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Title: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Richard Rocca on March 28, 2012, 04:19:35 PM
About a month ago, the 1000 Genomes Project made the data available for their Iberian samples. Here is my analysis of the 27 samples. Please note that there were originally 74 samples, of which half were women, some were related (son-father pairs) and some did not have low coverage data.

Here is the breakdown: 

SNPFrequency
DF27+44.4% (12 of 27)
... DF27*14.8% (4 of 27)
... Z196+25.9% (7 of 27)
... Z225+3.7% (1 of 27)
L21+7.4% (2 of 27)
U152+7.4% (2 of 27)
L23*3.7% (1 of 27)
P312*3.7% (1 of 27)
U106+3.7% (1 of 27)
Total R1b70.4% (19 of 27)


- Not surprisingly, R1b is quite high (70.4%). This is in line with published papers (Busby, Myres, Cruciani, etc.).

- As can be seen, the overall frequency of DF27 is almost half the total (44.4%).

- DF27's main subclade, Z196, makes up a quarter of the Iberian male samples (25.9%).

- Originally I had found Z225 in Latin American samples and speculated that perhaps they may be the product of a colonial founder affect. With an Iberian Z225+ sample, that now seems very unlikely.

An update on the DF27 primers: Thomas has them working, but they are nested. Since nested primers require two PCR passes and is outside of their current single SNP ordering process, they are still trying to decide how to price it. Hopefully that will not deter them from making it available to the public. I'll keep you all informed when I get more info.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 28, 2012, 04:31:32 PM
About a month ago, the 1000 Genomes Project made the data available for their Iberian samples. Here is my analysis of the 27 samples. Please note that there were originally 74 samples, of which half were women, some were related (son-father pairs) and some did not have low coverage data.

Here is the breakdown: 

SNPFrequency
DF27+44.4% (12 of 27)
... DF27*14.8% (4 of 27)
... Z196+25.9% (7 of 27)
... Z225+3.7% (1 of 27)
L21+7.4% (2 of 27)
U152+7.4% (2 of 27)
L23*3.7% (1 of 27)
P312*3.7% (1 of 27)
U106+3.7% (1 of 27)
Total R1b70.4% (19 of 27)


- Not surprisingly, R1b is quite high (70.4%). This is in line with published papers (Busby, Myres, Cruciani, etc.).

- As can be seen, the overall frequency of DF27 is almost half the total (44.4%).

- DF27's main subclade, Z196, makes up a quarter of the Iberian male samples (25.9%).

- Originally I had found Z225 in Latin American samples and speculated that perhaps they may be the product of a colonial founder affect. With an Iberian Z225+ sample, that now seems very unlikely.

An update on the DF27 primers: Thomas has them working, but they are nested. Since nested primers require two PCR passes and is outside of their current single SNP ordering process, they are still trying to decide how to price it. Hopefully that will not deter them from making it available to the public. I'll keep you all informed when I get more info.
Wow, DF27 is a big one.  Must be old since Z196 has pretty good age all on its own.

Maybe this is finally a brother for U152 that can rival U152 in age and also do a lot for positioning P312's launch.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: razyn on March 28, 2012, 04:38:34 PM
- DF27's main subclade, Z196, makes up a quarter of the Iberian male samples (25.9%).

I don't mean to divert your thread for my pet project, but I thought a couple of new posts from the RootsWeb list might be germane -- showing some not entirely irrelevant stats from another source altogether:

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-03/1332872001

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-03/1332901384

Well, my impression anyway is that it's relevant.  You may get a different impression. 


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 28, 2012, 06:05:55 PM
About a month ago, the 1000 Genomes Project made the data available for their Iberian samples. Here is my analysis of the 27 samples. Please note that there were originally 74 samples, of which half were women, some were related (son-father pairs) and some did not have low coverage data.

Here is the breakdown: 

SNPFrequency
DF27+44.4% (12 of 27)
... DF27*14.8% (4 of 27)
... Z196+25.9% (7 of 27)
... Z225+3.7% (1 of 27)
L21+7.4% (2 of 27)
U152+7.4% (2 of 27)
L23*3.7% (1 of 27)
P312*3.7% (1 of 27)
U106+3.7% (1 of 27)
Total R1b70.4% (19 of 27)


- Not surprisingly, R1b is quite high (70.4%). This is in line with published papers (Busby, Myres, Cruciani, etc.).

- As can be seen, the overall frequency of DF27 is almost half the total (44.4%).

- DF27's main subclade, Z196, makes up a quarter of the Iberian male samples (25.9%).

- Originally I had found Z225 in Latin American samples and speculated that perhaps they may be the product of a colonial founder affect. With an Iberian Z225+ sample, that now seems very unlikely.

An update on the DF27 primers: Thomas has them working, but they are nested. Since nested primers require two PCR passes and is outside of their current single SNP ordering process, they are still trying to decide how to price it. Hopefully that will not deter them from making it available to the public. I'll keep you all informed when I get more info.
Wow, DF27 is a big one.  Must be old since Z196 has pretty good age all on its own.

Maybe this is finally a brother for U152 that can rival U152 in age and also do a lot for positioning P312's launch.

very interesting. Any variance for DF27 'all'?


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Richard Rocca on March 28, 2012, 07:42:02 PM
very interesting. Any variance for DF27 'all'?

No variance yet Alan. STR data is almost impossible to get from the 1000 Genomes data.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: GoldenHind on March 30, 2012, 03:37:44 PM
About a month ago, the 1000 Genomes Project made the data available for their Iberian samples. Here is my analysis of the 27 samples. Please note that there were originally 74 samples, of which half were women, some were related (son-father pairs) and some did not have low coverage data.

Here is the breakdown: 

SNPFrequency
DF27+44.4% (12 of 27)
... DF27*14.8% (4 of 27)
... Z196+25.9% (7 of 27)
... Z225+3.7% (1 of 27)
L21+7.4% (2 of 27)
U152+7.4% (2 of 27)
L23*3.7% (1 of 27)
P312*3.7% (1 of 27)
U106+3.7% (1 of 27)
Total R1b70.4% (19 of 27)


- Not surprisingly, R1b is quite high (70.4%). This is in line with published papers (Busby, Myres, Cruciani, etc.).

- As can be seen, the overall frequency of DF27 is almost half the total (44.4%).

- DF27's main subclade, Z196, makes up a quarter of the Iberian male samples (25.9%).

- Originally I had found Z225 in Latin American samples and speculated that perhaps they may be the product of a colonial founder affect. With an Iberian Z225+ sample, that now seems very unlikely.

An update on the DF27 primers: Thomas has them working, but they are nested. Since nested primers require two PCR passes and is outside of their current single SNP ordering process, they are still trying to decide how to price it. Hopefully that will not deter them from making it available to the public. I'll keep you all informed when I get more info.

Excellent work, and very instructive. I think it gives a much better picture than the Busby data.

It demonstrates the importance of the yet untested DF27 to the story of R1b. I am a little surprised that when DF27 is removed from what had previously been lumped together as P312*, the latter becomes quite rare in Iberia- in fact, the same amount as U106 (1 out of 27). Previously P312* had been thought to be very common in Iberia.

