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Title: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: JeanL on March 13, 2012, 03:23:01 PM
This recently published study:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/12/molbev.mss091.abstract

On the supplementary table-S3a list the following frequencies for R-M269+ subclades in different Basques and nonBasque populations:

R-M153

Gascony

Bigorre: 2/44
Bearn: 9/56
Chalosse: 2/58

French Basque

Lapurdi/Baztan: 5/44
Lapurdi Nafarroa: 10/66
Zuberoa: 23/53

Navarra

Roncal and Salazar valleys: 9/53
Central Western Nafarroa:10/60
North Western Nafarroa: 8/51

Spanish Basque

Gipuzkoa: 5/47
SouthWestern Gipuzkoa: 4/57
Araba: 2/51
Bizkaia: 7/57
Western Bizkaia: 3/19

North Spain

Cantabria: 0/18
Burgos: 2/20
La Rioja: 3/54
North Aragon: 5/27

I'll add more subclades later...


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: Richard Rocca on March 13, 2012, 04:31:29 PM
What other subclades were tested?


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: JeanL on March 13, 2012, 04:39:48 PM
Here is a picture of Table S3a:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NxERymyEwD8/T1-EomYMZ_I/AAAAAAAAEmI/FpQMcnmLs0Y/s1600/yhaplogroup_basque.jpg


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 13, 2012, 07:49:26 PM
Very interesting.  Unless I am misinterpreting this.  L21 seems to be around 20% of the entire population in several of these areas.  That is surprisingly high.  Sort of suggests that the L21 peak in Iberian terms in that area noted in hobby testing is real.  If I recall Myres et al (who didnt cover the Basque area) did find L21 was by far the highest in Iberia in neighbouring Santander. We know NW France is also very high in L21.  We also know from Myres that France West has a decent L21 showing.  I think that means centre-west.  That is the 3rd independent bit of evidence to suggest that L21 in Iberia is concentrated in area in and adjacent to the Basque country.     


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: rms2 on March 13, 2012, 08:02:58 PM
I noticed that, too. The question now is what does it mean for L21?

It would be nice if we had the haplotypes. I haven't had a chance to look at that paper yet. Are they there?


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 13, 2012, 08:08:34 PM
Not sure what I make of it.  I hope people dont get hung up too much on the Basque thing.  They are the exception, not the rule, in the L21 world in terms of their language and L21 may have had no role in the language. 


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 14, 2012, 01:27:11 AM
Not sure what I make of it.  I hope people dont get hung up too much on the Basque thing.  They are the exception, not the rule, in the L21 world in terms of their language and L21 may have had no role in the language.  
I think the Basques have ancestry to Pre-Neolithic times in Europe, just that the P312 (including L21) lineages were not among them.

It is now appearing obvious that on the mt DNA side there is some continuity going back in time.  
"The Basque Paradigm: Genetic Evidence of a Maternal Continuity in the Franco-Cantabrian Region since Pre-Neolithic Times"
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297%2812%2900032-8

I think there may be some remnants of Y DNA lineages from Pre-Neolithic times as well, but they are likely to be something like I-M26.
Wikipedia says
Quote
Haplogroup I-M26 is practically absent east of France and Italy, while it is found at low but significant frequencies outside of Sardinia in the Balearic Islands, Castile-Leon, the Basque Country, the Pyrenees, southern and western France, and parts of the Maghreb in North Africa, Great Britain, and Ireland. Haplogroup I-M26 appears to be the only subclade of Haplogroup I found among the Basques, but appears to be found at somewhat higher frequencies among the general populations of Castile-Leon in Spain and Béarn in France than among the population of ethnic Basques[citation needed]. The M26 mutation is found in native males inhabiting every geographic region where megaliths may be found, including such far-flung and culturally disconnected regions as the Canary Islands, the Balearic Isles, Corsica, Ireland, and Sweden

Lineages that were Pre-Neolithic should have leaked a little more broadly down into Iberia and the Mediterranean than L21 did.

The more I think about it, the more this shows R-L11 subclades must not have been Pre-Neolithic, and was only a late incursion.  The whole distribution of L21, U152, U106, etc. is fairly segregated and contiguous... not patchy like some pieces of hg I.

P312 is somewhat the exception, but we should not view P312 as just P312. It is really L21, U152, Z196 and unknown other lineages, all that appear to be Bronze Age TMRCAs.

Z196 is the most far flung (and patchy) of the known subclades of P312 so it is the exceptional part of P312. Geographically, one could make the case that Z196 was older but it can't be older than the interclade MRCA for P312 and U106. Z196 does stretch down through out the Iberian Peninsula.   umm...  can anyone say Celtiberian?  or Urnfield maybe ?



Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: Richard Rocca on March 14, 2012, 09:08:17 AM
Not sure what I make of it.  I hope people dont get hung up too much on the Basque thing.  They are the exception, not the rule, in the L21 world in terms of their language and L21 may have had no role in the language.  
I think the Basques have ancestry to Pre-Neolithic times in Europe, just that the P312 (including L21) lineages were not among them.

It is now appearing obvious that on the mt DNA side there is some continuity going back in time.  
"The Basque Paradigm: Genetic Evidence of a Maternal Continuity in the Franco-Cantabrian Region since Pre-Neolithic Times"
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297%2812%2900032-8

I think there may be some remnants of Y DNA lineages from Pre-Neolithic times as well, but they are likely to be something like I-M26.
Wikipedia says
Quote
Haplogroup I-M26 is practically absent east of France and Italy, while it is found at low but significant frequencies outside of Sardinia in the Balearic Islands, Castile-Leon, the Basque Country, the Pyrenees, southern and western France, and parts of the Maghreb in North Africa, Great Britain, and Ireland. Haplogroup I-M26 appears to be the only subclade of Haplogroup I found among the Basques, but appears to be found at somewhat higher frequencies among the general populations of Castile-Leon in Spain and Béarn in France than among the population of ethnic Basques[citation needed]. The M26 mutation is found in native males inhabiting every geographic region where megaliths may be found, including such far-flung and culturally disconnected regions as the Canary Islands, the Balearic Isles, Corsica, Ireland, and Sweden

Lineages that were Pre-Neolithic should have leaked a little more broadly down into Iberia and the Mediterranean than L21 did.

The more I think about it, the more this shows R-L11 subclades must not have been Pre-Neolithic, and was only a late incursion.  The whole distribution of L21, U152, U106, etc. is fairly segregated and contiguous... not patchy like some pieces of hg I.

P312 is somewhat the exception, but we should not view P312 as just P312. It is really L21, U152, Z196 and unknown other lineages, all that appear to be Bronze Age TMRCAs.

Z196 is the most far flung (and patchy) of the known subclades of P312 so it is the exceptional part of P312. Geographically, one could make the case that Z196 was older but it can't be older than the interclade MRCA for P312 and U106. Z196 does stretch down through out the Iberian Peninsula.   umm...  can anyone say Celtiberian?  or Urnfield maybe ?



Certainly not Urnfield as NE Iberia (especially Catalonia) was the only area of Urnfield penetration. P312 (and with it Z196) is too common throughout all of Iberia to link it to Urnfield.

