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Title: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 11, 2012, 07:07:58 PM
We touch on this subject from time to time so I figure we might as well have direct thread for it. If I'm missing a prior one, RMS, please tack this on it to it.

I had one new thought (at least for me) on this. Apparently, linking the language of the Basques, Euskara, with other languages is quite difficult.

...  People have tried to prove links between Euskara and a great array of other languages and/or that a Basque-type of language was spoken all over Europe in the Mesolithic. None of this has been accepted by mainstream linguists such as the late Larry Trask, expert in Euskara. He did admit that there was a legitimate case for a link with PIE (Antonio Tovar argued that the suffix -ko in Basque is so similar in its behaviour to the same suffix reconstructed for PIE that they must have a common origin), but he could make no sense of that, because he assumed that Euskara was a language born in western Europe.  

Is there a link with some Caucasian languages?

Here is the new thought:  If R1b learned IE languages from R1a or someone else all over Europe (I don't necessarily agree but I want to understand) then why wouldn't Celtic and Italic languages show some influence from Euskara?

R1b is very dominant in some areas of Europe so I think that if R1b folks in Europe originally spoke something like a pre-Euskara language then that would have had some impact on Celtic or Italic languages.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: eochaidh on April 11, 2012, 07:26:22 PM
One thing noticable on Eurogenes is the lack of "Caucasus" scores for Basques. French and even some Irish, Cornish, UK and other populations show anywhere from 4% to 12+%, but the Basques show 0%. Georgians and Armenians are, of course, among the highest scores.

I'm 75% Irish and 25% French-Canadian and show a "Caucasus" score of 8%. High for an Irish guy, but not out of line with a Cornish or Kent guy.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: rms2 on April 11, 2012, 07:32:05 PM
One thing noticable on Eurogenes is the lack of "Caucasus" scores for Basques. French and even some Irish, Cornish, UK and other populations show anywhere from 4% to 12+%, but the Basques show 0%. Georgians and Armenians are, of course, among the highest scores.

I'm 75% Irish and 25% French-Canadian and show a "Caucasus" score of 8%. High for an Irish guy, but not out of line with a Cornish or Kent guy.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe

I haven't done the Eurogenes thing with my Family Finder raw data. How does one go about it?

I did Gedmatch, though. I don't recall a "Caucasian" component, but I did get an interesting 11% "Eastern European", which is surprising, since I don't know of any Eastern European ancestry in my background. Of course, that 11% may go back to something pretty old.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: rms2 on April 11, 2012, 07:36:56 PM
We touch on this subject from time to time so I figure we might as well have direct thread for it. If I'm missing a prior one, RMS, please tack this on it to it.

I had one new thought (at least for me) on this. Apparently, linking the language of the Basques, Euskara, with other languages is quite difficult.

...  People have tried to prove links between Euskara and a great array of other languages and/or that a Basque-type of language was spoken all over Europe in the Mesolithic. None of this has been accepted by mainstream linguists such as the late Larry Trask, expert in Euskara. He did admit that there was a legitimate case for a link with PIE (Antonio Tovar argued that the suffix -ko in Basque is so similar in its behaviour to the same suffix reconstructed for PIE that they must have a common origin), but he could make no sense of that, because he assumed that Euskara was a language born in western Europe.  

Is there a link with some Caucasian languages?

Here is the new thought:  If R1b learned IE languages from R1a or someone else all over Europe (I don't necessarily agree but I want to understand) then why wouldn't Celtic and Italic languages show some influence from Euskara?

R1b is very dominant in some areas of Europe so I think that if R1b folks in Europe originally spoke something like a pre-Euskara language then that would have had some impact on Celtic or Italic languages.

Some linguists claim to see a connection between Euskara and some Caucasian languages, but no one has been able to establish anything firm.

I find that quote about Euskara and PIE possibly having a common origin very interesting.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: GoldenHind on April 11, 2012, 08:06:57 PM
Personally, I don't make the leap that P312 was necessarily present in the original Basque population, prior the arrival of IE speakers in the area. I don't deny it is a possibilty, but I don't accept it as proven. The fact that there is so much M153, which is a relatively young P312 subclade, suggests to me that it is a later admixture. There is no doubt that virtually all of the R1b in Iberia and southern France is P312, so there would have been no shortage of it in the area. If it was there long before the Bronze Age, I would expect Basque R1b to be primarily older varieties of P312.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: rms2 on April 11, 2012, 08:11:18 PM

Personally, I don't make the leap that P312 was necessarily present in the original Basque population, prior the arrival of IE speakers in the area. I don't deny it is a possibilty, but I don't accept it as proven. The fact that there is so much M153, which is a relatively young P312 subclade, suggests to me that it is a later admixture. There is no doubt that virtually all of the R1b in Iberia and southern France is P312, so there would have been no shortage of it in the area. If it was there prior to the Bronze Age, I would expect Basque R1b to be primarily older varieties of P312.

Along those same lines, I tend to think the original Basque y haplogroup could have been I-M26, which is still found among them at a decent frequency but which reaches its peak in Sardinia. I understand there might be a connection between the Basque language and an ancient Sardinian language, as well.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: eochaidh on April 11, 2012, 10:27:33 PM
One thing noticable on Eurogenes is the lack of "Caucasus" scores for Basques. French and even some Irish, Cornish, UK and other populations show anywhere from 4% to 12+%, but the Basques show 0%. Georgians and Armenians are, of course, among the highest scores.

I'm 75% Irish and 25% French-Canadian and show a "Caucasus" score of 8%. High for an Irish guy, but not out of line with a Cornish or Kent guy.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe

I haven't done the Eurogenes thing with my Family Finder raw data. How does one go about it?

I did Gedmatch, though. I don't recall a "Caucasian" component, but I did get an interesting 11% "Eastern European", which is surprising, since I don't know of any Eastern European ancestry in my background. Of course, that 11% may go back to something pretty old.

He usually wants all four grandparents from a foreign country (he made and exception with me because I group mostly with Irish - 3 Irish, 1 French-Canadian), but he has also opened it up to lots of US testers. He doesn't always use the US populations in his runs, but he does from time to time. I believe David's contact is on his blog. I'll look for it. If not, I bet his K12q test will show up on Gedmatch and it has Caucasus.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: JeanL on April 11, 2012, 10:42:30 PM
If it was there long before the Bronze Age, I would expect Basque R1b to be primarily older varieties of P312.

Well according to the data of Martinez-Cruz et al(2012) here is the breakdown of the R1b-M269 clades amongst the different Basque populations sampled:

Lapurdi/Nafarroa Beherea ZMX (n=44) Table S4

R-L23+    38/44
    R-L23(xR-P311)   1/44
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   1/44
            R-U106+    0/44
                R-U106(xR-L48)    0/44
                   R-L48    0/44
            R-P312+     36/44
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    16/44
                   R-U152+    1/44
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   0/44
                         R-L20    0/44
                         R-L2   1/44
                   R-L21+     12/44
                   R-Z196+   7/44
                         R-M153   5/44
                         R-SRY2627   2/44

Nafarroa Beherea NLA (n=66) Table S4

R-L23+    52/66
    R-L23(xR-P311)   0/66
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   0/66
            R-U106+    3/66
                R-U106(xR-L48)    1/66
                   R-L48    2/66
            R-P312+     49/66
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    21/66
                   R-U152+    1/66
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   0/66
                         R-L20    0/66
                         R-L2   1/66
                   R-L21+     9/66
                   R-Z196+   18/66
                         R-M153  10/66
                         R-SRY2627   8/66

Zuberoa SOU (n=53) Table S4

R-L23+    42/53
    R-L23(xR-P311)   1/53
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   0/53
            R-U106+    0/53
                R-U106(xR-L48)    0/53
                   R-L48    0/53
            R-P312+     41/53
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    14/53
                   R-U152+    0/53
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   0/53
                         R-L20    0/53
                         R-L2   0/53
                   R-L21+     3/53
                   R-Z196+   24/53
                         R-M153  23/53
                         R-SRY2627   1/53

Roncal, Nafarroa  RON (n=53) Table S4

R-L23+    45/53
    R-L23(xR-P311)   0/53
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   0/53
            R-U106+    1/53
                R-U106(xR-L48)    1/53
                   R-L48    0/53
            R-P312+     44/53
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    16/53
                   R-U152+    3/53
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   2/53
                         R-L20    0/53
                         R-L2   1/53
                   R-L21+    11/53
                   R-Z196+   14/53
                         R-M153  9/53
                         R-SRY2627   5/53

Central/Western Nafarroa  NCO (n=60) Table S4

R-L23+    50/60
    R-L23(xR-P311)   0/60
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   0/60
            R-U106+    0/60
                R-U106(xR-L48)    0/60
                   R-L48    0/60
            R-P312+     50/60
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    27/60
                   R-U152+    0/60
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   0/60
                         R-L20    0/60
                         R-L2   0/60
                   R-L21+     9/60
                   R-Z196+   14/60
                         R-M153  10/60
                         R-SRY2627   4/60