Should you have the time and energy, I think a similar breakdown of R1b subclades in two other 1000 Genomes areas- GBR and CEU- would make for a very interesting comparison.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 30, 2012, 05:03:33 PM
So DF 27 is the biggie in the Iberian Peninsula.  Very interesting.  Also very interesting that it seems to be the majority of what was once P312*.  Makes me wonder how much P312* elsewhere is DF27?   


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: GoldenHind on March 30, 2012, 05:20:30 PM
So DF 27 is the biggie in the Iberian Peninsula.  Very interesting.  Also very interesting that it seems to be the majority of what was once P312*.  Makes me wonder how much P312* elsewhere is DF27?   

Me too. Thus my request above.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: razyn on March 30, 2012, 05:39:27 PM
Makes me hope that its being the biggie in Iberia, in 2012, does not lead anyone to think it was there first, and spread subsequently to the Ukraine via Finland.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: GoldenHind on March 30, 2012, 05:55:06 PM
Makes me hope that its being the biggie in Iberia, in 2012, does not lead anyone to think it was there first, and spread subsequently to the Ukraine via Finland.

We already know that all DF27 subclades do not have an identical distribution, and that it has both northern and southern elements. Still, I doubt that will prevent some people from formulating a one-size-fits-all theory, which seems to be the general rule of thumb.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Jean M on March 30, 2012, 06:12:56 PM
Now, now folks. I was only wondering. No need for an acid attack. :)


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Richard Rocca on March 30, 2012, 06:39:17 PM
Makes me hope that its being the biggie in Iberia, in 2012, does not lead anyone to think it was there first, and spread subsequently to the Ukraine via Finland.

No, but there is nothing at this time to rule out an Iberian origin either. Let's not get hung up on a few samples far off from the core, as all P312 sub-clades exist in places like Finland and the Ukraine.

As for me, I would feel a little more comfortable with something in southern France (Rhone?).


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: razyn on March 30, 2012, 08:05:06 PM
As for me, I would feel a little more comfortable with something in southern France (Rhone?).
Well, I know... that was why I sent you a PM when I was in Aix, last October.  (Didn't find any academics at work, I was there on a weekend.)  Anyway, I have only this week become aware of the excellent Olivier Lemercier in Dijon -- where I had spent most of the preceding week.  It would have been nice to have a chat with him about Campaniformes, and all.  I did get to visit the archaeology museum there, twice.  Our stateside museums tend to be a little weak in Atlantic Bronze Age materials, so I hadn't previously seen much of it, apart from photos.

I'm trying my best not to get hung up, in my dotage, and I greatly admire Jean M.  I expect most of us here can still play nicely -- even if we may harbor doubts about the odd detail, here and there, of one another's theories.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Jean M on March 31, 2012, 03:33:31 PM
@ razyn - don't worry.  I am a great believer in dialogue. Theories need to be tested. But I haven't got a theory on this one yet. I was just thinking aloud.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: GoldenHind on March 31, 2012, 03:56:54 PM
Now, now folks. I was only wondering. No need for an acid attack. :)

I sincerely hope you didn't misinterpret my comment as an attack on you. As you know, we disagree on one or two things, but I am in general agreement with most of your thinking.

I was merely lamenting the tendency to ascribe a cultural/archaeological identity to a new R1b subclade before we know much of anything about it.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Jean M on March 31, 2012, 06:39:13 PM
@ Goldenhind

There are two principles here. Both are important.

1) We must distinguish between the general and the particular. It is wildly unlikely than any ethnic group was ever composed of just one haplogroup, except perhaps very briefly, if it began as a single family. We may see a correlation between the distribution of  haplogroup X and language Y or archaeological culture Z, but this does not mean that there is a one-to-one match now or ever was in the past. These broad correlations are interesting, because they can be used to track migrations and tell us something about the European past. But it would be huge mistake to assign an individual today by his haplogroup to an ethnicity which seems foreign to him. People are who they feel themselves to be. There could be all sorts of explanations to what at first seems a mismatch, from prehistoric wandering to very recent events. The quest for the individual is not the same as the quest for the Big Picture.  

2) The right to free speech and thought, which is vital in science. People must be allowed to speculate and argue and wonder. They may not be right. It is highly unlikely in fact that every early idea will be right, and quite likely that even some very late ideas after years of reflection will be wrong. But stopping all speculation for fear that it might be wrong is stopping the whole process of discovery. We lurch along a path towards knowledge through a good many wrong turnings. :)


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: GoldenHind on March 31, 2012, 10:11:01 PM
@ Goldenhind

There are two principles here. Both are important.

1) We must distinguish between the general and the particular. It is wildly unlikely than any ethnic group was ever composed of just one haplogroup, except perhaps very briefly, if it began as a single family. We may see a correlation between the distribution of  haplogroup X and language Y or archaeological culture Z, but this does not mean that there is a one-to-one match now or ever was in the past. These broad correlations are interesting, because they can be used to track migrations and tell us something about the European past. But it would be huge mistake to assign an individual today by his haplogroup to an ethnicity which seems foreign to him. People are who they feel themselves to be. There could be all sorts of explanations to what at first seems a mismatch, from prehistoric wandering to very recent events. The quest for the individual is not the same as the quest for the Big Picture.  

2) The right to free speech and thought, which is vital in science. People must be allowed to speculate and argue and wonder. They may not be right. It is highly unlikely in fact that every early idea will be right, and quite likely that even some very late ideas after years of reflection will be wrong. But stopping all speculation for fear that it might be wrong is stopping the whole process of discovery. We lurch along a path towards knowledge through a good many wrong turnings. :)


I wouldn't disagree at all with either point. I certainly concur that we don't know the full extent of ancient wanderings, or the full effect they may have had on modern populations.

Nor would I want to discorage speculation. I sometimes enagage in it myself. Speculation is part of the fun of this study. What I find problematic is when speculation becomes set in stone and turns into dogma, and any suggestion of any possible divergence from what may a general rule is attacked. I think this is especially the case when this science is so new, and the data we have at the moment so inadequate.

All I am attempting to do is suggest people keep an open mind until additional data helps better resolve some of these issues). As I have tried to emphasize over and over, when one becomes too devoted to any particular hypothesis, one's mind, even if subconsciously, will search for ways to interpret the facts in a way which reinforces the hypothesis.

Please note none of this is meant as personal criticism of you or any of your positions. But there are people on this and other forums who don't distinguish between the general and the particular.

Let me provide an example. There are people with Ydna ancestry in Ireland and Scotland who have been told their ancestors could only have got there as the result of a Germanic incursions or an NPE of some kind. As they perceive themselves as having a Celtic identity, this naturally upsets them. I am personally aware of several of them who now are refusing to get involved in any further SNP testing or research. I have seen pleas, some public, some private, from more than one person involved in researching U106 for suggestions on getting these people to change their minds and participate in further testing.  So I have little doubt that "one-size-fits-all" theories aren't helpful to expanding our knowledge.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Jean M on April 01, 2012, 05:48:49 AM
Goldenhind - I understand perfectly your concerns, and have understood them since you first expressed them to me back in early 2009, when I first joined DNA Forums. You don't want individuals to be upset in  the same way that you were obviously deeply upset to be assigned by your haplogroup (as it appeared) to Celtic status back in the days when people detected a rough Celtic/Germanic distinction between P312 and U106 and knew little at that stage of subclades. It has become a passion with you to take up the cause of those similarly distressed and to fight for delay in conclusions, since (as you see it) delay might bring similar relief that you took from the discovery that not all subclades of P312 have what we see today as a Celtic distribution.