As for Celt-Iberian, that label seems entirely too young considering the probable total age of P312.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 14, 2012, 09:32:09 AM
... Lineages that were Pre-Neolithic should have leaked a little more broadly down into Iberia and the Mediterranean than L21 did.

The more I think about it, the more this shows R-L11 subclades must not have been Pre-Neolithic, and was only a late incursion.  The whole distribution of L21, U152, U106, etc. is fairly segregated and contiguous... not patchy like some pieces of hg I.

P312 is somewhat the exception, but we should not view P312 as just P312. It is really L21, U152, Z196 and unknown other lineages, all that appear to be Bronze Age TMRCAs.

Z196 is the most far flung (and patchy) of the known subclades of P312 so it is the exceptional part of P312. Geographically, one could make the case that Z196 was older but it can't be older than the interclade MRCA for P312 and U106. Z196 does stretch down through out the Iberian Peninsula.   umm...  can anyone say Celtiberian?  or Urnfield maybe ?
Certainly not Urnfield as NE Iberia (especially Catalonia) was the only area of Urnfield penetration. P312 (and with it Z196) is too common throughout all of Iberia to link it to Urnfield.

As for Celt-Iberian, that label seems entirely too young considering the probable total age of P312.

I agree that P312 does not show a denser pattern* in NE Iberia, but we know that  large portion of Z196, SRY2627, is heaviest in NE Iberia so that Z196 is still a possibility. Still, I agree that Urnfield is not the greatest of matches for P312 and is just another consideration?

As far as the Celtiberians, do we know the direction of their spread through Iberia? If they are just descendants of an pre-Celtic or proto-Celtic speaking Bell Beakers they might still be part of the scenario of if there spread was relatively wide. What is the timing and spread of the Celts that fought with the Iberians and then integrated?  

What about Ligurians? Did they reach into Spain?

* The caveat here is we do not really have a good picture for R-M269 diversity within the Iberian Peninsula. Higher frequency does not necessarily indicate an origin. Does this paper show diversity by region? Diversity among the L21 and M153 does NOT look high among the Basques.



Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: razyn on March 14, 2012, 09:35:57 AM
P312 is somewhat the exception, but we should not view P312 as just P312. It is really L21, U152, Z196 and unknown other lineages, all that appear to be Bronze Age TMRCAs.

Z196 is the most far flung (and patchy) of the known subclades of P312 so it is the exceptional part of P312. Geographically, one could make the case that Z196 was older but it can't be older than the interclade MRCA for P312 and U106. Z196 does stretch down through out the Iberian Peninsula.   umm...  can anyone say Celtiberian?  or Urnfield maybe ?

Bell Beakers?  Stelae People?  We can say a lot of things, although some that have already been said are getting increasingly untenable.  And that's a good thing.  Anyway, watch Batch 454; testing for Z-SNPs under Z196 has at last begun.  There will be something for you to to compare with SRY2627 and that crowd (the L176.2 side of the family).  One hopes, we may find the SNP for the N/S cluster -- that stretches from Russia to Portugal, and is not young.  Anyway, your short list of usefully comparable variances should get a little longer in the near future.  Of course we'll then have the problem of amassing enough guys with any particular terminal SNP who have tested to 67 markers... and so it goes.

In any case we'll be able to focus in a lot more tightly than a regional survey of R-M269, useful as that may be in concept.  The academics will still have something to aspire to.  I wonder whether the people who will match up the YDNA, artifacts, linguistics and other evidence are even in grad school yet.  It's kind of fun trying to guess what their papers will say... one of these days.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: Richard Rocca on March 14, 2012, 09:56:19 AM
... Lineages that were Pre-Neolithic should have leaked a little more broadly down into Iberia and the Mediterranean than L21 did.

The more I think about it, the more this shows R-L11 subclades must not have been Pre-Neolithic, and was only a late incursion.  The whole distribution of L21, U152, U106, etc. is fairly segregated and contiguous... not patchy like some pieces of hg I.

P312 is somewhat the exception, but we should not view P312 as just P312. It is really L21, U152, Z196 and unknown other lineages, all that appear to be Bronze Age TMRCAs.

Z196 is the most far flung (and patchy) of the known subclades of P312 so it is the exceptional part of P312. Geographically, one could make the case that Z196 was older but it can't be older than the interclade MRCA for P312 and U106. Z196 does stretch down through out the Iberian Peninsula.   umm...  can anyone say Celtiberian?  or Urnfield maybe ?
Certainly not Urnfield as NE Iberia (especially Catalonia) was the only area of Urnfield penetration. P312 (and with it Z196) is too common throughout all of Iberia to link it to Urnfield.

As for Celt-Iberian, that label seems entirely too young considering the probable total age of P312.

I agree that P312 does not show a denser pattern* in NE Iberia, but we know that  large portion of Z196, SRY2627, is heaviest in NE Iberia so that Z196 is still a possibility. Still, I agree that Urnfield is not the greatest of matches for P312 and is just another consideration?

As far as the Celtiberians, do we know the direction of their spread through Iberia? If they are just descendants of an pre-Celtic or proto-Celtic speaking Bell Beakers they might still be part of the scenario of if there spread was relatively wide. What is the timing and spread of the Celts that fought with the Iberians and then integrated?  

What about Ligurians? Did they reach into Spain?

* The caveat here is we do not really have a good picture for R-M269 diversity within the Iberian Peninsula. Higher frequency does not necessarily indicate an origin. Does this paper show diversity by region? Diversity among the L21 and M153 does NOT look high among the Basques.



Yes, according to ancient writers the Ligurians stretched out from modern day Liguria, Italy to the eastern shores of Spain.

Interestingly for U152, frequency is very low (2.6%) on both sides of the Pyrenes and is consistent with the U152 FTDNA project. L2+ (incl. L20) samples seem to be much more frequent than U152* which of course could include some Z36 and Z56 samples. This is consistent with the Catalan region in our project which seems to be the only area of Spain with L2 or L20.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: MHammers on March 14, 2012, 03:47:09 PM
I-M26 has an elevated frequency for the Basques and seems to be more unique to the Basques than the other y-hg's.  Ken Nordtvedt's site has hg I-M26 listed age as 6000 ybp with a map showing its' movment from SE Europe to Iberia(and Sardinia) and finally to Britain.  Perhaps, the proto-Basques were among the megalith builders. 