North/Western Nafarroa  NNO (n=51) Table S4

R-L23+    46/51
    R-L23(xR-P311)   0/51
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   1/51
            R-U106+    3/51
                R-U106(xR-L48)    2/51
                   R-L48    1/51
            R-P312+     42/51
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    22/51
                   R-U152+    3/51
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   0/51
                         R-L20    2/51
                         R-L2   1/51
                   R-L21+     5/60
                   R-Z196+   12/51
                         R-M153   8/51
                         R-SRY2627   4/51

Guipuscoa GUI (n=47) Table S4

R-L23+    41/47
    R-L23(xR-P311)   0/47
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   0/47
            R-U106+    0/47
                R-U106(xR-L48)    0/47
                   R-L48    0/47
            R-P312+     41/47
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    26/47
                   R-U152+    0/47
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   0/47
                         R-L20    0/47
                         R-L2   0/47
                   R-L21+     9/47
                   R-Z196+   6/47
                         R-M153   5/47
                         R-SRY2627   1/47

Southwestern Guipuscoa GSO (n=57) Table S4

R-L23+    53/57
    R-L23(xR-P311)   0/57
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   0/57
            R-U106+    0/57
                R-U106(xR-L48)    0/57
                   R-L48    0/57
            R-P312+     53/57
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    32/57
                   R-U152+    0/57
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   0/57
                         R-L20    0/57
                         R-L2   0/57
                   R-L21+     13/57
                   R-Z196+   8/57
                         R-M153   4/57
                         R-SRY2627   4/57

Alava, ALA (n=51) Table S4

R-L23+    37/51
    R-L23(xR-P311)   0/51
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   0/51
            R-U106+    0/51
                R-U106(xR-L48)    0/51
                   R-L48    0/51
            R-P312+     37/51
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    18/51
                   R-U152+    2/51
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   0/51
                         R-L20    0/51
                         R-L2   2/51
                   R-L21+     11/51
                   R-Z196+   6/51
                         R-M153   2/51
                         R-SRY2627   4/51

Bizkaia BBA (n=57) Table S4

R-L23+    52/57
    R-L23(xR-P311)   1/57
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   0/57
            R-U106+    0/57
                R-U106(xR-L48)    0/57
                   R-L48    0/57
            R-P312+     51/57
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    35/57
                   R-U152+    2/57
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   0/57
                         R-L20    0/57
                         R-L2   2/57
                   R-L21+     7/57
                   R-Z196+   7/57
                         R-M153   7/57
                         R-SRY2627   0/57

Western Bizkaia BOC(n=19) Table S4

R-L23+    16/19
    R-L23(xR-P311)   0/19
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   0/19
            R-U106+    0/19
                R-U106(xR-L48)    0/19
                   R-L48    0/19
            R-P312+     16/19
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    9/19
                   R-U152+    1/19
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   0/19
                         R-L20    0/19
                         R-L2   1/19
                   R-L21+     2/19
                   R-Z196+   4/19
                         R-M153   3/19
                         R-SRY2627   1/19

So it seems that in the French Basque provinces R-P312+(R-L21, R-Z196+,R-U152) is dominant over the R-P312, however R-L23 makes an appearance in 2 out of the 3 sampled populations, and also there is R-P311 in one of them. It also worth noticing that R-U106 appears in 2 out of the three populations. Something else to notice is that the ratio of R-L21/R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627) decreases as one moves east. The exception to this rule would be Western Bizkaia, but then again the sample size is really small(i.e. 19). In the case of the Spanish Basque provinces all of them have higher frequencies of R-P312(x R-L21, R-Z196+,R-U152), than R-P312+(R-L21, R-Z196+,R-U152), so in that sense they do have older clades. Also worth noticing the lack of R-U106 in all of the Spanish Basque provinces, minus Navarra, and the dominance of R-L21 over the R-M153/R-SRY2627 combo in Guipuscoa, Bizkaia and Alava.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: razyn on April 12, 2012, 12:23:43 AM
I'm pleased that a study exists that includes Z196.  But the implication that the Z196 of the Basque populated area equals the sum of M153 and SRY2627 seems likely to underestimate the total Z196, by a large factor.  Z209 or Z220 will presumably hit the literature in about another year or so, adding in the NS cluster folks, and the Z196 percentages will go up.  In the meantime, DF27 testing may have made these conversations about Z196 passé, and we can speculate about how much of the P312 (or M269, or whatever subset of R1b) in the Basque country is DF27.  Hint: a lot.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: negative_control on April 12, 2012, 03:06:44 AM
I'm pleased that a study exists that includes Z196.


It doesn't include Z196.

I presume this had been inferred, so theoretically some of the P312 could include Z196+ samples that are xM153 xSRY2627

These are R1b markers tested:
R-L2
R-L20
R-L21
R-L23
R-L48
R-M153
R-M17
R-P311
R-P312
R-SRY10831.2
R-SRY2627
R-U106
R-U152


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: authun on April 12, 2012, 05:14:31 AM
R1b is very dominant in some areas of Europe so I think that if R1b folks in Europe originally spoke something like a pre-Euskara language then that would have had some impact on Celtic or Italic languages.

Theo Vennemann does make the claim that celtic languages, and even germanic languages, show a vasconic substrate in Europa Semitica Europa Vasconica. In addition he cites many toponyms, eg. Basque haran, meaning valley, persisting as aran in places like Val d'Aran, Arundel or Arendal. Also he claims that the vigesimal counting system, ie counting in 20s, four score and ten meaning 90, is vasconic in origin. His critics however nearly always show that some of his claims could also have indo european explanations and, as Basque is known to be influenced by IE, it is not possible to back project Basque to some early version of Vasconic and assume any particular feature was present then and exclusive to Vasconic.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Jean M on April 12, 2012, 06:38:38 AM
Manfred Ostrowski, History of the Basque Language (http://hisp462.tamu.edu/Classes/603/Lects/BasqueHist.pdf) is available online from the Department of Hispanic Studies, Texas A&M University. (Seems to be a written form of a lecture delivered there, with reading list incorporated, with his name spelled incorrectly.)

Ostrowski covers the questions raised here in a straightforward and readable way. For those interested in possible links between the ancestor of Euskara and PIE, there is interesting material. He is not suggesting that they had a common ancestor. PIE and Euskara are too different for that, but borrowings from Proto-Basque to PIE, including one word for silver (zillar).

The other Basque word for silver (urre-zuri)  literally means "white gold". I point out in The Basques (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/basques.shtml) that this suggests a region where gold was discovered first. That points to the eastern Balkans, and cultures such as Cucuteni-Tripolye.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: eochaidh on April 12, 2012, 08:03:19 AM

[/quote]

I haven't done the Eurogenes thing with my Family Finder raw data. How does one go about it?

I did Gedmatch, though. I don't recall a "Caucasian" component, but I did get an interesting 11% "Eastern European", which is surprising, since I don't know of any Eastern European ancestry in my background. Of course, that 11% may go back to something pretty old.
[/quote]

The Eurogenes currently running on Gedmatch has a Caucasus score. I was 7.1% on this one, which is slightly down from other scores. The point is, though, is that most Basque testers would get a 0% Caucasus score. Odd, but true!


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Jean M on April 12, 2012, 08:38:17 AM

.. most Basque testers would get a 0% Caucasus score. Odd, but true!

Not really odd. Fits with various studies which have found no genetic connection. See my page on the Basques.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 12, 2012, 09:12:39 AM
Anatole defines something called “ancient Türkic” which may not be Turkic as we understand it today.  The point he has is that it is agglutinative and he thinks the Basques ancient language is too.  Is there anything to that?

Quote from: Anatole Klyosov
What the article calls “Türkic” or “ancient Türkic” language is based only on the fact that Turkologists call it Türkic. Analyzing the ancient texts (see below) they see specifically the agglutinative Türkic language, the Türkic ethnonyms in Europe. It is possible that this is a misunderstanding, and what they see is an agglutinative language of the haplogroup R1b ancient carriers, which can be called “Erbin” (after R1b). It could be, but not necessarily, a basis, a ground, a substrate for the modern Türkic languages; it could just be a related, lateral branch of the ancient Türkic language. It could be the agglutinative language of the ancient Basques. Was that Türkic language or not is a matter for the linguists to decide. In any case, it does not affect the discourse and conclusions of the article . Those who find the term “Türkic language” in this context (as a pre-IE language in Europe, employing by R1b bearers 4,500-2,500 years before present, and some later) not acceptable may substitute it with the term “Erbin”, and read on.
....
It is very likely that carriers of R1b1b2 reached Iberia 4,800-4,500 years before present, but then they had passed a “population bottleneck”, and reappeared again (through a few survived DNA-lineages) 3,750 ± 380 years ago. This is when a common ancestor of the present-day Basques lived.
http://www.turkicworld.org/turkic/60_Genetics/Klyosov2010DNK-GenealogyEn.htm

He seems to rely on “Türkic ethnonymy of ancient European peoples” by Yu. N. Drozdov,2008.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 12, 2012, 09:24:39 AM
I'm pleased that a study exists that includes Z196.  But the implication that the Z196 of the Basque populated area equals the sum of M153 and SRY2627 seems likely to underestimate the total Z196, by a large factor.  Z209 or Z220 will presumably hit the literature in about another year or so, adding in the NS cluster folks, and the Z196 percentages will go up.  In the meantime, DF27 testing may have made these conversations about Z196 passé, and we can speculate about how much of the P312 (or M269, or whatever subset of R1b) in the Basque country is DF27.  Hint: a lot.

