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Title: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 09, 2012, 11:01:11 PM
I was under the impression that Germanic languages might have descended from Scandinavia down into Germany.  I see that is not necessarily the consensus any more.
Quote from: Wikipedia
No homogeneous contribution to the Germanic-speaking northerners has been determined, while earlier notions holding proto-Germanic peoples to have emigrated from Denmark during the Northern Bronze Age have been abandoned by archaeologists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jastorf_culture

I've been finding U106 STR diversity as young in Scandinavia, when compared to the Low Countries, the rest of Continental Europe or the British Isles.

Perhaps there is an alignment with expansions of U106 and Germanic languages, but not necessarily out of Scandinavia.

What do we know about the whereabouts of the beginnings of the Germanic culture?

I also see where there is a theory that the people of the Nordwestblock may have been a buffer holding Germanic speakers out of the Frisian area until fairly late, not completely giving into Germanic settlement until about 250 BC.
Quote from: Wikipedia
It is uncertain when Germanic began to gain a foothold in the area. The Nordwestblock region north of the Rhine is traditionally conceived as belonging to the realms of the Northern Bronze Age, with the Harpstedt Iron Age generally assumed to represent the Germanic precedents west of the Jastorf culture. The general development converged with the emergence of Germanic within other previously Northern Bronze Age regions to the east, maybe also involving a certain degree of Germanic cultural diffusion....
The issue still remains unresolved and so far no conclusive evidence has been forwarded to support any alternative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordwestblock


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 10, 2012, 02:19:56 AM
The Germani  (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/germani.shtml) : maps, references, story.



Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Maliclavelli on April 10, 2012, 03:45:14 AM


[Message Deleted]


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Arwunbee on April 10, 2012, 06:06:10 AM
The proto Germanic urmheit is north Jutland / southern Sweden.

U106 and R1a carry their pre-proto-Germanic from the NW Black Sea to the SW Baltic perhaps as the Globular Amphora culture, encountering haplogroup I resistance and language influence.  Probably also encountering P312 and with onset of Corded Ware the resulting I / U106 / R1a / P312 mix becomes Proto Germanic in aforementioned urmheit.

The 1000 BC Urnfield gravesite near Hannover was a combination of I / U106 / R1a men.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 10, 2012, 08:02:54 AM
As I recall, Mallory's book, In Search of the Indo-Europeans, associates the Jastorf and Harpstedt cultures with the beginnings of the Germanic languages. I believe Jastorf was part of the Nordic Bronze Age thing and began in the southern neck of the Jutland Peninsula, later spreading south into North Germany and, later, west into East Friesland.

If the Kurgan Theory is correct, then probably mostly U106 and I1 populations were converted to the obvious thrills of IE speech by intrepid and elite R1a Corded Ware Berlitz, Pimsleur, and Rosetta Stone language instructors. ;-)

Oh, I want to avoid the threat of a severe spanking! There could have been some P312 guys involved and no doubt some E1b1bs, some G2s, some Js, and almost anything else. And no doubt all of them got to Ireland very early, probably by 5:00 am at the latest.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 10, 2012, 08:22:08 AM
The really important thing about Proto-Germanic is that it is late (c. 500 BC). We can surmise that IE-speakers were in Scandinavia from the Bronze Age. They probably spoke a dialect of IE little or no different from the IE speakers in Western Europe at that stage. The Bell Beaker Culture spread over a great swathe of Europe and was inter-connected by trade routes and long-distance travel. The people who took Bell Beaker to SW Norway would have been able to talk to the BB people in Portugal, France, etc. and I doubt if they would have had much difficulty chatting with people in the Corded Ware Culture. In the Bronze Age these IE speakers were close to the root of PIE in chronology. To quote myself:

Quote
A language develops within a communicating group. In the days before modern transport and the nation state, a communicating group could not cover a vast territory. The area in which Proto-Germanic evolved was far smaller than the spread of its daughter languages today. We would expect a linguistic boundary to also be a cultural boundary. So the finger points at the Nordic Bronze Age (1730-500 BC) as the cradle of Proto-Germanic. It was a comfortable cradle for many a year. The Nordic Bronze Age began in a welcoming warmth. An earlier climate shift made Southern Scandinavia as warm as present-day central Germany. Groups of people from the widespread Corded Ware and Bell Beaker Cultures had moved north into Jutland and the coasts of what are now Norway and Sweden. There they melded with descendants of the Funnel Beaker and Ertebølle people into a rich Bronze Age culture. The wealth and technical excellence of its bronze objects is impressive. Trade was important to this society. So was seacraft. Voyages linked Jutland and Scandia in one communicating web.

However the climate gradually deteriorated, bringing increasingly wetter and colder times to Jutland, culminating in so steep a decline in the decades around 700 BC that much agricultural land was abandoned and bog built up. Pollen history reveals a similar picture in Southern Sweden. Around 500 BC forest encroached on areas that had long been farmland. Meanwhile an influence from eastern Sweden reached the southern Baltic shores in the Late Bronze Age, providing a clue to where some of the Scandinavian farmers were going.

Scandinavia was not utterly deserted in this period. Hunters and fishermen could survive where farming failed. Farming continued on some dry ridges, but it seems that many farmers shifted southward. If pre-Proto-Germanic-speakers began spilling south out of Jutland, they would soon encounter the iron-working Celts expanding northwards. The Jastorf Culture seems to be the result. This was an Iron Age culture in what is now north Germany c. 600-0 BC. Though clearly evolving out of the Nordic Bronze Age, elements of the (Celtic) Halstatt Culture are detectable. This was probably the time in which Proto-Germanic borrowed the Celtic words for "iron" and "king".

So Proto-Germanic in the end was crafted out of crisis. It seems that its final development was in the compact region of the Jastorf Culture. But by the time Tactitus wrote, Germania was far larger. The border between the Roman Empire and Germania was the river Rhine. An expanding language tends to split into dialects, as the spread becomes too wide for constant communication. Eventually these dialects develop into separate languages.



Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 10, 2012, 08:38:10 AM
The 1000 BC Urnfield gravesite near Hannover was a combination of I / U106 / R1a men.

Actually we don't know for sure. SNPS were not tested. The STRs were predicted to be those haplogroups by Dirk Schweitzer, Lichtenstein Cave Data Analysis (http://dirkschweitzer.net/LichtensteinCaveAnalysis0804DS.pdf) (2008), but doubts were expressed by various people, so I ended up more cautious in my aDNA table.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 10, 2012, 09:15:38 AM
If the Kurgan Theory is correct, then probably mostly U106 and I1 populations were converted to the obvious thrills of IE speech by intrepid and elite R1a Corded Ware Berlitz, Pimsleur, and Rosetta Stone language instructors. ;-)

Since Gimbutas hadn't heard of R1a1 in the 1950s, I take it that you refer to the "Parochial interpretation of the Kurgan Theory" that made a sudden appearance on another thread. I'd no idea what this meant, but I think I see the light now. This is code for the ravings of Rah-Rah-R1a1arians, yes? All very tiresome, but I can't think why anyone is taking them seriously.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 10, 2012, 10:49:07 AM
The great Italian-Greek poet Ugo Foscolo, who was a genius, didn’t like the famous poet Vincenzo Monti, who was popular but not genial, reproving him for not knowing Ancient Greek and having used for his famous translation of Iliad a previous translation...
If you'd like to start a new topic, fine, but let's stick to this one here. Grazie.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 10, 2012, 10:52:08 AM
The proto Germanic urmheit is north Jutland / southern Sweden.
How do you know that?

U106 and R1a carry their pre-proto-Germanic from the NW Black Sea to the SW Baltic perhaps as the Globular Amphora culture, encountering haplogroup I resistance and language influence.
How do you know this?


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: gtc on April 10, 2012, 11:14:38 AM
Rah-Rah-R1a1arians

I like that.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 10, 2012, 11:54:14 AM
If the Kurgan Theory is correct, then probably mostly U106 and I1 populations were converted to the obvious thrills of IE speech by intrepid and elite R1a Corded Ware Berlitz, Pimsleur, and Rosetta Stone language instructors. ;-)

Since Gimbutas hadn't heard of R1a1 in the 1950s, I take it that you refer to the "Parochial interpretation of the Kurgan Theory" that made a sudden appearance on another thread. I'd no idea what this meant, but I think I see the light now. This is code for the ravings of Rah-Rah-R1a1arians, yes? All very tiresome, but I can't think why anyone is taking them seriously.
Yes, the Kurgan Theory of Gimbutas has no mention of Y haplogroups. David Anthony's PIE homeland and expansion theories also have no mention of Y haplogroups.

Perhaps we should refer to the association of R1a with Kurgans and IE as Anatole Klyosov's R1a theory.  Spencer Wells can probably take some credit as well.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 10, 2012, 12:17:16 PM
The really important thing about Proto-Germanic is that it is late (c. 500 BC)....
Quote from: Jean M
A language develops within a communicating group. In the days before modern transport and the nation state, a communicating group could not cover a vast territory. The area in which Proto-Germanic evolved was far smaller than the spread of its daughter languages today. We would expect a linguistic boundary to also be a cultural boundary. So the finger points at the Nordic Bronze Age (1730-500 BC) as the cradle of Proto-Germanic. It was a comfortable cradle for many a year. The Nordic Bronze Age began in a welcoming warmth. An earlier climate shift made Southern Scandinavia as warm as present-day central Germany. Groups of people from the widespread Corded Ware and Bell Beaker Cultures had moved north into Jutland and the coasts of what are now Norway and Sweden. There they melded with descendants of the Funnel Beaker and Ertebølle people into a rich Bronze Age culture. The wealth and technical excellence of its bronze objects is impressive. Trade was important to this society. So was seacraft.Voyages linked Jutland and Scandia in one communicating web.
....
So Proto-Germanic in the end was crafted out of crisis. It seems that its final development was in the compact region of the Jastorf Culture....

 
Why did NOT more of these fine sea voyagers from Scandinavia make it to the British Isles (at least the U106 portion of them) during the Nordic Bronze Age?

An additional question relates to the Germanic homeland. I realize that the weather was good in Scandinavia during the Nordic Bronze Age, circa 1200 BC to 500 BC, but I don't think the weather was exceptionally bad in the German plains during that time.    Why pick the Nordic Bronze Age territory as the homeland versus points south?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_German_Plain

Quote from: Wikipedia
The Jastorf culture is an Iron Age material culture in what is now north Germany, spanning the 6th to 1st centuries BC, forming the southern part of the Pre-Roman Iron Age. The culture evolved out of the Nordic Bronze Age, through influence from the Halstatt culture farther south. The cultures of the Pre-Roman Iron Age are sometimes hypothesized to be the origin of the Germanic languages.

I agree that there were some IE speakers in Scandinavia during the Nordic Bronze Age. How do we know where the main group of pre-Germanic IE speakers were?    Could they have been a segment of Halstatt? or something else from the south/southeast of the initial Jastorf territory?

The reason I ask these things relates to possible alignments with Y haplogroups.  P312 could have been the early IE speakers in Scandinavia with U106 coming later, from the south.  This would fit better with diversity patterns and the lack of U106 in Britain, and apparently in the Nordwestblock in early periods (pre-Frisian/Anglo-Saxon era.)  Of course, P312 seems to be of pre-Celtic/pre-Italic dialects so .....

Is it possible or probable that pre-Germanic IE speakers really come from the Northern German Plains or even slightly south?  Possibly where some early U106 folks were.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 10, 2012, 12:19:32 PM
Perhaps we should refer to the association of R1a with Kurgans and IE as Anatole Klyosov's R1a theory.  Spencer Wells can probably take some credit as well.

The association of R1a with kurgans is a proven fact. Ancient DNA has been taken from kurgans (the burial mounds on the steppe) and found to be R1a. The wild notions of various parties built onto that fact are a quite different matter, and "Parochial interpretation of the Kurgan Theory" seems fine to me.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 10, 2012, 12:43:56 PM
 Why pick the Nordic Bronze Age territory as the homeland versus points south?

The key idea is the communicating group. Language evolution goes on within that group of people regularly talking to each other. National borders did not operate then. But cultural barriers (sometimes based on geography) did. Linguists have looked for a long-standing cultural barrier that could have generated a language split between the region heading for Celtic and the region heading (ultimately, a long way down the line) for Germanic. The Nordic Bronze Age seemed to fit that bill - as a starting point for dialect development. The weather only comes into this as an explanation for the yo-yo movement in and out of Scandinavia. The Jastorf Culture was clearly the result of farmers from the Nordic Bronze Age moving south onto the North European Plain and meeting up with the Halstatt Culture.

Then from the Jastorf area we can track movements in all directions, including back into Scandinavia, that fit the linguistic break-up of Proto-Germanic into daughter languages.  

Where exactly U106 figures in this story I don't know.  It could have been an early mover into Scandinavia in the Bronze Age, or it could have cropped up in the North European Plain and got absorbed by Jastorf.  Can you really work this out? Wow!


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 10, 2012, 12:48:56 PM
.... The Jastorf Culture was clearly the result of farmers from the Nordic Bronze Age moving south onto the North European Plain and meeting up with the Halstatt Culture.

Then from the Jastorph area we can track movements in all directions, including back into Scandinavia, that fit the linguistic break-up of Proto-Germanic into daughter languages. ...
I think it is safe to assume the Halstatt culture was IE speaking. Can the same assumption be made safely about the farmers from the Nordic Bronze Age?

Is there a strong early influence of Balto-Slavic words on proto-Germanic? Are there any remnants of non-IE languages from the Nordic Bronze Age?

Perhaps R1a and P312 brought IE to Scandinavia and I1 folks, then U106 joined into the final formation with Jastorf, that then expanded up the Jutland and across the strait as well as a hard push straight east across Frisia and finally into England.  ???


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 10, 2012, 01:03:00 PM
think it is safe to assume the Halstatt culture was IE speaking. Can the same assumption be made safely about the farmers from the Nordic Bronze Age?

Why not?

Quote
Is there a strong early influence of Balto-Slavic words on proto-Germanic?

Proto-Germanic has proved a knotty problem to linguists, because of the complexity of its connections to other IE languages. This is discussed by Ringe, Warnow and Taylor 2002 (http://www.cs.rice.edu/~nakhleh/CPHL/RWT02.pdf),  pp. 110-1: The problem of Germanic. They conclude that the ancestor dialect was originally a near sister to Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian. In other words the people who eventually spoke it had remained in the rump of IE after the departure of those who went on to develop Celtic, etc. Later on in the development of Proto-Germanic (after its departure from the IE homeland)  there was intensive contact with Celtic.  

Quote
Perhaps R1a and P312 brought IE to Scandinavia and I1 folks, then U106 joined into the final formation with Jastorf, that then expanded up the Jutland and across the strait as well as a hard push straight east across Frisia and finally into England.  ???

That is what I meant by the possibility that U106 was in the north European Plain and absorbed by Jastorf. But I'm not sure that we can tell that at the moment.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 10, 2012, 01:07:30 PM
.... The Jastorf Culture was clearly the result of farmers from the Nordic Bronze Age moving south onto the North European Plain and meeting up with the Halstatt Culture.

