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Title: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 19, 2012, 09:24:38 AM
DF41 is old and could be widespread.

We have two DF41+ folks that I know of.

f176148___ Duffy____________________ R-L21**______________________ 41- unnassigned_____ PP38U___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Belfast
f29705____ McCown___________________ R-L21*_______________________ 41-1426C-A__________ P8ZR6___ Ireland, Ulster


Looks like Duffy has lost his ** status. I've been unable to assign him to any variety. The other DF41+, McCown, is in the 1426C variety which I think is a fairly firm STR signature.

f176148 Duffy has GD's in the 16 to 25 range at 67 markers from the folks
in the 41-1426C variety. I count his GD from DF41+ f29705 McCown as 20 including differences at 4 slow STRs.

I don't think DF41 has been thoroughly tested by FTDNA (as displayed in our haplotrees publicly) across the other major subclades of L21 although I know an L513+ guy is DF41-. However, in the HG project results, DF41 appears to be parallel to the other large subclades so it might be time to start thinking about creating a category for it in the L21 project.

Here are the rest of the 1426C guys:

f130615___ Barton___________________ zzPredicted__________________ 41-1426C*___________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f223382___ Barton___________________ zzPredicted__________________ 41-1426C*___________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f211437___ Bratton__________________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C*___________ GKRCZ___ Ireland
f75460____ Majors___________________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C*___________ 6BZ7V___ zzzUnkOrigin
f156437___ McBurney_________________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C*___________ ___ Scotland
f170555___ McBurney_________________ zzPredicted__________________ 41-1426C*___________ WFPQ5___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Armagh, Ballysheilmore
f21647____ McCleland________________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C*___________ 8YRSC___ zzzUnkOrigin
f52062____ Miller___________________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C*___________ 6YU4P___ Ireland
f96950____ Miller___________________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C*___________ Z4EKZ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f4500_____ Wilson___________________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C*___________ NX6G9___ Ireland, Ulster
f18391____ Chamberlain______________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C-A__________ GXK6G___ zzzUnkOrigin
f93399____ Edwards__________________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C-A__________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f1503_____ McCown___________________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C-A__________ HZUXJ___ Ireland
f29705____ McCown___________________ R-L21*_______________________ 41-1426C-A__________ P8ZR6___ Ireland, Ulster
f78799____ Smith____________________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C-A__________ WS99W___ UK
f213376___ zzzUnknown_______________ zzPredicted__________________ 41-1426C-A__________ ___ Scotland


BTW, I'm a little embarrassed to ask this. What is an "Irish C" guy?  One of the guys in the variety above calls himself an Irish C guy and I thought it was an STR signature so I added "C" to 1426. However, I can't find references anywhere to Irish STR signature/cluster so I may be just dreaming something.

Here is the status of pending DF41 tests in the Irish project.
Quote from: Paul D
Looking at the pending results in Ireland yDNA project I see at least 5 DF41 tests have just been batched. These will be part of batch 460. These been:

1503 -- McCown
31795 -- Hopkins
35550 -- Salmon
N8772 -- Porter
N36830 -- Moore

There are two other pending DF41 results which are part of batch 459, these been:
 91704 -- Kelly   
228772 -- Reid


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mark Jost on April 19, 2012, 10:17:30 AM
I posted this to Paul, the new DF41 guy, on the Yahoo L21 Project and thought I would mention it here.

"Using MikeW L21ext sheet and the modified GD counter it shows 33 mutations
between you and McCown 29705 whom which is the smallest of the 1426c cluster
range that has up to 39 differences. TMRCA range is around 2030 to 2399 ybp
between you and the 1426c's.

"This is a pretty old SNP! It will take a large testing effort to define the
haplotype bell curve."


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on April 19, 2012, 01:52:24 PM
BTW, I'm a little embarrassed to ask this. What is an "Irish C" guy?  One of the guys in the variety above calls himself an Irish C guy and I thought it was an STR signature so I added "C" to 1426. However, I can't find references anywhere to Irish STR signature/cluster so I may be just dreaming something.

Mike I could be wrong on here but perhaps "Irish C" = Irish Sea, given that my fellow DF41 appears to have ancestry in and around Galloway (Land of the Gall-Ghaeil).

Thanks for creating the thread. There is at least two other DF41's in batch 460. With regards to other major SNP's I know there is a M222 (thus DF23) awaiting DF41 results in batch 459 (Kelly)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 19, 2012, 02:21:38 PM
BTW, I'm a little embarrassed to ask this. What is an "Irish C" guy?  One of the guys in the variety above calls himself an Irish C guy and I thought it was an STR signature so I added "C" to 1426. However, I can't find references anywhere to Irish STR signature/cluster so I may be just dreaming something.

Mike I could be wrong on here but perhaps "Irish C" = Irish Sea, given that my fellow DF41 appears to have ancestry in and around Galloway (Land of the Gall-Ghaeil)...

My understanding is there is a an Irish Sea haplotype and it is the equivalent to what some call Leinster and other Lagin.  Perhaps that's why they switched to "C". 

... or does this have anything to do with the Irish Causeway?   I see another reference on the web to Irish "C" and then they refer to the Causeway in Co. Antrim.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant%27s_Causeway


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 19, 2012, 05:18:07 PM
Definitely has that strong western Scottish - Ulster - Irish connection which seems incredibly common in clusters and doesnt all seem to be down to the Ulster Plantation of the 17th century.  There must have been an awful lot of movement in that sea channel over 1000s of years. 


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on April 20, 2012, 03:22:32 PM
some call Leinster and other Lagin.  Perhaps that's why they switched to "C". 


Just to explain this. The province is called Leinster in English and Laighin in Modern Irish. In older Irish writings the h was often left out or written with an overdot thence in old irish you will see: laigin or Laiġin (overdot on g).

Of course the modern boundaries of Leinster are considerably larger then the historic province.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/Kingdom_of_Leinster-900.svg/460px-Kingdom_of_Leinster-900.svg.png)

vs.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Leinster_locator_map.svg/481px-Leinster_locator_map.svg.png)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 20, 2012, 06:29:09 PM
some call Leinster and other Lagin.  Perhaps that's why they switched to "C". 


Just to explain this. The province is called Leinster in English and Laighin in Modern Irish. In older Irish writings the h was often left out or written with an overdot thence in old irish you will see: laigin or Laiġin (overdot on g).

Of course the modern boundaries of Leinster are considerably larger then the historic province.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/Kingdom_of_Leinster-900.svg/460px-Kingdom_of_Leinster-900.svg.png)

vs.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Leinster_locator_map.svg/481px-Leinster_locator_map.svg.png)

They won the rugby v Ulster tonight.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on April 21, 2012, 08:00:20 AM
some call Leinster and other Lagin.  Perhaps that's why they switched to "C". 


Just to explain this. The province is called Leinster in English and Laighin in Modern Irish. In older Irish writings the h was often left out or written with an overdot thence in old irish you will see: laigin or Laiġin (overdot on g).

Of course the modern boundaries of Leinster are considerably larger then the historic province.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/Kingdom_of_Leinster-900.svg/460px-Kingdom_of_Leinster-900.svg.png)

vs.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Leinster_locator_map.svg/481px-Leinster_locator_map.svg.png)

They won the rugby v Ulster tonight.

Well if you believe some wags the Leinster Rugby team only really represents "the Pale", thence their moaning bout people from likes of Kilkenny/Offaly supporting Munster hah!

Of course historically County Louth was regarded as part of Ulster until the 17th century. (Oirialla -- Airghíalla in old Irish -- Oriel in english)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: A.D. on April 21, 2012, 10:21:28 PM
At one time Ulladh (Ulster) took up nearly half of Ireland as far as the 'Black Pigs Dyke'


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on April 22, 2012, 11:47:45 AM
At one time Ulladh (Ulster) took up nearly half of Ireland as far as the 'Black Pigs Dyke'

Back Pigs Dyke is in Cavan, Leitrim etc this is hardly half of Ireland. If anything it reflects pretty much the modern defintion of the boundaries of province of Ulster

(http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/111/73b5409c010f3e80bcae9422dfd3b6be/l.jpg)

Half of Ireland would be a line from Galway to Dublin. This would include all of Meath and Connacht, it maps to the pseudo-historical concept of "Leath Cuinn" (Conn's half) which maps to the geological "Eiscir Riada" (glacial ridge geological structure), on which ran the "Slí Mór" and was followed in modern times by the N6 national road and the new M4/M6 motorway.

(http://www.tarataratara.net/resources/Tara_roads/East_West/img_5_roadsFW.jpg)

(http://bifrost.it/CELTI/Schemi/Eriu03.GIF)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: McCown on April 24, 2012, 07:52:38 PM
That's correct, I believe that 1426ers are "mostly" from Kirkcudbright/Galloway and that many of them show a most distant known ancestor from Ireland because they are Scots-Irish/Ulster-Scots.

I think they are from Galloway because  A) Clan MacLellan is from Kirkcudbright and there are a lot of McClellan matches in 1426C.  B) Many of the 1426C surnames are on the list bellow.

http://boards.ancestry.com/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=98&p=localities.britisles.scotland.kkd.general

Barton, Bratton, Burney(McBurnie), Cannon, Cowan(McCown), Chambers(Chamberlain), Gordon, McClellan, McCune, Miller, Nicholson(Nichols), Ramsey, Robinson, Smith, Tait, Turner, Wilson, Wright.... possibly Morrison?

The thing I'm most curious about... is how did they get to Galloway( a melting pot of sorts ).  I want to say they are not Normans because kit 29705 had no French in the "population finder".  I figure they are either Saxons, Picts, or Gaels.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: McCown on April 24, 2012, 11:16:33 PM
BTW, I'm a little embarrassed to ask this. What is an "Irish C" guy?  One of the guys in the variety above calls himself an Irish C guy and I thought it was an STR signature so I added "C" to 1426. However, I can't find references anywhere to Irish STR signature/cluster so I may be just dreaming something.

Mike I could be wrong on here but perhaps "Irish C" = Irish Sea, given that my fellow DF41 appears to have ancestry in and around Galloway (Land of the Gall-Ghaeil).

Thanks for creating the thread. There is at least two other DF41's in batch 460. With regards to other major SNP's I know there is a M222 (thus DF23) awaiting DF41 results in batch 459 (Kelly)

The "Irish C" is what they labeled it in the L21 WTY Project.  I have no idea why they labeled it as such but I occasionally used it when referring to 1426.  I was never sure if I should use Mike's "1426" label or WTY's "Irish C" label.  Eventually Mike combined the two.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on April 29, 2012, 05:35:16 PM
I created an R-DF41 category at the R-L21 Plus Project today. There are three guys in it thus far. Please let me know if I have missed anyone who has tested DF41+.

It's on page 4 of the Y-DNA Results pages here (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/default.aspx?vgroup=R-L21&section=yresults).


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on April 30, 2012, 07:00:28 AM
There are four men in the R-DF41 category as of this morning.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: OConnor on April 30, 2012, 07:09:02 AM
do you think it's a shot for us to test for DF-41 ?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on April 30, 2012, 07:11:24 AM
do you think it's a shot for us to test for DF-41 ?

It is worth a try, yes.

Take a look at that category and see what you think of the haplotypes there. I haven't had time to really check them out, but I doubt if they are close to mine.

Anyway, three of the four men in that category so far are Irish (and the other might be), so that is one factor in your favor.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on April 30, 2012, 07:15:20 AM
do you think it's a shot for us to test for DF-41 ?

It is worth a try, yes.

Take a look at that category and see what you think of the haplotypes there. I haven't had time to really check them out, but I doubt if they are close to mine.

Anyway, three of the four men in that category so far are Irish (and the other might be), so that is one factor in your favor.

I take that back. One of them, McCown, is a Scot, but, well, you know.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: OConnor on April 30, 2012, 07:32:29 AM
I'll hold off for now. I don't see much in common between mine and their' sequences.

thanks


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: samIsaack on April 30, 2012, 10:47:06 AM
BTW, I'm a little embarrassed to ask this. What is an "Irish C" guy?  One of the guys in the variety above calls himself an Irish C guy and I thought it was an STR signature so I added "C" to 1426. However, I can't find references anywhere to Irish STR signature/cluster so I may be just dreaming something.

Mike I could be wrong on here but perhaps "Irish C" = Irish Sea, given that my fellow DF41 appears to have ancestry in and around Galloway (Land of the Gall-Ghaeil).

Thanks for creating the thread. There is at least two other DF41's in batch 460. With regards to other major SNP's I know there is a M222 (thus DF23) awaiting DF41 results in batch 459 (Kelly)

Perhaps he is apart of the group that Mike Whalen (dna-forums) was calling "Lost Irish C* boys"? In reference to the days before L21 was discovered and your group was known as R1b1c*. Just an observation.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on May 01, 2012, 04:21:09 PM
Just an update we got confirmation that DF23+/M222+ is DF41-. I'm in the process of sponsoring the following to test so as to confirm status
  • L144
  • L371


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: McCown on May 10, 2012, 09:44:21 AM
Anyway, three of the four men in that category so far are Irish (and the other might be), so that is one factor in your favor.

The 1426ers ( i.e. the non-Duffys ) are mostly Scotch-Irish( Ulster Scots ).

I present my case for this in reply#10 above.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: NealtheRed on May 10, 2012, 10:01:40 AM
Just an update we got confirmation that DF23+/M222+ is DF41-. I'm in the process of sponsoring the following to test so as to confirm status
  • L144
  • L371

Do you guys suggest any Irish Sea folk test for it to determine DF41's relationship to Z255, or are we all most likely negative for DF41?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on May 10, 2012, 01:15:43 PM
Just an update we got confirmation that DF23+/M222+ is DF41-. I'm in the process of sponsoring the following to test so as to confirm status
  • L144
  • L371

Do you guys suggest any Irish Sea folk test for it to determine DF41's relationship to Z255, or are we all most likely negative for DF41?

Neal,

We have a Z255+/L159.2+ testing at the moment for DF41. All of the current ISOGG SNP's are in process of been tested as well as L744 and L555. This should ensure DF41 been eligible for qualification for the ISOGG tree by hopefully the middle/end of June.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on May 10, 2012, 02:01:54 PM
Here's list of people from different L21 SNP's who are awaiting a DF41 result:

DF21+: 155347
L371+:  36039
L144+:  83115
Z253+:  205635
Z255+: 166226
L96+:   176268
L744+: 52758
L555+: 33141


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on May 22, 2012, 05:43:07 PM
Here's list of people from different L21 SNP's who are awaiting a DF41 result:

DF21+: 155347
L371+:  36039
L144+:  83115
Z253+:  205635
Z255+: 166226
L96+:   176268
L744+: 52758
L555+: 33141

To follow up on this we have confirmation today that following are DF41-
L371+
L144+
Z253+
Z255+
L96+
L555+

Once I get the results for L744 and DF21 I'll be submitting DF41 for inclusion in ISOGG tree. The other result today is that DF41+ is confirmed as DF49-


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: NealtheRed on May 22, 2012, 09:50:33 PM
Here's list of people from different L21 SNP's who are awaiting a DF41 result:

DF21+: 155347
L371+:  36039
L144+:  83115
Z253+:  205635
Z255+: 166226
L96+:   176268
L744+: 52758
L555+: 33141

To follow up on this we have confirmation today that following are DF41-
L371+
L144+
Z253+
Z255+
L96+
L555+

Once I get the results for L744 and DF21 I'll be submitting DF41 for inclusion in ISOGG tree. The other result today is that DF41+ is confirmed as DF49-

Thanks for beating me to it, Dubhthach. I was just going to report the results for some of our Z255+ guys!


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on May 24, 2012, 02:06:07 PM
Here's list of people from different L21 SNP's who are awaiting a DF41 result:

DF21+: 155347
L371+:  36039
L144+:  83115
Z253+:  205635
Z255+: 166226
L96+:   176268
L744+: 52758
L555+: 33141

To follow up on this we have confirmation today that following are DF41-
L371+
L144+
Z253+
Z255+
L96+
L555+

Once I get the results for L744 and DF21 I'll be submitting DF41 for inclusion in ISOGG tree. The other result today is that DF41+ is confirmed as DF49-

Thanks for beating me to it, Dubhthach. I was just going to report the results for some of our Z255+ guys!

One thing we should look at is Z255+ status with regards to ISOGG. It's not currently on their tree as it's phylogeny hasn't been verified let with regards to all current ISOGG SNP's.

-Paul


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: NealtheRed on May 24, 2012, 04:03:19 PM
Here's list of people from different L21 SNP's who are awaiting a DF41 result:

DF21+: 155347
L371+:  36039
L144+:  83115
Z253+:  205635
Z255+: 166226
L96+:   176268
L744+: 52758
L555+: 33141

To follow up on this we have confirmation today that following are DF41-
L371+
L144+
Z253+
Z255+
L96+
L555+

Once I get the results for L744 and DF21 I'll be submitting DF41 for inclusion in ISOGG tree. The other result today is that DF41+ is confirmed as DF49-

Thanks for beating me to it, Dubhthach. I was just going to report the results for some of our Z255+ guys!

One thing we should look at is Z255+ status with regards to ISOGG. It's not currently on their tree as it's phylogeny hasn't been verified let with regards to all current ISOGG SNP's.

-Paul

I wonder if it has to do with L159.2's volatility? For some reason, getting folks to test for Z255 these days has been more difficult than usual.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on June 09, 2012, 07:11:59 AM
Just an update a DF21+ came back as DF41- today. This confirms DF41 placement with regards to all currently listed ISOGG SNP's. I've submitted it for inclusion.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 01, 2012, 09:26:01 PM
I thought I would bump up this thread to talk about DF41, since my cluster brother Cooper, kit 57563, Ysearch 4BN3G, got a DF41+ result a couple of days ago. So, it looks very likely I will get a DF41+ result, too (I hope).

Of the 15 men currently in the DF41+ category in the R-L21 Plus Project (I am leaving out for now those who have tested L744+ or L745+), here are what they list as their ancestral homelands:

Scotland = 5
Ireland = 4
Northern Ireland = 2
United Kingdom = 2
Isle of Man = 1
England = 1


The two who list "United Kingdom" are Americans who are not currently able to get their y lines out of North America but who have British surnames.





Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 01, 2012, 09:35:00 PM
I count 77 men who have been tested for DF41 in the R-L21 Plus Project. That's not near enough.

We need a lot more DF41 testing.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 01, 2012, 09:51:36 PM
I count 77 men who have been tested for DF41 in the R-L21 Plus Project. That's not near enough.

We need a lot more DF41 testing.

Only two of our French members have been tested for DF41. One Spaniard has tested for it, and one Portuguese guy. One Dane and two Germans have tested for DF41.

That's it for continental DF41 testing: 7.

Yikes!!!

Thus far there are no DF41+ results from the European continent, but, with only seven continentals tested, not much can be said about it.



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 02, 2012, 06:27:55 AM
According to FTDNA draft y tree a total of 101 men have been tested of which 20 are derived. I assume this includes some of the L744/L746 folks, I had sponsor one of them to test DF41 when I was in process of getting it added to the ISOGG tree.

The other relevant stats are:

L744: 20 derived / 183 tested
L746: 20 derived / 420 tested
L745: 19 derived / 177 tested

L563: 3 derived / 245 tested

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813501

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: k.o.gran on September 02, 2012, 06:58:49 AM
I'm trying to see if we can get L563 on the isogg tree, so there are some DF41 tests pending for people who are very likely DF41+.

I think the main reason we don't see too many people testing past L21 is that FTDNA's haplotree is terribly outdated. So is the deep clade test. This is how FTDNA (still) describe the deep clade test:
Quote
The Deep Clade test will determine what your assignment is within the Haplogroup tree. The lab will start with a prediction of your haplogroup assignment, and then test however many SNPs are necessary within the tree in order to determine your subclade assignment.
I thought it sounded like a good deal when I ordered it one and a half year ago. When it was done, I knew that I was L21*. I started to look for more information and soon found that I was not L21* at all. I was only L21+. Then I started ordering SNPs from the draft tree to try to get further down the branches of the tree. Many of the tests I ordered had a 0% chance of testing positive, but I did not know that back then. It all comes down to lack of good information.

I think what has been done to reorganize the R-L21 project is brilliant! I believe new members are a lot more likely to do advanced SNP testing. And I really hope that people who want to test but feel confused contact either a project admin or the L21 yahoo group.

I've contacted quite a few people with testing suggestions and most of them are very grateful when getting advice and end up ordering the SNP.

-Kai


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Heber on September 02, 2012, 08:08:39 AM
According to FTDNA draft y tree a total of 101 men have been tested of which 20 are derived. I assume this includes some of the L744/L746 folks, I had sponsor one of them to test DF41 when I was in process of getting it added to the ISOGG tree.

The other relevant stats are:

L744: 20 derived / 183 tested
L746: 20 derived / 420 tested
L745: 19 derived / 177 tested

L563: 3 derived / 245 tested

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813501

-Paul
(DF41+)

If we look at the surnames positive for DF41+, many can be traced to Scotland (Galloway, Argyl, Hebrides) including Duffy (MacFie), Stevens (McTavish), McBurney, McCown, Cannon.
Most of these trace their clan affiliations to Dal Riadia Genealogies.
IF we then look at the surrounding DF13 with clades greater than 5% (DF41 is 3%) we get a dominantly Gaelic signature.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763689694/

If this is correct it raises the interesting case of the Stewart Royal Line (FitzAlen) downstream of DF41 (L744,L745,L746) could have Gaelic blood lines after all.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 02, 2012, 08:28:36 AM
According to FTDNA draft y tree a total of 101 men have been tested of which 20 are derived. I assume this includes some of the L744/L746 folks, I had sponsor one of them to test DF41 when I was in process of getting it added to the ISOGG tree.

The other relevant stats are:

L744: 20 derived / 183 tested
L746: 20 derived / 420 tested
L745: 19 derived / 177 tested

L563: 3 derived / 245 tested

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813501

-Paul
(DF41+)

Thanks, Paul.

The 77 figure I had was from the R-L21 Plus Project, so obviously some folks who are not in the project have tested for DF41. 20 out of 101 is not a bad frequency, but I am guessing many of those who tested probably did so because they are in the same cluster with some of the guys who had already tested DF41+, so that 20 out of 101 is not purely random. Otherwise DF41 would account for nearly 20% of all L21! I don't think that's the case.

I'm also guessing a lot of that L744, L746, L745 testing comes by way of the Stewarts.

Only a handful of our project members have tested for L563, and only one of them, Creer, got a positive result.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 02, 2012, 08:35:57 AM
According to FTDNA draft y tree a total of 101 men have been tested of which 20 are derived. I assume this includes some of the L744/L746 folks, I had sponsor one of them to test DF41 when I was in process of getting it added to the ISOGG tree.

The other relevant stats are:

L744: 20 derived / 183 tested
L746: 20 derived / 420 tested
L745: 19 derived / 177 tested

L563: 3 derived / 245 tested

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813501

-Paul
(DF41+)

If we look at the surnames positive for DF41+, many can be traced to Scotland (Galloway, Argyl, Hebrides) including Duffy (MacFie), Stevens (McTavish), McBurney, McCown, Cannon.
Most of these trace their clan affiliations to Dal Riadia Genealogies.
IF we then look at the surrounding DF13 with clades greater than 5% (DF41 is 3%) we get a dominantly Gaelic signature.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763689694/

If this is correct it raises the interesting case of the Stewart Royal Line (FitzAlen) downstream of DF41 (L744,L745,L746) could have Gaelic blood lines after all.


I'm interested in your view that the surname Stevens is connected to Clan McTavish, Heber. I'm not sure that's right in my particular case, although I would be mightily pleased if it were. My matches seem to point to the West Midlands of England, but admittedly most of them can't get their y lines out of North America. I do have a solid 65/67 match with a man whose family came from Shropshire near the Welsh border. He himself was born in Worcester. That match is the biggest clue I have, although we don't share the same surname. He has no matches in his own surname project, however. Most of his closest matches are Stevenses and Stephenses.

A funny coincidence regarding DF41 is that one of my 2nd great grandmothers was a Stewart, and I have a bunch of the L745+ Stewarts as Family Finder matches.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: k.o.gran on September 02, 2012, 08:36:19 AM
Only a handful of our project members have tested for L563, and only one of them, Creer, got a positive result.

Yes, it seems quite small. One person (Dugger) in Creer's cluster has already tested L563-. We've got a few more candidates, but it seems we're running out. BTW: L563 was found in Creer's WTY.

-Kai


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 02, 2012, 08:40:21 AM
I heard from another of my cluster brothers, Self, Ysearch 54XP8, this morning. He's going to order DF41.

He's a 66/67 match for Cooper, so he'll be DF41+.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 02, 2012, 08:43:34 AM
Only a handful of our project members have tested for L563, and only one of them, Creer, got a positive result.

Yes, it seems quite small. One person (Dugger) in Creer's cluster has already tested L563-. We've got a few more candidates, but it seems we're running out. BTW: L563 was found in Creer's WTY.

-Kai

Maybe it'll turn out to be the Isle of Man SNP, since that's where Creer's mdka came from.

I'll probably test for it eventually, if I do actually get a DF41+ result, as well as L744/L746 and L745.



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Heber on September 02, 2012, 08:57:13 AM
According to FTDNA draft y tree a total of 101 men have been tested of which 20 are derived. I assume this includes some of the L744/L746 folks, I had sponsor one of them to test DF41 when I was in process of getting it added to the ISOGG tree.

The other relevant stats are:

L744: 20 derived / 183 tested
L746: 20 derived / 420 tested
L745: 19 derived / 177 tested

L563: 3 derived / 245 tested

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813501

-Paul
(DF41+)

If we look at the surnames positive for DF41+, many can be traced to Scotland (Galloway, Argyl, Hebrides) including Duffy (MacFie), Stevens (McTavish), McBurney, McCown, Cannon.
Most of these trace their clan affiliations to Dal Riadia Genealogies.
IF we then look at the surrounding DF13 with clades greater than 5% (DF41 is 3%) we get a dominantly Gaelic signature.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763689694/

If this is correct it raises the interesting case of the Stewart Royal Line (FitzAlen) downstream of DF41 (L744,L745,L746) could have Gaelic blood lines after all.


I'm interested in your view that the surname Stevens is connected to Clan McTavish, Heber. I'm not sure that's right in my particular case, although I would be mightily pleased if it were. My matches seem to point to the West Midlands of England, but admittedly most of them can't get their y lines out of North America. I do have a solid 65/67 match with a man whose family came from Shropshire near the Welsh border. He himself was born in Worcester. That match is the biggest clue I have, although we don't share the same surname. He has no matches in his own surname project, however. Most of his closest matches are Stevenses and Stephenses.

A funny coincidence regarding DF41 is that one of my 2nd great grandmothers was a Stewart, and I have a bunch of the L745+ Stewarts as Family Finder matches.


Rich,
On the Clan McTavish official site:

CLAN FAMILY NAMES: Cash, Holmes, Kash, MacCamish, MacCash, MacCavish, MacComb, MacCombie, MacComich, MacComish, MaComie, Macomie, MacCosh, MacLaws, MacElhose, MacLehose, MacTavish, McTavish, Mactavish, Mactavis, M'Tavish, MacTeague, MacThomas, Stephens, Stephenson, Stevens, Stevenson, Tavish, Tawesson, Teague, Thom, Thomas, Thomason, Thomasson, Thompson, Thomson, Tod, and Todd, and all variant spellings are welcome to join us in celebrating our shared Scottish Highlands heritage.  More information on clan names . . .

Their Clan History is here...
http://www.clanmactavish.org/pages/history.php

"Names, variant names, and septs for Clan MacTavish include Cash, MacCash, MacCavish, MacLehose, MacSteaphain, MacTavish, MacThom, MacThomas, Stephen(son), Steven(son), Tais, Taws, Taweson, Thom, Thomas, Thomason, Thompson, Thomson, Tod(d) and all variant spellings."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacTavish

Of course there is no guarantee that your specific Stevens line is related to the McTavish Clan, however it is an interesting possibility.







Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 02, 2012, 12:25:30 PM
According to FTDNA draft y tree a total of 101 men have been tested of which 20 are derived. I assume this includes some of the L744/L746 folks, I had sponsor one of them to test DF41 when I was in process of getting it added to the ISOGG tree.

The other relevant stats are:

L744: 20 derived / 183 tested
L746: 20 derived / 420 tested
L745: 19 derived / 177 tested

L563: 3 derived / 245 tested

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813501

-Paul
(DF41+)

If we look at the surnames positive for DF41+, many can be traced to Scotland (Galloway, Argyl, Hebrides) including Duffy (MacFie), Stevens (McTavish), McBurney, McCown, Cannon.
Most of these trace their clan affiliations to Dal Riadia Genealogies.
IF we then look at the surrounding DF13 with clades greater than 5% (DF41 is 3%) we get a dominantly Gaelic signature.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763689694/

If this is correct it raises the interesting case of the Stewart Royal Line (FitzAlen) downstream of DF41 (L744,L745,L746) could have Gaelic blood lines after all.


There are fairly large Genetic Distances between DF41+ clusters. For example I have a GD of 20 @67 with Chris who is 1426c (Galloway origin). Likewise with MacMillian (Hebridies) I have a GD of 18 @67. DF41 is old, it well predates surname formation in either Ireland or Scotland, probably on order of at least 1,000 years.

Actually I be interested in seeing what GD I have with Rich and Cooper. With them added in it looks like DF41 is considerably older then we thought or so my reading of Mark (Jost) TMRCA calculations go.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 02, 2012, 02:17:41 PM
@Paul

If you want to check genetic distances, my Ysearch ID is HX9ZF. Cooper's is 4BN3G.

Another member of our cluster, Self, Ysearch 54XP8, kit 53479, just joined the R-L21 Plus Project. He has DF41 on order now. I went ahead and put Self in the DF41+ category because he is a 66/67 match to Cooper.

Another likely DF41+ just joined the project: Walker, kit 240201. His entry is in the "Test Results Pending" category.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 02, 2012, 03:06:37 PM
@Paul

If you want to check genetic distances, my Ysearch ID is HX9ZF. Cooper's is 4BN3G.

Another member of our cluster, Self, Ysearch 54XP8, kit 53479, just joined the R-L21 Plus Project. He has DF41 on order now. I went ahead and put Self in the DF41+ category because he is a 66/67 match to Cooper.

Another likely DF41+ just joined the project: Walker, kit 240201. His entry is in the "Test Results Pending" category.

Nice alright well comparing my kit to Cooper's using ysearch (PP38U) I see a GD of 30 @ 67 markers! This is I think the highest GD I've seen with any other DF41+ person.

Regarding earlier post on percentages, I could be wrong but I believe the anonymous researcher who found DF41 in the 1000 genomes samples is reported to have said that DF41+ made up about 5% of L21+ samples.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Heber on September 02, 2012, 03:26:49 PM
@Paul

If you want to check genetic distances, my Ysearch ID is HX9ZF. Cooper's is 4BN3G.

Another member of our cluster, Self, Ysearch 54XP8, kit 53479, just joined the R-L21 Plus Project. He has DF41 on order now. I went ahead and put Self in the DF41+ category because he is a 66/67 match to Cooper.

Another likely DF41+ just joined the project: Walker, kit 240201. His entry is in the "Test Results Pending" category.

Nice alright well comparing my kit to Cooper's using ysearch (PP38U) I see a GD of 30 @ 67 markers! This is I think the highest GD I've seen with any other DF41+ person.

Regarding earlier post on percentages, I could be wrong but I believe the anonymous researcher who found DF41 in the 1000 genomes samples is reported to have said that DF41+ made up about 5% of L21+ samples.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Here is a good analysis of DF41.

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L21/Analysis/R_L21_Analysis_DF41.html

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L21/Analysis/R_L21_Analysis_L744.html


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 02, 2012, 08:54:31 PM
Another of my cluster brothers, Webb, kit 163684, has ordered DF41.

I sent out a bulk email to the DF13+ members of the R-L21 Plus Project who don't yet have a subclade and have not yet tested for DF41 urging them to test for it. The response has been excellent thus far. There are a lot of new DF41 test orders in time to go to the lab this Wednesday.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 02, 2012, 09:01:56 PM
@Paul

If you want to check genetic distances, my Ysearch ID is HX9ZF. Cooper's is 4BN3G.

Another member of our cluster, Self, Ysearch 54XP8, kit 53479, just joined the R-L21 Plus Project. He has DF41 on order now. I went ahead and put Self in the DF41+ category because he is a 66/67 match to Cooper.

Another likely DF41+ just joined the project: Walker, kit 240201. His entry is in the "Test Results Pending" category.

Nice alright well comparing my kit to Cooper's using ysearch (PP38U) I see a GD of 30 @ 67 markers! This is I think the highest GD I've seen with any other DF41+ person.

Regarding earlier post on percentages, I could be wrong but I believe the anonymous researcher who found DF41 in the 1000 genomes samples is reported to have said that DF41+ made up about 5% of L21+ samples.

-Paul
(DF41+)

That's not too bad. How many L21+ samples did they have?

I think Casey's analysis (at the links posted by Heber above) may be a little dated now, even though he published it in July of this year. DF41 may be older and bigger than he thought, since he based his ideas on what was known then.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 02, 2012, 09:40:08 PM
Here's something I noticed: all but one of the guys in the DF41+ category have 534<=14, yet all of those who are L744+, including the L745+ guys, have 534>=15.

I don't know how significant that is.

MacMillan, kit 47694, is the one guy in the DF41+ category who has 534=15. If he tests L744+, that would be interesting.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Heber on September 03, 2012, 03:57:24 AM
Here's something I noticed: all but one of the guys in the DF41+ category have 534<=14, yet all of those who are L744+, including the L745+ guys, have 534>=15.

I don't know how significant that is.

MacMillan, kit 47694, is the one guy in the DF41+ category who has 534=15. If he tests L744+, that would be interesting.

The McMillans were another great Gaelic Clan from the Hebrides, their name meaning "son of the monk".

"The MacMillans are one of a number of clans - including the MacKinnons, the MacQuarries, and the MacPhees - descended from Airbertach, a Hebridean prince of the old royal house of Moray who according to one account was the great-grandson of King Macbeth."
"Bishop Cormac's son Gilchrist or, in Gaelic, Gille Chrisosd, the prognenitor of the Clann an Mhaoil, was a religious man like his father; and it was because of this that he wore the tonsure which gave him the nickname Maolan or Gillemaol. As a Columban priest, his head would have been shaved over the front of his head in the style of St. John, rather than at the vertex of head (the dominant style in The Church of Rome). This distinctive tonsure is described in Gaelic as 'Mhaoillan'. The name MacMillan thus literally means, "son of the tonsure"."

It will be facinating to see how all of these Clan relationships stack up with further testing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacMillan


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 03, 2012, 05:17:14 AM
Another of my cluster brothers, Webb, kit 163684, has ordered DF41.

I sent out a bulk email to the DF13+ members of the R-L21 Plus Project who don't yet have a subclade and have not yet tested for DF41 urging them to test for it. The response has been excellent thus far. There are a lot of new DF41 test orders in time to go to the lab this Wednesday.

That's great to hear. I see Alex Williamson has posted a new Neighbour-joining (NJ) tree, interesting growth in DF41 "sub-tree", parts of it I'm quite dubious about.

See: http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/Files/R-L21%20Tree%2020120830.pdf

For example it seems to pull in a number of men who belong to following of Mikewww's clusters

  • 13-1511A-T2 -- Irish Type II -- think they are DF41-
  • 253-1711*/ 253-1716 -- I'm assuming these should test for Z253
  • 49-23-2123 -- DF49+/DF23+ perhaps?

I would imagine the only way to get better picture is to get more of the people in that NJ tree to test DF41, a DF41- result is just as informative as a DF41+ result that's for sure.

Anyways some interesting ones that should probably order DF41

N42297 Issemann (France) -- appears to cluster with MacMillian who is DF41+ , is in the L21 project
122895 Dane -- appears to cluser with MacMillian and Issemann, also in L21 project

Nearby is also 208773 Reith (Germany) however his "cluster label" is [21-314-P*] (implies DF21?), he is DF13+ tested and in L21 project.

Over beside me (Duffy -- 176148) I see N91203 Tawier (England) and N26237 Lurvey, both are also in L21 project.

I think the approach to take is to "nibble" along the edges and try and get men who are close to confirmed DF41+ men to test, the more of these we get the higher my confidence in any future NJ trees will be.

-Paul
DF41+


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 03, 2012, 06:17:20 AM
There are now 30 orders for DF41 on my "Pending Shipment to Lab" page.

MacMillan has ordered L744, so we'll get a chance to see if 534>=15 within DF41 means L744+.

When I get the chance, I will urge those other guys mentioned by Paul above to test for DF41.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 03, 2012, 06:22:18 AM
There are now 30 orders for DF41 on my "Pending Shipment to Lab" page.

. . .

In addition, there are eight DF41 orders on my "Pending Lab Results" page.

The "Pending Shipment to Lab" orders go to FTDNA's Houston lab this coming Wednesday. The "Pending Lab Results" orders are already there.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: k.o.gran on September 03, 2012, 06:42:15 AM
I see Alex Williamson has posted a new Neighbour-joining (NJ) tree, interesting growth in DF41 "sub-tree", parts of it I'm quite dubious about.

See: http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/Files/R-L21%20Tree%2020120830.pdf

For example it seems to pull in a number of men who belong to following of Mikewww's clusters

  • 13-1511A-T2 -- Irish Type II -- think they are DF41-
  • 253-1711*/ 253-1716 -- I'm assuming these should test for Z253
  • 49-23-2123 -- DF49+/DF23+ perhaps?

I would imagine the only way to get better picture is to get more of the people in that NJ tree to test DF41, a DF41- result is just as informative as a DF41+ result that's for sure.

Paul,

The topmost part of the DF41 tree seems to be grouped there based on similarities with the L744 people. I'm talking about from N65343 Carroll to 88876 Kepler. There are a lot of long horizontal lines here, which tells me to be a bit careful with these suggestions. A DF41 test of one of these people would probably help sort this out in the next tree. A positive result would prove the grouping is correct, a negative result would move these people away from the DF41 page (if I understand the NJ tree correctly).

The two-person 2517 variety seems interesting, if I was one of those, I would absolutely try a DF41 test.
The 2323 variety is very interesting. This is the variety of L564. They should absolutely test for DF41 to try to get into the same "cloud" as L563 on Mike's haplotree.

I see that variety 41-1411 has been split into DF13 and DF41 on the newest NJ. Hall of that variety has DF41 pending, so we'll soon know where he belongs.

-Kai

Edit: I see that you wrote a very similar message to me on the yahoo forums. We seem to agree on these things. :)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: df.reynolds on September 03, 2012, 06:47:53 AM
..
That's great to hear. I see Alex Williamson has posted a new Neighbour-joining (NJ) tree, interesting growth in DF41 "sub-tree", parts of it I'm quite dubious about.
...
Nearby is also 208773 Reith (Germany) however his "cluster label" is [21-314-P*] (implies DF21?), he is DF13+ tested and in L21 project.
...
I think the approach to take is to "nibble" along the edges and try and get men who are close to confirmed DF41+ men to test, the more of these we get the higher my confidence in any future NJ trees will be.

-Paul
DF41+
Whether you are looking at MikeW's variety assignments, or the NJ diagrams done by Alex, "Identical by State" versus "Identical by Descent" leads to those dubious areas on the diagram and conflicting information. Reith is a good case in point. I can see why Mike assigned him to 21-314-P, but Reith is an outlier, so in his case, very much a speculative variety. I'd be kind of surprised if he tested DF21+ P314.2+; I don't know what the odds are for DF41, that is certainly speculative as well, but is probably just as likely as DF21.

I would agree that nibbling away around the edges is a good approach.

Regards,
david


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 03, 2012, 07:32:20 AM
It's an interesting tree. I noticed Hamon of France, kit 84034, is in the DF41 section (which starts on page 85), as is Hebert of France, kit 4568. Hamon posts here.

