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Title: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: rms2 on April 13, 2012, 07:37:11 AM
I was amazed (and am still amazed) by the surprisingly high frequency of L21 found in the Basque sample population of 558 men in the recent Begoña Martinez-Cruz et al (2012) study.


http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/12/molbev.mss091.abstract (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/12/molbev.mss091.abstract)

The overall frequency was just over 16%. In four sample locations, the frequency exceeded 20%. In one of those, it was in excess of 27%. That is significant.

It would be nice if we had the haplotypes, so we could get a variance calculation.

The following quote from JeanL sums the findings up very nicely.



There seems to be an East-West cline for R-L21 on the French Basque provinces based on the data from Martinez-Cruz. The same thing applies to R-M153, but in the opposite direction.
 
Lapurdi/Nafarroa Beherea ZMX (n=44) Table S4

R-L21+     12/44 or 27.27%

Nafarroa Beherea NLA (n=66) Table S4

 R-L21+     9/66 or 13.63%

Zuberoa SOU (n=53) Table S4

R-L21+     3/53 or 5.67%

Roncal, Nafarroa  RON (n=53) Table S4

 R-L21+    11/53 or 20.75%

Central/Western Nafarroa  NCO (n=60) Table S4

 R-L21+     9/60 or 15%

North/Western Nafarroa  NNO (n=51) Table S4

 R-L21+     5/60 8.33%

Guipuscoa GUI (n=47) Table S4

 R-L21+     9/47 or 19.15%

Southwestern Guipuscoa GSO (n=57) Table S4

 R-L21+     13/57 or 22.81%

Alava, ALA (n=51) Table S4

 R-L21+     11/51 or 21.57%

Bizkaia BBA (n=57) Table S4

 R-L21+     7/57 or 12.28%

Western Bizkaia BOC(n=19) Table S4

R-L21+     2/19 or 10.53%

Maybe there is a link between R-L21 and the Atlantic Bronze Age after all.





Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: Jean M on April 13, 2012, 07:58:15 AM
Certainly is important. I'm inclined to feel that it indicates considerable mixing between Aquitani and their Celtic speaking neighbours in Gaul in the pre-Roman period. The linguistic evidence indicates that Aquitanian was an ancestral form of Euskara. In other words the ancestors of the Basques lived in SW France and the Pyrenees. 


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: IALEM on April 13, 2012, 08:27:43 AM
I was the first Basque to test L21+, back then I posted to the incredulity of many that there will be many more positives in the Basque Country because I could trace my male line back to the 14th century so any recent migration could be discarded (the ifrst thing I was told when I posted my result in the DNA forum is that I should have some Irish ancestry).
When I realised that L21+ was much higher among Basques than neighbouring Spanish populations but similar to that of Gascony I pointed that it was another argument in pro of the late Vaconization theory. However I wouldn´t point to mixing with their Celtic speaking neighbours in Gaul in the pre-Roman period since the Celtic speaking Western Iberia doesn´t show a high level og L21+


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: Jean M on April 13, 2012, 08:36:00 AM
@ Ialem - yes we must account for the east-west cline in Basque L21. Perhaps I should have said that the greater level of it in the east reflects the continuing contact (and opportunities for mixing) in France with Gaulish Celts for many centuries since the post-Roman period.  

I agree that the L21 in Basques supports the late Vasconization of the Spanish Basque Country theory.

 


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: rms2 on April 13, 2012, 08:43:25 PM
I wrote Maciamo Hay of Eupedia last night and made him aware of the Begoña Martinez-Cruz study and asked him to update his L21 map. I just checked the Eupedia y-dna forum and found that he started a thread on the subject this morning and has in fact updated his map:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27452-Deep-Y-DNA-subclades-tested-in-Northern-Spain-amp-Gascony-%28including-R1b-subclades%29 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27452-Deep-Y-DNA-subclades-tested-in-Northern-Spain-amp-Gascony-%28including-R1b-subclades%29)

I don't post at Eupedia anymore because the R1a rah-rahs there drove me nuts, but Maciamo is a good guy, and his maps are nice.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: rms2 on April 13, 2012, 08:53:32 PM
I wrote Maciamo Hay of Eupedia last night and made him aware of the Begoña Martinez-Cruz study and asked him to update his L21 map. I just checked the Eupedia y-dna forum and found that he started a thread on the subject this morning and has in fact updated his map:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27452-Deep-Y-DNA-subclades-tested-in-Northern-Spain-amp-Gascony-%28including-R1b-subclades%29 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27452-Deep-Y-DNA-subclades-tested-in-Northern-Spain-amp-Gascony-%28including-R1b-subclades%29)

I don't post at Eupedia anymore because the R1a rah-rahs there drove me nuts, but Maciamo is a good guy, and his maps are nice.

Re that map, I get the feeling Maciamo has L21 kind of compartmentalized in the Basque country. I'm betting the area of high L21 frequency probably is more extensive and flows up into western France. In other words, that 10-15% shading should probably run all the way down western France to connect up with the shading in the Basque country. How far east it should go is another matter. If I get the chance this weekend, I'll recheck Busby to see if there is any reason to think that might not be true.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 14, 2012, 08:54:25 AM
By the way, the Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age migrations across the Pyrenees were distinct in their funerary practices, with Tumulus being predominant in the west and cremation (Urnfields) in the east.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: rms2 on April 14, 2012, 12:07:51 PM
By the way, the Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age migrations across the Pyrenees were distinct in their funerary practices, with Tumulus being predominant in the west and cremation (Urnfields) in the east.

That is interesting.

Those Urnfield folk tick me off, honestly - burning their dead! What were they thinking of?