But not all cases are similar to yours. Not all distressed individuals will ultimately find themselves in a subclade that fits what they see as their identity. Many will. As we get down to sub-sub-subclades that can be matched to surnames, many men who might currently protest violently against the idea, for example, that M222 could have an origin outside Ireland may find themselves in a subclade of M222 that was obviously Irish in origin, and so feel entirely happy with their haplogroup. :)

But what of the curious case of the haplogroup A1a (M31), found in a family of the Yorkshire surname Revis? Genealogical detective work established that the Revis males who carried A1a fitted onto two family trees going back to the 18th century in Britain. So this A1a does not mean that the family is a recent arrival in Britain. The surname goes back into the Middle Ages. I have speculated (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/surnames.shtml) about how the haplogroup could have arrived in Yorkshire. I could be completely wrong. But the important point here is that Y-DNA haplogroup does not equal ethnic identity. It is a tiny part of a person's genetic make-up. The haplogroup does not make the Revis family "foreign". It is just an interesting footnote to the family history. Fighting desperately to try to change the perception of the A1a haplogroup as mainly found in Africa is not the way forward. There isn't a "one-size-fits-all" answer to male haplogroup distress.  

I don't like people to be distressed any more than you do, but I have had over 20 years to become inured to the fact that almost every publication of mine upsets someone. And I'm talking here just about building history! People are upset because I have outdated their work, contradicted their views, or put paid to their much-loved theory that Queen Elizabeth slept in their house. The range of ways that I offend people in the pursuit of truth is infinite. But I am not going to stop aiming for the truth.    


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: razyn on April 01, 2012, 10:07:23 AM
There isn't a "one-size-fits-all" answer to male haplogroup distress.
Love it -- have we ever had a thread about MHD, or did you just make that up?


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Jean M on April 01, 2012, 10:31:27 AM
I made it up. And I admit to giggling. But it is a serious topic. We need to warn people against the nonsense of "certificates of ethnicity" based on Y-DNA.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: razyn on April 01, 2012, 01:07:33 PM
@ Jean M, that Yorkshire family with haplogroup A1a (Revis) could have gotten a bad case of MHD, but they actually got into the science of it, in a very positive way.  I had read their case study in a book about which you blogged -- back when you had a site to host your blog --  Surnames, DNA, & Family History (Oxford U. Press, 2011), 201-04.  And I see that it's a cited source on your aforementioned speculation page.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 01, 2012, 01:07:50 PM
I made it up. And I admit to giggling. But it is a serious topic. We need to warn people against the nonsense of "certificates of ethnicity" based on Y-DNA.

I admit to having MDH, and knowing is the first step to recovery. They say the first sign of MHD is associating one's own Y-DNA with a culture that made good use of battle axes, bows, prestige daggers, halberds, etc.

:)


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Jean M on April 01, 2012, 01:23:19 PM
@ Jean M, that Yorkshire family with haplogroup A1a (Revis) could have gotten a bad case of MHD, but they actually got into the science of it, in a very positive way.

Yes it was a pleasure to read. The case remains a bit of a mystery.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: razyn on April 01, 2012, 01:47:37 PM
They say the first sign of MHD is associating one's own Y-DNA with a culture that made good use of battle axes, bows, prestige daggers, halberds, etc.
One of the things I miss from DNA-Forums is your cool Ligurian helmet.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: GoldenHind on April 01, 2012, 04:18:56 PM
Goldenhind - I understand perfectly your concerns, and have understood them since you first expressed them to me back in early 2009, when I first joined DNA Forums. You don't want individuals to be upset in  the same way that you were obviously deeply upset to be assigned by your haplogroup (as it appeared) to Celtic status back in the days when people detected a rough Celtic/Germanic distinction between P312 and U106 and knew little at that stage of subclades. It has become a passion with you to take up the cause of those similarly distressed and to fight for delay in conclusions, since (as you see it) delay might bring similar relief that you took from the discovery that not all subclades of P312 have what we see today as a Celtic distribution.

    

I'm afraid your attempt to analyze the reasons for my positions is off the mark. When I first began this hobby, there were only three known SNPs below M269. The consensus view was that U106 were the Germanics, U198 pre-Anglo-Saxon Britons and U152 the Celts. The rest of us were designated "Atlantic facade aboriginals" with origins in paleolithic Iberia. I was deeply upset at first, but eventually came to terms with it, and began telling people I was a certified Hispanic. We were confidently informed at the time that there were no more R1b SNPs to be found.

A few years later P312 was discovered, and the consensus view altered to proclaim P312 as the new Celtic SNP. I became deeply suspicious of the flavour of the day and the practice of assigning Iron Age cultures to Bronze age SNPs, and decided to do a little research to determine if the division was valid. It soon became obvious that "Celtic" P312 was just about as common in Scandinavia as "Germanic" U106. With a little more work I discovered that Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse cluster was actually a subclade of P312, which again didn't fit the Germanic U106/Celtic P312 divide. So I have since taken on the mission of puncturing this dogma whenever I have found another bit of data which is inconsistent with it, and that has occurred with some frequency. I am hopeful that eventually we will identify SNPs which can be correctly divided into Celtic and Germanic haplogroups, but I am quite confident they will be some distance below P312 and U106.

It really has nothing to do with a desire for a Germanic origin for my Y line, as others beside yourself have suspected. In fact, the line from which I believe I may be descended is said to ultimately have a Breton origin, so a "Celtic" assignment for my subclade would not be a great disappointment to me. In fact, I was disappointed when I tested negative for L21, and even re-tested for L459 just to confirm that there hadn't been a lab error.  I have ancestors from England, Wales, Scotland, Denmark and Sweden, so it is patently obvious to me that I have roots in both Germanic and Celtic worlds, and that is an identity I am comfortable with.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Jean M on April 01, 2012, 05:25:46 PM
Happy to hear it Goldenhind. Peace to you.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: rms2 on April 01, 2012, 06:14:15 PM
When I ordered my first 37-marker y-dna test, R1b in the British Isles was considered "Celtic" (but Celtic only at second hand - in reality, it was "Basque"), and I1 (I1a then) was "invader" (Anglo-Saxon and Viking).

I actually hoped for an I1 result. I'll spare you all the background story, but I wanted to be a Viking. I would have settled for Anglo-Saxon, as they were pretty much the same folks in different time periods.

When I got my R1b1 result (that was as far as FTDNA's predictions went at the time - to P25), I experienced a little MHD, although not for long. About that time "S21" (U106) was coming into its own and offered the promise of entrance into Teutonic Valhalla for lowly R1b1 guys like me. Alas, I failed that test, as well, and was condemned with the rest of the Basques to an eternity in Niflheim.

