would expect it to have borrowed words relating to agriculture and metallurgy. A common pattern, where a people adopt a new technology from those speaking another language, is for the foreign words for that technology to be borrowed at the same time. Oddly the most common Basque words for tin (eztainu), copper (kobre) and bronze (brontze) are all borrowed from Romance. However Euskara originally had its own words for these metals. The fact that one word for silver was derived from the word for gold suggests a region where gold was discovered first. That points to the eastern Balkans, and cultures such as Cucuteni-Tripolye.
 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 25, 2012, 03:30:43 PM
Link to the map?

My apologies. My website is down currently, as you found out earlier today.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 25, 2012, 03:32:57 PM
Link to the map?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyrcania

So ancient migrations between Iran/Turkmenistan and Russia ia the Caspian Sea? So R1 is Mesolithic and from the Volga-Urals. The R1 that remained in that region is  where R1 formed? While the R1 that moved to Iran became R1a? I agree with the locations of of R1a and R1. But I thought ydna I was the Mesolithic marker.

Hopefully you are still not assuming all things are pure.  You said, "I thought ydna I was the Mesolithic marker."  There is no one Mesolithic marker. Karafet et al, 2008, have the TMRCA for R1 as 18.5k ybp. Definitely R1 lineages were around during the Mesolithic period. I would guess descendants R1a and R1b would have been around too, but I don't think we have that precise of dating.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 25, 2012, 03:39:12 PM
But I thought ydna I was the Mesolithic marker.

There doesn't have to be just one marker per period. :)

We have no ancient DNA from the Mesolithic. Y-DNA I is certainly old enough. It also appears European. However that does not mean that the men of Mesolithic Europe only carried haplogroup I. Nor does it mean that the haplogroup I we find today invariably got to its present position in the Mesolithic. R1a seems to have been on the SE edge of Europe in the Mesolithic, while haplogroup I seems to have been in the Carpathian Basin. The older Haplogroup F* has appeared in European Neolithic DNA and probably arrived in Europe much earlier.  


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 25, 2012, 03:42:53 PM
But I thought ydna I was the Mesolithic marker.

There doesn't have to be just one marker per period. :)

We have no ancient DNA from the Mesolithic. Y-DNA I is certainly old enough. It also appears European. However that does not mean that the men of Mesolithic Europe only carried haplogroup I. Nor does it mean that the haplogroup I we find today invariably got to its present position in the Mesolithic. R1a seems to have been on the SE edge of Europe in the Mesolithic, while haplogroup I seems to have been in the Carpathian Basin. The older Haplogroup F* has appeared in European Neolithic DNA and probably arrived in Europe much earlier.  

True. I thought there is still a chance of Ydna I being Anatolian and at east I and I2 being West Asian?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 25, 2012, 04:09:25 PM
@ intrestedinhistory

I commend your interest in so many topics, but we really are wandering from the topic of this thread, which is R1b in Bell Beaker.

There is an I and Subclades forum.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 25, 2012, 05:14:11 PM
@ intrestedinhistory

I commend your interest in so many topics, but we really are wandering from the topic of this thread, which is R1b in Bell Beaker.

There is an I and Subclades forum.

Ok. My apologies.  Back on to the topic of R1b where do you define that refuge? Azerbaijan or Iran. The diversity of North Iranian R1b seems high. And when do you think that R1b occurred? Since South Asia lacks R1b this must have occurred after the South Asian Neolithic with a movement from the Caspian to the west Via Anatolia to Europe. Alternatively R1b could have arrived in Bell Beaker from Anatolia where it originated. This model would not have the question of no R1b in South Asia because it would assume Iran and Europe received R1b waves after the Neolithic from Anatolia.

Also saying R1 is from the Volga-Urals would imply  that the first R1 man was Northern European automatically right? What about R and R2?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Arch Y. on May 25, 2012, 05:52:39 PM


Ok. My apologies.  Back on to the topic of R1b where do you define that refuge? Azerbaijan or Iran. The diversity of North Iranian R1b seems high. And when do you think that R1b occurred? Since South Asia lacks R1b this must have occurred after the South Asian Neolithic with a movement from the Caspian to the west Via Anatolia to Europe. Alternatively R1b could have arrived in Bell Beaker from Anatolia where it originated. This model would not have the question of no R1b in South Asia because it would assume Iran and Europe received R1b waves after the Neolithic from Anatolia.

Also saying R1 is from the Volga-Urals would imply  that the first R1 man was Northern European automatically right? What about R and R2?
[/quote]

I guess that's a good point about the first R1 being European (maybe not North European, more like Eurasian) if he is from the Volga R. However, I think that the Volga R. connection would be leaning towards the first R1a man. In regards to R1b, it's anybody's guess but I have my favorite pet theory of origins for R1b is in the Syunik region of Armenia. It's close to enough to Iran, close enough to the Caspian Sea, close enough to the Anatolian Peninsula where R1b diversity appears to be the highest. Origins of R1b is in Southwest Asia.

Arch



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 25, 2012, 06:15:07 PM
Jean M - I would appreciate your opinion on my suggestion that, in an R1a=steppes hunters and R1b=some sort of middle Neolithic 2nd wave farming input sort of model, the separation time between the two R1 groups (perhaps in the Younger Dyas) to their re-contacting in the Neolithic was perhaps only 4000 years which is not the sort of time depth that the two groups should have been from radically different language family groups.  

As I said if you consider that the earliest continental Celtic inscriptions to a modern Gaelic speaker is nearly 3000 years or that Irish and Welsh maybe had their common route about 3000 years ago or Italic and Celtic had a common route maybe 5000 years ago then 4000 years separation between the R1 groups just does not seem the sort of time depth that should lead us to envisaging them in totally different family groups.  To give another example the Ogham stones in Ireland in primitive Irish of c. 500AD were perhaps 3000 years separated in time from Celto-Italic.  Or for yet another Celtic example, Gaelic is still recognisably Celtic and has not morphed into a separate group perhaps 4000 years after Celtic evolved.  

So, I suspect that the indigenous R1b language may well have still been very much distantly related dialects or branches of the same language family as the indigenous R1a group in the early Neolithic shortly before they came back into contact.   IF R1b spoke a radically different language from a different language family from R1a in the early Neolithic then it must have been one adopted from other non-R1 elements in the area.