I am really interested in what the totals for DF27 'all' will be.  I imagine its going to be huge in Iberia.  I also would imagine its old too.  It seems to me that DF27 will provide the big primary divide in P312 into two groups and some day a map of that basic divide between DF27 'all' and DF27 ancestral will be very interesting.  Its going to be very interesting to see what remains P312* after DF27 testing and where it is located.



Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: IALEM on April 12, 2012, 10:04:50 AM


Theo Vennemann does make the claim that celtic languages, and even germanic languages, show a vasconic substrate in Europa Semitica Europa Vasconica. In addition he cites many toponyms, eg. Basque haran, meaning valley, persisting as aran in places like Val d'Aran, Arundel or Arendal. Also he claims that the vigesimal counting system, ie counting in 20s, four score and ten meaning 90, is vasconic in origin. His critics however nearly always show that some of his claims could also have indo european explanations and, as Basque is known to be influenced by IE, it is not possible to back project Basque to some early version of Vasconic and assume any particular feature was present then and exclusive to Vasconic.
Not only Aran/Arn but also the variant Earn, in the sense of valley and river, adding a good number of Ethonyms, such as Arnsberg, Arnstadt, Arnstein, Arnschwang, Arnstorf, Ahrensfelde in Germany, and as rivers the Earn in Somerset (already a. 762 Earn), earlier name of a tributary of the Isle; the Arno river (Lat. Arnus) in Tuscany and other Italian rivers of the same name; also the Arn in Southern France, the Arne (a. 1066 Arna) in Northern France, and derivates such as Erft (ca. 700 Arnefa)


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Jean M on April 12, 2012, 10:35:41 AM
Anatole defines something called “ancient Türkic” which may not be Turkic as we understand it today.  The point he has is that it is agglutinative and he thinks the Basques ancient language is too.  Is there anything to that?

See Wikipedia: Agglutinative language  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutinative_language)

Being agglutinative does not mean that there is necessarily a relationship between the languages, as you can easily see from the long list of languages and language families there. The snippet from A.K. seems like one more good reason to read published papers by reputable scholars in their own fields.  


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: JeanLohizun on April 12, 2012, 10:54:33 AM
I'm pleased that a study exists that includes Z196.  But the implication that the Z196 of the Basque populated area equals the sum of M153 and SRY2627 seems likely to underestimate the total Z196, by a large factor.  Z209 or Z220 will presumably hit the literature in about another year or so, adding in the NS cluster folks, and the Z196 percentages will go up.  In the meantime, DF27 testing may have made these conversations about Z196 passé, and we can speculate about how much of the P312 (or M269, or whatever subset of R1b) in the Basque country is DF27.  Hint: a lot.

Well I was replying to a user that said that Basques have mostly R-Z196 derived(Which is true in case of the French Basques) clades. As for whether part of the R-P312 found in Basques might be a different R-Z196 clade or not, I can’t really say much about it. The same thing applies to the DF27 clade, if you are trying to hint something based on the data from the 1000 Genomes, may I remind you that we are talking about 27 samples from all over Spain, afaik there are regional distributions of the R-P312 subclades in Iberia.  In any case, I agree with you, until further testing is done on the DF27 resolution level, all we can do is speculate.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: JeanLohizun on April 12, 2012, 11:02:29 AM
Anatole defines something called “ancient Türkic” which may not be Turkic as we understand it today.  The point he has is that it is agglutinative and he thinks the Basques ancient language is too.  Is there anything to that?

Anatole's theories require for massive bottlenecks all across Europe, and the idea that using the TMRCA found using his  methodology (Which is heavily biased) somehow tracks migrations has been shown to be erroneous: i.e. He estimated E-V13 to be 2800 ybp, when in fact it is proven to be at least 7000 ybp. Moreover like I said multiple times before, I don't buy into the whole mutation rate contants(There isn't such thing as mutation rate constants).


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Maliclavelli on April 12, 2012, 11:22:43 AM
Anatole's theories require for massive bottlenecks all across Europe, and the idea that using the TMRCA found using his  methodology (Which is heavily biased) somehow tracks migrations has been shown to be erroneous: i.e. He estimated E-V13 to be 2800 ybp, when in fact it is proven to be at least 7000 ybp. Moreover like I said multiple times before, I don't buy into the whole mutation rate contants(There isn't such thing as mutation rate constants).

JeanLohizun, but weren’t you already JeanL? Anyway the castle of cards of Anatole Klyosov I have broken in pieces already many years ago, and if one looks at his publications in Chemistry and Genealogy and Genetics certainly wouldn’t have dared. I permitted also to broken in pieces all the speculations of Ken Nordtvedt, respectful physics. And now who bet on them are without fathers. To never obey “ad auctoritatem”.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 12, 2012, 11:26:40 AM
... He estimated E-V13 to be 2800 ybp, when in fact it is proven to be at least 7000 ybp. ....
I don't argue for Klyosov's theories, but I do want to make one point.  It could be true that both E-V13's TMRCA is 2800 ybp and the first E-V13 man was 7000 ybp.

I don't know that if Klyosov's findings are correct or if Anatole's method is correct, but there is a difference between the initial occurrence of an SNP and the Most Recent Common Ancestor for all surviving people for that SNP.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: JeanL on April 12, 2012, 11:28:19 AM
JeanLohizun, but weren’t you already JeanL? Anyway the castle of cards of Anatole Klyosov I have broken in pieces already many years ago, and if one looks at his publications in Chemistry and Genealogy and Genetics certainly wouldn’t have dared. I permitted also to broken in pieces all the speculations of Ken Nordtvedt, respectful physics. And now who bet on them are without fathers. To never obey “ad auctoritatem”.

Yeah and also JeanLo, that was back when I joined, that there was a glitch with the emails,and I ended up having to create a user name every time I wanted to log in, it got fix. What happened now was that I typed the wrong user name, and the password appears to be the same, I noticed it, after I posted it, but yeah my original account is this one JeanL. Not to be a douche about it, but I'm sincerely wondering, has Klyosov made any publications in Chemistry, because the only thing I've seen is him being a editor for some conference, I haven't yet seen any book published by him.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: JeanL on April 12, 2012, 11:31:25 AM

I don't argue for Klyosov's theories, but I do want to make one point.  It could be true that both E-V13's TMRCA is 2800 ybp and the first E-V13 man was 7000 ybp.

I don't that if Klyosov's findings are correct or if Anatole's method is correct, but there is a difference between the initial occurrence of an SNP and the Most Recent Common Ancestor for all surviving people for that SNP.

Fair enough, but what does it matter then if the TMRCA of all  E-V13 folks Europe is 2800 ybp, if there is solid proof that there was an E-V13 folks living in Spain 7000 ybp. I though all along that the point of using the whole TMRCA methodology was to try to track migrations. So one looks at the TMRCA of all Spanish E-V13 nowadays and we get say 2300 ybp, and then in Greece we get 2800 ybp, so one goes and makes the assumption that all E-V13 men in Spain must descend from Greek colonist who arrived in Iberia sometime around 2300 ybp, but it turns out they may very well be descendants of men who had been in Iberia since 7000 ybp, but it just so happens only one lineage survived.


Moreover there are a long list of assumptions that one takes when calculating the so called TMRCA.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Maliclavelli on April 12, 2012, 11:38:59 AM
Not to be a douche about it, but I'm sincerely wondering, has Klyosov made any publications in Chemistry, because the only thing I've seen is him being a editor for some conference, I haven't yet seen any book published by him.

If you look at his publications you'll be astonished. He is one of the hardest workers I have ever found in my life, and I have studied writers whose works are collected in 100 volumes: Marx, Lenin, Mazzini, Carducci etc.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 12, 2012, 11:59:48 AM
I don't argue for Klyosov's theories, but I do want to make one point.  It could be true that both E-V13's TMRCA is 2800 ybp and the first E-V13 man was 7000 ybp.

