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Title: SRY2627
Post by: Terry Barton on March 10, 2012, 06:33:54 PM
New Topic for SRY2627 started at suggestion of Sam.  As long as this Topic is active, it will stay near the top of the list here at R1b and Subclades.   Terry


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on March 12, 2012, 01:58:01 AM
Thank you. I am quite sure the SRY2627 guys will keep this topic active and lively.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on March 14, 2012, 01:27:55 PM
Yes, Thank you!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on March 15, 2012, 01:28:07 AM
Interesting note. The other day I was fussing about with all the autosomal programs and I came up with a lot of similarities in Poland and in the Valley of Mexico. Such a strange combination. What I thought was peculiar is that SRY2627 is found around the Baltic Sea region (Poland and Sweden) and as well Spain, which is usually has the highest input for Mexico. Then again, the whole thing could be completely off.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on March 15, 2012, 04:56:52 AM
Interesting note. The other day I was fussing about with all the autosomal programs and I came up with a lot of similarities in Poland and in the Valley of Mexico. Such a strange combination. What I thought was peculiar is that SRY2627 is found around the Baltic Sea region (Poland and Sweden) and as well Spain, which is usually has the highest input for Mexico. Then again, the whole thing could be completely off.

Arch

I'm not sure why, but when compared to other P312 clades, Z196 just seems to have more of an Eastern feel about it. I too have both sides of the SRY2627 spectrum showing up, not autosamally mind you, but I'm still receiving matches from both.

I think one of the main issues I've recently had with the Iberian side of things, is that the general consensus seems to be that R1b-L11 clades are much more recent there than once thought. Would this not eliminate Z196 from having origins there? I know quite a few people seem to believe that Z196 is the predominant P312 clade in this area, which it certainly seems to be.. But as I've said before, it seems to be mostly North-South Cluster, M153 and SRY2627. All three are too vague to attach to anything with complete confidence.





Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 15, 2012, 08:31:31 AM
I'm not sure why, but when compared to other P312 clades, Z196 just seems to have more of an Eastern feel about it.
I agree that Z196 is a bit unique, but I would position it as a bit unique in the L11 family.  The other major subclades, U152, U106 and L21, are all pretty segregated and distinct in their predominant territories.  Z196, on the other hand, is quite scattered all over the place.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on March 15, 2012, 08:29:43 PM
I'm not sure why, but when compared to other P312 clades, Z196 just seems to have more of an Eastern feel about it.
I agree that Z196 is a bit unique, but I would position it as a bit unique in the L11 family.  The other major subclades, U152, U106 and L21, are all pretty segregated and distinct in their predominant territories.  Z196, on the other hand, is quite scattered all over the place.

Mike -

How, if at all, might Z196's apparent ubiquity explain SRY2627's appearance, albeit infrequently, in so many places?

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 16, 2012, 05:44:13 PM
I'm not sure why, but when compared to other P312 clades, Z196 just seems to have more of an Eastern feel about it.
I agree that Z196 is a bit unique, but I would position it as a bit unique in the L11 family.  The other major subclades, U152, U106 and L21, are all pretty segregated and distinct in their predominant territories.  Z196, on the other hand, is quite scattered all over the place.
How, if at all, might Z196's apparent ubiquity explain SRY2627's appearance, albeit infrequently, in so many places?

We have to keep in mind that the first SRY2627 guy came from a Z196+ L176.2* guy. That one guy could only be in one place, generally whereas he might have had distant Z196 relatives quite scattered....

However, I think a large part of Z196's scattering came after SRY2627's birth because SRY2627 is somewhat scattered too.... so is the Z196* North-South cluster.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 16, 2012, 06:53:44 PM
I'm not sure why, but when compared to other P312 clades, Z196 just seems to have more of an Eastern feel about it.
I agree that Z196 is a bit unique, but I would position it as a bit unique in the L11 family.  The other major subclades, U152, U106 and L21, are all pretty segregated and distinct in their predominant territories.  Z196, on the other hand, is quite scattered all over the place.

If the apparent dating of P312 and major clades to the beaker period is correct then one thing to bear in mind is many people see an initial phase of thin but wide spread of beakers followed by more localised networks.  That would fit quite well a pattern with a widespread clade or two (Z196* and P312*??) and then growth of clades in more localised contact areas later.  Perhaps the earliest were Z196* and some sort of P312* precursor to L21*, U152* etc and there traces are spread widely but thinly both in genetic and archaeological terms while the rise of U152, L21 etc was in local blocks perhaps a century or two later.  Just a thought.  I seem to recall Maritime beakers being thought of as a very early form of beaker that originated in Portugal but spread thinly out elsewhere.  Most other beaker types are more restricted in distribution and later.  Maybe some day we will be able to link P312 (and perhaps U106) clades with beaker types.  As for L21 and beakers, if there is such a link it would have to be related to some sort of 2nd generation beaker network stretching from the Pyrenees, through Atlantic France to the Atlantic areas of the British Isles (and obviously penetrating inland too to a lesser degree into France and towards the Rhine. I think (in the isles anyway) the beaker phenomenon is not very well understood so any such 2nd generation beaker network remains to be clarrified.  Perhaps U152 is in some way linked to the Rhenish beakers and link to some extent to eastern and SE Britain. I like the idea of a very thin seeding of Europe by P312* and Z196* pioneers followed by localised rises of immediate downstream clades in scattered niches across Europe.  Again that would fit the beaker model.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on March 16, 2012, 08:58:00 PM
I like the idea of a very thin seeding of Europe by P312* and Z196* pioneers followed by localised rises of immediate downstream clades in scattered niches across Europe.  Again that would fit the beaker model.
Do you have any intellectual problem with the notion that that seeding might have been by guys who arrived in boats -- and perhaps w/o wives, cows, plows etc.?

About 35 years ago I wrote a paper exploring the concept of folk traditions among families in the river boatman trade, that were not (like most folk traditions) "rooted in the land;" but were tied to the occupations of males who routinely moved hundreds of miles from one generation to the next, while keeping at the same trades.  My examples were Delaware Valley Swedes who did that sort of thing for at least eight generations (of one surname) in America; I don't know what they did in the old country.

It has been proposed that Bell Beaker pioneers might have arrived in Portugal and other Atlantic fringe areas looking for metal ores, by early in the Bronze Age.  And those of us who are Z196* wonder -- if that happened -- whether they might have been "our" guys, arriving by water from eastern Europe (or western Asia), and probably via the Baltic and North Sea rather than the Mediterranean.  A scenario like that could make sense of the observed wide-but-thin spread of early Z196, and maybe a couple of other haplogroups. 

There are of course an infinite number of scenarios, and I don't hold a particular brief for this one; I just like it as a concept.  It lends itself to explanation of some other observed phenomena such as the relative age of Basque mtDNA vs YDNA, survival of the Mother tongue but not the Father one, and the domestication of Pottock ponies (by guys who knew how to do that, but didn't bring along their own, from the Urals or wherever).  It may also be poppycock, but there doesn't seem to be a ban on that on most of these forums.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on March 17, 2012, 01:43:28 AM
I have to agree with the plausibility of a boat theory widely spreading the subclades around. It's pretty much the premise of Cunliffe's theories of Bronze Age expansion of the Celts.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Richard Rocca on March 17, 2012, 08:10:34 AM
Guys, I'm having a hard time seeing where Z196 is any more or less localized than U152 of L21.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on March 17, 2012, 09:36:11 AM
I think Z196 looks differently localized, not "more" or "less" localized, whatever that means.  And of the two you mentioned, maybe has more in common with L21 than U152?  Or U106.  Anyway it's too early to tell much about it, but testing has begun and presumably the things we say about Z196 will presently be better informed.  If that also helps with things we say about Basques, or Bell Beakers, or L21, so much the better.  We only have a few little clues, so far.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 19, 2012, 11:27:04 PM
Guys, I'm having a hard time seeing where Z196 is any more or less localized than U152 of L21.
We need an actual representative sample and frequency charts for Z196.  It might turn out it looks localized in SW France and the Pyrenees.
Just from the data I've seen in FTDNA projects, it is very lightly scattered all over the place.  There are no places where Z196 is a dominant clade or anything close to that.
However, the DNA projects are not at all representative so we really don't know.