Then from the Jastorph area we can track movements in all directions, including back into Scandinavia, that fit the linguistic break-up of Proto-Germanic into daughter languages. ...
I think it is safe to assume the Halstatt culture was IE speaking. Can the same assumption be made safely about the farmers from the Nordic Bronze Age?

Is there a strong early influence of Balto-Slavic words on proto-Germanic? Are there any remnants of non-IE languages from the Nordic Bronze Age?

Perhaps R1a and P312 brought IE to Scandinavia and I1 folks, then U106 joined into the final formation with Jastorf, that then expanded up the Jutland and across the strait as well as a hard push straight east across Frisia and finally into England.  ???

I believe its usually assumed the Nordic Bronze Age was IE but the sound shifts that made it Germanic didnt happen until the end of it c. 500BC when the successor cultures of the Iron Age like Jastorf emerged.  I am no expert but it was for long held that Germanic especially displays some sort of non-IE substrate.

I would think any theory that had P312 and U106 not being from the same language family at least would be hard to believe.  I think we should bear in mind that only one Corded Ware sample is known (R1a) and while that is clear positive evidence it is hopeless in terms of negative evidence proving the absence of anything else.  If we had 5 or 6 samples from a separate sites of one culture then we could maybe infer something but one sample proves nothing in terms of absence.  Mike - I understand variance of U106 is not high in Scandinavia etc.  Is this also true of p312 and subclades?  Does variance suggest which R1b clades are earliest in the Germanic area (ie. Scandinavia, north Germany, Holland)?


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 10, 2012, 01:24:35 PM
I think it is safe to assume the Halstatt culture was IE speaking. Can the same assumption be made safely about the farmers from the Nordic Bronze Age?

Why not?
That tells me the answer - no, because (this only in reference to myself not you) but when we assume we get -  ass/u/me.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 10, 2012, 01:35:27 PM
@ Mikewww

Neat! :)  

I was tempted to give the standard caveat that we cannot assume anything, but just wondered why you thought one a safer assumption than the other. If we start from the presumption that the Copper/Bronze Age is the best bet for the spread of Indo-European languages, because of the remarkable degree of cultural unity in Europe in that period, then that fits the Nordic Bronze Age as well as the rest of the European Bronze Age. Both before and after the Bronze Age there was much more of a patchwork of cultures - not the sort of situation conducive to the spread over the whole continent of a new language family.  


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 10, 2012, 02:38:52 PM
.... The Jastorf Culture was clearly the result of farmers from the Nordic Bronze Age moving south onto the North European Plain and meeting up with the Halstatt Culture.

Then from the Jastorph area we can track movements in all directions, including back into Scandinavia, that fit the linguistic break-up of Proto-Germanic into daughter languages. ...
I think it is safe to assume the Halstatt culture was IE speaking. Can the same assumption be made safely about the farmers from the Nordic Bronze Age?

Is there a strong early influence of Balto-Slavic words on proto-Germanic? Are there any remnants of non-IE languages from the Nordic Bronze Age?

Perhaps R1a and P312 brought IE to Scandinavia and I1 folks, then U106 joined into the final formation with Jastorf, that then expanded up the Jutland and across the strait as well as a hard push straight east across Frisia and finally into England.  ???

I believe its usually assumed the Nordic Bronze Age was IE but the sound shifts that made it Germanic didnt happen until the end of it c. 500BC when the successor cultures of the Iron Age like Jastorf emerged.  I am no expert but it was for long held that Germanic especially displays some sort of non-IE substrate.

I would think any theory that had P312 and U106 not being from the same language family at least would be hard to believe.  I think we should bear in mind that only one Corded Ware sample is known (R1a) and while that is clear positive evidence it is hopeless in terms of negative evidence proving the absence of anything else.  If we had 5 or 6 samples from a separate sites of one culture then we could maybe infer something but one sample proves nothing in terms of absence.  Mike - I understand variance of U106 is not high in Scandinavia etc.  Is this also true of p312 and subclades?  Does variance suggest which R1b clades are earliest in the Germanic area (ie. Scandinavia, north Germany, Holland)?

What got me started on this is that U106 in England and the Low Countries have about the same variance as in Scandinavia. If U106 in was part of the original formation of proto-Germanic and pre-Germanic came from Scandinavia I'd expect U106 to have higher variance there.  I'd also expect more U106 in the British Isles early on with Nordic Bronze Age sea voyagers.

Nordic 49 STR relative variance.

Z196__________:  Var=1.13 (N=7)
P312xL21______:  Var=1.04 (N=35)
U106__________:  Var=0.91 (N=51)
L21___________:  Var=0.82 (N=30)


The Z196 sample is pretty low so I'm not sure what to make of that. I think potentially Z196 and P312* in Scandinavia are older than anything else, R1b wise (along with R-L11*, R-L23*.)

Here is a link to the Old Norway Project haplogroup map from Dr. Harding's presentation.
http://www.4shared.com/photo/4wJX65Jk/Old_Norway_Project_y_Hg_map.html

There is a definite pattern that U106 is stronger in Denmark and South Sweden and P312 is stronger as you go north into Sweden and then west into Norway.

The indicators are that U106 maybe more of the "Northern Plains" part of Jastorf rather than "Scandinavian."


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Arwunbee on April 10, 2012, 07:51:00 PM
Perhaps R1a and P312 brought IE to Scandinavia and I1 folks, then U106 joined into the final formation with Jastorf, that then expanded up the Jutland and across the strait as well as a hard push straight east across Frisia and finally into England.  ???
Whilst P312 and R1a are bringing IE into Scandinavia, where exactly is U106 marking time for 4000 years?


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Arwunbee on April 10, 2012, 07:54:47 PM
The proto Germanic urmheit is north Jutland / southern Sweden.
How do you know that?
I read wikipedia on proto Germanic.  It says it there.  I assumed you read that article before starting this thread.
U106 and R1a carry their pre-proto-Germanic from the NW Black Sea to the SW Baltic perhaps as the Globular Amphora culture, encountering haplogroup I resistance and language influence.
Quote from: Mikewww
How do you know this?
I was there, back in the day.  Thousands of men marching with a tall, fair haired, blue eyed man holding aloft a banner that read:
[U106 sprichen proto-Deutsche]


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 10, 2012, 08:13:55 PM
If the Kurgan Theory is correct, then probably mostly U106 and I1 populations were converted to the obvious thrills of IE speech by intrepid and elite R1a Corded Ware Berlitz, Pimsleur, and Rosetta Stone language instructors. ;-)

Since Gimbutas hadn't heard of R1a1 in the 1950s, I take it that you refer to the "Parochial interpretation of the Kurgan Theory" that made a sudden appearance on another thread. I'd no idea what this meant, but I think I see the light now. This is code for the ravings of Rah-Rah-R1a1arians, yes? All very tiresome, but I can't think why anyone is taking them seriously.

I was mixing serious stuff with humor, but it has been my experience that by far most of those who are involved in genetic genealogy and who accept the idea that PIE originated on the Pontic-Caspian steppe believe that R1a is the paramount and original PIE y haplogroup. (It is so much easier just to refer to the Pontic-Caspian thing as the "Kurgan Theory".)

Jean, even you have said that R1b learned its PIE at the hands of R1a peoples.

Very few people would derive R1b from the P-C steppe. Mike may be one; Maciamo Hay of Eupedia might be another, but that is about it.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: GoldenHind on April 10, 2012, 08:58:39 PM

Why did NOT more of these fine sea voyagers from Scandinavia make it to the British Isles (at least the U106 portion of them) during the Nordic Bronze Age?



How do we know that they didn't?  As I recall a study of the teeth of Bronze Age remains in England (originally mentioned by Jean if my memory is correct) showed they likely came from Scandinavia.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 10, 2012, 10:30:40 PM
Very few people would derive R1b from the P-C steppe. Mike may be one; Maciamo Hay of Eupedia might be another, but that is about it.
Have you taken a poll?  How do you know?

Have you seen DMXX's maps of R1b in West Asia, east of the Caspian?  If R1b can be east of the Caspian, it can be north or in the Caucasus.

Oh, yes, I almost for forgot....  where is all that R1b-L23*.  Yes, that's right. It's in the Caucasus.  Just south of the steppes in cultures known to be in contact with steppes cultures.

Let's be cautious about assumptions.

I'm not betting that R1b was in the Pontic Steppes with PIE, but I'm not betting against it.  This is more parsimonious that believing R1b "learned" IE from R1a, as Klyosovo would say, in multiple places and times in the edges of Old Europe.

It is also not hard to believe given R1b's ancestry. Where do you think R1 originated?  Wells would put it in what he calls the Central Asia "heartland." Maybe his timing is wrong, but if R1 is from Central Asia why does R1b have to be from Central Europe or Anatolia?


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 10, 2012, 10:33:34 PM

Why did NOT more of these fine sea voyagers from Scandinavia make it to the British Isles (at least the U106 portion of them) during the Nordic Bronze Age?
How do we know that they didn't?  As I recall a study of the teeth of Bronze Age remains in England (originally mentioned by Jean if my memory is correct) showed they likely came from Scandinavia.
I agree that some U106 could be very early (pre-Anglo-Saxon and even pre-Roman) in the Isles, but it does not appear to be much, at the most.

The bulk of U106 in Scandinavia must NOT have been early in Scandinavia or we'd see more where Hiberno-Vikings and Scots-Vikings appearing as U106. I think we are seeing some strains of P312* and L165 as Hiberno/Scot-Vikings, not so much the U106... not that there is no U106 early to the Isles.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 11, 2012, 03:24:56 AM
Jean, even you have said that R1b learned its PIE at the hands of R1a peoples.

Not all over Europe. That's crazy in my view. I have consistently argued that R1b logically must have arrived in the PIE homeland before the development of PIE or during its development, in order for it to be so strongly correlated with IE languages in Europe. I see it as the other half of the IE story, just as you did years ago. The fact that we don't find R1b on the Pontic-Caspian steppe today has never bothered me in the slightest, because the steppe has been a highway with one population change after another since 3000 BC.  It is obvious that in some cases R1b and R1a travelled together. The idea that these were completely separate populations c. 3-4000 BC does not make sense.

Quote
Very few people would derive R1b from the P-C steppe.

I'm not deriving it from the steppe. The M343 mutation occurred many millennia before these events. We don't know where. I've taken a guess that R1 people moved seasonally between the South Caspian and the steppe in the Mesolithic and it just so happened that an R1b man eventually settled on the south side of that route and an R1a man on the north. I could be wrong. But that would explain what we see archaeologically and genetically. R1b could then be caught up in the farming revolution prior to R1a, but make its way to the steppe with dairy farmers c. 5000 BC.  


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 11, 2012, 03:32:51 AM
How do we know that they didn't?  As I recall a study of the teeth of Bronze Age remains in England (originally mentioned by Jean if my memory is correct) showed they likely came from Scandinavia.

Selective memory at work there! I blogged about the study of a group of burials on the Isle of Thanet. The team used isotopic analysis to find out where these people came from. Of the 22 skeletons tested, eight were local, seven were from Scandinavia, probably southern Sweden or Norway, five were from South-West Iberia and the origins of the remaining two could not be identified. Interestingly the earliest phase (Late Bronze) was the most mixed: local, Norse and Iberian. In the Early Iron Age the mixture was local and Iberian. The Middle Iron Age mixed local and Norse. 

I would guess that the Isle of Thanet was a trading post.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Arwunbee on April 11, 2012, 03:43:11 AM
The bulk of U106 in Scandinavia must NOT have been early in Scandinavia or we'd see more where Hiberno-Vikings and Scots-Vikings appearing as U106. I think we are seeing some strains of P312* and L165 as Hiberno/Scot-Vikings, not so much the U106... not that there is no U106 early to the Isles.
Ahhhhh, the old "Bulk of U106 must NOT have been early in Scandinavia or we'd see more U106 Hiberno-Vikings" rule of thumb.








Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 11, 2012, 07:46:01 AM
Very few people would derive R1b from the P-C steppe. Mike may be one; Maciamo Hay of Eupedia might be another, but that is about it.
Have you taken a poll?  How do you know?

I assume you read my entire post. I didn't say "I know" or that I had taken a poll. Here's what I wrote. Please note the part about "my experience".

Quote from: rms2

I was mixing serious stuff with humor, but it has been my experience that by far most of those who are involved in genetic genealogy and who accept the idea that PIE originated on the Pontic-Caspian steppe believe that R1a is the paramount and original PIE y haplogroup. (It is so much easier just to refer to the Pontic-Caspian thing as the "Kurgan Theory".)

Jean, even you have said that R1b learned its PIE at the hands of R1a peoples.

Very few people would derive R1b from the P-C steppe. Mike may be one; Maciamo Hay of Eupedia might be another, but that is about it.

Have you seen DMXX's maps of R1b in West Asia, east of the Caspian?  If R1b can be east of the Caspian, it can be north or in the Caucasus.

Oh, yes, I almost for forgot....  where is all that R1b-L23*.  Yes, that's right. It's in the Caucasus.  Just south of the steppes in cultures known to be in contact with steppes cultures.

Geez. I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was responding to Jean's post.

Besides, just south of the Caucasus is where Anatolia is, not that it matters.

It has been my experience (no polls) that most of those who advocate the Pontic-Caspian Urheimat also believe R1a was the paramount and original PIE y haplogroup. Heck, that is even what Jean believes, at least judging by what she said about intermarriage and Yamnaya mothers teaching their R1b sons to speak PIE. You and Maciamo are the only ones I know of who might derive R1b from the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

At one point I would have done the same, and in the past I have done that. Now I am not so sure, because I haven't seen any sign that R1b came from the steppe. I am not arguing against it; I just don't know.

I now tend to think that R1b and Pre-Proto-Indo-European ("Indo-Hittite") came up into SE Europe from Anatolia and that the steppe peoples acquired their Indo-European from that source.

Let's be cautious about assumptions.

I wasn't aware I was making any. I was speaking of my experience in arguing with people about Indo-European for several years on various dna chat venues.

By far, most of those I have encountered who like the Pontic-Caspian steppe PIE Urheimat make R1a the paramount and original PIE y haplogroup, the Ur-haplogroup, if you will.

That is why I quit posting at Eupedia. It was getting sickening.

I'm not betting that R1b was in the Pontic Steppes with PIE, but I'm not betting against it.  This is more parsimonious that believing R1b "learned" IE from R1a, as Klyosovo would say, in multiple places and times in the edges of Old Europe.

It is also not hard to believe given R1b's ancestry. Where do you think R1 originated?  Wells would put it in what he calls the Central Asia "heartland."  Maybe his timing is wrong, but if R1 is from Central Asia why does R1b have to be from Central Europe or Anatolia?

I agree that R1 probably originated in Central Asia.

I don't know that R1b originated in Anatolia, and I am caring less and less as each day and each redundant PIE thread passes.

I already said on that other IE thread why I think an early form of IE ("Indo-Hittite") came out of Anatolia into SE Europe with R1b. No need to repeat that here.

But I don't know that it did, and I don't even think I know or that I am even close to knowing.

One thing I will admit that troubles me is the Basque language and the chance that something like it was spoken over a wide area of western Europe by a predominantly R1b population in the distant past, before Indo-European arrived. If that is the case, it would seem to militate against R1b as the original vector of the Indo-European languages.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing for that. I'm just being honest and openly stating my misgivings.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 11, 2012, 08:04:30 AM
Jean, even you have said that R1b learned its PIE at the hands of R1a peoples.