I am kind of surprised this has not been discussed before.  The only way I can envisage huge language group separation between R1a and R1b is if they were separated in very deep time, far deeper than the younger dryas.  I think that is unlikely and so I am suggesting they still both spoke dialects of the R1 language.

    


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Humanist on May 25, 2012, 06:19:47 PM
[W]hile R1b appeared among those descendants who favoured the southern homeland, and became involved in agriculture earlier. So far this can only be speculative, in the absence of ancient DNA.

If Euskara were originally the language of hunter-gatherers of South-West Europe, one would expect it to have borrowed words relating to agriculture and metallurgy. A common pattern, where a people adopt a new technology from those speaking another language, is for the foreign words for that technology to be borrowed at the same time.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of West Asian skeletons gathering dust.  :)  Let us hope for some successful aDNA extraction attempts in the near future.  Including remains from Mesopotamia and the Levant.

Cambridge Prof. Geoffrey Khan. The Neo-Aramaic Dialect of Barwar.  2008

Quote
As already shown by Krotkoff (1985: 124–126), a number of lexical items in the NENA [Northeastern Neo-Aramaic] dialects, especially those relating to agriculture, can be traced back beyond Classical Aramaic to Akkadian or even Sumerian.

Krotkoff, Georg, 1985, ‘Studies in Neo-Aramaic Lexicology’, in A. Kort and S. Morschauser, Biblical and Related Studies Presented to Samuel Iwry, Winona Lake, pp.123-134.

Quote
The extraordinary tenacity of agricultural terminology is illustrated by the two terms mara 'spade, hoe' and rusta 'shovel, spade.' The former has a well documented history: Sumerian mar, Akkadian marru...

Some features belong to immediately preceding periods of the history of the language, while others are of great antiquity. This is very obvious in the vocabulary, but applies also to structural elements. As a case in point, the infinite pattern of Akkadian (palaxu) has experienced a renaissance in NA (plaxa), bypassing the intermediate stages of Aramaic.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 25, 2012, 06:45:47 PM
@ intrestedinhistory

I commend your interest in so many topics, but we really are wandering from the topic of this thread, which is R1b in Bell Beaker.

There is an I and Subclades forum.

Ok. My apologies.  Back on to the topic of R1b where do you define that refuge? Azerbaijan or Iran. The diversity of North Iranian R1b seems high. And when do you think that R1b occurred? Since South Asia lacks R1b this must have occurred after the South Asian Neolithic with a movement from the Caspian to the west Via Anatolia to Europe. Alternatively R1b could have arrived in Bell Beaker from Anatolia where it originated. This model would not have the question of no R1b in South Asia because it would assume Iran and Europe received R1b waves after the Neolithic from Anatolia.

Also saying R1 is from the Volga-Urals would imply  that the first R1 man was Northern European automatically right? What about R and R2?

Well the evidence to date does not make it likely R1b was in position in the areas where the first farmers left from.  R1b is absent in all the early Neolithic yDNA samples in Europe and although the sample is still small its looking unlikely it was around.  Even if it was forms of R1b old enough to be Early Neolithic in Europe are scarse to absent.  Finally, only Romania seems to have highish variance of L23* in the Neolithic farming zone of Europe and even that seems uncertain and is not as old as the early Neolithic.  I understand from Mike that other than the Romanian blob L23* is much younger in what was farming Europe than it to the east and south-east.  The only reason I can see for R1b being absent in Europe is that they were not on the pathways into Europe in the earliest periods and/or they were, like R1a, late hunter-gatherers somewhere.  It could be either or both. Again the L23* variance map based on Myres shows a zone of higher variance running from Mesopotamia and adjacent through eastern Turkey and east of the Black Sea into the Crimea sort of area and around the Black Sea into Romania.  L23* has a low variance around the Aegean in both Anatolia, the Levant etc.  That all ties into it being peripheral to farming and/or located on the north and eastern edges of the early farming world.  I would tend to agree with Jean that the R1b refugia (for want of a better word) was probably not a huge distance from the R1a one albeit slightly to the south.  I would tend to put R1b as a third category between the main forces of Neolithication to the south and south-west who spread into Europe and the R1a peoples to the north in the steppes.  I think it is quite wrong and against all the varous types of new DNA evidence to throw R1b in with G, J and E.  If anything they would have been geographically and linguistically, cousins if you like.

One other thing we should never forget is a ridiculous amount of the y DNA pattern is down to a couple of guys living in the copper age.  That only really tells us who two guys were at that period.  It does not tell us if those lucky guys were typical of the population or much about the population at all prior to their lives.  Only ancient DNA can tell us that. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 25, 2012, 07:43:13 PM
Jean M - I would appreciate your opinion on my suggestion that, in an R1a=steppes hunters and R1b=some sort of middle Neolithic 2nd wave farming input sort of model, the separation time between the two R1 groups .. to their re-contacting in the Neolithic was perhaps only 4000 years which is not the sort of time depth that the two groups should have been from radically different language family groups.  

I saw that you mentioned that. The fly in the ointment is that R1b-V88 is connected with the Afro-Asiatic family, most particularly (in Africa) with Chadic. It's a puzzle. At one point I commented in my text to the effect that R1a and R1b were no longer speaking the same language, which they should have been doing originally, but then decided not to delve deeper into murky waters. It would be building speculation upon speculation.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 25, 2012, 07:58:07 PM
Changing the subject somewhat, I believe it was on this thread that Alan expressed some interest in Beaker skulls. I came across an interesting comment on Dienekes' blog by a person with the screen name Derek. Here it is.

Quote from: Derek
I've found all these references to the Beaker Folk's distinct skull type extremely interesting and am trying to educate myself on the subject. A lot of the relevant academic papers seem to cite a 1953 book by Kurt Gerhardt (Die Glockenbecherleute in Mittel-und Westdeutschland) in which the author made a detailed study of 130 BB skulls. I haven't been able to find the book, but found an old review of it on JSTOR:

"The Bell-Beaker pottery and a type of skull called by Gerhardt Plano-Occipital Steilkopf appear together in late Neolithic times in Central Europe; and Gerhardt gives us a study of 130 skulls, with sketches of 73 of them, where possible three sketches of each being shown. The Plano-Occipital Steilkopf with the back of the head almost a vertical plane is the chief, the most numerous and the most marked type among the skulls showing strong brows and jaws and other features with a considerable range of variation. ........