Didn't they know we would want to find out about their dna someday? ;-)


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: Heber on April 16, 2012, 02:26:11 PM
I wrote Maciamo Hay of Eupedia last night and made him aware of the Begoña Martinez-Cruz study and asked him to update his L21 map. I just checked the Eupedia y-dna forum and found that he started a thread on the subject this morning and has in fact updated his map:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27452-Deep-Y-DNA-subclades-tested-in-Northern-Spain-amp-Gascony-%28including-R1b-subclades%29 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27452-Deep-Y-DNA-subclades-tested-in-Northern-Spain-amp-Gascony-%28including-R1b-subclades%29)

I don't post at Eupedia anymore because the R1a rah-rahs there drove me nuts, but Maciamo is a good guy, and his maps are nice.

Re that map, I get the feeling Maciamo has L21 kind of compartmentalized in the Basque country. I'm betting the area of high L21 frequency probably is more extensive and flows up into western France. In other words, that 10-15% shading should probably run all the way down western France to connect up with the shading in the Basque country. How far east it should go is another matter. If I get the chance this weekend, I'll recheck Busby to see if there is any reason to think that might not be true.

If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?

If anyone has any doubts about the vibrancy of Celtic traditions in these regions, I would recommend a visit to the "Festival Interceltique" of Lorient, a type of Celtic Woodstock.

"THE PIPERS are primed, the kilts and dancing shoes are packed, the hotels are filling and the stages are just about built. On Friday, the Breton port town of Lorient will transform itself once again into the heaving, thumping capital of pan-Celtic partying. On their way to the 40th instalment of the Inter-Celtic festival are 4,500 artists and 650,000 spectators from Ireland, Scotland, Wales, France, Spain and diasporic outposts around the world, multiplying the town’s population tenfold and burnishing the reputation of an event that proudly lays claim to being the biggest of its kind."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2010/0804/1224276141895.html

http://www.festival-interceltique.com/

http://www.festival-interceltique.com/festival/nations-celtes.cfm



Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 16, 2012, 07:03:04 PM
If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?
Is L21 15% in Northern Iberia or 15% just among the Basque groups?
If it is just among the Basque groups, why do we think it extends through Galicia and down western Iberia all the way to Cadiz?


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on April 16, 2012, 07:37:02 PM
If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?

I know that many descendants of Acadian pioneers are L21, and whose ancestors were from the Poitou-Charentes region of France.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on April 17, 2012, 05:09:47 PM

It would be nice if we had the haplotypes, so we could get a variance calculation.


Yes, is there any way that the authors could make the STRs available?  I would be particularly interested in those of SRY2627 samples in France.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: rms2 on April 17, 2012, 06:58:05 PM

It would be nice if we had the haplotypes, so we could get a variance calculation.


Yes, is there any way that the authors could make the STRs available?  I would be particularly interested in those of SRY2627 samples in France.

They may be in the study, but it's one of those pay-to-read studies, so I haven't read the whole thing.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 17, 2012, 07:43:38 PM
If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?
Is L21 15% in Northern Iberia or 15% just among the Basque groups?
If it is just among the Basque groups, why do we think it extends through Galicia and down western Iberia all the way to Cadiz?


I thought the finding was that it was (in Spanish terms) only high in the Pyrenees area and fell of to very little even when you moved along the north coast to next door Cantabria.  Myres actually found Cantabria to be the highest L21 area he tested in Iberia (he did not test the Pyrenean areas) and the rest of Iberia to be really lacking in it.  All this adds up to the apparent picture that L21 is very rare in Iberia except in the Pyrenees next to France.  However, I would admit that this needs confirmed and I have never seen similar sampling of interesting places like Asturias and Galicia. 

I think modern national boundaries are confusing this.  I see the L21-rich area in the Spanish Pyrenees simply a continuity of this on the French side, and basically should be seen as the fringe of the raised L21 areas in Atlantic and Pyrenean France rather than as the eastern fringe of Spain.  If you look at the Pyrenees more as the edge of France.Gaul then L21 rising in the mountains of the west and the French Atlantic coasts is like an echo of what we see in the isles.  L21 seems to survive best a little off the beaten track of the main path of movements form the east.  So, I do get the feeling that in some areas it was 'first in' of the P312 clades and was diluted from the east.  


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: rms2 on April 17, 2012, 07:55:18 PM
Alan,

Doesn't that last bit you wrote seem to fit rather well with Cunliffe's old idea of the Atlantic Bronze Age trading and cultural network and, by extension, the Maritime Bell Beaker folk (if there were such people and MBB wasn't just pots, arrowheads and wristguards)?

I get the feeling a more thorough study of Spain would show a much smoother transition in L21 frequency from NW Spain into western France.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 17, 2012, 08:16:30 PM
Alan,

Doesn't that last bit you wrote seem to fit rather well with Cunliffe's old idea of the Atlantic Bronze Age trading and cultural network and, by extension, the Maritime Bell Beaker folk (if there were such people and MBB wasn't just pots, arrowheads and wristguards)?

I get the feeling a more thorough study of Spain would show a much smoother transition in L21 frequency from NW Spain into western France.

Rich

One thing I notice is that people tend to talk about Maritime Beakers and the Atlantic Bronze Age as if they were part of a continuoum.  However, Maritime beakers were likely invented around 2700BC and were done a few 100 years later while the Atlantic Bronze age commenced about 1300BC.  They were two different phases with a gap of at least 1000 years between.  In between  (in that gap) Atlantic Iberia was more closely connected to the west Med. groups as far as Italy.  So, they are very distinct phases.

As for L21 in Iberia, I think its Pyrenean concentration makes it a poor match for the Atlantic Bronze Age which was focussed on western Iberia.  It is a reasonably good match for the French and isles part of the network but so far (and I realise this needs confirmed) it is not a good match in Iberia.  I was somewhat amazed by the huge drop-off immediately west of the Basque area along the north coast in Cantabria, especially as Myres found the latter to be the peak of the (admittedly patchy) sampling of Iberia.  I recall Myres found a slight increase in L21 in Portugal too but it was well behind Cantabria (Santander).