Hebert is somewhat of an outlier relative to my cluster, so a DF41 test in his case would be interesting for me, with the added bonus that he is French.

Hamon's DF41 result would be interesting, too, since I know him, via email and this forum, at least, and he, too, is French.

It is interesting that at least one of the members of my cluster (I won't reveal who because I don't have his permission to do that) has a "100% French" result on the Population Finder portion of his Family Finder results. I realize, of course, that autosomal results can be totally unrelated to y-dna results, but it's still interesting.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 03, 2012, 07:38:09 AM
I put in a request to FTDNA to setup a "DF41 & Subclades" project. Mentioned 5 working days so probably won't hear anything back this week ;-)

There a number of German's in that tree, obviously getting a DF41 result (+ or -) for some of them will help in long run. By getting 30 people to order there you'll probably increase the number of men who have tested for DF41 by about a 1/3rd!

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 03, 2012, 07:55:25 AM
I put in a request to FTDNA to setup a "DF41 & Subclades" project. Mentioned 5 working days so probably won't hear anything back this week ;-)

There a number of German's in that tree, obviously getting a DF41 result (+ or -) for some of them will help in long run. By getting 30 people to order there you'll probably increase the number of men who have tested for DF41 by about a 1/3rd!

-Paul
(DF41+)

I'll join your project as soon as I get a DF41+ result, if I get a DF41+ result. I know the likelihood is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 99%, but, well, "there's a lot of slip 'twixt the cup and the lip", as the old folks used to say.

I've emailed Hamon, Hebert, and Iseman regarding DF41.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 03, 2012, 08:20:50 AM
I've emailed Dane, Lurvey, and Thayer ("Tawier"), as well.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 03, 2012, 08:32:26 AM
Okay, I've emailed Wright ("Reith"), as well.

I think that about does it for now.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 03, 2012, 09:31:18 AM
Kai,

Thanks for pointing out about 2323 variety, I see that two of members of it are both confirmed as L564+, these been Daniel (9875) and Foerstner (105946). Both are these are in L21 project, it would be interesting to get one of them to test for DF41 that's for sure.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: df.reynolds on September 03, 2012, 07:05:57 PM
Kai,

Thanks for pointing out about 2323 variety, I see that two of members of it are both confirmed as L564+, these been Daniel (9875) and Foerstner (105946). Both are these are in L21 project, it would be interesting to get one of them to test for DF41 that's for sure.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Daniel is well tested. Would be great if he would order both DF41 and DF49, if both were negative, then the cluster would be DF13**. And if not, then L564 moves to a better home.

--david


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 03, 2012, 07:38:55 PM
Kai,

Thanks for pointing out about 2323 variety, I see that two of members of it are both confirmed as L564+, these been Daniel (9875) and Foerstner (105946). Both are these are in L21 project, it would be interesting to get one of them to test for DF41 that's for sure.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Daniel is well tested. Would be great if he would order both DF41 and DF49, if both were negative, then the cluster would be DF13**. And if not, then L564 moves to a better home.

--david

Coincidentally, he has both of those on order, in batch 479, due 17 October.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 03, 2012, 07:51:12 PM
Thayer (Tawier), kit N91203, has ordered DF41. He seemed excited about it. Hope he gets a positive result.

Dane, kit 122895, sent me an email in response to mine, asking some questions about DF41. Maybe he'll order it, too.

I count 36 DF41 orders in "Pending Shipment to Lab", plus the eight already in "Pending Lab Results".

Not bad.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 03, 2012, 07:54:55 PM
Thayer (Tawier), kit N91203, has ordered DF41. He seemed excited about it. Hope he gets a positive result.

Dane, kit 122895, sent me an email in response to mine, asking some questions about DF41. Maybe he'll order it, too.

I count 36 DF41 orders in "Pending Shipment to Lab", plus the eight already in "Pending Lab Results".

Not bad.

Wright (Reith), kit 208773, just ordered DF41, so make that 37 DF41 orders in "Pending Shipment to Lab".


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 04, 2012, 04:01:46 AM
Nice, from looking at Ireland project I see the following:
  • 1 pending -- Erwin, close match to Stewarts but L744-/L746-/L745-
  • 3 pending delivery to lab -- probably some overlap with those in L21 project

I wouldn't be surprised if this is most action in short period that one SNP has seen in FTDNA order log since at least DF13 or DF63 came available.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 04, 2012, 07:49:09 AM
I hope we get a fair number of positives out of it. I kind of feel bad when I recommend a test to members, and they spend their hard-earned money for it, only to get a negative result. Of course, in every bulk email I always tell them there is no guarantee of a positive result.

This bunch should go to the lab sometime tomorrow. Hopefully the results won't take long.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: OConnor on September 04, 2012, 08:37:52 AM
has there been no DF41+ found in any Scandinavian countries?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 04, 2012, 10:35:55 AM
I hope we get a fair number of positives out of it. I kind of feel bad when I recommend a test to members, and they spend their hard-earned money for it, only to get a negative result. Of course, in every bulk email I always tell them there is no guarantee of a positive result.

This bunch should go to the lab sometime tomorrow. Hopefully the results won't take long.

I don't think there is any reason to feel bad about recommending testing for an subclade like this that they might be positive for. There are also success stories, like Cooper or Duffy on DF41, as well as negative hits. We don't know until we test.

What I feel bad about is when people test for things they can't be positive for. I just saw an order for one of these SNPs for an L513+ person that I know they can't have. I try to catch those and I try to provide education as much as I can, but it still seems to happen anyway.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 04, 2012, 11:34:30 AM
I do, too. I sent that bulk email only to the DF13+ category that has not tested positive for any downstream SNP yet. I missed something, though. I left the L555+ guys in that group, and one of them ordered DF41. As soon as I saw it, I emailed him and advised him to cancel the order, which he did.



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 04, 2012, 11:36:24 AM
has there been no DF41+ found in any Scandinavian countries?

Nope, no non-Brits or non-Irish at all yet, although I expect there to be some. I don't know about Scandinavians. I do think we'll bag some French DF41s, though.



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 05, 2012, 08:36:54 PM
Batch 480 is the batch to watch for DF41, with results due 24 October 2012.

There are 42 DF41 tests in that batch.

Not bad!


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 05, 2012, 08:41:56 PM
Batch 480 is the batch to watch for DF41, with results due 24 October 2012.

There are 42 DF41 tests in that batch.

Not bad!


I meant to say there are 42 DF41 tests on members of the R-L21 Plus Project in Batch 480.

There could be a few more from outside the project, as well, I guess.

My own DF41 test is in Batch 480.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 06, 2012, 05:05:22 AM
In a signal batch we'll increase the number of DF41 testers in FTDNA by close on 40% now that's impressive. It's gonna be a interesting couple of weeks that's for sure!

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 06, 2012, 06:46:58 AM
In a signal batch we'll increase the number of DF41 testers in FTDNA by close on 40% now that's impressive. It's gonna be a interesting couple of weeks that's for sure!

-Paul
(DF41+)

Yes, and there were already eight DF41 tests in Pending Lab Results before Batch 480 went in, so that makes 50. In addition, two more orders for DF41 have come in since 480 became a batch, but they are too late for this week and won't go to the lab until next Wednesday (Batch 481, I guess).

I am really excited about this. I would like to see more discussion of it, but I realize as we narrow down our SNPs, we involve fewer and fewer people.

Nobody commented on my earlier post about all but one of the current DF41+ guys having 534<=14. All of the L744+ guys, including those who are L745+, have 534>=15. I wonder if that has any significance or offers us any kind of clue in detecting potential DF41+ folks. The one DF41+ guy with 534=15 is MacMillan, and he has ordered L744.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 07, 2012, 07:52:37 AM
Hall, kit 92380, is DF41+. I don't know yet to which of Mike's clusters he belongs, but he has 534=14, which is apparently the modal for DF41 (xL744).

Daniels came up DF41- and DF49-.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 07, 2012, 12:01:16 PM
I would imagine one STR alone won't be enough to detect, still it's interesting way both McMillian and the Stewarts come back at 15, it could be due to "parallel evolution" or it may show a deeper connection between the two.

Regarding Hall, I see from the Alex Williamson tree that he belongs to variety:
[41-1411], interesting enough there is a Dwyer nearby to him. Will have to see if I can get him to order DF41.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 07, 2012, 03:12:45 PM
I would imagine one STR alone won't be enough to detect, still it's interesting way both McMillian and the Stewarts come back at 15, it could be due to "parallel evolution" or it may show a deeper connection between the two.

Regarding Hall, I see from the Alex Williamson tree that he belongs to variety:
[41-1411], interesting enough there is a Dwyer nearby to him. Will have to see if I can get him to order DF41.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I don't know. Sometimes one str can be pretty reliable. Not 100%, certainly, but maybe still a pretty good indicator. Taken 492=13 for U106, for example, and 481=25 for M222. They are strong clues, though not infallible.

I'm not saying 534 is definitely like that, but as time goes on it might be worthwhile to monitor 534<=14 and see what percentage of those L21+ guys who have it turn out to be DF41+.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 07, 2012, 05:35:42 PM
I've setup a R-DF41 project on FTDNA. It's fairly bare bones at the moment, I will admit I did rip off the R-DF21 project, as they say "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery", I do see the DF21 project as been a role-model and hopefully we can follow in their footsteps in providing a useful resource for men who are DF41+

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF41

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Jdean on September 07, 2012, 06:50:14 PM
I've setup a R-DF41 project on FTDNA. It's fairly bare bones at the moment, I will admit I did rip off the R-DF21 project, as they say "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery", I do see the DF21 project as been a role-model and hopefully we can follow in their footsteps in providing a useful resource for men who are DF41+

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF41

-Paul
(DF41+)

Good news !!

If you add DF41 and any other pertinent SNP names to the 'surnames' tab in your GAP settings this will allow people to find the project via a search from their FTDNA page, it doesn't work from FTDNA's main page though.

You can find this under 'PROJECT ADMINISTRATION' and then ' Project Profile'


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: df.reynolds on September 07, 2012, 07:24:12 PM
I've setup a R-DF41 project on FTDNA. It's fairly bare bones at the moment, I will admit I did rip off the R-DF21 project, as they say "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery", I do see the DF21 project as been a role-model and hopefully we can follow in their footsteps in providing a useful resource for men who are DF41+

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF41

-Paul
(DF41+)

Thank you. :)

Much of what I did with the DF21 project was heavily influenced by what Rich had done with the L21 project and Charles Moore's work with the U106 project.

--david


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 07, 2012, 07:32:32 PM
Thank you, David. And I've got to admit I was heavily influenced by Charles Moore myself. He has really upgraded the R1b-U106 Research Project. It used to be all geographic, and that was okay when U106+ was as far as things went. Same with L21. A geographic emphasis was fine before things got broken down into so many different subclades.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 07, 2012, 07:48:46 PM
I've setup a R-DF41 project on FTDNA. It's fairly bare bones at the moment, I will admit I did rip off the R-DF21 project, as they say "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery", I do see the DF21 project as been a role-model and hopefully we can follow in their footsteps in providing a useful resource for men who are DF41+

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF41

-Paul
(DF41+)

I sent out a bulk email to the DF41+ guys asking them to join your project. FTDNA has to approve it first, but it should go out tomorrow.

Hope I get a DF41+ result soon, so I can join, too.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 08, 2012, 07:38:20 PM
Here's an update on DF41 testing from the R-L21 Plus Project. There are currently 47 DF41 tests on my "Pending Lab Results" page and 5 on my "Pending Shipment to Lab" page. In other words, we can expect to see at least 52 new DF41 test results in the next few weeks.

There are some continental DF41 tests to watch for:

Hebert, kit 4568 - France
Hamon, kit 84034 - France
Chartier, kit N54989 - France
Moreno, kit 131334 - Spain
Escalante, kit N10695 - Spain
Snyder, kit 98020 - Germany
Reith, kit 208773 - Germany
Krueger, kit 140503 - Germany
Vennemoe, kit 229805 - Norway
Erickson, kit N5620 - Sweden

Should be interesting.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 08, 2012, 08:15:35 PM
If my personal observation that 534<=14 might be an indicator of DF41+ status means anything, then the following folks awaiting DF41 test results should have an advantage:

Chartier, kit N54989
Dugger, kit 85107
Hosie, kit 84796
MacPhee, kit 145001
McDonald, kit 104528
Rose, kit 32119 (L513+, should not have ordered DF41)
Self, kit 53479
Stevens, kit 59080
Thayer, kit N91203
Walker, kit 240201
Warren, kit N55401
Webb, kit 163684
White, kit 21834 (L513+, should not have ordered DF41)

It should be interesting to see how those turn out, and if 534<=14 holds up as the modal for DF41 (xL744).

Of course, Stevens is me. Self, Webb, and I are in a cluster that has one DF41+ result already, so we should be DF41+. Walker's cluster already has a number of DF41+ results.

The rest, however, are pretty much shots in the dark, although Thayer and Dugger are in the DF41+ section of Alex Williamson's Neighbor-Joining tree at the link posted by Paul earlier in this thread.

I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that most of those above get a DF41+ result. It should be fun to see whether or not I am right.

Note: List above edited 11 Sep 2012 to eliminate the two L513s who should not have ordered DF41.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 09, 2012, 08:04:40 PM
If my personal observation that 534<=14 might be an indicator of DF41+ status means anything, then the following folks awaiting DF41 test results should have an advantage:

Chartier, kit N54989
Dugger, kit 85107
Hosie, kit 84796
MacPhee, kit 145001
McDonald, kit 104528
Rose, kit 32119
Self, kit 53479
Stevens, kit 59080
Thayer, kit N91203
Walker, kit 240201
Warren, kit N55401
Webb, kit 163684
White, kit 21834

It should be interesting to see how those turn out, and if 534<=14 holds up as the modal for DF41 (xL744).

Of course, Stevens is me. Self, Webb, and I are in a cluster that has one DF41+ result already, so we should be DF41+. Walker's cluster already has a number of DF41+ results.

The rest, however, are pretty much shots in the dark, although Thayer and Dugger are in the DF41+ section of Alex Williamson's Neighbor-Joining tree at the link posted by Paul earlier in this thread.

I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that most of those above get a DF41+ result. It should be fun to see whether or not I am right.




I guess no one wants to talk about DF41 but me. I was hoping to get some comments on what I wrote above. Agree? Disagree?



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 09, 2012, 08:51:11 PM
What about Richard Scott, the 10th Duke of Buccleuch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Scott,_10th_Duke_of_Buccleuch) and his DF41+ L744+ L745+ results?

Can Paul get him to test with FTDNA and join the new R-DF41 and Subclades Project? ;-)

Let us know how your visits with the Duke at Drumlanrig Castle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drumlanrig_Castle) go, Paul!


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on September 09, 2012, 08:53:24 PM
If my personal observation that 534<=14 might be an indicator of DF41+ status means anything, then the following folks awaiting DF41 test results should have an advantage:

Chartier, kit N54989
Dugger, kit 85107
Hosie, kit 84796
MacPhee, kit 145001
McDonald, kit 104528
Rose, kit 32119
Self, kit 53479
Stevens, kit 59080
Thayer, kit N91203
Walker, kit 240201
Warren, kit N55401
Webb, kit 163684
White, kit 21834

It should be interesting to see how those turn out, and if 534<=14 holds up as the modal for DF41 (xL744).

Of course, Stevens is me. Self, Webb, and I are in a cluster that has one DF41+ result already, so we should be DF41+. Walker's cluster already has a number of DF41+ results.

The rest, however, are pretty much shots in the dark, although Thayer and Dugger are in the DF41+ section of Alex Williamson's Neighbor-Joining tree at the link posted by Paul earlier in this thread.

I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that most of those above get a DF41+ result. It should be fun to see whether or not I am right.




I guess no one wants to talk about DF41 but me. I was hoping to get some comments on what I wrote above. Agree? Disagree?



OK, I will take pity on you. LOL
I am a member of a group of 9 folks with a GD of 5 or less at Y67. We all match 6 of 6 of the DF41 signature, and two have tested positive so far. We all are 534 = 14.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 09, 2012, 09:00:01 PM
If my personal observation that 534<=14 might be an indicator of DF41+ status means anything, then the following folks awaiting DF41 test results should have an advantage:

Chartier, kit N54989
Dugger, kit 85107
Hosie, kit 84796
MacPhee, kit 145001
McDonald, kit 104528
Rose, kit 32119
Self, kit 53479
Stevens, kit 59080
Thayer, kit N91203
Walker, kit 240201
Warren, kit N55401
Webb, kit 163684
White, kit 21834

It should be interesting to see how those turn out, and if 534<=14 holds up as the modal for DF41 (xL744).

Of course, Stevens is me. Self, Webb, and I are in a cluster that has one DF41+ result already, so we should be DF41+. Walker's cluster already has a number of DF41+ results.

The rest, however, are pretty much shots in the dark, although Thayer and Dugger are in the DF41+ section of Alex Williamson's Neighbor-Joining tree at the link posted by Paul earlier in this thread.

I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that most of those above get a DF41+ result. It should be fun to see whether or not I am right.




I guess no one wants to talk about DF41 but me. I was hoping to get some comments on what I wrote above. Agree? Disagree?



OK, I will take pity on you. LOL
I am a member of a group of 9 folks with a GD of 5 or less at Y67. We all match 6 of 6 of the DF41 signature, and two have tested positive so far. We all are 534 = 14.


Hi, Larry! Thanks for taking pity on me! :-)

So far my cluster has just one DF41+, but he is the only member of our cluster with a DF41 result, so I am cautiously optimistic about my own chances, since I believe our cluster is only about one third the age of DF41.

I do think Paul should try to talk the Duke of Buccleuch into transferring his results over to FTDNA and joining the project. ;-)



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Heber on September 10, 2012, 01:50:18 AM
What about Richard Scott, the 10th Duke of Buccleuch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Scott,_10th_Duke_of_Buccleuch) and his DF41+ L744+ L745+ results?

Can Paul get him to test with FTDNA and join the new R-DF41 and Subclades Project? ;-)

Let us know how your visits with the Duke at Drumlanrig Castle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drumlanrig_Castle) go, Paul!

I understand Richard Scott the Duke of  Buccleuch is descended from Clan Scott.

"One of the most powerful of the Border families, the name was derived from the Scots who invaded Dalriada (Argyll) from Ireland and the surname is found in all parts of Scotland. However in the Borders, an area that was never fully Gaelic speaking, it may have meant a Scottish Gaelic speaker."

However I also believe he is part of the Stewart cluster DF41+ L744+ L745+ claiming descent from the Royal Stewart line. Can anyone explain the connection.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 10, 2012, 07:34:25 AM
What about Richard Scott, the 10th Duke of Buccleuch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Scott,_10th_Duke_of_Buccleuch) and his DF41+ L744+ L745+ results?

Can Paul get him to test with FTDNA and join the new R-DF41 and Subclades Project? ;-)

Let us know how your visits with the Duke at Drumlanrig Castle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drumlanrig_Castle) go, Paul!

I understand Richard Scott the Duke of  Buccleuch is descended from Clan Scott.

"One of the most powerful of the Border families, the name was derived from the Scots who invaded Dalriada (Argyll) from Ireland and the surname is found in all parts of Scotland. However in the Borders, an area that was never fully Gaelic speaking, it may have meant a Scottish Gaelic speaker."

However I also believe he is part of the Stewart cluster DF41+ L744+ L745+ claiming descent from the Royal Stewart line. Can anyone explain the connection.


The 1st Duke of Buccleuch, James (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Scott,_1st_Duke_of_Monmouth), as the illegitmate son of Charles II and his mistress, Lucy Walter, took his wife's surname, which was Scott. In his y-dna line, Richard Scott, the 10th and current Duke of Buccleuch, is a Stewart, not a Scott, even though he is currently the Clan Scott Chief (go figure).


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 10, 2012, 07:57:01 AM
Well, I guess the obvious answer to my "go figure" above is that Richard Scott has a connection to Clan Scott by descent from Anne Scott, the wife of James, the 1st Duke of Buccleuch, who is his y-dna ancestor.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 10, 2012, 01:13:57 PM
I believe there is also another "aristocratic" line that was tested with connections to the Stewarts these also came up with L744+/L746+/L745+ but I could be wrong on this. I've been offline due to work emergency all weekend, so no visits to fancy castles for me just let anyways!

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 10, 2012, 08:03:06 PM
I believe there is also another "aristocratic" line that was tested with connections to the Stewarts these also came up with L744+/L746+/L745+ but I could be wrong on this. I've been offline due to work emergency all weekend, so no visits to fancy castles for me just let anyways!

-Paul
(DF41+)

Well, if you do manage to finagle an invite to Drumlanrig Castle, see if you can get the Duke to sponsor an annual DF41 gathering, with food, beverages, Celtic music, and the like. ;-)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: k.o.gran on September 11, 2012, 06:58:46 AM
85107 - Dugger just tested DF41+. I initially contacted him in my research of L563. I've adviced him to join the DF41 project. :)

-Kai


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 11, 2012, 07:38:27 AM
If my personal observation that 534<=14 might be an indicator of DF41+ status means anything, then the following folks awaiting DF41 test results should have an advantage:

Chartier, kit N54989
Dugger, kit 85107
Hosie, kit 84796
MacPhee, kit 145001
McDonald, kit 104528
Rose, kit 32119
Self, kit 53479
Stevens, kit 59080
Thayer, kit N91203
Walker, kit 240201
Warren, kit N55401
Webb, kit 163684
White, kit 21834

It should be interesting to see how those turn out, and if 534<=14 holds up as the modal for DF41 (xL744).

Of course, Stevens is me. Self, Webb, and I are in a cluster that has one DF41+ result already, so we should be DF41+. Walker's cluster already has a number of DF41+ results.

The rest, however, are pretty much shots in the dark, although Thayer and Dugger are in the DF41+ section of Alex Williamson's Neighbor-Joining tree at the link posted by Paul earlier in this thread.

I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that most of those above get a DF41+ result. It should be fun to see whether or not I am right.



As Kai mentioned in his post, Dugger is DF41+. White and Rose, however, are DF41-. One thing I hadn't noticed before was that Rose and White had already tested L513+, so their DF41 tests were a waste of time and money. Had I noticed that when they ordered, I would have advised them to cancel the orders.

I guess I should stop assuming that people usually only order tests they have some chance of getting a positive hit on. When I sent out my bulk email on DF41, I addressed it only to the guys in the DF13+ but-still-looking category, not to any of the other categories.

When I went looking at the STRs of those who had ordered DF41, it didn't occur to me that I might be looking at some folks who should not have ordered it.



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 11, 2012, 07:46:59 AM
When I looked at Received Lab Results this morning and immediately saw some DF41 results, I was hoping mine might be among them, but no such luck. Anyway, most of the DF41 results are still pending. Just a few came in late last night.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 11, 2012, 11:30:59 AM
Good to hear that Dugger came back as DF41+, he's part of the same cluster as McCrere [41-1411]. From looking at Alex Willamson's tree it looks like quite an old branching moment between them.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: k.o.gran on September 11, 2012, 05:06:08 PM
Good to hear that Dugger came back as DF41+, he's part of the same cluster as McCrere [41-1411]. From looking at Alex Willamson's tree it looks like quite an old branching moment between them.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I'm also trying to get hold of Nuckolls in that variety to suggest a DF41 test possibly followed up by a L563 test if DF41 is positive. We're running out of options for getting L563 out of the private status. Dugger is L563-.

-Kai


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 11, 2012, 05:14:18 PM
Indeed well I agree the more of the 1411 we can get tested for DF41 the better, getting a positive result there will probably make several of them amiable to ordering L563. Even if L563 does turn out to be private it may be quite usefull for reasearch in genealogical timeframe for certain members of that cluster.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 13, 2012, 07:56:59 AM
Well, I was hoping to see some DF41 results this morning, especially my own, but no cigar. Sigh . . .

It's only been a week since Batch 480 went to the lab, but I've been spoiled by the rapid turnaround times of late.

Still waiting.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 13, 2012, 09:02:26 AM
Good to hear that Dugger came back as DF41+, he's part of the same cluster as McCrere [41-1411]. From looking at Alex Willamson's tree it looks like quite an old branching moment between them.

I'm also trying to get hold of Nuckolls in that variety to suggest a DF41 test possibly followed up by a L563 test if DF41 is positive. We're running out of options for getting L563 out of the private status. Dugger is L563-.

Has an L744+ person tested for L563 or is it on order for one of them?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: k.o.gran on September 13, 2012, 09:12:46 AM
Good to hear that Dugger came back as DF41+, he's part of the same cluster as McCrere [41-1411]. From looking at Alex Willamson's tree it looks like quite an old branching moment between them.

I'm also trying to get hold of Nuckolls in that variety to suggest a DF41 test possibly followed up by a L563 test if DF41 is positive. We're running out of options for getting L563 out of the private status. Dugger is L563-.

Has an L744+ person tested for L563 or is it on order for one of them?

According to your spredsheet, 143035 Stewart is L744+, L563-. This matches up with David's WTY PDF. :-)


-Kai


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 13, 2012, 12:09:04 PM
Good to hear that Dugger came back as DF41+, he's part of the same cluster as McCrere [41-1411]. From looking at Alex Willamson's tree it looks like quite an old branching moment between them.

I'm also trying to get hold of Nuckolls in that variety to suggest a DF41 test possibly followed up by a L563 test if DF41 is positive. We're running out of options for getting L563 out of the private status. Dugger is L563-.

Has an L744+ person tested for L563 or is it on order for one of them?

According to your spredsheet, 143035 Stewart is L744+, L563-. This matches up with David's WTY PDF. :-)


-Kai

Also just to complete the circle L563+ is confirmed as L744- (35212 -- Creer). The 1426c's are confirmed as L744-/L746- and L563- (29705 -- McCown)

Now we just have to wait on the big order results to start coming in.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 14, 2012, 04:05:21 AM
Well, I got my DF41+ result this morning, about a week after my kit went to the lab. My cluster brother Webb, kit 163684, also got a DF41+ result.

All the other DF41 results in the R-L21 Plus Project that I saw this morning were negative, unfortunately, but not all of the pending results have been posted yet.

I haven't had time yet to check much of anything else, because I am about to leave for work.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Jdean on September 14, 2012, 05:03:10 AM
Well, I got my DF41+ result this morning, about a week after my kit went to the lab. My cluster brother Webb, kit 163684, also got a DF41+ result.

All the other DF41 results in the R-L21 Plus Project that I saw this morning were negative, unfortunately, but not all of the pending results have been posted yet.

I haven't had time yet to check much of anything else, because I am about to leave for work.

Not unexpected of course, but good news nevertheless !!

I sure more positive results will be coming in shortly.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 14, 2012, 07:37:52 AM
Well, I got my DF41+ result this morning, about a week after my kit went to the lab. My cluster brother Webb, kit 163684, also got a DF41+ result.

All the other DF41 results in the R-L21 Plus Project that I saw this morning were negative, unfortunately, but not all of the pending results have been posted yet.

I haven't had time yet to check much of anything else, because I am about to leave for work.

Not unexpected of course, but good news nevertheless !!

I sure more positive results will be coming in shortly.

Thanks, Dave. It was welcome news to me, since I had a tiny sliver of doubt about the whole thing that is now dispelled.

Self hasn't received his DF41 result yet, and he should be positive. I don't know about the rest. Some of the ones I expected to be positive, like MacPhee and Hosie, are not, and my theory about 534<=14 as a good indicator of DF41+ status is in danger of going completely down the drain.

But that's okay. I and my little cluster are DF41+, and that's a good thing. It feels like turning off the main highway and down a pleasant, tree-lined country lane.

DF13, I hardly knew ye!



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 14, 2012, 09:44:26 AM
Congrats on the result Rich, it further confirms your cluster position within DF41. On other news interesting enough I see that Erwin (42048) who is very close to the Stewarts (7 @ 67 STR's) came back as DF41-!

Either a case of "convergent evolution" or there has been a mistake at the lab. Opinions?

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 14, 2012, 12:00:09 PM
Well, I got my DF41+ result this morning, about a week after my kit went to the lab. My cluster brother Webb, kit 163684, also got a DF41+ result.

All the other DF41 results in the R-L21 Plus Project that I saw this morning were negative, unfortunately, but not all of the pending results have been posted yet.

I haven't had time yet to check much of anything else, because I am about to leave for work.

Congrats Rich.  So, what individuals and clusters are DF41 so far?  Do the links fit what you thought or are they surprising?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 14, 2012, 03:16:01 PM
Well, I got my DF41+ result this morning, about a week after my kit went to the lab. My cluster brother Webb, kit 163684, also got a DF41+ result.

All the other DF41 results in the R-L21 Plus Project that I saw this morning were negative, unfortunately, but not all of the pending results have been posted yet.

I haven't had time yet to check much of anything else, because I am about to leave for work.

Congrats Rich.  So, what individuals and clusters are DF41 so far?  Do the links fit what you thought or are they surprising?

It surprised me. I fully expected to be DF13** before my cluster brother Cooper got his DF41+ result.

I'm not sure of the names of all of Mike's clusters. I think he calls mine 41-1123 (the 41 is for DF41+).

Of course, one of the interesting things is the celebrity aspect of DF41, since the Royal House of Stewart has been proven to be DF41+, but I doubt the Duke of Buccleuch will be inviting me to tea anytime soon (although I will accept if he reads this and decides to do so). The Stewarts are L744+ and L745+ in addition to being DF41+.

The DF41+ category is on the last page of y-dna results at the R-L21 Plus Project web site.

There are five who list Ireland as ancestral homeland, five who list Scotland, five who list "United Kingdom", and two who list England. One of those UK guys has ancestry on the Isle of Man. The rest, including me, list "Unknown Origin". There is a Williams in the R-DF41 Project who identifies Wales as his ancestral homeland, but he isn't in the R-L21 Plus Project or at least hasn't made it into the DF41+ category yet, anyway.

There is also a Welsh Thomas out there somewhere who is supposed to be L745+ without being a Stewart or having their haplotype.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 14, 2012, 03:24:05 PM
Congrats on the result Rich, it further confirms your cluster position within DF41. On other news interesting enough I see that Erwin (42048) who is very close to the Stewarts (7 @ 67 STR's) came back as DF41-!

Either a case of "convergent evolution" or there has been a mistake at the lab. Opinions?

-Paul
(DF41+)

That's a good question. I guess convergence might explain it.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Richard Rocca on September 14, 2012, 03:37:44 PM
Well, I got my DF41+ result this morning, about a week after my kit went to the lab. My cluster brother Webb, kit 163684, also got a DF41+ result.

All the other DF41 results in the R-L21 Plus Project that I saw this morning were negative, unfortunately, but not all of the pending results have been posted yet.

I haven't had time yet to check much of anything else, because I am about to leave for work.

Two levels shed in a matter of a few months? I'm jealous!!!

Congrats.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mark Jost on September 14, 2012, 06:03:31 PM
Congrats on the result Rich, it further confirms your cluster position within DF41. On other news interesting enough I see that Erwin (42048) who is very close to the Stewarts (7 @ 67 STR's) came back as DF41-!

Either a case of "convergent evolution" or there has been a mistake at the lab. Opinions?

-Paul
(DF41+)
Convergence, Exactly! I dont know if these others were considered or not but they are all on the same main branch.

Erwin 42028 is in the 1511 group out on a same twig with:
E11062 Tatard R-L21 1511 France,

a node back to another branch:
33413   Andersen(Nordland)   R-L21 1810 Norway,
N76294 Martinsen(Mosjøen) R-L21 1810,

yet another node (mv277) back:
N59178 Carroll R-L21/DF13* 13-1511A-T2-D Ireland,
139027 Ross R-L21 13-1511A-T2-D


at mv277 splits into anothe branch
21418 McRaney R-L21 13-1511A-T2-C Scotland
18569 White R-L21 13-1511A-T2-C zzCountry

and into mv272
88489 Heffernan R-L21 13-1511A-T2-C Ireland
121376 McCullar R-L21 13-1511A-T2-C Ireland

MJost


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mark Jost on September 14, 2012, 06:12:59 PM
Well, I got my DF41+ result this morning, about a week after my kit went to the lab. My cluster brother Webb, kit 163684, also got a DF41+ result.

All the other DF41 results in the R-L21 Plus Project that I saw this morning were negative, unfortunately, but not all of the pending results have been posted yet.

I haven't had time yet to check much of anything else, because I am about to leave for work.

Congrats!

Now I am depressed cuz I dont have a snp yet but hoping that when I do all my cluster matches back at least 1,500-2K ybp.

I will run a fluxus this weekend to see who begot whom.

MJost


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 14, 2012, 06:32:52 PM

Well, I got my DF41+ result this morning...

Congrats Rich.  So, what individuals and clusters are DF41 so far?  Do the links fit what you thought or are they surprising?

Congratulations, Rich. Whew! I was worried the last day or to it would come out negative somehow.

Here are the confirmed DF41+ individuals I can count so far:

f47694   MacMillan   R-L21/DF13/DF41*   41- unnassigned   Scotland, Outer Hebrides, Isle of Benbecula
f176148   Duffy   R-L21/DF13/DF41*   41-1013   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Belfast
f35550   Salmon   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1013   Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo
f57563   Cooper   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1123   UK
f59080   Stevens   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1123   zzzUnkOrigin
f163684   Webb   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1123   England
f85107   Dugger   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1411   zzzUnkOrigin
f92380   Hall   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1411   Ireland
f35212   McCrere   R-L21/DF13/DF41*   41-1411   Isle of Man (in Irish Sea near Scotland)
f38965   McCrere   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1411   UK
f55021   McCrere   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1411   UK
fN12980   Bratin   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Kilskeery Parish
f211437   Bratton   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Ireland
f103173   Cannon   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   England, London
f227064   Gordon   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Scotland
f156437   McBurney   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Scotland
f32434   Morrison   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Scotland
f4500   Wilson   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Ireland, Ulster
f20194   Wright   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Ireland
f1503   McCown   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C-A   Ireland
f29705   McCown   R-L21/DF13/DF41*   41-1426C-A   Ireland, Ulster
f78799   Smith   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C-A   UK
f239315   Thompson   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744   41-744- unassigned   England, North West, Merseyside, Liverpool
f75703   zzzUnk(Webb)   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744*   41-744- unassigned   England
f16895   Clancey   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   zzzUnkOrigin
f52758   Mitchell   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   Scotland
f35963   Pearce   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   UK
f143035   Stewart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Broughshane
f40333   Stewart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   Scotland
f110059   Stewart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   Scotland
f128499   Stewart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   Scotland, Argyllshire, Appin
fN53630   Stewart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   Scotland, Perthshire, Foss
f115205   Stewart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   UK
f64547   Stewart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   UK
f5603   Stewart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   zzzUnkOrigin
f48747   Stewart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   zzzUnkOrigin
fE15052   Stuart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   Ireland, Leinster, Dublin
f183344   Stuart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   Scotland
f147822   Stuart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   Scotland
f53238   Stuart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   zzzUnkOrigin
f148478   Thomas   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   Wales
f5987   zzzUnk(Stewart)   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   zzzUnkOrigin


Is f75703's MDKA's surname Webb?

The R1b-L21 Haplotypes file has just been updated and it includes all of the people in the varieties above along with the rest of L21.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Haplotypes.zip


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 14, 2012, 08:04:33 PM
Thanks, everyone! I really appreciate the congratulations and good wishes.

@Mike

Kit 75703 has the surname Webb himself but he apparently doesn't know who his mdka is. He is an Australian. I emailed him about joining the R-DF41 and Subclades Project, but he hasn't joined yet.

I wish we could get all of those confirmed DF41+ guys to join the R-L21 Plus Project and the R-DF41 and Subclades Project.



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 14, 2012, 08:08:39 PM
Well, I got my DF41+ result this morning, about a week after my kit went to the lab. My cluster brother Webb, kit 163684, also got a DF41+ result.

All the other DF41 results in the R-L21 Plus Project that I saw this morning were negative, unfortunately, but not all of the pending results have been posted yet.

I haven't had time yet to check much of anything else, because I am about to leave for work.

Two levels shed in a matter of a few months? I'm jealous!!!

Congrats.

It is pretty mind-bending. It seemed like I was R-M269* forever and then, beginning at the end of 2008, R-L21* forever. Finally, at the end of July, 2012, b*a*n*g!, I'm DF13+, and now,  b*a*n*g again!, I'm DF41+.

I am grateful to you and your 1000 Genomes compadres for the fine work uncovering these new SNPs.

THANKS!!!


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mark Jost on September 14, 2012, 08:54:31 PM
Here is the n=44 DF41 xStu 67 marker Fluxus

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNbUE3bWszX2h6YU0/edit

MJost


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: RickA on September 14, 2012, 09:56:02 PM
Congrats Rich. Glad to see your group has held together and seems to be reinforced with this new marker.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 14, 2012, 09:57:48 PM
Congrats Rich. Glad to see your group has held together and seems to be reinforced with this new marker.

Thanks, Rick. I remember from the old dna-forums days that you were the first to actually spot my cluster.



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mark Jost on September 15, 2012, 12:18:51 AM
Here is the n=44 DF41 xStu 67 marker Fluxus

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNbUE3bWszX2h6YU0/edit

MJost

I have now added STu's to this PDF.

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0By9Y3jb2fORNajQ1cG1VSHVyMlE

MJost


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mark Jost on September 15, 2012, 01:19:15 AM
Gen111T results at 67 markers

DF41 xStu
IntraClade Coalescence Age
Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   +-YBP   VARP   SD
76.9   25.6   2,308.3   768.2   9.0   3.0

Founder's Age
Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   +-YBP   Max   VAR   SD
78.7   25.9   2,361.9   777.1   3,139.0    9.2   3.0
(Note that Fluxus has a Rho of 18.3 (GD) with years at 3,174 +-431 Ybp)

DF41 All
IntraClade Coalescence Age
Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   +-YBP   VARP   SD
67.4   24.0   2,022.6   719.1   7.9   2.8

Founder's Age DF41 All
Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   +-YBP   Max   VAR   SD
68.1   24.1   2,041.9   722.5   2,764.5   8.0   2.8
(Note that Fluxus has a Rho of 20.0 (GD) years at 3,467 +-423 Ybp)


MJost


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 15, 2012, 04:32:56 AM
So, you have DF41 at just over 2,000 years old, but, given the margin of error, it's more accurate to say it's between 2,000 and 3,000 years old, correct?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mark Jost on September 15, 2012, 09:43:43 AM
So, you have DF41 at just over 2,000 years old, but, given the margin of error, it's more accurate to say it's between 2,000 and 3,000 years old, correct?
Yes the variance is a bit wider without the Stu's causing the age to be a bit higher. Founders age is what should be used due to missing and unknown Hts.

I noticed that when using 111 markers the age calculation provides a noticeble decrease in an age of a clade which I believe is a more accurate result. 111 markers should be the standard for dating clades.

MikeW's feature in his Gen Estimator Time chart shows the age in thousands.
DF41 All Founders Age

Midpt   2S max   1S max   1S min   2S min
2.0   3.5   2.8   1.3   0.6
 
Need more HTs.

MJost



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 15, 2012, 03:58:24 PM
I will probably upgrade to 111 markers eventually, especially now that I can kind of see a reason for doing so.

The main problem is money and conflicting priorities. I want to order mtDNA and Family Finder tests for my dad.

Maybe I'll win the lottery and be able to order everything at once. :-)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 15, 2012, 04:11:02 PM
Remember this goofy article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9211247/DNA-reveals-the-truth-about-Bonnie-Prince-Charlie.html)? Sifting through its rubbish trying to find something interesting, I noticed this sentence, referring to the Duke of Buccleuch's y-dna test results:

Quote
The duke’s genetic marker is thought to take the story back to south-west England, suggesting that the Stewarts were originally Cornishmen.