Wikipedia has a page for pre-IE languages which show a similiar trail to Nordtvedt's I-M26.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Indo-European_languages


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: rms2 on March 14, 2012, 08:06:38 PM
I suspect the Basques and perhaps the Gascons were originally I-M26 but have become mostly R1b1a2 over time via admixture. Something similar happened with the Ossetians, who now resemble their Caucasian neighbors in being mostly G2 of some kind.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: IALEM on March 15, 2012, 04:12:42 AM
I suspect the Basques and perhaps the Gascons were originally I-M26 but have become mostly R1b1a2 over time via admixture. Something similar happened with the Ossetians, who now resemble their Caucasian neighbors in being mostly G2 of some kind.
In the table the proportion of I-M26 in North Aragon is superior to any of the Basque or Gascon regions except for Zuberoa, I don´t think the data point to an original I-M26 population. Besides, it is supposed some of the particularities of Basque population is related to isolation, id est, low admixture.
IMO Basque population is a branch of ancient Aquitanians that arrived to modern Spanish Basque country in the 5th century AD, taking advantage of the fall of the Roman Empire. They pushed the Romanoceltic population south of the Basque Mountains and then lived in a relative isolation from neighbours because of their disctintive pastoralist society (which selected the very high Lactase Persistence) and particular language (No longer spoken by the Gascon population).
The important presence of L-21 shows Basques are more closely related to Gascons than to Iberians, and it is another element addding to the late Basque arrival theory.
The "Original" Haplogroup of Basque population is probably older than Basque language, and its ethnogenesis.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: rms2 on March 15, 2012, 07:43:38 PM
I think the admixture was almost totally male vectored and may have come sufficiently long ago that the isolation of the Basques occurred after the infusion of R1b and lactase persistence.

I follow your theory, which is reasonable and worth considering.

Where did the ancient Aquitanians come from before Aquitaine?


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: IALEM on March 16, 2012, 04:21:27 AM


Where did the ancient Aquitanians come from before Aquitaine?
If they are not descendant of the Paleolithic population, then the alternative would be Bell Beakers. The Neolithic transition is very late in the area except for some isolated sites and there is little change in the archaeological record, it is the Bell Beaker period which shows imporatnt transformations in the archaeological record.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: MHammers on March 16, 2012, 01:24:08 PM


Where did the ancient Aquitanians come from before Aquitaine?
If they are not descendant of the Paleolithic population, then the alternative would be Bell Beakers. The Neolithic transition is very late in the area except for some isolated sites and there is little change in the archaeological record, it is the Bell Beaker period which shows imporatnt transformations in the archaeological record.

Wikipedia mentions the Artenacian culture in copper age Charentes.  I'm trying to find some papers on this.  My guess is that the proto-Basques were initially a late neolithic/copper age maritime arrival who assimiliated other people by marriage into their colonies.  I don't see anything in their DNA, autosomal or lineage to suggest a pre-neolithic signature.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 16, 2012, 07:12:22 PM
One thing to bear in mind is Gallia Aquitania was a mix of Celtic and proto-Basque peoples rather than a solid block.  I believe Acquitania had 20 Aquitanian and 14 Celtic tribes.  Its also suspected that the Spanish Basque country at least partly was occupied by Celtic tribes.  So, the situation is complex.  I would suspect L21 is more related to the Celtic element in Aquitania.  In fact high L21 is very strongly linked with the last bastions of Celtic speaking/areas where the post-Roman influx was lesser.  

The wiki page is useful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallia_Aquitania


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: IALEM on March 17, 2012, 04:08:49 AM


Where did the ancient Aquitanians come from before Aquitaine?
If they are not descendant of the Paleolithic population, then the alternative would be Bell Beakers. The Neolithic transition is very late in the area except for some isolated sites and there is little change in the archaeological record, it is the Bell Beaker period which shows imporatnt transformations in the archaeological record.

Wikipedia mentions the Artenacian culture in copper age Charentes.  I'm trying to find some papers on this.  My guess is that the proto-Basques were initially a late neolithic/copper age maritime arrival who assimiliated other people by marriage into their colonies.  I don't see anything in their DNA, autosomal or lineage to suggest a pre-neolithic signature.
Why a maritime arrival?


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: IALEM on March 17, 2012, 04:12:35 AM
One thing to bear in mind is Gallia Aquitania was a mix of Celtic and proto-Basque peoples rather than a solid block.  I believe Acquitania had 20 Aquitanian and 14 Celtic tribes.  Its also suspected that the Spanish Basque country at least partly was occupied by Celtic tribes.  So, the situation is complex.  I would suspect L21 is more related to the Celtic element in Aquitania.  In fact high L21 is very strongly linked with the last bastions of Celtic speaking/areas where the post-Roman influx was lesser.  

The wiki page is useful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallia_Aquitania
But that was because Gallia Aquitania was an administrative Roman province that extended beyond the Garonne, the historical limit of Aquitani, to the Loire, so including such characteristic Celtic tribes as the Arverni.
As for the Celtic in the Spanish Basque Country, that is true, and I think they were pushed back by the Basques when they arrived around 5th century AD. But I don´t see those Celtic related to L21, because there were other Celtic populations in the adjacent regions of Spain and they are very low in L21.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: MHammers on March 17, 2012, 10:38:03 AM

Wikipedia mentions the Artenacian culture in copper age Charentes.  I'm trying to find some papers on this.  My guess is that the proto-Basques were initially a late neolithic/copper age maritime arrival who assimiliated other people by marriage into their colonies.  I don't see anything in their DNA, autosomal or lineage to suggest a pre-neolithic signature.
Why a maritime arrival?

Just speculation, but here is my reasoning: 
1- Distinct presence of I-M26 in Sardinia and Basques with a proposed origin in SE Europe by Nordtvedt in 4000 BC.  By this time, some form of proto-IE was being spoken in SE Europe after the collapse of the old farming cultures there.  I think it is unlikely a non-IE language would go overland without its people being absorbed by IE speakers. 
2- Numerous dolmens and other megalithic structures in the Basque region.  Megaliths are found mostly near a coast, Stonehenge an exception.
3- Almost all ancient non-IE languages are found in Mediterranean Europe.  Some may have pre-neolithic origins.  I suspect many were brought by the Impressed ware and Megalithic peoples.
4- Fingernail impressed ceramics were used by the Artenacians or proto-Aquitani around 2400 BC.  This style did have parallels in Funnelbeaker and Corded-ware, but also among the people around Monte Covolo, north Italy which suggests a possible mediterranean route.
5 - I think the best support is the autosomal DNA, where Dienekes has found a strong connection between the Basques and Sardinians.  The Basques are less close to their immediate neighbors, the French and Spanish.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: rms2 on March 18, 2012, 06:15:12 AM
. . .
5 - I think the best support is the autosomal DNA, where Dienekes has found a strong connection between the Basques and Sardinians.  The Basques are less close to their immediate neighbors, the French and Spanish.

That is another reason to suspect that the Basques were not originally R1b in their y-dna but were mostly I-M26.

A comparatively few generations of drift in a small, isolated community can alter the y-dna landscape considerably.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: IALEM on March 18, 2012, 05:42:45 PM


5 - I think the best support is the autosomal DNA, where Dienekes has found a strong connection between the Basques and Sardinians.  The Basques are less close to their immediate neighbors, the French and Spanish.
That is interesting, do you have  a link?


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: MHammers on March 18, 2012, 10:00:37 PM
5 - I think the best support is the autosomal DNA, where Dienekes has found a strong connection between the Basques and Sardinians.  The Basques are less close to their immediate neighbors, the French and Spanish.
That is interesting, do you have  a link?

Here is mainly what I'm referring to, although I should've been more clear.  I'm not saying today's Basque and Sardinians are one and the same.  What they do have in common is a shared ancient mediterranean, autosomal component that distinguishes them from other neighboring populations.  It's not a 1 to 1 match, nor would I expect it to be.  Basques do have some northern european admixture whereas the Sardinians do not, but we also know Basques carry alot of R1b to explain that.  I think the common mediterranean component coupled with I-M26 also found in the Sardinians is the key.  See the K12b spreadsheet.  If Basques were ice age survivors, they would have a much stronger northern european component that they would share with people who went north out of the refugiums, imo.