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: razyn on April 17, 2012, 09:18:38 PM
Myres actually found Cantabria to be the highest L21 area he tested in Iberia (he did not test the Pyrenean areas) and the rest of Iberia to be really lacking in it.

Isn't Natalie M. Myres a woman?  I also see this name as "Myers" pretty regularly, and even Google doesn't seem all that sure.  This is an actual question, although I'll be able to sleep without an answer to it.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: rms2 on April 18, 2012, 07:39:48 AM
Alan,

Doesn't that last bit you wrote seem to fit rather well with Cunliffe's old idea of the Atlantic Bronze Age trading and cultural network and, by extension, the Maritime Bell Beaker folk (if there were such people and MBB wasn't just pots, arrowheads and wristguards)?

I get the feeling a more thorough study of Spain would show a much smoother transition in L21 frequency from NW Spain into western France.

Rich

One thing I notice is that people tend to talk about Maritime Beakers and the Atlantic Bronze Age as if they were part of a continuoum.  However, Maritime beakers were likely invented around 2700BC and were done a few 100 years later while the Atlantic Bronze age commenced about 1300BC.  They were two different phases with a gap of at least 1000 years between.  In between  (in that gap) Atlantic Iberia was more closely connected to the west Med. groups as far as Italy.  So, they are very distinct phases.

They were distinct phases, but human life did not cease in that area in between them. Certainly trade and other forms of interaction were going on in the meantime, activities that simply peaked in intensity during the Atlantic Bronze Age and did not just suddenly spring forth full-blown without precedent.

I don't want to sound too assertive about this stuff, though. I don't really know.

As for L21 in Iberia, I think its Pyrenean concentration makes it a poor match for the Atlantic Bronze Age which was focussed on western Iberia.  It is a reasonably good match for the French and isles part of the network but so far (and I realise this needs confirmed) it is not a good match in Iberia.  I was somewhat amazed by the huge drop-off immediately west of the Basque area along the north coast in Cantabria, especially as Myres found the latter to be the peak of the (admittedly patchy) sampling of Iberia.  I recall Myres found a slight increase in L21 in Portugal too but it was well behind Cantabria (Santander).

That may be right, but I need to take a look back at Myres and Busby. As I recall, there was something funny about Myres' Spanish sampling. Was it small sample sizes? I'm not sure.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on April 18, 2012, 01:25:38 PM

It would be nice if we had the haplotypes, so we could get a variance calculation.


Yes, is there any way that the authors could make the STRs available?  I would be particularly interested in those of SRY2627 samples in France.

They may be in the study, but it's one of those pay-to-read studies, so I haven't read the whole thing.

Hmm, well I actually have subscriber access to this journal, but the article doesn't seem to be published there yet!



Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: GoldenHind on April 18, 2012, 01:49:20 PM
Myres actually found Cantabria to be the highest L21 area he tested in Iberia (he did not test the Pyrenean areas) and the rest of Iberia to be really lacking in it.

Isn't Natalie M. Myres a woman?  I also see this name as "Myers" pretty regularly, and even Google doesn't seem all that sure.  This is an actual question, although I'll be able to sleep without an answer to it.

Yes, she is a woman, and Myres is the correct, though unusual spelling. It's very easy to misspell it as Myers.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: Heber on April 18, 2012, 01:53:38 PM
If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?
Is L21 15% in Northern Iberia or 15% just among the Basque groups?
If it is just among the Basque groups, why do we think it extends through Galicia and down western Iberia all the way to Cadiz?


Mike,
Galacia is the epicentre of Celtic language and culture in Iberia.
Tartessos is the supposed origin point of Celtic language according to Cunliffe and Koch. Celtic from the West. Neither location was tested by Myres for L21. I think it would be useful to have a new study which includes all the Celtic homelands including Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, Morbihan, Galecia and Tartessos. I would also include other interesting origin points such as Anatolia, Balkens, Thessaly.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 18, 2012, 02:45:01 PM
If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?
Is L21 15% in Northern Iberia or 15% just among the Basque groups?
If it is just among the Basque groups, why do we think it extends through Galicia and down western Iberia all the way to Cadiz?


Mike,
Galacia is the epicentre of Celtic language and culture in Iberia.
Tartessos is the supposed origin point of Celtic language according to Cunliffe and Koch. Celtic from the West. Neither location was tested by Myres for L21. I think it would be useful to have a new study which includes all the Celtic homelands including Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, Morbihan, Galecia and Tartessos. I would also include other interesting origin points such as Anatolia, Balkens, Thessaly.

Okay.. what I was checking was any genetic evidence of L21 in along western Iberia, which it sounds like there isn't any (at least yet.)

I don't think we can assume that Celtic in western Iberia was L21.  L21 so far, seems most prominent in Basque country and they don't appear to have spoken Celtic (as least as far as we know.)


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 18, 2012, 03:26:45 PM
If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?
Is L21 15% in Northern Iberia or 15% just among the Basque groups?
If it is just among the Basque groups, why do we think it extends through Galicia and down western Iberia all the way to Cadiz?


Mike,
Galacia is the epicentre of Celtic language and culture in Iberia.
Tartessos is the supposed origin point of Celtic language according to Cunliffe and Koch. Celtic from the West. Neither location was tested by Myres for L21. I think it would be useful to have a new study which includes all the Celtic homelands including Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, Morbihan, Galecia and Tartessos. I would also include other interesting origin points such as Anatolia, Balkens, Thessaly.

Okay.. what I was checking was any genetic evidence of L21 in along western Iberia, which it sounds like there isn't any (at least yet.)

I don't think we can assume that Celtic in western Iberia was L21.  L21 so far, seems most prominent in Basque country and they don't appear to have spoken Celtic (as least as far as we know.)

From what I recall, there are Celtic place names in the western Iberian Basque Country and there is a lack of Basque place names there as well. Can someone confirm?


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: Heber on April 18, 2012, 04:35:57 PM
Moving from North West Iberia to North East.