On the other hand, you can look at frequency maps of L21, U152 and U106 and they are obviously configured into patterns where they have a signficant impact.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 04, 2012, 09:26:08 AM
I'm at a Gd of 14 at 37 markers with an Isaacks member of my dna project. He is currently P312 with the deep-clade test still in the works. He has one of our more distinct markers.. 14 repeats at DYS392 and has a paper trail linking him back with the same ancestor as myself.

I've never heard of such a large genetic distance between two people who descend from the same Patriarch.. It doesn't look like he will be of the same line, but lets suppose he is. Is it completely unheard of to have so many mutations from the group modal in such a short time??

*He is an Isaacs as well.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 04, 2012, 09:35:28 AM
I'm at a Gd of 14 at 37 markers with an Isaacks member of my dna project. He is currently P312 with the deep-clade test still in the works. He has one of our more distinct markers.. 14 repeats at DYS392 and has a paper trail linking him back with the same ancestor as myself.

I've never heard of such a large genetic distance between two people who descend from the same Patriarch.. It doesn't look like he will be of the same line, but lets suppose he is. Is it completely unheard of to have so many mutations from the group modal in such a short time??

*He is an Isaacs as well.

It could be that the first 37 markers are an anomaly and that you will have many more matches when tested out to 67 and 111 markers. Certainly we've all had the opposite happen, where we match someone almost perfectly at 37 only to have that other person diverge greatly at 67.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 04, 2012, 09:56:30 AM
I'm at a Gd of 14 at 37 markers with an Isaacks member of my dna project. He is currently P312 with the deep-clade test still in the works. He has one of our more distinct markers.. 14 repeats at DYS392 and has a paper trail linking him back with the same ancestor as myself.

I've never heard of such a large genetic distance between two people who descend from the same Patriarch.. It doesn't look like he will be of the same line, but lets suppose he is. Is it completely unheard of to have so many mutations from the group modal in such a short time??

*He is an Isaacs as well.

It could be that the first 37 markers are an anomaly and that you will have many more matches when tested out to 67 and 111 markers. Certainly we've all had the opposite happen, where we match someone almost perfectly at 37 only to have that other person diverge greatly at 67.

Yes, I've had many a match go out the window beyond the 37 mark. This individual also diverges from the group at the second location of the YCaii, with 24 repeats instead of the usual 23. Is this as you said, something that can be chalked up to an anomaly? From what I gather this marker has a relatively low mutation rate.

Thanks for your help.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on April 04, 2012, 08:53:44 PM
Sam -

What you and Rich have posted is very interesting. How many generations are between you and the mutual Isaacs ancestor whom you mentioned?

YCAII's mutation rate, per John Chandler, is 0.00123 per generation.

Please keep us posted as you receive any news of your potential Isaacs relative's Y-DNA results.

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 05, 2012, 04:03:27 AM
Sam -

What you and Rich have posted is very interesting. How many generations are between you and the mutual Isaacs ancestor whom you mentioned?

YCAII's mutation rate, per John Chandler, is 0.00123 per generation.

Please keep us posted as you receive any news of your potential Isaacs relative's Y-DNA results.

Stephen

Stephen,

We are actually quite distant as far as relation is concerned. My mdka Samuel Isaacks Sr. had two sons.. Samuel Jr and Elisha Isaacs. Most, if not all of the Isaacs in my dna group descend from Samuel Jr. I'm thinking this particular individual is either out of this Elisha line or is possibly from an unknown relative to my mdka.

My project admin. told me that the results are scheduled to be in by the end of April. I'll keep you posted on here or the P312 facebook page.


Sam


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on April 07, 2012, 08:22:34 PM
I wanted to point out this exciting new study of Y-DNA in Basque country:

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2012/03/basque-and-gascon-y-dna-survey.html

It includes SRY2627 at the rates of 13.6% in Bigorre (Haute-Pyrenees France), 9.1% in four regions within the Pyrenees-Atlantiques dept. in France (with 16% in Bearn), 14.8% in La Rioja Spain, and 18.5% in northern Aragon Spain.  It is under 10% in all other regions of the study.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 07, 2012, 08:55:17 PM
I wanted to point out this exciting new study of Y-DNA in Basque country:

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2012/03/basque-and-gascon-y-dna-survey.html

It includes SRY2627 at the rates of 13.6% in Bigorre (Haute-Pyrenees France), 9.1% in four regions within the Pyrenees-Atlantiques dept. in France (with 16% in Bearn), 14.8% in La Rioja Spain, and 18.5% in northern Aragon Spain.  It is under 10% in all other regions of the study.

Thank you for posting this! I do believe 16 percent is the highest percentage for the subclade outside of Iberia. Not that its any great distance from it, but still.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on April 08, 2012, 12:59:16 AM
You're welcome.  P.S.-- I really miss DNA Forums.  What happened to that site?!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 08, 2012, 01:44:47 AM
You're welcome.  P.S.-- I really miss DNA Forums.  What happened to that site?!

From what I gather, the root-admin decided to no longer support the website and essentially let it fall flat on its face. If thats the type of leadership that he displays, then I honestly wouldn't return back to his site. He was in a position to warn us about this, but decided not to. Personal issues or not, this is not the sign of a good leader or anyone I would want to associate with.

Sorry for the rant! I just really enjoyed the website and I'm very disappointed with the way it was carelessly left to die like that.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on April 08, 2012, 11:29:03 AM
I wanted to point out this exciting new study of Y-DNA in Basque country:
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2012/03/basque-and-gascon-y-dna-survey.htm/l

The blog about it looks almost more interesting than the paper, to me.  Because it appears that the blogger is keeping up with more recent SNP discoveries; whereas the paper itself (sent off to be "juried" or whatever, a couple of years ago?) doesn't, and realistically, couldn't.

I don't think Z196 has yet been mentioned in a published, juried paper... has it?  This blog at least mentions it, if sort of incidentally (in distilling the R1b-S-2 subset from the broader P312).  We have gotten past this level and are now focusing on Z209 at least, probably Z220, for the NS cluster -- which at that level still looks nearly pan-European.  If there is an Iberian branch to that side of Z196, it appears to be at a lower (and younger, if not necessarily a lot younger) level:  Z216 or Z278?  Anyway, it's getting more specific and more interesting, as we speak.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on April 08, 2012, 12:10:43 PM
The fate of that website is very unfortunate.  I used to check it every day and the SRY2627 thread was quite lively! 

A caveat about the blog link I posted:  the author is convinced that R1b is paleolithic, a theory which has been discarded by most current theorists on the subject.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on April 08, 2012, 12:28:14 PM
It is possible to be theoretically wrong and still come up with interesting data.  This appears to be such a case.  But maybe I'm just inordinately interested in these particular data.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on April 08, 2012, 12:46:15 PM
Just to clarify, it is the blog writer who holds the paleolithic theory, but the data of the study is separate from that.  He is simply providing a link to the study and offering commentary on it.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on April 08, 2012, 01:51:15 PM
Yes, but that stuff about Z196 isn't in the paper.  Or anyway not in that table; and the map is from Myres et al (2010), before Z196 was discovered and named.  I think the R1b-S-2 detail is from the blogger; maybe from some online board on which such things are discussed.  But whatever incorrect chronology may be attributed to these stats about P312 in Basque areas, I think the outline is likely to be fairly accurate.  That outline includes Z196 by name, if only from it's longest-known subclades SRY2627 and M153.  It's a step in the right phylogenetic direction. 