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/01/k12b-and-k7b-calculators.html



Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: IALEM on March 19, 2012, 08:13:31 AM
But watching tha spreadsheet you find that Spanish as a whole are a much better match, as it should be in autosomal, with a high "Atlantic Mediterranean" component and a sizeable "Northern European" component, and I-M26 in Spain as a whole is very low, so I don´t think the common mediterranean component coupled with I-M26.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: JeanL on March 19, 2012, 11:31:35 AM
Basques do have some northern european admixture whereas the Sardinians do not, but we also know Basques carry alot of R1b to explain that.  I think the common mediterranean component coupled with I-M26 also found in the Sardinians is the key.  See the K12b spreadsheet.  If Basques were ice age survivors, they would have a much stronger northern european component that they would share with people who went north out of the refugiums, imo.

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/01/k12b-and-k7b-calculators.html

Meh!! I wouldn't put too much weight on that hypothesis; the fact is that we are likely dealing with the limitations of ADMIXTURE and people like Dienekes looking way too much into it. The Northern European component is modal in Baltic populations, in fact the Orcadians from HGDP exhibit it at 45.6%, whereas Russians from HGDP exhibit this component at 65.4%, and Lithuanians even higher. 


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: MHammers on March 19, 2012, 05:27:12 PM
My interpretation is a little different.

They are only different in their order with the NE Euro and West Asian components.  Either way this suggests gene flow from the east, probably from different directions in the neolithic (Cardium vs. LBK derived cultures?).  I don't see this as a major difference, proto-Basques may have taken more of an overland route and picked up some I-M26 in SE Europe in the process.  This would explain part of the NE Euro component in Basques.  Proto-Sardinians were more west Asian and therefore mediterranean.  Yes, there is likely some continuity from the native mesolithic.  I just doubt it is detectable.  On a side note, two samples of I-P37.2 the parent of M26 were found in the Treilles aDNA of neolithic France.

At the next level, both populations are at the same spot which suggests a fusion of sorts perhaps when the west mediterranean neolithic is established and into the megalithic/copper ages.  This is where a common substrate is developed for both, imo.  At the nearest level, both are closest to NW Europeans, which is not surprising due to the large amount of R1b and other northern types introduced into the Basque populations post neolithic and up to the Roman period.  Sardinia, as opposed to Basques, was in contact with Greek and Phoenician colonies which would also reinforce the closeness with West Asia.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: JeanL on March 19, 2012, 06:46:19 PM
The divergence time of the Proto-Basque component and Proto-West Asian component is earlier than the Neolithic, their fst=0.038, and using the French Basques as representatives of the Proto-Basque component,  and the Adygei as the representatives of the Proto-West Asian components.

Using the following formula which calculates time of divergence in generations based on the fst and effective population size (Ne), and assuming random drift:

Henn et al(2011) Formula (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gN5UHLHp_DY/TyhxiDLJXkI/AAAAAAAAAtg/Q19X9fvAO-c/s1600/journal.pgen.1002397.e002.png)

The Ne for the French Basques(6137) and Adygei(6699) can be found in the supplementary tables of Li et al(2009).

Li et al(2009) (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/319/5866/1100/suppl/DC1)

Using a generation time of 25, we find that the time of divergence between the Proto-Basque component and the Proto West Asian component is equal to:

T=25*log(1-0.038)/log(1-1/(Ne_basques+Ne_adygei))=12431 ybp or 497 generations.

This is a time of divergence that is clearly before the Neolithic.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: MHammers on March 20, 2012, 05:35:49 PM
Thanks, I hadn't see that study.  

What do you think is driving that very high divergence time in terms of haplogroups?  I know there's not always a strong correlation between them and autosomal dna, but Basques have relatively similiar haplogroups and frequencies as other western Europeans.  The mtdna subclades H1 and H3 seem higher in Basques than other.  Are these considered older than the other forms of H in western Europe?


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: JeanL on March 20, 2012, 07:49:21 PM
I don't know Haplogroups, and more specifically y-DNA haplogroups are extremely susceptible to drift. I don't think Basques are the only ones who retained a lot of Pre-Neolithic genes, this is something shared by other Western Europeans. Also remember ADMIXTURE is a computer program which would basically try to fit x given number of populations in k numbers of parental components. So what makes any sort of component real or not is very subjective, and Dienekes is known to build huge thesis on single experiments without taking into account the limitations of the software.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: IALEM on March 29, 2012, 03:41:42 AM
After the reading the whole article,I noticed  this paragraph

When other Iberian and French samples are compared to our present sample set (Figures 2b and 3b),Basque samples cluster with other surrounding non-Basque speaking populations,which suggests a genetic distinctiveness, not exclusive to Basque speakers, of the populations inhabiting this geographical area. Moreover the geographically distant population from the French Bretagne (BRI), which shows no North African haplogroups and very little Neolithic influences, falls within our Basque populations for the Y-chromosome data, whereas geographically closer French populations do not.
Bretons speak a Celtic language with roots in the British Isles and that has no relation with Basque. This suggests that other geographically and ethnically separated Western European populations might exhibit the genetic composition similar to the Basques and some surrounding populations but that this peculiarity is not linked to the fact of having a Basque culture.


The authors suggest that what  both populations have in common is a marginal geographic position that meant they received little post paleolithic admixture


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 29, 2012, 12:41:07 PM
I don't know Haplogroups, and more specifically y-DNA haplogroups are extremely susceptible to drift. I don't think Basques are the only ones who retained a lot of Pre-Neolithic genes, this is something shared by other Western Europeans. Also remember ADMIXTURE is a computer program which would basically try to fit x given number of populations in k numbers of parental components. So what makes any sort of component real or not is very subjective, and Dienekes is known to build huge thesis on single experiments without taking into account the limitations of the software.
I am very skeptical of explaining away low diversity by "drift", at least Y DNA wise. Genetically we can't see what's on the other side (the earlier/older side) of a bottleneck that points to a recent founder.  All we know is the Basques have recent founders among their R1b subclade populations. I can't see how we can know that is random drift versus a late arrival.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: Richard Rocca on March 29, 2012, 02:13:55 PM
I don't know Haplogroups, and more specifically y-DNA haplogroups are extremely susceptible to drift. I don't think Basques are the only ones who retained a lot of Pre-Neolithic genes, this is something shared by other Western Europeans. Also remember ADMIXTURE is a computer program which would basically try to fit x given number of populations in k numbers of parental components. So what makes any sort of component real or not is very subjective, and Dienekes is known to build huge thesis on single experiments without taking into account the limitations of the software.
I am very skeptical of explaining away low diversity by "drift", at least Y DNA wise. Genetically we can't see what's on the other side (the earlier/older side) of a bottleneck that points to a recent founder.  All we know is the Basques have recent founders among their R1b subclade populations. I can't see how we can know that is random drift versus a late arrival.