Galicia
"The Gallaeci were originally a Celtic people who have occupied for centuries the territory of modern Galicia and northern Portugal, were limited to the south with the Lusitanians and to the east with the Astures. In ethnic terms, they were the firsts Galicians (word derived from Gallaeci). The Gallaecian habitat was based in fortified villages that receive the name of Castrus (hillforts), ranging its size from small villages with less than a hectare (more common in the north), and great hillforts with more than 10 hectares, named "Oppida" or "Citânia", being this last type, more common in the southern half of the traditional settlement."
Galicia was not tested by Myres.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Galicia

Asturias
"In the Mesolithic period, a native culture developed, that of the Asturiense, and later, with the introduction of the Bronze Age, megaliths and tumuli were constructed. In the Iron Age, the territory came under the cultural influence of the Celts; the local Celtic peoples, known as the Astures, were composed of tribes such as the Luggones, the Pesicos, and others, who populated the entire area with castros (fortified hill-towns). Today the Astur Celtic influence persists in place names, such as those of rivers and mountains."
Asturias was not tested by Myres.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asturias

Cantabria
"It is generally accepted that the root cant- comes from Celtic for "rock" or "stone", while -abr was a common suffix used in Celtic regions. Thus, "Cantabrian" could mean "people who live in the rocks" or highlanders, a reference to the steep and mountainous territory of Cantabria."
"A detailed analysis of place-names in ancient Cantabria shows a strong Celtic element along with an almost equally strong "Para-Celtic" element (both Indo-European) and thus disproves the idea of a substantial pre-Indo-European or Basque presence in the region.
Cantabria was tested by Myres and had one of the highest percentage of L21 in Iberia.
http://m.box.com/view_shared/hxp8ie25yv
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabri

Basque Country
"In the Iron Age an Indo-European people, probably Celtic, settled on territories adjacent to the Basque region and began to exert influence. Bearers of the late Urnfield culture followed the Ebro upstream as far as the southern fringes of the Basque Country, leading to the incorporation of the Hallstatt culture."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Basque_people

In a recent study Begona Martinez-Cruz et al study, 558 Basque men sampled. The overall frequency of L21 was 16.3%. In four sample locations it was in excess of 20%. In one sample location it was 27%.

Given the high percentage of L21 in the Basque Country and Cantabria, it is reasonable to expect a high percentage of L21 in the adjoining regions of Galicia and Asturias which have a stronger Celtic culture and language heritage.





Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 18, 2012, 06:52:32 PM
If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?
Is L21 15% in Northern Iberia or 15% just among the Basque groups?
If it is just among the Basque groups, why do we think it extends through Galicia and down western Iberia all the way to Cadiz?


Mike,
Galacia is the epicentre of Celtic language and culture in Iberia.
Tartessos is the supposed origin point of Celtic language according to Cunliffe and Koch. Celtic from the West. Neither location was tested by Myres for L21. I think it would be useful to have a new study which includes all the Celtic homelands including Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, Morbihan, Galecia and Tartessos. I would also include other interesting origin points such as Anatolia, Balkens, Thessaly.


The idea that Galicia and to a lesser degrees Asturias just to the east are particularly Celtic is a modern nationalistic 'Celtic fringe' concept.  It was no more Celtic than anywhere else in non-Med. Iberia.  In fact, the Celti-Iberian culture in the purest sense is an east-central thing in Spain.  The Celticity of Atlantic Iberia is much more uncertain.  Lusitanian and similar dialects (more Italic-like than Celtic) are attested all over Atlantic Iberia as well as Celtic.   What Galicia was however is a very interesting nodal point on the trade routes of the Atlantic seaways..


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 18, 2012, 06:57:53 PM
If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?
Is L21 15% in Northern Iberia or 15% just among the Basque groups?
If it is just among the Basque groups, why do we think it extends through Galicia and down western Iberia all the way to Cadiz?


Mike,
Galacia is the epicentre of Celtic language and culture in Iberia.
Tartessos is the supposed origin point of Celtic language according to Cunliffe and Koch. Celtic from the West. Neither location was tested by Myres for L21. I think it would be useful to have a new study which includes all the Celtic homelands including Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, Morbihan, Galecia and Tartessos. I would also include other interesting origin points such as Anatolia, Balkens, Thessaly.

Okay.. what I was checking was any genetic evidence of L21 in along western Iberia, which it sounds like there isn't any (at least yet.)

I don't think we can assume that Celtic in western Iberia was L21.  L21 so far, seems most prominent in Basque country and they don't appear to have spoken Celtic (as least as far as we know.)

From what I recall, there are Celtic place names in the western Iberian Basque Country and there is a lack of Basque place names there as well. Can someone confirm?

I recall reading that rivernames (usually the oldest strata in any area) are IE in the Basque areas, suggesting they were late arrivals. 


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: IALEM on April 19, 2012, 05:15:22 AM
If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?
Is L21 15% in Northern Iberia or 15% just among the Basque groups?
If it is just among the Basque groups, why do we think it extends through Galicia and down western Iberia all the way to Cadiz?


Mike,
Galacia is the epicentre of Celtic language and culture in Iberia.
Tartessos is the supposed origin point of Celtic language according to Cunliffe and Koch. Celtic from the West. Neither location was tested by Myres for L21. I think it would be useful to have a new study which includes all the Celtic homelands including Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, Morbihan, Galecia and Tartessos. I would also include other interesting origin points such as Anatolia, Balkens, Thessaly.

Okay.. what I was checking was any genetic evidence of L21 in along western Iberia, which it sounds like there isn't any (at least yet.)

I don't think we can assume that Celtic in western Iberia was L21.  L21 so far, seems most prominent in Basque country and they don't appear to have spoken Celtic (as least as far as we know.)

From what I recall, there are Celtic place names in the western Iberian Basque Country and there is a lack of Basque place names there as well. Can someone confirm?