Alistair Moffat appears to be the source of that information. At first, I thought he was referring to the Stewarts' Breton ancestry and making the assumption that most Bretons must be descended from 5th century British refugees from Cornwall. But then I began to wonder, does Scotland's DNA, which I understand is soon to become "Britain's DNA", have some data on Cornishmen that we don't know about?

How frequent is DF41 in Cornwall and the rest of SW England? How about Wales?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 15, 2012, 04:53:59 PM
So, you have DF41 at just over 2,000 years old, but, given the margin of error, it's more accurate to say it's between 2,000 and 3,000 years old, correct?
Yes the variance is a bit wider without the Stu's causing the age to be a bit higher. Founders age is what should be used due to missing and unknown Hts.

I noticed that when using 111 markers the age calculation provides a noticeble decrease in an age of a clade which I believe is a more accurate result. 111 markers should be the standard for dating clades.

MikeW's feature in his Gen Estimator Time chart shows the age in thousands.
DF41 All Founders Age

Midpt   2S max   1S max   1S min   2S min
2.0   3.5   2.8   1.3   0.6
 
Need more HTs.

MJost



Okay, just for fun, let's agree that the age of DF41 is closer to 2,000 years than it is to 3,000 years. If it came into being and was first passed on around the first advent of Christ, what can we say about its present distribution? Perhaps rather than being able to say much of anything definite, that age estimation might be able to lead us to ask the right questions.

DF41 looks pretty Isles-ish right now.

  • What was going in the western part of the Isles (i.e., about the Irish Sea), where DF41 appears to be concentrated, about 2,000 years ago?
  • Did DF41 originate on the Continent about 2,000 years ago and spread to the Isles from there?
    Or . . .

  • Could DF41 have originated in Ireland and its appearance in Scotland, Wales, and western England be attributable to the arrival of Irish invaders in the latter days of the Roman occupation?

Other questions I have involve the Stewarts. The Stewarts are supposed to be of Breton origin, their ancestor arriving in England as part of the contingent of Breton knights who accompanied William the Conqueror and took part in the Norman Conquest. If DF41 is ultimately of British Isles origin, then either the tale of the Stewarts' Breton origin is merely a legend or their Breton ancestor was the descendant of a 5th century British refugee. Which is it? Or is DF41 not of British Isles origin? Perhaps it originated in France?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Heber on September 15, 2012, 05:09:49 PM
So, you have DF41 at just over 2,000 years old, but, given the margin of error, it's more accurate to say it's between 2,000 and 3,000 years old, correct?
Yes the variance is a bit wider without the Stu's causing the age to be a bit higher. Founders age is what should be used due to missing and unknown Hts.

I noticed that when using 111 markers the age calculation provides a noticeble decrease in an age of a clade which I believe is a more accurate result. 111 markers should be the standard for dating clades.

MikeW's feature in his Gen Estimator Time chart shows the age in thousands.
DF41 All Founders Age

Midpt   2S max   1S max   1S min   2S min
2.0   3.5   2.8   1.3   0.6
 
Need more HTs.

MJost



Okay, just for fun, let's agree that the age of DF41 is closer to 2,000 years than it is to 3,000 years. If it came into being and was first passed on around the first advent of Christ, what can we say about its present distribution? Perhaps rather than being able to say much of anything definite, that age estimation might be able to lead us to ask the right questions.

DF41 looks pretty Isles-ish right now.

  • What was going in the western part of the Isles (i.e., about the Irish Sea), where DF41 appears to be concentrated, about 2,000 years ago?
  • Did DF41 originate on the Continent about 2,000 years ago and spread to the Isles from there?
    Or . . .

  • Could DF41 have originated in Ireland and its appearance in Scotland, Wales, and western England be attributable to the arrival of Irish invaders in the latter days of the Roman occupation?


Rich,

First, congratulations on your DF41 assignment.
You know what this means?
1) The wily Scots managed to sneak in some Gaelic DNA into the Stewarts bloodline.
This would be the biggest "scoop" in British Royal family history since Alfred burnt the cakes:).
2) L21 or DF13 was born in the Isles and and the Breton Stewarts are descendants of Gaelic ancestors.
Take your pick.
3) I believe DF41 is a Hebrides based, Dal Riadian like line.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mark Jost on September 15, 2012, 06:14:11 PM
Rich,

It appears that the current crop of Stu's have the following age info (I hear someone else doesnt like my table format).

Founders 41-744-Stu
Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   +-YBP   Max   VAR   SD
22.9   14.0   688.2   419.5   1,107.7   2.7   1.6

So 41-744-Stu Subclade isnt that old but could be around 1,107.7 ybp as the Gen111T shows. So I would like to see some other YDNA from The Stewarts who are still located in and are of a Breton origin.

MJost



Okay, just for fun, let's agree that the age of DF41 is closer to 2,000 years than it is to 3,000 years. If it came into being and was first passed on around the first advent of Christ, what can we say about its present distribution? Perhaps rather than being able to say much of anything definite, that age estimation might be able to lead us to ask the right questions.

DF41 looks pretty Isles-ish right now.

  • What was going in the western part of the Isles (i.e., about the Irish Sea), where DF41 appears to be concentrated, about 2,000 years ago?
  • Did DF41 originate on the Continent about 2,000 years ago and spread to the Isles from there?
    Or . . .

  • Could DF41 have originated in Ireland and its appearance in Scotland, Wales, and western England be attributable to the arrival of Irish invaders in the latter days of the Roman occupation?

Other questions I have involve the Stewarts. The Stewarts are supposed to be of Breton origin, their ancestor arriving in England as part of the contingent of Breton knights who accompanied William the Conqueror and took part in the Norman Conquest. If DF41 is ultimately of British Isles origin, then either the tale of the Stewarts' Breton origin is merely a legend or their Breton ancestor was the descendant of a 5th century British refugee. Which is it? Or is DF41 not of British Isles origin? Perhaps it originated in France?



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on September 15, 2012, 06:22:55 PM

How frequent is DF41 in Cornwall and the rest of SW England? How about Wales?
[/quote]

See http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/1309/

I suspect that the reason the sample there is so skimpy is that most people do not go through the extra step of finding latitude/longitude for their most distant ancestors.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 16, 2012, 05:35:50 AM

See http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/1309/

I suspect that the reason the sample there is so skimpy is that most people do not go through the extra step of finding latitude/longitude for their most distant ancestors.

Unfortunately, that map is not up to date, which is understandable, since things are changing rapidly for DF41. I know of a couple of Welsh DF41+ already, and they're not on that map.

I am wondering if Scotland's DNA has some stats on parts of Britain that we don't have.

I noticed that the Semargl map has a Ryley, kit N76583, whom I hadn't heard of. It shows him in northern England, but, unless I am mistaken, Ryley is a variant of the Irish surname Reilly.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 16, 2012, 05:39:36 AM


Rich,

First, congratulations on your DF41 assignment.
You know what this means?
1) The wily Scots managed to sneak in some Gaelic DNA into the Stewarts bloodline.
This would be the biggest "scoop" in British Royal family history since Alfred burnt the cakes:).
2) L21 or DF13 was born in the Isles and and the Breton Stewarts are descendants of Gaelic ancestors.
Take your pick.
3) I believe DF41 is a Hebrides based, Dal Riadian like line.

Thanks, Heber.

I would certainly be glad if DF41 turned out to be Gaelic, as you theorize. I will admit things are looking that way at this point.

But I also know, having looked at FTDNA's stats a number of times, that British Isles results outnumber continental results, especially those from France, by an enormous margin. Because of that, we aren't getting an accurate picture of things. I am not quite ready to dismiss the Breton origin of the Stewarts or of DF41.

I absolutely do not believe that either L21 or DF13 was born in the Isles, however.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 16, 2012, 05:56:37 AM

See http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/1309/

I suspect that the reason the sample there is so skimpy is that most people do not go through the extra step of finding latitude/longitude for their most distant ancestors.

Unfortunately, that map is not up to date, which is understandable, since things are changing rapidly for DF41. I know of a couple of Welsh DF41+ already, and they're not on that map.

I am wondering if Scotland's DNA has some stats on parts of Britain that we don't have.

I noticed that the Semargl map has a Ryley, kit N76583, whom I hadn't heard of. It shows him in northern England, but, unless I am mistaken, Ryley is a variant of the Irish surname Reilly.

I found him in the Riley DNA Project, and, sure enough, he is DF41+.

I'll try to recruit him for both the R-L21 Plus Project and the R-DF41 and Subclades Project.

His mdka came from Burscough, Lancashire.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 16, 2012, 06:13:57 AM

See http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/1309/

I suspect that the reason the sample there is so skimpy is that most people do not go through the extra step of finding latitude/longitude for their most distant ancestors.

Unfortunately, that map is not up to date, which is understandable, since things are changing rapidly for DF41. I know of a couple of Welsh DF41+ already, and they're not on that map.

I am wondering if Scotland's DNA has some stats on parts of Britain that we don't have.

I noticed that the Semargl map has a Ryley, kit N76583, whom I hadn't heard of. It shows him in northern England, but, unless I am mistaken, Ryley is a variant of the Irish surname Reilly.

I found him in the Riley DNA Project, and, sure enough, he is DF41+.

I'll try to recruit him for both the R-L21 Plus Project and the R-DF41 and Subclades Project.

His mdka came from Burscough, Lancashire.


Okay, I just sent an email off to the admin of the Riley DNA Project asking her to invite kit N76583 to join the R-L21 Plus Project and the R-DF41 and Subclades Project. I also asked her to invite all her L21+ and subclades members to join the R-L21 Plus Project.

I noticed that Ryley, kit N76583, has 534=14. (I am not ready to surrender on that!)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 16, 2012, 06:59:24 AM
Remember this goofy article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9211247/DNA-reveals-the-truth-about-Bonnie-Prince-Charlie.html)? Sifting through its rubbish trying to find something interesting, I noticed this sentence, referring to the Duke of Buccleuch's y-dna test results:

Quote
The duke’s genetic marker is thought to take the story back to south-west England, suggesting that the Stewarts were originally Cornishmen.

Alistair Moffat appears to be the source of that information. At first, I thought he was referring to the Stewarts' Breton ancestry and making the assumption that most Bretons must be descended from 5th century British refugees from Cornwall. But then I began to wonder, does Scotland's DNA, which I understand is soon to become "Britain's DNA", have some data on Cornishmen that we don't know about?

How frequent is DF41 in Cornwall and the rest of SW England? How about Wales?

The even stupider headline that I saw in some rags were: "Bonnie Prince Charlie was really English" *rolls eyes* -- basically they were taken above bit about Cornwall and saying that would basically make him English -- leaving aside that core of Cornwall's population are Brythonic Celtic speakers who underwent language shift in last 400-500 years.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 16, 2012, 07:12:49 AM
Remember this goofy article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9211247/DNA-reveals-the-truth-about-Bonnie-Prince-Charlie.html)? Sifting through its rubbish trying to find something interesting, I noticed this sentence, referring to the Duke of Buccleuch's y-dna test results:

Quote
The duke’s genetic marker is thought to take the story back to south-west England, suggesting that the Stewarts were originally Cornishmen.

Alistair Moffat appears to be the source of that information. At first, I thought he was referring to the Stewarts' Breton ancestry and making the assumption that most Bretons must be descended from 5th century British refugees from Cornwall. But then I began to wonder, does Scotland's DNA, which I understand is soon to become "Britain's DNA", have some data on Cornishmen that we don't know about?

How frequent is DF41 in Cornwall and the rest of SW England? How about Wales?

The even stupider headline that I saw in some rags were: "Bonnie Prince Charlie was really English" *rolls eyes* -- basically they were taken above bit about Cornwall and saying that would basically make him English -- leaving aside that core of Cornwall's population are Brythonic Celtic speakers who underwent language shift in last 400-500 years.

I saw some of those, too.

I wondered about the Cornwall remark because my own surname, Stevens, is very common in Cornwall, and I have no idea who my immigrant ancestor was or where he came from. I know my family was on the western frontier along the Ohio River in Pennsylvania and what is now West Virginia very early on, and there was a lot of Scots-Irish settlement there. But the Scots-Irish weren't alone, so that fact isn't much help.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mkk on September 16, 2012, 07:21:38 AM
I read that article, it seems to be back when the whole "ice age hunter gatherer2 Britsh thing was popular:

Mr Moffat said: “Everybody wants to be a Viking, but it doesn’t usually work out that way. We all came here after the last ice age and perhaps because it is impossible to go further north-west, Scotland has been the final destination for many journeys over 11,000 years.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 16, 2012, 07:26:37 AM
I read that article, it seems to be back when the whole "ice age hunter gatherer2 Britsh thing was popular:

Mr Moffat said: “Everybody wants to be a Viking, but it doesn’t usually work out that way. We all came here after the last ice age and perhaps because it is impossible to go further north-west, Scotland has been the final destination for many journeys over 11,000 years.


Yes, that was one of the things I had in mind when I mentioned sifting through the rubbish in that article. It's a current article, but the R1b-Caveman zombie is hard to kill.



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 16, 2012, 02:30:22 PM
I just sent Dr. Jim Wilson of Scotland's DNA an email asking him about S524 (DF41) in Cornwall, to find out if he has some information on it that we don't have. I specifically asked him if Alistair Moffat's comment to the media about the Stewarts' supposed Cornish origin was based on DF41 results in Cornwall or just Mr. Moffat's musings on the Stewart's alleged Breton ancestry.

I have communicated with Dr. Wilson in the past and have found him to be a super nice, down-to-earth guy.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mkk on September 16, 2012, 03:03:59 PM
I read that article, it seems to be back when the whole "ice age hunter gatherer2 Britsh thing was popular:

Mr Moffat said: “Everybody wants to be a Viking, but it doesn’t usually work out that way. We all came here after the last ice age and perhaps because it is impossible to go further north-west, Scotland has been the final destination for many journeys over 11,000 years.


Yes, that was one of the things I had in mind when I mentioned sifting through the rubbish in that article. It's a current article, but the R1b-Caveman zombie is hard to kill.


Yep. It's reappeared in the media with the results of the People of the British isles. Although their work is autosomal and you can't really work out when a population arrived in a area with that, they've still claimed that the ancestry of the Welsh is ancient and dates back to the end of the last ice age. I don't know for sure, but I imagine these suggestions are based upon the works of Oppenheimer et. al. on R1b a few years back.

Maybe they will explain their reasoning when the paper comes out.

The again I've noticed the media is always pretty sensational about genetic studies, often misinterpreting their main conclusions.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 16, 2012, 06:49:08 PM
I just sent Dr. Jim Wilson of Scotland's DNA an email asking him about S524 (DF41) in Cornwall, to find out if he has some information on it that we don't have. I specifically asked him if Alistair Moffat's comment to the media about the Stewarts' supposed Cornish origin was based on DF41 results in Cornwall or just Mr. Moffat's musings on the Stewart's alleged Breton ancestry.

I have communicated with Dr. Wilson in the past and have found him to be a super nice, down-to-earth guy.

Interesting that there is now an "S524" label for DF41. It wouldn't surprise me though that it isn't included on their current chip given that it's only been available to test from FTDNA for about 6 months now. So they mightn't have any results.  Now my memory is abit hazy but my impression was that the Cornish angle was brought in to tie in with Stewarts Breton genealogy.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 16, 2012, 07:27:32 PM

See http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/1309/

I suspect that the reason the sample there is so skimpy is that most people do not go through the extra step of finding latitude/longitude for their most distant ancestors.

Unfortunately, that map is not up to date, which is understandable, since things are changing rapidly for DF41. I know of a couple of Welsh DF41+ already, and they're not on that map.

I am wondering if Scotland's DNA has some stats on parts of Britain that we don't have.

I noticed that the Semargl map has a Ryley, kit N76583, whom I hadn't heard of. It shows him in northern England, but, unless I am mistaken, Ryley is a variant of the Irish surname Reilly.

Actually there is a non-Irish name Riley in northern England (I think it was Lankashire or Cumbria) and comes from a placenames.  There is also a non-Irish name from (I think) Devon also named after a placename there I think.  Typically the non-Irish Reillys spell their name Riley.  The English Riley family are most famous for making cars like the Riley Elf etc in Britain many decades ago.

Duplicate names are a problem.  For example there are Kelly and Murphys famileis in Scotland that are native names (Kelly again after an placename).


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Jdean on September 16, 2012, 07:36:14 PM

See http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/1309/

I suspect that the reason the sample there is so skimpy is that most people do not go through the extra step of finding latitude/longitude for their most distant ancestors.

Unfortunately, that map is not up to date, which is understandable, since things are changing rapidly for DF41. I know of a couple of Welsh DF41+ already, and they're not on that map.

I am wondering if Scotland's DNA has some stats on parts of Britain that we don't have.

I noticed that the Semargl map has a Ryley, kit N76583, whom I hadn't heard of. It shows him in northern England, but, unless I am mistaken, Ryley is a variant of the Irish surname Reilly.

Actually there is a non-Irish name Riley in northern England (I think it was Lankashire or Cumbria) and comes from a placenames.  There is also a non-Irish name from (I think) Devon also named after a placename there I think.  Typically the non-Irish Reillys spell their name Riley.  The English Riley family are most famous for making cars like the Riley Elf etc in Britain many decades ago.

Duplicate names are a problem.  For example there are Kelly and Murphys famileis in Scotland that are native names (Kelly again after an placename).

Walter Raleigh came from Devon


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: df.reynolds on September 16, 2012, 07:39:06 PM
I just sent Dr. Jim Wilson of Scotland's DNA an email asking him about S524 (DF41) in Cornwall, to find out if he has some information on it that we don't have. I specifically asked him if Alistair Moffat's comment to the media about the Stewarts' supposed Cornish origin was based on DF41 results in Cornwall or just Mr. Moffat's musings on the Stewart's alleged Breton ancestry.

I have communicated with Dr. Wilson in the past and have found him to be a super nice, down-to-earth guy.

Interesting that there is now an "S524" label for DF41. It wouldn't surprise me though that it isn't included on their current chip given that it's only been available to test from FTDNA for about 6 months now. So they mightn't have any results.  Now my memory is abit hazy but my impression was that the Cornish angle was brought in to tie in with Stewarts Breton genealogy.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I obtained a list of all SNPs under R-L21/S145 that are included in the ScotlandsDNA test from Dr Wilson a while back, and you are correct DF41 is not included. List is available at:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-df21/default.aspx?section=news

Regards,
david


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: OConnor on September 16, 2012, 07:57:39 PM
hey! congradulations Stevo!

Could there be an early Scandinavian connection?
I like the underdog!

I suppose you can call me Dad now with my DF13**





Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on September 16, 2012, 08:06:21 PM

See http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/1309/

I suspect that the reason the sample there is so skimpy is that most people do not go through the extra step of finding latitude/longitude for their most distant ancestors.

Unfortunately, that map is not up to date, which is understandable, since things are changing rapidly for DF41. I know of a couple of Welsh DF41+ already, and they're not on that map.

I am not sure that it is that out of date as they appear to be updating it daily. So, I go back to my suspicion that the no-shows are because individuals do not have latitude/longitude of their most distant known ancestor in their profiles. For example, I have 21 Y67 matches at a GD of 7 or less. 9 show up on my FTDNA matches map.

I cannot compare how many DF41's show up on FTDNA's SNP map with those on Semargl for two reasons. FTDNA does not go to DF41 and, if it did, It shows clusters rather than individuals. Both approaches have useful purposes.

Since both maps do go to L21, I thought I would take a look at them although I would be comparing apple Clusters with orange Individuals. You might want to take a look at the Semargl map at that level and note the fairly large groups in western China that does not show up on FTDNA's map for example.

Please consider this constructive discussion and not a criticism of your response. I just don't want us overlooking an additional tool for our toolkit.

By the way. Because I still think the problem is lack of latitude/longitude, I put together a little location tutorial for newbies like myself. It is posted in the files section of the R-L21 Project's Yahoo group under "Y_DNA_TOOLS - A Location Tutorial for Newbies.pdf"

Cheers,
Larry


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 17, 2012, 04:04:23 AM
I just sent Dr. Jim Wilson of Scotland's DNA an email asking him about S524 (DF41) in Cornwall, to find out if he has some information on it that we don't have. I specifically asked him if Alistair Moffat's comment to the media about the Stewarts' supposed Cornish origin was based on DF41 results in Cornwall or just Mr. Moffat's musings on the Stewart's alleged Breton ancestry.

I have communicated with Dr. Wilson in the past and have found him to be a super nice, down-to-earth guy.

I got an email reply from Dr. Wilson. He says the Telegraph got carried away; they don't have any S524 (DF41) samples from Cornwall yet, that the comment probably had something to do with 5th century British refugees.

He did tell me they have some Cornish samples and plan to screen them for S524 (DF41) in the next few months "as part of a wider survey of some of these more interesting new markers". He said they plan to do the same with some samples from Northern France.

I hope we hear about their findings.

Dr. Jim Wilson is a good guy.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: avalon on September 17, 2012, 04:44:01 AM
I read that article, it seems to be back when the whole "ice age hunter gatherer2 Britsh thing was popular:

Mr Moffat said: “Everybody wants to be a Viking, but it doesn’t usually work out that way. We all came here after the last ice age and perhaps because it is impossible to go further north-west, Scotland has been the final destination for many journeys over 11,000 years.


Yes, that was one of the things I had in mind when I mentioned sifting through the rubbish in that article. It's a current article, but the R1b-Caveman zombie is hard to kill.


Yep. It's reappeared in the media with the results of the People of the British isles. Although their work is autosomal and you can't really work out when a population arrived in a area with that, they've still claimed that the ancestry of the Welsh is ancient and dates back to the end of the last ice age. I don't know for sure, but I imagine these suggestions are based upon the works of Oppenheimer et. al. on R1b a few years back.

Maybe they will explain their reasoning when the paper comes out.

The again I've noticed the media is always pretty sensational about genetic studies, often misinterpreting their main conclusions.

Mkk

Are you sure that the POBI project are claiming that R1b dates back to the ice age, in line with Oppenheimer?



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mkk on September 17, 2012, 02:38:21 PM
I read that article, it seems to be back when the whole "ice age hunter gatherer2 Britsh thing was popular:

Mr Moffat said: “Everybody wants to be a Viking, but it doesn’t usually work out that way. We all came here after the last ice age and perhaps because it is impossible to go further north-west, Scotland has been the final destination for many journeys over 11,000 years.


Yes, that was one of the things I had in mind when I mentioned sifting through the rubbish in that article. It's a current article, but the R1b-Caveman zombie is hard to kill.


Yep. It's reappeared in the media with the results of the People of the British isles. Although their work is autosomal and you can't really work out when a population arrived in a area with that, they've still claimed that the ancestry of the Welsh is ancient and dates back to the end of the last ice age. I don't know for sure, but I imagine these suggestions are based upon the works of Oppenheimer et. al. on R1b a few years back.

Maybe they will explain their reasoning when the paper comes out.

The again I've noticed the media is always pretty sensational about genetic studies, often misinterpreting their main conclusions.

Mkk

Are you sure that the POBI project are claiming that R1b dates back to the ice age, in line with Oppenheimer?


No, I just suggested it based upon the rather wide reportage of Oppenheimer, Sykes et. al a few years ago. It entered popular culture with National Geographic, the aforementioned books of Oppenheimer et. al, the spread of their theories into Britain's newspapers, the dissemination of their theories in programs such as "blood of the Irish" and so on.

I presume their paper will include suggestions on the origins of the various clusters they've found, so as I said they may explain their reasoning for a Paleolithic origin of  western Britain.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 17, 2012, 08:56:22 PM
I count 26 DF41 tests still on my Pending Lab Results page and four on my Pending Shipment to Lab page.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 18, 2012, 06:05:12 PM
What do you think about this guy in the French Heritage Project?
f58641 Rioux, b. Unknown Origin

He's got reasonable GD's L744 Stuarts and some matching markers, but not all the key ones.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 18, 2012, 08:24:18 PM
What do you think about this guy in the French Heritage Project?
f58641 Rioux, b. Unknown Origin

He's got reasonable GD's L744 Stuarts and some matching markers, but not all the key ones.


Is he a match for kit 225950, another Rioux? This second Rioux has tested L21+ and is in the Bretagne Project. He has only 37 markers, but he has a couple of Stewarts at a gd of 3 away. One of his matches is a Rioux, so maybe 58641 and 225950 are relatives.

225950 I can get hold of.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 18, 2012, 08:28:04 PM
What do you think about this guy in the French Heritage Project?
f58641 Rioux, b. Unknown Origin

He's got reasonable GD's L744 Stuarts and some matching markers, but not all the key ones.


Is he a match for kit 225950, another Rioux? This second Rioux has tested L21+ and is in the Bretagne Project. He has only 37 markers, but he has a couple of Stewarts at a gd of 3 away. One of his matches is a Rioux, so maybe 58641 and 225950 are relatives.

225950 I can get hold of.

It looks like they do match.

I'll try to contact M. Rioux. If my efforts don't work, I'll ask Bernard to contact him.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on September 18, 2012, 11:21:28 PM
Kit 240201 (Walker) DF41+ L746- L745- L744- L564- L563-


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 19, 2012, 04:02:23 AM
Kit 240201 (Walker) DF41+ L746- L745- L744- L564- L563-

Congratulations!

We pretty much knew it was coming, but it's good to have the results.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 19, 2012, 04:38:28 AM
What do you think about this guy in the French Heritage Project?
f58641 Rioux, b. Unknown Origin

He's got reasonable GD's L744 Stuarts and some matching markers, but not all the key ones.


Is he a match for kit 225950, another Rioux? This second Rioux has tested L21+ and is in the Bretagne Project. He has only 37 markers, but he has a couple of Stewarts at a gd of 3 away. One of his matches is a Rioux, so maybe 58641 and 225950 are relatives.

225950 I can get hold of.

It looks like they do match.

I'll try to contact M. Rioux. If my efforts don't work, I'll ask Bernard to contact him.

225950 has ordered DF41.

He is a French Canadian of Breton ancestry, so this could be interesting.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 19, 2012, 02:42:35 PM
What do you think about this guy in the French Heritage Project?
f58641 Rioux, b. Unknown Origin

He's got reasonable GD's L744 Stuarts and some matching markers, but not all the key ones.


Is he a match for kit 225950, another Rioux? This second Rioux has tested L21+ and is in the Bretagne Project. He has only 37 markers, but he has a couple of Stewarts at a gd of 3 away. One of his matches is a Rioux, so maybe 58641 and 225950 are relatives.

225950 I can get hold of.

It looks like they do match.

I'll try to contact M. Rioux. If my efforts don't work, I'll ask Bernard to contact him.

225950 has ordered DF41.

He is a French Canadian of Breton ancestry, so this could be interesting.

Yes, that could be quite interesting, since we know what the Stewarts think.  Should we speculate on this?  You got it right on the L459+ L21- being overturned so I'm behind.  On this one, because of GD's of 6 to 8 with the L744+ Stewarts and the common subset of off-modals, I'm betting DF41+.  Perhaps the real challenge would be to bet L744+ or -.  Well, that's going quite a ways out on the limb.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 19, 2012, 02:49:36 PM
What do you think about this guy in the French Heritage Project?
f58641 Rioux, b. Unknown Origin

He's got reasonable GD's L744 Stuarts and some matching markers, but not all the key ones.


Is he a match for kit 225950, another Rioux? This second Rioux has tested L21+ and is in the Bretagne Project. He has only 37 markers, but he has a couple of Stewarts at a gd of 3 away. One of his matches is a Rioux, so maybe 58641 and 225950 are relatives.

225950 I can get hold of.

It looks like they do match.

I'll try to contact M. Rioux. If my efforts don't work, I'll ask Bernard to contact him.

225950 has ordered DF41.

He is a French Canadian of Breton ancestry, so this could be interesting.

Yes, that could be quite interesting, since we know what the Stewarts think.  Should we speculate on this?  You got it right on the L459+ L21- being overturned so I'm behind.  On this one, because of GD's of 6 to 8 with the L744+ Stewarts and the common subset of off-modals, I'm betting DF41+.  Perhaps the real challenge would be to bet L744+ or -.  Well, that's going quite a ways out on the limb.

I agree. I'm thinking the Stewart tradition of Breton ancestry is true, and some Bretons and perhaps some Normans and other NW French will turn up who are DF41+. The real question for debate will be which came first, the British chicken or the Breton egg?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 19, 2012, 04:03:44 PM
First things first hopefully we get a DF41+ result, we all saw what happened with Erwin who appeared close on GD to Stewarts and ended up DF41-.

Obviously if he is DF41+ I'd recommend testing both L744 and L746, we don't know after all which one came first, obviously all of the "Stewart cluster" so tested are L744+/L746+ (and all but one was L745+). It would be nice if we could spilt L744 and L746. Should be interesting.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 19, 2012, 08:42:31 PM
That's a good point. We don't have any continental DF41+ yet.

I'm guessing we will soon, but I could be wrong.

Right now, I'd like to see some more positive results, period. It isn't looking like DF41 will be one of the bigger subclades.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Forsythe on September 19, 2012, 09:08:33 PM
ordered DF41today, and got it in on time to be batched....


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 20, 2012, 04:01:10 AM
ordered DF41today, and got it in on time to be batched....

I hope you get a positive result in about a week. We could use some new recruits.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: avalon on September 20, 2012, 06:15:53 AM
I read that article, it seems to be back when the whole "ice age hunter gatherer2 Britsh thing was popular:

Mr Moffat said: “Everybody wants to be a Viking, but it doesn’t usually work out that way. We all came here after the last ice age and perhaps because it is impossible to go further north-west, Scotland has been the final destination for many journeys over 11,000 years.


Yes, that was one of the things I had in mind when I mentioned sifting through the rubbish in that article. It's a current article, but the R1b-Caveman zombie is hard to kill.


Yep. It's reappeared in the media with the results of the People of the British isles. Although their work is autosomal and you can't really work out when a population arrived in a area with that, they've still claimed that the ancestry of the Welsh is ancient and dates back to the end of the last ice age. I don't know for sure, but I imagine these suggestions are based upon the works of Oppenheimer et. al. on R1b a few years back.

Maybe they will explain their reasoning when the paper comes out.

The again I've noticed the media is always pretty sensational about genetic studies, often misinterpreting their main conclusions.

Mkk

Are you sure that the POBI project are claiming that R1b dates back to the ice age, in line with Oppenheimer?


No, I just suggested it based upon the rather wide reportage of Oppenheimer, Sykes et. al a few years ago. It entered popular culture with National Geographic, the aforementioned books of Oppenheimer et. al, the spread of their theories into Britain's newspapers, the dissemination of their theories in programs such as "blood of the Irish" and so on.

I presume their paper will include suggestions on the origins of the various clusters they've found, so as I said they may explain their reasoning for a Paleolithic origin of  western Britain.

But I don't think the POBI project are arguing for a Paleolithic origin of Western Britain, at least I haven't read it in any of their papers or newsletters.

I know the media still push this view but that is a hangover from Oppenheimer's book, 2006.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mkk on September 20, 2012, 10:18:47 AM
I read that article, it seems to be back when the whole "ice age hunter gatherer2 Britsh thing was popular:

Mr Moffat said: “Everybody wants to be a Viking, but it doesn’t usually work out that way. We all came here after the last ice age and perhaps because it is impossible to go further north-west, Scotland has been the final destination for many journeys over 11,000 years.


Yes, that was one of the things I had in mind when I mentioned sifting through the rubbish in that article. It's a current article, but the R1b-Caveman zombie is hard to kill.


Yep. It's reappeared in the media with the results of the People of the British isles. Although their work is autosomal and you can't really work out when a population arrived in a area with that, they've still claimed that the ancestry of the Welsh is ancient and dates back to the end of the last ice age. I don't know for sure, but I imagine these suggestions are based upon the works of Oppenheimer et. al. on R1b a few years back.

Maybe they will explain their reasoning when the paper comes out.

The again I've noticed the media is always pretty sensational about genetic studies, often misinterpreting their main conclusions.

Mkk

Are you sure that the POBI project are claiming that R1b dates back to the ice age, in line with Oppenheimer?


No, I just suggested it based upon the rather wide reportage of Oppenheimer, Sykes et. al a few years ago. It entered popular culture with National Geographic, the aforementioned books of Oppenheimer et. al, the spread of their theories into Britain's newspapers, the dissemination of their theories in programs such as "blood of the Irish" and so on.

I presume their paper will include suggestions on the origins of the various clusters they've found, so as I said they may explain their reasoning for a Paleolithic origin of  western Britain.

But I don't think the POBI project are arguing for a Paleolithic origin of Western Britain, at least I haven't read it in any of their papers or newsletters.

I know the media still push this view but that is a hangover from Oppenheimer's book, 2006.
The media quoted one of the researchers as saying that the shared ancestry of Western Britons and northwest French dates back to peoples moving north after the last ice age.

Then again, this may be the opinion just of that cu-author, and not of the group as a whole.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 21, 2012, 04:49:47 PM
Here's another guy to check out from the Turner project:

219429   Austin H. Turner, b1818 GA d 1888 AL

He is a GD=10 at 67 with some Stuart/Stewart L744+ guys and also with two Z253+ guys so he could be either DF41 or Z253..


or neither for that matter.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 22, 2012, 04:43:57 AM
There are still 27 DF41 tests in Pending Lab Results, but none in Pending Shipment to Lab. I was hoping for some results this morning, but it looks like FTDNA was doing 111-marker upgrades, because that is all that came in last night.

There are a couple of men almost certain to be DF41+ awaiting their results, like Miller, kit 96950, who is a fairly close match to McBirnie, Morrison, and Walker. There is Self, kit 53479, as well, who is solidly in my cluster and who matches Cooper 66/67. He'll be DF41+.

An interesting one for me is the French Hebert, kit 4568, whose haplotype is on the outskirts of my own cluster, 41-1123.

Hamon, kit 84034, is French and was in the DF41 section of Williamson's Neighbor-Joining tree. That's no guarantee, of course, since a number of those in that section have already tested DF41-.

Two Bretons are awaiting DF41 results: Rioux, kit 225950, and Le Guennec, kit N98545.

The German Kepler, kit 88876, is also awaiting DF41 results, and he was in the DF41 section of Alex Williamson's Neighbor-Joining tree.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on September 22, 2012, 06:09:38 AM
There are still 27 DF41 tests in Pending Lab Results, but none in Pending Shipment to Lab. I was hoping for some results this morning, but it looks like FTDNA was doing 111-marker upgrades, because that is all that came in last night.

There are a couple of men almost certain to be DF41+ awaiting their results, like Miller, kit 96950, who is a fairly close match to McBirnie, Morrison, and Walker. There is Self, kit 53479, as well, who is solidly in my cluster and who matches Cooper 66/67. He'll be DF41+.

An interesting one for me is the French Hebert, kit 4568, whose haplotype is on the outskirts of my own cluster, 41-1123.

Hamon, kit 84034, is French and was in the DF41 section of Williamson's Neighbor-Joining tree. That's no guarantee, of course, since a number of those in that section have already tested DF41-.

Two Bretons are awaiting DF41 results: Rioux, kit 225950, and Le Guennec, kit N98545.

The German Kepler, kit 88876, is also awaiting DF41 results, and he was in the DF41 section of Alex Williamson's Neighbor-Joining tree.

Also posted to R-L21 Project's Yahoo list:

The July, 2012 Analys of DF41 at http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L21/Analysis/R_L21_Analysis_DF41.html
shows fingerprints for DF41-M and DF41-D as well as the DF41-M signature from Mike's 41-1426C.

Does anybody know if any additional fingerprints or signatures have been developed?

I ask because over 25% of the non-L744/746/745 kits that are DF41+ in the L21 Plus and DF41 & subclades projects fail to match more than 50% of any of those fingerprints and signature. They are:

59080   Stevens
47694   MacMillan
163684   Webb
57563   Cooper
35212   Creer (WTY)
92380   Hall

This seems like an unusually high proportion of Outliers to newbie me, and it may lead to many DF41+ candidates going untested. An additional fingerprint, if possible, could solve that while reducing expenditures on "blind" testing.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 22, 2012, 06:21:26 AM
I don't think that is unusual for a recently discovered SNP like DF41. Cooper, Webb, and I all belong to the same haplotype cluster, which Mike calls 41-1123.

There have been a fair amount of DF41 tests lately, and by far most of the results have been negative.

It doesn't look like DF41 is going to be one of the more populous clades, probably for some reason like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HQVURyepWg). ;-)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on September 22, 2012, 06:36:27 AM
Is there a fingerprint/signature for Mike's 41-1123


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: k.o.gran on September 22, 2012, 07:04:38 AM
Hi Larry.

I replied on the Yahoo list. Here is what I replied:

Please have a look in Mike's spreadsheet. I suggest you filter by variety and
include those that start with "41-".

You will see that Stevens, Webb and Cooper are in variety 41-1123. Creer and
Hall are in variety 41-1411. The markers for these varieties are explained in
the clades tab of the same spreadsheet.

Hope this helps.

-Kai


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on September 22, 2012, 07:10:10 AM
I have 22 Y67 GD 7 or less matches including myself. I have the STR values for 16 of them who are all signature matches for DF41-M/41-1426C, including all 4 who are GD7. We span 8 surnames. Too bad FTDNA's matches table at Y67 won't go beyond GD7, or I am sure there would be more

I have contacted over half of them, so some may be in the pending orders. I'll wait for the dust to settle a bit and then contact/recontact all of them when I can wordsmith a persuasive argument to get them to test.

So, hopefully DF41 will be bigger than our first glimpse is indicating. }:>))

By the way, you are our co-admin Richard Stevens aren't you? I haven't figured out all of the handles on this list yet.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on September 22, 2012, 07:19:16 AM
Hi Larry.

I replied on the Yahoo list. Here is what I replied:

Please have a look in Mike's spreadsheet. I suggest you filter by variety and
include those that start with "41-".

You will see that Stevens, Webb and Cooper are in variety 41-1123. Creer and
Hall are in variety 41-1411. The markers for these varieties are explained in
the clades tab of the same spreadsheet.

Hope this helps.

-Kai

Hi Kai,

I assume that you refer to Mike's spreadsheet that he posted an update to yesterday?

If so, I have to say Gaaaaaaaaah, not because it isn't a great tool, but because I have macular degenerating so have to enlarge it. Then when I finally get to what I'm looking for, I have forgotten what the fields were. At 72 I'm not getting younger fast enough to keep up with the rest of the world. {:>((

Larry


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: k.o.gran on September 22, 2012, 07:39:21 AM
Hi Larry,

No worries, I'll write the signatures here.

The signature for 41-1411 is: 594=11 437=14 534=14
And for 41-1123: 390=23 385=11,11 447<=24 449<=28 464b=16 534<=14 413a<=22 (458=16 439<=11 )

If I remember correctly, markers is paranthesis are often present in the people in the variety, but not necessarily. :-)

-Kai


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on September 22, 2012, 08:21:45 AM
Thanks Kai, that answered my question.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 22, 2012, 05:52:46 PM
Thanks for answering, Kai. I got off the computer after that last post above.

@Larry

Yeah, I am the R-DF41 and Subclades Co-admin, but I promised Paul I wouldn't meddle too much in the running of that project. So, he does all the arranging and categorizing for the project. I just help out as needed.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 22, 2012, 09:51:05 PM
Does Alex Williamson plan on doing an updated Neighbor-Joining tree anytime soon? I would be curious to see the changes to the DF41 section due to recent test results.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: k.o.gran on September 23, 2012, 04:44:08 AM
Does Alex Williamson plan on doing an updated Neighbor-Joining tree anytime soon? I would be curious to see the changes to the DF41 section due to recent test results.

Agreed! But he says it's rather time consuming and requires manual work, so we are not to expect them too frequently. It would be interesting to see a new NJ tree when all the DF41 currently in batch are done.