I absolutely agree. If you look at M153 (aka "The Basque Marker") it is obvious that it is very young based on its low diversity and the fact that it is now a whopping 10 subclades below P312. The fact that so many non-Basques are also part of the same NS cluster but several subclades up from M153 points to migrants from non-Basque areas entering northern-central Iberia at a later date.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: razyn on March 29, 2012, 03:03:10 PM
The fact that so many non-Basques are also part of the same NS cluster but several subclades up from M153 points to migrants from non-Basque areas entering northern-central Iberia at a later date.

But, just male "migrants," right?  I'm still thinking many of these R1b (and maybe Z196, Z209, Z220) migrants to the Basque country were guys w/o their wives, livestock, etc., who perhaps didn't change the local culture too much, but changed its Y-DNA balance significantly.  It's just a scenario to play around with, and Didier suggested it before I did.  Other scenarios that have been around much longer (pertaining to Bell Beakers, Iberian refugia, Basque or Italo-Celtic linguistics, and other matters) don't seem to mesh very well with the DNA patterns being revealed by the more recent testing.

Once this phylogenetic situation on the ground becomes better known, it will probably get resolved by expensive academic studies, of more carefully screened populations.  There are things we can figure out $29 at a time, and things we can't.  Anyway, I'm very pleased to see M153 beginning its march down the P312 tree to its correct position.  And I'm somewhat eager to see what looks contemporaneous with SRY2627, once we have some clear nodes down this other side of Z196.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: IALEM on March 30, 2012, 02:35:17 AM
But, just male "migrants," right?  I'm still thinking many of these R1b (and maybe Z196, Z209, Z220) migrants to the Basque country were guys w/o their wives, livestock, etc., who perhaps didn't change the local culture too much, but changed its Y-DNA balance significantly.  It's just a scenario to play around with, and Didier suggested it before I did. 
That scenario just don´t fit with historical experience, the other way around, changing culture without affecting Y-DNA balance is what have happened, but with an attested change in Y-DNA balance, like the one that happened in South America, a cultuiral change is unavoidable


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: Richard Rocca on March 30, 2012, 07:28:28 AM
But, just male "migrants," right?  I'm still thinking many of these R1b (and maybe Z196, Z209, Z220) migrants to the Basque country were guys w/o their wives, livestock, etc., who perhaps didn't change the local culture too much, but changed its Y-DNA balance significantly.  It's just a scenario to play around with, and Didier suggested it before I did. 
That scenario just don´t fit with historical experience, the other way around, changing culture without affecting Y-DNA balance is what have happened, but with an attested change in Y-DNA balance, like the one that happened in South America, a cultuiral change is unavoidable

If that's true, then how do you account for Basque Y-DNA being almost identical to most of Western Europe at the P312+ level?


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: OConnor on March 30, 2012, 07:45:13 AM
The re-population of Spain from Christian kingdoms after the Moors were forced out of Spain may have brought females also.

Is it possible a lot of the L21 entered Spain around these times?

711: The Muslim conquest of Iberia begins.
 718: Moorish Islamic rule is at its widest extent, covering almost all of the Iberian Peninsula, the Pyrenees, and part of today's southern France.
 722:Battle of Covadonga in the north-west of Iberia. The Christian Reconquista begins.
 739: Moorish garrison driven out of Galicia by Asturian-Galician forces.
 800: The Franks complete the reconquest of all of today's southern French territory and the Pyrenees and establish the Spanish March.
 801: The Franks reconquer Barcelona.
 914: Completion of the reconquest of the north-west. Muslims briefly retake Barcelona.
 1085: Toledo reconquered by Castilian forces.
 1147: Siege of Lisbon. Forces from the Second Crusade and the Reconquista expel the Moorish forces from the city.
 1236: Half of Iberia has been reconquered by the Christians. Cadiz seized by Castilian forces attacking from the sea.
 1249: King Afonso III of Portugal takes Faro (in the Algarve), ending the Portuguese part of the Reconquista in 1250.[3] The Emirate of Granada remains the only Muslim state in Iberia.
 1300s and 1400s: Marinid Muslims seize control of some towns on the southern coast but are soon driven out.
 1492: Treaty of Granada completes the Reconquista.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: rms2 on March 30, 2012, 06:18:52 PM
But, just male "migrants," right?  I'm still thinking many of these R1b (and maybe Z196, Z209, Z220) migrants to the Basque country were guys w/o their wives, livestock, etc., who perhaps didn't change the local culture too much, but changed its Y-DNA balance significantly.  It's just a scenario to play around with, and Didier suggested it before I did. 
That scenario just don´t fit with historical experience, the other way around, changing culture without affecting Y-DNA balance is what have happened, but with an attested change in Y-DNA balance, like the one that happened in South America, a cultuiral change is unavoidable

If that's true, then how do you account for Basque Y-DNA being almost identical to most of Western Europe at the P312+ level?

You also have the example of the Ossetians, who speak an Indo-Iranian language, claim descent from the Alans and Sarmatians and yet resemble their non-IE-speaking Caucasian neighbors in being mostly G2a. It's pretty obvious the Ossetians made a y-dna switch at some point without altering their basic language and culture.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: IALEM on March 31, 2012, 03:24:55 AM
But, just male "migrants," right?  I'm still thinking many of these R1b (and maybe Z196, Z209, Z220) migrants to the Basque country were guys w/o their wives, livestock, etc., who perhaps didn't change the local culture too much, but changed its Y-DNA balance significantly.  It's just a scenario to play around with, and Didier suggested it before I did. 
That scenario just don´t fit with historical experience, the other way around, changing culture without affecting Y-DNA balance is what have happened, but with an attested change in Y-DNA balance, like the one that happened in South America, a cultuiral change is unavoidable

If that's true, then how do you account for Basque Y-DNA being almost identical to most of Western Europe at the P312+ level?
Because they are  the same population genetically, IndoEuropean language didn´t change the genetic composition, it was simply a cultural trait learnt by the population. The equation culture=race is simply wrong historically.
Besides, as you know, it is not only Basques who have a high R1b composition and spoke non IE language, the whole of the Iberian coast and Aquitania were in the same position before the Roman conquest, and the adoption of Latin (IE) language didn´t change that genmetic composition.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: IALEM on March 31, 2012, 03:27:33 AM
But, just male "migrants," right?  I'm still thinking many of these R1b (and maybe Z196, Z209, Z220) migrants to the Basque country were guys w/o their wives, livestock, etc., who perhaps didn't change the local culture too much, but changed its Y-DNA balance significantly.  It's just a scenario to play around with, and Didier suggested it before I did. 
That scenario just don´t fit with historical experience, the other way around, changing culture without affecting Y-DNA balance is what have happened, but with an attested change in Y-DNA balance, like the one that happened in South America, a cultuiral change is unavoidable

If that's true, then how do you account for Basque Y-DNA being almost identical to most of Western Europe at the P312+ level?