Little drops of water, little beads of dew.  Gotta start somewhere, and sometime.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on April 08, 2012, 03:39:03 PM
Based on the data of the study, it looks like SRY2627 is found in higher numbers than M153 in the following regions:

Bigorre (Hautes-Pyrenees dept. France), Chalosse (Landes dept. France), Alava Spain, La Rioja Spain, and Cantabria (where it has one occurrence only).  It is tied in Bearn (in Pyrenees-Atlantique dept. France), southern Gipuzkoa and northern Aragon.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on April 09, 2012, 06:44:54 PM
A guy in the R-P312 Yahoo group, David Carlisle, has just noticed that a couple of the new Z-SNPs under L176.2 have become available for testing at FTDNA.  They are Z198 and Z262.  I haven't looked, myself.  But they are on the same level as SRY2627, in Rich Rocca's draft from last spring.  I don't know whether there's much reason for a flurry of testing these new ones.  Maybe Rich will comment.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 09, 2012, 07:47:39 PM
A guy in the R-P312 Yahoo group, David Carlisle, has just noticed that a couple of the new Z-SNPs under L176.2 have become available for testing at FTDNA.  They are Z198 and Z262.  I haven't looked, myself.  But they are on the same level as SRY2627, in Rich Rocca's draft from last spring.  I don't know whether there's much reason for a flurry of testing these new ones.  Maybe Rich will comment.

Both are interesting. Z198 is at the same phologenetic level as L176.2. However, L176.2 is a repeat and is not as stable as most variants used for genealogy. In fact, L176 has also been found in R1a. So, if someone is Z196+L176.2- or Z196+Z209- and doesn't have some of the typical NS values, I would recommend them testing for Z198.

Obviously the choice for testing for Z262 is a little easier. Those that are L176.2+ but SRY2627- should test for it.



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on April 09, 2012, 09:12:22 PM
Like I said on the Yahoo group, the way I read the chart it is still unclear whether Z198 is above or below L176.2, or whether Z262 is above or below SRY2627.  I'm L176.2+ and SRY2627-, also L165-. 


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 09, 2012, 09:38:58 PM
Like I said on the Yahoo group, the way I read the chart it is still unclear whether Z198 is above or below L176.2, or whether Z262 is above or below SRY2627.  I'm L176.2+ and SRY2627-, also L165-.  

As per the 1000 Genomes samples, they seem to be at the same level. If you are already L176.2+, I would skip Z198 altogether and test for Z262.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 09, 2012, 10:10:03 PM
... However, L176.2 is a repeat and is not as stable as most variants used for genealogy. In fact, L176 has also been found in R1a. So, if someone is Z196+L176.2- or Z196+Z209- and doesn't have some of the typical NS values, I would recommend them testing for Z198...
Do we have any reason to think that L176 is biologically unstable?  Some so-called SNPs, such as L69, apparently are.  However, just because an SNP is a "repeat" in a 2nd haplogroup is not necessarily a reason to consider that SNP to be unstable.  Given, the size of the untested population in the world and the frequency at which SNPs occur, many more SNPs are likely to be "repeats." What's important, as always, is the context of a test result.  I personally don't advise anyone to test for just one SNP, their expected "terminal" SNP without considering it context of a matching STR signature or phylogenetic trail of ancestral SNPs mutations.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 09, 2012, 10:37:56 PM
... However, L176.2 is a repeat and is not as stable as most variants used for genealogy. In fact, L176 has also been found in R1a. So, if someone is Z196+L176.2- or Z196+Z209- and doesn't have some of the typical NS values, I would recommend them testing for Z198...
Do we have any reason to think that L176 is biologically unstable?  Some so-called SNPs, such as L69, apparently are.  However, just because an SNP is a "repeat" in a 2nd haplogroup is not necessarily a reason to consider that SNP to be unstable.  Given, the size of the untested population in the world and the frequency at which SNPs occur, many more SNPs are likely to be "repeats." What's important, as always, is the context of a test result.  I personally don't advise anyone to test for just one SNP, their expected "terminal" SNP without considering it context of a matching STR signature or phylogenetic trail of ancestral SNPs mutations.

L176.2 is not an SNP, it is an STR with 6 repeats of AAAAC instead of 5 repeats.

More than likely, it is stable enough, but with it also appearing in an R1a WTY sample it gives a little bit of an uneasy feeling. I would not be shocked if someone who is L176.2- tests Z198+.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 09, 2012, 10:42:18 PM
Do we have any reason to think that L176 is biologically unstable?  
L176.2 is not an SNP, it is an STR with 6 repeats of AAAAC instead of 5 repeats.
Thanks. I didn't know that. I agree, it may be a strong marker of a subclade but we should watch it with a wary eye.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on April 10, 2012, 08:32:29 PM
Do we have any reason to think that L176 is biologically unstable?  
L176.2 is not an SNP, it is an STR with 6 repeats of AAAAC instead of 5 repeats.
Thanks. I didn't know that. I agree, it may be a strong marker of a subclade but we should watch it with a wary eye.
I recall that in at least one of his DNA Forums posts, Didier Vernade described R-L176.2+ as a pentanucleotide insert. :)


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on April 10, 2012, 10:41:20 PM
I ordered both Z198 and Z262.  Hopefully we'll see the results soon.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on April 13, 2012, 11:14:14 AM
Okay, so it looks like SRY2627 is found at frequencies of 7-20% in the Pyrenees region, at 3.5% in Bretagne, and 0-1.5% almost everywhere else.  Does this imply an origin in the Pyrenees with a minority migrating northward?  Or is the alternate theory of a central European origin with twin migrations (one to the northwest and another, more successful one to the southwest) more likely?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 13, 2012, 01:44:23 PM
Okay, so it looks like SRY2627 is found at frequencies of 7-20% in the Pyrenees region, at 3.5% in Bretagne, and 0-1.5% almost everywhere else.  Does this imply an origin in the Pyrenees with a minority migrating northward?  Or is the alternate theory of a central European origin with twin migrations (one to the northwest and another, more successful one to the southwest) more likely?
I think it means the Pyrenees must be considered as origin point for SRY2627 but it does mean it is the origin point. Frequency is not the best indicator of origin.

I think it is worthwhile to look where SRY2627's brothers and cousins can be found. That would include L176.2*, M153, L165, Z196* and Z196* North-South.

This gives us quite a challenge as you find these guys all over the place, including Poland and Scandinavia.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 13, 2012, 02:53:58 PM
I wish we could reference your old variance and diversity findings from dna-forums. Seems like I remember Germany showing higher diversity and equal to and on occasion slightly higher than Iberia in your variance runs.
 
I still like a Central origin point with multiple launch points. Though a Southern origin point is just as likely. Seems like L21 is elbowing for position in Iberia/Pyrenees as well! So who knows? We may have all originated in Iberia.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on April 13, 2012, 04:32:37 PM
I wish we could reference your old variance and diversity findings from dna-forums.

Does this help?  I have the archived messages from that Z196 thread saved as a Word file, so I searched it for "variance" and this was around the 242nd page of that (really long) document.  Mike, if you don't want this displayed, say so and I'll edit the post.

Quote
Mikewww, on 01 July 2011 - 12:23 PM, said:
.... If you look at all of R-P312 (asterisk and subclade assigned) variance does not come out higher south of the Alps nor higher in Iberia. I'll rework what I have as I've now got all the Z196 guys (who have tested) but I don't think much will change. Even in terms of R-P312* (U152- L21- Z196- L238-), I'm not sure it has higher variance if you assume (incorrectly I think) that all of it (P312*) in Iberia is a true subclade or all of it in Italy is a true subclade. From my past runs at this, Iberia may be in the "race" for higher variance but Italy has never been close. U152 has very high variance so it will be hard to beat. I think Z196 will get up there in age as well and may surpass L21 in age.

This is why I question that P312 could have come from the Italian Peninsula into Western Europe. If it did, it's as you might have indicated, it was just a fleeting moment without leaving a trace. This is not to say some R-L23* (L11-) folks weren't there in the peninsula early. .....

Okay, so I went ahead pulled the haplotype files together from the DNA projects and can show deep data (long haplotype view) of the Z196 and the family.