I don't kow if Klyosov's findings are correct or if Anatole's method is correct, but there is a difference between the initial occurrence of an SNP and the Most Recent Common Ancestor for all surviving people for that SNP.

Fair enough, but what does it matter then if the TMRCA of all  E-V13 folks Europe is 2800 ybp, if there is solid proof that there was an E-V13 folks living in Spain 7000 ybp. I though all along that the point of using the whole TMRCA methodology was to try to track migrations....

It depends on the question you want to answer. If you want to know when an SNP was born, that is a different question than wanting to know how the modern E-V13 people got to where they are today and where they came from.

The TMRCA for a particular subclade, as a stand-alone number, is probably not that valuable other than as an indication of a time of initial expansion. I think it is more valuable to look at the multiple TMRCAs for multiple subclades in one analysis, along with interclade TMRCAs. Of course, the locations where the subclades analyzed appear is part of that.

Moreover there are a long list of assumptions that one takes when calculating the so called TMRCA.
This is why I like looking at the relative STR variance numbers because that avoids the mutation rate issues you are talking about, but variance still gives indications of direction/migration.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Maliclavelli on April 12, 2012, 12:11:10 PM
This is why I like looking at the relative STR variance numbers because that avoids the mutation rate issues you are talking about, but variance still gives indications of direction/migration.

There is no variance when mutations have happened many times forwards and backwards, as it happened for a long time ago. This principle is worth only for a short lapse of time. I have said this to you many times in the past, and you are free to believe in what you like, but for very ancient times I'm afraid that your theories will come out wrong. Already the ADNA whose also JeanL spoke has demonstrated this.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: JeanL on April 12, 2012, 12:16:28 PM
Ok let's us talk some numbers into this conversation:

I analyzed the Basque sample (n=116) from the Adams et al(2008) study, I found the STRs in the supplementary tables.

http://download.cell.com/AJHG/mmcs/journals/0002-9297/PIIS0002929708005922.mmc1.pdf (http://download.cell.com/AJHG/mmcs/journals/0002-9297/PIIS0002929708005922.mmc1.pdf)

I was able to separate the R1b-M269(n=101) lineages, and the I-M170 lineages. (n=9). These R1b-M269 lineages are a combination of R1b-M269(xR-M153, R-SRY2627) and R-M153, and R-SRY2627. I don't know if this is a mixed sample, or if is from a single region in Euskadi. This was done back before testing for R-P312 or R-U106 and their respective subclades. There isn't also any resolution for what clades of I-M170 are present, but it wouldn't be a bad assumption to assume that most of them are I-M26.

After some analysis I discarded two of the Basque lineages, one because it had a heterozygous loci, the other one because  it had a pretty big multi-step mutation. So the final sample for R1b-M269 is n=99.

I ran them through a modal calculator a friend of mine created:

This program takes in a collection of alleles for every locus, and based on the following set of assumption estimates which one is the ancestral(modal) allele:

1-The ancestral allele is such that minimizes the number of mutations in a given locus for a population.

2- The ancestral allele is still present in the sample being analyzed.

This is the ancestral haplotype for the R1b-M269 found in Basques(n=99) from Adams et al(2008)

DYS19 14
DYS388 12
DYS389I 13
DYS389 II 16
DYS390 24
DYS391 11
DYS392 13
DYS393 13
DYS434 11
DYS435 11
DYS436 12
DYS437 15
DYS438 12
DYS439 12
DYS460 11
DYS461 12
DYS462 11
DYS385a 11
DYS385b 14

This is the ancestral haplotype for the I-M170 found in Basques(n=9) from Adams et al(2008)

DYS19 17
DYS388 13
DYS389I 13
DYS389 II 15
DYS390 23
DYS391 10
DYS392 11
DYS393 13
DYS434 11
DYS435 11
DYS436 12
DYS437 15
DYS438 10
DYS439 12
DYS460 10
DYS461 11
DYS462 12
DYS385a 12
DYS385b 12

Now these are the amount of mutations accumulated from the presumed modal haplotype. For R1b-M269(n=99)

DYS19 7 mutations
DYS388 0 mutations
DYS389I 48 mutations
DYS389 II 21 mutations
DYS390 24 mutations
DYS391 37 mutations
DYS392 2 mutations
DYS393 17 mutations
DYS434 1 mutation
DYS435 3 mutations
DYS436 0 mutations
DYS437 30 mutations
DYS438 2 mutations
DYS439 52 mutations
DYS460 46 mutations
DYS461 8 mutations
DYS462 4 mutations
DYS385a 11 mutations
DYS385b 38 mutations

Same thing for I-M170(n=9)

DYS19 7 mutations
DYS388 1 mutation
DYS389I 5 mutations
DYS389 II 2 mutations
DYS390 4 mutations
DYS391 2 mutations
DYS392 0 mutations
DYS393 0 mutation
DYS434 1 mutation
DYS435 0 mutations
DYS436 0 mutations
DYS437 4 mutations
DYS438 0 mutations
DYS439 7 mutations
DYS460 2 mutations
DYS461 2 mutations
DYS462 2 mutations
DYS385a 1 mutations
DYS385b 9 mutations


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 12, 2012, 12:20:52 PM
There is no variance when mutations have happened many times forwards and backwards, as it happened for a long time ago.
Let's not clog up this thread with the details of this argument. I created an "STR Wars" thread to do that over there.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: JeanL on April 12, 2012, 12:26:20 PM
Ok, moved my reply to a different thread I feel is more appropriate.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: rms2 on April 12, 2012, 08:13:55 PM
I'm still amazed by the high rates of L21 among the Basque populations sampled. Of course, that has been remarked on before by me and others, but it still floors me. I didn't expect it. I think it's cool, but I'm not exactly sure why. :-)

It's certainly worth discussing. I am not sure what to think about it.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: rms2 on April 12, 2012, 08:44:33 PM
I'm still amazed by the high rates of L21 among the Basque populations sampled. Of course, that has been remarked on before by me and others, but it still floors me. I didn't expect it. I think it's cool, but I'm not exactly sure why. :-)

It's certainly worth discussing. I am not sure what to think about it.

BTW, I wrote Maciamo Hay of Eupedia to see if I can get him to update his R-L21 map based on the new Basque info from Begoña Martinez-Cruz et al.

The overall L21 frequency among their Basque sample of 558 was just in excess of 16%, and it exceeded 25% in some locations. That is certainly worthy of note.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: JeanL on April 12, 2012, 09:09:56 PM
I'm still amazed by the high rates of L21 among the Basque populations sampled.

There seems to be an East-West cline for R-L21 on the French Basque provinces based on the data from Martinez-Cruz. The same thing applies to R-M153, but in the opposite direction.
 
Lapurdi/Nafarroa Beherea ZMX (n=44) Table S4

R-L21+     12/44 or 27.27%

Nafarroa Beherea NLA (n=66) Table S4

 R-L21+     9/66 or 13.63%

Zuberoa SOU (n=53) Table S4

R-L21+     3/53 or 5.67%

Roncal, Nafarroa  RON (n=53) Table S4

 R-L21+    11/53 or 20.75%

Central/Western Nafarroa  NCO (n=60) Table S4

 R-L21+     9/60 or 15%

North/Western Nafarroa  NNO (n=51) Table S4

 R-L21+     5/60 8.33%

Guipuscoa GUI (n=47) Table S4

 R-L21+     9/47 or 19.15%

Southwestern Guipuscoa GSO (n=57) Table S4

 R-L21+     13/57 or 22.81%

Alava, ALA (n=51) Table S4

 R-L21+     11/51 or 21.57%

Bizkaia BBA (n=57) Table S4

 R-L21+     7/57 or 12.28%

Western Bizkaia BOC(n=19) Table S4

R-L21+     2/19 or 10.53%

Maybe there is a link between R-L21 and the Atlantic Bronze Age after all.



Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: rms2 on April 13, 2012, 07:05:03 AM

There seems to be an East-West cline for R-L21 on the French Basque provinces based on the data from Martinez-Cruz. The same thing applies to R-M153, but in the opposite direction.
 
Lapurdi/Nafarroa Beherea ZMX (n=44) Table S4

R-L21+     12/44 or 27.27%

Nafarroa Beherea NLA (n=66) Table S4

 R-L21+     9/66 or 13.63%

Zuberoa SOU (n=53) Table S4

R-L21+     3/53 or 5.67%

Roncal, Nafarroa  RON (n=53) Table S4

 R-L21+    11/53 or 20.75%

Central/Western Nafarroa  NCO (n=60) Table S4

 R-L21+     9/60 or 15%

North/Western Nafarroa  NNO (n=51) Table S4

 R-L21+     5/60 8.33%

Guipuscoa GUI (n=47) Table S4

 R-L21+     9/47 or 19.15%

Southwestern Guipuscoa GSO (n=57) Table S4

 R-L21+     13/57 or 22.81%

Alava, ALA (n=51) Table S4

 R-L21+     11/51 or 21.57%

Bizkaia BBA (n=57) Table S4

 R-L21+     7/57 or 12.28%

Western Bizkaia BOC(n=19) Table S4

R-L21+     2/19 or 10.53%

Maybe there is a link between R-L21 and the Atlantic Bronze Age after all.