You also have the example of the Ossetians, who speak an Indo-Iranian language, claim descent from the Alans and Sarmatians and yet resemble their non-IE-speaking Caucasian neighbors in being mostly G2a. It's pretty obvious the Ossetians made a y-dna switch at some point without altering their basic language and culture.
No Rich, it is the other way around. Ossetians were Caucasians who adopted an IE language through elite dominant Sarmatians. It is way more simple to think of changing languages than whole populations.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: rms2 on March 31, 2012, 03:42:59 PM
But, just male "migrants," right?  I'm still thinking many of these R1b (and maybe Z196, Z209, Z220) migrants to the Basque country were guys w/o their wives, livestock, etc., who perhaps didn't change the local culture too much, but changed its Y-DNA balance significantly.  It's just a scenario to play around with, and Didier suggested it before I did. 
That scenario just don´t fit with historical experience, the other way around, changing culture without affecting Y-DNA balance is what have happened, but with an attested change in Y-DNA balance, like the one that happened in South America, a cultuiral change is unavoidable

If that's true, then how do you account for Basque Y-DNA being almost identical to most of Western Europe at the P312+ level?

You also have the example of the Ossetians, who speak an Indo-Iranian language, claim descent from the Alans and Sarmatians and yet resemble their non-IE-speaking Caucasian neighbors in being mostly G2a. It's pretty obvious the Ossetians made a y-dna switch at some point without altering their basic language and culture.
No Rich, it is the other way around. Ossetians were Caucasians who adopted an IE language through elite dominant Sarmatians. It is way more simple to think of changing languages than whole populations.

Just the Ossetians were dominated by Sarmatians and none of their neighbors?

Perhaps the Basques were originally local Celts who likewise experienced "elite dominance"?

I disagree about changing y-dna over time. It might not occur over night, but it isn't too hard to see how it could happen, given enough time and drift.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: IALEM on April 01, 2012, 06:51:41 AM
But, just male "migrants," right?  I'm still thinking many of these R1b (and maybe Z196, Z209, Z220) migrants to the Basque country were guys w/o their wives, livestock, etc., who perhaps didn't change the local culture too much, but changed its Y-DNA balance significantly.  It's just a scenario to play around with, and Didier suggested it before I did. 
That scenario just don´t fit with historical experience, the other way around, changing culture without affecting Y-DNA balance is what have happened, but with an attested change in Y-DNA balance, like the one that happened in South America, a cultuiral change is unavoidable

If that's true, then how do you account for Basque Y-DNA being almost identical to most of Western Europe at the P312+ level?

You also have the example of the Ossetians, who speak an Indo-Iranian language, claim descent from the Alans and Sarmatians and yet resemble their non-IE-speaking Caucasian neighbors in being mostly G2a. It's pretty obvious the Ossetians made a y-dna switch at some point without altering their basic language and culture.
No Rich, it is the other way around. Ossetians were Caucasians who adopted an IE language through elite dominant Sarmatians. It is way more simple to think of changing languages than whole populations.

Just the Ossetians were dominated by Sarmatians and none of their neighbors?

Perhaps the Basques were originally local Celts who likewise experienced "elite dominance"?

I disagree about changing y-dna over time. It might not occur over night, but it isn't too hard to see how it could happen, given enough time and drift.
The Hungarians changed their language and none of their neighbours.
 The Basque are basically composed of just 2 haplogroups, I and R1b, while their neighbours show a much more complex mix, how do you explain that? It is more simple to think they are a relatively isolated population that received little admixture over time


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 01, 2012, 07:18:54 AM
The Hungarians changed their language and none of their neighbours.
 The Basque are basically composed of just 2 haplogroups, I and R1b, while their neighbours show a much more complex mix, how do you explain that? It is more simple to think they are a relatively isolated population that received little admixture over time

So you think the probability is greater that all R1b people in Western Europe spoke a Basque-like language and switched over time to speak IE?


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: rms2 on April 01, 2012, 09:22:48 AM
The Hungarians changed their language and none of their neighbours.
 The Basque are basically composed of just 2 haplogroups, I and R1b, while their neighbours show a much more complex mix, how do you explain that? It is more simple to think they are a relatively isolated population that received little admixture over time

So you think the probability is greater that all R1b people in Western Europe spoke a Basque-like language and switched over time to speak IE?


That is something I have brought up time and again.

Which is easier? For a very large group spread over a very large geographic area to change its language, or for a small population in a relatively small area to experience genetic drift and over time alter the relative frequencies of its y haplogroups?


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 01, 2012, 01:24:19 PM
The Hungarians changed their language and none of their neighbours.
 The Basque are basically composed of just 2 haplogroups, I and R1b, while their neighbours show a much more complex mix, how do you explain that? It is more simple to think they are a relatively isolated population that received little admixture over time

So you think the probability is greater that all R1b people in Western Europe spoke a Basque-like language and switched over time to speak IE?


That is something I have brought up time and again.

Which is easier? For a very large group spread over a very large geographic area to change its language, or for a small population in a relatively small area to experience genetic drift and over time alter the relative frequencies of its y haplogroups?

And that's exactly where I was going to go with it. I'm a big believer in Occam's razor, and the latter is the more unlikely of the two scenarios by a long shot. To me, the Basque question is the "red herring" in R1b discussions.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: IALEM on April 01, 2012, 03:26:47 PM
The Hungarians changed their language and none of their neighbours.
 The Basque are basically composed of just 2 haplogroups, I and R1b, while their neighbours show a much more complex mix, how do you explain that? It is more simple to think they are a relatively isolated population that received little admixture over time

So you think the probability is greater that all R1b people in Western Europe spoke a Basque-like language and switched over time to speak IE?


That is something I have brought up time and again.

Which is easier? For a very large group spread over a very large geographic area to change its language, or for a small population in a relatively small area to experience genetic drift and over time alter the relative frequencies of its y haplogroups?
I find it easier fro language to spread without substantial Y-DNA change that for a change ion Y-DNA without language change.
And remember, you seem to forget that before the Roman conquest the area of non Indoeuropean language was much larger, including Aquitania and the mediterranean coast of Iberia. Curiously that area has a larger percentage of R1b than the Celtic Western Iberia.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 01, 2012, 04:32:33 PM
The Hungarians changed their language and none of their neighbours.
 The Basque are basically composed of just 2 haplogroups, I and R1b, while their neighbours show a much more complex mix, how do you explain that? It is more simple to think they are a relatively isolated population that received little admixture over time

So you think the probability is greater that all R1b people in Western Europe spoke a Basque-like language and switched over time to speak IE?


That is something I have brought up time and again.

Which is easier? For a very large group spread over a very large geographic area to change its language, or for a small population in a relatively small area to experience genetic drift and over time alter the relative frequencies of its y haplogroups?
I find it easier fro language to spread without substantial Y-DNA change that for a change ion Y-DNA without language change.
And remember, you seem to forget that before the Roman conquest the area of non Indoeuropean language was much larger, including Aquitania and the mediterranean coast of Iberia. Curiously that area has a larger percentage of R1b than the Celtic Western Iberia.

So then you think that the first L11, U106, P312, L21, U152 and now DF27 all spoke a Basque-like language? It is possible they all appeared within a few centuries of each other.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: IALEM on April 02, 2012, 03:45:40 AM
The Hungarians changed their language and none of their neighbours.
 The Basque are basically composed of just 2 haplogroups, I and R1b, while their neighbours show a much more complex mix, how do you explain that? It is more simple to think they are a relatively isolated population that received little admixture over time

So you think the probability is greater that all R1b people in Western Europe spoke a Basque-like language and switched over time to speak IE?