I got over it, learned to look only on the unwrinkled side of Hel's face, and came to enjoy the truth, which is ultimately more fulfilling than any fantasy.



Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Dubhthach on April 01, 2012, 07:33:00 PM
When I ordered my first 37-marker y-dna test, R1b in the British Isles was considered "Celtic" (but Celtic only at second hand - in reality, it was "Basque"), and I1 (I1a then) was "invader" (Anglo-Saxon and Viking).

I actually hoped for an I1 result. I'll spare you all the background story, but I wanted to be a Viking. I would have settled for Anglo-Saxon, as they were pretty much the same folks in different time periods.

When I got my R1b1 result (that was as far as FTDNA's predictions went at the time - to P25), I experienced a little MHD, although not for long. About that time "S21" (U106) was coming into its own and offered the promise of entrance into Teutonic Valhalla for lowly R1b1 guys like me. Alas, I failed that test, as well, and was condemned with the rest of the Basques to an eternity in Niflheim.

I got over it, learned to look only on the unwrinkled side of Hel's face, and came to enjoy the truth, which is ultimately more fulfilling than any fantasy.



Valhalla bah, give me Tír na nÓg (land of the young) or Magh Meall (plain of joy) anyday.  ;)


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: rms2 on April 01, 2012, 08:11:33 PM
When I ordered my first 37-marker y-dna test, R1b in the British Isles was considered "Celtic" (but Celtic only at second hand - in reality, it was "Basque"), and I1 (I1a then) was "invader" (Anglo-Saxon and Viking).

I actually hoped for an I1 result. I'll spare you all the background story, but I wanted to be a Viking. I would have settled for Anglo-Saxon, as they were pretty much the same folks in different time periods.

When I got my R1b1 result (that was as far as FTDNA's predictions went at the time - to P25), I experienced a little MHD, although not for long. About that time "S21" (U106) was coming into its own and offered the promise of entrance into Teutonic Valhalla for lowly R1b1 guys like me. Alas, I failed that test, as well, and was condemned with the rest of the Basques to an eternity in Niflheim.

I got over it, learned to look only on the unwrinkled side of Hel's face, and came to enjoy the truth, which is ultimately more fulfilling than any fantasy.



Valhalla bah, give me Tír na nÓg (land of the young) or Magh Meall (plain of joy) anyday.  ;)

Well, now, I didn't know any better.

I did not realize how truly blessed I was to NOT be a Germanic!

I'm a happy-go-lucky, alcohol-tolerant Celt, and glad of it. :-)


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: OConnor on April 01, 2012, 08:20:19 PM
I wanted to be Irish, and not Norse.
 
When r1b types like L21 were found in Scandinavia it seemed people were quick to suggest they were descended from Irish slaves. I don't believe that. Not for the most part.

I have been reading some stuff about European Continental history to  try to see how peoples moved and settled.

I was surprised to read about things like the Franks, and the 30 years war, and the Spanish Reconquest. It's all new to me.



Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: NealtheRed on April 01, 2012, 10:58:57 PM

Well, now, I didn't know any better.

I did not realize how truly blessed I was to NOT be a Germanic!

I'm a happy-go-lucky, alcohol-tolerant Celt, and glad of it. :-)

I was reading something about the Celtic use of wolfhounds, and accounts by Romans (I think Caesar, actually) that remarked how Celts previously (I guess before Roman intervention) excelled the Germans in prowess. The Volcae were mentioned in particular, and Roman writers were amazed at how large the dogs were. It took a hardy race to breed and train them.

If Brennus stayed in Rome, we all may be speaking something very different today.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: rms2 on April 02, 2012, 07:51:57 AM

Well, now, I didn't know any better.

I did not realize how truly blessed I was to NOT be a Germanic!

I'm a happy-go-lucky, alcohol-tolerant Celt, and glad of it. :-)

I was reading something about the Celtic use of wolfhounds, and accounts by Romans (I think Caesar, actually) that remarked how Celts previously (I guess before Roman intervention) excelled the Germans in prowess. The Volcae were mentioned in particular, and Roman writers were amazed at how large the dogs were. It took a hardy race to breed and train them.

If Brennus stayed in Rome, we all may be speaking something very different today
.

Oh, yes, there is plenty to be happy and proud about being the y-dna descendant of a Celt.

It's just that as a kid I somehow picked up the idea that the Vikings were cool (probably from watching the anachronistic film, The Vikings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFes1Rl2l0Q), back in the 1960s). Later, as I grew up, I became interested in history and was fascinated by the Vikings. That interest led me to the Vikings' predecessors, the Germanic tribes of the Migration Period and beyond. I enjoyed the mythology and the saga literature.

But when I became a man - a middle aged man - with a full set of 67 STR markers and SNP test results under my belt, I had to put away childish things. ;-)


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: razyn on April 02, 2012, 10:52:17 AM
It's just that as a kid I somehow picked up the idea that the Vikings were cool (probably from watching the anachronistic film, The Vikings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFes1Rl2l0Q), back in the 1960s).
I still have the soundtrack album (LP), but I don't think I have a working turntable.  Stirring stuff.  I was a Viking for a while, until I found the error in my paper trail.  Then I was waffling between being a Saponi or a Nottoway Indian for a while, until I took a Y-DNA test.  (Heinegg was sooo wrong.)  This week I'm Z220+, and looking for a suitably cool and ancient ethnicity with which to identify, erroneously, as I await further SNP test results.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: NealtheRed on April 02, 2012, 10:55:24 AM
It's just that as a kid I somehow picked up the idea that the Vikings were cool (probably from watching the anachronistic film, The Vikings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFes1Rl2l0Q), back in the 1960s).
I still have the soundtrack album (LP), but I don't think I have a working turntable.  Stirring stuff.  I was a Viking for a while, until I found the error in my paper trail.  Then I was waffling between being a Saponi or a Nottoway Indian for a while, until I took a Y-DNA test.  (Heinegg was sooo wrong.)  This week I'm Z220+, and looking for a suitably cool and ancient ethnicity with which to identify, erroneously, as I await further SNP test results.

Razyn,

Is this why you left the Swedish Colonial Society!?


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: razyn on April 02, 2012, 12:13:56 PM
Razyn,

Is this why you left the Swedish Colonial Society!?
I was never a member, but yes, it's why I quit doing New Sweden research.  There was never any money in it, it ceased to be an act of filial piety, and it amounted to doing the hard part of the late Peter Craig's work for him, gratis.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: rms2 on April 02, 2012, 06:10:58 PM
It's just that as a kid I somehow picked up the idea that the Vikings were cool (probably from watching the anachronistic film, The Vikings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFes1Rl2l0Q), back in the 1960s).
I still have the soundtrack album (LP), but I don't think I have a working turntable.  Stirring stuff.  I was a Viking for a while, until I found the error in my paper trail.  Then I was waffling between being a Saponi or a Nottoway Indian for a while, until I took a Y-DNA test.  (Heinegg was sooo wrong.)  This week I'm Z220+, and looking for a suitably cool and ancient ethnicity with which to identify, erroneously, as I await further SNP test results.