I recall reading that rivernames (usually the oldest strata in any area) are IE in the Basque areas, suggesting they were late arrivals. 
They are in the S and SW of the present Basque Country, and it lends support to the late Vasconization theory of that area, that I particularly think is clearly correct.
However L-21 is present also in the other regions of the Basque Country that don´t have that Celtic toponimic substratum,. IMO L-21 moved with Basques when they arrived to the previously Celtic region.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: rms2 on April 19, 2012, 07:02:18 AM
If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?
Is L21 15% in Northern Iberia or 15% just among the Basque groups?
If it is just among the Basque groups, why do we think it extends through Galicia and down western Iberia all the way to Cadiz?


Mike,
Galacia is the epicentre of Celtic language and culture in Iberia.
Tartessos is the supposed origin point of Celtic language according to Cunliffe and Koch. Celtic from the West. Neither location was tested by Myres for L21. I think it would be useful to have a new study which includes all the Celtic homelands including Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, Morbihan, Galecia and Tartessos. I would also include other interesting origin points such as Anatolia, Balkens, Thessaly.

Okay.. what I was checking was any genetic evidence of L21 in along western Iberia, which it sounds like there isn't any (at least yet.)

I don't think we can assume that Celtic in western Iberia was L21.  L21 so far, seems most prominent in Basque country and they don't appear to have spoken Celtic (as least as far as we know.)

From what I recall, there are Celtic place names in the western Iberian Basque Country and there is a lack of Basque place names there as well. Can someone confirm?

I recall reading that rivernames (usually the oldest strata in any area) are IE in the Basque areas, suggesting they were late arrivals. 
They are in the S and SW of the present Basque Country, and it lends support to the late Vasconization theory of that area, that I particularly think is clearly correct.
However L-21 is present also in the other regions of the Basque Country that don´t have that Celtic toponimic substratum,. IMO L-21 moved with Basques when they arrived to the previously Celtic region.


I am not trying to argue with you in what follows; I just want to get your sense of things.

It is pretty clear that in NW Europe L21 has a fairly close historical association with Celtic-speaking peoples, a closer association than it does with the Basques, although, obviously, we know now it has a connection to the Basques, as well.

What do you think happened? Was there once a much wider Vasconic-speaking region that extended up into NW France and the British Isles that later became Celtic via cultural and trade contacts? Or was L21 introduced into the Vasconic population via contacts with Celts?

I lean toward the latter explanation, but I am open to either or even to some third, fourth or subsequent explanation: whatever is right.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: OConnor on April 19, 2012, 07:39:44 AM
I suspect L21 has been layered in N/W Europe. Arriving in some places mutiple times.

Sorting it out must be nothing short of a nightmare.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 19, 2012, 09:05:43 AM
I suspect L21 has been layered in N/W Europe. Arriving in some places mutiple times.

Sorting it out must be nothing short of a nightmare.

Yes, we have to recognize that there is a lot of time in prehistory when we really don't know that well what happened.... at least in terms of who was who?

I generally like the concept of accepting the simplest, most direct explanations, which is essentially "Occam's razor."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

However, there is no simple, one answer that fits.  Even though people look at Ireland Y-DNA wise and see it as almost a monolith of L21, if you look at the history and the prehistory, there were myriad of expansions, migrations, declines, etc. that involved the continent and Scandinavia. 

The days of single dimensional analysis of L21, U106, U152 and P312* are over.  Those are just snapshot pictures when in reality we have multi-cinema group of videos running full time all the time.  Oh yes, all of the shows are real multi-media with full color, surround sound and 3D.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: IALEM on April 19, 2012, 10:15:40 AM



What do you think happened? Was there once a much wider Vasconic-speaking region that extended up into NW France and the British Isles that later became Celtic via cultural and trade contacts? Or was L21 introduced into the Vasconic population via contacts with Celts?

I lean toward the latter explanation, but I am open to either or even to some third, fourth or subsequent explanation: whatever is right.
There is very little evidence for Vasconic, only indirect inference. Aquitanian and Iberian dialects are related so they descend from a common language that probably extended beyond those borders, how far? no idea. There were for sure othe pre IE languages from different families in Western Europe that disapeared without leaving trace.
I think the explanation about L-21 among Basques is related to chronology, if L-21 is so late as some suggest then I would say your explanation is probably the right one.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 27, 2012, 05:21:37 PM
As I have posted before, in terms of Iberia it seems that the border area with France is much higher in L21 and hence more similar to Ireland and Atlantic Britain than other parts of Iberia appear to be.  I only recently noticed that Gerald of Wales As I have posted before, in terms of Iberia it seems that the border area with France is much higher in L21 and hence more similar to Ireland and Atlantic Britain than other parts of Iberia appear to be.  I only recently noticed that Gerald of Wales who wrote the first detailed outsiders account of Ireland recounts the book of invasions traditions but interestingly he locates the link with the Irish in the Basque area on the Spanish-French border rather than with Galicia.  He notes that the Irish were Vascones who had tried to settle Britain but had been encourage to go and settled Ireland.  He also mentions that they came from Bayonne on the French-Spanish border.  

http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/topography_ireland.pdf


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: rms2 on April 27, 2012, 07:47:01 PM
That is curious.