Gerhardt emphasizes the anatomical relation of the chief type of Beaker Men to an Anatolian-Armenian breed in a proportion of the men in which one finds that steep rise of the hinder plane of the skull, but admits that there is as yet too little evidence from Armenia of the Beaker period. His view is that the type spread west in the Mediterranean."

Here's the link if you have access to JSTOR:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/2795139


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/05/bell-beakers-from-germany-y-haplogroup.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/05/bell-beakers-from-germany-y-haplogroup.html)

Steilkopf literally means "steep head".

The possible connection to Anatolia/Armenia is interesting, to say the least.


The term he uses meaning flat back of the head is a far better description than broad or round headed.  The beskrt heads were not really round or broad as such but simply had marked rear flattening.  You could say they were essentially dolichomorphic but had flattening of the rear of the head.  This is  something that I think is a very very poor racial indicator given that it is often a result of cradling traditions and practices.  In the short term it does mean something as new traditions probably mean gene flow but over a long span of time I think it is meaningless as skulls are so plastic and susceptable to change.  However more complex study of the skulls and teeth probably do tell us something.  i just think the long vs broad head focus based on head width vs back to front length ratio is an old obsession from old books with some dangerous ideas.  It aguable the very worst dimesnion to base a racial typology because it is so plastic. Apparently due to reommendations to stop infant cot death syndrome that involve a baby sleeping on its back there is a modern wave of flattening of the Occiput or brachycephaly in western societies and the shape of the western head is changing as a result.  There are medical articles on the web about this.   Anyway that is why non-metrical studies of the skull are so much better than the simple cranial index idea.  The use of cranial index to imply population history was rightly highly questioned and generally rejected for about 50 years.

While I know that autosomal dna is a constantly changing crap shoot, and thus so is skull form, I think perhaps you are assuming too much if you think you have found the answer in deformation occurring as a result of cradling, etc. You might be wrong.

Have you run across any anthropologists who have interpreted Beaker brachycephaly as the result of nurture rather than nature? I haven't.

I know the old timers put far too much stock in skull shape, but it may not be wise to totally disregard it either.

The fact that Gerhardt found some Anatolian/Armenian skulls that fit the Beaker Steilkopf pattern might be coincidental, but it might be more than that, too.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 25, 2012, 08:00:12 PM
Jean M - I would appreciate your opinion on my suggestion that, in an R1a=steppes hunters and R1b=some sort of middle Neolithic 2nd wave farming input sort of model, the separation time between the two R1 groups .. to their re-contacting in the Neolithic was perhaps only 4000 years which is not the sort of time depth that the two groups should have been from radically different language family groups.  

I saw that you mentioned that. The fly in the ointment is that R1b-V88 is connected with the Afro-Asiatic family, most particularly (in Africa) with Chadic. It's a puzzle. At one point I commented in my text to the effect that R1a and R1b were no longer speaking the same language, which they should have been doing originally, but then decided not to delve deeper into murky waters. It would be building speculation upon speculation.

My guess is (that's all it is) that R1b and/or its R1 lineage was on the high contact/exchange side of the R1 family territories. The R1b lineages were probably hunter-gatherers that apparently had early contact with the farmers and "civilization". As nomads, they just tried to find opportunities while avoiding termination by the more advanced cultures.

I think they splintered and transformed (integrated where beneficial) which is why you have R1b spread through the Near East and into N. Africa fairly early.  Apparently, their opportunistic nature and fast feet kept them out of the path of the early farmers into Europe. By the time of the Bell Beaker folks, there were already probably a variety of R1b lineages in various cultures.

It is R1b-L11 or at least the MRCA for U106 and P312 that came in more recently and apparently had the aggressive or at least fruitful expansion.

What is the aging of R1b-L11 versus R1b-V88?  Were the TMRCA's contemporaries?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: JeanL on May 25, 2012, 08:13:21 PM

Euskara includes indigenous Basque words relating to agriculture, wheeled vehicles and metallurgy, such as shepherd (artzain), millet (artatxiki - formerly arto), wine (ardo), cart (gurdi), wheel (gurpil from *gurdi-bil, meaning cart-round), smith ([h]arotz), iron (burdina), lead (berun), gold (urre), and silver (zillar or urre-zuri - literally white gold).  If Euskara were originally the language of hunter-gatherers of South-West Europe, one would expect it to have borrowed words relating to agriculture and metallurgy. A common pattern, where a people adopt a new technology from those speaking another language, is for the foreign words for that technology to be borrowed at the same time. Oddly the most common Basque words for tin (eztainu), copper (kobre) and bronze (brontze) are all borrowed from Romance. However Euskara originally had its own words for these metals. The fact that one word for silver was derived from the word for gold suggests a region where gold was discovered first. That points to the eastern Balkans, and cultures such as Cucuteni-Tripolye.
 

Well that not really a strong argument, we don’t know if they really did borrow those words from an extinct pre-Indoeuropean language. Plus, one could equally argue that Basque language is pre-Bronze age based on the fact that the Basque words for knife and axe all have the prefix "aitz” meaning stone.  

Moreover there is this:

Quote from:  Peñalver&Santamarta
Metalworking first emerged during the Palaeolithic, when copper pieces were manufactured which included flat axes, daggers, punches and ornaments, On rare occasions the latter were made of gold. During the Bronze Age, bronze became the basic metal used to make a wide variety of pieces and it was to hold its own until the emergence of iron-working, well into the first millennium BCE.

Source: “Iron Age settlements of Guipuzcoa”
Authors: Xabier Peñalver Iribarren / Sonia San Jose Santamarta
Year of publication: 2003
ISBN: 84-7907-422-1

So the question that stands is:

If gold was already being used in ritual burials during pre-Neolithic times, why would then Basques not have a word for it?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 25, 2012, 08:15:39 PM
Back to Beaker brachycephaly.