-Kai


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 23, 2012, 06:59:15 AM
I know several of the kits that he predicted as in R-DF41 in his tree turned up to be DF41- obviously an updated kit would at least rearrange this and give us a beter idea of what kits we should contact to suggest testing.

The other option obviously over the next couple months will be for at least one DF41+ man to do Gen 2.0 testing, one it becomes available.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Heber on September 23, 2012, 07:26:30 AM
I know several of the kits that he predicted as in R-DF41 in his tree turned up to be DF41- obviously an updated kit would at least rearrange this and give us a beter idea of what kits we should contact to suggest testing.

The other option obviously over the next couple months will be for at least one DF41+ man to do Gen 2.0 testing, one it becomes available.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Good point. I will do Geno 2.0 in the DF21 group. I hope we can get Clan Colla and Ely O Carroll to do the same. It would be great to have at least one test for each of the Big Six especially M222 as there are at least three new SNPs under M222 and probably more. For DF41 it would be interesting to test the Stewart line and a confirmed Scots Gaelic line. In any event I would await the Geno 2.0 report, which is supposed to be published prior to test availability, ie end of October.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 23, 2012, 07:34:11 AM
Does Alex Williamson plan on doing an updated Neighbor-Joining tree anytime soon? I would be curious to see the changes to the DF41 section due to recent test results.

Agreed! But he says it's rather time consuming and requires manual work, so we are not to expect them too frequently. It would be interesting to see a new NJ tree when all the DF41 currently in batch are done.

-Kai

That's too bad, but I understand. I did enjoy the last one, since it gave us something to work with in recruiting likely candidates for testing.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 23, 2012, 07:37:12 AM
I know several of the kits that he predicted as in R-DF41 in his tree turned up to be DF41- obviously an updated kit would at least rearrange this and give us a beter idea of what kits we should contact to suggest testing.

The other option obviously over the next couple months will be for at least one DF41+ man to do Gen 2.0 testing, one it becomes available.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I am hazy on just what one will get from the Geno 2.0. I've heard conflicting reports. Some say it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and some say it won't test the newest L21 SNPs.

Do you know which is right?

Of course, I don't have the spare change in my genetic testing budget for the Geno 2.0 anyway, since I want to do mtDNA and Family Finder tests on my dad's kit.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 23, 2012, 07:43:19 AM
I know several of the kits that he predicted as in R-DF41 in his tree turned up to be DF41- obviously an updated kit would at least rearrange this and give us a beter idea of what kits we should contact to suggest testing.

The other option obviously over the next couple months will be for at least one DF41+ man to do Gen 2.0 testing, one it becomes available.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I am hazy on just what one will get from the Geno 2.0. I've heard conflicting reports. Some say it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and some say it won't test the newest L21 SNPs.

Do you know which is right?

Of course, I don't have the spare change in my genetic testing budget for the Geno 2.0 anyway, since I want to do mtDNA and Family Finder tests on my dad's kit.

Well there are two conflicting sides to Gen 2.0. These are:
  • It's Chip based, the Chip was designed last November/December, as a result community discovered SNP's wouldn't probably be in it. DF41 is a good example
  • Supposedly they've added 15k Y-SNP's, alot of these from testing labs and have never been available for commercial testing.

So for example even if DF41 isn't included there might be an upstream SNP (say between DF41 and DF13) that we don't know about at the moment that could be in it. Personally I'm waiting for the research paper and the first round of tests to come through before ordering. If it does shake up the tree (specifically the L21 tree) then I will probably look at ordering it in the new year.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 23, 2012, 08:10:46 AM
I know several of the kits that he predicted as in R-DF41 in his tree turned up to be DF41- obviously an updated kit would at least rearrange this and give us a beter idea of what kits we should contact to suggest testing.

The other option obviously over the next couple months will be for at least one DF41+ man to do Gen 2.0 testing, one it becomes available.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I am hazy on just what one will get from the Geno 2.0. I've heard conflicting reports. Some say it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and some say it won't test the newest L21 SNPs.

Do you know which is right?

Of course, I don't have the spare change in my genetic testing budget for the Geno 2.0 anyway, since I want to do mtDNA and Family Finder tests on my dad's kit.

Well there are two conflicting sides to Gen 2.0. These are:
  • It's Chip based, the Chip was designed last November/December, as a result community discovered SNP's wouldn't probably be in it. DF41 is a good example
  • Supposedly they've added 15k Y-SNP's, alot of these from testing labs and have never been available for commercial testing.

So for example even if DF41 isn't included there might be an upstream SNP (say between DF41 and DF13) that we don't know about at the moment that could be in it. Personally I'm waiting for the research paper and the first round of tests to come through before ordering. If it does shake up the tree (specifically the L21 tree) then I will probably look at ordering it in the new year.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Oh, okay, thanks.

It should be interesting to see how that pans out.

BTW, Province, kit 104708, who is on Alex Williamson's last NJ tree in the DF41 section (on page 86), just ordered DF41.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on September 23, 2012, 10:14:29 AM
I don't want to interfere with all the discussions going on here, but as it's a very nice small group, I'm currently using DF41 as a test case for the next version of my presentation software (used on L257.org). I *do* hope, this is permitted $:-)

There are two things that appear to me:

(1) There has been a little discussion about the "age" of DF41. I guess, DF41 will turn out to consist of a number of more or less tight clusters with a significant distance between them and it might be far more appropriate to discuss the "age" of each of these clusters individually. The combined age of DF41 is interesting from a historical point of view of course, but possibly much less so than the age of the individual clusters.

(2) The cluster that rms2 is in, I tend to call it the Stevens Cluster for clarity - $:-), screams for a 111 marker result to compare to the other clusters. One might get the impression, there's not really any good reason left to not ..... $;-)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 23, 2012, 07:19:59 PM
I don't want to interfere with all the discussions going on here, but as it's a very nice small group, I'm currently using DF41 as a test case for the next version of my presentation software (used on L257.org). I *do* hope, this is permitted $:-)

There are two things that appear to me:

(1) There has been a little discussion about the "age" of DF41. I guess, DF41 will turn out to consist of a number of more or less tight clusters with a significant distance between them and it might be far more appropriate to discuss the "age" of each of these clusters individually. The combined age of DF41 is interesting from a historical point of view of course, but possibly much less so than the age of the individual clusters.

(2) The cluster that rms2 is in, I tend to call it the Stevens Cluster for clarity - $:-), screams for a 111 marker result to compare to the other clusters. One might get the impression, there's not really any good reason left to not ..... $;-)

I'm honored, but I'm not sure the Webbs, Cooper, Self, the Prices, Chorn, and whoever else will feel the same way.

I have been thinking that now would be a good time to upgrade to 111 markers, but I'm not sure my dna testing budget will allow for it. I want to test my dad's kit for mtDNA and Family Finder (he's 82).

I look forward to the results of your experiments with DF41.

Thanks!


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 23, 2012, 07:58:56 PM
I just got word that my 64/67 Stephens (with a ph) match, kit 208061, has ordered DF41 and that one of the Prices in our cluster (I don't know which one) has also ordered DF41.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on September 23, 2012, 08:37:07 PM
I'm honored, but I'm not sure the Webbs, Cooper, Self, the Prices, Chorn, and whoever else will feel the same way.

I have been thinking that now would be a good time to upgrade to 111 markers, but I'm not sure my dna testing budget will allow for it. I want to test my dad's kit for mtDNA and Family Finder (he's 82).

I look forward to the results of your experiments with DF41.

Thanks!

I'm sure these people will feel honoured as well sharing a cluster with you. Naming of clusters is still a bit of a problem, I guess. In R-Z18 we've used geographical names (that often turn out to be wrong or at least confusing) or names of colours (that bear no relationship to the DNA results, so recognition is problematic). I've seen surname projects introduce names of prominent members for cluster names, such as a person or family who invested significantly in testing (e.g. WTY or lots of 67/111 kits) or plays a major role in the community. And are a member of the cluster of course. I tend to like the idea. $:-)

I'm amazed. I mean, presumably you have been in this business/hobby longer than I have. You have always been looking for your position in the Y-tree, invested lots and lots of time and money, and now that you've found what you have been looking for so long, you are more interested in the mt-DNA of your father ?? I must be missing something important in your considerations. $;-)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: df.reynolds on September 23, 2012, 08:49:19 PM
I don't want to interfere with all the discussions going on here, but as it's a very nice small group, I'm currently using DF41 as a test case for the next version of my presentation software (used on L257.org). I *do* hope, this is permitted $:-)

There are two things that appear to me:

(1) There has been a little discussion about the "age" of DF41. I guess, DF41 will turn out to consist of a number of more or less tight clusters with a significant distance between them and it might be far more appropriate to discuss the "age" of each of these clusters individually. The combined age of DF41 is interesting from a historical point of view of course, but possibly much less so than the age of the individual clusters.

(2) The cluster that rms2 is in, I tend to call it the Stevens Cluster for clarity - $:-), screams for a 111 marker result to compare to the other clusters. One might get the impression, there's not really any good reason left to not ..... $;-)

I'm honored, but I'm not sure the Webbs, Cooper, Self, the Prices, Chorn, and whoever else will feel the same way.

I have been thinking that now would be a good time to upgrade to 111 markers, but I'm not sure my dna testing budget will allow for it. I want to test my dad's kit for mtDNA and Family Finder (he's 82).

I look forward to the results of your experiments with DF41.

Thanks!

The Coopers already have a cluster named after them.

I refer to R-L627 as the "Cooper-Reynolds" cluster. :)

--david



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on September 23, 2012, 08:57:28 PM
I just got word that my 64/67 Stephens (with a ph) match, kit 208061, has ordered DF41 and that one of the Prices in our cluster (I don't know which one) has also ordered DF41.

How about a REAL experiment: Mr. Hebert, Kit# 4568 from France ? I'm not sure, he will be positive, but the case is very interesting.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 24, 2012, 03:58:46 AM
I just got word that my 64/67 Stephens (with a ph) match, kit 208061, has ordered DF41 and that one of the Prices in our cluster (I don't know which one) has also ordered DF41.

How about a REAL experiment: Mr. Hebert, Kit# 4568 from France ? I'm not sure, he will be positive, but the case is very interesting.

Hebert has ordered DF41. I keep waiting for the result to appear. He is on the outskirts of our cluster, so I am really interested in his result.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on September 24, 2012, 09:29:49 AM
Hebert has ordered DF41. I keep waiting for the result to appear. He is on the outskirts of our cluster, so I am really interested in his result.

Looking in a bit more detail at things, one could easily get the first impression that the first outskirt ring of your Stevens/Webb/Douglas/Cooper/Price/Selfe Cluster in addition to 4568-Herbert consists of 195898-Kendle, 39789-Baker, 50358-Laughlin and 140321-Edwards. Unfortunately, none of the owners of these kits has ventured into any SNP-testing afaia. Biggest problem is, only one has tested 67 markers, so it's not easy to see if these people are L21+. This appears to be highly relevant, as a bit further away from the center of the cluster, the percentage of U106 increases dramatically, possibly as a result of DYS390=23.

BTW, "Stevens Cluster" might be just a wee bit more practical. $:-)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on September 24, 2012, 09:42:36 AM
Hebert has ordered DF41. I keep waiting for the result to appear. He is on the outskirts of our cluster, so I am really interested in his result.

Looking in a bit more detail at things, one could easily get the first impression that the first outskirt ring of your Stevens/Webb/Douglas/Cooper/Price/Selfe Cluster in addition to 4568-Herbert consists of 195898-Kendle, 39789-Baker, 50358-Laughlin and 140321-Edwards. Unfortunately, none of the owners of these kits has ventured into any SNP-testing afaia and only one has tested 67 markers.

BTW, "Stevens Cluster" might be just a wee bit more practical. $:-)


If somebody were to configure the R-DF41 & Subclades project so that R-DF41 & subclades appeared in the list between R-DF21 & Subclades and R-DF49 & Subclades on the Donation page, then somebody might be able to donate some funds so that some of those folks could get tested.  Hint-Hint-Hint !!!


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 24, 2012, 12:07:37 PM
Hebert has ordered DF41. I keep waiting for the result to appear. He is on the outskirts of our cluster, so I am really interested in his result.

Looking in a bit more detail at things, one could easily get the first impression that the first outskirt ring of your Stevens/Webb/Douglas/Cooper/Price/Selfe Cluster in addition to 4568-Herbert consists of 195898-Kendle, 39789-Baker, 50358-Laughlin and 140321-Edwards. Unfortunately, none of the owners of these kits has ventured into any SNP-testing afaia and only one has tested 67 markers.

BTW, "Stevens Cluster" might be just a wee bit more practical. $:-)


If somebody were to configure the R-DF41 & Subclades project so that R-DF41 & subclades appeared in the list between R-DF21 & Subclades and R-DF49 & Subclades on the Donation page, then somebody might be able to donate some funds so that some of those folks could get tested.  Hint-Hint-Hint !!!

The issue appears to be an FTDNA one, there is a default link here: however in the selection menu it doesn't show DF41, even though it correctly shows the list of "R" projects:
http://www.familytreedna.com/group-general-fund-contribution.aspx?g=R-DF41Subclades

I've sent an email to FTDNA helpdesk to get them to add it in.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on September 24, 2012, 12:46:25 PM
Hebert has ordered DF41. I keep waiting for the result to appear. He is on the outskirts of our cluster, so I am really interested in his result.

Looking in a bit more detail at things, one could easily get the first impression that the first outskirt ring of your Stevens/Webb/Douglas/Cooper/Price/Selfe Cluster in addition to 4568-Herbert consists of 195898-Kendle, 39789-Baker, 50358-Laughlin and 140321-Edwards. Unfortunately, none of the owners of these kits has ventured into any SNP-testing afaia and only one has tested 67 markers.

BTW, "Stevens Cluster" might be just a wee bit more practical. $:-)


If somebody were to configure the R-DF41 & Subclades project so that R-DF41 & subclades appeared in the list between R-DF21 & Subclades and R-DF49 & Subclades on the Donation page, then somebody might be able to donate some funds so that some of those folks could get tested.  Hint-Hint-Hint !!!

The issue appears to be an FTDNA one, there is a default link here: however in the selection menu it doesn't show DF41, even though it correctly shows the list of "R" projects:
http://www.familytreedna.com/group-general-fund-contribution.aspx?g=R-DF41Subclades

I've sent an email to FTDNA helpdesk to get them to add it in.

-Paul
(DF41+)
Then I'll send them an email too. If they start getting complaints from the membership at large they'll get the hint.

Than ks


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 24, 2012, 07:58:24 PM
Hebert has ordered DF41. I keep waiting for the result to appear. He is on the outskirts of our cluster, so I am really interested in his result.

Looking in a bit more detail at things, one could easily get the first impression that the first outskirt ring of your Stevens/Webb/Douglas/Cooper/Price/Selfe Cluster in addition to 4568-Herbert consists of 195898-Kendle, 39789-Baker, 50358-Laughlin and 140321-Edwards. Unfortunately, none of the owners of these kits has ventured into any SNP-testing afaia. Biggest problem is, only one has tested 67 markers, so it's not easy to see if these people are L21+. This appears to be highly relevant, as a bit further away from the center of the cluster, the percentage of U106 increases dramatically, possibly as a result of DYS390=23.

BTW, "Stevens Cluster" might be just a wee bit more practical. $:-)


I emailed Kendle, kit 195898, and Mayson (Edwards), kit 140321, and asked them to test for DF41.

I couldn't find Laughlin or Baker. Do you know how I can contact them?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 24, 2012, 08:54:53 PM
Hebert has ordered DF41. I keep waiting for the result to appear. He is on the outskirts of our cluster, so I am really interested in his result.

Looking in a bit more detail at things, one could easily get the first impression that the first outskirt ring of your Stevens/Webb/Douglas/Cooper/Price/Selfe Cluster in addition to 4568-Herbert consists of 195898-Kendle, 39789-Baker, 50358-Laughlin and 140321-Edwards. Unfortunately, none of the owners of these kits has ventured into any SNP-testing afaia. Biggest problem is, only one has tested 67 markers, so it's not easy to see if these people are L21+. This appears to be highly relevant, as a bit further away from the center of the cluster, the percentage of U106 increases dramatically, possibly as a result of DYS390=23.

BTW, "Stevens Cluster" might be just a wee bit more practical. $:-)


I emailed Kendle, kit 195898, and Mayson (Edwards), kit 140321, and asked them to test for DF41.

I couldn't find Laughlin or Baker. Do you know how I can contact them?

Oh, Peter, you also mentioned the surname Douglas in your last post above. Where did you find that one? That one is new to me.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on September 24, 2012, 10:21:37 PM
Hebert has ordered DF41. I keep waiting for the result to appear. He is on the outskirts of our cluster, so I am really interested in his result.

Looking in a bit more detail at things, one could easily get the first impression that the first outskirt ring of your Stevens/Webb/Douglas/Cooper/Price/Selfe Cluster in addition to 4568-Herbert consists of 195898-Kendle, 39789-Baker, 50358-Laughlin and 140321-Edwards. Unfortunately, none of the owners of these kits has ventured into any SNP-testing afaia. Biggest problem is, only one has tested 67 markers, so it's not easy to see if these people are L21+. This appears to be highly relevant, as a bit further away from the center of the cluster, the percentage of U106 increases dramatically, possibly as a result of DYS390=23.

BTW, "Stevens Cluster" might be just a wee bit more practical. $:-)


I emailed Kendle, kit 195898, and Mayson (Edwards), kit 140321, and asked them to test for DF41.

I couldn't find Laughlin or Baker. Do you know how I can contact them?

I think it would be better to wait a little with Laughlin until more results are available. On second look his match to the cluster motif is far too weak for testing in this phase. BTW, it would be nice to have a rough idea of the age of the cluster or at least of the age of the DYS385b=11 fence.

Baker is in the Baker Surname Project, but you could also try sending him a message via Y-Search at GDC7F.

Oh, Peter, you also mentioned the surname Douglas in your last post above. Where did you find that one? That one is new to me.

Douglas is the name of an ancestor of one of the members of the Webb family. He entered my sheets because he is in a project that has switched off name display. I then normally use the name of the ancestor but in this case that turned out to be confusing.

BTW, as you are sending messages, it looks like the Webb surname project has switched off display of SNP testing results. That often means, the admins don't have a clue as to what that option refers to, but for analysis purposes it is most inconvenient.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 25, 2012, 03:56:03 AM
I didn't see an FTDNA Baker DNA project. I usually don't try sorting through off-FTDNA-site projects. Often it takes forever to find the actual y-dna test results and wading through pages of family-specific lore that is of little interest to outsiders. I'll look at WFN projects, but I didn't see one for the Bakers.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 25, 2012, 04:01:03 AM
No new DF41 results. There are still a bunch awaiting resolution. Maybe tonight we'll get some.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: df.reynolds on September 25, 2012, 08:23:46 AM
I didn't see an FTDNA Baker DNA project. I usually don't try sorting through off-FTDNA-site projects. Often it takes forever to find the actual y-dna test results and wading through pages of family-specific lore that is of little interest to outsiders. I'll look at WFN projects, but I didn't see one for the Bakers.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/baker/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

I general start off by googling for "kit# surname DNA", and much of the time I can immediately find a page where results are displayed.  Some FTDNA projects have a public page, but do not include their project in the the projects index.

--david


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: k.o.gran on September 25, 2012, 01:16:18 PM
I general start off by googling for "kit# surname DNA", and much of the time I can immediately find a page where results are displayed.  Some FTDNA projects have a public page, but do not include their project in the the projects index.

--david

I prefer "kit# site:familytreedna.com". If the person is in any project with public webpages enabled, it will show as a result.

-Kai


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Jdean on September 25, 2012, 01:46:29 PM
I general start off by googling for "kit# surname DNA", and much of the time I can immediately find a page where results are displayed.  Some FTDNA projects have a public page, but do not include their project in the the projects index.

--david

I prefer "kit# site:familytreedna.com". If the person is in any project with public webpages enabled, it will show as a result.

-Kai

But only if the person is on the first page (assuming there is more than one) or the project has SNP or MtDNA results switched on.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: k.o.gran on September 25, 2012, 03:01:31 PM
I general start off by googling for "kit# surname DNA", and much of the time I can immediately find a page where results are displayed.  Some FTDNA projects have a public page, but do not include their project in the the projects index.

--david

I prefer "kit# site:familytreedna.com". If the person is in any project with public webpages enabled, it will show as a result.

-Kai

But only if the person is on the first page (assuming there is more than one) or the project has SNP or MtDNA results switched on.

Yeah, that's true. If the kit you're looking for is number 501 or higher in all projects it's in and none of those have SNP or MTDNA reports turned on, google can't help you.

-Kai


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 25, 2012, 03:01:32 PM
Thanks, all of you! Live and learn.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 25, 2012, 06:37:37 PM
Hebert has ordered DF41. I keep waiting for the result to appear. He is on the outskirts of our cluster, so I am really interested in his result.

Looking in a bit more detail at things, one could easily get the first impression that the first outskirt ring of your Stevens/Webb/Douglas/Cooper/Price/Selfe Cluster in addition to 4568-Herbert consists of 195898-Kendle, 39789-Baker, 50358-Laughlin and 140321-Edwards. Unfortunately, none of the owners of these kits has ventured into any SNP-testing afaia. Biggest problem is, only one has tested 67 markers, so it's not easy to see if these people are L21+. This appears to be highly relevant, as a bit further away from the center of the cluster, the percentage of U106 increases dramatically, possibly as a result of DYS390=23.

BTW, "Stevens Cluster" might be just a wee bit more practical. $:-)


I emailed Kendle, kit 195898, and Mayson (Edwards), kit 140321, and asked them to test for DF41.

I couldn't find Laughlin or Baker. Do you know how I can contact them?

I heard from Mayson, kit 140321. He says he is ordering the DF41 test. I have no way to monitor that or the results because he is not in any of the projects I administer. Hopefully, he'll join the R-L21 Plus and R-DF41 and Subclades Projects if and when he gets a DF41+ result.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 26, 2012, 03:49:27 AM
Another morning with no new DF41 results, though there are plenty of DF41 tests pending. I guess I've gotten spoiled lately, with all the speedy turnaround times.

Maybe tomorrow we'll see some?

It makes for a boring day at WFN (for me) with no new DF41 stuff to discuss.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 26, 2012, 07:03:39 AM
Rich,

I'm just reviewing some of the Kit numbers that cluster around 1426 in Alex Williamson tree. Do you know if the following have ordered DF41? They are in the L21 Project

200128 -- Green
202725 -- Dawson
104708  -- Provan
12539 -- Baker
135086 -- Brooks [2517]

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 26, 2012, 08:16:30 AM
Rich,

I'm just reviewing some of the Kit numbers that cluster around 1426 in Alex Williamson tree. Do you know if the following have ordered DF41? They are in the L21 Project

200128 -- Green
202725 -- Dawson
104708  -- Provan
12539 -- Baker
135086 -- Brooks [2517]

-Paul
(DF41+)


I know 104708 (Provan) has, but I don't think any of the others have. I'll have to check later when I get the chance.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on September 26, 2012, 11:13:34 AM
Another morning with no new DF41 results, though there are plenty of DF41 tests pending. I guess I've gotten spoiled lately, with all the speedy turnaround times.

Maybe tomorrow we'll see some?

It makes for a boring day at WFN (for me) with no new DF41 stuff to discuss.

If there's no new DF41 stuff to discuss, then maybe it's time for some trivialities to attent to. Like the question of the status of DYS504=16 in R-L21 and R-DF41 ? Has this ever been discussed before ??

BTW, another clear indication for the need of a 111-marker result in the Stevens Cluster. And surprise, surprise, today is .... $:-)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 26, 2012, 07:09:41 PM
Rich,

I'm just reviewing some of the Kit numbers that cluster around 1426 in Alex Williamson tree. Do you know if the following have ordered DF41? They are in the L21 Project

200128 -- Green
202725 -- Dawson
104708  -- Provan
12539 -- Baker
135086 -- Brooks [2517]

-Paul
(DF41+)


I know 104708 (Provan) has, but I don't think any of the others have. I'll have to check later when I get the chance.

I don't see DF41 orders for any of those above except Provan, kit 104708.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 26, 2012, 07:10:31 PM
Another morning with no new DF41 results, though there are plenty of DF41 tests pending. I guess I've gotten spoiled lately, with all the speedy turnaround times.

Maybe tomorrow we'll see some?

It makes for a boring day at WFN (for me) with no new DF41 stuff to discuss.

If there's no new DF41 stuff to discuss, then maybe it's time for some trivialities to attent to. Like the question of the status of DYS504=16 in R-L21 and R-DF41 ? Has this ever been discussed before ??

BTW, another clear indication for the need of a 111-marker result in the Stevens Cluster. And surprise, surprise, today is .... $:-)


I didn't notice that until you mentioned it.

I can't do an upgrade to 111 markers right now. Maybe sometime in the near future.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 26, 2012, 08:02:30 PM
Well, I think I'll get off the computer for now. Hopefully, there will be some DF41 results in the morning, dark and early, when I get up.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on September 26, 2012, 08:46:33 PM

I look forward to the results of your experiments with DF41.


Originally, it wasn't my intention to publish the results, as I said I'm only testing software that we use for R-Z18 and R-DF49, but as R-DF41 proved a nice testing environment and as it might be helpful persuading people to order a DF41 test, I have made the test results on DF41 available on the web.

I will keep it up to date as long as it is considered useful. But please note, this is the output of a first experimental new version of an existing piece of software. There might be a few issues here and there initially. And there's no guaranteed delivery. Oh, and the manual (explanation and things) is being worked on. $:-)

Goto L257.org and select Y-DNA Profiles DF41+ in the menu on the left (please refer to the sheet as such and do NOT use the URL from your browser in discussions (the URL is too complex for technical reasons and will change in future).

BTW, this result sheet is best viewed on a wide screen. In Europe, these screens are called HD (High Definition) and are 1920 pixels wide. If you don't have such a screen, then this is the moment to consider getting one, as effective analysis requires the widest screen one get get. Oh and don't worry about the price, the cheapest version will do; you do not need a calibrated photo/video editing grade screen for DNA-analysis. $:-)

Now I hope the background of my remark is obvious: DYS504=16. The questions is: is this so with all profiles in all clusters of R-DF41 ??


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on September 26, 2012, 09:50:37 PM
Still looking at the DF41 results in a little more detail, it appears that the only thing needed to determine the position of L563 on the tree is a call for 75703-Webb.

According to FT-DNA 3 kits have tested positively for L563. 35212-Creer is known, but who are the others ? other Creers ?

BTW, WTY-results that have not been reported to the "standard" FT-DNA reporting system are not included in the result sheet yet. Anybody a clear overview of such WTY results in R-DF41 ??


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on September 26, 2012, 09:55:26 PM

I look forward to the results of your experiments with DF41.


Originally, it wasn't my intention to publish the results, as I said I'm only testing software that we use for R-Z18 and R-DF49, but as R-DF41 proved a nice testing environment and as it might be helpful persuading people to order a DF41 test, I have made the test results on DF41 available on the web.

I will keep it up to date as long as it is considered useful. But please note, this is the output of a first experimental new version of an existing piece of software. There might be a few issues here and there initially. And there's no guaranteed delivery. Oh, and the manual (explanation and things) is being worked on. $:-)

Goto L257.org and select Y-DNA Profiles DF41+ in the menu on the left (please refer to the sheet as such and do NOT use the URL from your browser in discussions (the URL is too complex for technical reasons and will change in future).

BTW, this result sheet is best viewed on a wide screen. In Europe, these screens are called HD (High Definition) and are 1920 pixels wide. If you don't have such a screen, then this is the moment to consider getting one, as effective analysis requires the widest screen one get get. Oh and don't worry about the price, the cheapest version will do; you do not need a calibrated photo/video editing grade screen for DNA-analysis. $:-)

Now I hope the background of my remark is obvious: DYS504=16. The questions is: is this so with all profiles in all clusters of R-DF41 ??


WOW! Mommy, I want one of those for Christmas.

Yes about DYS504, but I'll let the rest of the group find the answer themselves.

Am I correct in assuming that the McCown/Walker cluster is so named because McCown is closest to modal, and Walker (that's me) is the conspicuous odd-ball with DYS459 = 9-9, the only L745- so far in DF41+ with those markers? Anybody have any insight into that?

Thanks for giving me the lead-in to ask something I've been dying to.

Larry Walker
DF41+, L744/746/745-


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on September 26, 2012, 11:16:35 PM

WOW! Mommy, I want one of those for Christmas.

Yes about DYS504, but I'll let the rest of the group find the answer themselves.

Am I correct in assuming that the McCown/Walker cluster is so named because McCown is closest to modal, and Walker (that's me) is the conspicuous odd-ball with DYS459 = 9-9, the only L745- so far in DF41+ with those markers? Anybody have any insight into that?

Thanks for giving me the lead-in to ask something I've been dying to.

Larry Walker
DF41+, L744/746/745-

Well, it's currently only my personal naming ......  $:-)

I used McCown as they've invested significantly in SNP-testing and bring in a lot of 111 marker profiles. If one lives in the U106/Z18-world, one tends to value that.

The name Walker being added refers to what could evolve to be a small (possibly Scottish) sub-group of the McCown/Walker Cluster with its own distinguishing DYS565=11/DYS394=15/DYS464c=16 motif. Walker would then be the McCown of this sub-group. Please note I said "could evolve". We need more profiles to learn if this is really an existing sub-group.

There's nothing special about your DYS459b=9 marker. You don't have the partial ChrY deletion that is sometimes implied by DYS459a=DYS459b. The only thing is, it could have emerged in two ways: (1) a copy from DYS459a to DYS459b or (2) a -1 mutation in DYS459b independently. The difference is impossible to detect so most likely, you'll never find out with any type of test. See it as just a mutation like any other.

BTW, about DYS504, what IS the answer (I promise: I will not tell the rest) ? $:-)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on September 27, 2012, 12:34:58 AM
Quote

The name Walker being added refers to what could evolve to be a small (possibly Scottish) sub-group of the McCown/Walker Cluster with its own distinguishing DYS565=11/DYS394=15/DYS464c=16 motif. Walker would then be the McCown of this sub-group. Please note I said "could evolve". We need more profiles to learn if this is really an existing sub-group.

Ah so - beyond Y67. A compelling reason for getting some of my matches to upgrade to Y111.

Quote

There's nothing special about your DYS459b=9 marker. You don't have the partial ChrY deletion that is sometimes implied by DYS459a=DYS459b. The only thing is, it could have emerged in two ways: (1) a copy from DYS459a to DYS459b or (2) a -1 mutation in DYS459b independently. The difference is impossible to detect so most likely, you'll never find out with any type of test. See it as just a mutation like any other.


I wasn't thinking that kind of special. I had just recalled seeing a discussion someplace regarding a group in or close to Mike's 41-1426 where they were talking about 9-9 vs 9-10 and something about one probably being more Irish and the other more Scottish. It was one of those things I read but neglected to bookmark and couldn't find again later.

It's nice to know that I am not more weird than I already knew though  }:>))


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on September 27, 2012, 01:33:39 AM

Quote
The name Walker being added refers to what could evolve to be a small (possibly Scottish) sub-group of the McCown/Walker Cluster with its own distinguishing DYS565=11/DYS394=15/DYS464c=16 motif. Walker would then be the McCown of this sub-group. Please note I said "could evolve". We need more profiles to learn if this is really an existing sub-group.

DYS394 aka DYS19 ?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on September 27, 2012, 02:52:43 AM
Quote
The name Walker being added refers to what could evolve to be a small (possibly Scottish) sub-group of the McCown/Walker Cluster with its own distinguishing DYS565=11/DYS394=15/DYS464c=16 motif. Walker would then be the McCown of this sub-group. Please note I said "could evolve". We need more profiles to learn if this is really an existing sub-group.
More profiles:

3 of 3
50301 Morrison, 121894 Morrison, 32434 Morrison, 240201 Walker, 52062 Miller, 82890 Morrison, 165908 Morrison, 45346 Morrison, 205235 Morrison, 163558 Morrison, 96950 Miller
2 of 3
156437 McBirnie, 170555 McBurney


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 27, 2012, 03:56:04 AM
@Peter

Thanks! Nice work.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 27, 2012, 03:57:09 AM
Well, once again, no new DF41 results, and no new SNP test results period.

Sigh . . .

Maybe tomorrow?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 27, 2012, 04:21:39 AM
@Peter

Thanks! Nice work.

I second that, it's nice also that it shows wether a person is a member of the project or not. This at least gives us a clear enough list of people we need to "track down" to get to join.

I would add though that 42048 (Erwin) in the other group at the end is confirmed as DF41-.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on September 27, 2012, 09:20:58 AM
Quote
The name Walker being added refers to what could evolve to be a small (possibly Scottish) sub-group of the McCown/Walker Cluster with its own distinguishing DYS565=11/DYS394=15/DYS464c=16 motif. Walker would then be the McCown of this sub-group. Please note I said "could evolve". We need more profiles to learn if this is really an existing sub-group.
More profiles:

3 of 3
50301 Morrison, 121894 Morrison, 32434 Morrison, 240201 Walker, 52062 Miller, 82890 Morrison, 165908 Morrison, 45346 Morrison, 205235 Morrison, 163558 Morrison, 96950 Miller
2 of 3
156437 McBirnie, 170555 McBurney


The Morrisons are hiding away in their own web site. If anybody feels like getting the profiles and SNP-tests (if they are given) from there, I would be delighted. On the other hand, I guess three Morrison will do and one other, kit 121894, appears to be in the Scottish DNA Project. The problem is, that project takes half an eternity to download. At least it currently still does; I do hope things will stay that way.

I *do* hope, somebody will find the inspiration to approach the candidates in the potential Walker Group (Millers, McBurney and Johnston) and try convince them to order DF41 and join the project. Please note: I'm not 100% certain McBurney and Johnston have not already tested DF41 or any other SNPs.


Ah so - beyond Y67. A compelling reason for getting some of my matches to upgrade to Y111.


Yes, it would be a good idea to try to get one representative of each surname to upgrade to 111 markers. The results might tell more about the structure of the group and thus about the relationship between the individual members.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on September 27, 2012, 10:11:36 AM
For all who care, I've had a look at the McCown/Walker Cluster and found the following candidates. I do not know if any of these kits have already ordered a DF41 test.

NrKit#Y-SeachNameCountry
121624EE2U5McCownIreland
245814ZJZ3JMcCune
3151802--McCuneScotland
494904YTJK2WilsonEngland
5216478YRSCMcCleland
6109546SKRHHMcClellandScotland
725146YSZ3MMcClellan
8149709--McLelland
995276N7KNNMcLellan
101539564PCF6SmithEngland
1127212--SmithEngland
1225971--Ramsey
1330720GGTHCElderScotland
14933996P3NEEdwards
15147864--Webb ?
16187514--Braughton
17106240--HenryN-Ireland
1818391GXK6GChamberlain ?

Few of these kits have done much SNP-testing, but the match to the McCown/Walker Motif is reasonable at first sight; I haven't checked the GD's (!!).

I guess, people interested in the history of R-DF41 will find the last two surnames fascinating. $:-)

OK, and now back to R-Z18 !!


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 27, 2012, 11:15:41 AM
Of that list I only see the following in the L21 project
  • 21647 (McCleland) -- DF21-, L21+, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-
  • 93399 (Edwards) -- L21+ (no other SNP's tested)

Rich do you know if either have ordered DF41? I reckon McCleland would probably order it if was recommended to it, he's obviously done abit of SNP testing.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 27, 2012, 06:42:06 PM
Neither of them has it on order, but Miller, kit 96950, mentioned by Peter above, has DF41 on order and is simply awaiting the result in Batch 482 (due date 07 Nov 2012).


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 27, 2012, 06:51:46 PM
Of that list I only see the following in the L21 project
  • 21647 (McCleland) -- DF21-, L21+, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-
  • 93399 (Edwards) -- L21+ (no other SNP's tested)

Rich do you know if either have ordered DF41? I reckon McCleland would probably order it if was recommended to it, he's obviously done abit of SNP testing.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Okay, I just emailed both of them and asked them to order DF41.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 27, 2012, 07:48:46 PM
I also emailed kit 50358, who is listed by Peter as Laughlin, but whose surname is actually Quinn. His mdka's first name was Laughlin.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 27, 2012, 08:08:03 PM
I just emailed Baker, Ysearch GDC7F, and asked him to test for DF41. I advised him that I cannot guarantee the result. He only has 25 markers, so his resemblance to my cluster could be partly due to convergence, and he could be U106+.

If he tries it and gets a positive result, we'll know.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 27, 2012, 10:24:02 PM
Here are the people that are confirmed or that I suspect might be DF41+.

MacMillan looks like the loner right now but I noticed his 437 off-modal value matches the 1426 variety of people so maybe he was just an early branch from them.


f47694   MacMillan   R-L21/DF13/DF41*   41- unnassigned   Scotland, Outer Hebrides, Isle of Benbecula   Z7Z58
f176148   Duffy   R-L21/DF13/DF41*   41-1013   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Belfast   PP38U
f35550   Salmon   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1013   Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo   NQGP6
yVT2R6   Beddoes   R-L21   41-1123   England, West Midlands, Shropshire, Salop   VT2R6
yDX6FN   Chorn   zzL21suspect   41-1123   UK   DX6FN
f57563   Cooper   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1123   UK   4BN3G
f28470   Price   zzL21suspect   41-1123   Wales   NF2TH
f8988   Price   zzL21suspect   41-1123   Wales   YF3FG
f53479   Selfe   R-L21   41-1123   England, South West, Wiltshire   54XP8
f208061   Stephens   zzL21suspect   41-1123   zzzUnkOrigin   6A342
f212967   Stevens   zzL21suspect   41-1123   England   6ZRRA
f250145   Stevens   R-L21   41-1123   UK   8HXQH
fN40760   Stevens   R-L21   41-1123   UK   358E9
f59080   Stevens   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1123   zzzUnkOrigin   HX9ZF
f88034   Stevens   zzL21suspect   41-1123   zzzUnkOrigin   S23BC
f124786   Stevens   zzL21suspect   41-1123   zzzUnkOrigin   X45FC
f191492   Stevens   zzL21suspect   41-1123   zzzUnkOrigin   WW4G3
f163684   Webb   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1123   England   WEKT6
f48142   Webb   zzL21suspect   41-1123   UK   T4QRS
f222670   Bismire   R-L21   41-1411   England, London, Middlesex   5JWWU
yPXRQ3   Bismire   R-L21   41-1411   England, London, Middlesex   PXRQ3
fN67581   Bontron-Major   R-L21   41-1411   France, Franche-Comté, Doubs, Montussaint   GGWAD
f85107   Dugger   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1411   zzzUnkOrigin   FT8A4
f142157   Dwyer   zzL21suspect   41-1411   zzzUnkOrigin   8P6RY
f92380   Hall   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1411   Ireland   
f35212   McCrere   R-L21/DF13/DF41*   41-1411   Isle of Man (in Irish Sea near Scotland)   ZYWYP
f38965   McCrere   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1411   UK   877X8
f55021   McCrere   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1411   UK   
f181546   Nuckolls   R-L21   41-1411   zzzUnkOrigin   5GCFR
f105975   Russell   R-L21   41-1411   zzzUnkOrigin   V4WEE
f34424   Russell   R-L21   41-1411   zzzUnkOrigin   7GQ8X
f130615   Barton   zzL21suspect   41-1426C*   zzzUnkOrigin   
f223382   Barton   zzL21suspect   41-1426C*   zzzUnkOrigin   
fN12980   Bratin   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Kilskeery Parish   RTVE4
f211437   Bratton   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Ireland   GKRCZ
f103173   Cannon   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   England, London   B2BQH
f227064   Gordon   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Scotland   
f145473   Major   R-L21   41-1426C*   zzzUnkOrigin   TBWE6
f75460   Majors   R-L21   41-1426C*   zzzUnkOrigin   6BZ7V
f170555   McBurney   zzL21suspect   41-1426C*   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Armagh, Ballysheilmore   WFPQ5
f156437   McBurney   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Scotland   
f21647   McCleland   R-L21   41-1426C*   zzzUnkOrigin   8YRSC
f52062   Miller   R-L21   41-1426C*   Ireland   6YU4P
f96950   Miller   R-L21   41-1426C*   zzzUnkOrigin   Z4EKZ
f32434   Morrison   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Scotland   2C6SB
f221537   Tait   zzL21suspect   41-1426C*   Scotland   
f240201   Walker   R-L21/DF13/DF41*   41-1426C*   Scotland   N7ANP
f4500   Wilson   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Ireland, Ulster   NX6G9
f20194   Wright   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Ireland   3HNCS
f18391   Chamberlain   R-L21   41-1426C-A   zzzUnkOrigin   GXK6G
f93399   Edwards   R-L21   41-1426C-A   zzzUnkOrigin   6P3NE
f22849   McCown   zzL21suspect   41-1426C-A   Ireland   CD29Y
f1503   McCown   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C-A   Ireland   HZUXJ
f29705   McCown   R-L21/DF13/DF41*   41-1426C-A   Ireland, Ulster   P8ZR6
f78799   Smith   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C-A   UK   WS99W
f213376   zzzUnknown   zzL21suspect   41-1426C-A   Scotland   
f209033   Gilbert   zzL21suspect   41-744- unassigned   zzzUnkOrigin   HKE7J
f225950   Kerochiou   R-L21   41-744- unassigned   France, Bretagne, Finistère, Morlaix   
f58641   Rioux   zzL21suspect   41-744- unassigned   France   
f239315   Thompson   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744   41-744- unassigned   England, North West, Merseyside, Liverpool   D779H
f75703   Webb   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744*   41-744- unassigned   England   4XUWU


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on September 27, 2012, 10:28:02 PM

The Morrisons are hiding away in their own web site. If anybody feels like getting the profiles and SNP-tests (if they are given) from there, I would be delighted.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Some SNP results and Y67 were in my spreadsheet attached to my off-list response. A direct link to the Morrison results spreadsheet (non-standard but useable, no SNP info) is:
http://morrisondna.x10hosting.com/morrison/public_html/Morrison%20DNA%20Project.htm (http://morrisondna.x10hosting.com/morrison/public_html/Morrison%20DNA%20Project.htm)
Group Q is the only one you are interested in there. They are all highly likely DF41+. The rest of the Morrisons are just as likely DF41-.