The following are Sum of the Variance results "normalized" or relative to each other. Only 67 STR ht's were used with only confirmed SNP tested folks. Only the 50 non-multi-copy/non-null markers were used.

Here is the Z196 family:
Z196All________: Var=0.90 @1copy50; AvgGD=14, MaxGD=25 @67 (N=182)
L176.2All______: Var=0.90 @1copy50; AvgGD=14, MaxGD=25 @67 (N=182)
SRY2627All_____: Var=0.84 @1copy50; AvgGD=13, MaxGD=27 @67 (N=140)
M153(BasqMkr)__: Var=0.26 @1copy50; AvgGD=6, MaxGD=11 @67 (N=5)
Z196* Z196?*___: Var=0.92 @1copy50; AvgGD=14, MaxGD=22 @67 (N=28)

Z196* Z196?* represents people that are true Z196+ L176.2- M153- people and Z196+ M153- SRY2627- L176.2 unknown people. The NS cluster people fit in with these guys as well as a few sundry others.

Keep in mind that Z196* could get higher variance as we do more testing and if we find more clusters of those folks in the P312* audience beyond NS (p1418) and p1518.

The M153 group is only five so I don't think that is a large enough group to consider valid. Generally, it does appear to very young, though.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on April 14, 2012, 10:04:22 PM
It is interesting that in this new study, SRY2627 is highest in the regions immediately surrounding the Basque country (Bearn and Aragon to the east, La Rioja to the south).

I wonder if its high presence in those regions indicates a historical connection with Aquitanian people that were more easily assimilated to the dominant Celtic and/or Latin culture than the Basques were....


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 14, 2012, 10:45:01 PM
Does this help?  I have the archived messages from that Z196 thread saved as a Word file, so I searched it for "variance" and this was around the 242nd page of that (really long) document.  Mike, if you don't want this displayed, say so and I'll edit the post.

No problem. I guess I should run that stuff again as we have more haplotypes.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 14, 2012, 11:21:21 PM
I wish we could reference your old variance and diversity findings from dna-forums.

Does this help?  I have the archived messages from that Z196 thread saved as a Word file, so I searched it for "variance" and this was around the 242nd page of that (really long) document.  Mike, if you don't want this displayed, say so and I'll edit the post.

Quote
Mikewww, on 01 July 2011 - 12:23 PM, said:
.... If you look at all of R-P312 (asterisk and subclade assigned) variance does not come out higher south of the Alps nor higher in Iberia. I'll rework what I have as I've now got all the Z196 guys (who have tested) but I don't think much will change. Even in terms of R-P312* (U152- L21- Z196- L238-), I'm not sure it has higher variance if you assume (incorrectly I think) that all of it (P312*) in Iberia is a true subclade or all of it in Italy is a true subclade. From my past runs at this, Iberia may be in the "race" for higher variance but Italy has never been close. U152 has very high variance so it will be hard to beat. I think Z196 will get up there in age as well and may surpass L21 in age.

This is why I question that P312 could have come from the Italian Peninsula into Western Europe. If it did, it's as you might have indicated, it was just a fleeting moment without leaving a trace. This is not to say some R-L23* (L11-) folks weren't there in the peninsula early. .....

Okay, so I went ahead pulled the haplotype files together from the DNA projects and can show deep data (long haplotype view) of the Z196 and the family.

The following are Sum of the Variance results "normalized" or relative to each other. Only 67 STR ht's were used with only confirmed SNP tested folks. Only the 50 non-multi-copy/non-null markers were used.

Here is the Z196 family:
Z196All________: Var=0.90 @1copy50; AvgGD=14, MaxGD=25 @67 (N=182)
L176.2All______: Var=0.90 @1copy50; AvgGD=14, MaxGD=25 @67 (N=182)
SRY2627All_____: Var=0.84 @1copy50; AvgGD=13, MaxGD=27 @67 (N=140)
M153(BasqMkr)__: Var=0.26 @1copy50; AvgGD=6, MaxGD=11 @67 (N=5)
Z196* Z196?*___: Var=0.92 @1copy50; AvgGD=14, MaxGD=22 @67 (N=28)

Z196* Z196?* represents people that are true Z196+ L176.2- M153- people and Z196+ M153- SRY2627- L176.2 unknown people. The NS cluster people fit in with these guys as well as a few sundry others.

Keep in mind that Z196* could get higher variance as we do more testing and if we find more clusters of those folks in the P312* audience beyond NS (p1418) and p1518.

The M153 group is only five so I don't think that is a large enough group to consider valid. Generally, it does appear to very young, though.

I'd actually forgot about this one. Yes, thank you.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 14, 2012, 11:23:05 PM
Does this help?  I have the archived messages from that Z196 thread saved as a Word file, so I searched it for "variance" and this was around the 242nd page of that (really long) document.  Mike, if you don't want this displayed, say so and I'll edit the post.

No problem. I guess I should run that stuff again as we have more haplotypes.

Yes, please do! I'm not very computer savy, so I'm not able to run the variance myself. That and I seem to have alot of trouble logging into the yahoo group where you have the info stored.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 19, 2012, 03:37:30 PM
A slight update on the member of my Isaacs group who has a gd of 14 with me at 37 markers. I spoke with my group admin and he informed me that this individual had actually passed away a few years back.

He also informed me that Ftdna has requested additional dna from the person who took over the deceased's account, to complete the Deep-clade test? I didn't think furter samples were required? Seems a little under-handed to me. My admin asked why this was necessary and hasn't received an answer.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on April 22, 2012, 11:15:51 AM
A guy in the R-P312 Yahoo group, David Carlisle, has just noticed that a couple of the new Z-SNPs under L176.2 have become available for testing at FTDNA.  They are Z198 and Z262.  I haven't looked, myself.  But they are on the same level as SRY2627, in Rich Rocca's draft from last spring.  I don't know whether there's much reason for a flurry of testing these new ones.  Maybe Rich will comment.

Both are interesting. Z198 is at the same phologenetic level as L176.2. However, L176.2 is a repeat and is not as stable as most variants used for genealogy. In fact, L176 has also been found in R1a. So, if someone is Z196+L176.2- or Z196+Z209- and doesn't have some of the typical NS values, I would recommend them testing for Z198.

Obviously the choice for testing for Z262 is a little easier. Those that are L176.2+ but SRY2627- should test for it.

Just looking at the Gbrowse at FTDNA today, I see that the current rate of positive tests for Z198 is 0 of 1, and positive for Z262 is 0 of 8. I don't know who has been testing; but if that group of tests is "targeted," the target has been missed, so far.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 23, 2012, 01:00:27 AM
Okay! This may be a huge stab in the dark, but here it goes anyway. It may possibly be that my paternal ancestry in England is connected to the Leicester and Derby area, or more generally in the East Midlands region. This is based on the Toone/Tune and Yeomans connection in Richmond, Virginia and perhaps to Measham, England. All I know is that myself and a Toone test SRY2627+. Also, out of 58 markers, we share a total of 40 that are exactly the same. I did a comparison to Juillet and Toone shares one more common marker than I do to Juillet. Juillet is unique as he and I both have the rare DYS448=17. I have yet to do the GD between myself and Toone, nonetheless, I thought this was interesting find.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 23, 2012, 01:05:27 AM
Update: At 76 markers myself and Toone have a GD of 22.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on April 23, 2012, 03:09:46 PM
Just looking at the Gbrowse at FTDNA today, I see that the current rate of positive tests for Z198 is 0 of 1, and positive for Z262 is 0 of 8. I don't know who has been testing; but if that group of tests is "targeted," the target has been missed, so far.

Interesting.  You'd think one of their Z262 tests would be an SRY2827+, which would indicate Z262 was below, and possibly a rarity below SRY2627.  And you'd think their Z198 test was on an L176.2, suggesting a split between the two markers.

So my L176.2+/SRY2627- kit is likely Z262-, with the Z198 result potentially going either way.