I'm sure you'll find one! :-)

For me, it's the ancient Britons, since my closest matches all seem to come from the West Midlands of England or from Wales or have surnames that are common in those two places. Plus, when I had Dr. McDonald run my Family Finder raw data, he gave me a result of "100% English".

I noticed the British Celtic tribe the Cornovii were all over the area where my matches seem to cluster. They seem pretty cool and had their own auxiliary legion in the Roman army. So, until further notice, I'm Cornovian. ;-)


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: NealtheRed on April 02, 2012, 07:14:14 PM
It's just that as a kid I somehow picked up the idea that the Vikings were cool (probably from watching the anachronistic film, The Vikings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFes1Rl2l0Q), back in the 1960s).
I still have the soundtrack album (LP), but I don't think I have a working turntable.  Stirring stuff.  I was a Viking for a while, until I found the error in my paper trail.  Then I was waffling between being a Saponi or a Nottoway Indian for a while, until I took a Y-DNA test.  (Heinegg was sooo wrong.)  This week I'm Z220+, and looking for a suitably cool and ancient ethnicity with which to identify, erroneously, as I await further SNP test results.

I'm sure you'll find one! :-)

For me, it's the ancient Britons, since my closest matches all seem to come from the West Midlands of England or from Wales or have surnames that are common in those two places.

I noticed the British Celtic tribe the Cornovii were all over the area where my matches seem to cluster. They seem pretty cool and had their own auxiliary legion in the Roman army. So, until further notice, I'm Cornovian. ;-)

I can also relate since my closest matches have surnames indicative of West Midlands/Devon ancestry - Brittain, Bengough (Herefordshire). There is also the possible connection to Cornwall.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: rms2 on April 02, 2012, 09:17:55 PM
I read somewhere that the Celts in that area used the Ewart Park style sword at one time. Apparently a number of them have been found in the area. There are a couple of decent photos of the type here (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=17935).


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: NealtheRed on April 02, 2012, 10:25:36 PM
I read somewhere that the Celts in that area used the Ewart Park style sword at one time. Apparently a number of them have been found in the area. There are a couple of decent photos of the type here (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=17935).

That's a nice piece. Go figure; the fellow who makes it is named Neil. It looks similar to those Halstatt type swords, so I wonder if it is related?


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: spanjool on April 03, 2012, 11:10:49 AM
How many z220 or otherwise downstream z196 samples were found in the 1000 genomes project(either all or iberian)?
Earlier it was reported that 56 % of the Z196+ samples were in the Z270/Z274 range.
And is f.e. Z268 downstream Z209; or the other way around?
Hans van Vliet


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: razyn on April 03, 2012, 06:39:49 PM
I'm glad to see you on the right thread, and currently the most entertaining forum, Hans.

I look forward to whatever Rich Rocca has to say to someone who has dutifully tested (positive) for both Z268 and Z209.  Has he wasted about 20 €?  And, when two SNPs are on the same level, how is one supposed to know which one to test?


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 03, 2012, 09:29:19 PM
I'm glad to see you on the right thread, and currently the most entertaining forum, Hans.

I look forward to whatever Rich Rocca has to say to someone who has dutifully tested (positive) for both Z268 and Z209.  Has he wasted about 20 €?  And, when two SNPs are on the same level, how is one supposed to know which one to test?

Since there is no real scientific way of knowing if one is above or below the other, I just tell folks to test the lowest number. Since most people never test for more than one SNP per level, it keep things cleaner if most are tested for the same SNP.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: spanjool on April 04, 2012, 12:47:59 AM

Since there is no real scientific way of knowing if one is above or below the other, I just tell folks to test the lowest number. Since most people never test for more than one SNP per level, it keep things cleaner if most are tested for the same SNP.

So all the SNPs mentioned in one cluster: f.e. Z209, Z215..Z296 are on the same level and they all were also positive for Z294 above them.
Otherwise in all 1000 genomes samples tested positive for Z220 all the members from this cluster were found.
And not f.e. just one.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 04, 2012, 09:22:57 AM

Since there is no real scientific way of knowing if one is above or below the other, I just tell folks to test the lowest number. Since most people never test for more than one SNP per level, it keep things cleaner if most are tested for the same SNP.

So all the SNPs mentioned in one cluster: f.e. Z209, Z215..Z296 are on the same level and they all were also positive for Z294 above them.
Otherwise in all 1000 genomes samples tested positive for Z220 all the members from this cluster were found.
And not f.e. just one.

Correct,  Z209 and the others are at the same level and therefore are all Z294. All Z220+ folks need not test for any of the ones in the Z209 branch as they will be positive for all of them. The only value for testing one kit for them is to get them properly placed on the ISOGG tree.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: razyn on April 04, 2012, 10:21:41 AM
Since there is no real scientific way of knowing if one is above or below the other, I just tell folks to test the lowest number. Since most people never test for more than one SNP per level, it keep things cleaner if most are tested for the same SNP.

It would make sense to me if FTDNA didn't offer tests for SNPs that don't sort anything, but did offer tests for SNPs that do.  But I don't know how to tell which is which.  I don't see how project administrators, as a class, could be expected to know.

There is also some funny business going on with STR markers -- particularly on palindromic STRs (385, 464 etc.) -- the causes of which apparently aren't SNPs, but are binary in nature.

There are also SNPs, real ones, that are not part of the tree diagram because they occur in more than one haplogroup.  Yet they are both binary and inherited, so they must cause branching of the respective trees in which they occur.  The one I have is L484, which has been found "derived near" E1b1a1, J2b2, R-P312 (me, to name but one), and T.  There are other SNPs with a similar history of haplogroup wandering; examples are L69, L86, and L239.  I only know about them from a spreadsheet Adriano Squecco shared with me -- so those are based on 23andMe results, and in my case at least, don't show up in the displayed SNP results on FTDNA projects.  (I assume that would be true for any SNP results tested and found at another company.  But I did transfer those autosomal, Illumina chip v3 results to FTDNA -- so they could discover it again, if anybody cared.  Try rs9785797.)

It seems to me as a layman (in this field, anyway) that any inherited binary event would have implications for things like prehistoric migration sleuthing; percentages in an isolated population that reveal specific STR cluster patterns; the appearance of star charts from Network analysis; and perhaps TMRCA calculation.  Some of that might even turn out to be important.

Or, not.  If somebody knows better, kindly reassure me.  Thanks in advance.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 04, 2012, 11:18:31 AM
Since there is no real scientific way of knowing if one is above or below the other, I just tell folks to test the lowest number. Since most people never test for more than one SNP per level, it keep things cleaner if most are tested for the same SNP.

It would make sense to me if FTDNA didn't offer tests for SNPs that don't sort anything, but did offer tests for SNPs that do.  But I don't know how to tell which is which.  I don't see how project administrators, as a class, could be expected to know.

There is also some funny business going on with STR markers -- particularly on palindromic STRs (385, 464 etc.) -- the causes of which apparently aren't SNPs, but are binary in nature.