Dienekes, in his initial blog post announcing the Lee, et al, Kromsdorf discoveries, quotes Carleton Coon with regard to Beaker physiognomy:

Quote from: Carleton Coon
The Dinaric type, with which the Rhenish Bell beakers are associated, is one which entered the western Mediterranean by sea from the east, and eventually moved, by some route yet to be determined in an accurate manner, to the north, and eventually to central Europe.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/05/bell-beakers-from-germany-y-haplogroup.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/05/bell-beakers-from-germany-y-haplogroup.html)

I am not trying to make too much of that; but I do think it is interesting, given Gerhardt's work with Beaker skulls from central and western Germany.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 25, 2012, 08:32:04 PM


Ok. My apologies.  Back on to the topic of R1b where do you define that refuge? Azerbaijan or Iran. The diversity of North Iranian R1b seems high. And when do you think that R1b occurred? Since South Asia lacks R1b this must have occurred after the South Asian Neolithic with a movement from the Caspian to the west Via Anatolia to Europe. Alternatively R1b could have arrived in Bell Beaker from Anatolia where it originated. This model would not have the question of no R1b in South Asia because it would assume Iran and Europe received R1b waves after the Neolithic from Anatolia.

Also saying R1 is from the Volga-Urals would imply  that the first R1 man was Northern European automatically right? What about R and R2?

I guess that's a good point about the first R1 being European (maybe not North European, more like Eurasian) if he is from the Volga R. However, I think that the Volga R. connection would be leaning towards the first R1a man. In regards to R1b, it's anybody's guess but I have my favorite pet theory of origins for R1b is in the Syunik region of Armenia. It's close to enough to Iran, close enough to the Caspian Sea, close enough to the Anatolian Peninsula where R1b diversity appears to be the highest. Origins of R1b is in Southwest Asia.

Arch


[/quote]

Just because he was from the Volga doesn't mean he was European. I was asking if autosomal components such as Northern European, West Asian even existed by then or was he just some  West Eurasian?

Why specifically that region? When Anatolia and Iran are better fits? I personally think narrowing down ydnas to such a small region is ridiculous. How do you know?

I am curious on what Jean M defines the Hyrcanian refuge R1b comes from as.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 25, 2012, 09:03:59 PM
Link to the map?

My apologies. My website is down currently, as you found out earlier today.

It is back up.

http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/images/SpecR1bsm.jpg

I can't tell where exactly the homeland of R1 is. Seems like Western Kazakhstan from that map?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 26, 2012, 04:15:20 AM
It is back up.

http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/images/SpecR1bsm.jpg

I can't tell where exactly the homeland of R1 is. Seems like Western Kazakhstan from that map?

The map is not intended to show precise positions within modern political boundaries where mutations occurred. We can't know that. All I am saying is that one possibility (not yet supported by ancient DNA) is that R1 men may be found in the Yangelskaya Culture which penetrated the  Southern Ural region from the southern Caspian basin about 9000 BC, which was followed by continued contact between those regions, which may reflect seasonal movement. I could be completely wrong! :)

[Added after perusal of several maps] The Yangelskaya sites mainly seem to fall on the Russian side of the border with  Kazakhstan. My purple arrow should point a bit further north. But of course these boundaries which mean so much to us meant nothing at all to Mesolithic hunters roaming at will.  They would hunt the herds on the steppe and then return to camps along the Ural River or other local watercourses, as they needed a source of water. It is those camp sites that archaeologists are most likely to spot from artifacts left there. Most of the known sites are along the River Ural.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 26, 2012, 04:50:28 AM
we don’t know if they really did borrow those words from an extinct pre-Indoeuropean language.

I am not saying that the Basque language borrowed words from an IE language. I am saying that they did not. They had their own words with clear Basque roots for things to do with agriculture and metallurgy. It is the fact that they did not borrow them that indicates that the language is of the age of metal.

In fact some IE languages of the Germanic, Baltic and Slavic branches  borrowed one of the Basque words for silver - zilar. That is one of the clues that the ancestor of Basque was spoken close to the PIE homeland.  The other is the -ko suffix in both Basque and PIE.

Quote
Plus, one could equally argue that Basque language is pre-Bronze age based on the fact that the Basque words for knife and axe all have the prefix "aitz” meaning stone.  

No - that just shows that once upon a time their ancestors lived in the Stone Age, which is true of us all. It does not show the final stage of the culture before vocabulary began to be extensively borrowed.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 26, 2012, 08:49:27 AM
It is back up.

http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/images/SpecR1bsm.jpg

I can't tell where exactly the homeland of R1 is. Seems like Western Kazakhstan from that map?

The map is not intended to show precise positions within modern political boundaries where mutations occurred. We can't know that. All I am saying is that one possibility (not yet supported by ancient DNA) is that R1 men may be found in the Yangelskaya Culture which penetrated the  Southern Ural region from the southern Caspian basin about 9000 BC, which was followed by continued contact between those regions, which may reflect seasonal movement. I could be completely wrong! :)

[Added after perusal of several maps] The Yangelskaya sites mainly seem to fall on the Russian side of the border with  Kazakhstan. My purple arrow should point a bit further north. But of course these boundaries which mean so much to us meant nothing at all to Mesolithic hunters roaming at will.  They would hunt the herds on the steppe and then return to camps along the Ural River or other local watercourses, as they needed a source of water. It is those camp sites that archaeologists are most likely to spot from artifacts left there. Most of the known sites are along the River Ural.

So the movement was from the Southern Caspian Basin (where it originated?) into the areas among the Ural? Does this match North Iranian/Azerbaijani R1b diversity?

That sounds pretty groundbreaking if true.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 26, 2012, 09:07:18 AM
We shall have to wait and see. Bear in mind that these would be a handful of hunters - not a large population - and they are long gone. The people of 9000 BC are not living among modern populations in the same spot.  Their descendants are scattered. The area where I suggest these hunters hunted has been overrun many, many times. New people entered the Caucasus from the Near East in the Neolithic. The steppe has been criss-crossed by nomads. In short I'm not looking for evidence in modern DNA.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: JeanL on May 26, 2012, 12:13:20 PM

I am not saying that the Basque language borrowed words from an IE language. I am saying that they did not. They had their own words with clear Basque roots for things to do with agriculture and metallurgy. It is the fact that they did not borrow them that indicates that the language is of the age of metal.