I was thinking that with the 14 new Zs on the chart at the same level as SRY2627, it would be most likely that 7 were above and 7 below SRY2627, with my kit being most likely positive for three of them.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on April 26, 2012, 05:13:48 PM
Update: At 76 markers myself and Toone have a GD of 22.

Arch

A GD of 22 is probably too large (i.e., too far back in time) to determine the precise region of one's ancestry unfortunately.  

My closest GD is 13 of 67 markers, with Rollins of unknown English ancestry, and second closet is 15 of 67 markers, with Fourroux of Bigorre (however he is 490=12), and then 17 of 67 markers, with Gariepy of Chalosse.  This leaves two major regions:  southwest France and Britain/northwestern France as possibilities of origin for my line.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on April 27, 2012, 10:54:43 AM
Just looking at the Gbrowse at FTDNA today, I see that the current rate of positive tests for Z198 is 0 of 1, and positive for Z262 is 0 of 8. I don't know who has been testing; but if that group of tests is "targeted," the target has been missed, so far.

So my L176.2+/SRY2627- kit is likely Z262-, with the Z198 result potentially going either way.


Wrong.  Turns out I'm Z262+ and Z198+ 


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 27, 2012, 11:13:56 AM
Just looking at the Gbrowse at FTDNA today, I see that the current rate of positive tests for Z198 is 0 of 1, and positive for Z262 is 0 of 8. I don't know who has been testing; but if that group of tests is "targeted," the target has been missed, so far.

So my L176.2+/SRY2627- kit is likely Z262-, with the Z198 result potentially going either way.


Wrong.  Turns out I'm Z262+ and Z198+ 

What are the implications?  Does this mean that Z262 and Z198 are on a parallel lineage to SRY2627?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on April 27, 2012, 11:23:44 AM
Just looking at the Gbrowse at FTDNA today, I see that the current rate of positive tests for Z198 is 0 of 1, and positive for Z262 is 0 of 8. I don't know who has been testing; but if that group of tests is "targeted," the target has been missed, so far.

So my L176.2+/SRY2627- kit is likely Z262-, with the Z198 result potentially going either way.


Wrong.  Turns out I'm Z262+ and Z198+ 

What are the implications?  Does this mean that Z262 and Z198 are on a parallel lineage to SRY2627?

And where does L165 fit in? 

I think Z198 and L176.2 are parallel.  And Z262 is above SRY2627, so that all the SRY2627s should be positive for Z262. 

So what is needed to put Z262 on ISOGG? I'm presuming I'm SRY2627- because I have a 66/67 STR match which is SRY2627-, though I've not taken the test myself.  Is this good enough, or do I need to take the SRY2627 test?  Does ISOGG take into account the 1000 Genomes data?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 27, 2012, 11:28:50 AM
Just looking at the Gbrowse at FTDNA today, I see that the current rate of positive tests for Z198 is 0 of 1, and positive for Z262 is 0 of 8. I don't know who has been testing; but if that group of tests is "targeted," the target has been missed, so far.

So my L176.2+/SRY2627- kit is likely Z262-, with the Z198 result potentially going either way.


Wrong.  Turns out I'm Z262+ and Z198+ 

What are the implications?  Does this mean that Z262 and Z198 are on a parallel lineage to SRY2627?

And where does L165 fit in? 

I think Z198 and L176.2 are parallel.  And Z262 is above SRY2627, so that all the SRY2627s should be positive for Z262. 

So what is needed to put Z262 on ISOGG? I'm presuming I'm SRY2627- because I have a 66/67 STR match which is SRY2627-, though I've not taken the test myself.  Is this good enough, or do I need to take the SRY2627 test?  Does ISOGG take into account the 1000 Genomes data?

No, you actually have to validate via SNP testing at a sanctioned (whatever that means) lab, like FTDNA.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on April 27, 2012, 11:38:51 AM

Wrong.  Turns out I'm Z262+ and Z198+ 

What are the implications?  Does this mean that Z262 and Z198 are on a parallel lineage to SRY2627?

One of the implications is that David is more or less a haplogroup, today.... in that the Z262 positive results (per FTDNA Gbrowse) are one for nine.  Actually, two haplogroups -- Z198 also only has one positive, of two tests.

It might be interesting to compare his STR markers to those of the other eight guys who tested Z262, but so far I don't know who they are.  Perhaps their identities are retrievable from the SNP page of the results within R-P312, R1b or SRY2627 projects -- I haven't gone searching for them, and normally I only look at the colorized results anyhow.

Another implication is that sometimes a WAG purchase of a SNP test or two is worthwhile.  Way to go.  Now, if only somebody who knows what it means will see this thread, and tell the rest of us.

Btw there is a similar puzzle going on with Leyton, on the Z209 side of this tree -- Z278+ but M153-, more or less out on a limb by himself.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on April 27, 2012, 11:43:00 AM
Just looking at the Gbrowse at FTDNA today, I see that the current rate of positive tests for Z198 is 0 of 1, and positive for Z262 is 0 of 8. I don't know who has been testing; but if that group of tests is "targeted," the target has been missed, so far.

So my L176.2+/SRY2627- kit is likely Z262-, with the Z198 result potentially going either way.


Wrong.  Turns out I'm Z262+ and Z198+  

What are the implications?  Does this mean that Z262 and Z198 are on a parallel lineage to SRY2627?

And where does L165 fit in?  

I think Z198 and L176.2 are parallel.  And Z262 is above SRY2627, so that all the SRY2627s should be positive for Z262.  

So what is needed to put Z262 on ISOGG? I'm presuming I'm SRY2627- because I have a 66/67 STR match which is SRY2627-, though I've not taken the test myself.  Is this good enough, or do I need to take the SRY2627 test?  Does ISOGG take into account the 1000 Genomes data?

No, you actually have to validate via SNP testing at a sanctioned (whatever that means) lab, like FTDNA.

So what will it take to get Z198 onto ISOGG as equivalent to L176.2 if they can't count the 1000 Genomes data?  Probably an M153 to test Z198 negative, and an SRY2627 and an L165 to test positive?  Is that enough?

Now I notice that the ISOGG M153 and the Draft chart M153 are way different, so my previous comment should be revised.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on April 27, 2012, 11:48:56 AM
One of the implications is that David is more or less a haplogroup, today.... in that the Z262 positive results (per FTDNA Gbrowse) are one for nine.  Actually, two haplogroups -- Z198 also only has one positive, of two tests.

Cool, I'm my own unique haplogroup.  But I want to know who else is in here with me, so I hope we see some new tests soon.



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on April 27, 2012, 01:26:53 PM

It might be interesting to compare his STR markers to those of the other eight guys who tested Z262, but so far I don't know who they are.  Perhaps their identities are retrievable from the SNP page of the results within R-P312, R1b or SRY2627 projects -- I haven't gone searching for them, and normally I only look at the colorized results anyhow.


I'm the only result on the SNP page for the P312, SRY2627 or L165 projects for either Z262 or Z198. 


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 27, 2012, 02:12:10 PM
Very cool! Glad to see some activity and progress for the L176.2 side of Z196. As always, I volunteer my sample for testing if need be.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 28, 2012, 01:22:36 PM
Update: At 76 markers myself and Toone have a GD of 22.

Arch

A GD of 22 is probably too large (i.e., too far back in time) to determine the precise region of one's ancestry unfortunately.  

My closest GD is 13 of 67 markers, with Rollins of unknown English ancestry, and second closet is 15 of 67 markers, with Fourroux of Bigorre (however he is 490=12), and then 17 of 67 markers, with Gariepy of Chalosse.  This leaves two major regions:  southwest France and Britain/northwestern France as possibilities of origin for my line.


True. However, what are the odds of finding another SRY2627+ person and then connecting surnames in the 1600s? The GD was calculated using over 70 markers and this usually makes the GDs bounce up higher.

Arch


 


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on April 28, 2012, 04:51:14 PM
Update: At 76 markers myself and Toone have a GD of 22.

Arch

A GD of 22 is probably too large (i.e., too far back in time) to determine the precise region of one's ancestry unfortunately.  