Not all over Europe. That's crazy in my view. I have consistently argued that R1b logically must have arrived in the PIE homeland before the development of PIE or during its development, in order for it to be so strongly correlated with IE languages in Europe. I see it as the other half of the IE story, just as you did years ago. The fact that we don't find R1b on the Pontic-Caspian steppe today has never bothered me in the slightest, because the steppe has been a highway with one population change after another since 3000 BC.  It is obvious that in some cases R1b and R1a travelled together. The idea that these were completely separate populations c. 3-4000 BC does not make sense.

The point is not that you involve R1b in PIE very early on but that part of your adherence to the Pontic-Caspian Urheimat involves making R1a the Ur-haplogroup, so to speak.

If you think the original speakers of PIE could have been R1b, then please say so and clear that up for me. You did mention R1b sons learning PIE from Yamnaya mothers. Would the maternal grandfathers of those R1b sons likely have been R1a?

Quote
Very few people would derive R1b from the P-C steppe.

I'm not deriving it from the steppe. The M343 mutation occurred many millennia before these events. We don't know where. I've taken a guess that R1 people moved seasonally between the South Caspian and the steppe in the Mesolithic and it just so happened that an R1b man eventually settled on the south side of that route and an R1a man on the north. I could be wrong. But that would explain what we see archaeologically and genetically. R1b could then be caught up in the farming revolution prior to R1a, but make its way to the steppe with dairy farmers c. 5000 BC.  

Sigh . . .

I and many others here use "R1b" as shorthand for whatever form its descendants had taken by the time under consideration. I am not so grossly stupid as to have intended "R1b" in this case literally as M343. It's just a lot easier to write "R1b" than to go through all the other possible long descriptors, descriptors that are constantly being updated and changed. Besides, if one writes "R-L23", he invites lengthy side arguments about whether it was R-L23 at that time or already R-L11 or maybe just plain R-M269.
 
The same goes for my use of "R1a".

By deriving R1b from the steppe, I meant the R1b immediately (or nearly immediately) ancestral to most of the stuff currently being carried around by a majority of the males in western Europe or of western European ancestry. I did not mean that you or Mike or anyone else believes R1b (literally, M343) was actually born on the steppe.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: authun on April 11, 2012, 08:31:47 AM
As I recall, Mallory's book, In Search of the Indo-Europeans, associates the Jastorf and Harpstedt cultures with the beginnings of the Germanic languages. I believe Jastorf was part of the Nordic Bronze Age thing and began in the southern neck of the Jutland Peninsula, later spreading south into North Germany and, later, west into East Friesland.

Whilst the Jastorf Culture remains a possibility, Harpstedt-Nienburg is now seen as one represented by a number of highly mobile groups showing some aspects of both the celtic and germanic worlds, probably through contact. These groups tend to create settlements which last one to two generations after which they are dismantled and the group moves further to the west. We don't know what their language was.

Belonging to this group is the Schnippenburg, http://www.schnippenburg.de/index.php?id=72 (http://www.schnippenburg.de/index.php?id=72). The distinctive type of house is known to migrate from east to west, http://eisenzeithaus.de/wb/pages/de/infos.php?lang=DE (http://eisenzeithaus.de/wb/pages/de/infos.php?lang=DE).


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 11, 2012, 08:59:16 AM
The bulk of U106 in Scandinavia must NOT have been early in Scandinavia or we'd see more where Hiberno-Vikings and Scots-Vikings appearing as U106. I think we are seeing some strains of P312* and L165 as Hiberno/Scot-Vikings, not so much the U106... not that there is no U106 early to the Isles.
Ahhhhh, the old "Bulk of U106 must NOT have been early in Scandinavia or we'd see more U106 Hiberno-Vikings" rule of thumb.
I don't why you would call that statement a "rule of thumb."

All I'm saying is that if you add the data together, I don't think U106 was the first R1b in the Isles. It appears that a likely time is with the Jastorf expansions up until the time of the Anglo-Saxon Era.

The data points are:
1. STR variance is higher for other forms of R1b in the Scandinavia than for U106.
2. Other forms of R1b in the Isles, i.e. P312's L165, are connected with Norse Vikings and in appear in Scandinavia too. I don't know of any U106 in the Isles that hits the northern coasts and isles where Vikings were known frequent and Anglo-Saxons were not.
3. Other forms of R1b in the Isles become the more predominant type as you go north and west.
4. STR variance for U106 in Scandinavia is about the same as in the Isles, inferring their arrival times in those two locations should be about the same.

Do you have evidence that U106 was in Scandinavia before the Jastorf?


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 11, 2012, 09:15:24 AM
As I recall, Mallory's book, In Search of the Indo-Europeans, associates the Jastorf and Harpstedt cultures with the beginnings of the Germanic languages. I believe Jastorf was part of the Nordic Bronze Age thing and began in the southern neck of the Jutland Peninsula, later spreading south into North Germany and, later, west into East Friesland.

Whilst the Jastorf Culture remains a possibility, Harpstedt-Nienburg is now seen as one represented by a number of highly mobile groups showing some aspects of both the celtic and germanic worlds, probably through contact. These groups tend to create settlements which last one to two generations after which they are dismantled and the group moves further to the west. We don't know what their language was.

Belonging to this group is the Schnippenburg, http://www.schnippenburg.de/index.php?id=72 (http://www.schnippenburg.de/index.php?id=72). The distinctive type of house is known to migrate from east to west, http://eisenzeithaus.de/wb/pages/de/infos.php?lang=DE (http://eisenzeithaus.de/wb/pages/de/infos.php?lang=DE).

What about the Pomeranian Culture? Do we have any information on what languages they spoke? or any impact they might have had on the formation of the proto-Germanic speakers?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranian_culture

The reason I ask is U106's variance in Poland is higher than in Germany, England or Scandinavia. For that matter, variance is higher in Poland than points south of Germany/Poland (Austria, Italy, Slovenia, Slovakia, Czech Rep, Switzerland).

I don't think the STR variance is conclusive, but if this reflects age then U106's movement into Northern Europe may align more with David Anthony's hypothesis of pre-Germanic IE moving north and west along the east side of the Carpathians towards Germany.  In Anthony's model this was a result of the Usatovo merger with the Cucuteni-Tripolye.  

The implication is some forms Hg I and R1a may have come with the U106, which actually makes some sense too. They might have met up with some forms of P312 and I1 as they hit the area that would become Jastorf and the Jutland.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 11, 2012, 09:28:28 AM
....One thing I will admit that troubles me is the Basque language and the chance that something like it was spoken over a wide area of western Europe by a predominantly R1b population in the distant past, before Indo-European arrived. If that is the case, it would seem to militate against R1b as the original vector of the Indo-European languages.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing for that. I'm just being honest and openly stating my misgivings.
I wouldn't say that the Euskara language, a non-IE language, spoken by the P312 heavily laden Basque folks is troubling to me, but it clearly allows for a feasible alternative where P312 spoke non-IE languages during its original expansion into Western Europe.

However, there are too many P312 people (as the dominant hg) speaking IE languages spread all over Europe that Euskara speakers should "outweigh" the rest in the arguments.

My guess is that by the time PIE was forming, R1b was multi-lingual in the Near East, perhaps North Africa, Anatolia and the Caucasus.  Some of these R1b people must have mixed in with the groups as or before PIE was fully formed.  This is where the R1b-L11 family must have been... right in that action, but that doesn't mean R1b-L11 wasn't multi-lingual. We know the Caucasus has a variety of languages.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 11, 2012, 09:51:10 AM
The point is not that you involve R1b in PIE very early on but that part of your adherence to the Pontic-Caspian Urheimat involves making R1a the Ur-haplogroup, so to speak. .. If you think the original speakers of PIE could have been R1b, then please say so and clear that up for me.

There are a number of scenarios that might explain the fact that both R1a1a and R1b-M269 are correlated with IE languages and lactase persistence.
 
  • R1b and R1a were on the steppe from the Mesolithic. The geographic split may have been between R1b1a settling on the steppe and R1b1c going south from the Caspian into the heartland of the Neolithic. In that case the east-west pattern could simply have been  formed by the coincidence of where two men decided to camp.
  • R1b-M269 entered the steppe from the Maikop Culture. Certainly we have evidence that some Maikop people were absorbed into Yamnaya when Maikop collapsed. Among the new Bell Beaker papers is one by Kristiansen suggesting that PIE was brought to the steppe by the Maikop. I don't buy that for chronological and linguistic reasons. PIE bears all the signs of birth around the Urals, and the ancestor of Tocharian left before the remnants of Maikop took refuge in Yamnaya.
  • R1b-M269 entered the steppe from the west with dairy farming via the Cucuteni Culture (c. 5500 BC +). This would explain the importation of lactase persistence, which also seems to have flowed up the Danube into the TRB and so probably had its origin in the dairy farmers around the lower Danube. We have plenty of archaeological evidence of the crash of the Cucuteni Culture c. 4000 BC and melding of its remnants with the steppe cultures to create Yamnaya c. 3,300 BC. The logical problem of the Basques - high in R1b and lactase persistence and speaking a Copper Age language - would be resolved if they were descendants of some of the refugees from Cucuteni, moving west c. 4000 BC.      

Scenarios that can be ruled out: anything that requires having carriers of these haplogroups set off on their IE-spreading journeys from totally different points at different times, having never met and mixed. That simply won't work. They had to mix to spread lactase persistence.  They had to mix to share a language. They travelled together along many routes. Their homeland was certainly one and the same by the time of the fully-fledged Yamnaya Culture, but the east end of that homeland was strong in R1a1a and the west end strong in R1b-M269+, to judge by end results. We know that R1a1a was in steppe kurgans in a chronological sequence of related cultures from Andronovo to Iranian-speaking Scythians. So that fits the IE steppe homeland.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 11, 2012, 10:14:35 AM
Whilst the Jastorf Culture remains a possibility, Harpstedt-Nienburg is now seen as one represented by a number of highly mobile groups showing some aspects of both the celtic and germanic worlds, probably through contact.

Lovely reconstruction. Thanks for that. I would assume that this group is part of the story of Germani moving west.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 11, 2012, 10:19:40 AM

What about the Pomeranian Culture? Do we have any information on what languages they spoke?

The Pomerarian Face-Urn Culture is derived from Urnfield, but shows Etruscan influences. See Iron Age Cimmerians and Celts (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ironage.shtml). We don't know what language they spoke  - most likely some form of IE that is long gone, submerged under later IE linguistic waves. 


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: authun on April 11, 2012, 10:32:47 AM
What about the Pomeranian Culture? Do we have any information on what languages they spoke? or any impact they might have had on the formation of the proto-Germanic speakers?

Nothing firm. Andre Martinet thinks they spoke a venetic language, http://tinyurl.com/4ymcgp (http://tinyurl.com/4ymcgp)

Wiki also has a page about the Vistula Veneti, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti)


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 11, 2012, 10:56:54 AM
Only problem there is that there is no such thing as a Venetic language. The Vistula Veneti appear to have been Balts. Certainly Gimbutas thought that the Pomerarian Face-Urn Culture represented the Western Balts. Polish authors have argued that it was (surprise, surprise) Slavic, while German authors have (surprise, surprise) ... well you can guess.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 11, 2012, 12:41:59 PM
Only problem there is that there is no such thing as a Venetic language. The Vistula Veneti appear to have been Balts. Certainly Gimbutas thought that the Pomerarian Face-Urn Culture represented the Western Balts. Polish authors have argued that it was (surprise, surprise) Slavic, while German authors have (surprise, surprise) ... well you can guess.

Since I know you know that Venetic (close links to Latin) was spoken by the Veneti in Veneto, you mean there was no such language in the Baltic?


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: authun on April 11, 2012, 12:45:33 PM
... there is no such thing as a Venetic language The Vistula Veneti appear to have been Balts.

There are about 300 inscriptions Jean.

If you believe that we know all the indo european languages that existed and that the ten documented branches of the indo european tree explain all we know today, you can say that there was no such thing as venetic. However if we include the other languages known from inscriptions but otherwise not classified, eg. venetic, macedonian, phrygian, thracian, messapic, paeonian etc. we end up with more data, even if we cannot be sure of where it will take us. Before you dismiss a language like venetic as non existent, you should be aware of the tenuous nature of the evidence for its classification as an italic language.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 11, 2012, 12:58:46 PM
Since I know you know that Venetic (close links to Latin) was spoken by the Veneti in Veneto, you mean there was no such language in the Baltic?

Yep. People have made too much of the coincidence of name. There are three widely separated areas of Europe in which tribes named Veneti were noted in the Roman period: Gaul, NE Italy and the Vistula. There is no link between them, except the rather strained idea that the Etruscan goods traded into the Pomeranian Face-Urn Culture indicate a link with the Italian Veneti.

Then we have the confusion that Jordanes says the Slavs issued from the Veneti. I ended up concluding that both Slavs and Balts could have been called Veneti at one point. Both were certainly termed Wends later.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 11, 2012, 01:01:45 PM
... there is no such thing as a Venetic language The Vistula Veneti appear to have been Balts.

There are about 300 inscriptions Jean.

Sorry. Should have been clearer. There certainly are Venetic inscriptions, but not in the Pomeranian Face-Urn Culture or in the area where we can place the Vistula Veneti at a later date.

[Added] Though come to think of it, an origin in the Urnfield Culture would incline towards some Celtic or Italic language. Do we have any place-name evidence?  


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 11, 2012, 02:59:57 PM
Since I know you know that Venetic (close links to Latin) was spoken by the Veneti in Veneto, you mean there was no such language in the Baltic?

Yep. People have made too much of the coincidence of name. There are three widely separated areas of Europe in which tribes named Veneti were noted in the Roman period: Gaul, NE Italy and the Vistula. There is no link between them, except the rather strained idea that the Etruscan goods traded into the Pomeranian Face-Urn Culture indicate a link with the Italian Veneti.

Then we have the confusion that Jordanes says the Slavs issued from the Veneti. I ended up concluding that both Slavs and Balts could have been called Veneti at one point. Both were certainly termed Wends later.

Anyone else think that U106 could have been in the Pomeranian culture which ultimately led to its entrance into the Proto-Germanic group? A corallery could be that the dialects of IE that U106 spoke influenced the formation of Germanic languages.

The predecessor to the Pomeranian culture is the Lusatian culture. Lusatian is stretches (or perhaps originates) to the east, almost into Cucuteni-Trypolae territory.

Bright green on the map>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KulturaLuzycka_1.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture

On this map> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CuTryOutline.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture

The Corded Ware based Trziniec Culture preceded Lusatian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trzciniec_culture

This would fit David Anthony's proposals in "The Horse The Wheel and Language" on p.360
Quote from: David Anthony
I would say that this was how the Proto-Indo-European dialects that would ultimately form the root of the Pre-Germanic first became established in central Europe: they spread up the Dniester from the Usatovo culture through a nested series of patrons and clients, and eventually were spoken in some of the late TRB communities between the Dniester and Vistula. These late TRB communities later evolved into early Corded Ware communities, and it was the Corded Ware horizon that provided the medium through which the Pre-Germanic dialects spread over a wider area.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 11, 2012, 03:33:32 PM
The predecessor to the Pomeranian culture is the Lusatian culture. Lusatian is stretches (or perhaps originates) to the east, almost into Cucuteni-Trypolae territory.