Could be. What I think is kind of outstanding is the sample size: 558. That's big enough so that it is rather difficult to claim these results as some kind of aberration. There is definitely something to this.

BTW, I think I am going to use your post above as a quote to start a new thread on the subject of L21 in the Basque Country.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: GoldenHind on April 13, 2012, 03:36:33 PM

                                                                      So it seems that in the French Basque provinces R-P312+(R-L21, R-Z196+,R-U152) is dominant over the R-P312, however R-L23 makes an appearance in 2 out of the 3 sampled populations, and also there is R-P311 in one of them. It also worth noticing that R-U106 appears in 2 out of the three populations. Something else to notice is that the ratio of R-L21/R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627) decreases as one moves east. The exception to this rule would be Western Bizkaia, but then again the sample size is really small(i.e. 19). In the case of the Spanish Basque provinces all of them have higher frequencies of R-P312(x R-L21, R-Z196+,R-U152), than R-P312+(R-L21, R-Z196+,R-U152), so in that sense they do have older clades. Also worth noticing the lack of R-U106 in all of the Spanish Basque provinces, minus Navarra, and the dominance of R-L21 over the R-M153/R-SRY2627 combo in Guipuscoa, Bizkaia and Alava.



Very interesting, and worthy of some thought. On the issue of whether the Basque P312 is a remnant of a pre-IE population, I compared the near absence of L23 (xP311) amongst the Basques with the L23* data from the FTDNA ht35 project. The amount of R1b-L23* from Turkey, Armenia and other middle eastern populations dwarfs those from western Europe in general and Iberia in particular. To my way of thinking, this clearly demonstrates an east to west movement for L23 and its descendant subclades. A large movement of a non-IE speaking R1b population from the middle east, which eventually swamps all of Europe, seems very difficult to support. It requires pushing the origin of R1b subclades far into the past, and poses an even greater mystery of how IE spread throughout Europe.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 13, 2012, 05:21:22 PM
                                                                   So it seems that in the French Basque provinces R-P312+(R-L21, R-Z196+,R-U152) is dominant over the R-P312, however R-L23 makes an appearance in 2 out of the 3 sampled populations, and also there is R-P311 in one of them. It also worth noticing that R-U106 appears in 2 out of the three populations. Something else to notice is that the ratio of R-L21/R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627) decreases as one moves east. The exception to this rule would be Western Bizkaia, but then again the sample size is really small(i.e. 19). In the case of the Spanish Basque provinces all of them have higher frequencies of R-P312(x R-L21, R-Z196+,R-U152), than R-P312+(R-L21, R-Z196+,R-U152), so in that sense they do have older clades. Also worth noticing the lack of R-U106 in all of the Spanish Basque provinces, minus Navarra, and the dominance of R-L21 over the R-M153/R-SRY2627 combo in Guipuscoa, Bizkaia and Alava.



Very interesting, and worthy of some thought. On the issue of whether the Basque P312 is a remnant of a pre-IE population, I compared the near absence of L23 (xP311) amongst the Basques with the L23* data from the FTDNA ht35 project. The amount of R1b-L23* from Turkey, Armenia and other middle eastern populations dwarfs those from western Europe in general and Iberia in particular. To my way of thinking, this clearly demonstrates an east to west movement for L23 and its descendant subclades. A large movement of a non-IE speaking R1b population from the middle east, which eventually swamps all of Europe, seems very difficult to support. It requires pushing the origin of R1b subclades far into the past, and poses an even greater mystery of how IE spread throughout Europe.

I think it worth to consider the whole phylogenetic trail of R1b-M343 down through P312.  It is more complicated than just L23+ or L23- though and the R1b ht35 project data becomes critical. Of course, we'll be talking about alternatives like Italy, Anatolia and the Near East and then some people in the Ukraine with particular religious affiliations.  Unfortunately, I don't know of a study that has looked in depth at R1b xU106 xP312 and all its subclades and trail.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: JeanL on April 13, 2012, 07:33:20 PM
Very interesting, and worthy of some thought. On the issue of whether the Basque P312 is a remnant of a pre-IE population, I compared the near absence of L23 (xP311) amongst the Basques with the L23* data from the FTDNA ht35 project. The amount of R1b-L23* from Turkey, Armenia and other middle eastern populations dwarfs those from western Europe in general and Iberia in particular. To my way of thinking, this clearly demonstrates an east to west movement for L23 and its descendant subclades. A large movement of a non-IE speaking R1b population from the middle east, which eventually swamps all of Europe, seems very difficult to support. It requires pushing the origin of R1b subclades far into the past, and poses an even greater mystery of how IE spread throughout Europe.

Here is the data of L23(xM412) from Myres et al(2010) Table-S2

Top populations with significant percentages of L23(xM412)

1-Bagvalals (Northeast Caucasus) 19/28 R-L23
2-Tabasarans (Northeast Caucasus) 16/43 R-L23
3-Bashkirs South-east (Bashkortostan, Russia) 106/329
4-Switzerland (Upper Rhone Valley) 9/33
5-Bashkirs South-west (Bashkortostan, Russia) 9/54
6-Turkey (Cappadocia) 13/89
7-Kumyks (Northeast Caucasus) 11/76
8-Lezgis (Northeast Caucasus) 4/31
9-Komis (Perm Oblast, Russia) 7/61
10-Bashkirs South (Bashkortostan, Russia) 9/79
11-Kosovo 13/114
12-Turkey 58/522





Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: JeanL on April 14, 2012, 12:39:07 AM
Here is the variance calculation of the L23(xM412) data from Table-S3 of Myres et al(2010) by regions using all 10 STRs.

Caucasus(n=32) 0.3063

Europe(n=86) 0.2302
    Eastern-Europe(n=57) 0.2070
    Western-Europe(n=29) 0.2759

Middle East: Turkey(n=58) 0.2828

Central Asia: Bashkir(n=29)-Pakistan(n=5) 0.1029

Here is the variance calculation of the L23(xM412) data from Table-S3 of Myres et al(2010) by regions using the 3 STRs with the slowest/more linear mutation rates (DYS388, DYS392, DYS393).

Caucasus(n=32) 0.1875

Europe(n=86) 0.1434
    Eastern-Europe(n=57) 0.1228
    Western-Europe(n=29) 0.1839

Middle East: Turkey(n=58) 0.1552

Central Asia: Bashkir(n=29)-Pakistan(n=5) 0.0588

So here is a really good example of what I was previously talking about, when doing the variance for the Myres et al(2010) dataset, if one takes the European continent as a whole and using all the 10 STRs(Where 3 are slow mutating STRs, and 7 are fast mutating) it turns out that the variance of L-23 goes like Caucasus(0.3063)>Turkey(0.2828)>Europe(0.2302)>Central Asia(0.1029). But when Europe is divided into Eastern and Western Europe, it turns out Western Europe(var=0.2759) has a much greater variance than Eastern Europe(var=0.2070), and almost the same variance as Turkey(var= 0.2828). Now when I only used the slowest STRs, which are the most linear ones, it turns out Western Europe(var=0.1839) has a variance which is somewhat smaller than that of the Caucasus (var=0.1875), but it is greater than that of Turkey( var=0.1552).

Just for the purpose of showing the effects of microsatellite choice, here is the variance using the fastest/less linear STRs (DYS390, DYS391, DYS19, DYS439)

Caucasus(n=32) 0.3203

Europe(n=86) 0.2297
    Eastern-Europe(n=57) 0.1930
    Western-Europe(n=29) 0.3017

Middle East: Turkey(n=58) 0.3707

Central Asia: Bashkir(n=29)-Pakistan(n=5) 0.1250

Surprise, surprise, now Turkey (0.3707) shows a higher variance than Western Europe(0.3017) and the Causasus(0.3203). So here is the perfect example of what I was talking about. Something very clear though: is that for any given combination of STRs the variance of R-L23 in Western Europe is far greater than that of Eastern Europe, at least for the Myres et al(2010) dataset. This doesn’t fit with the scenario of L-23 coming from the East via continental Europe. Using the slowest/most linear STRs on this dataset it seems L-23 is about the same age in Western Europe as it is in the Caucasus, and older than Turkey, and a lot older than in Eastern Europe. Any thoughts as to what could cause such scenario?


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: OConnor on April 14, 2012, 03:23:12 PM
wouldn't the numbers increase at the natural barrier, that being the ocean?
i thought that was the idea behind the Atlantic sequence?