That is something I have brought up time and again.

Which is easier? For a very large group spread over a very large geographic area to change its language, or for a small population in a relatively small area to experience genetic drift and over time alter the relative frequencies of its y haplogroups?
I find it easier fro language to spread without substantial Y-DNA change that for a change ion Y-DNA without language change.
And remember, you seem to forget that before the Roman conquest the area of non Indoeuropean language was much larger, including Aquitania and the mediterranean coast of Iberia. Curiously that area has a larger percentage of R1b than the Celtic Western Iberia.

So then you think that the first L11, U106, P312, L21, U152 and now DF27 all spoke a Basque-like language? It is possible they all appeared within a few centuries of each other.
I think they spoke a pre Indoeuropean language at some time, that could or could not be related to the group of languages in which were Aquitanian and Iberian and of which Basque is the last remnant. I think that IE reached Western Europe from Eastern Europe but it was a cultural trait expanded through Elite dominance and cultural assimilation.
We will never know for sure since non written languages don´t leave behind archaeological remains. If R1b is found to be post-neolithic I will reconsider my position though, as there will be a clear sign of a massive replacement of populatioin. Still, even if that is the case, there is still the problem with Iberians and Aquitanians, do you think they were flooded with R1b IE speaking populations but still kept their non IE languages? And what about the Celts of Weswtern Iberia? they  were the carriers of an IE language but those regions had a lower percentage of R1b in  present day.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: rms2 on April 02, 2012, 07:39:49 AM
Those are all good points, but I just cannot buy the "elite dominance" part, not over so wide an area, with such thorough-going success, and conducted by such a relatively primitive people.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 02, 2012, 10:22:48 AM
I think they spoke a pre Indoeuropean language at some time, that could or could not be related to the group of languages in which were Aquitanian and Iberian and of which Basque is the last remnant. I think that IE reached Western Europe from Eastern Europe but it was a cultural trait expanded through Elite dominance and cultural assimilation.
We will never know for sure since non written languages don´t leave behind archaeological remains. If R1b is found to be post-neolithic I will reconsider my position though, as there will be a clear sign of a massive replacement of populatioin. Still, even if that is the case, there is still the problem with Iberians and Aquitanians, do you think they were flooded with R1b IE speaking populations but still kept their non IE languages? And what about the Celts of Weswtern Iberia? they  were the carriers of an IE language but those regions had a lower percentage of R1b in  present day.

We can't look at these things in a vacuum. The top 15 areas of L11+ on the entire planet are all in the British Isles where all pre-Roman languages were IE. The areas of L11 in Ireland blow the doors off of Basque country L11 frequency, reaching more than 90%+ in some areas and over 73% in all areas. Besides, the level of L11 in Aquitanian/Iberian lands is not drastically different than in the NW or western Iberia.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 02, 2012, 06:04:04 PM
Which is easier? For a very large group spread over a very large geographic area to change its language, or for a small population in a relatively small area to experience genetic drift and over time alter the relative frequencies of its y haplogroups?
... Genetic drift is something I find a great deal of fault in, related to the early papers that associated the Basques and the Irish and therefore non-IE and pre-Neolithic. Drift is just a code word for unexplained youthful most recent common ancestors.

An argument based on genetic drift is like saying one group just "got lucky." I do think there is a great deal of randomness to the extinction of paternal lineages, but it doesn't make sense that R1b lineages "got lucky" so much all over Western Europe.  Something else was at work. Either migrations, indigenous plagues, a dominant cultures, or even some basic biological advantage.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: rms2 on April 02, 2012, 06:23:28 PM
Genetic drift can occur where the advantages that caused it are unknown. A recent paper (I can't remember its title or who wrote it), for example, suggested that men in y haplogroup R1b have greater sperm motility than those in y haplogroup I. I hope I am remembering that correctly.

It seems likely that y haplogroup G2a was once widespread throughout western Europe. It is much reduced now. Some kind of switch happened.

I don't think genetic drift can be dismissed as "an argument when you don't have an argument".

Indo-European languages got to western Europe and replaced the languages that were there before them. That happened somehow.

If the Basques were always predominantly R1b, and a language related to theirs was once spoken over a much wider area by other peoples who were predominantly R1b, then it doesn't seem likely that R1b was the y-dna vector for Indo-European in western Europe.

Besides, it seems to me those early papers explained away young haplogroup ages not so much by genetic drift as by the convenient "genetic bottleneck".

Undoubtedly bottlenecks have occurred, but that seems to me the real "argument when you don't have an argument".





Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: JeanL on April 02, 2012, 07:26:13 PM
Besides, it seems to me those early papers explained away young haplogroup ages not so much by genetic drift as by the convenient "genetic bottleneck".

Undoubtedly bottlenecks have occurred, but that seems to me the real "argument when you don't have an argument".

Actually that sounds a lot like what Anatole Klyosov has often done, when challenged about the finding of E-V13 7000 ybp Spain, he claimed that all modern day E-V13 bearers are descendants of a men who lived 2600 ybp, so the haplogroup went through a bottleneck.

This is what he originally claimed:

Quote
However, E-V13 is already out, since it was formed around 2600 ybp (Lutak and Klyosov, Proceedings, 2009, April, pp. 639-669).

i.e. Here is he claiming population bottleneck for E-V13:  http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-11/1321048141 (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-11/1321048141)

Here is he claiming population bottleneck for I1  http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-11/1321228057 (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-11/1321228057)


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: IALEM on April 03, 2012, 04:18:32 AM
I think they spoke a pre Indoeuropean language at some time, that could or could not be related to the group of languages in which were Aquitanian and Iberian and of which Basque is the last remnant. I think that IE reached Western Europe from Eastern Europe but it was a cultural trait expanded through Elite dominance and cultural assimilation.
We will never know for sure since non written languages don´t leave behind archaeological remains. If R1b is found to be post-neolithic I will reconsider my position though, as there will be a clear sign of a massive replacement of populatioin. Still, even if that is the case, there is still the problem with Iberians and Aquitanians, do you think they were flooded with R1b IE speaking populations but still kept their non IE languages? And what about the Celts of Weswtern Iberia? they  were the carriers of an IE language but those regions had a lower percentage of R1b in  present day.

We can't look at these things in a vacuum. The top 15 areas of L11+ on the entire planet are all in the British Isles where all pre-Roman languages were IE. The areas of L11 in Ireland blow the doors off of Basque country L11 frequency, reaching more than 90%+ in some areas and over 73% in all areas. Besides, the level of L11 in Aquitanian/Iberian lands is not drastically different than in the NW or western Iberia.
Let´s see your alternative, if I understand correctly
IE R1b arrive to Western Europe in late Neolithic-Bronze age. They largely replace the previous population all over the place and their language, except for a region extending from the SE coast of Spain to the SW coast of France, where they replace people but not language. And for the following 2k years until Roman expansion things doesn´t change, do I understand this correctly?