Lusatian is a form of Urnfield (c. 1300 BC – 750 BC). (We are heading into hugely controversial territory here. It was claimed by Polish archaeologists of the Post-War period to be something separate and distinct from Urnfield and the origin of the Slavs. Today's Polish archaeologists don't think so. )

This is a long time after the initial movements of people up the Danube which led to the TRB (4000 BC). Antony is trying to work within the convention that the TRB developed locally into Corded Ware. But the TRB looks like a flight from the Balkans. Anthropologically the TRB people are closest to Balkan Neolithic types and were importing Balkan copper. The Corded Ware Culture seems to be more a result of people moving up other rivers from the steppe. But it is all pretty complex and unresolved.  


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 11, 2012, 04:08:39 PM
The predecessor to the Pomeranian culture is the Lusatian culture. Lusatian is stretches (or perhaps originates) to the east, almost into Cucuteni-Trypolae territory.

Lusatian is a form of Urnfield (c. 1300 BC – 750 BC). (We are heading into hugely controversial territory here. It was claimed by Polish archaeologists of the Post-War period to be something separate and distinct from Urnfield and the origin of the Slavs. Today's Polish archaeologists don't think so. )

This is a long time after the initial movements of people up the Danube which led to the TRB (4000 BC). Antony is trying to work within the convention that the TRB developed locally into Corded Ware. But the TRB looks like a flight from the Balkans. Anthropologically the TRB people are closest to Balkan Neolithic types and were importing Balkan copper. The Corded Ware Culture seems to be more a result of people moving up other rivers from the steppe. But it is all pretty complex and unresolved.  

Can linguists tell if Germanic languages have more in common, base-wise (not word borrowing), with Celtic languages versus Balto-Slavic languages?
I know Germanic is supposed to be Centum and so is Celtic but that doesn't necessarily mean they have a close relationship, right?   Whereas Slavic and Baltic languages both have Satem innovations, and therefore are more recently related right?

I have the similar question as far as the relationship of Euskara to Germanic languages. Does the substrate of Proto-Germanic show any influence from Euskara? I fear we can not tell much about Euskara.



Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 11, 2012, 04:26:36 PM
The predecessor to the Pomeranian culture is the Lusatian culture. Lusatian is stretches (or perhaps originates) to the east, almost into Cucuteni-Trypolae territory.

Lusatian is a form of Urnfield (c. 1300 BC – 750 BC). (We are heading into hugely controversial territory here. It was claimed by Polish archaeologists of the Post-War period to be something separate and distinct from Urnfield and the origin of the Slavs. Today's Polish archaeologists don't think so. )

This is a long time after the initial movements of people up the Danube which led to the TRB (4000 BC). Antony is trying to work within the convention that the TRB developed locally into Corded Ware. But the TRB looks like a flight from the Balkans. Anthropologically the TRB people are closest to Balkan Neolithic types and were importing Balkan copper. The Corded Ware Culture seems to be more a result of people moving up other rivers from the steppe. But it is all pretty complex and unresolved.  

Can linguists tell if Germanic languages have more in common, base-wise (not word borrowing), with Celtic languages versus Balto-Slavic languages?
I know Germanic is supposed to be Centum and so is Celtic but that doesn't necessarily mean they have a close relationship, right?   Whereas Slavic and Baltic languages both have Satem innovations, and therefore are more recently related right?

I have the similar question as far as the relationship of Euskara to Germanic languages. Does the substrate of Proto-Germanic show any influence from Euskara? I fear we can not tell much about Euskara.



There is a wiki page on this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_substrate_hypothesis

There is a school of thought that Germanic has Finno-Ugric substrate but I think the guy Wiik who proposed this is a bit out on a limb


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 11, 2012, 05:04:06 PM

Can linguists tell if Germanic languages have more in common, base-wise (not word borrowing), with Celtic languages versus Balto-Slavic languages? I know Germanic is supposed to be Centum and so is Celtic but that doesn't necessarily mean they have a close relationship, right?

Centum means that the ancestors of the speakers of Celtic and Germanic left the PIE core before the Centum > Satem isogloss took place. In fact they probably spoke much the same kind of IE for a long time. Bear in mind that Germanic is relatively recent. I pointed you to the opinion of Don Ringe et al that the link with Balto-Slavic could have arisen from staying a bit longer in the PIE rump than the ancestors of the Celtic speakers. However Anthony p. 100 shows Germanic breaking away c. 3300 (before Italo-Celtic c. 2800 BC) and having later contacts with Slavic and Celtic.

Quote
Whereas Slavic and Baltic languages both have Satem innovations, and therefore are more recently related right?

They share the Satem isogloss and much more than that. They are recognised to have a common ancestor in Proto-Balto-Slavic.
 
Quote
I have the similar question as far as the relationship of Euskara to Germanic languages. Does the substrate of Proto-Germanic show any influence from Euskara?

This is opening the door to a mass of fringe theories. People have tried to prove links between Euskara and a great array of other languages and/or that a Basque-type of language was spoken all over Europe in the Mesolithic. None of this has been accepted by mainstream linguists such as the late Larry Trask, expert in Euskara. He did admit that there was a legitimate case for a link with PIE (Antonio Tovar argued that the suffix -ko in Basque is so similar in its behaviour to the same suffix reconstructed for PIE that they must have a common origin), but he could make no sense of that, because he assumed that Euskara was a language born in western Europe.  


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: GoldenHind on April 11, 2012, 05:38:18 PM
How do we know that they didn't?  As I recall a study of the teeth of Bronze Age remains in England (originally mentioned by Jean if my memory is correct) showed they likely came from Scandinavia.

Selective memory at work there! I blogged about the study of a group of burials on the Isle of Thanet. The team used isotopic analysis to find out where these people came from. Of the 22 skeletons tested, eight were local, seven were from Scandinavia, probably southern Sweden or Norway, five were from South-West Iberia and the origins of the remaining two could not be identified. Interestingly the earliest phase (Late Bronze) was the most mixed: local, Norse and Iberian. In the Early Iron Age the mixture was local and Iberian. The Middle Iron Age mixed local and Norse. 

I would guess that the Isle of Thanet was a trading post.

Thanks, that is the study to which I referred.  Pardon me if it appeared I was suggesting the analysis showed all the remains were from Scandinavia, as opposed to a large portion of them. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise, but perhaps should have been more precise.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 11, 2012, 05:45:00 PM
For anyone with a serious interest in the origins of Germanic, there is Donald Ringe, From Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Germanic: A Linguistic History of English: Volume I (OUP Oxford 6 Nov 2006), which you can dip into on Amazon. There is a length review of it on Linguist List (http://linguistlist.org/issues/20/20-2558.html). One interesting point:

Quote
The concluding chapter, Proto-Germanic, begins with an introduction to the family of Proto-Germanic language sub-families: East Germanic and Northwest Germanic, which is further divided into North Germanic and West Germanic. In defense of his position that North and West Germanic shared a common ancestor, Ringe goes out on a bit of a limb and says, ''In my opinion the number of significant innovations which North and West Germanic unarguably share, though admittedly small, is large enough to justify positing such a unity. By contrast, the innovations shared by East and North Germanic are extremely few and can have resulted from parallel development, while those supposedly shared by East Germanic and the more southerly dialects of West Germanic are actually shared retentions which prove nothing. That North Germanic is itself a unitary subgroup is completely obvious, as all its dialects shared a long series of innovations, some of them very striking".




Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 11, 2012, 05:51:09 PM
Pardon me if it appeared I was suggesting the analysis showed all the remains were from Scandinavia, as opposed to a large portion of them. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise, but perhaps should have been more precise.

I know that it was the Scandinavian input that really caught your eye! And it is interesting. But for me it is the combination of Iberian and Norse that is really striking, especially if these burials were of an extended family, as has been argued. It really shows the long-distance network created by Bell Beaker. 


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: authun on April 11, 2012, 06:15:23 PM
Can linguists tell if Germanic languages have more in common, base-wise (not word borrowing), with Celtic languages versus Balto-Slavic languages?

Celtic / germanic contact is recent and german appears to get its iron technology related words from celtic, cf, gaulish isarna and german eisen. They don't use latin ferro for example. Archaeologically, this fits in with early iron weapons, celtic first and then german made copies of celtic weapons, adapted though to have larger hand grips etc. Same happens with later roman weapons. Probably, the germanic speakers learned iron working from their celtic neighbours.

Before that, it was a long time before people who were to become celtic speakers had contact with people who were to become germanic speakers. According to some linguists, the pre sami and pre finnic languages borrowed words from pre germanic languages, eg ruovdi, north sami for iron. The root of ruovdi is the same as gives us our word for red. It is from a word which pre germanic speakers used to describe the redish bog iron lumps and is thus only indirectly related to iron in germanic languages:

SaaN ruovdi ‘iron’ (~ Finn. rauta id.) < PS *ruovte < PreS *rawta < PGerm
*raudan- (> Old Norse rauði ‘bog iron ore’) (SSA s.v. rauta)

Some of these words appear in baltic or russian so it is unclear as to where these contact zones were, or the precise order of the contacts, ie who came first. Aikio attempts to date some of the contacts in "On Germanic-Saami contacts and Saami prehistory", http://www.sgr.fi/susa/91/aikio.pdf (http://www.sgr.fi/susa/91/aikio.pdf) but they are complex linguistic arguments and beyond me I'm afraid. The paper includes some baltic borrowings into finnic and sami.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: A.D. on April 12, 2012, 10:01:59 AM
would religion shed any light on the subject? The Greeks, Celts and Germans and others sheared a similar pantheon with different names. The Germans and Celts seem closer in deities but the Celts had Druids (there has been questions as to their role in Celtic society) and the Germans Shamans. I associate the Druids closer to the Temple building West and south and the Rural Shamans with the North and East very crudely. So
 1 was the religion ,names and language already there and adopted and modified by IE, PIE,,etc?
2 Did IE etc bring the religion and adopt pre-existing practices name and so on?
I know the Achaean (linear B) word for cow is the same  is the same as the Irish and Scots the Latin is similar I don't Know about German. 


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: authun on April 12, 2012, 11:21:59 AM
The spread of religion is connected but not necessarily in a direct way. Christianity in western europe didn't come with a massive population movement. Additionally, different religions can hold different names at different levels of importance, eg Jesus Christ is, in Islam, a man, a prophet whereas to Christians Christ is the revalation of God on this earth. Tracking Teshub, Taranis and Thor is therefore not a straightforward process and enough difficulties exist between Wodan and Odin for people to have very different views.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Heber on April 12, 2012, 03:13:57 PM
Did religion come first and then agriculture?

The New Yorker had an interesting article entitled The Sanctuary, about Gobelki Tepe, by Elif Batuman in their December edition.

"Its Turkish name is Göbekli Tepe. It’s estimated to be eleven thousand years old—six and a half thousand years older than the Great Pyramid, about a half thousand years older than the walls of Jericho. The site comprises more than sixty multi-ton T-shaped limestone pillars, most of them engraved with bas-reliefs of dangerous animals. It’s believed to have been built by hunter-gatherers, who used it as a religious sanctuary. Formal religion is supposed to have appeared only after agriculture
The findings at Göbekli Tepe suggest that we have the story backward—that it was actually the need to build a sacred site that first obliged the hunter-gatherers to organize themselves as a workforce, to secure a stable food supply, and eventually to invent agriculture."

"Jared Diamond, the author of “Guns, Germs, and Steel,” considers agriculture to be not just a setback but “the worst mistake in the history of the human race.” In 2006, a cover article in Der Spiegel proposed Göbekli Tepe as the historical site of the Garden of Eden. The theory draws much of its power from a reading of the Fall as an allegory for the shift from hunting-and-gathering to farming."

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/12/19/111219fa_fact_batuman

"Gobelki Tepe is the oldest known example of monumental architecture—the first structure human beings put together that was bigger and more complicated than a hut. When these pillars were erected, so far as we know, nothing of comparable scale existed in the world."

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/gobekli-tepe/mann-text


That area is a desert now unable to support agriculture. At the time it was considered a paradise (Garden of Edan) for hunter gatherers and later farmers. Perhaps is was overfarmed or it is due to climate change.
Here is a link to another commentator which gives further insights into the article:
http://plasticbeatitude.wordpress.com/2011/12/22/the-findings-at-gobekli-tepe-suggest-we-have-the-story-backward/
My question is, when they buried the monuments 8K years ago and moved on, where did these Megalithic builders go to next? The Atlantic Facade?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalith


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: A.D. on April 12, 2012, 04:56:59 PM
I heard about this too, it's interesting the people who built it must have come from far and wide and been able to communicate complex ideas from the start. So did they have a common language at the start develop one?If so did it die out spread or what? Could it even had any bearing on what languages came latter?  I think this also adds weight to the theory that Carnac (Brittany) was built by Mesolithic hunter/gatherers. In fact the term  Mesolithic hunter/gatherers may be inaccurate. 


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Heber on April 12, 2012, 07:03:00 PM
My understanding is that the building of Gobekli Tepe started in the Mesolithic and the pressure to feed the large numbers of pilgrims developed an embryonic form of agriculture. The earliest forms of domesticated grain was found nearby. Gobekli Tepe is on the northern edge of the fertile crescent.

"Over time, Schmidt believes, the need to acquire sufficient food for those who worked and gathered for ceremonies at Göbekli Tepe may have led to the intensive cultivation of wild cereals and the creation of some of the first domestic strains. Indeed, scientists now believe that one center of agriculture arose in southern Turkey—well within trekking distance of Göbekli Tepe—at exactly the time the temple was at its height. Today the closest known wild ancestors of modern einkorn wheat are found on the slopes of Karaca Dağ, a mountain just 60 miles northeast of Göbekli Tepe."

From a DNA point of view, Dienekes positions his "Womb of Nations" centred on the prehistoric site of Gobekli Tepe.

"The Neolithic of West Eurasia started, by most accounts, c. 12 thousand years ago. Its origin was in the area framed by the Armenian Plateau in the north, the Anatolian Plateau in the west, the Zagros Range in the east, and the lowlands of southern Mesopotamia and the Levant in the south. Intriguingly, the prehistoric site of Göbekli Tepe sits right at the center of this important area, in eastern Anatolia/northern Mesopotamia.
If there is a candidate for where the ur-population that became the modern Six lived, the early Neolithic of the Near East is surely it. This hypothesis makes the most sense chronologically, archaeologically, genetically, and geographically."

http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2011/12/womb-of-nations-how-west-eurasians-came.html






Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Bren123 on April 13, 2012, 04:04:22 PM

I am no expert but it was for long held that Germanic especially displays some sort of non-IE substrate.


Would it be possible for you to give examples?


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: authun on April 13, 2012, 06:03:55 PM
Would it be possible for you to give examples?