My closest GD is 13 of 67 markers, with Rollins of unknown English ancestry, and second closet is 15 of 67 markers, with Fourroux of Bigorre (however he is 490=12), and then 17 of 67 markers, with Gariepy of Chalosse.  This leaves two major regions:  southwest France and Britain/northwestern France as possibilities of origin for my line.


True. However, what are the odds of finding another SRY2627+ person and then connecting surnames in the 1600s? The GD was calculated using over 70 markers and this usually makes the GDs bounce up higher.

Arch


 

Oh, I didn't notice that there was a N. America connection.  Good find!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 29, 2012, 11:15:04 PM
Update: At 76 markers myself and Toone have a GD of 22.

Arch

A GD of 22 is probably too large (i.e., too far back in time) to determine the precise region of one's ancestry unfortunately.  

My closest GD is 13 of 67 markers, with Rollins of unknown English ancestry, and second closet is 15 of 67 markers, with Fourroux of Bigorre (however he is 490=12), and then 17 of 67 markers, with Gariepy of Chalosse.  This leaves two major regions:  southwest France and Britain/northwestern France as possibilities of origin for my line.


True. However, what are the odds of finding another SRY2627+ person and then connecting surnames in the 1600s? The GD was calculated using over 70 markers and this usually makes the GDs bounce up higher.

Arch


 

Oh, I didn't notice that there was a N. America connection.  Good find!

Looking back toward's Leicester for Toone's ancestry in Britain, I figured mine can't be too far off. I looked at the surname frequencies in the 1800s and Derbyshire is pretty high up on the list, as well Staffordshire. I also noticed a high frequency around the Derby region itself. Yes, I know that frequency may not indicate any origins but I think the odds are highly favorable of at least finding a genetic connection to this region. Historically, I think the region fits perfectly with my surname given the ballad of Robin Hood. I had no idea that a good portion of Derbyshire was part of Sherwood Forest and possibly close to Barnsdale Forest in the North. My guess is the surname originated from the Midlands region possibly around the mid to late 1300s. I've been scouring places like the famous Macclesfeld Forest, Bosworth, Repton, and many other places in Derbyshire for my surname listings from the 1500s. So far the best hits come from the Repton to Wirksworth area. I just hope I'm onto something and not on something. :-)

Arch


Title: L147.3?
Post by: DavidCar on April 30, 2012, 10:55:48 AM
I see L147.3 is a subclade of L176.2 apparently on the same level as L165 and SRY2627.  It's not that way on any draft trees I've seen, but I find L176.2s with both L147.3+ and L147.3-, and an L165 and a SRY2627 with L147.3-.  Growse says there are 141 derived out of 1974 tested, but I don't see many on the SNP pages of the main P312 projects.  So is it worth testing? 


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on April 30, 2012, 11:12:01 AM
I see L147.3 is a subclade of L176.2 apparently on the same level as L165 and SRY2627.  It's not that way on any draft trees I've seen, but I find L176.2s with both L147.3+ and L147.3-, and an L165 and a SRY2627 with L147.3-.  Growse says there are 141 derived out of 1974 tested, but I don't see many on the SNP pages of the main P312 projects.  So is it worth testing? 

Thanks for posting that, I am also interested  in  this L147.3, is not listed as an option on my FTDNA haplotree.


Title: L147.3
Post by: DavidCar on April 30, 2012, 11:35:55 AM
I see L147.3 is a subclade of L176.2 apparently on the same level as L165 and SRY2627.  It's not that way on any draft trees I've seen, but I find L176.2s with both L147.3+ and L147.3-, and an L165 and a SRY2627 with L147.3-.  Growse says there are 141 derived out of 1974 tested, but I don't see many on the SNP pages of the main P312 projects.  So is it worth testing?  

Thanks for posting that, I am also interested  in  this L147.3, is not listed as an option on my FTDNA haplotree.


It can be ordered through "Advanced Tests" not "Advanced SNP Test" or "My Haplotree".

I've wondered if it was decided that L147 was unstable or something, as it appears in L147.1, L147.2, L147.3 and L147.4 versions.  I also noticed in the Kerchner R1b project that there's an L147.3 that's P312-, so someone's not paying too much attention.  


Title: Any L176.2s or L165s willing to test Z262 or Z198?
Post by: DavidCar on April 30, 2012, 11:47:11 AM
If this looks right I may post it on the Yahoo group to try to get some comparison tests for my Z262 and Z198 results:


---- If an L176.2 tests Z262+:

Adds no new information to the SNP tree.

---- If an L176.2 tests Z262-:

Officially proves Z262 is downstream from L176.2.  This is already known unofficially from the 1000 Genomes data.

---- If an L176.2 tests Z198+:

Adds no new information to the SNP tree.

---- If an L176.2 tests Z198-:

Unexpected new information:  Proves L176.2 is upstream from Z198.


---- If an L165 test Z262+:

New information:  Proves L165 is downstream from Z262

---- If an L165 tests Z262-:

New information:  Proves L165 is not downstream from Z262

---- If an L165 tests Z198+:

Expected but new information:  Proves L165 is downstream from Z198.

---- If an L165 tests Z198-:

Possible but unexpected new information: Proves L176.2 is upstream from Z198, and that L165 is not downstream from Z198.


---- If an SRY2627 test Z262+:

Officially proves SRY2627 is downstream from Z262.  This is already known unofficially from the 1000 Genomes data combined with my Z262+ result and my presumed SRY2627- status.

---- If an SRY2627 tests Z262-:

This should be impossible, but not officially proven to be impossible.

---- If an SRY2627 tests Z198+:

Officially proves SRY2627 is downstream from Z198.  Already known unofficially.

---- If an SRY2627 tests Z198-:

This should be impossible, but not officially proven to be impossible.



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on April 30, 2012, 02:53:27 PM
I see L147.3 is a subclade of L176.2 apparently on the same level as L165 and SRY2627.  It's not that way on any draft trees I've seen, but I find L176.2s with both L147.3+ and L147.3-, and an L165 and a SRY2627 with L147.3-.  Growse says there are 141 derived out of 1974 tested, but I don't see many on the SNP pages of the main P312 projects.  So is it worth testing? 

Thanks for posting that, I am also interested  in  this L147.3, is not listed as an option on my FTDNA haplotree.


I decided to go for it and placed my order for L147.3.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 30, 2012, 05:34:11 PM
I see L147.3 is a subclade of L176.2 apparently on the same level as L165 and SRY2627.  It's not that way on any draft trees I've seen, but I find L176.2s with both L147.3+ and L147.3-, and an L165 and a SRY2627 with L147.3-.  Growse says there are 141 derived out of 1974 tested, but I don't see many on the SNP pages of the main P312 projects.  So is it worth testing? 

I hate to ask, as I've lost track of alot of people from dna-forums, but are you Narky100? He mentioned that L176.2 was his next snp to test and I was very interested in his result if he did test for it.

Thanks for posting that, I am also interested  in  this L147.3, is not listed as an option on my FTDNA haplotree.


I decided to go for it and placed my order for L147.3.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on April 30, 2012, 05:46:44 PM

I hate to ask, as I've lost track of alot of people from dna-forums, but are you Narky100? He mentioned that L176.2 was his next snp to test and I was very interested in his result if he did test for it.


No.  My kit (for my cousin's DNA) is 174435.  The 66/67 match (L165-, SRY2627-) is 131195


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on May 01, 2012, 09:24:53 AM



[/quote]

I decided to go for it and placed my order for L147.3.
[/quote]

I will follow suit, I see I probably will test for all three you mentioned hovering around L176.2 unless is just overkill based on the 1000 Genome results?.
Thanks again.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on May 03, 2012, 05:15:02 PM

I will follow suit, I see I probably will test for all three you mentioned hovering around L176.2 unless is just overkill based on the 1000 Genome results?.
Thanks again.

I don't think there's evidence whether L176.2 is above or below Z198, so you could come back Z198- and prove that they're different and put yourself in a unique category.  So I don't think it's overkill.  All that in my opinion, but it seems most likely that you're positive.  And then you could go either way for Z262 or L147.3.  