Quote
I *do* hope, somebody will find the inspiration to approach the candidates in the potential Walker Group (Millers, McBurney and Johnston) and try convince them to order DF41 and join the project. Please note: I'm not 100% certain McBurney and Johnston have not already tested DF41 or any other SNPs.

We are chipping away at it.



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on September 27, 2012, 10:48:51 PM
For all who care, I've had a look at the McCown/Walker Cluster and found the following candidates. I do not know if any of these kits have already ordered a DF41 test.

NrKit#Y-SeachNameCountry
121624EE2U5McCownIreland
245814ZJZ3JMcCune
3151802--McCuneScotland
494904YTJK2WilsonEngland
5216478YRSCMcCleland
6109546SKRHHMcClellandScotland
725146YSZ3MMcClellan
8149709--McLelland
995276N7KNNMcLellan
101539564PCF6SmithEngland
1127212--SmithEngland
1225971--Ramsey
1330720GGTHCElderScotland
14933996P3NEEdwards
15147864--Webb ?
16187514--Braughton
17106240--HenryN-Ireland
1818391GXK6GChamberlain ?

Few of these kits have done much SNP-testing, but the match to the McCown/Walker Motif is reasonable at first sight; I haven't checked the GD's (!!).

I guess, people interested in the history of R-DF41 will find the last two surnames fascinating. $:-)

OK, and now back to R-Z18 !!


You just touched one of my pet peeves. Does anybody else find the Y-search robot blocker as difficult as I do? I typically have to look at 20 or more of those distorted AND blurred visual puzzels before I can find one that I can decipher. I need a robot to get past their &_&^)) robot blocker! It would not be so bad if it would let me stay in once I got there, but having to go through the entire procedure again for each search is a real pain. Am I missing something?

Until I find better access, Y-search just doesn't exist for me. The view ain't worth the trip.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 28, 2012, 07:32:37 AM
There are a handful of DF41 results this morning. Unless I miscounted, there were nine. The only positive was Miller, kit 96950.

Hamon, kit 84034 (France), and Kepler, kit 88876 (Germany), both of whom were in the DF41 section of Alex Williamson's last NJ tree, are both DF41-.

There are still 25 DF41 tests in Pending Lab Results and one in Pending Shipment to Lab.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on September 28, 2012, 08:08:31 AM
There are a handful of DF41 results this morning. Unless I miscounted, there were nine. The only positive was Miller, kit 96950.

Hamon, kit 84034 (France), and Kepler, kit 88876 (Germany), both of whom were in the DF41 section of Alex Williamson's last NJ tree, are both DF41-.

There are still 25 DF41 tests in Pending Lab Results and one in Pending Shipment to Lab.

Those two results are actually quite usefull, they are right in what we reckon was a spurious branch in Alex's diagram. Given that they are both negative as was Erwin we should see a major redrawing of the tree around the Stewarts in the next iteration.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on September 28, 2012, 11:27:38 AM
I also emailed kit 50358, who is listed by Peter as Laughlin, but whose surname is actually Quinn. His mdka's first name was Laughlin.

OK, sorry, repaired the issue. Initially I was more concerned with my software than with all of these names, some of which are so Irish they tend to be unpronounceable for me anyway. $:-)

I just emailed Baker, Ysearch GDC7F, and asked him to test for DF41. I advised him that I cannot guarantee the result. He only has 25 markers, so his resemblance to my cluster could be partly due to convergence, and he could be U106+.

If he tries it and gets a positive result, we'll know.

Well, that would mean, you are at the bottom of the list of suggestions. That should never be the case, of course. I've added a few new ones at the bottom of your cluster. The match to your cluster's motif will tend to get weaker as we go down the list, I'm afraid.

I'm sure, you'll find the last two cases fascinating. $:-)

I might be able to offer some help with the last one.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on September 28, 2012, 01:56:06 PM


Peter,

Just looked at your latest. I'll settle for sub-cluster for now, but.....

The Flux Network Program may tell us different the next time it is run, but a bit of simplistic creative number crunching and my intuition lead me to believe that Walker/Morrison is just a wee bit older which would make McCown the subcluster.
}:>))



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 28, 2012, 03:10:31 PM
I also emailed kit 50358, who is listed by Peter as Laughlin, but whose surname is actually Quinn. His mdka's first name was Laughlin.

OK, sorry, repaired the issue. Initially I was more concerned with my software than with all of these names, some of which are so Irish they tend to be unpronounceable for me anyway. $:-)

I just emailed Baker, Ysearch GDC7F, and asked him to test for DF41. I advised him that I cannot guarantee the result. He only has 25 markers, so his resemblance to my cluster could be partly due to convergence, and he could be U106+.

If he tries it and gets a positive result, we'll know.

Well, that would mean, you are at the bottom of the list of suggestions. That should never be the case, of course. I've added a few new ones at the bottom of your cluster. The match to your cluster's motif will tend to get weaker as we go down the list, I'm afraid.

I'm sure, you'll find the last two cases fascinating. $:-)

I might be able to offer some help with the last one.


I really appreciate your help, Peter. French, kit 102653, was one of the reasons I went ahead and tested for Z253 awhile back, because he is Z253+. So, he isn't really in our cluster after all.

I would bet money (but I won't) that guy from the Netherlands will turn out to be U106+ in the end.

I haven't had a chance to check out those Smiths.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on September 28, 2012, 03:30:38 PM
I also emailed kit 50358, who is listed by Peter as Laughlin, but whose surname is actually Quinn. His mdka's first name was Laughlin.

OK, sorry, repaired the issue. Initially I was more concerned with my software than with all of these names, some of which are so Irish they tend to be unpronounceable for me anyway. $:-)

I just emailed Baker, Ysearch GDC7F, and asked him to test for DF41. I advised him that I cannot guarantee the result. He only has 25 markers, so his resemblance to my cluster could be partly due to convergence, and he could be U106+.

If he tries it and gets a positive result, we'll know.

Well, that would mean, you are at the bottom of the list of suggestions. That should never be the case, of course. I've added a few new ones at the bottom of your cluster. The match to your cluster's motif will tend to get weaker as we go down the list, I'm afraid.

I'm sure, you'll find the last two cases fascinating. $:-)

I might be able to offer some help with the last one.


I really appreciate your help, Peter. French, kit 102653, was one of the reasons I went ahead and tested for Z253 awhile back, because he is Z253+. So, he isn't really in our cluster after all.

I would bet money (but I won't) that guy from the Netherlands will turn out to be U106+ in the end.

I haven't had a chance to check out those Smiths.

I must be a bit more careful and check things better before making suggestions. My impression was these people hadn't done much SNP testing.

BTW, if there'a another cluster of look-alikes on the other side of the fence, then testing will be complicated. If French is Z253+, then some of the others may be as well.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 28, 2012, 07:10:06 PM
I'm wondering why Self, kit 53479, hasn't received his DF41 result yet. He ordered the test about the same time that Webb and I did. He's in our cluster and is a 66/67 match for Cooper. It's kind of aggravating.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on September 28, 2012, 08:54:07 PM
I'm wondering why Self, kit 53479, hasn't received his DF41 result yet. He ordered the test about the same time that Webb and I did. He's in our cluster and is a 66/67 match for Cooper. It's kind of aggravating.

Has he ordered his test with FT-Delay ??  $:-)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 28, 2012, 08:56:42 PM
I'm wondering why Self, kit 53479, hasn't received his DF41 result yet. He ordered the test about the same time that Webb and I did. He's in our cluster and is a 66/67 match for Cooper. It's kind of aggravating.

Has he ordered his test with FT-Delay ??  $:-)


Yeah. He's still under the original predicted due date (24 October), but Webb and I got ours two weeks ago.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 29, 2012, 05:45:34 AM
BTW, I guess it sounded like I was complaining. I wasn't, really. FTDNA has been generally really fast with the results of SNP tests lately. I appreciate that, especially considering that SNP test results, up until quite recently, used to take a couple of months or more. I was just expressing my aggravation that Self's results didn't come in  with Webb's and mine. I am also anxiously awaiting the rest of the DF41 results.

I'm hoping we pick up a couple of unexpected positives from out in left field that will broaden the picture.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on September 30, 2012, 12:11:58 AM
I may have overlooked it before, but I just noticed that 92380 Hall tested L563-. Pickings are getting pretty slim for L563 candidates with both Hall and Dugger out.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: k.o.gran on September 30, 2012, 06:01:07 AM
I may have overlooked it before, but I just noticed that 92380 Hall tested L563-. Pickings are getting pretty slim for L563 candidates with both Hall and Dugger out.

We are waiting for Nuckolls' L563 result. If that comes back negative as well, we are out of candidates for now in my opinion.

-Kai


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on September 30, 2012, 01:40:38 PM
I may have overlooked it before, but I just noticed that 92380 Hall tested L563-. Pickings are getting pretty slim for L563 candidates with both Hall and Dugger out.

We are waiting for Nuckolls' L563 result. If that comes back negative as well, we are out of candidates for now in my opinion.

-Kai

222670 Bismire and N67581 Bontron-Major?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on September 30, 2012, 02:15:17 PM
I may have overlooked it before, but I just noticed that 92380 Hall tested L563-. Pickings are getting pretty slim for L563 candidates with both Hall and Dugger out.

We are waiting for Nuckolls' L563 result. If that comes back negative as well, we are out of candidates for now in my opinion.

-Kai

222670 Bismire and N67581 Bontron-Major?

I have written both of them to try to get them to test for DF41, but I haven't heard from either.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on October 01, 2012, 10:19:32 PM
Peter has done a lot on his DF41 spreadsheet in the last couple of days. He has just about doubled the sample size and four clusters are coming together nicely, three of which closely correspond to Mike's 41-1426C, 41-1426C-A, and 41-1123. I find the fourth cluster most interesting as it includes elements of Mike's 41-1411 which was fraying at the edges along with some "problem" samples in a cluster which seems to be coming together. This is beginning to define areas within DF41 where we may want to look into some deeper testing for SNP discovery at some point in the future when we can go beyond the current WTY.

One question Peter, what is the significance of the light blue shading over some of the test results?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 02, 2012, 04:06:04 AM
There are five DF41 results this morning, all negative. Hebert, kit 4568, got his DF41 result, and, of course, it is negative. I am disappointed about that.

Many folks who were in the DF41 section of Alex Williamson's last NJ tree have tested DF41-. Apparently it's a tighter and more exclusive subclade than that tree indicated.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on October 02, 2012, 06:15:15 AM
One question Peter, what is the significance of the light blue shading over some of the test results?

The shading, it's grey, honest $:-),  indicates it's an "implied result" and not the result of any actual testing. E.g. if somebody is tested DF41+, then this imples DF13+ according to the Y-Tree and if he has not done an actual DF13 test, then the "+" in this column will be shaded.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on October 02, 2012, 06:46:39 AM
There are five DF41 results this morning, all negative. Hebert, kit 4568, got his DF41 result, and, of course, it is negative. I am disappointed about that.

Many folks who were in the DF41 section of Alex Williamson's last NJ tree have tested DF41-. Apparently it's a tighter and more exclusive subclade than that tree indicated.

Well in some ways a negative is just as good as a positive. It shows again though how important SNP testing is to prove membership/closeness to STR clusters. It will be interesting to see what Alex's next NJ tree is like.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Forsythe on October 02, 2012, 07:28:56 AM
Rich, are these DF41 results received in batch 482...not that I am holding out for a positive result, but it would be nice to know one way or the other..


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on October 02, 2012, 08:35:15 AM
There are five DF41 results this morning, all negative. Hebert, kit 4568, got his DF41 result, and, of course, it is negative. I am disappointed about that.

Don't be too disappointed. It's most unfortunate that the test was negative, but mainly so for Mr. Hebert, as he hasn't found his "home" yet; for you it serves well in determining the size/age of your cluster. Possibly your cluster is much smaller, i.e. more selective, and/or the part your side of the DYS385=11,11 fence is.

The general pattern I see is of SNP-defined clades that consist of much smaller/younger clusters that are unrelated i.e. have completely different defining motifs. It's a very interesting question what phenomenon causes this. Is this because the clusters are a result of selection, e.g. due to migration of certain sub-groups only, or is this a fundamental property of the family tree of mankind. My personal impression is, the latter is just a wee bit more likely.

Many folks who were in the DF41 section of Alex Williamson's last NJ tree have tested DF41-. Apparently it's a tighter and more exclusive subclade than that tree indicated.

I would be a little cautious with the generated trees. If you look at the result sheet of DF41, it is very clear it consists of a number of unrelated tight clusters and a few "outliers" (with all due respect) "under" a much older SNP. This implies that there is no such thing as DF41-ishness, at least not in the 111 markers we currently use (most likely DYS534=14, DYS504=16 just is too weak a motif). If a common pattern does not exist, then no tool (automated or grey-cell) will be able to identify it or its implication (a profile being a DF41 candidate).

The best approach of finding new DF41's will IMHO be to work inside out from the identified cluster patterns, that will find all related cluster members, complemented by an approach to test "random" "starish" L21, to find new clusters and their members.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 02, 2012, 09:07:20 AM
... The best approach of finding new DF41's will IMHO be to work inside out from the identified cluster patterns, that will find all related cluster members, complemented by an approach to test "random" "starish" L21, to find new clusters and their members.
The first approach is always rational for SNP testing.

The second approach, that I emphasized, is what I call exploratory testing. Not everyone has the inclination or funds for doing this, but we are indebted to the explorers who lead the way. In my opinion, DF41's wide GD range makes open the probability that DF41 is quite old. This is why I've depicted it as a "Bix Six" SNP for DF13 people. I recommend that one person from every major DF13+ cluster test for DF41.  We already know that 1511-T2 (Irish II) and 1030Sc (Scots) are negative but there are many more reasonably firm clusters with DF13+ DF21- L513- DF49- Z253- Z255- that haven't tested for DF41.

I don't know what's in Geno 2.0. I sure hope DF41 and DF49 are in it. If not, they will have a bad stroke of luck timing-wise.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on October 02, 2012, 10:08:52 AM
I recommend that one person from every major DF13+ cluster test for DF41.  We already know that 1511-T2 (Irish II) and 1030Sc (Scots) are negative but there are many more reasonably firm clusters with DF13+ DF21- L513- DF49- Z253- Z255- that haven't tested for DF41.

Would it be an idea to publish a summary list of all currently "starish" DF13 clusters with for each the DYS534 and DYS504 of the modal and a short description of  the defining motif ? This would help to follow the testing process.

BTW, same question for DF49 in the topic concerned (no key markers there afaia). $:-)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 02, 2012, 11:03:39 AM
I recommend that one person from every major DF13+ cluster test for DF41.  We already know that 1511-T2 (Irish II) and 1030Sc (Scots) are negative but there are many more reasonably firm clusters with DF13+ DF21- L513- DF49- Z253- Z255- that haven't tested for DF41.

Would it be an idea to publish a summary list of all currently "starish" DF13 clusters with for each the DYS534 and DYS504 of the modal and a short description of  the defining motif ? This would help to follow the testing process.

BTW, same question for DF49 in the topic concerned (no key markers there afaia). $:-)


Exactly. That's the whole purpose of why I post that big L21 spreadsheet - to facilitate this process. All of the (speculative) varieties (that I know of), their STR signatures, etc., etc. are published with detail. Folks like Alex W use this as the data for network diagramming charts, etc. Robert C uses it as a base for his prediction tool. He, along with others, point out things I'm missing or need correction.

I do a pure off-modal STR and GD calculation "eye test" look at and create speculative varieties. The reason I'm on the L21 plus Yahoo Group is post this data, answer questions and make adjustments.

I'm not doing a good job of looking at 68-111 markers though (they are in the spreadsheet too). Mostly, they just affirmatively support the 1-67 defined varieties, but some are key in some circumstances.

Here are the firm varieties that have at least one DF13* (DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41-) person in them. This means they are all DF41-, so no need for further Big Six exploratory testing within the following.

13-1511A-T2: 565<=11 385b>=15 447<=24 (391=10 439<=11 442=13) {DF13*} [IrishII]
13-1030Sc: 391<=10 449>=30 444>=11 413a<=22 531>=12 GataH4=12 YCAIIb=24or22 {DF13* (L743)} [Scots/STR47]
13-526: 641=11 413a<=22 449>=30 570>=19 641=11 413a<=22 {DF13* L526} [Lurz]
13-1111E: 388=11 439=11 392=14 (459=9,9 442=11) {DF13* L583] [Ashkenazi?]
13-14611: 450=6 393=14 565=11 449=30 (389i=14) {DF13*} [Kenyon,McPherson]
13-1130-A1*: 511=11 449>=30 531=12 385a>=12 19>=15 {DF13*}
13-1130-A1-A: 511=11 449>=30 531=12 385a>=12 19>=15 576=17 464a=14 {DF13*}
13-1114: 520=11 444=11 442>=13 607=14 456=<=15 {DF13*} [Phillips,Lewis]
13-14611: 450=6 393=14 565=11 449=30 (389i=14) {DF13*} [Kenyon,McPherson]
13-1810-W2: 448<=18 391<=10 456<=15 464=15,16,17,17 {DF13* L643} [WalesII/Cadwgon]
13-9926: 459=9,9 447=26 448=18 449=30 456=17 534=13 {DF13*} [Edgecomb]
13-111311: 617>=13 641>=11 406s1>=11 391<=10 {DF13*}
13-2323: 390=25 19=15 439=13 389ii-i=17 458=18 YCAII=23,23 {DF13* L564}
13-101922: 460=10 YCAAIIb=19,22 {DF13*} [Durall]
13-1026: H4=10 447>=26 390>=25 449<=27 {DF13*} [Dowell,McDaniel]
13-1214: 393=12 437=14 448=18 {DF13*}
13-9919-A1: YCAII=19,19 459b=9,9 640=12 & 395s1=16,17 520=22 444=13 481=24 {DF13*} [McCain,Henry]
13-9919-A3: YCAII=19,19 459=9,9 640=12 & 511=11 (617=11) {DF13*}
13-9919-B: YCA11b=19,19 459=9,9 & 531=9 391=10 {DF13*}
13- unnassigned: No cluster found {DF13*}




Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 02, 2012, 02:51:15 PM
Rich, are these DF41 results received in batch 482...not that I am holding out for a positive result, but it would be nice to know one way or the other..

Your result hasn't come in yet.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on October 02, 2012, 04:58:52 PM
I recommend that one person from every major DF13+ cluster test for DF41.  We already know that 1511-T2 (Irish II) and 1030Sc (Scots) are negative but there are many more reasonably firm clusters with DF13+ DF21- L513- DF49- Z253- Z255- that haven't tested for DF41.

Would it be an idea to publish a summary list of all currently "starish" DF13 clusters with for each the DYS534 and DYS504 of the modal and a short description of  the defining motif ? This would help to follow the testing process.

BTW, same question for DF49 in the topic concerned (no key markers there afaia). $:-)


Exactly. That's the whole purpose of why I post that big L21 spreadsheet - to facilitate this process. All of the (speculative) varieties (that I know of), their STR signatures, etc., etc. are published with detail. Folks like Alex W use this as the data for network diagramming charts, etc. Robert C uses it as a base for his prediction tool. He, along with others, point out things I'm missing or need correction.

I do a pure off-modal STR and GD calculation "eye test" look at and create speculative varieties. The reason I'm on the L21 plus Yahoo Group is post this data, answer questions and make adjustments.

I'm not doing a good job of looking at 68-111 markers though (they are in the spreadsheet too). Mostly, they just affirmatively support the 1-67 defined varieties, but some are key in some circumstances.

Oh, I'm sorry to have asked. I'm well aware of your efforts, but not particularly fond of going through mega-spreadsheets looking for information. Therefore my question for a shorter summary list.

Here are the firm varieties that have at least one DF13* (DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41-) person in them. This means they are all DF41-, so no need for further Big Six exploratory testing within the following.

13-1511A-T2: 565<=11 385b>=15 447<=24 (391=10 439<=11 442=13) {DF13*} [IrishII]
13-1030Sc: 391<=10 449>=30 444>=11 413a<=22 531>=12 GataH4=12 YCAIIb=24or22 {DF13* (L743)} [Scots/STR47]
13-526: 641=11 413a<=22 449>=30 570>=19 641=11 413a<=22 {DF13* L526} [Lurz]
13-1111E: 388=11 439=11 392=14 (459=9,9 442=11) {DF13* L583] [Ashkenazi?]
13-14611: 450=6 393=14 565=11 449=30 (389i=14) {DF13*} [Kenyon,McPherson]
13-1130-A1*: 511=11 449>=30 531=12 385a>=12 19>=15 {DF13*}
13-1130-A1-A: 511=11 449>=30 531=12 385a>=12 19>=15 576=17 464a=14 {DF13*}
13-1114: 520=11 444=11 442>=13 607=14 456=<=15 {DF13*} [Phillips,Lewis]
13-14611: 450=6 393=14 565=11 449=30 (389i=14) {DF13*} [Kenyon,McPherson]
13-1810-W2: 448<=18 391<=10 456<=15 464=15,16,17,17 {DF13* L643} [WalesII/Cadwgon]
13-9926: 459=9,9 447=26 448=18 449=30 456=17 534=13 {DF13*} [Edgecomb]
13-111311: 617>=13 641>=11 406s1>=11 391<=10 {DF13*}
13-2323: 390=25 19=15 439=13 389ii-i=17 458=18 YCAII=23,23 {DF13* L564}
13-101922: 460=10 YCAAIIb=19,22 {DF13*} [Durall]
13-1026: H4=10 447>=26 390>=25 449<=27 {DF13*} [Dowell,McDaniel]
13-1214: 393=12 437=14 448=18 {DF13*}
13-9919-A1: YCAII=19,19 459b=9,9 640=12 & 395s1=16,17 520=22 444=13 481=24 {DF13*} [McCain,Henry]
13-9919-A3: YCAII=19,19 459=9,9 640=12 & 511=11 (617=11) {DF13*}
13-9919-B: YCA11b=19,19 459=9,9 & 531=9 391=10 {DF13*}
13- unnassigned: No cluster found {DF13*}


Thanks for the list. Would it be possible to make such a list of all clusters that ARE testing candidates for DF49/DF41 ? I DO hope that would be feasable.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 02, 2012, 05:29:01 PM
Oh, I'm sorry to have asked. I'm well aware of your efforts, but not particularly fond of going through mega-spreadsheets looking for information. Therefore my question for a shorter summary list.

I guess I shouldn't have emboldened that line. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you had a bad question or suggestion.

Sorry for the size of the spreadsheet. It is what it is. This is the negative side of having a lot of data. The positive is having a lot of data which leads to a lot of good analysis.

Thanks for the list. Would it be possible to make such a list of all clusters that ARE testing candidates for DF49/DF41 ? I DO hope that would be feasable.

It's bit of a speculative game to guess what clusters are the best probabilities for a particular SNP so I try to name the clusters independent of SNPs until it becomes clear where they fall.

This is not the answer you want to hear, but my position is that all of the Bix Six SNPs are quite old and have multiple STR signatures. Therefore every DF13+ has to consider testing for each of them. There is no one simple answer to which is the best sequence. It all depends. I can count 75 varieties within L21 that have not tested for DF41. There are several hundred people that I can't assign to any variety that haven't test for DF41.  I'm pretty willing to bet, because of DF41's multiple STR signatures, there will another DF41 variety or two or at least a person or two found in these vast untested groups... maybe the biggest DF41 variety is still waiting out there.

To help on that, in the spreadsheet, I created GD at 67 column and the ability to select a target haplotype to calculate the GD for everyone in the spreadsheet to that person. Then you can sort by the GD column and see a list of what people near you have tested for what GD's, or go further and look at everyone in the associated varieties/clusters.  There are some things that pop up, for example DF23+ (under DF49) people typically have high 481 values. L513 people so far have had high 617 values, etc., etc.

Here are the STR signatures for the varieties that have had at least one DF41+ result:

41- unnassigned: {DF41}
41-1013: 565=13 H4<=10 572<=10 520>=21 439>=14 570>=19 449>=29 {DF41}
41-1426C*: 392=14 447=26 437=16 (534<=14 481<=21 568=10) {DF41} [Bratton]
41-1426C-A: 392=14 447=26 437=16 (534<=14 481<=21 568=10) & 389ii-i=17 {DF41}
41-1411: 594=11 437=14 534=14 {L563}
41-1123: 390=23 385=11,11 447<=24 449<=28 464b=16 534<=14 413a<=22 (458=16 439<=11 ) {DF41} [Stevens]
41-744- unassigned: 565=11 GataH4=10 406s1=11 (446=14 456=15) {L744}
41-744-Stu: 565=11 GataH4=10 406s1=11 (446=14 456=15) {L745} [Stewart]


What other DF13+ types are high probabilities for DF41? I don't know and I don't think anyone can provide high reliability predictions on this. This fellow has made the problem more challenging:
f47694   MacMillan

His closest GD at 67 to anyone else who is DF41+ is GD=16. The highest is GD=28.  See what I mean about DF41 being old? As a comparison the highest GD from MacMillan to anyone in the L21 file is GD=41.

The closest GD of anyone in the L21 file, who has already confirmed DF41-, are these guys of GDs=14 and 15.
fN42297   Issemann   R-L21
f208276   MacKall   R-L21
f79666   Vose   R-L21
f169548   Warthen   R-L21
fN25036   Coody   R-L21
f122895   Dane   R-L21
f169872   Genested   zzL21suspect

There is no great STR signature in the above so I really can't highly recommend they test for DF41, just if they have an exploratory inclination.

In addition, each of the DF41 varieties listed above could probably have its edges explored, other than the Stewart/Stuart folks.

Probably, we should handle DF49 in a separate thread as the information flood just becomes too much.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: df.reynolds on October 02, 2012, 07:34:44 PM
This is not the answer you want to hear, but my position is that all of the Big Six SNPs are quite old and have multiple STR signatures. Therefore every DF13+ has to consider testing for each of them. There is no one simple answer to which is the best sequence. It all depends.

Would you possibly consider adding something like the above to the home page of the Yahoo L21 group?  To my mind, this is the cornerstone of successful R-DF13 testing strategy, and way too many people just don't get it.

--david


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on October 02, 2012, 07:36:18 PM
This is not the answer you want to hear, but my position is that all of the Bix Six SNPs are quite old and have multiple STR signatures. Therefore every DF13+ has to consider testing for each of them.

I agree with most of what you said, but I'm not sure about the need for everbody finding himself within R-L21 to test every SNP.

At least for those profiles that are in one of your clusters and those are the profiles I was talking about. Singletons are on their own for the time being, I guess.

Presumably, I wasn't all that clear in the description of my suggestion. I tried to propose to use negative logic: start off with a full list of the names of all DF13 clusters you have identified and then remove every cluster in which there's a profile that (1) has tested DF41- or (2) has tested positive for any of the other SNPs immediately downstream of L21. The result, a list of cluster names with no negative indications with respect to DF41, I would call candidates for speculative (!!) DF41 testing. Is that reasonable and doable ??

Conceptually one could even think of a more general solution in the form of a matrix with all cluster names along the vertical axis and all DF13 SNPs horizontally and then put a "+"-sign in each cell where at least one member of the cluster is positive for a SNP and a "-"-sign if there's at least one negative (and "+/-" if both happen to be the case). The interesting cells would have no sign and still be open for speculative testing of the SNP concerned. I guess publishing such a matrix would easily win you the Nobel Prize for SNP testing.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on October 02, 2012, 09:39:58 PM
...

I don't know what's in Geno 2.0. I sure hope DF41 and DF49 are in it. If not, they will have a bad stroke of luck timing-wise.

Check http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/message/11873

He says that DF13 and three of the big six (including DF49 & DF41) are NOT in Geno 2.0 }:>((


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mark Jost on October 02, 2012, 10:10:12 PM
Here is what I posted several days before that post.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/message/11829

MJost


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mark Jost on October 02, 2012, 10:16:23 PM
I will post some of the info

Geno2.0 replaces the existing DeepClade Test offered by FtDNA. There are almost 50 SNPs under L21 now, with around 10 to 12 of the newest discovered SNPs may not be included.
 
Here are the SNPs and dates added to the Draft Ytree which I complied to consider which ones may or may not have been added to the original Geno2.0 system with said 'Nov 2011' Cutoff.
 
L1066 8/10/2012
DF23 8/9/2012
DF63 6/26/2012
DF25 6/25/2012
DF41 6/13/2012
DF13 5/15/2012
Z255 3/9/2012
L908,L909 1/17/2012
L745 12/26/2011
L894,L895 12/5/2011
DF49 11/1/2011
L705,L706 10/24/2011

MJost


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on October 02, 2012, 10:52:01 PM
I will post some of the info

Geno2.0 replaces the existing DeepClade Test offered by FtDNA. There are almost 50 SNPs under L21 now, with around 10 to 12 of the newest discovered SNPs may not be included.
 
Here are the SNPs and dates added to the Draft Ytree which I complied to consider which ones may or may not have been added to the original Geno2.0 system with said 'Nov 2011' Cutoff.
 
L1066 8/10/2012
DF23 8/9/2012
DF63 6/26/2012
DF25 6/25/2012
DF41 6/13/2012
DF13 5/15/2012
Z255 3/9/2012
L908,L909 1/17/2012
L745 12/26/2011
L894,L895 12/5/2011
DF49 11/1/2011
L705,L706 10/24/2011

MJost

Sorry, Mark. I didn't mean to slight you, but Robert did seem a bit more difinitive that the five SNPs that you bolded were OUT, so I assumed that he might have later information.

What would really be nice would be if somebody from GENO 2.0 would confirm just which of the new SNPs in the 2012 ISOGG tree are included, and which are excluded. But that might hurt sales, and we can't have that }:>))


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: df.reynolds on October 03, 2012, 02:04:00 AM
No one knows what is included in Geno 2.0 but NatGeo and FTDNA, and they aren't telling.

SNPs for Geno 2.0 came from multiple sources, so just because an SNP was not a part of Thomas' list does not mean it is not in Geno 2.0. The SNP could have been included in the ~3500 from Chris Tyler-Smith, which allegedly were largely from 1000 Genomes data.

Also, the November cutoff for Thomas' data refers to the SNP being known to him (i.e., in his database), not being included in the draft tree, so some of the ones which people think may not have been included, may well have been.

And finally, even if the SNP was known to Thomas, and/or included in Chris Tyler-Smith's list, it may not be included in Geno 2.0, simply because they couldn't get the probe to work for it. Thousands of SNPs that were proposed for inclusion didn't make the final list.

I asked Bennett about this a while back, and bottom-line is that NatGeo is controlling the release of information about what is in Geno 2.0, and they have chosen to not say anything until Spencer Wells' paper is out. And no one seems to have a firm date for that. My suspicion is that the paper will be released when they start shipping the test kits, so hopefully no later than the end of the month.

I sincerely doubt sales enters into the equation at all. Out of the tens-of-thousands of kits that NatGeo expects to sell, the percentage of sales that might be influenced by precisely what Y-SNPs are included has to be vanishingly small.

Regards,
david


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Heber on October 03, 2012, 04:49:33 AM
My understanding like David, is that Spencer's detailed paper will be published before the product is shipped, i.e. end of  this month, so we should not have long to wait. It just might well be that they delay it until after the big Population Genomics conference on 7th November, when a raft of new interesting papers will be released including POBI and Ancestry Painting 2.0.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: df.reynolds on October 03, 2012, 05:21:36 AM
My understanding like David, is that Spencer's detailed paper will be published before the product is shipped, i.e. end of  this month, so we should not have long to wait. It just might well be that they delay it until after the big Population Genomics conference on 7th November, when a raft of new interesting papers will be released including POBI and Ancestry Painting 2.0.
The other factor is FTDNA's conference in Houston, 10-11 Nov. I would imagine Bennett would do his best to ensure that NatGeo releases the info prior to that.
--david


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mark Jost on October 03, 2012, 08:30:17 AM
@Larry, I wasnt slight by you. I just wished to point out my earlier post that had dates as it got lost in translation.

@DavidR, you are correct as to it is not public yet but a cut off date was defined. No status of any probes failing on any SNPs either.  I cann't even imagine how many other subclades that have new SNPs recently that wont be included either.

I thought that the Houston Nov meeting would be the keynote time to present the details allowed from NAT GEO. One can only hope.

MJost


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Forsythe on October 04, 2012, 07:27:22 AM
I’m starting to feel a little negative...

L21+ DF13+ Z255- Z253- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L226- L193- L159.2- L144- DF49- DF41- DF21-


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 04, 2012, 07:58:33 PM
I’m starting to feel a little negative...

L21+ DF13+ Z255- Z253- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L226- L193- L159.2- L144- DF49- DF41- DF21-


Yeah, I was sorry to see that, Mike.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 04, 2012, 08:04:17 PM
Rioux, kit 225950, and Le Guennec, kit N98545, both got DF41- results this morning, and that was disappointing. Both are Bretons.

We have yet to get a DF41+ who isn't Irish or British or of Irish or British y-line descent.

Lately, we haven't been having much luck at all.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 04, 2012, 09:25:12 PM
Rioux, kit 225950, and Le Guennec, kit N98545, both got DF41- results this morning, and that was disappointing. Both are Bretons. ...

I thought that they were 50/50 chances, at least. Well, this is why we test SNPs. The STRs just don't tell the story well enough.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on October 05, 2012, 12:58:50 AM
We have anxiously been hoping for some French DF41 testers.

It may be nothing, but we may be looking towards the wrong country on the continent. I looked at the extended Y67 matches (up to GD17) for a couple of us and found more and closer Spanish matches than French, though there were not many of either.

Just an idle speculation.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 05, 2012, 03:59:04 AM
Hebert was my closest non-Isles neighbor. He is French and tested DF41-. I don't really have any Iberian haplotype neighbors, not that I have seen yet, anyway.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 06, 2012, 08:59:13 AM
I contacted FTDNA and inquired about the delay in Self's result. Turns out they had to send him a new sample kit. Aarrgghh!


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 06, 2012, 09:50:31 AM
Maybe we'll get lucky sometime soon and get a breakout and a new source of DF41 recruits. It's not looking that way right now, however. DF41 is looking somewhat circumscribed and exclusive. I guess that is to be expected when you turn off the big DF13 motorway and onto a quiet country lane.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 06, 2012, 12:48:52 PM
Maybe we'll get lucky sometime soon and get a breakout and a new source of DF41 recruits. It's not looking that way right now, however. DF41 is looking somewhat circumscribed and exclusive. I guess that is to be expected when you turn off the big DF13 motorway and onto a quiet country lane.

It's still too early to call it a quiet country lane.  I agree with you that recruiting is essential. Hopefully the Geno 2.0 testing will turn up surprises.

When L513 got started it seemed like a fairly small group... and I guess it is when compared with all of R1b or something.  However, we can now reliably push the TMRCA back to at least 2500 years ago. L513 resides (not just MDKAs) in places like Sweden, Germany, France and the Netherlands, besides the Isles. We have one cluster that is mistaken for "9919" guys who are generally DF13*. We have another cluster that can be mistaken (Anatole K thought this) as M222 guys.

Once the momentum kicks in, you get more eyes and ears out there - more recruiters.  We now have 200 confirmed L513 people.  We have 990 more people that are pretty high odds (matches with clusters) to be L513+.  That reminds me, I need to complete a template email for recruiting these folks.



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on October 06, 2012, 05:38:17 PM
Maybe we'll get lucky sometime soon and get a breakout and a new source of DF41 recruits. It's not looking that way right now, however. DF41 is looking somewhat circumscribed and exclusive. I guess that is to be expected when you turn off the big DF13 motorway and onto a quiet country lane.

It probably would not hurt to add a list of surnames to the DF41 and Subclades project to give the searchers something to hit. Here is the list of surnames for the project as it stands now:

Braton, Brattin, Bratton, Cooper, Creer, Duffy, Dugger, Hall, MacMillan, McBirnie, McCown, McCrere, Miller, Mitchell, Morrison, Stevens, Stewart, Walker, Webb, Williams, Wilson


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 07, 2012, 09:16:40 AM
Maybe we'll get lucky sometime soon and get a breakout and a new source of DF41 recruits. It's not looking that way right now, however. DF41 is looking somewhat circumscribed and exclusive. I guess that is to be expected when you turn off the big DF13 motorway and onto a quiet country lane.

It's still too early to call it a quiet country lane.  I agree with you that recruiting is essential. Hopefully the Geno 2.0 testing will turn up surprises.

When L513 got started it seemed like a fairly small group... and I guess it is when compared with all of R1b or something.  However, we can now reliably push the TMRCA back to at least 2500 years ago. L513 resides (not just MDKAs) in places like Sweden, Germany, France and the Netherlands, besides the Isles. We have one cluster that is mistaken for "9919" guys who are generally DF13*. We have another cluster that can be mistaken (Anatole K thought this) as M222 guys.

Once the momentum kicks in, you get more eyes and ears out there - more recruiters.  We now have 200 confirmed L513 people.  We have 990 more people that are pretty high odds (matches with clusters) to be L513+.  That reminds me, I need to complete a template email for recruiting these folks.



I hope you're right and we start to see some more positive results. It just feels like a quiet country lane because so many guys are missing the exit onto it. ;-)

I have done what I can to get people to test for it. Some just won't, and of those that will, most thus far have gotten negative results. I'll keep trying, and I know Paul is trying, as well.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 07, 2012, 09:25:15 AM
Maybe we'll get lucky sometime soon and get a breakout and a new source of DF41 recruits. It's not looking that way right now, however. DF41 is looking somewhat circumscribed and exclusive. I guess that is to be expected when you turn off the big DF13 motorway and onto a quiet country lane.