There are also SNPs, real ones, that are not part of the tree diagram because they occur in more than one haplogroup.  Yet they are both binary and inherited, so they must cause branching of the respective trees in which they occur.  The one I have is L484, which has been found "derived near" E1b1a1, J2b2, R-P312 (me, to name but one), and T.  There are other SNPs with a similar history of haplogroup wandering; examples are L69, L86, and L239.  I only know about them from a spreadsheet Adriano Squecco shared with me -- so those are based on 23andMe results, and in my case at least, don't show up in the displayed SNP results on FTDNA projects.  (I assume that would be true for any SNP results tested and found at another company.  But I did transfer those autosomal, Illumina chip v3 results to FTDNA -- so they could discover it again, if anybody cared.  Try rs9785797.)

It seems to me as a layman (in this field, anyway) that any inherited binary event would have implications for things like prehistoric migration sleuthing; percentages in an isolated population that reveal specific STR cluster patterns; the appearance of star charts from Network analysis; and perhaps TMRCA calculation.  Some of that might even turn out to be important.

Or, not.  If somebody knows better, kindly reassure me.  Thanks in advance.

The line of 'worth' is blurry for some of these fast mutating SNPs such as L69 and they should be treated more like STRs or place holders for yet undiscovered SNPs. I know this has been the case in two separate branches of L21.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: GoldenHind on April 04, 2012, 02:06:33 PM
Happy to hear it Goldenhind. Peace to you.

Thank you. I'm afraid I have a tendency to be one of those maverick types for whom doctrinaire conclusions prove to be an irresistable challenge. I can assure you that this tendency is not confined to genetics, and is likely to continue long after the puzzle of my subclade is finally resolved (assuming it ever is).


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: rms2 on April 04, 2012, 04:48:16 PM
Is it entirely fair to imply that those who look at the evidence and reach a conclusion that differs from one's own are necessarily being "doctrinaire"?

We disagree on U106 in Britain, for example. I think the evidence is overwhelming for my position, but it's hardly a matter of rigid "doctrine".



Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: GoldenHind on April 04, 2012, 08:53:32 PM
Is it entirely fair to imply that those who look at the evidence and reach a conclusion that differs from one's own are necessarily being "doctrinaire"?

We disagree on U106 in Britain, for example. I think the evidence is overwhelming for my position, but it's hardly a matter of rigid "doctrine".



In my opinion the beliefs that all U106 was confined to the area of the Nordic Bronze Age culture and hence is necessarily of Germanic origin, or that no U106 could have reached Britain before the Anglo-Saxons, have become doctrines. While they could ultimately both prove to be correct, as far as I am concerned, they remain unproven at present.

The earlier belief that all of P312 is Celtic seems to be weakening, but I suspect it still has its supporters. I have seen too many claims that all of P312 in Scandinavia is a result of Viking slave taking or modern migration to think it has totally been put to rest.

My use of the term "doctrinaire" applies to the theories, not necessarily to those who accept them. I use the term to mean a theory from which dissent will not be tolerated.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: rms2 on April 04, 2012, 09:05:22 PM
Is it entirely fair to imply that those who look at the evidence and reach a conclusion that differs from one's own are necessarily being "doctrinaire"?

We disagree on U106 in Britain, for example. I think the evidence is overwhelming for my position, but it's hardly a matter of rigid "doctrine".



In my opinion the beliefs that all U106 is of Germanic origin, or that no U106 could have reached Britain before the Anglo-Saxons, have both become doctrinal.
They may even both prove to be correct, but as far as I am concerned, they remain unproven at present.

The earlier belief that all of P312 is Celtic seems to be weakening, but I suspect it still has its supporters. My use of the term "doctrinaire" applies to the theories, not necessarily to those who accept them. I use the term to mean a theory from which dissent will not be tolerated.


Well, I don't visit all dna chat forums, but I don't know of any where "dissent will not be tolerated".

A good argument is generally enjoyed by most of us.

Of course, the idea that U106 is mostly Germanic is unproven, although I think the evidence for that opinion is overwhelming. But "doctrinal"?

The idea that nothing much can be said about U106 until every possible genetic stone has been overturned - and when are we to expect that to finally be accomplished? - is as much a "belief" and a "doctrine" as the opinion that U106 is mostly Germanic.

I wonder who ever claimed that "all of P312 is Celtic". I don't recall anyone ever doing that.

The same goes for U106. Who ever said all of it is Germanic? Every last bit, without exception? I never claimed that, nor would I.

I think you are mischaracterizing the arguments you apparently find so offensive.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Arwunbee on April 05, 2012, 08:26:42 AM
I'm sure one of the factory workers will discover that a couple of the red U106 M&Ms made their way into the green P312 M&M packets, but I don't see quality control bothering to rewrite whole chapters on the history of green M&M packaging procedures.

But what interests me is this:

The P312 McDonalds restaurants appear to have kept their monopoly on the British Isles burger market pretty much up til the 5th century AD.  The U106 Burger King restaurants have clearly made inroads from the 5th century onwards, particularly in the English market.

What I find incredible/amazing/interesting is that these two restaurant chains are roughly coetaneous, yet one pretty much dominated the British Isles burger market BC (Before Cheeseburger).  We hear about how disorganised the British Isles celtic tribes were.  Anyone would look that way vis-a-vis the Romans.  But I think (and I speak as a U106 Burger King franchisee) some credit has to go to the P312 McDonalds restaurants for holding on for as long as they did.  Or did they?  Were P312 really that long in the British Isles, say long before 1000 BC?

Either Burger King was totally caught up in the northern European plain for a long time, or maybe McDonalds hasn't been in the Isles for as long as some people might think.  I just don't see what major taste advantage they had over Burger King's burgers.  Was it simply first mover advantage > better climate > better land > better cattle > better beef patties > more and better fed upsized warriors?

Did Burger King just simply have the bad luck of a different route towards Western Europe and missed the boat?




Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: rms2 on April 05, 2012, 10:09:32 AM
Maybe some one of us could start a new thread on U106 versus P312 in the British Isles to discuss this?

I know I am as guilty as anyone of taking threads off topic, including this one, but maybe we could try to get it back on topic?

We already have one thread on the Begoña Martinez-Cruz study of Iberian M269 that has gone completely off the road and into the Indo-European labyrinth.



Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: GoldenHind on April 05, 2012, 03:44:31 PM
Is it entirely fair to imply that those who look at the evidence and reach a conclusion that differs from one's own are necessarily being "doctrinaire"?

We disagree on U106 in Britain, for example. I think the evidence is overwhelming for my position, but it's hardly a matter of rigid "doctrine".



In my opinion the beliefs that all U106 is of Germanic origin, or that no U106 could have reached Britain before the Anglo-Saxons, have both become doctrinal.
They may even both prove to be correct, but as far as I am concerned, they remain unproven at present.

The earlier belief that all of P312 is Celtic seems to be weakening, but I suspect it still has its supporters. My use of the term "doctrinaire" applies to the theories, not necessarily to those who accept them. I use the term to mean a theory from which dissent will not be tolerated.


Well, I don't visit all dna chat forums, but I don't know of any where "dissent will not be tolerated".

A good argument is generally enjoyed by most of us.