Did you get in on yesterday's batch, or are you still thinking about it?  


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on May 05, 2012, 09:23:33 AM



I don't think there's evidence whether L176.2 is above or below Z198, so you could come back Z198- and prove that they're different and put yourself in a unique category.  So I don't think it's overkill.  All that in my opinion, but it seems most likely that you're positive.  And then you could go either way for Z262 or L147.3.  

Did you get in on yesterday's batch, or are you still thinking about it?  


Sorry for the response delay, yes I will test for Z198  and Z262  this weekend.

Isidro


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on May 05, 2012, 04:35:32 PM



I don't think there's evidence whether L176.2 is above or below Z198, so you could come back Z198- and prove that they're different and put yourself in a unique category.  So I don't think it's overkill.  All that in my opinion, but it seems most likely that you're positive.  And then you could go either way for Z262 or L147.3.  

Did you get in on yesterday's batch, or are you still thinking about it?  


Sorry for the response delay, yes I will test for Z198  and Z262  this weekend.

Isidro

It will be interesting to see the results.

(I'm not getting notification of messages here for some reason)


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on May 06, 2012, 10:53:54 AM
Ordered Z198  and Z262 , will keep updates as I get them.

Looks like general interest for L176.2 has been lost for obvious reasons. In my personal lineage iI have a pseudo tracker in the form of DYS454=12, of course is flawed from the get go but other speculations are built on a more shaky background.

My next project is get data for DYS454 from P312, Z196,L176.2,SRY2327 and M153 and see if there is a pattern for this marker that has a mutation rate more rare than all those mutations above combined.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on May 06, 2012, 03:34:36 PM
Looks like general interest for L176.2 has been lost for obvious reasons. In my personal lineage iI have a pseudo tracker in the form of DYS454=12, of course is flawed from the get go but other speculations are built on a more shaky background.

Obvious reasons?  I'm new to testing L176.2, but I've noticed the testing rate for new SNPs here is much less than for my U106/Z8 kit where 5-6 people order a new SNP when it first becomes available. 


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 06, 2012, 05:24:08 PM
I think what Isidro means, is that back before Z196 was discovered, SRY2627 and then L176.2 and L165 were the main and at that time, only Z196 subclades. Since Z196 has been discovered and the rather large North/South cluster was discovered to be apart of it, interest has gone down for the L176.2 branch. Mostly because we aren't the largest group and there are very few L176.2 guys who post on here. We were strong on dna-forums, but since that site dissolved we've sort of disbanded. Thats my take on it anyways, Isidro could have meant something else entirely!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on May 06, 2012, 05:42:27 PM
I think what Isidro means, is that back before Z196 was discovered, SRY2627 and then L176.2 and L165 were the main and at that time, only Z196 subclades. Since Z196 has been discovered and the rather large North/South cluster was discovered to be apart of it, interest has gone down for the L176.2 branch. Mostly because we aren't the largest group and there are very few L176.2 guys who post on here. We were strong on dna-forums, but since that site dissolved we've sort of disbanded. Thats my take on it anyways, Isidro could have meant something else entirely!

You are correct, sorry for not being precise DavidCar.

Z196 has changed priorities about L176.2 meaning in the SNP tree and since it has been found in different places in Europe it lost it's original appeal, on top of it seems like Z196 is widespread also.

One thing I don't know is if L176.2 and the North-South cluster along with Z196* and P312* are riders of the same storm or has been layered back and forth at different times in distant places.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on May 06, 2012, 07:12:08 PM
The demise of dna-forums is unfortunate.

Thanks for the clarifications.  Hopefully we'll see a few more orders that will clarify the relationships between L176.2, L165, and these new SNPs Z198 and Z262 as well as L147.3.

Just out out of curiosity I worked out the following:

I count 171 members in the SRY2627/L176.2 project.  Of those, 135 are SRY2627+, 7 are L165, (there are more L165s in a separate project), 23 are L176.2, and 6 are misc.

Of the 23 L176.2s, 3 are grouped as L147.3+, 2 are proven L147.3-, and 18 are untested for L147.3.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on May 06, 2012, 07:22:53 PM
Z196 has changed priorities about L176.2 meaning in the SNP tree and since it has been found in different places in Europe it lost it's original appeal, on top of it seems like Z196 is widespread also.

One thing I don't know is if L176.2 and the North-South cluster along with Z196* and P312* are riders of the same storm or has been layered back and forth at different times in distant places.

So our L176.2+ proves we're not in the big branch of Z196, and our SRY2627- proves we're not in the big branch under L176.2, so we're sort of the neglected child of the family.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on May 06, 2012, 08:04:15 PM

So our L176.2+ proves we're not in the big branch of Z196, and our SRY2627- proves we're not in the big branch under L176.2, so we're sort of the neglected child of the family.


Maybe just late bloomers.  You have new stuff to test now, it just remains to be seen how some of it fits.  I hate to admit it, but it's looking more and more as if we are all going to have to go to 111 markers (maybe, among other costly upgrades) to sort ourselves out.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on May 06, 2012, 08:26:45 PM
My Z1 kit is at 111, and it turns out to be in a small group well-defined by a few STRs, partly proven and clarified by a few SNPs.  Some of those that were originally grouped nearby because of some STRs eventually became split away by SNPs, so I would go with SNPs when available.

But many members of that group have been willing to upgrade to 111, as well as jump quickly into the new Z-SNPs.  By contrast, I see L176.2 for perhaps the past year or so could have been subdivided by L147.3, but only a few people have taken the test.

So at the present rate I don't see the group getting subdivided very quickly, or that there will be a significant number of 111 upgrades.  But I hope it won't take long to get the local SNP tree well defined.  I have become particularly curious lately as to where L165 branches off with respect to Z198 and Z262.  So hopefully that won't take too long.



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 08, 2012, 04:18:56 PM
For the first time since I've gotten into this hobby, my dna group finally has a "foreign" Isaacs individual testing. His Isaacs are traced back to 1750 in Gloucestershire, England. His mdka was a Samuel Isaacs, sounds familiar,no?, So this is very interesting! He currently resides in Australia, where his family moved to back in the 1950's. Heres to hoping!!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on May 08, 2012, 06:15:22 PM
For the first time since I've gotten into this hobby, my dna group finally has a "foreign" Isaacs individual testing. His Isaacs are traced back to 1750 in Gloucestershire, England. His mdka was a Samuel Isaacs, sounds familiar,no?, So this is very interesting! He currently resides in Australia, where his family moved to back in the 1950's. Heres to hoping!!

Good luck.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on May 10, 2012, 09:24:50 AM
Pending Tests
Tests    Lab Procedure    Batch    Expected    Notes
Z198    Z198    463    6/25/2012    
Z262    Z262    463    6/25/2012

I hope results come earlier, my last L165 test took only 10 days.

Any guess what my results will be?.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on May 10, 2012, 02:30:02 PM
Pending Tests
Tests    Lab Procedure    Batch    Expected    Notes
Z198    Z198    463    6/25/2012    
Z262    Z262    463    6/25/2012

I hope results come earlier, my last L165 test took only 10 days.

Any guess what my results will be?.

No guesses for Z262, but I think you're likely to be Z198+, though a surprise is possible.  I think with enough tests there will be a division one way or another between L176.2 and Z198.

My Z262 took 16 days, and my L147.3 is in batch 462.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 10, 2012, 04:51:34 PM
Pending Tests
Tests    Lab Procedure    Batch    Expected    Notes
Z198    Z198    463    6/25/2012    
Z262    Z262    463    6/25/2012

No guesses for Z262, but I think you're likely to be Z198+, though a surprise is possible.  I think with enough tests there will be a division one way or another between L176.2 and Z198....

It L147.3 is definitely downstream of L176.2 but parallel to SRY2627 and L165, right?