You can see an overview on the wiki page on the German Substrate Hypothesis, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_substrate_hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_substrate_hypothesis) and there are some references at the bottom.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 17, 2012, 09:41:19 AM
Anyone else think that U106 could have been in the Pomeranian culture which ultimately led to its entrance into the Proto-Germanic group? A corallery could be that the dialects of IE that U106 spoke influenced the formation of Germanic languages.

The predecessor to the Pomeranian culture is the Lusatian culture. Lusatian is stretches (or perhaps originates) to the east, almost into Cucuteni-Trypolae territory.

Bright green on the map>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KulturaLuzycka_1.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture

On this map> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CuTryOutline.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture

The Corded Ware based Trziniec Culture preceded Lusatian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trzciniec_culture

This would fit David Anthony's proposals in "The Horse The Wheel and Language" on p.360
Quote from: David Anthony
I would say that this was how the Proto-Indo-European dialects that would ultimately form the root of the Pre-Germanic first became established in central Europe: they spread up the Dniester from the Usatovo culture through a nested series of patrons and clients, and eventually were spoken in some of the late TRB communities between the Dniester and Vistula. These late TRB communities later evolved into early Corded Ware communities, and it was the Corded Ware horizon that provided the medium through which the Pre-Germanic dialects spread over a wider area.

Unfortunately, few of us (at least me) don't have a great grasp across all of the new subclades by haplogroup. I'm convinced we could connect a few more dots if we did.

Jean M posted some remarks from Ken Nordtvedt on her "Story of I" article.  She was referring to this from Rootsweb.
Quote from: Ken Nordtvedt
I1-AS1 is the bulk of L338+ and probably is the most Netherlands-oriented clade I have ever seen. But its companion I1-AS8, also L338+ has members with origins somewhat more to the east --- perhaps Pomerania would be a fair description of its center of gravity. Given the 2000 year age for both these clades, coupled with the geography, my guess is that the expansion of these clades is associated with what came to be known as the Saxon peoples

Perhaps I1-AS8 and L338 were integrated with U106 in the Pomeranian culture (now Poland) before merging into or initiating the Jastorf culture... then moving at a fairly late time into Low Countries and the upper Jutland before jumping across to England and up to the Scandinavian Peninsula.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Arwunbee on April 18, 2012, 03:29:15 AM
So, trying to understand here, you say there was a roughly simultaneous movement of a U106/I1 group from Jastorf:

> SW to England; and
> N to Scandinavia?


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: authun on April 18, 2012, 02:50:51 PM
So, trying to understand here, you say there was a roughly simultaneous movement of a U106/I1 group from Jastorf:

> SW to England; and
> N to Scandinavia?

No, what is being discussed is where did the germanic language originate, in Scandinavia or in Jastorf? Either of these popular hypotheses predate the later movements.

Germanic language and culture builds up somewhere in the north and then expands southwards during the migration period. The interesting question has always been where in the north did it develop, and at what time?

In Scandinavia for example we have the rock art of the pastoralists, showing reindeer herds for example, here with fences,

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/AltaRockCarvingsFences.jpg/220px-AltaRockCarvingsFences.jpg)

Later, this rock art records the arrival of new peoples, by boats, who use axes and chariots and who are sun worshippers;

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/Tanumshede_2005_rock_carvings_5.jpg/300px-Tanumshede_2005_rock_carvings_5.jpg)

The question is, are these people the people who later developed into speakers of the germanic language and, if so, where did they come from or were they later overun by germanic speakers from Jastorf?

Given Tacitus' comment that Germania was not the homeland of the Germani and that they arrived there by boat, I tend to think that the germanic language developed in Scandinavia and migrated south. Where those people in the bronze age came from, is a separate question, not from Jastorf though, in my opinion.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 18, 2012, 03:58:22 PM
So, trying to understand here, you say there was a roughly simultaneous movement of a U106/I1 group from Jastorf:

> SW to England; and
> N to Scandinavia?

No, what is being discussed is where did the germanic language originate, in Scandinavia or in Jastorf? Either of these popular hypotheses predate the later movements.

Germanic language and culture builds up somewhere in the north and then expands southwards during the migration period. The interesting question has always been where in the north did it develop, and at what time?

In Scandinavia for example we have the rock art of the pastoralists, showing reindeer herds for example, here with fences,

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/AltaRockCarvingsFences.jpg/220px-AltaRockCarvingsFences.jpg)

Later, this rock art records the arrival of new peoples, by boats, who use axes and chariots and who are sun worshippers;

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/Tanumshede_2005_rock_carvings_5.jpg/300px-Tanumshede_2005_rock_carvings_5.jpg)

The question is, are these people the people who later developed into speakers of the germanic language and, if so, where did they come from or were they later overun by germanic speakers from Jastorf?

Given Tacitus' comment that Germania was not the homeland of the Germani and that they arrived there by boat, I tend to think that the germanic language developed in Scandinavia and migrated south. Where those people in the bronze age came from, is a separate question, not from Jastorf though, in my opinion.

There are well documented similarities with the Valcamonica rock art from northern Italy. Boats, sun worshipers, weapons, deer, etc. all there. Always of interest to me, look at page 153 in this Valcamonica document:

http://unicatt.academia.edu/AngeloEugenioFossati/Papers/659220/Valcamonica_a_world_heritage_view (http://unicatt.academia.edu/AngeloEugenioFossati/Papers/659220/Valcamonica_a_world_heritage_view)

That is none other than the stag-god "Cernunnos", also of Gundestrup cauldron fame.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Arwunbee on April 18, 2012, 07:14:41 PM
So, trying to understand here, you say there was a roughly simultaneous movement of a U106/I1 group from Jastorf:

> SW to England; and
> N to Scandinavia?

No, what is being discussed is where did the germanic language originate, in Scandinavia or in Jastorf? Either of these popular hypotheses predate the later movements.

My question was referring to the premise behind the scenario put forth by previous poster Mike.www.com, who said this about a merged I1/U106 Jastorf people:

"moving at a fairly late time into Low Countries and the upper Jutland before jumping across to England and up to the Scandinavian Peninsula."

So I repeat my question, to www.mike.com:

So, trying to understand here, you say there was a roughly simultaneous movement of a U106/I1 group from Jastorf:

> SW to England; and
> N to Scandinavia?

During the volkswagen movements I thought there was a general push from southern Scandinavia towards the south; not from the north German plain to southern Scandinavia.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: GoldenHind on April 18, 2012, 07:43:49 PM
So, trying to understand here, you say there was a roughly simultaneous movement of a U106/I1 group from Jastorf:

> SW to England; and
> N to Scandinavia?

No, what is being discussed is where did the germanic language originate, in Scandinavia or in Jastorf? Either of these popular hypotheses predate the later movements.

My question was referring to the premise behind the scenario put forth by previous poster Mike.www.com, who said this about a merged I1/U106 Jastorf people:

"moving at a fairly late time into Low Countries and the upper Jutland before jumping across to England and up to the Scandinavian Peninsula."

So I repeat my question, to www.mike.com:

So, trying to understand here, you say there was a roughly simultaneous movement of a U106/I1 group from Jastorf:

> SW to England; and
> N to Scandinavia?

During the volkswagen movements I thought there was a general push from southern Scandinavia towards the south; not from the north German plain to southern Scandinavia.

I think the Volkswagen movements all occurred in the 20th century.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: A.D. on April 18, 2012, 08:15:56 PM
Haven't Iron-age cities been discovered been discovered in the Eastern part of Germania? These must surely have had an effect on language due to more communication. It may have more to do with the differences between West and East Germanic rather than origin.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 18, 2012, 11:46:37 PM
So, trying to understand here, you say there was a roughly simultaneous movement of a U106/I1 group from Jastorf:

> SW to England; and
> N to Scandinavia?

No, what is being discussed is where did the germanic language originate, in Scandinavia or in Jastorf? Either of these popular hypotheses predate the later movements.

My question was referring to the premise behind the scenario put forth by previous poster Mike.www.com, who said this about a merged I1/U106 Jastorf people:

"moving at a fairly late time into Low Countries and the upper Jutland before jumping across to England and up to the Scandinavian Peninsula."

So I repeat my question, to www.mike.com:

So, trying to understand here, you say there was a roughly simultaneous movement of a U106/I1 group from Jastorf:

> SW to England; and
> N to Scandinavia?

During the volkswagen movements I thought there was a general push from southern Scandinavia towards the south; not from the north German plain to southern Scandinavia.

I don't know what really happened. I'm just speculating. 

U106 is as young (less diverse STR-wise) in Scandinavia as it is in England. Meanwhile U106 is older looking (more diverse) to the east of modern Germany, along the northern plains to the Baltic in places like Lithuania and old Pomerania (now Poland.)

So the supposition is that U106 may have met folks (such as I1, R1a1, P312*) from Scandinavia just south of the Jutland to form the Jastorf culture. Later the descendants of Jastorf expanded north up the Jutland into Scandinavia as well as west into the Low Countries and then to England.  This happened at about the same time.




Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Arwunbee on April 19, 2012, 04:11:26 AM
Quote from: Mikewww link=topic=10503.msg129419#msg129419
So the supposition is that U106 may have met folks (such as I1, R1a1, P312*) from Scandinavia just south of the Jutland to form the Jastorf culture.

Jastorf beings around 700 BC?  U106 is about 4000 years old?  So the corollary of your supposition is that U106 was contained east of the Oder River for its first 1300 years?  And that lines up with variance figures?

Quote
Later the descendants of Jastorf expanded north up the Jutland into Scandinavia as well as west into the Low Countries and then to England.  This happened at about the same time.

Are there any historical or archaelogical sources that show a simultaneous movement of people out of the Jastorf area:

West to the Low Countries & England;
and
North to Scandinavia



Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: authun on April 19, 2012, 04:51:26 AM
I think the Volkswagen movements all occurred in the 20th century.

Volkswagen was just a more efficient development of Völkerwanderung.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: authun on April 19, 2012, 05:14:01 AM
There are well documented similarities with the Valcamonica rock art from northern Italy. Boats, sun worshipers, weapons, deer, etc. all there. Always of interest to me, look at page 153 in this Valcamonica document:

http://unicatt.academia.edu/AngeloEugenioFossati/Papers/659220/Valcamonica_a_world_heritage_view (http://unicatt.academia.edu/AngeloEugenioFossati/Papers/659220/Valcamonica_a_world_heritage_view)

That is none other than the stag-god "Cernunnos", also of Gundestrup cauldron fame.

This type of data does require better a better explanation than just 'contacts'. There are many examples. If you look at figure 18, the warrior with the La Tene type shield, it is probably very similar to the sheilds found at Hjortspring,

(http://www.hjortspring.dk/wold/images/skldf31a119.jpg)

http://www.hjortspring.dk/wold/shields.htm (http://www.hjortspring.dk/wold/shields.htm)

Regarding the stag helmet however, the situation is made more complicated by the fact that it formed part of a religious ceromony/rite for thousands of years, as evidenced by the Star Carr mask,

(http://www.britishmuseum.org/images/ps265805_m.jpg)



Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 19, 2012, 10:27:52 AM
Quote from: Mikewww link=topic=10503.msg129419#msg129419
So the supposition is that U106 may have met folks (such as I1, R1a1, P312*) from Scandinavia just south of the Jutland to form the Jastorf culture.

Jastorf beings around 700 BC?  U106 is about 4000 years old?  So the corollary of your supposition is that U106 was contained east of the Oder River for its first 1300 years?  And that lines up with variance figures?

Remember, this is all just a speculative inquiry but it is based on STR diversity being higher in Poland than Germany and being similar in both England and Scandinavia.   Scandinavian U106 does not look old.

Yes, there is a corollary that U106 was not in the Jutland or at the neck of the Jutland or points west or north, to any significant degree, prior to the Jastorf expansion.  It could have been either east or south.  I don't know which. That's not too hard to imagine, if you think the R-L11 family (L11*, U106, P312) originated in SE Europe, the Steppes or SW Asia.

Quote from: Mikewww link=topic=10503.msg129419#msg129419
Later the descendants of Jastorf expanded north up the Jutland into Scandinavia as well as west into the Low Countries and then to England.  This happened at about the same time.

Are there any historical or archaelogical sources that show a simultaneous movement of people out of the Jastorf area:
West to the Low Countries & England; and
North to Scandinavia

I think the movement of people into the Low Countries and over into England (the Anglo-Saxon Era) is pretty well documented.

I don't know much about migrations south to north in the Jutland Peninsula, if there were any, or from Denmark across the straits to the Scandinavian Peninsula.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: authun on April 19, 2012, 11:12:34 AM
I don't know much about migrations south to north in the Jutland Peninsula, if there were any, or from Denmark across the straits to the Scandinavian Peninsula.

If you look at the distribution of these bronze age griffzungen swords, it shows the distribution into Skane in Sweden:

(http://www.cpt.co.uk/jutland/GriffzungenSwords.jpg)
http://www.cpt.co.uk/jutland/GriffzungenSwords.jpg (http://www.cpt.co.uk/jutland/GriffzungenSwords.jpg)


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: GoldenHind on April 19, 2012, 01:32:15 PM
I think the Volkswagen movements all occurred in the 20th century.

Volkswagen was just a more efficient development of Völkerwanderung.

I think the Panzerkampfwagen was more likely than the Volkswagen to have been designed to promote the more recent Völkerwanderungen. In the end it didn't work out too well. 


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 19, 2012, 03:18:42 PM
This type of data does require better a better explanation than just 'contacts'. There are many examples. If you look at figure 18, the warrior with the La Tene type shield, it is probably very similar to the sheilds found at Hjortspring,

(http://www.hjortspring.dk/wold/images/skldf31a119.jpg)

http://www.hjortspring.dk/wold/shields.htm (http://www.hjortspring.dk/wold/shields.htm)

Regarding the stag helmet however, the situation is made more complicated by the fact that it formed part of a religious ceromony/rite for thousands of years, as evidenced by the Star Carr mask,

(http://www.britishmuseum.org/images/ps265805_m.jpg)

A similar Celtic shield from northern Italy (Golaseccan):

http://www.celticworld.it/immagini/wiki/fg_9_68.jpg (http://www.celticworld.it/immagini/wiki/fg_9_68.jpg)


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 20, 2012, 09:18:53 AM
Quote from: Mikewww link=topic=10503.msg129419#msg129419
So the supposition is that U106 may have met folks (such as I1, R1a1, P312*) from Scandinavia just south of the Jutland to form the Jastorf culture.

Jastorf beings around 700 BC?  U106 is about 4000 years old?  So the corollary of your supposition is that U106 was contained east of the Oder River for its first 1300 years?  And that lines up with variance figures?

Remember, this is all just a speculative inquiry but it is based on STR diversity being higher in Poland than Germany and being similar in both England and Scandinavia.   Scandinavian U106 does not look old.

Yes, there is a corollary that U106 was not in the Jutland or at the neck of the Jutland or points west or north, to any significant degree, prior to the Jastorf expansion.  It could have been either east or south.  I don't know which. That's not too hard to imagine, if you think the R-L11 family (L11*, U106, P312) originated in SE Europe, the Steppes or SW Asia.