It probably would not hurt to add a list of surnames to the DF41 and Subclades project to give the searchers something to hit. Here is the list of surnames for the project as it stands now:

Braton, Brattin, Bratton, Cooper, Creer, Duffy, Dugger, Hall, MacMillan, McBirnie, McCown, McCrere, Miller, Mitchell, Morrison, Stevens, Stewart, Walker, Webb, Williams, Wilson


Maybe Paul will do that. It sounds like a good idea.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on October 07, 2012, 04:47:53 PM
The project profile did include some of those surnames, I've updated it though with Larry's more comprehensive list. I've also added them to the "public webpage" of the site. This should hopefully be picked up over time by the likes of Google search engine etc.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 08, 2012, 06:44:01 PM
Self got his new kit but as of yesterday had not mailed it back to FTDNA yet.

I like discussing DF41, so I hope we get some new positives soon. I've pretty much lost interest in the semi-mythical and legendary Indo-Europeans (who probably rode unicorns and carried leprechauns on their shoulders), and there doesn't seem to be much else going on.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on October 08, 2012, 07:00:21 PM
How are we on outstanding DF41 tests? In general from looking at last week or so most test results I've seen coming in have been STR -- upgrades to higher number of markers etc.

Personally I'm waiting on hopefully a new updated tree from Alex, given the large batch of testing we've had over the last month and half it should at least be better quality. Either way it's still early days, it's hardly 6 months since either myself or Chris (McCown) tested DF41+ we probably among the first public DF41+ tested in FTDNA.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 08, 2012, 07:09:53 PM
How are we on outstanding DF41 tests? In general from looking at last week or so most test results I've seen coming in have been STR -- upgrades to higher number of markers etc.

Personally I'm waiting on hopefully a new updated tree from Alex, given the large batch of testing we've had over the last month and half it should at least be better quality. Either way it's still early days, it's hardly 6 months since either myself or Chris (McCown) tested DF41+ we probably among the first public DF41+ tested in FTDNA.

-Paul
(DF41+)

At the R-L21 Plus Project there are 16 DF41 tests in Pending Lab Results and three in Pending Shipment to Lab.

There is one pending DF41 test that should be a lock in the Stephens/Stevens Project (my 64/67 Stephens with a ph match) .



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 08, 2012, 07:12:39 PM
How are we on outstanding DF41 tests? In general from looking at last week or so most test results I've seen coming in have been STR -- upgrades to higher number of markers etc.

Personally I'm waiting on hopefully a new updated tree from Alex, given the large batch of testing we've had over the last month and half it should at least be better quality. Either way it's still early days, it's hardly 6 months since either myself or Chris (McCown) tested DF41+ we probably among the first public DF41+ tested in FTDNA.

-Paul
(DF41+)

At the R-L21 Plus Project there are 16 DF41 tests in Pending Lab Results and three in Pending Shipment to Lab.

There is one pending DF41 test that should be a lock in the Stephens/Stevens Project (my 64/67 Stephens with a ph match).



I'm guessing we won't see any new results in the morning because today is a federal holiday, Columbus Day, here in the USA. FTDNA probably wasn't working today.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 08, 2012, 07:36:20 PM
Oh, the admin of the Price Project told me one of the Prices in my cluster has also ordered DF41, but she wouldn't tell me which one. He should get a positive result. Hope he joins both projects or at least one of them, so we find out about it.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 10, 2012, 04:07:10 AM
The Quinn mentioned earlier on this thread has ordered DF41. I don't have time right now to hunt up his kit number.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 12, 2012, 04:01:04 AM
My 64/67 Stephens with a ph match, kit 208061, got his DF41+ result this morning.

Hooray! Another DF41+ at last!

I have asked his daughter, who is in charge of the kit, to join him to both the R-DF41 and Subclades Project and the R-L21 Plus Project.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mark Jost on October 12, 2012, 08:56:41 AM
Rich,

That has GOT to feel great. Hey have you found any paper trail connections yet?

MJost


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 12, 2012, 09:21:05 AM
My 64/67 Stephens with a ph match, kit 208061, got his DF41+ result this morning.

Hooray! Another DF41+ at last!

I have asked his daughter, who is in charge of the kit, to join him to both the R-DF41 and Subclades Project and the R-L21 Plus Project.
Congratulations.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 12, 2012, 11:29:33 AM
Rich,

That has GOT to feel great. Hey have you found any paper trail connections yet?

MJost

No, unfortunately. His y mdka was born in Caswell County, North Carolina, in 1798, and mine was born up in Wheeling, West Virginia (near Pittsburgh) in 1804. We both have another Stevens (with a v) match whose mdka was born in Pennsylvania around 1795, if I recall correctly. We can't connect the dots yet.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 12, 2012, 11:31:27 AM
My 64/67 Stephens with a ph match, kit 208061, got his DF41+ result this morning.

Hooray! Another DF41+ at last!

I have asked his daughter, who is in charge of the kit, to join him to both the R-DF41 and Subclades Project and the R-L21 Plus Project.
Congratulations.

Thanks!

It's nice to have all sorts of confirmation that our DF41+ results are accurate and not a lab error.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mark Jost on October 12, 2012, 12:52:19 PM
Rich,

That has GOT to feel great. Hey have you found any paper trail connections yet?

MJost

No, unfortunately. His y mdka was born in Caswell County, North Carolina, in 1798, and mine was born up in Wheeling, West Virginia (near Pittsburgh) in 1804. We both have another Stevens (with a v) match whose mdka was born in Pennsylvania around 1795, if I recall correctly. We can't connect the dots yet.
I have a similar issue as my Cook guy can only go back five generations to a brick wall into Georgia. We have a 64/67 and 106/111 GDs. The FtDNA TIP reports an eight generations at 58.10% and Nine at 68.27%.  My Isle of Man match has 61/67 and 103/111, so I feel I have found my general connection acrross the pond with the substantial off-modal markers in common.

Taking the 67 marker factor of 5.8 x  your average number of generation in years and that results x GD difference and divide by two then establishes a nice TMRCA.

5.8 x 41 years between your generations (If I recall correctly) = 237.8 years per mutation

237.8 years per mutation x three GD = 713.4 total mutation years.

713.4 total mutation years divided by two branches = 356.7 TMRCA

You may need to look more across the pond or early colonal.

MJost


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 12, 2012, 01:50:24 PM
That is what I had figured: probably the link is the immigrant, and the time would have been the 17th century or possibly the early 18th.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 12, 2012, 02:12:43 PM
A correction: my 64/67 match who just tested DF41+ has a y mdka born in North Carolina in about 1789, not 1798.

Sorry.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on October 12, 2012, 05:02:20 PM
A correction: my 64/67 match who just tested DF41+ has a y mdka born in North Carolina in about 1789, not 1798.

Sorry.

Well, try this one on. I have two 66/67 marker matches of a different surname. They have surnames in common and are 67/67 with each other. One of them and me just got our 111 results and we arestill GD1 at 110/111. They have spent 20 years shredding paper and are still brick-walled at about 1700 Scotland by family legend. Their best actual paper ends on immigration about 1730 with no mutual ancestor. My paper gets me to 1795 Scotland. Assumption: being DF41+, our most distant known/probable ancestors were Highlanders and probably born without inherited surnames.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 12, 2012, 07:36:40 PM
A correction: my 64/67 match who just tested DF41+ has a y mdka born in North Carolina in about 1789, not 1798.

Sorry.

Well, try this one on. I have two 66/67 marker matches of a different surname. They have surnames in common and are 67/67 with each other. One of them and me just got our 111 results and we arestill GD1 at 110/111. They have spent 20 years shredding paper and are still brick-walled at about 1700 Scotland by family legend. Their best actual paper ends on immigration about 1730 with no mutual ancestor. My paper gets me to 1795 Scotland. Assumption: being DF41+, our most distant known/probable ancestors were Highlanders and probably born without inherited surnames.

I've got a 65/67 match whose surname is different from mine. He was born in Worcester, England, but says his family has always lived in Shropshire (in the West Midlands, right on the Welsh border). He doesn't match any men with his surname, but he matches a bunch of us Stevenses/Stephenses.

Unfortunately, he isn't interested in pursuing things any further.

Figures.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 12, 2012, 08:29:45 PM
My 64/67 Stephens with a ph match, kit 208061, got his DF41+ result this morning.

Hooray! Another DF41+ at last!

I have asked his daughter, who is in charge of the kit, to join him to both the R-DF41 and Subclades Project and the R-L21 Plus Project.


She joined him to both projects today.

Hopefully we'll get some more positive results soon.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on October 13, 2012, 04:21:29 AM
A correction: my 64/67 match who just tested DF41+ has a y mdka born in North Carolina in about 1789, not 1798.

Sorry.

Well, try this one on. I have two 66/67 marker matches of a different surname. They have surnames in common and are 67/67 with each other. One of them and me just got our 111 results and we arestill GD1 at 110/111. They have spent 20 years shredding paper and are still brick-walled at about 1700 Scotland by family legend. Their best actual paper ends on immigration about 1730 with no mutual ancestor. My paper gets me to 1795 Scotland. Assumption: being DF41+, our most distant known/probable ancestors were Highlanders and probably born without inherited surnames.

I've got a 65/67 match whose surname is different from mine. He was born in Worcester, England, but says his family has always lived in Shropshire (in the West Midlands, right on the Welsh border). He doesn't match any men with his surname, but he matches a bunch of us Stevenses/Stephenses.

Unfortunately, he isn't interested in pursuing things any further.

Figures.

Do you think he would be open to even a sponsored DF41 test?

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 13, 2012, 07:52:52 AM
A correction: my 64/67 match who just tested DF41+ has a y mdka born in North Carolina in about 1789, not 1798.

Sorry.

Well, try this one on. I have two 66/67 marker matches of a different surname. They have surnames in common and are 67/67 with each other. One of them and me just got our 111 results and we arestill GD1 at 110/111. They have spent 20 years shredding paper and are still brick-walled at about 1700 Scotland by family legend. Their best actual paper ends on immigration about 1730 with no mutual ancestor. My paper gets me to 1795 Scotland. Assumption: being DF41+, our most distant known/probable ancestors were Highlanders and probably born without inherited surnames.

I've got a 65/67 match whose surname is different from mine. He was born in Worcester, England, but says his family has always lived in Shropshire (in the West Midlands, right on the Welsh border). He doesn't match any men with his surname, but he matches a bunch of us Stevenses/Stephenses.

Unfortunately, he isn't interested in pursuing things any further.

Figures.

Do you think he would be open to even a sponsored DF41 test?

-Paul
(DF41+)

I can ask him, but he never responded to my last email. Of course, that was the one in which I gently suggested that he might be a biological Stevens.

Shall I invite him for a DF41 test sponsored by the R-DF41 and Subclades Project?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: df.reynolds on October 14, 2012, 01:29:53 AM
Any DF41+ folks who have ordered Geno 2.0 and who plan on sharing?

--david
* * *
The Geno 2.0/WTY Summary Table (http://daver.info/WTY/R-L21.pdf)  was updated to include the additional folks who have indicated they have a Geno 2.0 test pending. 36 L21+ people so far.

No one from the "Little Four" (L96, L144, L371, L555) have indicated they are testing yet. Of the "Big Six," there is pretty good representation, except for DF41, where there are no pending results listed at this time. There is even one DF63 kit on the list!

If you are L21+, have ordered Geno 2.0, and want to share your Y-SNP results with the user community when they are available, please send your kit number to me at geno@daver.info (geno@daver.info) and I will add you to the summary table.

Regards,
david


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on October 14, 2012, 04:16:38 AM
Any DF41+ folks who have ordered Geno 2.0 and who plan on sharing?

--david
* * *
The Geno 2.0/WTY Summary Table (http://daver.info/WTY/R-L21.pdf)  was updated to include the additional folks who have indicated they have a Geno 2.0 test pending. 36 L21+ people so far.

No one from the "Little Four" (L96, L144, L371, L555) have indicated they are testing yet. Of the "Big Six," there is pretty good representation, except for DF41, where there are no pending results listed at this time. There is even one DF63 kit on the list!

If you are L21+, have ordered Geno 2.0, and want to share your Y-SNP results with the user community when they are available, please send your kit number to me at geno@daver.info (geno@daver.info) and I will add you to the summary table.

Regards,
david


As far as I know no none have. I'm planning on ordering in the new year -- have a family vacation to the Philippines coming up, that and I want to allow the first round of testing + research paper to come out -- see what it shakes out of the trees.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: df.reynolds on October 14, 2012, 05:56:59 AM
As far as I know no none have. I'm planning on ordering in the new year -- have a family vacation to the Philippines coming up, that and I want to allow the first round of testing + research paper to come out -- see what it shakes out of the trees.

-Paul
(DF41+)

OK, good to know. I'm certainly not trying to talk anyone else into buying a test right now, just trying to catalogue in advance what I can expect to see those first hectic days when results start coming in. :)

--david


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: OConnor on October 14, 2012, 01:09:41 PM
David

I read some mention of National Geographic, and I'm a little confused.
Should I order the geno 2 through Genographic or FTDNA?

I thought maybe I should log into the NationalGenographic site, but I am not at home and I don't have my genographic login id at hand.





Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: df.reynolds on October 14, 2012, 04:32:11 PM
Geno 2.0 is currently only available via the National Geographic website.

Rumor has it that it will eventually be available through the FTDNA site, but that remains just a rumor.

-david


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on October 15, 2012, 08:24:26 PM
Geno 2.0 is currently only available via the National Geographic website.

Rumor has it that it will eventually be available through the FTDNA site, but that remains just a rumor.

-david

Possibly when they have the IT services in place to present it as integrated with their other products. $:-)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mark Jost on October 16, 2012, 11:20:31 AM
R1b-L21>DF13>DF41* guys with 111 markers
f47694   MacMillan
f176148   Duffy
f35212   McCrere
f240201   Walker
f29705   McCown


111(94) Markers   Sheet  Mutation Rate:

 STRs not used: 385,389i,459,464,CDY,YCAII,395S1 & 413

L21 ALL (111Markers) 
YrsPerGen*  Count
30   N=1048

Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP   Max  VAR   

SD
114.6   32.1  3,438.8  963.5  4,402.3  12.738  3.569


R1b-L21>DF13>DF41*
YrsPerGen*  Count
30   N=5

Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  Max  VAR   

SD

105.3  21.4  3,158.1  643.3  3,801.4  24.100  4.909


            

TRUE MRCA  InterClade AB Founder      
Pooled SD Clades  A & B  Interclade

YrsPerGen*
30

Interclade GAB: L21* for L21 ALL (111Markers) & R1b-L21>DF13>DF41*


Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  PooledVar   

PooledSD
   
113.4  22.3  3,402.3  667.7  25.964  5.095



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on October 16, 2012, 12:42:27 PM
I'm currently revitalising my map generation software to generate geographical maps (coloured pins on google maps) as an alternative presentation of the information in the results sheet on L257.org.

Are there any people in the DF41 world interested in helping constructing a map for DF41 and subgroups ??

My intention is to include both tested DF41+ and strong candidates (as per the current results sheets) to get as much geo information as possible. The first version will be static (snapshot from the live google maps display on my PC), in a later phase I might put the dynamic version (with clickable pins and all google maps functions available) online.

One thing would be to agree on a colouring schema (which subgroup gets which pin colour), but by far the most important issue would be to get people to publish a reasonable origin as part of their FT-DNA profile. It's nice to have a place name, but to generate a map, a set of geographical coordinates (latitude + longitude) is needed.

If a placename is known, these coordinates can be obtained via e.g. itouchmap.com/latlong.html (http://itouchmap.com/latlong.html) (enter place name in the field "address" at the top en click "go"; the results (the one with the decimal point !!) will appear in the fields "latitude" and "longitude"). Please keep in mind longitudes west of Greenwich are negative; ignoring this might place your pin in the middle of the North Sea).


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on October 16, 2012, 12:57:22 PM
BTW, looking at maps, it appears to me that in the two subgroups of L21 I've looked at (DF49 and DF41) all members who give a US origin, specify an origin in the EASTERN half of the US (East Coast + Colonies). No exception. Would there be a pattern here ??


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on October 16, 2012, 01:59:01 PM
BTW, looking at maps, it appears to me that in the two subgroups of L21 I've looked at (DF49 and DF41) all members who give a US origin, specify an origin in the EASTERN half of the US (East Coast + Colonies). No exception. Would there be a pattern here ??

I would imagine it maps to the large migration that occurred during the mid 18th century from the likes of Northern half of Ireland as well as Scotland. In an american context you hear the term "Scots-Irish" to denote migration of Ulster Protestants (descendants of Scots Planters of 17th century) who migrated in large numbers to American colonies, particulary in the 1740's.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on October 16, 2012, 06:08:47 PM
BTW, looking at maps, it appears to me that in the two subgroups of L21 I've looked at (DF49 and DF41) all members who give a US origin, specify an origin in the EASTERN half of the US (East Coast + Colonies). No exception. Would there be a pattern here ??

I would imagine it maps to the large migration that occurred during the mid 18th century from the likes of Northern half of Ireland as well as Scotland. In an american context you hear the term "Scots-Irish" to denote migration of Ulster Protestants (descendants of Scots Planters of 17th century) who migrated in large numbers to American colonies, particulary in the 1740's.

-Paul
(DF41+)

There was little westward migration in the U.S. of Irish/Scottish/English until after the 1803 Louisiana Purchase. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Purchase

Most who are interested in genealogy enough to purchase a DNA test can trace their ancestry that far back, or at least far enough to give them an eastern U.S. ancestor.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: razyn on October 16, 2012, 06:21:19 PM
Most European immigrants to (what has become) the USA arrived on the east coast, not the west.  Tracing ancestors to ports of entry we tend to come to a sort of line in the sand, thereabouts.  Some few came through other ports -- such as New Orleans and Galveston -- but I guess their descendants aren't L21.  Lots of us aren't.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on October 16, 2012, 06:30:17 PM
I'm currently revitalising my map generation software to generate geographical maps (coloured pins on google maps) as an alternative presentation of the information in the results sheet on L257.org.

Are there any people in the DF41 world interested in helping constructing a map for DF41 and subgroups ??

My intention is to include both tested DF41+ and strong candidates (as per the current results sheets) to get as much geo information as possible. The first version will be static (snapshot from the live google maps display on my PC), in a later phase I might put the dynamic version (with clickable pins and all google maps functions available) online.

One thing would be to agree on a colouring schema (which subgroup gets which pin colour), but by far the most important issue would be to get people to publish a reasonable origin as part of their FT-DNA profile. It's nice to have a place name, but to generate a map, a set of geographical coordinates (latitude + longitude) is needed.

If a placename is known, these coordinates can be obtained via e.g. itouchmap.com/latlong.html (http://itouchmap.com/latlong.html) (enter place name in the field "address" at the top en click "go"; the results (the one with the decimal point !!) will appear in the fields "latitude" and "longitude"). Please keep in mind longitudes west of Greenwich are negative; ignoring this might place your pin in the middle of the North Sea).


http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4Nh9UENAPftDDRhYynBR8mhN7rMl-pnHjibNSle3BFXXoDqaEBRxtIH3l8o9BL_lvGWFHQpS_PHJdYzgh_gyAS25UP4l_A/Y_DNA_TOOLS%20-%20A%20Location%20Tutorial%20for%20Newbies.pdf


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: razyn on October 17, 2012, 01:35:09 PM
I don't want to interfere with all the discussions going on here, but as it's a very nice small group, I'm currently using DF41 as a test case for the next version of my presentation software (used on L257.org). I *do* hope, this is permitted $:-)

There are two things that appear to me:

(1) There has been a little discussion about the "age" of DF41. I guess, DF41 will turn out to consist of a number of more or less tight clusters with a significant distance between them and it might be far more appropriate to discuss the "age" of each of these clusters individually. The combined age of DF41 is interesting from a historical point of view of course, but possibly much less so than the age of the individual clusters.

(2) The cluster that rms2 is in, I tend to call it the Stevens Cluster for clarity - $:-), screams for a 111 marker result to compare to the other clusters. One might get the impression, there's not really any good reason left to not ..... $;-)

I'm responding to an older message because I think a stitch has been dropped here, and it's esthetically better to pick up the knitting before some of the current pattern got started.  Not that a sweater knitted by a committee is ever going to look as if it had been well thought out in advance.

Anyway, on other threads I've mentioned geneticist Hans van Vliet's recent forays into the field of pairwise mismatch analysis.  (Those threads were about R1b-DF27; Z220; and, just today, about Interclades for the DF13 Big Six.)  Today he has brought up a new refinement tool, Linkage Disequilibrium, on this thread:  http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=11409.0

One of the three examples he used there is DF41 -- I'm cross-referencing it here so that you DF41 guys won't miss the discussion (if any ensues).  More or less coincidentally he has lately run the pairwise mismatch numbers for DF41, for one of its sub-clusters (happily, the cluster that includes rms2), and for its downstream SNP L744.  Here is what he said about them in an email I received today:

Quote
I looked at the posts you mentioned in earlier emails and worked on some data.
The DF41 that [might] interest Rich Stevens produced the following mean pwmm's:

Df41    13.8    aka 2.7K ybp
the DYS385=11 group of DF41    7    aka 1.3K ybp
L744    6.3    aka 1.2K ybp

I highlighted the mean pairwise mismatch figures in red.  He has calculated them (from haplotype data in Mike's spreadsheet) using the Arlequin software package.  Then he has a formula to convert that into a TMRCA date (expressed in Kybp).  I'm reluctant to get into that, as it requires thinking like a Dutch mathematician and I don't easily do that.  But I have actually used it and gotten his results.

The DYS385b=11 group (so far) includes persons names Stev(ph)ens, Selfe, Cooper, and Webb.  Hans's method dates their split from the much older DF41 to roughly 700 AD.

And btw this constitutes another example of the relative stability of an apparent RecLOH event in the allegedly "fast" mutating, palindromic marker DYS385.  I had previously argued that (stability) in connection with my own little group (L484+ guys under Z220), which is of very similar age and has the oddball values 10,11 at that same DYS385 locus.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on October 17, 2012, 07:48:04 PM

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4Nh9UENAPftDDRhYynBR8mhN7rMl-pnHjibNSle3BFXXoDqaEBRxtIH3l8o9BL_lvGWFHQpS_PHJdYzgh_gyAS25UP4l_A/Y_DNA_TOOLS%20-%20A%20Location%20Tutorial%20for%20Newbies.pdf

Quote from: Mozilla Firefox V15.0.1
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The document you requested could not be found.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 18, 2012, 07:08:00 AM
I don't want to interfere with all the discussions going on here, but as it's a very nice small group, I'm currently using DF41 as a test case for the next version of my presentation software (used on L257.org). I *do* hope, this is permitted $:-)

There are two things that appear to me:

(1) There has been a little discussion about the "age" of DF41. I guess, DF41 will turn out to consist of a number of more or less tight clusters with a significant distance between them and it might be far more appropriate to discuss the "age" of each of these clusters individually. The combined age of DF41 is interesting from a historical point of view of course, but possibly much less so than the age of the individual clusters.

(2) The cluster that rms2 is in, I tend to call it the Stevens Cluster for clarity - $:-), screams for a 111 marker result to compare to the other clusters. One might get the impression, there's not really any good reason left to not ..... $;-)

I'm responding to an older message because I think a stitch has been dropped here, and it's esthetically better to pick up the knitting before some of the current pattern got started.  Not that a sweater knitted by a committee is ever going to look as if it had been well thought out in advance.

Anyway, on other threads I've mentioned geneticist Hans van Vliet's recent forays into the field of pairwise mismatch analysis.  (Those threads were about R1b-DF27; Z220; and, just today, about Interclades for the DF13 Big Six.)  Today he has brought up a new refinement tool, Linkage Disequilibrium, on this thread:  http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=11409.0

One of the three examples he used there is DF41 -- I'm cross-referencing it here so that you DF41 guys won't miss the discussion (if any ensues).  More or less coincidentally he has lately run the pairwise mismatch numbers for DF41, for one of its sub-clusters (happily, the cluster that includes rms2), and for its downstream SNP L744.  Here is what he said about them in an email I received today:

Quote
I looked at the posts you mentioned in earlier emails and worked on some data.
The DF41 that [might] interest Rich Stevens produced the following mean pwmm's:

Df41    13.8    aka 2.7K ybp
the DYS385=11 group of DF41    7    aka 1.3K ybp
L744    6.3    aka 1.2K ybp

I highlighted the mean pairwise mismatch figures in red.  He has calculated them (from haplotype data in Mike's spreadsheet) using the Arlequin software package.  Then he has a formula to convert that into a TMRCA date (expressed in Kybp).  I'm reluctant to get into that, as it requires thinking like a Dutch mathematician and I don't easily do that.  But I have actually used it and gotten his results.

The DYS385b=11 group (so far) includes persons names Stev(ph)ens, Selfe, Cooper, and Webb.  Hans's method dates their split from the much older DF41 to roughly 700 AD.

And btw this constitutes another example of the relative stability of an apparent RecLOH event in the allegedly "fast" mutating, palindromic marker DYS385.  I had previously argued that (stability) in connection with my own little group (L484+ guys under Z220), which is of very similar age and has the oddball values 10,11 at that same DYS385 locus.

Thanks for that post, razyn. I haven't been here at the forum for a couple of days because I have been too doggoned busy.

It's interesting. Can't say I completely understand it, but it is interesting.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 18, 2012, 07:42:48 AM
I might regret mentioning this, but I started a Facebook R-DF41 group, if anyone is interested. There are a few of us on it already. It's pretty slow moving right now, but if you use Facebook or like Facebook, and if you're interested in DF41, you might want to check it out. (It's funny, really, because I don't like Facebook all that much.)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on October 18, 2012, 06:13:10 PM

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4Nh9UENAPftDDRhYynBR8mhN7rMl-pnHjibNSle3BFXXoDqaEBRxtIH3l8o9BL_lvGWFHQpS_PHJdYzgh_gyAS25UP4l_A/Y_DNA_TOOLS%20-%20A%20Location%20Tutorial%20for%20Newbies.pdf

Quote from: Mozilla Firefox V15.0.1
Document Not Found

The document you requested could not be found.

Sorry, I thought those files were public. Try this: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BwYlArJQ3ODRVGxrenNHTW8yX0E


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on October 18, 2012, 07:20:39 PM
I might regret mentioning this, but I started a Facebook R-DF41 group, if anyone is interested. There are a few of us on it already. It's pretty slow moving right now, but if you use Facebook or like Facebook, and if you're interested in DF41, you might want to check it out. (It's funny, really, because I don't like Facebook all that much.)

So, how do I find it? A facebook search for R-DF41 only brings up something called Alumni_10 DF41 which ain't it.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 18, 2012, 08:45:54 PM
I might regret mentioning this, but I started a Facebook R-DF41 group, if anyone is interested. There are a few of us on it already. It's pretty slow moving right now, but if you use Facebook or like Facebook, and if you're interested in DF41, you might want to check it out. (It's funny, really, because I don't like Facebook all that much.)

So, how do I find it? A facebook search for R-DF41 only brings up something called Alumni_10 DF41 which ain't it.

Can you email me, Larry? My email is on the Background page at the R-DF41 and Subclades Project.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 20, 2012, 07:18:42 PM
Waiting is a drag.

We need some more DF41+ results.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 20, 2012, 07:22:29 PM
You may have noticed that I put the shorthand for DF41 into military phonetics in my signature: Romeo Delta Foxtrot Forty One (or you can call it Romeo One Bravo Delta Foxtrot Forty One, if you prefer).

Sounds cool, no?

I don't really have as much time on my hands as it seems. :-O


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: df.reynolds on October 20, 2012, 08:57:53 PM
You may have noticed that I put the shorthand for DF41 into military phonetics in my signature: Romeo Delta Foxtrot Forty One (or you can call it Romeo One Bravo Delta Foxtrot Forty One, if you prefer).

Sounds cool, no?

I don't really have as much time on my hands as it seems. :-O
Thanks for a much needed laugh. :)

--david


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 21, 2012, 05:38:39 AM
You may have noticed that I put the shorthand for DF41 into military phonetics in my signature: Romeo Delta Foxtrot Forty One (or you can call it Romeo One Bravo Delta Foxtrot Forty One, if you prefer).

Sounds cool, no?

I don't really have as much time on my hands as it seems. :-O
Thanks for a much needed laugh. :)

--david

You are welcome, from one "Delta Foxtrot" guy to another.

The Z-SNP guys have really cool sounding groups, like Romeo Zulu Two Fifty Three, for example. But I like DF41, anyway.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: razyn on October 21, 2012, 08:13:50 AM
I think you terminal Romeo Delta Foxtrot guys need a Dash.  (Slash would sound a little more military, but doesn't match the current typographic convention.)  Is one allowed to say Romeo Dash Delta Foxtrot?  Otherwise you might be confused with an RDF station and, you know, targeted by a U-boat or whatever.

In 1944, my late dad's route as a Navy chaplain attached to the Coast Guard included a big RDF station at Buxton, NC.  I think it actually meant Range and Direction Finder; they could do the direction part with radio, and triangulation was possible, but range was becoming a radar function.  That technology was still more or less secret, and they just called all of it RDF.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_direction_finder

I recognize that this might be perceived as slightly off-topic.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on October 21, 2012, 07:15:14 PM
I think you terminal Romeo Delta Foxtrot guys need a Dash.  (Slash would sound a little more military, but doesn't match the current typographic convention.)  Is one allowed to say Romeo Dash Delta Foxtrot?  Otherwise you might be confused with an RDF station and, you know, targeted by a U-boat or whatever.

In 1944, my late dad's route as a Navy chaplain attached to the Coast Guard included a big RDF station at Buxton, NC.  I think it actually meant Range and Direction Finder; they could do the direction part with radio, and triangulation was possible, but range was becoming a radar function.  That technology was still more or less secret, and they just called all of it RDF.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_direction_finder

I recognize that this might be perceived as slightly off-topic.

Since today's topic is apparently boredom, a former Navy radioman might say:

di-dah-dit dah-di-di-di-di-dah dah-di-dit di-di-dah-dit di-di-di-di-dah di-dah-dah-dah-dah ( .-. -....- -.. ..-. ....- .---- )

http://www.onlineconversion.com/morse_code.htm

.-.. .- .-. .-. -.--


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 22, 2012, 08:51:10 PM
My dad was a career Navy man, an aviation electronics instructor. I grew up on Navy bases. When I was a young kid, I thought everyone got saluted by Marines.  ;-)

I didn't think we needed the dash, as long as everyone understands that the first character is the branch prefix and all the rest are the SNP (or the first three characters are the prefix, in the case of Romeo One Bravo).



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: k.o.gran on October 25, 2012, 03:28:02 AM
Great news! 181546 Nuckolls is L563+! That means he is also DF41+. And L563 is no longer private.

Finally!

-Kai


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 25, 2012, 04:06:38 AM
Great news! 181546 Nuckolls is L563+! That means he is also DF41+. And L563 is no longer private.

Finally!

-Kai

Excellent! I just saw that result this morning.



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on October 25, 2012, 04:31:36 AM
Kai,

If you need any help getting L563 on the ISOGG tree give me a shout. I went through the process with DF41. It's should be fairly straightforward as long as we have verification regarding position with regards to L744/L746 (eg. L563+ = L744-/L746- and L744+/L746+ = L563- )

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: k.o.gran on October 25, 2012, 05:13:40 AM
Kai,

If you need any help getting L563 on the ISOGG tree give me a shout. I went through the process with DF41. It's should be fairly straightforward as long as we have verification regarding position with regards to L744/L746 (eg. L563+ = L744-/L746- and L744+/L746+ = L563- )

-Paul
(DF41+)

Let's see...

35212 McCrere is L563+, DF41+, L744-, L746-.
92380 Hall is DF41+, L563-

But I can't find any L744+ or L746+ who have tested for L563. I guess those are the only two missing tests?

-Kai


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: df.reynolds on October 25, 2012, 05:49:47 AM
Kai,

If you need any help getting L563 on the ISOGG tree give me a shout. I went through the process with DF41. It's should be fairly straightforward as long as we have verification regarding position with regards to L744/L746 (eg. L563+ = L744-/L746- and L744+/L746+ = L563- )

-Paul
(DF41+)

Let's see...

35212 McCrere is L563+, DF41+, L744-, L746-.
92380 Hall is DF41+, L563-

But I can't find any L744+ or L746+ who have tested for L563. I guess those are the only two missing tests?

-Kai
See http://daver.info/WTY/R-L21.pdf, WTY results for WStewart, kit 143035, L563- L744+ L746+. You won't find him in any public projects anymore; he appeared to leave them all after multiple disagreements with different people.

--david


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: k.o.gran on October 25, 2012, 07:21:07 AM
Kai,

If you need any help getting L563 on the ISOGG tree give me a shout. I went through the process with DF41. It's should be fairly straightforward as long as we have verification regarding position with regards to L744/L746 (eg. L563+ = L744-/L746- and L744+/L746+ = L563- )

-Paul
(DF41+)

Let's see...

35212 McCrere is L563+, DF41+, L744-, L746-.
92380 Hall is DF41+, L563-

But I can't find any L744+ or L746+ who have tested for L563. I guess those are the only two missing tests?

-Kai
See http://daver.info/WTY/R-L21.pdf, WTY results for WStewart, kit 143035, L563- L744+ L746+. You won't find him in any public projects anymore; he appeared to leave them all after multiple disagreements with different people.

--david

Thanks David!

I forgot about the WTY summary. Seems this SNP is ready for ISOGG. :)

-Kai


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 25, 2012, 07:24:34 AM
Nuckolls has a close 67-marker match with a gentleman with another surname, so it looks like there is at least one more L563+ out there, and a third surname in that category.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: razyn on October 25, 2012, 07:42:00 PM
Nuckolls has a close 67-marker match with a gentleman with another surname, so it looks like there is at least one more L563+ out there, and a third surname in that category.

Or an adoptee (e.g.) testing to see if he can find his real ancestor, and it was a Nuckolls.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 25, 2012, 09:08:00 PM
Nuckolls has a close 67-marker match with a gentleman with another surname, so it looks like there is at least one more L563+ out there, and a third surname in that category.

Or an adoptee (e.g.) testing to see if he can find his real ancestor, and it was a Nuckolls.

Or something similar the other way around, since this third surname shows up again in another individual among Nuckolls' 37-marker matches.

Anyway, I emailed the 67-marker match and offered him an L563 test.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 26, 2012, 10:13:23 AM
Nuckolls has a close 67-marker match with a gentleman with another surname, so it looks like there is at least one more L563+ out there, and a third surname in that category.

Or an adoptee (e.g.) testing to see if he can find his real ancestor, and it was a Nuckolls.

Or something similar the other way around, since this third surname shows up again in another individual among Nuckolls' 37-marker matches.

Anyway, I emailed the 67-marker match and offered him an L563 test.
Robert Casey feels like these guys are good prospects as well. They did have some matches on 1-37 markers but when looking at all 67 the GDs are large and some of the slower ones don't match (with L563 people):

335WV   f157140   Pitts   Virginia, USA
MVMFG   f28321   Pitts   Unknown
C8ZW7   f20227   Pitts   Unknown

What do you think?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on October 26, 2012, 12:12:27 PM
Nuckolls has a close 67-marker match with a gentleman with another surname, so it looks like there is at least one more L563+ out there, and a third surname in that category.

Or an adoptee (e.g.) testing to see if he can find his real ancestor, and it was a Nuckolls.

Or something similar the other way around, since this third surname shows up again in another individual among Nuckolls' 37-marker matches.

Anyway, I emailed the 67-marker match and offered him an L563 test.
Robert Casey feels like these guys are good prospects as well. They did have some matches on 1-37 markers but when looking at all 67 the GDs are large and some of the slower ones don't match (with L563 people):

335WV   f157140   Pitts   Virginia, USA
MVMFG   f28321   Pitts   Unknown
C8ZW7   f20227   Pitts   Unknown

What do you think?


At the very least it should be suggested that one of them test for DF41. If they come back DF41+ then try L563.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Peter M on October 26, 2012, 12:13:07 PM
Has anybody ever looked at the McKenzies as candidates for L563 ??


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: k.o.gran on October 26, 2012, 12:21:33 PM
Has anybody ever looked at the McKenzies as candidates for L563 ??

Yes. Please see this post:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/message/12203

-Kai


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 26, 2012, 01:57:23 PM
Has anybody ever looked at the McKenzies as candidates for L563 ??

I took the suspects that Robert Casey recommended, except the Pittman's, and added them to the big spreadsheet posted at the Yahoo Group links section. This morning's SNP results are also included.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 27, 2012, 11:30:56 AM
It appears Nuckolls' 65/67 match is closer to Creer than Nuckolls is to Creer. Nuckolls and his match differ at two markers, 576, where Nuckolls has 18 and his match has 17, and 481, where Nuckolls has 20 and his match has 21. Creer has 17 and 21, respectively, at those two markers, so he is a gd of 13, if I am not mistaken, from Nuckolls' match and 15 away from Nuckolls himself.

I hope that made sense. I couldn't find Nuckolls' match in Ysearch, but I was able to ferret him out in his surname project, which is hosted here at World Families.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 29, 2012, 04:30:59 PM
Nuckolls has a close 67-marker match with a gentleman with another surname, so it looks like there is at least one more L563+ out there, and a third surname in that category.

Or an adoptee (e.g.) testing to see if he can find his real ancestor, and it was a Nuckolls.

Or something similar the other way around, since this third surname shows up again in another individual among Nuckolls' 37-marker matches.

Anyway, I emailed the 67-marker match and offered him an L563 test.
Robert Casey feels like these guys are good prospects as well. They did have some matches on 1-37 markers but when looking at all 67 the GDs are large and some of the slower ones don't match (with L563 people):

335WV   f157140   Pitts   Virginia, USA
MVMFG   f28321   Pitts   Unknown
C8ZW7   f20227   Pitts   Unknown

What do you think?


I took a look at them today. At least one of them, 28321, has tested Z220+ and is in the Z220+ category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project. All of them are in the N-S Cluster with 437=14, 448=18, and H4=10.



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 29, 2012, 04:34:21 PM
Has anybody ever looked at the McKenzies as candidates for L563 ??

Yes. Please see this post:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/message/12203

-Kai

I wrote the admins of the MacKenzie Clan DNA Project and the Mills DNA Project to try to recruit their respective candidates for testing.

I have a little time on my hands today, which is unusual lately. I'm stuck in the house today and tomorrow because of Hurricane Sandy (I'm a teacher, and my school is closed because of the hurricane).


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 29, 2012, 04:36:40 PM
Nuckolls has a close 67-marker match with a gentleman with another surname, so it looks like there is at least one more L563+ out there, and a third surname in that category.

Or an adoptee (e.g.) testing to see if he can find his real ancestor, and it was a Nuckolls.

Or something similar the other way around, since this third surname shows up again in another individual among Nuckolls' 37-marker matches.

Anyway, I emailed the 67-marker match and offered him an L563 test.
Robert Casey feels like these guys are good prospects as well. They did have some matches on 1-37 markers but when looking at all 67 the GDs are large and some of the slower ones don't match (with L563 people):

335WV   f157140   Pitts   Virginia, USA
MVMFG   f28321   Pitts   Unknown
C8ZW7   f20227   Pitts   Unknown

What do you think?


I took a look at them today. At least one of them, 28321, has tested Z220+ and is in the Z220+ category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project. All of them are in the N-S Cluster with 437=14, 448=18, and H4=10.

Thanks, their GD's seemed wide with the L563 people, but Robert's methodology apparently picked up there was enough of a STR signature match for him to include on the suspect list.  I like to use the word suspect better than "predict" for exactly this reason.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 29, 2012, 04:46:24 PM
I appreciate any and all suggestions. We haven't seen much action lately, other than Nuckolls' L563+ result.