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Jean M on April 14, 2012, 08:42:11 PM
Something very clear though: is that for any given combination of STRs the variance of R-L23 in Western Europe is far greater than that of Eastern Europe ... Any thoughts as to what could cause such scenario?

It would fit my theory that there were different waves into Western Europe in the Copper Age via the Mediterranean from the Danube/Western steppe area - some speaking IE and others speaking languages of other cultures there.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Jean M on April 14, 2012, 08:44:27 PM
wouldn't the numbers increase at the natural barrier, that being the ocean?
i thought that was the idea behind the Atlantic sequence?

The density of the R1b haplogroup overall increases towards the ocean. That doesn't necessarily mean that the percentage of R-L23 specifically will increase, or that its diversity will increase.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: JeanL on April 14, 2012, 09:37:49 PM
It would fit my theory that there were different waves into Western Europe in the Copper Age via the Mediterranean from the Danube/Western steppe area - some speaking IE and others speaking languages of other cultures there.

Well, wouldn't that mean that the regions closet to the origin of R-L23 would have a greater variance, how come the Western European sample from Myres et al(2010) has a far greater variance than the Eastern European sample. 


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Jean M on April 14, 2012, 10:00:12 PM
High variance can arise in various ways:

  • By accumulating new mutations at the point of origin, where a haplogroup has been longest.
  • By migration of an entire population (or a large sample of it) from the point of origin to a new locale, taking with it the variance that developed in the source population.
  • By migration into a locale of individuals from more than one source of a particular haplogroup, carrying mutations that have arisen in those sources. The sources could include the original point of origin, but are not restricted to it. The classic model is the United States, which could have R-L23 from various European and Asian countries, which has had time to develop various mutations in those countries prior to moving to the US.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: JeanL on April 14, 2012, 10:15:25 PM
High variance can arise in various ways:

  • By accumulating new mutations at the point of origin, where a haplogroup has been longest.
  • By migration of an entire population (or a large sample of it) from the point of origin to a new locale, taking with it the variance that developed in the source population.
  • By migration into a locale of individuals from more than one source of a particular haplogroup, carrying mutations that have arisen in those sources. The sources could include the original point of origin, but are not restricted to it. The classic model is the United States, which could have R-L23 from various European and Asian countries, which has had time to develop various mutations in those countries prior to moving to the US.


Well the variance found in Western Europe isn’t much lower than that of the Caucasus, if a sub-set of men left the Caucasus during the Bronze age and left for Western Europe, then those folks who stayed behind would accumulate much more variance than the subset that left. As for the different sources of the L23, I agree, but that scenario could very well apply in Anatolia, the Caucasus, etc. Is there some sort of barrier that makes migration of L23 only from Western Asia to Europe?   


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Jean M on April 14, 2012, 10:29:18 PM
..  if a sub-set of men left the Caucasus during the Bronze age and left for Western Europe

The Caucasus is highly unlikely to be the source for the European population. R1b seems to have arrived in the Caucasus long after the Bronze Age. In the North Caucasus it has been dated to a period consistent with incoming Sarmatian men in the Late Iron Age, followed by elite families of Alans in the early Middle Ages. It is found in Ossets today. Among Armenians the haplotypes of individuals belonging to the R1b1a2*-M269 and R1b1a2a*-L23 lineages are similar to those of East European descent, consistent with the Armenian language coming from the Eastern Balkans via Anatolia in the 6th century BC, as deduced from linguistics and an account by Herodotus.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: JeanL on April 14, 2012, 10:36:54 PM
..  if a sub-set of men left the Caucasus during the Bronze age and left for Western Europe

The Caucasus is highly unlikely to be the source for the European population. R1b seems to have arrived in the Caucasus long after the Bronze Age. In the North Caucasus it has been dated to a period consistent with incoming Sarmatian men in the Late Iron Age, followed by elite families of Alans in the early Middle Ages. It is found in Ossets today. Among Armenians the haplotypes of individuals belonging to the R1b1a2*-M269 and R1b1a2a*-L23 lineages are similar to those of East European descent, consistent with the Armenian language coming from the Eastern Balkans via Anatolia in the 6th century BC, as deduced from linguistics and an account by Herodotus.

Well the Caucasus populations are the ones with the highest variance of R-L23, at least from the data from Myres et al(2010), which doesn’t include Armenians but Northeast Caucasian people such as Bagvalals, Tabasarans, Kumyks, Lezgis. If Eastern Europe was the source of R-L23 to the Caucasus, then it makes no sense that Eastern Europe would have such a low variance compared to the Caucasus.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 14, 2012, 10:38:05 PM
Here is the variance calculation of the L23(xM412) data from Table-S3 of Myres et al(2010) by regions using all 10 STRs.
....
Here is the variance calculation of the L23(xM412) data from Table-S3 of Myres et al(2010) by regions using the 3 STRs with the slowest/more linear mutation rates (DYS388, DYS392, DYS393).
....
So here is a really good example of what I was previously talking about
...
Just for the purpose of showing the effects of microsatellite choice, here is the variance using the fastest/less linear STRs (DYS390, DYS19, DYS439)...

Just three or ten STRs are just not enough. Of course, with such a limited experiment you are going to get erratic results.  Remember Sandy Paterson's simulations where it was determined you need a minimum of 50 STRs to have any precision?

Also, I think you are doing comparisons of R-L23xM412. This is NOT a haplogroup. It is a paragroup. Since it is not really a single group with a single common ancestor I'm not sure that is a valid comparison to make between geographies.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: JeanL on April 14, 2012, 10:52:51 PM
Quote from: Mikewww link=topic=10511.msg129159#msg129159

Just three or ten STRs are just not enough. Of course, with such a limited experiment you are going to get erratic results.  Remember Sandy Paterson's simulations where it was determined you need a minimum of 50 STRs to have any precision?

Also, I think you are doing comparisons of R-L23xM412. This is NOT a haplogroup. It is a paragroup. Since it is not really a single group with a single common ancestor I'm not sure that is a valid comparison to make between geographies.

I'm working with what I got, the data from Myres et al(2010) was sampled using 10 STRs, and the point of the exercise I did, was to show how much the variance changed when one used more linear vs.less linear STRs. As you can see when all of the STRs are used, Turkey turns out to have a higher variance than Western Europe, but when the slowest, most linear ones are used, it turns out Western Europe has a higher variance. It’s not about the numbers, but about the choice, of course 10-20 slow STRs trump 3 slow STRs, however to say that a set of 50 STRs regardless of their mutation rate is better than a set of 10-20 slow STRs is just not logic to me. Yeah I’m doing comparisons on the L23(xM412) data from Myres et al(2010), and yes maybe the folks from the Caucasus are have some SNP than the folks from Europe do not have, but that doesn’t change the fact that they both descend from an L23 man, so yeah it is a group with a single common ancestor. 


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Jean M on April 15, 2012, 07:17:00 AM
Well the Caucasus populations are the ones with the highest variance of R-L23, at least from the data from Myres et al (2010), which doesn’t include Armenians

Yes it does. Here is the list of populations of the Caucasus included in the Myers dataset which contained any R-L23 arranged by language:

Indo-European
Armenians 0.038
Northern Osetins 0.045

Turkic
Balkars (Karachay-Balkar) 0.022
Karachays (Karachay-Balkar) 0.043
Kumyks (Kumyk) 0.145

North-East Caucasian of Dagestan branch
Andis (Avar-Andi branch) 0.061
Avars (Avar-Andi branch) 0.024
Darginians 0.029
Bagvalals (Lezgi branch) 0.679
Lezgis (Lezgi branch) 0.129
Tabasarans (Lezgi branch) 0.372

North-West Caucasian
Abazas (Abkhaz-Abazin branch) 0.034
Abkhazes (Abkhaz-Abazin branch) 0.031
Cherkessians (Circassian branch) 0.008
Kabardians (Circassian branch) 0.028

Kartvelian
Megrels  0.015

The Caucasus has been a place of refuge for various peoples at various times. It is a patchwork of different languages, preserved in some cases in isolated valleys. The Caucasus should never be treated as though it were a single population. It has been a receiver of populations from many sources. I would be absolutely astonished not to find high variance here.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: JeanL on April 15, 2012, 11:07:45 AM
OK here is detailed breakdown of the populations used to calculate the variance in the Caucasus sample of the Myres et al(2010) sample.

Total(n=32)

Abkhazes-1
Andis-3
Armenians-1
Avars-1
Bagvalals-6
Balkars-1
Cherkessians-1
Darginians-2
Kabardinians-2
Kumyks-3
Lezgis-3
Megrels-1
Northern Osetin-2
Tabassarans-5


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on April 16, 2012, 10:15:13 AM
It seems to me that R1b-M153 must have arisen "on site" after the arrival and settlement of Basque-speaking people.  There are at least two theories to explain its presence there:

1.  The original Basque-speaking (or Aquitanian-speaking) people of southwestern France were R1b, thus dissociating R1b from Indo-European language.  In this theory, Z196 and its descendants in southern France and Iberia would be associated primarily with non-Indo-European-speaking peoples.