Good news for Maliclavelli. This is from a U106 project admin from the U106 forum today.
Quote from: Michael Maddi
It was pointed out to me by the co-administrator of the Italy Project that the members of the North Italy Project who've tested U106+ seem to be mostly L48- (U106* by present deep clade nomenclature). Looking at the STR results table - at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/northitaly/default.aspx?section=yresults - and the SNP results table - at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/northitaly/default.aspx?section=ysnp - there are 8 U106+ men in the project. Of these, only one is L48+; the other 7 are L48-.

This is unusual, since about 40-50% of U106+ men are also L48+. That says something about the origin in northern Europe of the North Italian U106 lines and about the migrations that brought them there, although I'm not sure what it's saying. (It's fairly well-established that R1b-U106 and subclades are mainly a northern European haplogroup.) In contrast, all 3 U106+ lines from Sicily (including me) that I know about are also L48+.

It would be very worthwhile for you to test Z18 and Z381 from the Advanced Orders menu to establish if you belong in one of those subclades. Those two SNPs are not yet included in the deep clade test.

There is some genetic evidence that U106 could have been south of Jastorf area prior to its formation.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 20, 2012, 09:37:24 AM
Quote from: Mikewww link=topic=10503.msg129419#msg129419
So the supposition is that U106 may have met folks (such as I1, R1a1, P312*) from Scandinavia just south of the Jutland to form the Jastorf culture.

Jastorf beings around 700 BC?  U106 is about 4000 years old?  So the corollary of your supposition is that U106 was contained east of the Oder River for its first 1300 years?  And that lines up with variance figures?

Remember, this is all just a speculative inquiry but it is based on STR diversity being higher in Poland than Germany and being similar in both England and Scandinavia.   Scandinavian U106 does not look old.

Yes, there is a corollary that U106 was not in the Jutland or at the neck of the Jutland or points west or north, to any significant degree, prior to the Jastorf expansion.  It could have been either east or south.  I don't know which. That's not too hard to imagine, if you think the R-L11 family (L11*, U106, P312) originated in SE Europe, the Steppes or SW Asia.

Good news for Maliclavelli. This is from a U106 project admin from the U106 forum today.
Quote from: Michael Maddi
It was pointed out to me by the co-administrator of the Italy Project that the members of the North Italy Project who've tested U106+ seem to be mostly L48- (U106* by present deep clade nomenclature). Looking at the STR results table - at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/northitaly/default.aspx?section=yresults - and the SNP results table - at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/northitaly/default.aspx?section=ysnp - there are 8 U106+ men in the project. Of these, only one is L48+; the other 7 are L48-.

This is unusual, since about 40-50% of U106+ men are also L48+. That says something about the origin in northern Europe of the North Italian U106 lines and about the migrations that brought them there, although I'm not sure what it's saying. (It's fairly well-established that R1b-U106 and subclades are mainly a northern European haplogroup.) In contrast, all 3 U106+ lines from Sicily (including me) that I know about are also L48+.

It would be very worthwhile for you to test Z18 and Z381 from the Advanced Orders menu to establish if you belong in one of those subclades. Those two SNPs are not yet included in the deep clade test.

There is some genetic evidence that U106 could have been south of Jastorf area prior to its formation.

LOL - yes, the co-admin of the Italy project that pointed that out to Mike M. was me. To further the comment, it looks like DYS390=24 is also modal for U106 in all of southern Europe (Spain, Italy and the Balkans) and a large part of France.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Maliclavelli on April 20, 2012, 10:02:52 AM
“Good news for Maliclavelli”.

I wrote many letters to MMaddi from when I wrote on Rootsweb, before my banishment at the end of 2007, and I said that also about R-U106, thought by everybody of German origin, we couldn’t be sure, because we couldn’t exclude an origin in the Italian Refugium also of this haplogroup. And this was based on my knowledge of Francesco Cesaroni, on the knowledge of the origin of his family and of his surname, then other thing rather than my “nationalism”. Also in this case only scientific analyses. Of course I am not sure and cannot exclude that this haplogroup has reached Italy with the Germans, but I invited not to take anything for granted. I have analysed also the case of the Brazilian of Italian descent Zeni, he R-U106 too.




Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: razyn on April 20, 2012, 01:37:05 PM
we couldn’t be sure, because we couldn’t exclude an origin in the Italian Refugium also of this haplogroup.

We could, if we have zero evidence that this haplogroup is as old as the Ice Age, from which the undoubtedly lovely and culturally important Italian peninsula was supposedly a refuge for the yet-to-be born R1b haplogroup.

The Romans, bless their hearts, imported slaves, soldiers, tutors, diplomatic hostages, seamen and merchants (at least) from places far to the east -- in which R1b was probably found long before it was found in that peninsula -- according to almost every academic source in print, or nationalistic fantasy found online, except this one.  Which I continue to doubt, as unsupported, unless and until something supports it.  Several closely related P312* people in present-day Tuscany do not constitute support for a Peopling of Everywhere theory that is otherwise wildly hypothetical, and out of step with the mainstream.

The Jastorf culture was about contemporary with Romulus and Remus, it wasn't at the dawn of the Bronze Age.  I don't have a problem with assigning high genetic status to Jastorf people -- nor to the aforementioned Roman imports, the Sea People, or other persons resident in present Italy -- after the haplogroup in question existed.  Those P312* Tuscans, or U106* guys, probably do represent remnants of early, successful, and remarkably resilient lineages.  Maybe even from 5,000 years ago -- wherever they may have lived, way back then.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: GoldenHind on April 20, 2012, 01:46:22 PM
we couldn’t be sure, because we couldn’t exclude an origin in the Italian Refugium also of this haplogroup.

We could, if we have zero evidence that this haplogroup is as old as the Ice Age, from which the undoubtedly lovely and culturally important Italian peninsula was supposedly a refuge for the yet-to-be born R1b haplogroup.

The Romans, bless their hearts, imported slaves, soldiers, tutors, diplomatic hostages, seamen and merchants (at least) from places far to the east -- in which R1b was probably found long before it was found in that peninsula -- according to almost every academic source in print, or nationalistic fantasy found online, except this one.  Which I continue to doubt, as unsupported, unless and until something supports it.  Several closely related P312* people in present-day Tuscany do not constitute support for a Peopling of Everywhere theory that is otherwise wildly hypothetical, and out of step with the mainstream.

The Jastorf culture was about contemporary with Romulus and Remus, it wasn't at the dawn of the Bronze Age.  I don't have a problem with assigning high genetic status to Jastorf people -- nor to the aforementioned Roman imports, the Sea People, or other persons resident in present Italy -- after the haplogroup in question existed.  Those P312* Tuscans, or U106* guys, probably do represent remnants of early, successful, and remarkably resilient lineages.  Maybe even from 5,000 years ago -- wherever they may have lived, way back then.

I would caution that those currently identified as P312* or U106* don't necessarily represent older lineages of those subclades. All the * indicates is that their defining SNP hasn't been discovered yet. When it is discovered, it could well be younger than the other currently known subclades below P312 and U106. If those who believe SNPs occur every generation or two are correct, then true P312* and U106* doesn't exist in the present day.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Maliclavelli on April 20, 2012, 02:20:18 PM
,
The Romans, bless their hearts
Who knows me knows that I don’t like who hides himself. I am seeing only that your plant secerns poison. What do I know of you? Only that you are R-Z196*. You may be everything and nothing. Like Farinata asked Dante, I say: “Chi fur li maggior tui?”. Tell me, and you’ll get the answer you merit.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: razyn on April 20, 2012, 02:25:20 PM
I would caution that those currently identified as P312* or U106* don't necessarily represent older lineages of those subclades.

I was trying to give Gioiello the benefit of the doubt.  Guess it's just my irenic nature.  Anyway, if they represent old lineages, that's about how old -- not the Ice Age -- and not necessarily born where they are now found, in Tuscany.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: GoldenHind on April 20, 2012, 02:25:54 PM
Quote from: Mikewww link=topic=10503.msg129419#msg129419
So the supposition is that U106 may have met folks (such as I1, R1a1, P312*) from Scandinavia just south of the Jutland to form the Jastorf culture.

Jastorf beings around 700 BC?  U106 is about 4000 years old?  So the corollary of your supposition is that U106 was contained east of the Oder River for its first 1300 years?  And that lines up with variance figures?

Remember, this is all just a speculative inquiry but it is based on STR diversity being higher in Poland than Germany and being similar in both England and Scandinavia.   Scandinavian U106 does not look old.

Yes, there is a corollary that U106 was not in the Jutland or at the neck of the Jutland or points west or north, to any significant degree, prior to the Jastorf expansion.  It could have been either east or south.  I don't know which. That's not too hard to imagine, if you think the R-L11 family (L11*, U106, P312) originated in SE Europe, the Steppes or SW Asia.

Good news for Maliclavelli. This is from a U106 project admin from the U106 forum today.
Quote from: Michael Maddi
It was pointed out to me by the co-administrator of the Italy Project that the members of the North Italy Project who've tested U106+ seem to be mostly L48- (U106* by present deep clade nomenclature). Looking at the STR results table - at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/northitaly/default.aspx?section=yresults - and the SNP results table - at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/northitaly/default.aspx?section=ysnp - there are 8 U106+ men in the project. Of these, only one is L48+; the other 7 are L48-.

This is unusual, since about 40-50% of U106+ men are also L48+. That says something about the origin in northern Europe of the North Italian U106 lines and about the migrations that brought them there, although I'm not sure what it's saying. (It's fairly well-established that R1b-U106 and subclades are mainly a northern European haplogroup.) In contrast, all 3 U106+ lines from Sicily (including me) that I know about are also L48+.

It would be very worthwhile for you to test Z18 and Z381 from the Advanced Orders menu to establish if you belong in one of those subclades. Those two SNPs are not yet included in the deep clade test.

There is some genetic evidence that U106 could have been south of Jastorf area prior to its formation.

I have pointed out a couple of times that the northern Italian U-106 predominantly has DYS390=24. No one beside Rich R. and myself seems to think it has any significance. According to the U106 project administrators, 390=24 is the oriiginal value for U106. 390=23 apparently only developed in the later Z301 subclade, which includes L48, the most common U106 subclade. It could be an indication of an early arrival of U106(xZ301) in northern Italy.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jdean on April 20, 2012, 04:08:02 PM
Quote from: Mikewww link=topic=10503.msg129419#msg129419
So the supposition is that U106 may have met folks (such as I1, R1a1, P312*) from Scandinavia just south of the Jutland to form the Jastorf culture.

Jastorf beings around 700 BC?  U106 is about 4000 years old?  So the corollary of your supposition is that U106 was contained east of the Oder River for its first 1300 years?  And that lines up with variance figures?

Remember, this is all just a speculative inquiry but it is based on STR diversity being higher in Poland than Germany and being similar in both England and Scandinavia.   Scandinavian U106 does not look old.

Yes, there is a corollary that U106 was not in the Jutland or at the neck of the Jutland or points west or north, to any significant degree, prior to the Jastorf expansion.  It could have been either east or south.  I don't know which. That's not too hard to imagine, if you think the R-L11 family (L11*, U106, P312) originated in SE Europe, the Steppes or SW Asia.

Good news for Maliclavelli. This is from a U106 project admin from the U106 forum today.
Quote from: Michael Maddi
It was pointed out to me by the co-administrator of the Italy Project that the members of the North Italy Project who've tested U106+ seem to be mostly L48- (U106* by present deep clade nomenclature). Looking at the STR results table - at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/northitaly/default.aspx?section=yresults - and the SNP results table - at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/northitaly/default.aspx?section=ysnp - there are 8 U106+ men in the project. Of these, only one is L48+; the other 7 are L48-.

This is unusual, since about 40-50% of U106+ men are also L48+. That says something about the origin in northern Europe of the North Italian U106 lines and about the migrations that brought them there, although I'm not sure what it's saying. (It's fairly well-established that R1b-U106 and subclades are mainly a northern European haplogroup.) In contrast, all 3 U106+ lines from Sicily (including me) that I know about are also L48+.

It would be very worthwhile for you to test Z18 and Z381 from the Advanced Orders menu to establish if you belong in one of those subclades. Those two SNPs are not yet included in the deep clade test.

There is some genetic evidence that U106 could have been south of Jastorf area prior to its formation.

I have pointed out a couple of times that the northern Italian U-106 predominantly has DYS390=24. No one beside Rich R. and myself seems to think it has any significance. According to the U106 project administrators, 390=24 is the oriiginal value for U106. 390=23 apparently only developed in the later Z301 subclade, which includes L48, the most common U106 subclade. It could be an indication of an early arrival of U106(xZ301) in northern Italy.

390=24 is modal for Z18 as well of course. As yet we haven’t found an Italian Z18 and it would be interesting if one or two of these people tested for it, but I think they should probably testing Z381 first.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 20, 2012, 04:56:18 PM
....
I have pointed out a couple of times that the northern Italian U-106 predominantly has DYS390=24. No one beside Rich R. and myself seems to think it has any significance. According to the U106 project administrators, 390=24 is the oriiginal value for U106. 390=23 apparently only developed in the later Z301 subclade, which includes L48, the most common U106 subclade. It could be an indication of an early arrival of U106(xZ301) in northern Italy.
I'm with you on that. I was not aware of 390=24 in Italy but Maddi has said for years that 390=24 is modal in Poland and I've often repeated that.

However, I will say, one STR is not enough to bet too much on.  Now, if 390=24 AND 492=12 were modal for U106 somewhere.. that would be something.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 20, 2012, 07:49:54 PM
I really don't want to get involved in another U106 argument, but I think you all should notice that 390=24 isn't exactly all that rare among U106ers.

If I were a betting man, my money would be on the Lombards for most Northern Italian U106. There might be a stray prehistoric U106 line in N. Italy, but how would that alter the big picture?


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jdean on April 20, 2012, 07:57:51 PM
I really don't want to get involved in another U106 argument, but I think you all should notice that 390=24 isn't exactly all that rare among U106ers.

Far to common to get excited about for sure but 390=23 is much more common below Z381, in fact I think it's pretty much L48 and down


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 20, 2012, 08:05:54 PM
I really don't want to get involved in another U106 argument, but I think you all should notice that 390=24 isn't exactly all that rare among U106ers.

Far to common to get excited about for sure but 390=23 is much more common below Z381, in fact I think it's pretty much L48 and down

True, but 390=24 is probably the modal value for all of L11, and 23 is only a one-step mutation. Heck, I have that, and I am L21+.

I need to leave U106 alone, though. A number of folks (not you, Jdean) have far too much emotion invested in it, and it isn't all that important to me.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 21, 2012, 01:17:19 AM
I really don't want to get involved in another U106 argument, but I think you all should notice that 390=24 isn't exactly all that rare among U106ers.

Far to common to get excited about for sure but 390=23 is much more common below Z381, in fact I think it's pretty much L48 and down

True, but 390=24 is probably the modal value for all of L11, and 23 is only a one-step mutation. Heck, I have that, and I am L21+....
Agreed, that's why the pattern of at least a couple of markers is more important. 


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jdean on April 21, 2012, 04:16:15 AM
I really don't want to get involved in another U106 argument, but I think you all should notice that 390=24 isn't exactly all that rare among U106ers.

Far to common to get excited about for sure but 390=23 is much more common below Z381, in fact I think it's pretty much L48 and down

True, but 390=24 is probably the modal value for all of L11, and 23 is only a one-step mutation. Heck, I have that, and I am L21+....
Agreed, that's why the pattern of at least a couple of markers is more important.  