Getting these folks to respond, even when we offer them free tests, is like pulling teeth. That's another problem.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on October 30, 2012, 05:22:42 AM
I've created a seperated L563 subgrouping in the STR results in the DF41+ project. Obviously we should get Nuckolls to join to at least have two members in that grouping.

Given the numbering I'm assuming L563 has been known for at least 18 months. In which case I hope it will be in GEN 2.0 list of SNP's.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 30, 2012, 08:15:28 AM
I invited Nuckolls to join as soon as I saw his L563+ result. I just sent him a reminder with detailed instructions on how to join.

I also just heard from an exact 12-marker match of mine (I know: just 12 markers) who has ordered the DF41 test. His surname is Samuel and his mdka came from somewhere in Wales (he probably knows where, but I do not). He ordered DF41 sometime in early October, so his result ought to pop up any time now.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on October 30, 2012, 08:19:20 AM
I invited Nuckolls to join as soon as I saw his L563+ result. I just sent him a reminder with detailed instructions on how to join.

I also just heard from an exact 12-marker match of mine (I know: just 12 markers) who has ordered the DF41 test. His surname is Samuel and his mdka came from somewhere in Wales (he probably knows where, but I do not). He ordered DF41 sometime in early October, so his result ought to pop up any time now.


Should be intersting, obviously he's just a 12marker, but still with a connection into Wales could be a good pointer.

-Paul


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 30, 2012, 08:24:54 AM
I invited Nuckolls to join as soon as I saw his L563+ result. I just sent him a reminder with detailed instructions on how to join.

I also just heard from an exact 12-marker match of mine (I know: just 12 markers) who has ordered the DF41 test. His surname is Samuel and his mdka came from somewhere in Wales (he probably knows where, but I do not). He ordered DF41 sometime in early October, so his result ought to pop up any time now.


Should be intersting, obviously he's just a 12marker, but still with a connection into Wales could be a good pointer.

-Paul

Yeah, he'll either be DF41+ or, if he's not, he's probably L48+. That seems to be the way with my matches who have less than 67 markers: they're either genuinely in my cluster or they're some kind of U106 (it's the 390=23 and the 447=24 that causes the trouble).


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on October 30, 2012, 07:05:06 PM
I got a reply from the admin of the MacKenzie Clan DNA Project, with info on how to contact those two prospects from his project. I emailed one of them (kit 71100). If he doesn't respond, I'll contact the other one.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on November 01, 2012, 07:23:31 AM
MacKenzie, kit 71100, has ordered DF41. Now we wait.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on November 06, 2012, 07:34:53 AM
Chuck Self, kit 53479, finally got his DF41+ result this morning. Hooray! (He's in my cluster.) I sent him an email and asked him to join the R-DF41 and Subclades Project.

Self's was the only DF41 result in the R-L21 Plus Project last night.

I wonder if there were others elsewhere I don't know about.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on November 06, 2012, 08:26:59 AM
None in the Ireland Project that's for sure. I know there are a couple folks there who have it on order. I'm curious as to when Alex Williamson will generate a new tree. Obviously alot of those on the current version (Aug 30th) turned out DF41- but who knows having a tighter cluster might make it easier to find people, as well as help define any overall STR results that are common across DF41+ men.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on November 06, 2012, 12:45:10 PM
I'm hoping maybe my 12-marker match, Mr. Samuel, got a DF41+ result, too, but maybe it's too soon.

I keep checking the SNP results for the Price Project, as well, but still no signs of any DF41+ results. There are a handful of Prices in that project who are in my haplotype cluster, and one of them supposedly ordered DF41 around the end of September. He should have a result by now, one would think, but I don't see it yet.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on November 09, 2012, 09:57:13 PM
There's a new DF41+ today: Price, kit 49109.

He's in the Price DNA Project. Here's the SNP Results page:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/pricesurnamedna/default.aspx?section=ysnp (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/pricesurnamedna/default.aspx?section=ysnp)

He's in my haplotype cluster (Mike's 41-1123), and I knew one of those Prices had ordered DF41 (I just didn't know which one).

I'll try to recruit him for both the R-DF41 and Subclades Project and the R-L21 Plus Project.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on November 13, 2012, 06:29:19 PM
I see Self has ordered an upgrade from 67-111 STR markers, this will give us at least one 111 STR result in each of the known DF41 clusters.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on November 14, 2012, 05:02:08 AM
I see Self has ordered an upgrade from 67-111 STR markers, this will give us at least one 111 STR result in each of the known DF41 clusters.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I saw that. DF41 seems to have sparked some interest among at least a few members of my cluster. There wasn't much activity before it came along.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on November 14, 2012, 04:11:04 PM
I mentioned one of my exact 12-marker matches earlier in this thread: Samuel, kit N104746. He just got his DF41+ result. His mdka came from the old Breconshire in  Wales.

He only has 12 markers, so I wasn't sure if he was really in my cluster or not, but I guess the DF41+ result solved that problem.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on November 14, 2012, 08:36:14 PM
I mentioned one of my exact 12-marker matches earlier in this thread: Samuel, kit N104746. He just got his DF41+ result. His mdka came from the old Breconshire in  Wales.

He only has 12 markers, so I wasn't sure if he was really in my cluster or not, but I guess the DF41+ result solved that problem.

Samuel has ordered an upgrade to 67 markers.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on November 16, 2012, 03:38:53 PM
There's a new DF41+ today: Price, kit 49109.

He's in the Price DNA Project. Here's the SNP Results page:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/pricesurnamedna/default.aspx?section=ysnp (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/pricesurnamedna/default.aspx?section=ysnp)

He's in my haplotype cluster (Mike's 41-1123), and I knew one of those Prices had ordered DF41 (I just didn't know which one).

I'll try to recruit him for both the R-DF41 and Subclades Project and the R-L21 Plus Project.

Price has finally joined the R-L21 Plus Project and the R-DF41 and Subclades Project.

I realize there is a limited audience for DF41 stuff, but I'll keep posting away in this thread anyway. That is one thing about getting better and better SNP resolution: one's terminal subclade gets progressively smaller and smaller.

It's interesting to me that two members of my haplotype cluster who just recently tested DF41+ both have ancestry in Wales. Now I'm wondering if the cluster will show up in the results of the People of the British Isles Project in Wales or western England (or elsewhere). I would like to find out.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: k.o.gran on November 16, 2012, 06:40:05 PM
Are there any plausible pending L563 kits currently?

-Kai


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on November 16, 2012, 09:38:46 PM
Are there any plausible pending L563 kits currently?

-Kai

Between the two projects I don't see any at all, either in Pending Lab results or Pending Shipment to Lab.

I really should order it myself.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on November 16, 2012, 10:11:07 PM
I noticed that Thomas Krahn's Draft Tree says that 267 guys have been tested for L563 and 4 are derived. I know of two (Creer and Nuckolls). Who and where are the other two?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: k.o.gran on November 17, 2012, 05:20:12 AM
I noticed that Thomas Krahn's Draft Tree says that 267 guys have been tested for L563 and 4 are derived. I know of two (Creer and Nuckolls). Who and where are the other two?

Two more Creer's in the Creer Surname Project. Neither has tested to 67 markers if I remember correclty. Thank you for the information.

-Kai


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on November 19, 2012, 08:17:13 AM
Mayson, kit 140321, got his DF41+ result and joined the R-DF41 and Subclades Project. He doesn't have an mdka listed yet.

He is a 34/37 match of mine that I had emailed back in early October about DF41.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: razyn on November 21, 2012, 10:16:26 AM
Thomas Krahn apparently added a couple of new SNPs under DF41 to his draft tree, yesterday.  They are on the same "level," and called L1314, L1315.

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813469

There are a couple more new ones under L21.  Look for the yellow stars, on that chart.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on November 21, 2012, 10:43:04 AM
Thomas Krahn apparently added a couple of new SNPs under DF41 to his draft tree, yesterday.  They are on the same "level," and called L1314, L1315.

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813469

There are a couple more new ones under L21.  Look for the yellow stars, on that chart.

Are you sure those are under DF41? They look like they are parallel to it to me.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: OConnor on November 21, 2012, 10:57:55 AM
About the new snp's at the very bottom, is there some way of comparing str's with the people who tested +...??


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: razyn on November 21, 2012, 12:32:38 PM
Are you sure those are under DF41? They look like they are parallel to it to me.

I think you're right.  I find those vertical charts maddeningly hard to read; these newly posted SNPs are directly "under" DF41, but aren't derived under it.  There's a feature whereby one may click on the picture of a tree stump beside an open folder (e.g. on the line that ends with DF41, in blue letters), and get the phylogeny that's just from there down -- and these two newly posted SNPs don't appear on it.

Anyway, it's interesting that some new SNPs are getting posted.  I noticed a few others, in Hg G and I.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on November 22, 2012, 10:09:47 AM
Well, we know a bit more about what to expect from GENO 2.0 this morning. In the near term, about the only new DF41+ members we can expect to pick up are those who are L744 positive. See https://dl.dropbox.com/u/92587284/L21-Geno2.0.png (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/92587284/L21-Geno2.0.png) .

Over the longer term, it is a crap shoot as to whether any of the 10,000 or so SNPs that are not yet positioned turn out to be subclades of DF41.

Larry


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on November 22, 2012, 11:03:30 AM
Well, we know a bit more about what to expect from GENO 2.0 this morning. In the near term, about the only new DF41+ members we can expect to pick up are those who are L744 positive. See https://dl.dropbox.com/u/92587284/L21-Geno2.0.png (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/92587284/L21-Geno2.0.png) .

Over the longer term, it is a crap shoot as to whether any of the 10,000 or so SNPs that are not yet positioned turn out to be subclades of DF41.

Larry

Hmmm . . .

Maybe we'll get lucky with those 10k unpositioned SNPs. Otherwise, blah.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on November 22, 2012, 12:40:37 PM
Well, we know a bit more about what to expect from GENO 2.0 this morning. In the near term, about the only new DF41+ members we can expect to pick up are those who are L744 positive. See https://dl.dropbox.com/u/92587284/L21-Geno2.0.png (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/92587284/L21-Geno2.0.png) .

Over the longer term, it is a crap shoot as to whether any of the 10,000 or so SNPs that are not yet positioned turn out to be subclades of DF41.

Larry

Hmmm . . .

Maybe we'll get lucky with those 10k unpositioned SNPs. Otherwise, blah.

It is my understanding that those 10k are a mixed bag including autosomal and mitochondrial.

Let's see.....assuming a random sample: 3,079,843,747 human chromosome base pairs of which 57,741,652 are the Y chromosome = 1.87% Y SNPs times 10,000 unpositioned GENO 2.0 SNPs = only 187 new Y SNPs to be positioned (without even discounting for any that are mitochondrial)?

Of course the selected SNPs for Geno 2.0 are not random so prospects are not quite that gloomy, but I still don't think that I will hold my breath.

With luck, maybe FTDNA will approve my pre-release application for the new WTY and we'll find something there.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on November 23, 2012, 07:46:01 AM
It sounds like Geno 2.0 is not much good for us.

I haven't kept up with it all that much, since what I heard about it initially didn't sound all that encouraging. Is it to be applied to the Genographic Project's research samples? If so, it could be beneficial in revealing more about the distribution of L21.

Did the Genographic Project spend much effort on Europe, though? My impression, which could be wrong, of course, is that it focused more on the Third World. If that is the case, then it won't hold all that much interest for me.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on November 28, 2012, 01:35:12 AM
Opinions wanted - Possible R-DF41 Project supplement:

Keeper or Cul?
 https://www.dropbox.com/s/diz3ea981wuwnz9/DF41Supp.xlsx


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on November 28, 2012, 11:43:49 AM
Opinions wanted - Possible R-DF41 Project supplement:

Keeper or Cul?
 https://www.dropbox.com/s/diz3ea981wuwnz9/DF41Supp.xlsx


I like it, especially the tree at the bottom. Thanks!

The tables remind me of McGee's Utility, which I used to mess with a few years ago. Such things seem more useful now that we are getting greater SNP resolution.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on November 28, 2012, 02:38:56 PM
Opinions wanted - Possible R-DF41 Project supplement:

Keeper or Cul?
 https://www.dropbox.com/s/diz3ea981wuwnz9/DF41Supp.xlsx


I like it, especially the tree at the bottom. Thanks!

The tables remind me of McGee's Utility, which I used to mess with a few years ago. Such things seem more useful now that we are getting greater SNP resolution.
The tables ARE from McGee's utility Beta which now handles Y111. The tree is calculated using PHYLIP and charted using MEGAS. I looked at Fluxus Network, but the learning curve looked too steep for this OLD dog. Besides, this combination handles mixed size tests, which I'm not sure Fluxus does, and there is no point in duplicating what Mark is already doing.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mark Jost on November 28, 2012, 03:37:55 PM

The tables ARE from McGee's utility Beta which now handles Y111. The tree is calculated using PHYLIP and charted using MEGAS. I looked at Fluxus Network, but the learning curve looked too steep for this OLD dog. Besides, this combination handles mixed size tests, which I'm not sure Fluxus does, and there is no point in duplicating what Mark is already doing.
Larry,

No Fluxus can not handle mixed length haplotype. I think Phylip should either due to GD's. But a few probably wont affect it to much.

By the way, I posted this DF41 diagram on Yahoo L21 the other day.

 DF41_67Marker.pdf
Nov 24
DF41- 67Marker TMRCA & Fluxus View 

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MF-2UOry5gHRgd61-4jOV8iwlajqECYAkhnakaFgbl_u0TWm6KSRr78gPX-NwlHuZWgiBLCxP-XBUynDuIOjXbcYyRbS8w/DF41_67Marker.pdf

MJost


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on November 28, 2012, 06:46:27 PM

The tables ARE from McGee's utility Beta which now handles Y111. The tree is calculated using PHYLIP and charted using MEGAS. I looked at Fluxus Network, but the learning curve looked too steep for this OLD dog. Besides, this combination handles mixed size tests, which I'm not sure Fluxus does, and there is no point in duplicating what Mark is already doing.
Larry,

No Fluxus can not handle mixed length haplotype. I think Phylip should either due to GD's. But a few probably wont affect it to much.

By the way, I posted this DF41 diagram on Yahoo L21 the other day.

 DF41_67Marker.pdf
Nov 24
DF41- 67Marker TMRCA & Fluxus View 

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MF-2UOry5gHRgd61-4jOV8iwlajqECYAkhnakaFgbl_u0TWm6KSRr78gPX-NwlHuZWgiBLCxP-XBUynDuIOjXbcYyRbS8w/DF41_67Marker.pdf

MJost

Mark,

I love your DF41 tree, but I wasn't aware of it until a day after I had learned to drive the McGee Utility/PHYLIP/MEGAS route and posted my initial results to the DF41 Facebook group.

Your point about mixing lengths is well taken from a technical viewpoint, but I think that I am looking at a different audience.

A lot of folks join the projects who could probably care less about the genetics except as a means to better understand how they relate to other people. I believe that, to them, being included may be more important than technical accuracy even if they are only tested to Y12 as long as what they see is not too far out of the ballpark. If it is, then it provides a pretty strong argument why they should upgrade their tests for their own personal interests.

So, I think that there is room for both. I may be wrong, which is why I am seeking opinions. I had hoped to also get some from the L21 Yahoo group, but my post was interpreted as a possible virus, got pulled, and I got bounced from the group.

Oh well, such is life.

Thanks again for all of the good work you do.

Larry DF41+ L563-, L744/746-


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on November 29, 2012, 08:50:41 PM
DF41 seems to be moving kind of slowly lately. I guess that is what you get when your SNP resolution gets good enough to place you in a subclade that only amounts to about 5% or so of the DF13+ guys (which is still a lot of people).

I would be pleased if we got some new blood in our group: you know, someone in a cluster not yet known to be DF41+.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on November 29, 2012, 09:32:41 PM
DF41 seems to be moving kind of slowly lately. I guess that is what you get when your SNP resolution gets good enough to place you in a subclade that only amounts to about 5% or so of the DF13+ guys (which is still a lot of people).

I would be pleased if we got some new blood in our group: you know, someone in a cluster not yet known to be DF41+.
252650 Akers is ordering, but he is 41-1426.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on November 29, 2012, 09:56:17 PM
DF41 seems to be moving kind of slowly lately. I guess that is what you get when your SNP resolution gets good enough to place you in a subclade that only amounts to about 5% or so of the DF13+ guys (which is still a lot of people).

I would be pleased if we got some new blood in our group: you know, someone in a cluster not yet known to be DF41+.
252650 Akers is ordering, but he is 41-1426.

Well, at least we'll get a new positive result, if not a new DF41+ cluster.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on December 07, 2012, 10:24:18 PM
A few days ago we got a couple of new members who are French and from the island of Corsica. What is interesting is that their surname is Stuart, they are L745+, and they match the other royal Stewarts/Stuarts. They descend from a Stuart who went to Corsica from Belfast in the 1700s. I am reading a pdf in English that one of them sent me. It's interesting and involves some intrigue and mystery in the wake of the Jacobite Rebellion. At one point one of their ancestors or relatives (I haven't had time to sort it all out) hispanized the surname to Estuarte.



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Jdean on December 09, 2012, 05:36:15 AM
A few days ago we got a couple of new members who are French and from the island of Corsica. What is interesting is that their surname is Stuart, they are L745+, and they match the other royal Stewarts/Stuarts. They descend from a Stuart who went to Corsica from Belfast in the 1700s. I am reading a pdf in English that one of them sent me. It's interesting and involves some intrigue and mystery in the wake of the Jacobite Rebellion. At one point one of their ancestors or relatives (I haven't had time to sort it all out) hispanized the surname to Estuarte.



Scottish & Corsican !! that sounds like a heady mixture :)

Great result though, and I would say a very good example to give of DNA contributing to a family's genealogy research.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on December 09, 2012, 09:57:28 PM
It's pretty cool. It puts me in mind of one of my favorite novels of all time: Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson. Great book. I've read it several times. I may have to dust it off and read it again soon.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on December 10, 2012, 09:03:22 PM
Well, I see that GENO 2.0 results are hitting the streets without a codebook to decipher them. Confusion until Christmas when Santa is expected to drop down the chimney with codebooks galore apparently. Maybe its just as well that DF41 missed the cut.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on December 11, 2012, 04:59:52 AM
Well, I see that GENO 2.0 results are hitting the streets without a codebook to decipher them. Confusion until Christmas when Santa is expected to drop down the chimney with codebooks galore apparently. Maybe its just as well that DF41 missed the cut.

That will take some sorting out for sure.

In the meantime, our recruiting has taken an upturn the last couple of days. :-)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on December 12, 2012, 07:46:13 AM
Good news this morning for us DF41+ types: MacKenzie, kit 71100, got a DF41+ result. His mdka came from Applecross, Ross and Cromarty (modern Wester Ross), Scotland.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on December 13, 2012, 06:06:19 PM
I think that maybe I'm glad that DF41 didn't make the cut for GENO 2.0. There's an example of the kinds of things they are getting below, and it is going to take more than a day or two to sort those worms from the spagetti. Sometimes I guess that less is more.

-------------

Now after uploading my Geno data to FTDNA, my terminal SNP's are not in agreement - as follows:
1. FTDNA - M222
2. Geno - DF23


Let's hope this gets resolved soon. One possibility is that a new SNP was found between DF23 and M222, as well as other SNP's below M222?


If David Wilson or Paul Burns are reading this, are there any other M222+ people who have results to share from Geno 2.0.


My full list of SNP's - for anyone interested is:


CTS10168+, CTS10362+, CTS10834+, CTS109+, CTS11358+, CTS11468+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11985+, CTS12478+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1996+, CTS2134+, CTS2664+, CTS3063+, CTS3135+, CTS3331+, CTS3358+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3575+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4244+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4437+, CTS4443+, CTS4740+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS5577+, CTS5884+, CTS6135+, CTS623+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS7400+, CTS7659+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8243+, CTS8591+, CTS8665+, CTS8728+, CTS8980+, CTS9828+, DF23+, F1046+, F115+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F1794+, F180+, F2048+, F2075+, F211+, F212+, F2142+, F2155+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F29+, F295+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F33+, F332+, F3335+, F344+, F3556+, F356+, F359+, F3692+, F378+, F4+, F47+, F506+, F556+, F63+, F640+, F647+, F652+, F671+, F719+, F82+, F83+, F93+, L11+, L132+, L15+, L150+, L151+, L16+, L23+, L265+, L278+, L350+, L388+, L389+, L407+, L468+, L470+, L471+, L478+, L482+, L483+, L498+, L500+, L502+, L506+, L51+, L52+, L566+, L585+, L721+, L747+, L752+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L773+, L774+, L779+, L781+, L82+, M126-, M139+, M153-, M160-, M168+, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222+, M235+, M269+, M294+, M343+, M37-, M415+, M42+, M45+, M526+, M65-, M73-, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P240+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P25+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P295+, P297+, P310+, P66-, PAGES00083+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1169+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF15+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2600+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2631+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5465+, PF5466+, PF5468+, PF5471+, PF5851+, PF5853+, PF5854+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5887+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6007+, PF601+, PF6063+, PF6091+, PF6145+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6263+, PF6265+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6404+, PF6409+, PF6411+, PF6424+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6438+, PF6443+, PF6463+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, PF6524+, PF667+, PF719+, PF720+, PF725+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, s10+, s3+, SRY2627-, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000067+, YSC0000072+, YSC0000075+, YSC0000082+, YSC0000166+, YSC0000176+, YSC0000179+, YSC0000182+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000191+, YSC0000194+, YSC0000201+, YSC0000203+, YSC0000205+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000213+, YSC0000219+, YSC0000224+, YSC0000225+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000230+, YSC0000232+, YSC0000233+, YSC0000251+, YSC0000269+, YSC0000270+, YSC0000279+, YSC0000288+, YSC0000294+, Z290+



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on December 13, 2012, 08:38:32 PM
I noticed that, too. Data overload!

I remember when most of us were stuck at R-M269 (called "R1b1c" back then) and a certain poster on Rootsweb was claiming that the downstream SNPs that had been discovered - U106, U152, M222, SRY2627, and maybe a couple of others - were it.

Funny to think of that.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on December 14, 2012, 06:41:02 PM
IF DF13 did make it into GENO 2.0 hidden in that mass of information overload, maybe there is just a sprig of hope for DF41 or a subclade after all.

see http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/message/12864


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: seferhabahir on December 14, 2012, 07:54:26 PM
IF DF13 did make it into GENO 2.0 hidden in that mass of information overload, maybe there is just a sprig of hope for DF41 or a subclade after all.

see http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/message/12864

Well, I can't find those two CTS SNPs in any list of Geno 2.0 tested SNPs...


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Jdean on December 14, 2012, 08:58:18 PM
IF DF13 did make it into GENO 2.0 hidden in that mass of information overload, maybe there is just a sprig of hope for DF41 or a subclade after all.

see http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/message/12864

Well, I can't find those two CTS SNPs in any list of Geno 2.0 tested SNPs...

Somebody's tested positive for CTS6581 though according to Ymap

http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/hs_chrY?ref=ChrY;start=15501996;end=15501996;name=CTS6581;class=Sequence (http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/hs_chrY?ref=ChrY;start=15501996;end=15501996;name=CTS6581;class=Sequence)

which is apparently the same as DF41 so maybe it did make it onto the chip ?

Fingers crossed !!


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on December 14, 2012, 09:31:41 PM
IF DF13 did make it into GENO 2.0 hidden in that mass of information overload, maybe there is just a sprig of hope for DF41 or a subclade after all.

see http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/message/12864

Well, I can't find those two CTS SNPs in any list of Geno 2.0 tested SNPs...

Somebody's tested positive for CTS6581 though according to Ymap

http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/hs_chrY?ref=ChrY;start=15501996;end=15501996;name=CTS6581;class=Sequence (http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/hs_chrY?ref=ChrY;start=15501996;end=15501996;name=CTS6581;class=Sequence)

which is apparently the same as DF41 so maybe it did make it onto the chip ?

Fingers crossed !!
I think maybe you can uncross them. There is 1 positive out of 5 tests shown on Ymap, but it does not specify that those were GENO 2.0 tests. The CTS synonyms for DF63, DF13, and DF41 all have a comment of "Extracted from 1000 genomes data. Not qualified." at Ymap. Speculation: "Not qualified" = not on GENO 2.0 chip?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on December 14, 2012, 10:30:33 PM
IF DF13 did make it into GENO 2.0 hidden in that mass of information overload, maybe there is just a sprig of hope for DF41 or a subclade after all.

see http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/message/12864

Well, I can't find those two CTS SNPs in any list of Geno 2.0 tested SNPs...

Somebody's tested positive for CTS6581 though according to Ymap

http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/hs_chrY?ref=ChrY;start=15501996;end=15501996;name=CTS6581;class=Sequence (http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/hs_chrY?ref=ChrY;start=15501996;end=15501996;name=CTS6581;class=Sequence)

which is apparently the same as DF41 so maybe it did make it onto the chip ?

Fingers crossed !!

Where is that list of "Chris Tyler Smith" (CTS) SNPs that are included in the Geno 2.0? I saw it somewhere.

Was CTS6581 on it?

That would be a real boon to us, if it were.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on December 15, 2012, 10:00:51 AM
I heard from David Reynolds that CTS6581 is not included in the Geno 2.0.

So, I guess my verdict on the Geno 2.0 from a DF41+ perspective still stands: it's a dud.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on December 17, 2012, 09:01:01 PM
I heard from David Reynolds that CTS6581 is not included in the Geno 2.0.

So, I guess my verdict on the Geno 2.0 from a DF41+ perspective still stands: it's a dud.
Mayibe we'll pick up a few through the back door. I've been noticing a few GENO 2.0 strike outs that haven't tested DF41, so I posted them a reminder on L21 Yahoo.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on December 21, 2012, 10:02:14 AM
Well, we have our first continental DF41+ result: Bontron-Major, kit N67581, whose ancestor came from Montussaint in Franche Comte in eastern France, between Basel, Switzerland, and Dijon.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: eochaidh on December 21, 2012, 12:54:57 PM
Well, we have our first continental DF41+ result: Bontron-Major, kit N67581, whose ancestor came from Montussaint in Franche Comte in eastern France, between Basel, Switzerland, and Dijon.

By Alan's calculations, that would be equal to 100 French results for DF41. One result could be explained away as migrating from The Isles, but not 100. This would seem to make France the origin of DF41. The same thing has happened with DF23, M222 and other subclades of L21.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Jdean on December 21, 2012, 01:19:08 PM
dam I really miss that 'Roll Eyes' emoticon they had on DNA-Forums.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mark Jost on December 21, 2012, 02:07:35 PM
dam I really miss that 'Roll Eyes' emoticon they had on DNA-Forums.


(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-rolleyes010.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

Here is how you could show one.

MJost


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Jdean on December 21, 2012, 02:16:35 PM
dam I really miss that 'Roll Eyes' emoticon they had on DNA-Forums.


(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-rolleyes010.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

Here is how you could show one.

MJost

Clever, thanks  (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-cool05.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mark Jost on December 21, 2012, 02:37:11 PM
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sw025.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on December 21, 2012, 04:01:36 PM
Well, we have our first continental DF41+ result: Bontron-Major, kit N67581, whose ancestor came from Montussaint in Franche Comte in eastern France, between Basel, Switzerland, and Dijon.

By Alan's calculations, that would be equal to 100 French results for DF41. One result could be explained away as migrating from The Isles, but not 100. This would seem to make France the origin of DF41. The same thing has happened with DF23, M222 and other subclades of L21.

I'd love if I was a blown in from Gaul to be honest, after all I like Bordeaux wine! Leaving aside that the closest written language to Gaulish of course is Archaic Irish (as written on Ogham stones)

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on December 21, 2012, 04:28:31 PM
Well, we need some more French DF41+ results, for sure. France is under tested, and the Isles are over represented in FTDNA's database. Just the same, I'm not ready to say DF41 originated on the Continent based on one test result.

Bontron-Major has a 62/67 match with Bismire, and Bismire lists an mdka from somewhere in England (specific place unknown to me).

He also has a 35/37 match with a man with the French-looking surname Beautrow, which, if you pronounce it, sounds like a variation or corruption of Bontron.

Anyway, it's interesting, and beats the heck out of negative results. We're in the early days of these new subclades; there's a lot of learning ahead.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: alan trowel hands. on December 21, 2012, 10:02:28 PM
Well, we have our first continental DF41+ result: Bontron-Major, kit N67581, whose ancestor came from Montussaint in Franche Comte in eastern France, between Basel, Switzerland, and Dijon.

By Alan's calculations, that would be equal to 100 French results for DF41. One result could be explained away as migrating from The Isles, but not 100. This would seem to make France the origin of DF41. The same thing has happened with DF23, M222 and other subclades of L21.

Its a concept called percentages.  You have an enormous sample from one area and get 20 hits and have a tiny sample somewhere else and get one or two hits then you can hardly just simply look at totals.  I have never claimed any subclades of L21 as definatley continental in origin. 


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on December 22, 2012, 11:32:51 AM
Well, we have our first continental DF41+ result: Bontron-Major, kit N67581, whose ancestor came from Montussaint in Franche Comte in eastern France, between Basel, Switzerland, and Dijon.

By Alan's calculations, that would be equal to 100 French results for DF41. One result could be explained away as migrating from The Isles, but not 100. This would seem to make France the origin of DF41. The same thing has happened with DF23, M222 and other subclades of L21.

Its a concept called percentages.  You have an enormous sample from one area and get 20 hits and have a tiny sample somewhere else and get one or two hits then you can hardly just simply look at totals.  I have never claimed any subclades of L21 as definatley continental in origin. 
It appears to me that what is oversampled is the eastern USA and what is undersampled is the rest of the world, including the UK. And, we are trying to draw conclusions about where SNPs originated based on where ancestors were born in the 1700s or, when we get lucky, the 1600s - hundreds of years after most of these SNPs were founded. This is particularly the case with Highlanders who were very late in adopting inherited surnames, and DF41 is a Highlander SNP if there ever was one. So, I am as interested in seeing more UK residents who are closer to their ancestors through songs, poems, legends and local known histories get tested as I am in the continental aspects.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on December 22, 2012, 01:29:48 PM
While I agree that North America is probably over sampled (not that we don't want all the North Americans we can get), we do also have a fair number of actual citizens of Ireland and the UK in our database. Some of the guys in the R-DF41 and Subclades Project are native-born residents of Ireland or the UK, for example, and quite a few of the guys in the R-L21 Plus Project are. France, though, along with many other places, is seriously under tested. So, Alan is right, when we get a French result it has added significance merely by virtue of the relative scarcity of French y-dna test results.

I'm not saying that Bontron-Major's DF41+ result is the equal of 100 Isles DF41+ results, though. I really don't know what it means beyond the mere fact of it.



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Forsythe on December 23, 2012, 07:01:56 AM

 and DF41 is a Highlander SNP if there ever was one.

Can you provide some examples please...


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on December 23, 2012, 12:51:24 PM

 and DF41 is a Highlander SNP if there ever was one.

Can you provide some examples please...
That qualifies as a definite gotcha.

I tend to think of Highlanders more in cultural terms than topographic as the last of the Gaelic culture and language to be Anglicized. On a map, I envision this as a general area surrounding a diagonal from about Inverness on the northeast to about Galloway on the southwest more or less parallel to the Great Glen Rift. About two-thirds of positioned DF41 pins are in this area, and yes, the majority of those are currently in what is now Northern Ireland. Saint Columba, an Irish exile, and his missionaries profoundly influenced the culture of the portions of Scotland and the Hebrides within this general area, and the Irish-raised Donald and Constantine pretty much finished the Gaelicizing of the Picts. So, if you would prefer that DF41 be referred to as Irish rather than Highlander, I have no argument with that either until the French can position enough pins to support their claim to it.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on December 23, 2012, 02:43:14 PM
I don't know. I wish DF41 were that specific, but we're starting to pick up a Welsh contingent (I may be one of them). It's true there was considerable Gaelic/Irish settlement in Wales, so it's possible that could account for it.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on December 23, 2012, 02:59:29 PM
I would point out though that Galloway does have somewhat of a distinct history compared to say Argyll and areas in the Highland which were the original area of Gaelic encroacement into Scotland.

Galloway after all is named after the Gall-Ghaeil (Foreign Gaels eg. Gaelicised Vikings), it was seperated from the rest of Gaelic speaking Scotland in early stages by the Brythonic speaking Kingdom of Strathclyde, it's probable that the area was Brythonic speaking before the arrival of the Gall-Ghaeil (some have said the same for Isle of Man).

What we could be seeing with 1426c in Galloway region is local lineage that perhaps was originally Brythonic (Old Welsh) speaking and then switched to Old-Irish. Not a huge leap tbh. I should point out that the dialects spoken in Galloway were of the southern branch of "Scottish Gaelic" continuum and show alot of similarity to Irish.

Personally given spread and divergence we see among DF41 folk I think the best we can say is an Insular Celtic lineage that spread into both islands at an early stage. I recall some of the TMRCA calculations Mark did comparing myself and 1426c was on order of 2,000 years.

Of course what's also interesting is that M222 which seems older in Southern Scotland/Northern England also expanded into Ireland in much the same period. Coincidence perhaps? who knows.

Wikipedia has a usefull map showing the linguistic situation around 1400, by which stage "Scots" (anglian) had expanded westword.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Languages_of_Scotland_1400_AD.svg

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Forsythe on December 23, 2012, 03:05:28 PM
I am not sure that one can definately pinpoint it as a Highlander SNP being that it is such a small cluster and has a significant lack of ancient Gaelic surnames.  Time will tell as more DF41 results come in....


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on December 23, 2012, 04:33:36 PM
I think the folks analyzing the 1000 Genomes Project data (which is how DF41 was discovered) said it probably accounts for about 5% of L21. That's not all that small, and DF41 already includes several separate haplotype clusters; it isn't just one.

I haven't analyzed the spread of all these recently discovered DF13+ clades, but it strikes me that they all have similar distributions, that is, centered about the Irish Sea, which should apparently be renamed "Lake L21". It's definitely Mare Nostrum.

As for "ancient Gaelic surnames", DF41 is relatively new but already has Duffy, MacKenzie, MacMillan, McBirnie, and McCown, and I don't think we're done yet.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on December 23, 2012, 04:56:47 PM
The distribution of Irish standing stones, many with Ogham inscriptions, gives one an idea of the extent of Irish settlement in Wales. There is a map here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ogham.Inscriptions.Wales.jpg) showing where the stones are in Wales.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on December 23, 2012, 06:15:25 PM
I think the folks analyzing the 1000 Genomes Project data (which is how DF41 was discovered) said it probably accounts for about 5% of L21. That's not all that small, and DF41 already includes several separate haplotype clusters; it isn't just one.

I haven't analyzed the spread of all these recently discovered DF13+ clades, but it strikes me that they all have similar distributions, that is, centered about the Irish Sea, which should apparently be renamed "Lake L21". It's definitely Mare Nostrum.

As for "ancient Gaelic surnames", DF41 is relatively new but already has Duffy, MacKenzie, MacMillan, McBirnie, and McCown, and I don't think we're done yet.


I left out the surname McCrere. Didn't mean to do that. Probably did it because it's in the L563+ category (a DF41+ SNP).


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on December 23, 2012, 07:07:46 PM

As for "ancient Gaelic surnames", DF41 is relatively new but already has Duffy, MacKenzie, MacMillan, McBirnie, and McCown, and I don't think we're done yet.


I left out the surname McCrere. Didn't mean to do that. Probably did it because it's in the L563+ category (a DF41+ SNP).

And me. MacNucator (aka Walker) LOL


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on December 23, 2012, 09:52:16 PM
Regarding the French connection. I see his MDKS is listed as Montussaint France. If you stick this into Google maps you see that it's right beside Bordeaux. A major seaport in the traderoutes between Ireland/Britain and France (particulary wine) during the middle ages. That whole area had alot of migration coming in from Ireland in particular during the 16th-18th centuries. Even to this day there are several brands of wine from area that are known as "Wild geese wine" (B&G, Lynch etc.) and of course just up the road you have the town of Cognac and the most famous of the "Wine Geese" families -- Hennessy


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on December 24, 2012, 07:51:44 AM
The Montussaint Bontron-Major's ancestor came from is over on the other side of France from Bordeaux. It's in Franche-Comte, fairly close to Switzerland.

I won't deny there's a possibility that Bontron-Major could ultimately be the y descendant of an Isles expatriate, but I am very reluctant to believe that is the case. That was what so many people said about L21 on the Continent in the early days, before we had many continental results.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on December 24, 2012, 08:37:02 AM
The Montussaint Bontron-Major's ancestor came from is over on the other side of France from Bordeaux. It's in Franche-Comte, fairly close to Switzerland.

I won't deny there's a possibility that Bontron-Major could ultimately be the y descendant of an Isles expatriate, but I am very reluctant to believe that is the case. That was what so many people said about L21 on the Continent in the early days, before we had many continental results.

Indeed well hopefully we can get some more of his matches to test. I do see (looking at Alex Williamson last 67marker tree) that he's down as been a member of Mikes 41-1411 cluster which of course is the same cluster that we see L563 show up in. Though he's on a earlier branch along with Bismire. Might be worth suggesting L563 even just to rule it out.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on December 24, 2012, 11:52:07 AM
I'm pretty sure if we offer to pay for his L563 test, the lady in charge of the kit will give the go ahead. Otherwise, I doubt the test will take place.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on December 24, 2012, 12:46:21 PM
The Montussaint Bontron-Major's ancestor came from is over on the other side of France from Bordeaux. It's in Franche-Comte, fairly close to Switzerland.

I won't deny there's a possibility that Bontron-Major could ultimately be the y descendant of an Isles expatriate, but I am very reluctant to believe that is the case. That was what so many people said about L21 on the Continent in the early days, before we had many continental results.
258107 COMEAU appears fairly close (11 of 12), is French, and has a 1450 ancestor - but he is only tested to Y12 which appears to be the case for LOTS of the French Heritage kits. He is M269+ with no further tests.

Indeed well hopefully we can get some more of his matches to test. I do see (looking at Alex Williamson last 67marker tree) that he's down as been a member of Mikes 41-1411 cluster which of course is the same cluster that we see L563 show up in. Though he's on a earlier branch along with Bismire. Might be worth suggesting L563 even just to rule it out.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on December 24, 2012, 12:55:29 PM
That got garbled. It should have said this:

258107 COMEAU appears fairly close (11 of 12), is French, and has a 1450 ancestor - but he is only tested to Y12 which appears to be the case for LOTS of the French Heritage kits. He is M269+ with no further tests.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on December 25, 2012, 11:10:51 AM
Bismire, kit 222670, Ysearch 5JWWU, just got his DF41+ result. His mdka came from London.

He is 5 off Bontron-Major at 67 markers.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on December 26, 2012, 09:19:56 AM
Here's a rundown of those awaiting DF41 results from FTDNA, at least in the R-L21 Plus Project:

Morrison, kit 48157 (he matches the other DF41+ Morrisons, so he's good)
Finn, 104990 (Ireland)
MacKenzie, 185705 (Scotland)
Gadiou, 226146 (he's a Norman and has 534=14, which is better than nothing)
Le Gall, 233625 (Bretagne)
Griffith, 259187 (Wales)
Chandler, 11143 (England)

I have no idea how any of these will come out, except Morrison.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on December 28, 2012, 09:24:17 AM
Here's a rundown of those awaiting DF41 results from FTDNA, at least in the R-L21 Plus Project:

Morrison, kit 48157 (he matches the other DF41+ Morrisons, so he's good)
Finn, 104990 (Ireland)
MacKenzie, 185705 (Scotland)
Gadiou, 226146 (he's a Norman and has 534=14, which is better than nothing)
Le Gall, 233625 (Bretagne)
Griffith, 259187 (Wales)
Chandler, 11143 (England)

I have no idea how any of these will come out, except Morrison.