I'm not sure what to make of it, but it is interesting.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: jerome72 on April 28, 2012, 01:16:57 AM
In 2007, a Celtic site is excavated in Aquitaine.
 It is one of the biggest of Europe

http://www.inrap.fr/archeologie-preventive/Decouvrir/Audiovisuels/Reportages_videos/p-2172-Un_village_gaulois_au_nord_de_l_Aquitaine.htm

 I try to translate what the archaeologist Alain Duval said in this video:

 This is one of the largest site of Celtic archeology in Europe. This is very surprising, because we are in Aquitaine and Aquitaine, they are not Celts. But here, in this case, it was one of the greatest Celtic site, with absolutely characteristics  objects. If we would have discovered this site in Hungary or Bohemia, we would not have been surprised


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: razyn on April 28, 2012, 02:19:31 AM
And here it is described in English, which I found helpful:

http://www.inrap.fr/preventive-archaeology/Events/Last-discoveries/p-2211-lg1-A-Gallic-village-in-northern-Aquitaine.htm


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: IALEM on April 28, 2012, 02:38:55 AM
Well, the site is located north of the Garonne and in the area of 3 well known Gallic tribes, the Bituriges, the Pétrucores and the Nitiobroges, so it is not that surporising, except for the size of the site.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: Heber on April 28, 2012, 03:02:01 AM
As I have posted before, in terms of Iberia it seems that the border area with France is much higher in L21 and hence more similar to Ireland and Atlantic Britain than other parts of Iberia appear to be.  I only recently noticed that Gerald of Wales As I have posted before, in terms of Iberia it seems that the border area with France is much higher in L21 and hence more similar to Ireland and Atlantic Britain than other parts of Iberia appear to be.  I only recently noticed that Gerald of Wales who wrote the first detailed outsiders account of Ireland recounts the book of invasions traditions but interestingly he locates the link with the Irish in the Basque area on the Spanish-French border rather than with Galicia.  He notes that the Irish were Vascones who had tried to settle Britain but had been encourage to go and settled Ireland.  He also mentions that they came from Bayonne on the French-Spanish border.  

http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/topography_ireland.pdf


Alan,
We all know that Gerald of Wales, cousin of Henri II, and related to the Norman Invaders,  writings were propaganda used to justify the Cambro Norman invasion of Ireland. As described in footnotes 151, 152 and 153 Henry II, through his marriage with Eleanor of Aquitaine, acquired the French Basque lands. This chapter is taken from Geoffrey of Monmouth and the Title, Chapte IX Of the Triple and new claim should give us a hint. The Basclenes are evidently The Basques, But this colony does not appear to be admitted by the Irish writers.
What is supported by the vast Corpus of Irish writings is the accounts In Chapter VI and VII, the Invasions of Heber and Herimon.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: ironroad41 on April 28, 2012, 09:04:36 AM
I suspect L21 has been layered in N/W Europe. Arriving in some places mutiple times.

Sorting it out must be nothing short of a nightmare.

Yes, we have to recognize that there is a lot of time in prehistory when we really don't know that well what happened.... at least in terms of who was who?

I generally like the concept of accepting the simplest, most direct explanations, which is essentially "Occam's razor."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

However, there is no simple, one answer that fits.  Even though people look at Ireland Y-DNA wise and see it as almost a monolith of L21, if you look at the history and the prehistory, there were myriad of expansions, migrations, declines, etc. that involved the continent and Scandinavia. 

The days of single dimensional analysis of L21, U106, U152 and P312* are over.  Those are just snapshot pictures when in reality we have multi-cinema group of videos running full time all the time.  Oh yes, all of the shows are real multi-media with full color, surround sound and 3D.

I agree with your comments and suggest that, as sentient beings, the movements were in response to Climate changes, food supply changes, trade, etc.   One question I would pose is was there a land bridge across the straits of Gibraltar and possibly from the area of Tripoli to Italy?  If so when was it erased. The existence of these land bridges would have facilitated north - south traffic between Europe and Africa and help us to explain some the population distributions we observe?


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 28, 2012, 09:08:24 AM
As I have posted before, in terms of Iberia it seems that the border area with France is much higher in L21 and hence more similar to Ireland and Atlantic Britain than other parts of Iberia appear to be.  I only recently noticed that Gerald of Wales As I have posted before, in terms of Iberia it seems that the border area with France is much higher in L21 and hence more similar to Ireland and Atlantic Britain than other parts of Iberia appear to be.  I only recently noticed that Gerald of Wales who wrote the first detailed outsiders account of Ireland recounts the book of invasions traditions but interestingly he locates the link with the Irish in the Basque area on the Spanish-French border rather than with Galicia.  He notes that the Irish were Vascones who had tried to settle Britain but had been encourage to go and settled Ireland.  He also mentions that they came from Bayonne on the French-Spanish border.  

http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/topography_ireland.pdf


Alan,
We all know that Gerald of Wales, cousin of Henri II, and related to the Norman Invaders,  writings were propaganda used to justify the Cambro Norman invasion of Ireland. As described in footnotes 151, 152 and 153 Henry II, through his marriage with Eleanor of Aquitaine, acquired the French Basque lands. This chapter is taken from Geoffrey of Monmouth and the Title, Chapte IX Of the Triple and new claim should give us a hint. The Basclenes are evidently The Basques, But this colony does not appear to be admitted by the Irish writers.
What is supported by the vast Corpus of Irish writings is the accounts In Chapter VI and VII, the Invasions of Heber and Herimon.

Oh I am well aware of that background to Gerald of Wales and it needs read with full awareness of the motives and propoganda issue and part of that is that England ruled Aquitaine.  In fact the section that mentions the Basques is up front about being a plea to claim Anglo-Norman authority over the Irish.  However, as long as one is very aware of that then its still of interest in its incidental detail.  