Yep, though you can use single values to make broad and very rough predictions sometimes. I wouldn't really on DYS390 too much though as it's a little fast.

rather amusingly (and not terribly relevant to this discussion) one of the members of the Z18 project has a Niall's badge :)


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Arwunbee on April 21, 2012, 06:05:02 AM
rather amusingly (and not terribly relevant to this discussion) one of the members of the Z18 project has a Niall's badge :)
I assume he has four great-grandfathers.  How many do you have?  2?


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 21, 2012, 06:18:19 AM
I really don't want to get involved in another U106 argument, but I think you all should notice that 390=24 isn't exactly all that rare among U106ers.

Far to common to get excited about for sure but 390=23 is much more common below Z381, in fact I think it's pretty much L48 and down

True, but 390=24 is probably the modal value for all of L11, and 23 is only a one-step mutation. Heck, I have that, and I am L21+....
Agreed, that's why the pattern of at least a couple of markers is more important.  

Yep, though you can use single values to make broad and very rough predictions sometimes. I wouldn't really on DYS390 too much though as it's a little fast.

rather amusingly (and not terribly relevant to this discussion) one of the members of the Z18 project has a Niall's badge :)


Does he have 492=13?

If not, I would write FTDNA and ask them to recheck him. His result wouldn't be the first lab error. We've had "U106+" guys turn out to be L21+ guys and vice versa before.

I had a guy in the R-P312 etc. Project with a Niall badge get an L21- M222- result at first. I thought that was odd, so I pestered FTDNA to recheck him. Lo and behold, he turned out to be R-M222.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jdean on April 21, 2012, 06:31:55 AM
rather amusingly (and not terribly relevant to this discussion) one of the members of the Z18 project has a Niall's badge :)
I assume he has four great-grandfathers.  How many do you have?  2?


I know their’s a joke here but I can't quite figure it out ?


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jdean on April 21, 2012, 06:41:39 AM

rather amusingly (and not terribly relevant to this discussion) one of the members of the Z18 project has a Niall's badge :)


Does he have 492=13?

If not, I would write FTDNA and ask them to recheck him. His result wouldn't be the first lab error. We've had "U106+" guys turn out to be L21+ guys and vice versa before.

I had a guy in the R-P312 etc. Project with a Niall badge get an L21- M222- result at first. I thought that was odd, so I pestered FTDNA to recheck him. Lo and behold, he turned out to be R-M222.

Yes 492=13, but  390=25 along with 392=14 which is convergence.

He was a fairly solid candidate for Z18 and took the test at our suggestion , he's kit no 132745 in the project

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-z18/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-z18/default.aspx?section=yresults)


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 21, 2012, 06:50:32 AM

rather amusingly (and not terribly relevant to this discussion) one of the members of the Z18 project has a Niall's badge :)


Does he have 492=13?

If not, I would write FTDNA and ask them to recheck him. His result wouldn't be the first lab error. We've had "U106+" guys turn out to be L21+ guys and vice versa before.

I had a guy in the R-P312 etc. Project with a Niall badge get an L21- M222- result at first. I thought that was odd, so I pestered FTDNA to recheck him. Lo and behold, he turned out to be R-M222.

Yes 492=13, but  390=25 along with 392=14 which is convergence.

He was a fairly solid candidate for Z18 and took the test at our suggestion , he's kit no 132745 in the project

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-z18/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-z18/default.aspx?section=yresults)


Too bad.

I guess FTDNA is giving Niall badges based on the 12-marker haplotype?

BTW, the guy I mentioned above who turned out to be M222+ in the end is now one of my Family Finder matches. Small world.



Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jdean on April 21, 2012, 07:07:04 AM

rather amusingly (and not terribly relevant to this discussion) one of the members of the Z18 project has a Niall's badge :)


It is indeed, all my matches are Americans, bit like most of my STR matches  :) (I do have a couple from the UK now, at last)

Does he have 492=13?

If not, I would write FTDNA and ask them to recheck him. His result wouldn't be the first lab error. We've had "U106+" guys turn out to be L21+ guys and vice versa before.

I had a guy in the R-P312 etc. Project with a Niall badge get an L21- M222- result at first. I thought that was odd, so I pestered FTDNA to recheck him. Lo and behold, he turned out to be R-M222.

Yes 492=13, but  390=25 along with 392=14 which is convergence.

He was a fairly solid candidate for Z18 and took the test at our suggestion , he's kit no 132745 in the project

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-z18/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-z18/default.aspx?section=yresults)


Too bad.

I guess FTDNA is giving Niall badges based on the 12-marker haplotype?

BTW, the guy I mentioned above who turned out to be M222+ in the end is now one of my Family Finder matches. Small world.



It is indeed, all my matches are Americans, bit like most of my STR matches. I do have a couple from the UK, at last, so maybe I am a Brit after all :)


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 21, 2012, 07:16:47 AM

rather amusingly (and not terribly relevant to this discussion) one of the members of the Z18 project has a Niall's badge :)


It is indeed, all my matches are Americans, bit like most of my STR matches  :) (I do have a couple from the UK now, at last)

Does he have 492=13?

If not, I would write FTDNA and ask them to recheck him. His result wouldn't be the first lab error. We've had "U106+" guys turn out to be L21+ guys and vice versa before.

I had a guy in the R-P312 etc. Project with a Niall badge get an L21- M222- result at first. I thought that was odd, so I pestered FTDNA to recheck him. Lo and behold, he turned out to be R-M222.

Yes 492=13, but  390=25 along with 392=14 which is convergence.

He was a fairly solid candidate for Z18 and took the test at our suggestion , he's kit no 132745 in the project

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-z18/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-z18/default.aspx?section=yresults)


Too bad.

I guess FTDNA is giving Niall badges based on the 12-marker haplotype?

BTW, the guy I mentioned above who turned out to be M222+ in the end is now one of my Family Finder matches. Small world.



It is indeed, all my matches are Americans, bit like most of my STR matches. I do have a couple from the UK, at last, so maybe I am a Brit after all :)

I have at least two Family Finder matches who are British citizens. My M222+ Family Finder match is an Irishman (at least by descent; I don't recall whether or not he is an American).

Back on the Germanic/U106 thing, I notice the Z18 Project has grown quite a bit and now takes in a lot of continentals.

I also noticed kit 130720 lists Peter Sandifer as mdka. It says he died in Mississippi. I wonder if that would be Pike County, Mississippi. My family lived there after the Civil War, in and near Magnolia. The Sandifers were early pioneers in Pike County. 


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jdean on April 21, 2012, 01:31:34 PM

rather amusingly (and not terribly relevant to this discussion) one of the members of the Z18 project has a Niall's badge :)


It is indeed, all my matches are Americans, bit like most of my STR matches  :) (I do have a couple from the UK now, at last)

Does he have 492=13?

If not, I would write FTDNA and ask them to recheck him. His result wouldn't be the first lab error. We've had "U106+" guys turn out to be L21+ guys and vice versa before.

I had a guy in the R-P312 etc. Project with a Niall badge get an L21- M222- result at first. I thought that was odd, so I pestered FTDNA to recheck him. Lo and behold, he turned out to be R-M222.

Yes 492=13, but  390=25 along with 392=14 which is convergence.

He was a fairly solid candidate for Z18 and took the test at our suggestion , he's kit no 132745 in the project

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-z18/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-z18/default.aspx?section=yresults)


Too bad.

I guess FTDNA is giving Niall badges based on the 12-marker haplotype?

BTW, the guy I mentioned above who turned out to be M222+ in the end is now one of my Family Finder matches. Small world.



It is indeed, all my matches are Americans, bit like most of my STR matches. I do have a couple from the UK, at last, so maybe I am a Brit after all :)

I have at least two Family Finder matches who are British citizens. My M222+ Family Finder match is an Irishman (at least by descent; I don't recall whether or not he is an American).

Back on the Germanic/U106 thing, I notice the Z18 Project has grown quite a bit and now takes in a lot of continentals.

I also noticed kit 130720 lists Peter Sandifer as mdka. It says he died in Mississippi. I wonder if that would be Pike County, Mississippi. My family lived there after the Civil War, in and near Magnolia. The Sandifers were early pioneers in Pike County. 

I'm pretty sure all my matches are Americans. Really I need to put more time into that but finishing off the family tree on my mothers side is proving a little time consuming. My plan was to get 6 generations down on all lines but I'm getting into pre census days and a lot of very common Welsh names, so far 3 Davies lines, 3 Morgans, 2 Thomas and 2 Parry, no point mentioning all the singletons but Jones crops up of course :)

When I email the Sandifers next I'll try and remember to ask about Pike County. I expect it is the same family it's not a particularly common name, least ways not this side of the pond.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: GoldenHind on April 21, 2012, 02:13:33 PM
I need to leave U106 alone, though. A number of folks (not you, Jdean) have far too much emotion invested in it, and it isn't all that important to me.

I think that is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 21, 2012, 03:54:10 PM
I need to leave U106 alone, though. A number of folks (not you, Jdean) have far too much emotion invested in it, and it isn't all that important to me.

I think that is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

That was revealing.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: GoldenHind on April 21, 2012, 05:12:40 PM
I need to leave U106 alone, though. A number of folks (not you, Jdean) have far too much emotion invested in it, and it isn't all that important to me.

I think that is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

That was revealing.


Having thought about it, I came back to delete my comment. Unfortunately it was too late. All I meant to comment on was that you have gotten pretty angry in some of the discussions, as perhaps many of us have.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 21, 2012, 05:16:48 PM
I'm sorry I beat you to deleting it.

I've posted stuff I have been lucky enough to delete pretty quickly myself and been glad of it.



Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: whoknows on April 22, 2012, 06:30:06 AM
Goldenhind

Often an angry response suggests some emotional attachment.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 22, 2012, 06:46:50 AM
Does this forum allow sock-puppets?


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: whoknows on April 22, 2012, 06:52:22 AM
The alternative is censorship and no one of compassion or integrity would advocate any such exclusion.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 22, 2012, 07:47:20 AM
No - the alternative is civility. A forum like this one is created for discussion of specific topics. Civil discourse is an aid to keeping on topic. That is generally recognised by those running forums these days, after many years of Internet experience. That is why forums nowadays have registration and rules and moderators.

It is standard practice to remove spam, ban sock-puppets and personal attacks, and attempt to keep discussions on the topic of the thread title. None of this is easy. The moderator always has a pretty thankless task. A forum such as this one has particular problems in that discussions of ethnicity can become extremely heated and descend rapidly into racist or ethnic abuse. There are forums out there that I wouldn't want to post on because they can't or don't control that tendency.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: whoknows on April 22, 2012, 08:29:01 AM
Yes absoluteley, it's always a disappointing distraction when people indulge in discourtesy, no matter how cleverly veiled, far more more mature to remain objective and polite, than indulge in fallacious responses using ad hominem, appeals to ridicule etc. Thankfully due to the integrity and consideration of our Moderator, along with the vigilance of contributors such as your good self, such behavior is rare.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 22, 2012, 08:44:49 AM
No - the alternative is civility.

That is true, but sometimes that is tough, especially when one knows what is going on and is tempted to just be blunt about it.

Maybe our recent outbreak of whatever-this-is concerning U106 will fade. I hope it does soon.

It would be nice if we could all just discuss it without emotion and without underhanded games.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: whoknows on April 22, 2012, 10:56:30 AM
Bravo!


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: GoldenHind on April 23, 2012, 03:30:56 PM
Maybe our recent outbreak of whatever-this-is concerning U106 will fade. I hope it does soon.


I hope it does too. Unfortunately the argument has degenerated into far too many snide comments from a number of people, including myself. So here is what I fully intend to be my very last public comment on the subject for a very long time.

As the motivations for well known views have been questioned, I have spent some time reflecting on why I keep harping on the subject. While one's motivations may be complex and may alter over time, I think there is one primary reason why I keep referring to the subject of U106.

I believe the the oft expressed view that U106 is monolithic and exclusively Germanic is strangling further research on U106 subclades.

I have been in touch with a few people who are trying to conduct research into the subclades of U106, without any assistance from those in charge of the U106 project.  A common complaint is that there isn't much interest by those who are U106 in doing any further subclade testing. This is in complete contrast to P312, where every new SNP engenders a lot of interest and numerous orders. I think much of the lack of interest is due to the monolithic view of U106 as exclusively Germanic. Once one has tested U106, one only need determine which Germanic tribe settled in the appropriate ancestral area during the Migration Age, and one knows everything one needs to know. Further testing just gives one a jumble of letters and numbers which are essentially meaningless. Since the answer is known in advance, there is no need to ask the question.

It is clear that the subclade substructure of U106 is just as complex as that of P312. But as long as the current view prevails, I think it is going to prove extremely difficult to make much progress in deciphering it.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 23, 2012, 05:41:19 PM
Maybe our recent outbreak of whatever-this-is concerning U106 will fade. I hope it does soon.


. . .

I believe the the oft expressed view that U106 is monolithic and exclusively Germanic is strangling further research on U106 subclades.

. . .



Where has that view been "oft expressed"? Certainly not here and not by anyone I can recall.

It's a waste of time debating past each other. Judging by what you posted above, you haven't really been arguing with anyone here, anyway.

You have been combating a position taken by no one that I know of.

I would say U106 is mostly Germanic, but there are exceptions. I tend to think the exceptions are rather insignificant and don't alter the big picture, but that is far different from saying that "U106 is monolithic and exclusively Germanic".

In fact, I wouldn't put that kind of label on ANY major y haplogroup.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 23, 2012, 06:02:21 PM

Germanic is strangling further research on U106 subclades.

Why would a Germanic label strangle research into subclades? People will always want to know more. Angle? Saxon? Viking? Frank? Can we tell the difference? The desire to climb out of a broad ethnic label altogether is not even the primary driver of research, let alone the exclusive one.

I can't speak for any of the groups involved of course, but I have been impressed by the website http://l257.groenebeverbv.nl/ and seem to recall a lot of interest in other subclades of U106 on DNA Forums. Given the numbers of people carrying U106, that's not surprising. I'd say that people will go on beavering away until they can get some surname-subclade links.

[Added] The L48+ WTY Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-L48-WTY/default.aspx) remains active and is now accepting donations for L48 null 425 cluster SNP tests, if anyone is feeling generous.  "SNP Z326 has previously been identified as a SNP that appears to be equivalent with the null 425 cluster.  However, there are now 13 additional SNPs on this branch that have become testable SNPs on the FTDNA Advanced Orders menu."


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 23, 2012, 07:05:02 PM
Quote from: Mikewww link=topic=10503.msg129419#msg129419
So the supposition is that U106 may have met folks (such as I1, R1a1, P312*) from Scandinavia just south of the Jutland to form the Jastorf culture.

Jastorf beings around 700 BC?  U106 is about 4000 years old?  So the corollary of your supposition is that U106 was contained east of the Oder River for its first 1300 years?  And that lines up with variance figures?

Remember, this is all just a speculative inquiry but it is based on STR diversity being higher in Poland than Germany and being similar in both England and Scandinavia.   Scandinavian U106 does not look old.