2.  R1b represents an intrusion from a non-Basque-speaking people (probably of Celtic or proto-Celtic origin) and thus signifies a gene flow from Indo-European-speaking populations.  In this theory, Basque would have been a language spoken *before* this intrusion, by peoples who were not R1b (perhaps some form of I), and the R1b newcomers would then have been "assimilated" into this language culture.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: razyn on April 16, 2012, 11:40:26 AM
These matters were debated on Eupedia last year, and at some point I even participated in that, before I got enough Experience Points or whatever to start a separate thread about Z196 as such.  In case anyone is interested (there are wildly variant viewpoints on that forum, but some very well informed Europeans only post there), here is the old thread:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26727-Lack-of-G2a-in-Basque


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: GoldenHind on April 16, 2012, 02:38:47 PM
It seems to me that R1b-M153 must have arisen "on site" after the arrival and settlement of Basque-speaking people.  There are at least two theories to explain its presence there:

1.  The original Basque-speaking (or Aquitanian-speaking) people of southwestern France were R1b, thus dissociating R1b from Indo-European language.  In this theory, Z196 and its descendants in southern France and Iberia would be associated primarily with non-Indo-European-speaking peoples.

2.  R1b represents an intrusion from a non-Basque-speaking people (probably of Celtic or proto-Celtic origin) and thus signifies a gene flow from Indo-European-speaking populations.  In this theory, Basque would have been a language spoken *before* this intrusion, by peoples who were not R1b (perhaps some form of I), and the R1b newcomers would then have been "assimilated" into this language culture.


Number 2 seems much more likely to me. We should probably be speaking in terms of the parent DF27, rather than it's subclade Z196. Assigning a non IE language to all of DF27, which is spread throughout Europe, presents far more problems than those of the second scenario.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: A_Wode on April 17, 2012, 10:47:02 PM
My own thought is the spread of "Caucasus/West Asian" genes post-dates the Roman period. Consider this, a North-West Norwegian has more of this component than some areas of France. Isn't this strange? Well I suppose it isn't if you consider almost all of Europe, except some isolated regions like Basque territory must have been spreading genes around, perhaps more female related than male? I don't know, but it seems female variation exceeds male.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: IALEM on April 18, 2012, 05:20:41 AM
It seems to me that R1b-M153 must have arisen "on site" after the arrival and settlement of Basque-speaking people.  There are at least two theories to explain its presence there:

1.  The original Basque-speaking (or Aquitanian-speaking) people of southwestern France were R1b, thus dissociating R1b from Indo-European language.  In this theory, Z196 and its descendants in southern France and Iberia would be associated primarily with non-Indo-European-speaking peoples.

2.  R1b represents an intrusion from a non-Basque-speaking people (probably of Celtic or proto-Celtic origin) and thus signifies a gene flow from Indo-European-speaking populations.  In this theory, Basque would have been a language spoken *before* this intrusion, by peoples who were not R1b (perhaps some form of I), and the R1b newcomers would then have been "assimilated" into this language culture.


Number 2 seems much more likely to me. We should probably be speaking in terms of the parent DF27, rather than it's subclade Z196. Assigning a non IE language to all of DF27, which is spread throughout Europe, presents far more problems than those of the second scenario.
I think that dissociating DNA from languages is what presents far less problems that trying to match languages with DNA. Remember (I have to remind that everytime) that it is not only Basques, in ancient times there were a much larger region in Western Europe that spoke non IE languages and that it is today heavy in R1B


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 18, 2012, 08:39:20 AM
I copied over the STR variance by haplogroup information from the STR Wars thread, primarily because I wanted everyone to see the difference in diversity between M153, the "Basque marker" and its probable parent, Z209 and the North-South cluster and then Z196 above that. My M153 data is very limited.
For the Z169-1418(North-South) variety I included everyone with the STR signature, not just the Z209+ tested folks.

Quote from: Mikewww link=topic=10513.msg129272#msg129272
Relative variance with the 49 mixed speed, non-multicopy, non-null STRs from FTDNA's 1st 67:
[font=courier
Z196_________:  Var=1.00 (N=285)   
Z196-1418(NS):  Var=0.92 (N=97)   
SRY2627______:  Var=0.83 (N=151)   
M153_________:  Var=0.31 (N=7)

U152________:  Var=1.07 (N=806)
L2__________:  Var=1.02 (N=287)
Z56_________:  Var=0.97 (N=32)   
Z36_________:  Var=0.92 (N=34)   

L21__________:  Var=0.99 (N=2590)
DF21_________:  Var=0.80 (N=116)
L513_________:  Var=0.75 (N=157)
Z253_________:  Var=0.61 (N=145)
M222_________:  Var=0.49 (N=540)
Z255_________:  Var=0.39 (N=102) [/font]

Albeit that the data for M153 is limited, it appears to be quite young, younger than M222, for example.   The z1418-North-South people are much older and are spread all over.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: razyn on April 18, 2012, 10:16:15 AM
I copied over the STR variance by haplogroup information from the STR Wars thread, primarily because I wanted everyone to see the difference in diversity between M153, the "Basque marker" and its probable parent, Z209 and the North-South cluster and then Z196 above that. My M153 data is very limited.
For the Z196-1418(North-South) variety I included everyone with the STR signature, not just the Z209+ tested folks.
___________

Albeit that the data for M153 is limited, it appears to be quite young, younger than M222, for example.   The z1418-North-South people are much older and are spread all over.

To my way of thinking, this is the rational point of departure for discussing the topic of this thread.  Is the sample-size problem a function of using only 67-marker haplotypes?  Because I'd think you could get much bigger Basque samples, but tested at a much lower level.  Then it clearly wouldn't be possible to compare "49 mixed speed, non-multicopy, non-null STRs," of guys who had only taken a 12-marker test and an M-153 SNP test.  Most of the guys in the M153 project at least got 37-marker tests.  (2 out of 13 only tested 12 markers -- and the "Basque" SNP.)  Of the remaining eleven, only one didn't have the 1418 signature.  His was 1417.

Somewhere out there, there should be a mine rich enough for data miners to work, with some hope of profit.  But I'm not sure where it is.  Academic studies still seem to be looking at just the first ten or twelve markers -- although I have no clue what may be "in press" or under peer review, as we speak.  It may be that someone on the planet is looking at long haplotypes, but I'll believe that when I see it.  Anyway, at that level, they can't be targeting the 1418 guys for M153 SNP testing -- nor for that matter Z196, Z209, Z220, etc.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: A_Wode on April 18, 2012, 12:40:08 PM
I think that dissociating DNA from languages is what presents far less problems that trying to match languages with DNA. Remember (I have to remind that everytime) that it is not only Basques, in ancient times there were a much larger region in Western Europe that spoke non IE languages and that it is today heavy in R1B

I am okay with this idea, provided the fact that there is an admission that we do not know anything about these languages. That said, could they not also be dead branches of PIE? For all intents and purposes these languages could be anything - of course no expert on the topic, I would expect to see far more of substance than what was provided by this Theo Vennemann character. I have yet to see anything - except that "they must be Basque-like" which I think is a brutal argument.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 18, 2012, 05:15:41 PM
I copied over the STR variance by haplogroup information from the STR Wars thread, primarily because I wanted everyone to see the difference in diversity between M153, the "Basque marker" and its probable parent, Z209 and the North-South cluster and then Z196 above that. My M153 data is very limited.
For the Z196-1418(North-South) variety I included everyone with the STR signature, not just the Z209+ tested folks.
___________

Albeit that the data for M153 is limited, it appears to be quite young, younger than M222, for example.   The z1418-North-South people are much older and are spread all over.

To my way of thinking, this is the rational point of departure for discussing the topic of this thread.  Is the sample-size problem a function of using only 67-marker haplotypes?  Because I'd think you could get much bigger Basque samples, but tested at a much lower level.  Then it clearly wouldn't be possible to compare "49 mixed speed, non-multicopy, non-null STRs," of guys who had only taken a 12-marker test and an M-153 SNP test.  Most of the guys in the M153 project at least got 37-marker tests.  (2 out of 13 only tested 12 markers -- and the "Basque" SNP.)  Of the remaining eleven, only one didn't have the 1418 signature.  His was 1417.

I looked at the Basque project.  I have all of the M153+ I can find anywhere in FTDNA projects in the Haplotype Data P312xL21 file.  There were a couple of good suspects who were not deep clade tested but I honestly couldn't tell whether they were probably M153+ or just plain North-South and probably Z209+ M153-.  

If I back off to 37 length markers I get a few more M153 which gets us up to 15 - which is not really that bad a minimum number... not that good either.