Of course, the idea that U106 is mostly Germanic is unproven, although I think the evidence for that opinion is overwhelming. But "doctrinal"?

The idea that nothing much can be said about U106 until every possible genetic stone has been overturned - and when are we to expect that to finally be accomplished? - is as much a "belief" and a "doctrine" as the opinion that U106 is mostly Germanic.

I wonder who ever claimed that "all of P312 is Celtic". I don't recall anyone ever doing that.

The same goes for U106. Who ever said all of it is Germanic? Every last bit, without exception? I never claimed that, nor would I.

I think you are mischaracterizing the arguments you apparently find so offensive.

I have never said I find arguments that all of U106 is Germanic or that all of P312 is Celtic to be offensive. While I do occasionally find them annoying, it is more accurate to say I find they pose a challenge for me.

Nor have I ever said that one can't say anything about the general nature of U106 or P312. Obviously a considerable part of U106 is of Germanic origin and a large part of P312 of Celtic origin. What becomes problematic for me, as mentioned above, is extending the general rule to the particular example. Thus whenever U106 is found in an unlikely area, an explanation must be found which is consistent with a Germanic origin. The alternative that some U106 may not actually be of Germanic origin is either not seriously considered or dismissed out of hand.

While you may not be one of them, I can assure you that there are those who will perform similar mental gymnastics to explain any P312 in non-Celtic areas. I often butted heads with them on the DNA forum. I think Mike W. will remember some examples where I was attacked for suggesting some P312 was likely present in Scandinavia since the Bronze Age.

All I am saying is that I think it is erroneous to view U106 as monolithic in the absence of a full analysis of its subclades. I don't know why this should be such a revolutionary proposal and engender so much hostility.

We can certainly agree that we have completely hijacked this topic. So if anyone wants to say more on the issue, let us agree that it should be done on a new topic. I think, however, I have said all I intend to say on the subject.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: negative_control on April 10, 2012, 08:06:53 PM
This thread seems to have drifted somewhat...

In an attempt to get it back on track-

This is a pretty small sample (27 men) from a very large and diverse region. It is probably rather early to say much about DF27 until it is tested across a larger Iberian sample and compared with Europe as a whole. (nb. this is not a cue for a deluge of celt-centric replies)

If we buy into "allele surfing during a population range expansion" as a mechanism, then DF27 might originate somewhere more central.

Does finding an Iberian Z225+ rule out a colonial expansion in latin america? I would say it was entirely consistent with it.






About a month ago, the 1000 Genomes Project made the data available for their Iberian samples. Here is my analysis of the 27 samples. Please note that there were originally 74 samples, of which half were women, some were related (son-father pairs) and some did not have low coverage data.

Here is the breakdown: 

SNPFrequency
DF27+44.4% (12 of 27)
... DF27*14.8% (4 of 27)
... Z196+25.9% (7 of 27)
... Z225+3.7% (1 of 27)
L21+7.4% (2 of 27)
U152+7.4% (2 of 27)
L23*3.7% (1 of 27)
P312*3.7% (1 of 27)
U106+3.7% (1 of 27)
Total R1b70.4% (19 of 27)


- Not surprisingly, R1b is quite high (70.4%). This is in line with published papers (Busby, Myres, Cruciani, etc.).

- As can be seen, the overall frequency of DF27 is almost half the total (44.4%).

- DF27's main subclade, Z196, makes up a quarter of the Iberian male samples (25.9%).

- Originally I had found Z225 in Latin American samples and speculated that perhaps they may be the product of a colonial founder affect. With an Iberian Z225+ sample, that now seems very unlikely.

An update on the DF27 primers: Thomas has them working, but they are nested. Since nested primers require two PCR passes and is outside of their current single SNP ordering process, they are still trying to decide how to price it. Hopefully that will not deter them from making it available to the public. I'll keep you all informed when I get more info.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 10, 2012, 09:55:56 PM
This thread seems to have drifted somewhat...

In an attempt to get it back on track-

This is a pretty small sample (27 men) from a very large and diverse region. It is probably rather early to say much about DF27 until it is tested across a larger Iberian sample and compared with Europe as a whole. (nb. this is not a cue for a deluge of celt-centric replies)

If we buy into "allele surfing during a population range expansion" as a mechanism, then DF27 might originate somewhere more central.

Does finding an Iberian Z225+ rule out a colonial expansion in latin america? I would say it was entirely consistent with it.

I don't see any reason to think that the Iberian P312* found in countless studies isn't DF27, especially those studies that have associated SRY2627 and M153. That is saying a lot.

The chances of one in 27 Iberian men testing Z225+ and his ancestor being the founder of 6 Latin American men from different countries seem very unlikely. The more likely scenario is that Z225 is a regional Iberian SNP.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: realdealt on June 13, 2012, 01:03:24 PM
Two more persons of Iberian ancestry have tested DF27+ (positive). They are:
Sánchez - kit 193923
Zaldívar - kit 149550

Both are in the R-P312 project.

Robert


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: realdealt on June 13, 2012, 02:20:12 PM
I hesitated to mention this here since it is not an Iberian, but there is another DF27+ to be found in the Italy DNA Project. The surname is Petrone, kit N104559 with origins in Acri Cosenza, Italy which is in far southern Italy.

Robert


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 20, 2012, 02:38:49 AM
Richard R, I just want to make sure I understood this because ISOGG was thinking that Z225 is parallel to DF27.

There is at least one man DF27+ man in the 1000 HG Project who is Z225/Z229+ and there is at least one other DF27+ man who is Z225/Z229- ?
Right?  That's how we'd know Z225 is downstream of DF27.

About a month ago, the 1000 Genomes Project made the data available for their Iberian samples. Here is my analysis of the 27 samples. Please note that there were originally 74 samples, of which half were women, some were related (son-father pairs) and some did not have low coverage data.

Here is the breakdown:  

SNPFrequency
DF27+44.4% (12 of 27)
... DF27*14.8% (4 of 27)
... Z196+25.9% (7 of 27)
... Z225+3.7% (1 of 27)
L21+7.4% (2 of 27)
U152+7.4% (2 of 27)
L23*3.7% (1 of 27)
P312*3.7% (1 of 27)
U106+3.7% (1 of 27)
Total R1b70.4% (19 of 27)


- Not surprisingly, R1b is quite high (70.4%). This is in line with published papers (Busby, Myres, Cruciani, etc.).

- As can be seen, the overall frequency of DF27 is almost half the total (44.4%).

- DF27's main subclade, Z196, makes up a quarter of the Iberian male samples (25.9%).

- Originally I had found Z225 in Latin American samples and speculated that perhaps they may be the product of a colonial founder affect. With an Iberian Z225+ sample, that now seems very unlikely.

An update on the DF27 primers: Thomas has them working, but they are nested. Since nested primers require two PCR passes and is outside of their current single SNP ordering process, they are still trying to decide how to price it. Hopefully that will not deter them from making it available to the public. I'll keep you all informed when I get more info.
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Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: razyn on June 20, 2012, 07:50:30 AM
There was just one Z225 in the Iberian samples, but according to Henry Bohemia there were six in Puerto Rican samples (in 1000 genomes) in which Iberian ancestry is a pretty reasonable guess.