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: rms2 on April 03, 2012, 08:19:19 AM
I'm not attempting to answer for Rich Rocca, but it is true that thus far no ancient R1b remains have been found in Europe that predate the Bronze Age. Of course, that could change, since aDNA is pretty sparse right now.

If Basque represents that sole surviving vestige of the language spoken by the predominantly R1b population of most of western Europe, then how and why did the massive switch to Indo-European languages take place, and who was responsible for it?

There is no evidence that I know of for horse-riding, Pontic-Caspian-type "Aryans" (for lack of a better term) in western Europe, and little R1a. So how did it happen?

The question, it seems to me, is which is easier to believe: That a relatively small, somewhat isolated population (the Basques) could, via natural processes, alter the balance of its y haplogroups over time, or that a huge population, spread out over a wide area, in varying ecosystems, occupied by different cultures, once spoke a Basque-like language but all switched over to Indo-European?


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 03, 2012, 10:08:51 AM
I think they spoke a pre Indoeuropean language at some time, that could or could not be related to the group of languages in which were Aquitanian and Iberian and of which Basque is the last remnant. I think that IE reached Western Europe from Eastern Europe but it was a cultural trait expanded through Elite dominance and cultural assimilation.
We will never know for sure since non written languages don´t leave behind archaeological remains. If R1b is found to be post-neolithic I will reconsider my position though, as there will be a clear sign of a massive replacement of populatioin. Still, even if that is the case, there is still the problem with Iberians and Aquitanians, do you think they were flooded with R1b IE speaking populations but still kept their non IE languages? And what about the Celts of Weswtern Iberia? they  were the carriers of an IE language but those regions had a lower percentage of R1b in  present day.

We can't look at these things in a vacuum. The top 15 areas of L11+ on the entire planet are all in the British Isles where all pre-Roman languages were IE. The areas of L11 in Ireland blow the doors off of Basque country L11 frequency, reaching more than 90%+ in some areas and over 73% in all areas. Besides, the level of L11 in Aquitanian/Iberian lands is not drastically different than in the NW or western Iberia.
Let´s see your alternative, if I understand correctly
IE R1b arrive to Western Europe in late Neolithic-Bronze age. They largely replace the previous population all over the place and their language, except for a region extending from the SE coast of Spain to the SW coast of France, where they replace people but not language. And for the following 2k years until Roman expansion things doesn´t change, do I understand this correctly?

No, I think the emigration to the Basque country was very gradual. Kind of like what we've seen in California, New Mexico and Texas over the past 50 years. Waves of immigrants from Mexico have brought back Native American Y-DNA to these areas. They've come seeking prosperity. The children of those immigrants speak English and their grandchildren no longer speak Spanish. Y-DNA replacement without language replacement.

The Basque Country had similar prosperity, especially due to the natural port of Bilbao. I have first hand knowledge as one of my great-grandparents was born in NE Burgos but lived in the Bilbao suburb of Barakaldo. He would grow his wheat in his Burgos farms and sell them for export in Basque country.


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: JeanL on April 09, 2012, 01:06:52 AM
R-L21

Gascony

Bigorre: 3/44
Bearn: 8/56
Chalosse: 6/58

French Basque

Lapurdi/Baztan: 12/44
Lapurdi Nafarroa: 9/66
Zuberoa: 3/53

Navarra

Roncal and Salazar valleys: 11/53
Central Western Nafarroa:9/60
North Western Nafarroa: 5/51

Spanish Basque

Gipuzkoa: 9/47
SouthWestern Gipuzkoa: 13/57
Araba: 11/51
Bizkaia: 7/57
Western Bizkaia: 2/19

North Spain

Cantabria: 0/18
Burgos: 0/20
La Rioja: 6/54
North Aragon: 1/27

R-L23

Gascony

Bigorre: 3/44
Bearn: 2/56
Chalosse: 0/58

French Basque

Lapurdi/Baztan: 1/44
Lapurdi Nafarroa: 0/66
Zuberoa: 1/53

Navarra

Roncal and Salazar valleys: 0/53
Central Western Nafarroa:0/60
North Western Nafarroa: 0/51

Spanish Basque

Gipuzkoa: 0/47
SouthWestern Gipuzkoa: 0/57
Araba: 0/51
Bizkaia: 1/57
Western Bizkaia: 0/19

North Spain

Cantabria: 0/18
Burgos: 0/20
La Rioja: 1/54
North Aragon: 0/27

R-U106

Gascony

Bigorre: 2/44
Bearn: 0/56
Chalosse: 4/58

French Basque

Lapurdi/Baztan: 0/44
Lapurdi Nafarroa: 1/66
Zuberoa: 0/53

Navarra

Roncal and Salazar valleys: 1/53
Central Western Nafarroa:0/60
North Western Nafarroa: 2/51

Spanish Basque

Gipuzkoa: 0/47
SouthWestern Gipuzkoa: 0/57
Araba: 0/51
Bizkaia: 0/57
Western Bizkaia: 0/19

North Spain

Cantabria: 0/18
Burgos: 1/20
La Rioja: 0/54
North Aragon: 0/27

I-M26

Gascony

Bigorre: 0/44
Bearn: 5/56
Chalosse: 4/58

French Basque

Lapurdi/Baztan: 3/44
Lapurdi Nafarroa: 8/66
Zuberoa: 9/53

Navarra

Roncal and Salazar valleys: 2/53
Central Western Nafarroa:3/60
North Western Nafarroa: 4/51

Spanish Basque

Gipuzkoa: 2/47
SouthWestern Gipuzkoa: 2/57
Araba: 2/51
Bizkaia: 1/57
Western Bizkaia: 1/19

North Spain

Cantabria: 3/18
Burgos: 1/20
La Rioja: 3/54
North Aragon: 4/27

I-M223

Gascony

Bigorre: 4/44
Bearn: 1/56
Chalosse: 4/58

French Basque

Lapurdi/Baztan: 0/44
Lapurdi Nafarroa: 0/66
Zuberoa: 0/53

Navarra

Roncal and Salazar valleys: 0/53
Central Western Nafarroa:2/60
North Western Nafarroa: 0/51

Spanish Basque

Gipuzkoa: 0/47
SouthWestern Gipuzkoa: 0/57
Araba: 0/51
Bizkaia: 0/57
Western Bizkaia: 0/19

North Spain

Cantabria: 0/18
Burgos: 0/20
La Rioja: 0/54
North Aragon: 1/27

I-M253

Gascony

Bigorre: 0/44
Bearn: 1/56
Chalosse: 1/58

French Basque

Lapurdi/Baztan: 1/44
Lapurdi Nafarroa: 0/66
Zuberoa: 0/53

Navarra

Roncal and Salazar valleys: 1/53
Central Western Nafarroa:0/60
North Western Nafarroa: 0/51

Spanish Basque

Gipuzkoa: 2/47
SouthWestern Gipuzkoa: 0/57
Araba: 3/51
Bizkaia: 0/57
Western Bizkaia: 0/19

North Spain

Cantabria: 0/18
Burgos: 1/20
La Rioja: 2/54
North Aragon: 0/27


Title: Re: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 09, 2012, 08:40:49 AM
Interesting that L23 is much better represented in France than Spain.  Kind of suggests a more inland root from the east for L23.