Its just an interesting and perhaps politically motivated twist puts on the Milesian/Book of Invasion myth but the latter is a pack of fabrication anyway based on classical and even biblican sources put together by monks and as such is not really original Irish tradition of origins.  It clearly did later become part of traditions spread by the learned class but no credible Celtic scholars see it as genuine native tradition on the whole except a small element of it.  The amount of credibility it is given on the internet is madness in my opinion, no better (and indeed very similar) to the idea that Brutus founded the Britain.  People are wasting their time trying to get much out of the Book of Invasions type traditions.  That is not to say that there could not have been links with Iberia but the book of invasions is just Medieval scholarly guessology often based on incorrect connecting of placenames and contains very little native tradition.  I used to be very much into stuff like that but it became clear (disappointingly at first) that scholars think its 90% classical fabrication and 10% native traditions (basically confined to a couple of tribal names like Fir Domnainn/Bold/Gallion etc which are probably the only genuine remnants of native tradition in the scheme.  All the Parthalon, Nemed, Tuatha de Dannan and the Mil stuff has basically nothing to do with the settlement of Ireland.  The Tuatha de Dannan are clearly the story of the old gods of Ireland repackaged to make them palatable to Christian scholars as people.    It in itself is a propoganda piece.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 28, 2012, 09:29:58 AM
Another thing is the suggestion that L21 in the area is coastal, something I think favours the idea that it might be a remnant of non-Basque elements in the area.  I understand the Basques in Spain are though to have moved into the coastal area of the present Basque country of Spain fairly late and that the 3 coastal tribes in the coast of the later Spanish Basque area were probably Celtic.  


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 28, 2012, 10:31:21 AM
As I have posted before, in terms of Iberia it seems that the border area with France is much higher in L21 and hence more similar to Ireland and Atlantic Britain than other parts of Iberia appear to be.  I only recently noticed that Gerald of Wales As I have posted before, in terms of Iberia it seems that the border area with France is much higher in L21 and hence more similar to Ireland and Atlantic Britain than other parts of Iberia appear to be.  I only recently noticed that Gerald of Wales who wrote the first detailed outsiders account of Ireland recounts the book of invasions traditions but interestingly he locates the link with the Irish in the Basque area on the Spanish-French border rather than with Galicia.  He notes that the Irish were Vascones who had tried to settle Britain but had been encourage to go and settled Ireland.  He also mentions that they came from Bayonne on the French-Spanish border.  

http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/topography_ireland.pdf


Alan,
We all know that Gerald of Wales, cousin of Henri II, and related to the Norman Invaders,  writings were propaganda used to justify the Cambro Norman invasion of Ireland. As described in footnotes 151, 152 and 153 Henry II, through his marriage with Eleanor of Aquitaine, acquired the French Basque lands. This chapter is taken from Geoffrey of Monmouth and the Title, Chapte IX Of the Triple and new claim should give us a hint. The Basclenes are evidently The Basques, But this colony does not appear to be admitted by the Irish writers.
What is supported by the vast Corpus of Irish writings is the accounts In Chapter VI and VII, the Invasions of Heber and Herimon.

Oh I am well aware of that background to Gerald of Wales and it needs read with full awareness of the motives and propoganda issue and part of that is that England ruled Aquitaine.  In fact the section that mentions the Basques is up front about being a plea to claim Anglo-Norman authority over the Irish.  However, as long as one is very aware of that then its still of interest in its incidental detail.  

Its just an interesting and perhaps politically motivated twist puts on the Milesian/Book of Invasion myth but the latter is a pack of fabrication anyway based on classical and even biblican sources put together by monks and as such is not really original Irish tradition of origins.  It clearly did later become part of traditions spread by the learned class but no credible Celtic scholars see it as genuine native tradition on the whole except a small element of it.  The amount of credibility it is given on the internet is madness in my opinion, no better (and indeed very similar) to the idea that Brutus founded the Britain.  People are wasting their time trying to get much out of the Book of Invasions type traditions.  That is not to say that there could not have been links with Iberia but the book of invasions is just Medieval scholarly guessology often based on incorrect connecting of placenames and contains very little native tradition.  I used to be very much into stuff like that but it became clear (disappointingly at first) that scholars think its 90% classical fabrication and 10% native traditions (basically confined to a couple of tribal names like Fir Domnainn/Bold/Gallion etc which are probably the only genuine remnants of native tradition in the scheme.  All the Parthalon, Nemed, Tuatha de Dannan and the Mil stuff has basically nothing to do with the settlement of Ireland.  The Tuatha de Dannan are clearly the story of the old gods of Ireland repackaged to make them palatable to Christian scholars as people.    It in itself is a propoganda piece.

I tend to agree that this is just the nature of the early so-called historians. I don't think we should totally  what Gerald of Wales has written any more than what Bede has written, and both are probably several steps above the Book of Invasions.

I've read Gerald of Wales "Description of Wales".  Most of it is simply a reporting of details about the country and the people. This is good information. I would not deny that he provided some propaganda along with the reporting.  We just have to try to separate things out, not outright dismiss them.



Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: rms2 on April 28, 2012, 11:21:54 AM
Of course, what makes what Gerald had to say about the "Basclenses" interesting is the very topic of this thread, i.e., the finding by Begoña Martinez-Cruz et al of higher levels of L21 among the Basques than I think all of us except maybe Ialem had suspected.

Also interesting is Gerald's description of the Irish as a primarily pastoral people, which reminded me of Caesar's comments about the tribes of the British interior in his day, who, according to him, lived off "milk and flesh" and dressed in animal skins.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: JeanL on April 28, 2012, 12:36:22 PM

Another thing is the suggestion that L21 in the area is coastal, something I think favours the idea that it might be a remnant of non-Basque elements in the area.  I understand the Basques in Spain are though to have moved into the coastal area of the present Basque country of Spain fairly late and that the 3 coastal tribes in the coast of the later Spanish Basque area were probably Celtic. 