In fact some IE languages of the Germanic, Baltic and Slavic branches  borrowed one of the Basque words for silver - zilar. That is one of the clues that the ancestor of Basque was spoken close to the PIE homeland.  The other is the -ko suffix in both Basque and PIE.

No it doesn’t indicate anything, once more, what about the very real probability that the words were borrowed from an extinct non-indoeuropean language that carried the technology to Basque lands. With respect to metallurgy, well they borrowed the words from Romance languages.  In fact, due to the fact that you are doing an Ad Hoc approach, you seem to omit something, either conveniently or by accident. It’s fine, we all do Ad Hoc approaches one time or another, after all we are only human. But the secondary Basque word for Copper is “Burni Gorri” literally meaning “Red Iron”, so copper is actually a compounded name made from Iron, which in the Basque Country arrived much later than Copper. Moreover Bronze in its secondary form in Basque is known as “Burni-orri” or “Yellow Iron”. So it is any wonder that they refer to silver as “urre-zuri” or “White Gold”, well, in fact that says nothing about Basque homeland being close to where gold was first discovered, it says that Basques borrowed words from Latin for metals, and that they had compounded words for most other metals. In fact they also have such thing as “urre-gorri” or “Red Gold”. Building theories based on a single line of evidence is often a dangerous thing, because as you see, the contradictions are often greater than one makes them seem in an Ad Hoc approach.


No - that just shows that once upon a time their ancestors lived in the Stone Age, which is true of us all. It does not show the final stage of the culture before vocabulary began to be extensively borrowed.

Ok, so I’m guessing the people who discovered metals forgot to create a new word for knife, even though knives were now made out of metal. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 26, 2012, 12:16:17 PM
I wonder if the lack of a big splash or branching upsteam of L23* implies that R1b was in the hunter-gatherer zone really quite late.  OK  I think we can all agree that it was off the beaten track to SE Europe c. 7000-600BC or later) and perhaps somewhat to the east of Anatolia.  The ancient DNA and variancei in modern populatons make that the Occams Razor interpretaton today.  However where does that leave R1b in saay 5000-7000BC?  There are two man choices IMO.  

1. Farmers on the north-eastern edge of middle eastern early agriculture
2. late hunter-gatherers

I feel that the lack of branch of R1b up to M269 would fit best with them being outside the demographic bonanza of early farming, perhaps as late as 5000BC.  That would make them rather more like R1a in background as late hunters coming late to farming.  I am aware that a brach must have got encapsulated into the farming world to explain the African group but clearly the other line didnt.  


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 26, 2012, 12:20:53 PM
Can anyone remind me of the views on the dating of that African R1b branch.  I noticed that some people bit it very early and other quite late.  So who is right?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 26, 2012, 12:27:47 PM
I wonder if the lack of a big splash or branching upsteam of L23* implies that R1b was in the hunter-gatherer zone really quite late.  OK  I think we can all agree that it was off the beaten track to SE Europe c. 7000-600BC or later) and perhaps somewhat to the east of Anatolia.  The ancient DNA and variancei in modern populatons make that the Occams Razor interpretaton today.  However where does that leave R1b in saay 5000-7000BC?  There are two man choices IMO.  

1. Farmers on the north-eastern edge of middle eastern early agriculture
2. late hunter-gatherers

I feel that the lack of branch of R1b up to M269 would fit best with them being outside the demographic bonanza of early farming, perhaps as late as 5000BC.  That would make them rather more like R1a in background as late hunters coming late to farming.  I am aware that a brach must have got encapsulated into the farming world to explain the African group but clearly the other line didnt.  

Wouldn't R1b have been in Northern West Asia and migrate a bit later at this point?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 26, 2012, 02:18:46 PM
Jean M - I would appreciate your opinion on my suggestion that, in an R1a=steppes hunters and R1b=some sort of middle Neolithic 2nd wave farming input sort of model, the separation time between the two R1 groups .. to their re-contacting in the Neolithic was perhaps only 4000 years which is not the sort of time depth that the two groups should have been from radically different language family groups.  

I saw that you mentioned that. The fly in the ointment is that R1b-V88 is connected with the Afro-Asiatic family, most particularly (in Africa) with Chadic. It's a puzzle. At one point I commented in my text to the effect that R1a and R1b were no longer speaking the same language, which they should have been doing originally, but then decided not to delve deeper into murky waters. It would be building speculation upon speculation.

Apparently deep time linguistics expert Starostin believed 10000 years is the limit of recognisable linguistic similarity.  I cant comment on that but it is clear to me that there was at least 3000 years between Ogham Irish Gaelic and its common root with Italic and they remained linguistically very close and of course PIE is at least 5000 years old and the connection is still clear.  So I really cannot see how different branche sof R1 only separated for a few thousand years could have ended up anything other than speaking cousin languages/distant dialects of the same branch (unless one of them adopted that of another group).  So I would feel the whole AA Chadic V88 thing is misleading.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 26, 2012, 03:04:47 PM
... what about the very real probability that the words were borrowed from an extinct non-indoeuropean language that carried the technology to Basque lands.

These are not words borrowed from any other language, let alone an IE language. Linguists can tell the difference between words which spring naturally from within a language and words which look foreign. I am not using an ad-hoc approach. I am in part drawing on a paper by linguist John Bengston: J. D. Bengtson,  The Basque language: history and origin, (http://www.ata.org.tn/fichier_PDF/osr2011bengt.pdf) International Journal of Modern Anthropology, vol. 4 (2011), pp. 43-59. It is online. He points out the agricultural vocabulary in Basque.

I disagree with his conclusion linking Basque with North Caucasian languages, but at least he has got a grip on the fact that Basque contains agricultural vocabulary of its own, something which you can see for yourself in any etymological dictionary of Euskara. These are not borrowed words.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Jean M on May 26, 2012, 03:23:03 PM
So I really cannot see how different branches of R1 only separated for a few thousand years could have ended up anything other than speaking cousin languages/distant dialects of the same branch (unless one of them adopted that of another group).  