Update:

Morrison is now officially DF41+, and Gadiou is officially DF41-. The rest are still waiting.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 22, 2013, 05:22:47 PM
Larry, I just noticed your posted results include PF1169+. That is reportedly downstream of M222+ and puts you in fairly select company.

Please consider joining this project at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-PF1169/

I think that maybe I'm glad that DF41 didn't make the cut for GENO 2.0. There's an example of the kinds of things they are getting below, and it is going to take more than a day or two to sort those worms from the spagetti. Sometimes I guess that less is more.

-------------

Now after uploading my Geno data to FTDNA, my terminal SNP's are not in agreement - as follows:
1. FTDNA - M222
2. Geno - DF23


Let's hope this gets resolved soon. One possibility is that a new SNP was found between DF23 and M222, as well as other SNP's below M222?


If David Wilson or Paul Burns are reading this, are there any other M222+ people who have results to share from Geno 2.0.


My full list of SNP's - for anyone interested is:


CTS10168+, CTS10362+, CTS10834+, CTS109+, CTS11358+, CTS11468+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11985+, CTS12478+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1996+, CTS2134+, CTS2664+, CTS3063+, CTS3135+, CTS3331+, CTS3358+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3575+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4244+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4437+, CTS4443+, CTS4740+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS5577+, CTS5884+, CTS6135+, CTS623+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS7400+, CTS7659+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8243+, CTS8591+, CTS8665+, CTS8728+, CTS8980+, CTS9828+, DF23+, F1046+, F115+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F1794+, F180+, F2048+, F2075+, F211+, F212+, F2142+, F2155+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F29+, F295+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F33+, F332+, F3335+, F344+, F3556+, F356+, F359+, F3692+, F378+, F4+, F47+, F506+, F556+, F63+, F640+, F647+, F652+, F671+, F719+, F82+, F83+, F93+, L11+, L132+, L15+, L150+, L151+, L16+, L23+, L265+, L278+, L350+, L388+, L389+, L407+, L468+, L470+, L471+, L478+, L482+, L483+, L498+, L500+, L502+, L506+, L51+, L52+, L566+, L585+, L721+, L747+, L752+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L773+, L774+, L779+, L781+, L82+, M126-, M139+, M153-, M160-, M168+, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222+, M235+, M269+, M294+, M343+, M37-, M415+, M42+, M45+, M526+, M65-, M73-, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P240+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P25+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P295+, P297+, P310+, P66-, PAGES00083+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1169+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF15+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2600+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2631+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5465+, PF5466+, PF5468+, PF5471+, PF5851+, PF5853+, PF5854+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5887+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6007+, PF601+, PF6063+, PF6091+, PF6145+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6263+, PF6265+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6404+, PF6409+, PF6411+, PF6424+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6438+, PF6443+, PF6463+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, PF6524+, PF667+, PF719+, PF720+, PF725+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, s10+, s3+, SRY2627-, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000067+, YSC0000072+, YSC0000075+, YSC0000082+, YSC0000166+, YSC0000176+, YSC0000179+, YSC0000182+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000191+, YSC0000194+, YSC0000201+, YSC0000203+, YSC0000205+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000213+, YSC0000219+, YSC0000224+, YSC0000225+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000230+, YSC0000232+, YSC0000233+, YSC0000251+, YSC0000269+, YSC0000270+, YSC0000279+, YSC0000288+, YSC0000294+, Z290+




Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on January 22, 2013, 05:43:22 PM
Larry, I just noticed your posted results include PF1169+. That is reportedly downstream of M222+ and puts you in fairly select company.

Please consider joining this project at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-PF1169/

I think that maybe I'm glad that DF41 didn't make the cut for GENO 2.0. There's an example of the kinds of things they are getting below, and it is going to take more than a day or two to sort those worms from the spagetti. Sometimes I guess that less is more.

-------------

Now after uploading my Geno data to FTDNA, my terminal SNP's are not in agreement - as follows:
1. FTDNA - M222
2. Geno - DF23


Let's hope this gets resolved soon. One possibility is that a new SNP was found between DF23 and M222, as well as other SNP's below M222?


If David Wilson or Paul Burns are reading this, are there any other M222+ people who have results to share from Geno 2.0.


My full list of SNP's - for anyone interested is:


CTS10168+, CTS10362+, CTS10834+, CTS109+, CTS11358+, CTS11468+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11985+, CTS12478+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1996+, CTS2134+, CTS2664+, CTS3063+, CTS3135+, CTS3331+, CTS3358+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3575+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4244+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4437+, CTS4443+, CTS4740+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS5577+, CTS5884+, CTS6135+, CTS623+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS7400+, CTS7659+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8243+, CTS8591+, CTS8665+, CTS8728+, CTS8980+, CTS9828+, DF23+, F1046+, F115+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F1794+, F180+, F2048+, F2075+, F211+, F212+, F2142+, F2155+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F29+, F295+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F33+, F332+, F3335+, F344+, F3556+, F356+, F359+, F3692+, F378+, F4+, F47+, F506+, F556+, F63+, F640+, F647+, F652+, F671+, F719+, F82+, F83+, F93+, L11+, L132+, L15+, L150+, L151+, L16+, L23+, L265+, L278+, L350+, L388+, L389+, L407+, L468+, L470+, L471+, L478+, L482+, L483+, L498+, L500+, L502+, L506+, L51+, L52+, L566+, L585+, L721+, L747+, L752+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L773+, L774+, L779+, L781+, L82+, M126-, M139+, M153-, M160-, M168+, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222+, M235+, M269+, M294+, M343+, M37-, M415+, M42+, M45+, M526+, M65-, M73-, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P240+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P25+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P295+, P297+, P310+, P66-, PAGES00083+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1169+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF15+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2600+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2631+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5465+, PF5466+, PF5468+, PF5471+, PF5851+, PF5853+, PF5854+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5887+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6007+, PF601+, PF6063+, PF6091+, PF6145+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6263+, PF6265+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6404+, PF6409+, PF6411+, PF6424+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6438+, PF6443+, PF6463+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, PF6524+, PF667+, PF719+, PF720+, PF725+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, s10+, s3+, SRY2627-, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000067+, YSC0000072+, YSC0000075+, YSC0000082+, YSC0000166+, YSC0000176+, YSC0000179+, YSC0000182+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000191+, YSC0000194+, YSC0000201+, YSC0000203+, YSC0000205+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000213+, YSC0000219+, YSC0000224+, YSC0000225+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000230+, YSC0000232+, YSC0000233+, YSC0000251+, YSC0000269+, YSC0000270+, YSC0000279+, YSC0000288+, YSC0000294+, Z290+



Larry hasn't done GENO 2.0 testing, the above his him quoting another poster. By the way going on SNP result page in Ireland project PF1169+ is also found in Haplogroup A!

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on February 02, 2013, 11:51:02 AM
Well, Rotrou, kit E5171, Makepeace, kit 124651, and Iseman, kit N42297, are all DF41-. McClellan, kit 21647, is DF41+, but that was no big surprise, since he is a fairly close haplotype neighbor to the McCown/McCune group. What little faith I had in Williamson's last joining tree is gone now. Don't get me wrong, I'm not faulting Williamson himself. The fault lies with the joining tree. I'm sure as it is refined further, it will become a better tool. There were a couple of other DF41 results, all negative, but no one we had on our radar.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Jdean on February 02, 2013, 12:23:40 PM
Well, Rotrou, kit E5171, Makepeace, kit 124651, and Iseman, kit N42297, are all DF41-. McClellan, kit 21647, is DF41+, but that was no big surprise, since he is a fairly close haplotype neighbor to the McCown/McCune group. What little faith I had in Williamson's last joining tree is gone now. Don't get me wrong, I'm not faulting Williamson himself. The fault lies with the joining tree. I'm sure as it is refined further, it will become a better tool. There were a couple of other DF41 results, all negative, but no one we had on our radar.


Ho hum, FTDNA are in super crawl mode at the moment which is frustrating enough by itself but doubly so when nothing interesting turns up.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on February 02, 2013, 09:46:14 PM
Well, Rotrou, kit E5171, Makepeace, kit 124651, and Iseman, kit N42297, are all DF41-. McClellan, kit 21647, is DF41+, but that was no big surprise, since he is a fairly close haplotype neighbor to the McCown/McCune group. What little faith I had in Williamson's last joining tree is gone now. Don't get me wrong, I'm not faulting Williamson himself. The fault lies with the joining tree. I'm sure as it is refined further, it will become a better tool. There were a couple of other DF41 results, all negative, but no one we had on our radar.


Ho hum, FTDNA are in super crawl mode at the moment which is frustrating enough by itself but doubly so when nothing interesting turns up.

Too true.

I'm also waiting for my 111-marker upgrade, which has a predicted due date of 18 Feb 2013. I'm hoping it's early.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: seferhabahir on February 02, 2013, 10:28:54 PM

Ho hum, FTDNA are in super crawl mode at the moment which is frustrating enough by itself but doubly so when nothing interesting turns up.

Too true.

I'm also waiting for my 111-marker upgrade, which has a predicted due date of 18 Feb 2013. I'm hoping it's early.

Ditto


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: OConnor on February 05, 2013, 08:35:44 PM
Feb 18th is also my due date for Family Finder.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on February 10, 2013, 10:26:45 AM
The latest scuttlebutt is that Geno 2.0's CTS2501 is either downstream of DF41 or equivalent to it. There are two guys in the R-L21 Plus Project who are CTS2501+: B2895, Bettcher (no listed mdka), and 57001, McConnell (mdka from New Jersey, b. 1830).

McConnell has DF41 on order. Hopefully, Bettcher will order it, as well. I have contacted him.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on February 10, 2013, 02:56:02 PM
The latest scuttlebutt is that Geno 2.0's CTS2501 is either downstream of DF41 or equivalent to it. There are two guys in the R-L21 Plus Project who are CTS2501+: B2895, Bettcher (no listed mdka), and 57001, McConnell (mdka from New Jersey, b. 1830).

McConnell has DF41 on order. Hopefully, Bettcher will order it, as well. I have contacted him.


I forgot to mention that there is the possibility that CTS2501 is upstream of DF41, with all DF41+ men CTS2501+ but some CTS2501+ guys DF41-. It's also possible possible that CTS2501 is a "weasel SNP": my term for one of those flaky pseudo-SNPs that pop up time and again in different haplogroups and are too unstable to be much good.

We're going to try to figure all this out.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on February 10, 2013, 03:50:29 PM
Also 143035 Stewart who is L745+ CTS2501+.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on February 10, 2013, 06:27:50 PM
Also 143035 Stewart who is L745+ CTS2501+.

So CTS2501 could be between DF41 and L744.

Bettcher now has DF41 on order. I hope he is DF41+.

We'll know in a month or so, maybe even sooner.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on February 10, 2013, 07:10:02 PM
Also 143035 Stewart who is L745+ CTS2501+.

So CTS2501 could be between DF41 and L744.

Bettcher now has DF41 on order. I hope he is DF41+.

We'll know in a month or so, maybe even sooner.


I take the part about L744 back. Isn't L744 included in Geno 2.0? If it is, we'd know if they were L744+, and neither McConnell nor Bettcher is L744+. So, scratch that, I guess.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: df.reynolds on February 11, 2013, 12:04:19 AM
Also 143035 Stewart who is L745+ CTS2501+.

So CTS2501 could be between DF41 and L744.

Bettcher now has DF41 on order. I hope he is DF41+.

We'll know in a month or so, maybe even sooner.


I take the part about L744 back. Isn't L744 included in Geno 2.0? If it is, we'd know if they were L744+, and neither McConnell nor Bettcher is L744+. So, scratch that, I guess.

Correct. Geno 2.0 results show both McConnell and Bettcher as L744-.

--david


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on February 11, 2013, 08:07:43 PM
I guess it could still be between DF41 and L744, since McConnell and Bettcher are L744- but CTS2501+, and there's a Stewart who is CTS2501+ and L744+.

I'm hoping it's just equivalent to DF41.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on February 12, 2013, 05:57:52 AM
If it's equivalent to DF41 then we at least get some positive feedback from Geno 2.0. If it's above DF41 well I'd just regard it as new DF13 for me. My terminal SNP is still gonna be DF41+

The news regarding L247(.2) for 1426 cluster is interesting. I'm assuming it's included in Geno 2.0 correct?

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: df.reynolds on February 12, 2013, 02:48:31 PM
If it's equivalent to DF41 then we at least get some positive feedback from Geno 2.0. If it's above DF41 well I'd just regard it as new DF13 for me. My terminal SNP is still gonna be DF41+

The news regarding L247(.2) for 1426 cluster is interesting. I'm assuming it's included in Geno 2.0 correct?

-Paul
(DF41+)

Yes, L247 is in Geno 2.0. I've included it in the DF41 section of the R-L21 Summary Table:
http://daver.info/WTY/R-L21.pdf

--david


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on February 14, 2013, 01:01:08 AM
If McConnel tests DF41+, then CTS11440 is going to also come into play.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on February 14, 2013, 08:41:34 PM
If McConnel tests DF41+, then CTS11440 is going to also come into play.

I hope he does.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on February 15, 2013, 11:56:41 AM
L247

  Thanks to Chris and Paul, we now have several tests on order that should:

1. If any one test is positive, will qualify L247 for the ISOGG tree.

2. Will position it below DF41 relative to known DF41 clusters and subclades.

Given the apparent backlog at FTDNA, it will probably be 6 weeks to two months before we know the results.

Cheers,
Larry Walker
240201 DF41+
 (cross-posted to L21-Yahoo)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on February 15, 2013, 09:26:47 PM
L247

  Thanks to Chris and Paul, we now have several tests on order that should:

1. If any one test is positive, will qualify L247 for the ISOGG tree.

2. Will position it below DF41 relative to known DF41 clusters and subclades.

Given the apparent backlog at FTDNA, it will probably be 6 weeks to two months before we know the results.

Cheers,
Larry Walker
240201 DF41+
 (cross-posted to L21-Yahoo)

What's the info on L247 thus far? Why do we suspect it's below DF41?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on February 16, 2013, 02:15:38 AM
L247

  Thanks to Chris and Paul, we now have several tests on order that should:

1. If any one test is positive, will qualify L247 for the ISOGG tree.

2. Will position it below DF41 relative to known DF41 clusters and subclades.

Given the apparent backlog at FTDNA, it will probably be 6 weeks to two months before we know the results.

Cheers,
Larry Walker
240201 DF41+
 (cross-posted to L21-Yahoo)

What's the info on L247 thus far? Why do we suspect it's below DF41?

A semi-"private" FTDNA McCown match is DF41+ CTS2501+ L247+ and a 5 of 7 match for 41-1426C-A. He gave David permission to use his GENO2 data, so you can find him listed as L247+ in the DF41 section at http://daver.info/WTY/R-L21.pdf .


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on February 16, 2013, 10:43:15 AM
Okay, thanks. So we are testing to see if it turns up in any non-McCowns and if it meets the other requirements for inclusion on ISOGG's R Tree.



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on March 05, 2013, 11:07:26 AM
Cross-posted from Yahoo:

My latest version of a DF41 tree is posted at http://rangebiome.org/ClanDF41.jpg . This is a permalink for the latest version whatever that may be.

Anybody who is DF41+ and wants to be included in this tree needs to join the R-DF41 & Subclades Project http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF41/default.aspx?section=yresults .

Cheers,
Larry Walker
240201 DF41+


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on March 05, 2013, 11:30:20 AM
Clann is a good term, after all in Irish it actually means "Children" eg. Children of Dubhthach = Clann Uí Dhubhthaigh (aka. The Duffy's). In sense we are all "Children" of Mr. DF41+ the first man that the SNP arose in.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 07, 2013, 01:45:24 AM
Clann is a good term, after all in Irish it actually means "Children" eg. Children of Dubhthach = Clann Uí Dhubhthaigh (aka. The Duffy's). In sense we are all "Children" of Mr. DF41+ the first man that the SNP arose in....

I liked the word "clan" too, but have been scolded, once by a Dutchman and once by a Frenchman, that are in my haplogroup.  I ended up with more neutral terminology because the last people I want to lose are the continentals.

They feel like the word "clan" is some kind of Irish thing that excludes them.

I don't know. I'm just reporting my experience.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Maliclavelli on March 07, 2013, 02:58:40 AM
I liked the word "clan" too, but have been scolded, once by a Dutchman and once by a Frenchman, that are in my haplogroup.  I ended up with more neutral terminology because the last people I want to lose are the continentals.
They feel like the word "clan" is some kind of Irish thing that excludes them.
I don't know. I'm just reporting my experience.

I think you may use this word also for continental people. Also in Etruscan “clan” does mean “son”: plural: clenar. Of course I haven’t studied the possible link between the Celt and the Etruscan word, but I wouldn’t exclude a possible link. Someone said that Celt *p- from *kw- was due to Etruscan influence.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on March 07, 2013, 04:51:20 AM
Clann is a good term, after all in Irish it actually means "Children" eg. Children of Dubhthach = Clann Uí Dhubhthaigh (aka. The Duffy's). In sense we are all "Children" of Mr. DF41+ the first man that the SNP arose in....

I liked the word "clan" too, but have been scolded, once by a Dutchman and once by a Frenchman, that are in my haplogroup.  I ended up with more neutral terminology because the last people I want to lose are the continentals.

They feel like the word "clan" is some kind of Irish thing that excludes them.

I don't know. I'm just reporting my experience.

Personally, I'll stick with Clan DF41. We have our token  French kit (we paid for the test) and, if other continentals aspire to the honor of being a member of Clan DF41 - then we are a tolerant lot and they are welcome to join. If they are not equally tolerant, then they must have different genes and maybe we don't want them anyway?

Cheers,
Larry Clan DF41


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on March 07, 2013, 05:18:44 AM
Clann is a good term, after all in Irish it actually means "Children" eg. Children of Dubhthach = Clann Uí Dhubhthaigh (aka. The Duffy's). In sense we are all "Children" of Mr. DF41+ the first man that the SNP arose in....

I liked the word "clan" too, but have been scolded, once by a Dutchman and once by a Frenchman, that are in my haplogroup.  I ended up with more neutral terminology because the last people I want to lose are the continentals.

They feel like the word "clan" is some kind of Irish thing that excludes them.

I don't know. I'm just reporting my experience.

Ironic as it's a loan word originally from Latin that arrived in Irish via Brythonic! (Old Welsh!)

---
From Old Irish cland ("children, family, offspring"), from Old Welsh plant ("children"), from Latin planta ("shoot, twig, sprout").
---

Early loanwords from Welsh/Latin often underwent a sound change to fit the fact that archaic Irish didn't have a P sound. (P is found in modern irish in loan words).

As a result St. Patrick was originally known in Irish as:

Cothraige, which eventually gave way to modern Irish: Pádraig / Pádraic

The original name obviously been the Latin: Patricius



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on March 17, 2013, 07:37:54 AM
Robert Casey spotted another likely DF41+ who appears to be in the cluster (41-1123) I share with David Samuel, Dick Webb, Chuck Self, Paul Cooper, the Beddoes, Jim Price, Scott Mayson, and others. He is a Dugger, kit 154617. I'm trying to arrange to get him tested for DF41. He has 111 str markers already, so it seems he might be enthusiastic enough to go for it. I think Dugger is a Scots surname.

http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/dugger/results (http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/dugger/results)



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on March 22, 2013, 04:48:47 PM
I see that McConnell, kit 57001, and Simpson, kit 127844, are DF41+.

I see there are other SNP results, as well, but I am in Mountshannon, Ireland, tonight and not at my home computer, so I cannot do much. Moving folks around will have to wait until I get back home on Wednesday or Thursday.

After a rocky start this morning, including some dismal weather and getting lost a couple of times, we had a great time. What a beautiful place! The people are super. Driving on the left and from what for me is the passenger's side of the car are real challenges. They are exacerbated by Irish "roundabouts" and some of the narrowest roads I've ever seen, but I'm doing okay.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mark Jost on March 22, 2013, 09:25:38 PM
Enjoy your time there!

MJost


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: seferhabahir on March 22, 2013, 10:55:10 PM
Enjoy your time there!

MJost

Hey, I'm going to Australia soon. Wonder if there are any DF41 people there. Might be. They all drive on the wrong side of the road there, too. I think I'll leave the driving to others, and just take the trains.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on March 23, 2013, 06:13:49 AM
I see that McConnell, kit 57001, and Simpson, kit 127844, are DF41+.

I see there are other SNP results, as well, but I am in Mountshannon, Ireland, tonight and not at my home computer, so I cannot do much. Moving folks around will have to wait until I get back home on Wednesday or Thursday.

After a rocky start this morning, including some dismal weather and getting lost a couple of times, we had a great time. What a beautiful place! The people are super. Driving on the left and from what for me is the passenger's side of the car are real challenges. They are exacerbated by Irish "roundabouts" and some of the narrowest roads I've ever seen, but I'm doing okay.

Driving in Italy I had same experience but in reverse, didn't help that I kept putting my left hand into the side of door everytime I wanted to shift gears!

Rural roads tend to be quite tight, however for any "inter-city" travel stick to the Motorways (M18, M6, M7 etc.) which have bluesigns. They are all fairly new built in last 5 years or so. (Motorway = Freeway).

You spending most of time down in and around Clare or ye going travel around abit? The weather is atrocious, we had leaking in our office server room yesterday it was that bad. Even for Ireland this is bad weather for March.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: F James on March 24, 2013, 12:00:50 AM
Enjoy your time there!

MJost

Hey, I'm going to Australia soon. Wonder if there are any DF41 people there. Might be. They all drive on the wrong side of the road there, too. I think I'll leave the driving to others, and just take the trains.


Of course we will have DF41 people in Australia,  we were a Britsh colony, but getting them to test is the difficult part.
Its the LEFT side of the road to us here in Aus,  same as the UK.
I just got back from Thailand,  and  they drive on the left aswell.



Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on March 28, 2013, 01:40:42 PM
I see that McConnell, kit 57001, and Simpson, kit 127844, are DF41+.

I see there are other SNP results, as well, but I am in Mountshannon, Ireland, tonight and not at my home computer, so I cannot do much. Moving folks around will have to wait until I get back home on Wednesday or Thursday.

After a rocky start this morning, including some dismal weather and getting lost a couple of times, we had a great time. What a beautiful place! The people are super. Driving on the left and from what for me is the passenger's side of the car are real challenges. They are exacerbated by Irish "roundabouts" and some of the narrowest roads I've ever seen, but I'm doing okay.

Driving in Italy I had same experience but in reverse, didn't help that I kept putting my left hand into the side of door everytime I wanted to shift gears!

Rural roads tend to be quite tight, however for any "inter-city" travel stick to the Motorways (M18, M6, M7 etc.) which have bluesigns. They are all fairly new built in last 5 years or so. (Motorway = Freeway).

You spending most of time down in and around Clare or ye going travel around abit? The weather is atrocious, we had leaking in our office server room yesterday it was that bad. Even for Ireland this is bad weather for March.

-Paul
(DF41+)

We hung around the West and Southwest but moved around a bit. I got used to driving on the left and from the right side of the car so that it seemed like second nature by the second or third day or so. It got easier each day. We had to travel some narrow country lanes to go where we wanted to go and see what we wanted to see, however. I found myself scrunching my shoulders together every time I saw a big truck coming, as if that would make my car narrower.

Beautiful countryside. I'm glad we tooled around out in the country and avoided the cities (for the most part). We did, however, spend a whole day walking around in Galway, which we loved. We were walking along the water when a couple of seals bobbed up and started following us. I guess they were hoping we'd throw them some fish or something. My daughter got an enormous thrill out of that.

There's lots more to tell. My favorite spot was the Half Barrel Pub in Whitegate, County Clare, in the evenings. Loved it. Just thinking about it makes me hungry and thirsty.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on March 28, 2013, 02:55:40 PM
Seals come into the mouth of Corrib a fair bit. It's a major Salmon fishery, Lough Corrib is just 4-5miles north of city center and is biggest lake in Republic (second biggest on island). Always plenty of fly fishing going on in the city center, so it's no wonder the seals take their portion as well.

Galway is a great place, then again as a "Tribesman" (Galway native) I would say that!

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on March 28, 2013, 05:21:25 PM
Seals come into the mouth of Corrib a fair bit. It's a major Salmon fishery, Lough Corrib is just 4-5miles north of city center and is biggest lake in Republic (second biggest on island). Always plenty of fly fishing going on in the city center, so it's no wonder the seals take their portion as well.

Galway is a great place, then again as a "Tribesman" (Galway native) I would say that!

-Paul
(DF41+)

You have a lot to be justifiably proud of. We all loved Galway, and I am not normally a fan of cities. We went to Galway Cathedral, which was just lovely, and another big church not far from it. I don't recall the name of the second church right off hand, but it had a big grotto outside with a statue of the Blessed Virgin. Perhaps you know the one I am talking about.

We attended Palm Sunday Mass in the little church in Whitegate, however. The folks back at our home church will be envious.

I really enjoyed the little town of Ennistimon, with the river Inagh running through it just behind the main street. Beautiful place. We went into the Super Valu there, bought some drinks, and strolled around town.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on April 01, 2013, 02:36:04 PM
Swanson, kit 99735, and his closest match, Burns, kit 63274, both now have DF41 on order. I believe they are in that same 1410V cluster that McConnell, kit 57001, our recently-minted DF41+, is in. Like McConnell, Swanson has a CTS2501+ result from Geno 2.0.

Swanson traces his mdka to Sweden, but Burns is a Scot with an mdka from Northern Ireland.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on April 06, 2013, 05:12:29 PM
DF41, CTS2501, CTS11440, L247 status

Cross-Posted.

The GENO2 results for N51747 Arthur raised the possibility that L247 might be downstream of DF41, and might be specific to 41-1426.

That now appears not to be the case as representatives from all of the major DF41 clusters have tested negative for L247 as follows:

57001, McConnell, not clustered
143035, Stewart, 41-744 (L745+)
176148, Duffy, 41-1013
59080, Stevens, 41-1123
35212, Creer, 41-1411 (L563+)
240201, Walker, 41-1426C*
78799, Smith, 41-1426C-A

GENO2 results also indicated that CTS2501 is associated with DF41. 57001 McConnell has now tested DF41+, increasing the likelyhood that CTS2501 is equivalent to or upstream of DF41, though a possibility of child status does remain.

This also brings CTS11440 into play as a possible child of DF41, and considerably broadens the possible bounds of DF41 while pushing its possible age back another couple of centuries.

Now, we go back to waiting for more results.

Cheers,
Larry Walker
240201 DF41+


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on April 07, 2013, 08:04:07 AM
DF41, CTS2501, CTS11440, L247 status

Cross-Posted.

The GENO2 results for N51747 Arthur raised the possibility that L247 might be downstream of DF41, and might be specific to 41-1426.

That now appears not to be the case as representatives from all of the major DF41 clusters have tested negative for L247 as follows:

57001, McConnell, not clustered
143035, Stewart, 41-744 (L745+)
176148, Duffy, 41-1013
59080, Stevens, 41-1123
35212, Creer, 41-1411 (L563+)
240201, Walker, 41-1426C*
78799, Smith, 41-1426C-A

GENO2 results also indicated that CTS2501 is associated with DF41. 57001 McConnell has now tested DF41+, increasing the likelyhood that CTS2501 is equivalent to or upstream of DF41, though a possibility of child status does remain.

This also brings CTS11440 into play as a possible child of DF41, and considerably broadens the possible bounds of DF41 while pushing its possible age back another couple of centuries.

Now, we go back to waiting for more results.

Cheers,
Larry Walker
240201 DF41+

Bettcher, kit B2895, and Swanson, kit 99735, are both CTS2501+ and are awaiting DF41 results. Swanson's closest 67-marker match (60/67), Burns, kit 63274, has also ordered DF41. I don't see a positive result for CTS11440 for either Bettcher or Swanson. Burns hasn't done the Geno 2.0 thing.

Arthur is apparently not a member of the R-L21 Plus Project.

Where can I see his SNP results?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on April 07, 2013, 10:03:30 AM
Swanson has joined the DF41 project. I've put him in the "Pending group" until his DF41 result comes in. When it comes to GD in the project his closest match is with McConnell with a GD of 13 @ 67STR's.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on April 08, 2013, 11:18:56 AM
Swanson has joined the DF41 project. I've put him in the "Pending group" until his DF41 result comes in. When it comes to GD in the project his closest match is with McConnell with a GD of 13 @ 67STR's.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I asked Swanson and Bettcher to join and invited them to our Facebook group, as well. I guess I'll be red faced if something goes sideways with CTS2501, but I hope it doesn't.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on April 18, 2013, 07:30:52 AM
Swanson, kit 99735, and his closest 67-marker match (60/67), Burns, kit 63274, are both DF41+ as of this morning. Swanson already had a CTS2501+ from Geno 2.0.

FTDNA has to work some more y-dna from a second vial for Bettcher, who is also CTS2501+, so his DF41 result is still pending.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on April 18, 2013, 08:47:41 AM
Swanson and Burns both appear to belong to Mike's 1410V variety which also contains McConnell.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 18, 2013, 10:50:05 PM
I asked Swanson and Bettcher to join and invited them to our Facebook group, as well. I guess I'll be red faced if something goes sideways with CTS2501, but I hope it doesn't.
The way I look at it is either way they are pertinent to the project.
1) CTS2501 may be equivalent to DF41 or
2) CTS2501 may be an important subdivider of DF41 or
3) CTS2501 may be immediately upstream which perhaps means the project needs to be renamed but these people are all more closely related to each other than to the rest of DF13.

It's all good.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on April 20, 2013, 09:52:49 PM
I asked Swanson and Bettcher to join and invited them to our Facebook group, as well. I guess I'll be red faced if something goes sideways with CTS2501, but I hope it doesn't.
The way I look at it is either way they are pertinent to the project.
1) CTS2501 may be equivalent to DF41 or
2) CTS2501 may be an important subdivider of DF41 or
3) CTS2501 may be immediately upstream which perhaps means the project needs to be renamed but these people are all more closely related to each other than to the rest of DF13.

It's all good.

I agree. It means we get something out of Geno 2.0 that we did not expect.

I'm hoping the situation is your #1 above, which would help us pick up some more DF41+ guys. It already has done that with McConnell, Swanson, and Burns, actually.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on April 29, 2013, 12:21:49 PM
29705 (DF41+) got his GENO2 results: CTS2501+, CTS11440-, L247-


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on April 29, 2013, 07:55:42 PM
29705 (DF41+) got his GENO2 results: CTS2501+, CTS11440-, L247-


The evidence mounts.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 30, 2013, 12:01:30 AM
29705 (DF41+) got his GENO2 results: CTS2501+, CTS11440-, L247-

Do we know if, or do we have CTS1440 and L247 tests in progress for an L563+ person and an 744+ person?


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on April 30, 2013, 04:19:05 AM
29705 (DF41+) got his GENO2 results: CTS2501+, CTS11440-, L247-

Do we know if, or do we have CTS1440 and L247 tests in progress for an L563+ person and an 744+ person?

See notes on tree at http://rangebiome.org/ClanDF41.jpg which is a permalink to a tree that is periodically updated.

CTS2501: Not found in any other subclades of DF13 yet, and scattered from top to bottom in DF41. Looking more and more like a phylogenetic equivalent for DF41.

CTS11440: See positioning in tree and distribution of CTS2501+'s who have tested negative for CTS11440. Probably private or unstable and not worth testing for unless/until it crops up in another GENO2 result.

L247: Negative test results in all major clusters. Appears unstable or private, at least as far as DF41 is concerned.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on May 15, 2013, 02:28:46 AM
DF41 Progress:
Clan DF41 Tree updated http://rangebiome.org/ClanDF41.jpg .
142157 Dwyer is DF41+. Hall is no longer an orphan.
GENO2 for 240201 Walker is now 80% complete.
At least 2 L745 tests pending.
At least 2 CTS2501 tests pending.
At least 8 DF41 tests pending.
At least 11 upgrades to Y111 pending.

Some of these tests are at the kit owner’s volition, but the majority of the FTDNA tests are with some level of assistance from the general funds of the Stuart, Morrison-Q-DF41, R-L21 Plus, and R-DF41 & Subclades projects.

The R-DF41 & Subclades general fund is just about exhausted and could use some help, so please check your “toys” budget for what you might be able to spare. $39 will sponsor an SNP test, and $50 will provide partial “cost-share” (to be matched by $79 from the kit owner) for an upgrade from Y67 to Y111.

To donate: Go to http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF41/default.aspx , scroll down to “General Fund”, and follow the “click here” link. You can specify how you want your donation to be used in the “Note” box.

Thank You,
Larry Walker
240201 DF41+>1426C*
Cross-posted


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on May 15, 2013, 03:52:55 AM
Got my CTS2501+ result this morning.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on May 17, 2013, 07:54:58 AM
As posted elsewhere I'm also CTS2501+, Creer (L563+) is testing for CTS2501, once his result comes in it can be added to ISOGG tree as equivalent to DF41.

In other news Black who is a GD of 5 form me at 37STR's came back as DF41+, he's in process of waiting on an upgrade to 111 STR's. He's a GD of 6 from Salmon (same cluster as me) as well.

Obviously the root word in my surname in Irish is the colour Black (Dubh = Black).

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on May 17, 2013, 08:13:14 AM
As posted elsewhere I'm also CTS2501+, Creer (L563+) is testing for CTS2501, once his result comes in it can be added to ISOGG tree as equivalent to DF41.

In other news Black who is a GD of 5 form me at 37STR's came back as DF41+, he's in process of waiting on an upgrade to 111 STR's. He's a GD of 6 from Salmon (same cluster as me) as well.

Obviously the root word in my surname in Irish is the colour Black (Dubh = Black).

-Paul
(DF41+)

Awesome!

I didn't see Black's result this morning when I checked the computer, but it was early (around 0345), and I probably missed it due to not being fully awake.

It's a wonder I find my way to the train station each morning.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on May 18, 2013, 07:09:44 AM
I mentioned this to Paul already, but we just had a new member join the R-L21 Plus Project (Conn, kit 17609) who says he has a CTS2501+ result from Geno 2.0. Unfortunately, he hasn't transferred his results over to FTDNA yet, so they can't be seen. His mdka was born in County Armagh about 1830. Conn's haplotype is not like anything yet seen among DF41+ folks, with the following off-modal markers: 391=10, 385=10-15, 459=9-9, 447=24, 464=14-15-17-17, YCAII=19-19.

He only has 37 markers thus far. I've asked him to transfer his Geno 2.0 results over to FTDNA and to join the R-DF41 and Subclades Project. I'm hoping he'll do so soon.

You can see the entry (kit 17609) in the "Test Results Pending" category (on page 5) at the R-L21 Plus Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/default.aspx?vgroup=R-L21&section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/default.aspx?vgroup=R-L21&section=yresults)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on May 18, 2013, 04:07:49 PM
I mentioned this to Paul already, but we just had a new member join the R-L21 Plus Project (Conn, kit 17609) who says he has a CTS2501+ result from Geno 2.0. Unfortunately, he hasn't transferred his results over to FTDNA yet, so they can't be seen. His mdka was born in County Armagh about 1830. Conn's haplotype is not like anything yet seen among DF41+ folks, with the following off-modal markers: 391=10, 385=10-15, 459=9-9, 447=24, 464=14-15-17-17, YCAII=19-19.

He only has 37 markers thus far. I've asked him to transfer his Geno 2.0 results over to FTDNA and to join the R-DF41 and Subclades Project. I'm hoping he'll do so soon.

You can see the entry (kit 17609) in the "Test Results Pending" category (on page 5) at the R-L21 Plus Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/default.aspx?vgroup=R-L21&section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/default.aspx?vgroup=R-L21&section=yresults)

Make that two. There is also a new CTS2501+ entry in David's spreadsheet. N114320 Ryley. We need to find him and get him into the DF41 project.

Also, need to ask Conn to submit his raw GENO2 results to David. Instructions at http://daver.info/geno/results/ .


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Dubhthach on May 18, 2013, 05:21:38 PM
I mentioned this to Paul already, but we just had a new member join the R-L21 Plus Project (Conn, kit 17609) who says he has a CTS2501+ result from Geno 2.0. Unfortunately, he hasn't transferred his results over to FTDNA yet, so they can't be seen. His mdka was born in County Armagh about 1830. Conn's haplotype is not like anything yet seen among DF41+ folks, with the following off-modal markers: 391=10, 385=10-15, 459=9-9, 447=24, 464=14-15-17-17, YCAII=19-19.

He only has 37 markers thus far. I've asked him to transfer his Geno 2.0 results over to FTDNA and to join the R-DF41 and Subclades Project. I'm hoping he'll do so soon.

You can see the entry (kit 17609) in the "Test Results Pending" category (on page 5) at the R-L21 Plus Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/default.aspx?vgroup=R-L21&section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/default.aspx?vgroup=R-L21&section=yresults)

Make that two. There is also a new CTS2501+ entry in David's spreadsheet. N114320 Ryley. We need to find him and get him into the DF41 project.

Also, need to ask Conn to submit his raw GENO2 results to David. Instructions at http://daver.info/geno/results/ .

Ryley is already in the project, his results can be seen on SNP page. He's the son of our other Ryley who is managing the kit. I suggested to him that he submit it to David.

I've sent an email to Conn proposing the project fund a DF41 test, when he's come back to me I'll suggest that he sends his Geno 2.0 kit to David.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on May 19, 2013, 08:35:01 AM
Conn, kit 17609, has transferred his Geno 2.0 results over to FTDNA and is clearly CTS2501+.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: Larry Walker on June 05, 2013, 05:46:06 PM
Brokerage - Y full sequence pledges

This database is intended to serve as a self-managing brokerage between those
who are willing to contribute towards another DF41+ person being able to order a
Full Genomes Inc. test (Y full sequence), and those who need assistance in
financing such a test. If you would be willing to donate, then enter the pledged
amount(s) in the appropriate columns (you can change or delete the entries at
any time). If you need help and there are adequate pledges listed to fill your
needs, then contact the appropriate donors directly. You must work out any
financial details among yourselves as this is an honor-system service and nobody
assumes any responsibility for anything.

Access at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ClanDF41/database

You must be a member of the Clan DF41 Yahoo group. If not already a member, join
at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ClanDF41/

(cross-posted)


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on June 08, 2013, 07:42:34 AM
Conn, kit 17609, has transferred his Geno 2.0 results over to FTDNA and is clearly CTS2501+.

Loveland, kit 191733, got his DF41+ result this morning. He is a 64/67 match for our Manxman, Moore, so things are looking good for the cluster Mike has christened 41-9919. Loveland has some other close matches at 67 markers. Maybe they can be persuaded to test for DF41.

I quoted the message above because Conn's CTS2501+ result led us to the discovery of this cluster, or at least helped identify it as DF41+.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on June 18, 2013, 04:02:36 AM
Conn, kit 17609, who was already CTS2501+, and Moore, kit 193754, from the Isle of Man, both got their DF41+ results this morning. Whoopee! We don't usually get two in one morning! They're both in the 41-9919 cluster.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on August 02, 2013, 06:38:45 AM
Edmonds (Stevens), kit 212967, and Browning, kit N71242, both got their DF41+ results this morning.

Back on July 6th, Bettcher, kit B2895, and O'Hare, kit 255048, got their DF41+ results. Somehow I neglected to post that here.


Title: Re: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
Post by: rms2 on August 04, 2013, 07:52:23 AM
Awhile back I emailed several of Loveland's closest matches and asked them to test for DF41. Only one of them (61/67) responded. He ordered the test and yesterday got his DF41+ result. The surname is Morrison but no relation to our other Morrisons. I've asked him to join both the DF41 Project and the L21 Project. Hopefully, he will.