There are a lot of 1418 guys in the Puerto Rican surname project, mostly under P312 Needs Deep Clade, but six or eight also under M269 ditto.  Have you mined this one for guys to "encourage" to test Z225 (and join the R-P312 project)?  The 1418 guys may not be the ones to ask, I know we are looking for DF27+ with Z196- but I don't yet know what STR signature might apply.  

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/puertoricansurname/default.aspx?section=yresults

Some of them may already be the 1000 Genomes guys, I don't know how to correlate the ID numbers of that project (when they are even known) with FTDNA kits.  Our friend Arnault Sallaberry (M153) is in the PR surname project, but he wouldn't be Z225.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Richard Rocca on June 20, 2012, 08:35:25 AM
Z225 forms its own branch below DF27. The 1KG samples were from Iberia, Puerto Rico, Mexico and Colombia.

To date, no FTDNA samples have tested Z225+, so I don't think they will include it in their tree until someone does. Unfortunately Z225 to date has been tested almost entirely by people of non-Iberian ancestry.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 20, 2012, 09:23:42 AM
Z225 forms its own branch below DF27. The 1KG samples were from Iberia, Puerto Rico, Mexico and Colombia.

To date, no FTDNA samples have tested Z225+, so I don't think they will include it in their tree until someone does. Unfortunately Z225 to date has been tested almost entirely by people of non-Iberian ancestry.

Thanks, Richard.

As best I can keep up, I have posted a DF27 phylogenetic descendancy tree chart. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/ It is also saved in the Files section as a .jpg file.
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/Haplogroup_Tree_Chart_R-P312.jpg)

SRY2627 is M167 and has been called an Iberian clade although we find it in places like Germany, Benelux and Isles as well.  It's brother, L165, is the one that Ethnoancestry called a Norse marker for its northern Scottish Isles/Scandinavian connection.

Z209 is where the North/South cluster fits. It is quite far flung across Europe and we can see at the bottom that this is where M153, the Basque marker, fits in.

Apparently Z225 is Iberian, but we don't know that much about it yet.

DF27 is every bit the peer of L21 and U152.  I'd love to see extensive testing of it and its subclaces in Iberia, France and possibly, Italy.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: gtc on June 22, 2012, 10:40:27 AM
But the important point here is that Y-DNA haplogroup does not equal ethnic identity.

It ought to be a condition of signing up to this and other GG forums that each member agrees to that statement.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Arch Y. on June 22, 2012, 03:06:28 PM
Z225 forms its own branch below DF27. The 1KG samples were from Iberia, Puerto Rico, Mexico and Colombia.

To date, no FTDNA samples have tested Z225+, so I don't think they will include it in their tree until someone does. Unfortunately Z225 to date has been tested almost entirely by people of non-Iberian ancestry.

Thanks, Richard.

As best I can keep up, I have posted a DF27 phylogenetic descendancy tree chart. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/ It is also saved in the Files section as a .jpg file.
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/Haplogroup_Tree_Chart_R-P312.jpg)

SRY2627 is M167 and has been called an Iberian clade although we find it in places like Germany, Benelux and Isles as well.  It's brother, L165, is the one that Ethnoancestry called a Norse marker for its northern Scottish Isles/Scandinavian connection.

Z209 is where the North/South cluster fits. It is quite far flung across Europe and we can see at the bottom that this is where M153, the Basque marker, fits in.

Apparently Z225 is Iberian, but we don't know that much about it yet.

DF27 is every bit the peer of L21 and U152.  I'd love to see extensive testing of it and its subclaces in Iberia, France and possibly, Italy.

If DF27, L176.2, M-153, SRY2627 are essentially putative clades for Iberia or specific regions of Iberia, what should we make of it?

Arch


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: razyn on June 22, 2012, 03:50:23 PM
If DF27, L176.2, M-153, SRY2627 are essentially putative clades for Iberia or specific regions of Iberia, what should we make of it?

Nothing, that's just blowing putative smoke.  One might think that, looking at a 2011 (or earlier) ISOGG tree that was unaware of DF27; but not if you look at Mike's picture imbedded in your post (which is based on very current testing and discussion of it) and actually think about what it means.  DF27, Z196, the line below it through Z220, and most of L176.2 are spread clear across Europe -- from its presently Slavic eastern parts through its westernmost fringes -- with some later subclades showing regional pooling, including the line from Z178 down in Iberia; some fairly high percentage of SRY2627, and as far as we know Z225, seem also strongest there.  On the other hand, L165 seems much more northern.  It seems reasonable to expect that there will be more branches discovered, with more testing (especially WTY and full genome testing) that isn't biased toward specific areas of western Europe from which many immigrants came to the Americas long ago.  Some of the putative branches we don't know about may be in places currently known as Romania, Ukraine, Poland, and the regions around them.

All of which is too putative for words; but the SNPs line up the way Mike's chart indicates.  That has a sequential frame, with geographical implications, and the SNPs themselves patently don't spread from ice age Iberia eastward.


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 22, 2012, 04:18:18 PM
If DF27, L176.2, M-153, SRY2627 are essentially putative clades for Iberia or specific regions of Iberia, what should we make of it?

Arch, do you think you can recruit the L176.2+ SRY2627- L165- guys to test for for Z262?

Z262 is downstream of L176.2 and upstream of SRY2627. R-Z262* guys would be brothers to SRY2627 guys.  I'm just looking for some kind of pattern. I know of Z262* one guy right now. He is from England.

We have an L176.2* (L176.2+ Z262- L165-) guy from Spain as well as one from Germany.

If we could find SRY2627's L165+ cousins somewhere else besides the Isles and Scandinavia that might be helpful too, particularly from Spain with unusual haplotypes. We do have one from Germany but one does not a trend make.

There must have been a Z262+ SRY2627- guy in the 1000 HG project. Where was he from?


Title: Re: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)
Post by: Arch Y. on June 23, 2012, 01:18:12 AM
If DF27, L176.2, M-153, SRY2627 are essentially putative clades for Iberia or specific regions of Iberia, what should we make of it?

Arch, do you think you can recruit the L176.2+ SRY2627- L165- guys to test for for Z262?

Z262 is downstream of L176.2 and upstream of SRY2627. R-Z262* guys would be brothers to SRY2627 guys.  I'm just looking for some kind of pattern. I know of Z262* one guy right now. He is from England.

We have an L176.2* (L176.2+ Z262- L165-) guy from Spain as well as one from Germany.

If we could find SRY2627's L165+ cousins somewhere else besides the Isles and Scandinavia that might be helpful too, particularly from Spain with unusual haplotypes. We do have one from Germany but one does not a trend make.

There must have been a Z262+ SRY2627- guy in the 1000 HG project. Where was he from?

Victor Mas would be a good candidate. Perhaps we could use some of the funds in the SRY2627 project to test him and a couple of other L176.2 guys. The money is just kind of sitting there doing nothing. I haven't seen Victor around in a while. I would be interested in Isidro's results, so waiting to hear on his. FYI. Albert Pleis also tested for downstream clades too.

Arch