Precisely. Picture just one R1b man (who happened to have the V88 mutation) deciding to settle down in a village and join the agricultural revolution. He has to learn the language of the rest of the village or play dumb the rest of his life. Their language is Proto-Afro-Asiatic. His descendants make quite a tribe of their own within a few generations and they are all speaking the adopted language of the Chap who Moved to the Village. Some of them decide to take off for North Africa when the drought comes. They are among other A-A speakers going that way, so it is just clannishness that creates the picture we have now, whereby V88 is associated with Chadic, but not the related Berber.    


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: JeanL on May 26, 2012, 03:40:14 PM

These are not words borrowed from any other language, let alone an IE language. Linguists can tell the difference between words which spring naturally from within a language and words which look foreign. I am not using an ad-hoc approach. I am in part drawing on a paper by linguist John Bengston: J. D. Bengtson,  The Basque language: history and origin, (http://www.ata.org.tn/fichier_PDF/osr2011bengt.pdf) International Journal of Modern Anthropology, vol. 4 (2011), pp. 43-59. It is online. He points out the agricultural vocabulary in Basque.

Ok, I clearly said that the is a very real probability that Basque could have borrowed the words from an extinct pre-Indo European language, why are you bringing in IE into the question. We know nothing about the language spoken in Central Europe prior to the arrival of IndoEuropean, for all we know they borrowed the words for agriculture from those fellows. Nonetheless, I already said that a single line of evidence is dubious, why: Take for example the presence of Mozarabic architecture in the Basque Country, does it mean that Basques were ever under Muslim influence, no, it just means that there was a diffusion of ideas from Muslim Iberian to nonMuslim Basques.

You are using an Ad Hoc approach when you neglected to mention that the secondary Basque words for copper("Burni-gorri") is a compounded word meaning Red-Iron, or that the secondary Basque word for Bronze("Burni-urri") is a compounded word meaning Yellow-Iron, so the fact that they use White-gold for silver is in line with the usage of compounded words for other metals, and says nothing about them originating in the place where gold was first discovered. So you neglected those words, because they pose a contradiction for those who argue the metal age origin of the Basque language, why would Basques a compounded word for Copper using iron as a base, when they were using copper earlier than Iron.   

I disagree with his conclusion linking Basque with North Caucasian languages, but at least he has got a grip on the fact that Basque contains agricultural vocabulary of its own, something which you can see for yourself in any etymological dictionary of Euskara. These are not borrowed words.

Like I said, I did read up a bit on it, and found out some interesting stuff, even in the linguistic field everything just seems to add up to the same mystery that on the genetic field.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 26, 2012, 05:48:57 PM
So I really cannot see how different branches of R1 only separated for a few thousand years could have ended up anything other than speaking cousin languages/distant dialects of the same branch (unless one of them adopted that of another group).  

Precisely. Picture just one R1b man (who happened to have the V88 mutation) deciding to settle down in a village and join the agricultural revolution. He has to learn the language of the rest of the village or play dumb the rest of his life. Their language is Proto-Afro-Asiatic. His descendants make quite a tribe of their own within a few generations and they are all speaking the adopted language of the Chap who Moved to the Village. Some of them decide to take off for North Africa when the drought comes. They are among other A-A speakers going that way, so it is just clannishness that creates the picture we have now, whereby V88 is associated with Chadic, but not the related Berber.    

That is basically what I am picturing too.  Does makee you think though that R1b around 6000BC and R1a may not have been radically different so there is a lost R1 cousin language or dialect other than the one that became proto IE.  In time depth terms the separation is just not that great.  I can certainly think of some level of mutual understanding of languages separated by around 2000 years.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Arch Y. on May 27, 2012, 02:30:09 AM


Ok. My apologies.  Back on to the topic of R1b where do you define that refuge? Azerbaijan or Iran. The diversity of North Iranian R1b seems high. And when do you think that R1b occurred? Since South Asia lacks R1b this must have occurred after the South Asian Neolithic with a movement from the Caspian to the west Via Anatolia to Europe. Alternatively R1b could have arrived in Bell Beaker from Anatolia where it originated. This model would not have the question of no R1b in South Asia because it would assume Iran and Europe received R1b waves after the Neolithic from Anatolia.

Also saying R1 is from the Volga-Urals would imply  that the first R1 man was Northern European automatically right? What about R and R2?

I guess that's a good point about the first R1 being European (maybe not North European, more like Eurasian) if he is from the Volga R. However, I think that the Volga R. connection would be leaning towards the first R1a man. In regards to R1b, it's anybody's guess but I have my favorite pet theory of origins for R1b is in the Syunik region of Armenia. It's close to enough to Iran, close enough to the Caspian Sea, close enough to the Anatolian Peninsula where R1b diversity appears to be the highest. Origins of R1b is in Southwest Asia.

Arch



Just because he was from the Volga doesn't mean he was European. I was asking if autosomal components such as Northern European, West Asian even existed by then or was he just some  West Eurasian?

Why specifically that region? When Anatolia and Iran are better fits? I personally think narrowing down ydnas to such a small region is ridiculous. How do you know?

I am curious on what Jean M defines the Hyrcanian refuge R1b comes from as.
[/quote]

I personally don't think we will ever know exactly where R1b originated. Even if you have high variance, diversity and frequency all clumped together, it's no guarantee; we can only guess. I think it's ridiculous to target a region with a wide brush stroke and call it good. For that matter and to be absolutely certain, I would just say R1b originated in the Eastern Hemisphere. On another point of targeting areas, Anatolia and Iran in my opinion are quite large and if it's believed that R1b originated in either place, then it should based on a regional affinity of where supporting data has been collected in Anatolia or Iran for that matter. So in essence we are stuck with regions rather than countries, sub-continents, continents or hemispheres to make our best guesses as most studies are regional focused.

Arch


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 27, 2012, 03:35:49 AM
I am not using an ad-hoc approach. I am in part drawing on a paper by linguist John Bengston: J. D. Bengtson,  The Basque language: history and origin, (http://www.ata.org.tn/fichier_PDF/osr2011bengt.pdf) International Journal of Modern Anthropology, vol. 4 (2011), pp. 43-59. It is online. He points out the agricultural vocabulary in Basque.