Yes, there is a corollary that U106 was not in the Jutland or at the neck of the Jutland or points west or north, to any significant degree, prior to the Jastorf expansion.  It could have been either east or south.  I don't know which. That's not too hard to imagine, if you think the R-L11 family (L11*, U106, P312) originated in SE Europe, the Steppes or SW Asia.

Quote from: Mikewww link=topic=10503.msg129419#msg129419
Later the descendants of Jastorf expanded north up the Jutland into Scandinavia as well as west into the Low Countries and then to England.  This happened at about the same time.

Are there any historical or archaelogical sources that show a simultaneous movement of people out of the Jastorf area:
West to the Low Countries & England; and
North to Scandinavia

I think the movement of people into the Low Countries and over into England (the Anglo-Saxon Era) is pretty well documented.

I don't know much about migrations south to north in the Jutland Peninsula, if there were any, or from Denmark across the straits to the Scandinavian Peninsula.
Nord-Pas-de-Calais seems to be the final roadblock for U106 on its way to England.

U106 is 8% in Ile de France and 9% in Nord-Pas-de-Calais, while it is 27% among Authentic Flemish surnames.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/04/bearers-of-french-surnames-in-flanders.html

Although we don't have Normandy in this study, my review of our DNA projects leads me to the opinion that Normandy is also low on U106. I1 might be a little stronger along the Atlantic France. I think this goes along with the possibility that U106 was late to Scandinavia and that it was the "southern" contingent that integrated of what was to become Jastorf.  I'm just speculating, but I think U106's expansion pushed north as well as west to get to the frequency numbers it now has in England and Scandinavia. The earlier days of the Vikings probably didn't include many U106 guys.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 23, 2012, 07:16:32 PM
I think there were probably plenty of Danish Vikings who were U106 but far fewer Swedes and Norwegians. Remember that the Danes extended into the southern part of what is now Sweden.

The Norwegians went mainly to Scotland and Ireland and NW England, while the actual Swedes (not the Danes of Scania/southern Sweden) mainly went east, into Russia. The Danes were latecomers to Ireland and spent most of their time in the British Isles menacing and settling in eastern England.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 23, 2012, 07:21:02 PM
I think there were probably plenty of Danish Vikings who were U106 but far fewer Swedes and Norwegians. Remember that the Danes extended into the southern part of what is now Sweden.

The Norwegians went mainly to Scotland and Ireland and NW England, while the actual Swedes (not the Danes of Scania/southern Sweden) mainly went east, into Russia. The Danes were latecomers to Ireland and spent most of their time in the British Isles menacing and settling in eastern England.
.... so there is historical backup for a late drive of people from the Jutland (Denmark) across the straits to the Scandinavian Peninsula.

This makes sense because places where we see the "Hiberno-Vikings" and "Scots-Norse" don't seem to have a strong  of U106, actually more of the Scandinavian variants of P312, like L165.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 23, 2012, 07:29:00 PM
I think there were probably plenty of Danish Vikings who were U106 but far fewer Swedes and Norwegians. Remember that the Danes extended into the southern part of what is now Sweden.

The Norwegians went mainly to Scotland and Ireland and NW England, while the actual Swedes (not the Danes of Scania/southern Sweden) mainly went east, into Russia. The Danes were latecomers to Ireland and spent most of their time in the British Isles menacing and settling in eastern England.
.... so there is historical backup for a late drive of people from the Jutland (Denmark) across the straits to the Scandinavian Peninsula.

This makes sense because places where we see the "Hiberno-Vikings" and "Scots-Norse" don't seem to have a strong  of U106, actually more of the Scandinavian variants of P312, like L165.


I'm not sure when the Danes moved into Scania (Skåne), which I think was bigger than the modern Swedish county that bears that name, or if perhaps they even originated there and moved west and south into the islands and Jutland at some point.

I am a little rusty on all this stuff, but the Swedes or Svear were the people farther north who had moved south to menace Danish-held territory. You get some of the flavor of that in the old sagas, where the Svear are generally treated as bad guys, into witchcraft and sorcery.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 23, 2012, 07:41:03 PM
I think there were probably plenty of Danish Vikings who were U106 but far fewer Swedes and Norwegians. Remember that the Danes extended into the southern part of what is now Sweden.

The Norwegians went mainly to Scotland and Ireland and NW England, while the actual Swedes (not the Danes of Scania/southern Sweden) mainly went east, into Russia. The Danes were latecomers to Ireland and spent most of their time in the British Isles menacing and settling in eastern England.
.... so there is historical backup for a late drive of people from the Jutland (Denmark) across the straits to the Scandinavian Peninsula.

This makes sense because places where we see the "Hiberno-Vikings" and "Scots-Norse" don't seem to have a strong  of U106, actually more of the Scandinavian variants of P312, like L165.


I'm not sure when the Danes moved into Scania (Skåne), which I think was bigger than the modern Swedish county that bears that name, or if perhaps they even originated there and moved west and south into the islands and Jutland at some point.

I am a little rusty on all this stuff, but the Swedes or Svear were the people farther north who had moved south to menace Danish-held territory. You get some of the flavor of that in the old sagas, where the Svear are generally treated as bad guys, into witchcraft and sorcery.


I also seem to recall a movement of Danes into the region of the Oslofjord in Norway, but my memory is fuzzy on that.

I used to be really into the whole Germanic/Viking thing and was really current on it.

I lost interest in it pretty quickly in 2006, admittedly as a consequence of my own initial I1- result and subsequent S21- (U106-) result. ;-)

Of course, one of my third great grandfathers on my father's side was I1, so maybe I should rekindle the old interest, but I probably won't.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Arwunbee on April 23, 2012, 08:54:45 PM
20-30% of Iceland is U106 according to this Eupedia map.  What I'm trying to get my head around is if U106 was a fairly late push into Scandinavia, roughly when did that happen and isn't it a bit against the current (ie Germanicky types getting in their volkswagens heading south instead of north)?
http://www.disnorge.no/cms/system/files/offentlige_filer/Haplogroup-R1b-U106%20Eupedia.gif (http://www.disnorge.no/cms/system/files/offentlige_filer/Haplogroup-R1b-U106%20Eupedia.gif)


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: gtc on April 23, 2012, 09:04:57 PM
A common complaint is that there isn't much interest by those who are U106 in doing any further subclade testing. This is in complete contrast to P312, where every new SNP engenders a lot of interest and numerous orders.

Going by Thomas Krahn's figures, testing totals to date are:

U106: 7271
P312: 5557

Quote
I think much of the lack of interest is due to the monolithic view of U106 as exclusively Germanic.

I'm in the U106 project and I haven't heard anybody advance that argument. The majority of discussion is along the lines of "what can I test for next?" and the admins do a great job of analyzing haplotypes and suggesting the next move. Another frequent question is "when will the primer for xxx be developed so that I can test for it?"

IMO the key issue for U106 is to get many more Europeans with known ancestry tested.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 24, 2012, 05:30:57 AM
IMO the key issue for U106 is to get many more Europeans with known ancestry tested.

Maybe we should nag Peter Forster to publish something on U106. I hear that Roots for Real has a huge European database. They advertise in German and French as well as English. 


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: authun on April 24, 2012, 06:53:03 AM
The Norwegians went mainly to Scotland and Ireland and NW England, while the actual Swedes (not the Danes of Scania/southern Sweden) mainly went east, into Russia.

Runestones in Sweden are particularly helpful as they sometimes record the location, eg the Ingvar Runestones record the expedition to the Caspian Sea, about 26, the Greece Runestones those to the Byzantine Empire, about 30 and the England Runestones record those to Britain also about 30. They are mostly found around the Lake Malaren Area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_runestones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_runestones)

Typical is this one from Uppland, U344:

"And Ulfr has taken three payments in England. That was the first that Tosti paid. Then Þorketill paid. Then Knútr paid."

Because Sweden was not a single kingdom, Danish kings especially had networks of thegns loyal to them. Those thegns in return had men under them who were keen to go on expeditions. If a thegn couldn't get on one expedition, he better get his men a place on another.

Two of the three chieftain graves at Repton, thought to be a graveyard of the Great Danish Army, had isotopic results consistent with an upbringing in Sweden. One of them was thought to have come from Birka.

Norwegians and Danes too went to Byzantium, though Britain and Ireland were more common. Both Harald Hardrade, King of Norway and Sweyn, King of Denmark, fought together in the Varingian Guard in their youth:

http://omacl.org/Heimskringla/hardrade1.html (http://omacl.org/Heimskringla/hardrade1.html)


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 24, 2012, 11:51:33 AM
20-30% of Iceland is U106 according to this Eupedia map.  What I'm trying to get my head around is if U106 was a fairly late push into Scandinavia, roughly when did that happen and isn't it a bit against the current (ie Germanicky types getting in their volkswagens heading south instead of north)?
http://www.disnorge.no/cms/system/files/offentlige_filer/Haplogroup-R1b-U106%20Eupedia.gif (http://www.disnorge.no/cms/system/files/offentlige_filer/Haplogroup-R1b-U106%20Eupedia.gif)

I'm just speculating, but according to the supposition I've put out, the settling of Iceland by the people who would remain and survive until today would have been done in later historical times.

What does the historical record tell us about the settling of Iceland?  I know they've had a bad climate period or two.

Quote from: Scott Mandia
Lamb (1995) reports that the population of Iceland fell from about 77,500, as indicated by tax records in 1095, to around 72,000 in 1311. By 1703 it was down to 50,000, and after some severe years of ice and volcanic eruptions in the 1780's it was only 38,000. Average height declined from 5'8" during the tenth century to 5'6" in the eighteenth century. Lamb (1995) attributes much of the decline in population to the colder climate and increased ice flow. The harvest years were so cold that there was little hay to feed the livestock so thousands of sheep died. During the MWP, Icelanders grew grain over much of the island but by the early 1200's only barley, a short-season grain, was being grown. Lamb (1995) notes that there was also an increase in glacier growth and subsequent flooding from bursts due to volcanic activity under the ice. By the 1500's conditions were so bad that all attempts at grain growing were abandoned and Icelanders turned solely to the sea for their survival. The shellfish near the shores were destroyed by increasing amounts of ice so cod fishing became the Icelanders main source of food and trade. As the cooler waters moved southward, the cod were forced farther southward until they were too far offshore for the primitive Icelandic ships to reach.

As the warmer climate brought the Vikings in increasing numbers to Greenland and Iceland, the cooler climate was equal to the task of decreasing those numbers. By the time Columbus set sail in 1492, Greenland was "dead" and Iceland was struggling to survive its failing crops, starvation, and a collapsing fishing industry.
http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/lia/decline_of_vikings_iceland.html

Are there known immigrations from Scandinavia to Iceland in the 1700's and 1800's?


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: A.D. on April 24, 2012, 09:45:50 PM
There was a program about the populating of Iceland on the BBC. (normally not overly fanciful the Beeb) apparently most of the women came from Ireland and Scotland nearly all the men came from Vikings. They showed the place of the first house etc. all backed up by DNA (supposedly).  Though they didn't state types etc but it was definitely Viking DNA. Oh have I missed something what is the Viking Y-DNA?


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Arwunbee on April 25, 2012, 10:58:28 PM
I've been finding U106 STR diversity as young in Scandinavia, when compared to the Low Countries, the rest of Continental Europe or the British Isles.

Perhaps there is an alignment with expansions of U106 and Germanic languages, but not necessarily out of Scandinavia.

Mike, I'm sure you've posted this somewhere before, but what is your variance/diversity figures for U106 in Scandinavia, Germany, Poland, and England?  Can you vis-a-vis them with P312 figures too?  I guess I'd like to know roughly what time P312 is thought to have arrived in Scandinavia, and see how U106 compares.

I'm keeping an open mind on U106's movements from its beginning.  Despite these brothers being almost the same age, it seems inconceivable and quite amazing is that P312 had a 2000 year old stranglehold on much of western Europe to the exclusion of his U106 brother, but that may well be the case...

With the neolithic farmers picking the eyes out of coastal mediterranean areas and hopping along the coast to estuaries of rivers, did P312 perhaps do the same, whilst U106 overlanded it much more slowly, and by the time they reach say Denmark, P312 is firmly entrenched with no niche for U106 to fill or exploit.  Does P312 take the wives and cattle of the neoliths, unburdened by having to drive its own cattle overland like U106 to the north?


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: gtc on April 26, 2012, 09:13:11 AM
IMO the key issue for U106 is to get many more Europeans with known ancestry tested.

Maybe we should nag Peter Forster to publish something on U106. I hear that Roots for Real has a huge European database. They advertise in German and French as well as English. 

Please do!


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: gtc on April 26, 2012, 09:21:36 AM
There was a program about the populating of Iceland on the BBC. (normally not overly fanciful the Beeb) apparently most of the women came from Ireland and Scotland nearly all the men came from Vikings. They showed the place of the first house etc. all backed up by DNA (supposedly).  Though they didn't state types etc but it was definitely Viking DNA. Oh have I missed something what is the Viking Y-DNA?

The problem with the term "Viking" is that it applies to many groups of Norse raiders and traders spanning a period of some 400+ years.

AFAIK, there is no declared "Viking haplogroup" although some would put forward I as a strong candidate while others prefer R1a.


Title: Re: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 26, 2012, 09:45:39 AM
I've been finding U106 STR diversity as young in Scandinavia, when compared to the Low Countries, the rest of Continental Europe or the British Isles.

Perhaps there is an alignment with expansions of U106 and Germanic languages, but not necessarily out of Scandinavia.

Mike, I'm sure you've posted this somewhere before, but what is your variance/diversity figures for U106 in Scandinavia, Germany, Poland, and England?  Can you vis-a-vis them with P312 figures too?  I guess I'd like to know roughly what time P312 is thought to have arrived in Scandinavia, and see how U106 compares.

I'm keeping an open mind on U106's movements from its beginning.  Despite these brothers being almost the same age, it seems inconceivable and quite amazing is that P312 had a 2000 year old stranglehold on much of western Europe to the exclusion of his U106 brother, but that may well be the case...

With the neolithic farmers picking the eyes out of coastal mediterranean areas and hopping along the coast to estuaries of rivers, did P312 perhaps do the same, whilst U106 overlanded it much more slowly, and by the time they reach say Denmark, P312 is firmly entrenched with no niche for U106 to fill or exploit.  Does P312 take the wives and cattle of the neoliths, unburdened by having to drive its own cattle overland like U106 to the north?

Perhaps P312's stranglehold over the Atlantic Fringe was not so much a stranglehold but just that U106 was far away from the Atlantic and found benefits in working with indigenous populations than in working with his own brothers.  (BTW, "working" may not be appropriately descriptive.)

Perhaps this is not a P312 versus U106 issue but just the nature of the expansion of the L11 subclades.  By that I mean let's consider down a level or two on the L11 family tree, and let's consider that L11 is a family of a sort.    It kind of looks like U152 ran up and down the Rhine valley down into Italy. L21 seems to have been predominate in Atlantic areas, particularly the northern ones. Meanwhile Z196's lineage was more successful in Iberia but also scattered quite a bit all over along with some P312* forms.  U106's Z381 and Z18 probably had slightly different distributions too to the east of most of the other L11 subclade expansions.