There isn't any conclusive proof that the Varduli were Celtic-speaking, you could make the case for the Autrigones who had a lot of Celtic-place names in their territory. The main issue is that some Roman historians place the Varduli as a single tribe living between the Cantabri and the Vascones, were others put them between the Caristii and the Vascones. The known names that are located in modern day Guipuzcoan-territory that was inhabited by Varduli were the port of Menosca(Guetaria-Zarautz). There are seven Castro-like structures found in Guipuzcoa: two in Tolosa(Castro de Inchur, Castro de Murumendi), one in Andoain(Castro de Buruntza), one in Anoeta (Castro de Basagain), one in Aspeitia (Castro de Muñoandi)  , one in Mondragon(Castro de Murugain), and one in Elgoibar(Castro de Muru). This is what is often used as the evidence of a possible Celtic-link in the place. However, Cantabria has 47 Castro structures, so either Cantabria was a whole lot more populated than Guipuzcoa at the time, or the vast majority of the people living in Guipuzcoa did not live in Castros, and possibly the few Castros were constructed by Celtic elites, and maybe the population inside the Castros was Celtic or at least indo-European speaking, but I think that the Celts weren’t very successful at establishing themselves in Guipuzcoa, and Eastern Bizkaia, this is probably why the language survived there.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 28, 2012, 04:27:57 PM
Although I would be careful about equating a lack of Castros with a lack of Celts.  Perhaps the Celtic tribes in the area close to the border of France were more of an overspill from France than Celti-Iberian.  Maybe they were simply on the interface between the Celti-Iberian castro culture and the Gaulish Celtic culture.   To me the French-Spanish border looks like the south-western boundary of the elevated L21 zone and as has been pointed out it looks stronger on the coast rather than inland.  It looks to me like the south-west edge of what is essentially a clade that is strongest in the Atlantic half of France (and of course the isles).  So, it kind of looks like a border area for L21 and it of course has been a border area of sorts since prehistory.  It is probably in some ways best seen as the edge of Gaul or France rather than the east of Iberia. 


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: Dubhthach on April 29, 2012, 07:10:55 AM
As I have posted before, in terms of Iberia it seems that the border area with France is much higher in L21 and hence more similar to Ireland and Atlantic Britain than other parts of Iberia appear to be.  I only recently noticed that Gerald of Wales As I have posted before, in terms of Iberia it seems that the border area with France is much higher in L21 and hence more similar to Ireland and Atlantic Britain than other parts of Iberia appear to be.  I only recently noticed that Gerald of Wales who wrote the first detailed outsiders account of Ireland recounts the book of invasions traditions but interestingly he locates the link with the Irish in the Basque area on the Spanish-French border rather than with Galicia.  He notes that the Irish were Vascones who had tried to settle Britain but had been encourage to go and settled Ireland.  He also mentions that they came from Bayonne on the French-Spanish border.  

http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/topography_ireland.pdf


Alan,
We all know that Gerald of Wales, cousin of Henri II, and related to the Norman Invaders,  writings were propaganda used to justify the Cambro Norman invasion of Ireland. As described in footnotes 151, 152 and 153 Henry II, through his marriage with Eleanor of Aquitaine, acquired the French Basque lands. This chapter is taken from Geoffrey of Monmouth and the Title, Chapte IX Of the Triple and new claim should give us a hint. The Basclenes are evidently The Basques, But this colony does not appear to be admitted by the Irish writers.
What is supported by the vast Corpus of Irish writings is the accounts In Chapter VI and VII, the Invasions of Heber and Herimon.

Oh I am well aware of that background to Gerald of Wales and it needs read with full awareness of the motives and propoganda issue and part of that is that England ruled Aquitaine.  In fact the section that mentions the Basques is up front about being a plea to claim Anglo-Norman authority over the Irish.  However, as long as one is very aware of that then its still of interest in its incidental detail.  

Its just an interesting and perhaps politically motivated twist puts on the Milesian/Book of Invasion myth but the latter is a pack of fabrication anyway based on classical and even biblican sources put together by monks and as such is not really original Irish tradition of origins.  It clearly did later become part of traditions spread by the learned class but no credible Celtic scholars see it as genuine native tradition on the whole except a small element of it.  The amount of credibility it is given on the internet is madness in my opinion, no better (and indeed very similar) to the idea that Brutus founded the Britain.  People are wasting their time trying to get much out of the Book of Invasions type traditions.  That is not to say that there could not have been links with Iberia but the book of invasions is just Medieval scholarly guessology often based on incorrect connecting of placenames and contains very little native tradition.  I used to be very much into stuff like that but it became clear (disappointingly at first) that scholars think its 90% classical fabrication and 10% native traditions (basically confined to a couple of tribal names like Fir Domnainn/Bold/Gallion etc which are probably the only genuine remnants of native tradition in the scheme.  All the Parthalon, Nemed, Tuatha de Dannan and the Mil stuff has basically nothing to do with the settlement of Ireland.  The Tuatha de Dannan are clearly the story of the old gods of Ireland repackaged to make them palatable to Christian scholars as people.    It in itself is a propoganda piece.

I tend to agree that this is just the nature of the early so-called historians. I don't think we should totally  what Gerald of Wales has written any more than what Bede has written, and both are probably several steps above the Book of Invasions.

I've read Gerald of Wales "Description of Wales".  Most of it is simply a reporting of details about the country and the people. This is good information. I would not deny that he provided some propaganda along with the reporting.  We just have to try to separate things out, not outright dismiss them.



Well Gearld of Wales account of Ireland is specifically biased. If anything the work has been continuously attacked by Irish authors since the 14th century (beginning of Gaelic Revival). In general it portrays us Irish as been sub-human. It's basically racial-propaganda to justify conquest.


Title: Re: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 01, 2012, 09:08:12 PM
I tend to agree that this is just the nature of the early so-called historians. I don't think we should totally  what Gerald of Wales has written any more than what Bede has written, and both are probably several steps above the Book of Invasions.

I've read Gerald of Wales "Description of Wales".  Most of it is simply a reporting of details about the country and the people. This is good information. I would not deny that he provided some propaganda along with the reporting.  We just have to try to separate things out, not outright dismiss them.

Well Gearld of Wales account of Ireland is specifically biased. If anything the work has been continuously attacked by Irish authors since the 14th century (beginning of Gaelic Revival). In general it portrays us Irish as been sub-human. It's basically racial-propaganda to justify conquest.

umm.. no wonder why he is attacked.   

He may be specifically biased, but he also provides a great deal of specific, good data in his writing.   I guess we just have to ferret out the data from the propaganda.

Bad news, maybe, I may be related.