I disagree with his conclusion linking Basque with North Caucasian languages.
I thank you for having posted the link to this paper, very interesting. Of course I think that the link between Basque and North-East Caucasian languages is demonstrated, and from more than a century, from when Alfredo Trombetti published “Delle relazioni delle lingue caucasiche con le lingue camitosemitiche e con altri gruppi linguistici” (1902-1903) and then with the fundamental “Le origini della lingua basca” (1923-1925). Trombetti saw the “origini della lingua basca” in his wider theory of the monogenesis of the language.
Of course we don’t know where the Caucasian languages were spoken 10000 years ago, and probably the Caucasus has been a refugium from other regions nearby, and we don’t know which path has had the Basque language for arriving to Pyrenees. Someone thinks that similar languages were diffused overall in Western Europe and is trying to find some vestigial of them. And we don’t know where IE languages formed etc etc. and we don’t know where Etruscan language (and similar) formed: you all are repeating slavishly its origin from Aegean sea, which is undemonstrated and not in line with the last archaeological studies. Etruscan languages is a language of ancient Italy with Rhaetian and Camun and Trombetti thought it was intermediate between Caucasian and IE languages. We don’t know which language was spoken in Sardinia or Corsica, but makes me think the possible link of Basque *čori “bird” with Tindi č’uri-GaGa “quail” and Sardinian (from substrate) thiligugu “owl”. I interpreted in the past similar words (see also thilighelta “lizard”) like Berber-wise ones, but probably they are linked to the Caucasian ones in a wider link of the first ancient linguistic groups.

If we still hold what archaeology has demonstrated:
1)   7500 years ago agriculturalists from Italy colonized Iberia. We don’t know which language they spoke and if they were autochthonous or came from East. They could speak a Caucasian language, the ancestor of the Basque, the only one survived. We don’t know which hg. they were, but they could be mostly hg. G, that we have found at Treilles and in all the ancient findings. But I wouldn’t exclude that also R-L51* was amongst them, if we look at the RRocca’s map and the presence of this haplogroup exactly in the places that they colonized: Valencia region and Portugal.
2)   The link between Ligurian and Lusitanian, probably the ancestor of all the Celt languages which expanded to Central-North Europe from Iberia with the BB, should be later, but we don’t know another period with a colonization of Iberia from Italy before the Roman Empire, and we shouldn’t think that an unique language was spoken in Italy then. There could be many different languages like in every other place of Europe.
3)   Of course I still hold my conviction that R1b1* with YCAII=18-22 and 18-23, the intermediate haplogroup between R1b1* and R1b1a2* (Mangino/Mancini), R-L23+/150-, my R-L23/L150*, R-L51*, and why not R-P312* (not found so far) but R-DF27* yes etc. are “cosa nostra”.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Bren123 on May 27, 2012, 07:31:46 AM
What part of Germany is Kromsdorf located?


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 27, 2012, 07:51:59 AM
What part of Germany is Kromsdorf located?

Near Weimar in Thuringia in east central Germany between Leipzig and Erfurt here (http://tinyurl.com/76nscaw).



Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Bren123 on May 27, 2012, 08:00:21 AM
What part of Germany is Kromsdorf located?

Near Weimar in Thuringia in east central Germany between Leipzig and Erfurt here (http://tinyurl.com/76nscaw).



Thanks!


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 27, 2012, 10:14:23 AM
Does anyone have any comments about the very distributions of the very upstream forms of R1a?  It seems to have a similar scattered more southern distribition as early R1b forms. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 27, 2012, 12:10:18 PM
Does anyone have any comments about the very distributions of the very upstream forms of R1a?  It seems to have a similar scattered more southern distribition as early R1b forms. 

They are concentrated in West Asia and Western Europe. They are so rare so I wouldn't put too much weight into them. I find it unlikely that upstream R1a  didn't exist in Eastern Europe or the fringe of Eastern Europe and Asia where R1a originated.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 27, 2012, 12:38:04 PM
By the last researches it seems that R1a is more recent than R1b, which is at least 18.000 years old and the most ancient R1a, i.e. R-M420, has been found in Western Europe above all and none in Asia nor in India. Probably you’ll realize that my hypotheses could be wrong but are an exam of the data at our disposal. If other and different data will come out, I of course will change my hypotheses, which so far are: R1a and R1b from the Italian Refugium, Indo-European languages probably from Central Europe, where centum and satem languages separated and  probably also R1a and R1b. Satem languages are more recent than centum ones etc. etc., all things that we know very well, but probably Sindhi not


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 27, 2012, 05:34:59 PM
Does anyone have any comments about the very distributions of the very upstream forms of R1a?  It seems to have a similar scattered more southern distribition as early R1b forms. 

They are concentrated in West Asia and Western Europe. They are so rare so I wouldn't put too much weight into them. I find it unlikely that upstream R1a  didn't exist in Eastern Europe or the fringe of Eastern Europe and Asia where R1a originated.

I think its very much a mega leap of faith to think that the current distribution of upstream forms tells us the origin.  The origin of R1a* could be anywhere from the Balkans to India longitudinally and several latitudes are possible.  Same with R1b.  I dont think the impact of single people and their lineages should ever be underestimated.