Z196 All_______:  Var=0.98 [Mixed 24]  (N=372)   
Z196-1418(NS):_:  Var=1.00 [Mixed 24]  (N=117)   
M153___________:  Var=0.44 [Mixed 24]  (N=15)   

Z196 All_______:  Var=1.05 [Linear 16]  (N=372)   
Z196-1418(NS):_:  Var=1.03 [Linear 16]  (N=117)   
M153___________:  Var=0.43 [Linear 16]  (N=15)   


That doesn't really change anything so I'll say it again.  M153 appears to be quite young, perhaps about M222's age, for example.   The z1418-North-South people are much older and are spread all over.

Now what would be interesting would be either:
1) There were zero z196-1418-NS M153- people in the Basque populations or
2) There were M153 found outside of Aquitaine and Northern Iberia.

#1 is appears to be false as there are z196-1418-NS look people in the Basque project that are M153-. Well, I don't know. Are the following two Iberian surnames who just joined the Basque project? López and Yriarte?

#2 would be really interesting because that would be evidence that M153 and his some of his Z196 brothers might have arrived late into the pre-Basque/Basque culture.  I keep thinking about that one M153+ result in the Old Norway Project....   one does not a trend make, but if a M153 turned out to be a little more significant in Scandinavia than could be accounted for by an historic era movement...  I don't think we've ever found M153 in the Isles so if a Basque fisherman made it to Scandinavia his group didn't stop off at the Isles.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: GoldenHind on April 18, 2012, 07:32:13 PM
It seems to me that R1b-M153 must have arisen "on site" after the arrival and settlement of Basque-speaking people.  There are at least two theories to explain its presence there:

1.  The original Basque-speaking (or Aquitanian-speaking) people of southwestern France were R1b, thus dissociating R1b from Indo-European language.  In this theory, Z196 and its descendants in southern France and Iberia would be associated primarily with non-Indo-European-speaking peoples.

2.  R1b represents an intrusion from a non-Basque-speaking people (probably of Celtic or proto-Celtic origin) and thus signifies a gene flow from Indo-European-speaking populations.  In this theory, Basque would have been a language spoken *before* this intrusion, by peoples who were not R1b (perhaps some form of I), and the R1b newcomers would then have been "assimilated" into this language culture.


Number 2 seems much more likely to me. We should probably be speaking in terms of the parent DF27, rather than it's subclade Z196. Assigning a non IE language to all of DF27, which is spread throughout Europe, presents far more problems than those of the second scenario.
I think that dissociating DNA from languages is what presents far less problems that trying to match languages with DNA. Remember (I have to remind that everytime) that it is not only Basques, in ancient times there were a much larger region in Western Europe that spoke non IE languages and that it is today heavy in R1B

While I would never suggest a one on one correlation between haplogroups and languages, we can't ignore the fact that IE languages are spoken throughout Europe, where R1b is the predominant HG. You may see that as a coincidence, but I do not.
I have always thought Ireland is the key. Their language has been Celtic for a very long time, and Ireland is close to 100% R1b. The only reasonable explanation I can see is that it was introduced there by R1b.
Any attempt to completely disassociate R1b from the introduction of IE  in Europe presents what I see as an insurmountable problem, and assumes there is no connection between language and population movements.
However that does not mean that all of R1b necessarily spoke IE, or that no other HG did so.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: IALEM on April 19, 2012, 05:03:39 AM

While I would never suggest a one on one correlation between haplogroups and languages, we can't ignore the fact that IE languages are spoken throughout Europe, where R1b is the predominant HG. You may see that as a coincidence, but I do not.
I have always thought Ireland is the key. Their language has been Celtic for a very long time, and Ireland is close to 100% R1b. The only reasonable explanation I can see is that it was introduced there by R1b.
Any attempt to completely disassociate R1b from the introduction of IE  in Europe presents what I see as an insurmountable problem, and assumes there is no connection between language and population movements.
However that does not mean that all of R1b necessarily spoke IE, or that no other HG did so.
I have selected those key sentences in your post. Because they are resting all in the assumption that there is an univocal connection between language and population movements, and that is not the case. I don´t doubt that sometimes language is changed by population replacement, but there are plenty of examples of cultural replacement  without much change in population.
If you admit the possibility of cultura change then it becomes the alternative explanation for Celtic in Ireland and the problem of IE expansion is no longer unsurmountable.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 19, 2012, 10:19:29 AM
I have selected those key sentences in your post. Because they are resting all in the assumption that there is an univocal connection between language and population movements, and that is not the case. I don´t doubt that sometimes language is changed by population replacement, but there are plenty of examples of cultural replacement  without much change in population.
If you admit the possibility of cultura change then it becomes the alternative explanation for Celtic in Ireland and the problem of IE expansion is no longer unsurmountable.

Maybe in your mind, but not in mine. Ireland has seen few if any large scale conquests compared to other regions in Europe, no doubt due to it being an island and being on the geographic periphery of NW Europe. That anything cultural would have caused a language shift from non-IE to IE in Irish L21 is extremely unlikely.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 19, 2012, 10:48:55 AM
I have selected those key sentences in your post. Because they are resting all in the assumption that there is an univocal connection between language and population movements, and that is not the case. .I don´t doubt that sometimes language is changed by population replacement, but there are plenty of examples of cultural replacement  without much change in population
If you admit the possibility of cultura change then it becomes the alternative explanation for Celtic in Ireland and the problem of IE expansion is no longer unsurmountable.
I don't think anyone will say a total (100%) population change is required to change languages, but there must be some contact and probably some additional new people (to change the balance) at least enough to motivate the language change.

What are the examples of language replacement with little population change that you are thinking of?


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Dubhthach on April 19, 2012, 02:33:41 PM

Maybe in your mind, but not in mine. Ireland has seen few if any large scale conquests compared to other regions in Europe, no doubt due to it being an island and being on the geographic periphery of NW Europe. That anything cultural would have caused a language shift from non-IE to IE in Irish L21 is extremely unlikely.

As an Irishman I would caution about this. Ireland is also a prime example of language-shift happening in the last 300 years where the vast bulk of population (97% today) shifted to language of a dominant introduced elite.

In 1700 about 90% of population spoke Irish, by 1770 this had dropped to around 66%, by 1800 it was down to 50%

The situation got so grave during the 19th century (with famine and mass migration) that some thought that Irish may cease to be a spoken language in the first two decades of the 20th century. Even 90 years of official "support" (mostly token at best) has not even fully stop the shift, with continunal population loss in Gaeltacht (irish speaking) areas. I've read reports from the 1960's-1970's that predicted the death of the language as a community language by 2000. This didn't happen thankfully.

Of course one could argue that shifting between two IE languages isn't too much of an issue. It however negates the fact that Irish and English (Celtic/Germanic) aren't the closest related in the IE family. That and Irish has a compeltely different word ordering then non-Celtic (insular celtic) languages. Been VSO instead of SVO of English eg.
"hit me the ball" vs. "I hit the ball"

Anyways leaving that aside I think the TMRCA data shows L21 as been under 4,000 years old, with highest varience on the continent. This at least implies a major population replacement of male lineages in Ireland sometime from the Late Bronze Age onwards (Ireland has been inhabited since 8,000 BC)


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: IALEM on April 19, 2012, 05:52:44 PM
I have selected those key sentences in your post. Because they are resting all in the assumption that there is an univocal connection between language and population movements, and that is not the case. .I don´t doubt that sometimes language is changed by population replacement, but there are plenty of examples of cultural replacement  without much change in population
If you admit the possibility of cultura change then it becomes the alternative explanation for Celtic in Ireland and the problem of IE expansion is no longer unsurmountable.
I don't think anyone will say a total (100%) population change is required to change languages, but there must be some contact at least to motivate the language change.

What are the examples of language replacement with little population change that you are thinking of?
Besides the numerous examples of modern societies in which the methodsw at the disposal of an state to impose a language are well known, for primitive societies we have the classical study by Fredrik Barth Ethnic groups and boundaries. The social organization of culture difference, where he showws how Baluchi is extending through the Pashtun because the Baluchi society, being hierarchical, is able to better integrate individuals while the more egalitarian Pashtun have very little integration capacity. The study is cited by Mallory as an explanation for the IE expansion.


Title: Re: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 19, 2012, 06:05:09 PM
Ireland has seen few if any large scale conquests compared to other regions in Europe, no doubt due to it being an island and being on the geographic periphery of NW Europe. That anything cultural would have caused a language shift from non-IE to IE in Irish L21 is extremely unlikely.
This is along the same lines of thinking that I come up with to dispute the "IE=R1a and R1b learned IE from R1a" hypothesis.  Where are the R1a Celtics along the western fringes of Europe. There just aren't that many, so what convinced so many R1b people to speak R1b in the middle of or in Western Europe.  Much of R1b must have learned IE somewhere close to the PIE homeland if not in the PIE homeland.