I think though that the lack of an early substantial tree like pattern in R1b prior to 3000BC or later does seem to indicate something and a similar thing can be extrapolated for early R1a.  Both R1 super-clades seem to share this lack of take off in say 6000BC that is apparent in E, J and G.  The most obvious explanation for this, which fits the ancient DNA of the early Neolithic to date and fits variance is that both R1a and R1b were somewhat backwards or removed in terms of the initial takeup of farming.  I am growing less convinced that R1b was among the early farmers anywhere, with maybe some elements straying in around 5000BC from some non-farming area to the north.  The main evidence for this is purely the R1b tree pre-L23.  It just doesnt have the pattern expected of becoming part of the farming bonanza until fairly late except perhaps a few stray lines.   That all leads me to think R1b may have had a very R1a-like story.  It does seem to me that both R1a and R1b first appear in the ancient DNA evidence at a similar time c. 2800-2500BC.  Both first appear in roughly the same area although I understand that is just chance in terms of DNA testing.  Both seem dominated by copper age clades.  I just wonder if we are trying to contrast early R1a and R1b too much based on their different trajectories c. 3000-2400BC. The evidence is slowly looking them look rather similar.  Its also clear to me that they would have spoken at least distantly related dialects. 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 27, 2012, 08:23:45 PM
I am starting to believe that the history of R1b and R1a before their late Neolithic expansion is written into their trees and the straight little branching nature until fairly late in the Neolithic.  They do seem to me to be the terrible twins with so much in common in that sense.  The history of R1a prior to the later Neolithic is interpreted as late steppes Mesolithic and that does seem plausible.  Unlike some haplogroups, R1a and R1b both seem to lack the bushy branching until late in the Neolithic.  It just seems more and more likely with the ancient DNA evidence and the variance calculations (which are supported by ancient DNA) and the shape of the pre-4000BC trees that both R1a and R1b were late Mesolithic hunter groups somewhere in eastern Europe or its border with Asia.  I suspect now that they were not far from each other and that they only acquired farming practices around 5000-3000BC when the branching seems to start.  That might tend to place them in the same sort of background as that often stated for R1a.  Where do you get late Mesolithic groups who remained outside agriculture until really quite late but were also able to send the odd person like Mr V88 and Mr L23 into the farming zone?  Here is a hunch.  When R1b really burst onto the scene it seems they had a maritime tradition judging by Bell Beakers.  I would suggest they were fishers on the Black or Caspian Sea or thereabouts. Fishing groups even in modern times are notorious for rarely marrying out and living as if their land orientated neighbours 1 mile away didnt exist.  I dont know enough about the very late hunter-fishers in those area (although I will have a dig into it).  I know the whole Mesolithic of the Black Sea western shores from Thrace (and perhaps even the north coast of Anatolia) to the Crimea have at various points been described as linked which is not all that surprising.

 


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 28, 2012, 12:29:46 PM
Does anyone have any comments about the very distributions of the very upstream forms of R1a?  It seems to have a similar scattered more southern distribition as early R1b forms. 

They are concentrated in West Asia and Western Europe. They are so rare so I wouldn't put too much weight into them. I find it unlikely that upstream R1a  didn't exist in Eastern Europe or the fringe of Eastern Europe and Asia where R1a originated.

I think its very much a mega leap of faith to think that the current distribution of upstream forms tells us the origin.  The origin of R1a* could be anywhere from the Balkans to India longitudinally and several latitudes are possible.  Same with R1b.  I dont think the impact of single people and their lineages should ever be underestimated.

I think though that the lack of an early substantial tree like pattern in R1b prior to 3000BC or later does seem to indicate something and a similar thing can be extrapolated for early R1a.  Both R1 super-clades seem to share this lack of take off in say 6000BC that is apparent in E, J and G.  The most obvious explanation for this, which fits the ancient DNA of the early Neolithic to date and fits variance is that both R1a and R1b were somewhat backwards or removed in terms of the initial takeup of farming.  I am growing less convinced that R1b was among the early farmers anywhere, with maybe some elements straying in around 5000BC from some non-farming area to the north.  The main evidence for this is purely the R1b tree pre-L23.  It just doesnt have the pattern expected of becoming part of the farming bonanza until fairly late except perhaps a few stray lines.   That all leads me to think R1b may have had a very R1a-like story.  It does seem to me that both R1a and R1b first appear in the ancient DNA evidence at a similar time c. 2800-2500BC.  Both first appear in roughly the same area although I understand that is just chance in terms of DNA testing.  Both seem dominated by copper age clades.  I just wonder if we are trying to contrast early R1a and R1b too much based on their different trajectories c. 3000-2400BC. The evidence is slowly looking them look rather similar.  Its also clear to me that they would have spoken at least distantly related dialects. 

I agree with that. Which is why I don't put much into them. R1a originated at the border between Asia and Europe imo. The upstream clades would tell you they came from Western Europe or Western Asia.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 29, 2012, 01:32:32 PM
By the last researches it seems that R1a is more recent than R1b, which is at least 18.000 years old ...
How do you know R1b is at least 18k ybp?  Karafet, 2008, has the TMRCA for R1 as 18.5k ybp using what they call a "novel SNP counting" method.  That 18.5k would be a maximum age range for R1b, not a minimum.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 29, 2012, 01:43:08 PM
See the last classification of Terry, I thought was Ken Nordtvedt, knowing very well hg. I, but it seems you said to me he is another person. Anyway he has an update of the age of the haplogroups, and R1b is about 18,000 years old and R1 about 25,000 if I remember well.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 29, 2012, 01:51:52 PM
See the last classification of Terry, I thought was Ken Nordtvedt, knowing very well hg. I, but it seems you said to me he is another person. Anyway he has an update of the age of the haplogroups, and R1b is about 18,000 years old and R1 about 25,000 if I remember well.
I have found the page I printed and this is the link:

http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Arch Y. on May 31, 2012, 03:18:24 AM
Here is an interesting link to a video about Nebra. This is only a mere 20 miles or so from the Bell Beaker finds in Kromsdorf. Basically, this is Germany's Stonehenge! If I'm not mistaken there is also an ancient calendar near Heuneburg in the Black Forest, I'll have to dig up the info.

Arch

Here is the link! BTW, at 23 minutes, 25 seconds should interest many of you.

http://tinyurl.com/6lr44xo (http://tinyurl.com/6lr44xo)


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: OConnor on May 31, 2012, 01:37:04 PM
Apparently this news article suggests many changes in Norway around 4000 years ago. Could this be part of the Beaker People movement?

http://sciencenordic.com/immigration-stone-age


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: rms2 on May 31, 2012, 07:25:18 PM
Apparently this news article suggests many changes in Norway around 4000 years ago. Could this be part of the Beaker People movement?

http://sciencenordic.com/immigration-stone-age

Could be. This paper (http://uio.academia.edu/ChristopherPrescott/Papers/1412859/History_in_prehistory_-_the_later_Neolithic_Early_Metal_Age_Norway) discusses Bell Beaker finds in Denmark and Norway. Its author, Christopher Prescott, is the archaeologist shown in the photo at the link you posted above.


Title: Re: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA
Post by: Mark Jost on June 06, 2012, 10:23:04 AM
Here is a french Beaker Bell info site
Links: The Beaker / Links Beakers
http://ubprehistoire.free.fr/Liens-Campaniforme.html

Translated to English
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fubprehistoire.free.fr%2FLiens-Campaniforme.html