I'm going through a number of surname projects looking for L176.2, L165 and SRY2627 guys.  I've found a few more.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on May 10, 2012, 08:31:42 PM
Pending Tests
Tests    Lab Procedure    Batch    Expected    Notes
Z198    Z198    463    6/25/2012    
Z262    Z262    463    6/25/2012

No guesses for Z262, but I think you're likely to be Z198+, though a surprise is possible.  I think with enough tests there will be a division one way or another between L176.2 and Z198....

It L147.3 is definitely downstream of L176.2 but parallel to SRY2627 and L165, right?

I'm going through a number of surname projects looking for L176.2, L165 and SRY2627 guys.  I've found a few more.


Yes, there are both positive and negative L147.3s under L176.2, but an SRY2627 and an L165 tested negative.  GBrowse shows a bunch more tests, but I have no idea where they are.

I counted 32 L176.2s on your spreadsheet a few days ago, more than the 23 in the SRY2627 group. 


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 11, 2012, 12:00:38 AM
For the first time since I've gotten into this hobby, my dna group finally has a "foreign" Isaacs individual testing. His Isaacs are traced back to 1750 in Gloucestershire, England. His mdka was a Samuel Isaacs, sounds familiar,no?, So this is very interesting! He currently resides in Australia, where his family moved to back in the 1950's. Heres to hoping!!

Good luck.

Thanks, though I have my doubts about this proving to be fruitful.. This persons y-line extends beyond England and goes back into Wales. As you may or may not know, Isaac/Isaacs was very popular among Welsh Non-conformists.

My line is almost assuredly Scots-Irish.. the main piece of evidence for this is my Mdka's grandson.. Samuel Isaacks II.. who owned a Scots Gaelic bible in which he had his name enscribed and he had written "From back home" in it. The bible came from Dunbartonshire, Scotland and was the first fully Scottish Gaelic Old testament bible. Plus he was buried in the oldest Presbyterian cemetry in Lincoln County, Tennesse.. Unfortunately due to the Civil war the church was used as a field hospital and was subsequently torn down as the Union used it for its various purposes.

Interesting fact, This same Samuel owned and operated a Distillery on the same piece of land that Mr. Jack Daniels would eventually set up his distillery, using the same Lincoln county Process that Sam had helped to perfect.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on May 11, 2012, 01:02:32 AM
This same Samuel owned and operated a Distillery on the same piece of land that Mr. Jack Daniels would eventually set up his distillery, using the same Lincoln county Process that Sam had helped to perfect.

Hey, Big Sam, my great-uncle ran the Fayetteville Milling Co.  (His wife was my grandfather's sister -- our flour mill, and most of the family, was in Shelbyville.)  I've ridden on a flour truck over Chestnut Ridge, between those two mills.  Pretty exciting coming down, with a load of flour and no brakes to speak of.  I'll have to see if I have a Lincoln County whiskey jug or two.  Used to try to collect that stuff.

[Edit:  I have "J.V. Carothers, Pure Lincoln County Whiskey;" and "W.W. Alexander's, Fayetteville," which was a saloon mentioned in Goodspeed's history of the county, 1880s.  And of course Jack Daniel's, but that's been Moore Co. since about 1872.]

This comment was not, in the strictest sense, about SRY2627.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 11, 2012, 02:50:58 PM
I've found a few new SRY2627 people, along with some new P312* (that may be Z196) that I'm including in the Haplotype_Data_R-P312xL21 file. I'll post the new file later today.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/files/


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 13, 2012, 02:11:48 AM
This same Samuel owned and operated a Distillery on the same piece of land that Mr. Jack Daniels would eventually set up his distillery, using the same Lincoln county Process that Sam had helped to perfect.

Hey, Big Sam, my great-uncle ran the Fayetteville Milling Co.  (His wife was my grandfather's sister -- our flour mill, and most of the family, was in Shelbyville.)  I've ridden on a flour truck over Chestnut Ridge, between those two mills.  Pretty exciting coming down, with a load of flour and no brakes to speak of.  I'll have to see if I have a Lincoln County whiskey jug or two.  Used to try to collect that stuff.

[Edit:  I have "J.V. Carothers, Pure Lincoln County Whiskey;" and "W.W. Alexander's, Fayetteville," which was a saloon mentioned in Goodspeed's history of the county, 1880s.  And of course Jack Daniel's, but that's been Moore Co. since about 1872.]

This comment was not, in the strictest sense, about SRY2627.

Cool beans! I don't think anyones going to mind our discussion, which in its own distracted way, relates to SRY2627.  Though he isn't my direct ancestor, more of an uncle or maybe even a cousin, this Samuel was distilling whiskey around 1807 on what was to become the same plot of land as the first Jack Daniels distillery.

I remember you used to have your location listed as being in northern Virginia (back on the forums).. My Isaacks first set up camp there in about 1734 in Frederick (Then the massive county known as Old Orange), under what had to have been a Jost Hite land grant. Fairfax wasn't aware his claimed land was being sold until 1735.

I've always wanted to visit. Seeing as how I'm fairly close, South-Central Kentucky.. My Dad is currently working in West Virginia.. Perhaps the next time I pay him a visit I'll head on up to Frederick? Theres not much to be found, Isaacks wise, but I'd still like to see the land my people settled down on.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on May 13, 2012, 09:37:11 AM
[quote author=samIsaack link=topic=10424.msg130996#msg130996
this Samuel was distilling whiskey around 1807 on what was to become the same plot of land as the first Jack Daniels distillery.
[/quote]

That's a little too early for locally branded whiskey jugs... the area was only opened for settlement, or "cleared of the Indian title" as they said, in 1805, I think.  Elk River land is what would be relevant, and the treaties that covered it were the Chickasaw Cession (of 1805) and Dearborn's Treaty.  There were of course some few settlers or squatters while it was still Indian territory; but any such investment was at considerable risk, and unprotected by anything like a courthouse, register of deeds, etc.

http://www.tngenweb.org/tnfirst/chicksaw/treaties.htm

I'll send you a PM -- it's not very obvious, on this forum, that that has happened, so look for it.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on May 14, 2012, 11:30:09 AM
I just saw a note in a U106 thread that FTDNA is backlogged due to recent sales on tests, so getting results for the recently mentioned tests here may take longer that I expected.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 14, 2012, 06:00:19 PM
Since the recent discovery of the two Beaker males being R1b-M269 and the current wide speculation that the beakers are responsible for the R1b distribution we currently see with R-L11* clades and those that descend from this branch.. I feel more than ever that the SRY2627 mutation was probably brought to Iberia via Southwest Germany with the Urnfield culture, itself a descendant of the Beakers.

The timing matches up with this as well as the distribution of SRY2627, though not large, it is spread to everywhere that the Beakers and Urnfielders have turned up. I'm still standing by my statements on other websites, that if Iberia does show up as being the most variant, that this high variance is due to the result of this group being amongst the earliest of the dispersal routes. Though, this doesn't mean I'm completely against a maritime arrival of an L176.2* into Iberia and the downstream mutations occuring later, possibly in Eastern Iberia. Though this still would not explain the complete and total lack of L165 in Iberia. Theres a Northern element to this group and it shouldn't be folded into the southern element, simply because the southern element is the most prominent.

I'm not sure which school of thought is more relevant here, the Iberian origin for Beaker or the more Eastern origins for them.. though from what I gather neither side is more convincing than the other.. so at this point it seems to be more of an opinion based decision rather than a factual one?  The Iberian origin would seem to create a sort of zig-zag pattern across Europe, if you believe that the Urnfielders are considered as coming from Central Europe and then expanding in their star-like pattern, with the Southern element returning back to their ancestral homeland? I know a straight linear path wouldn't make much sense.. so this doesn't seem like an impossible explanation.. It just seems more complex than it has to be. Though human migration is very random and sporadic at times.. I don't know.. I'm just kind of wondering to myself!

Had I known that I would become so interested in all of this I would have considered getting an education in Cultural Anthropolgy and Ethno Linguistics! I'm still young, so I guess its not too late!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 14, 2012, 08:45:34 PM
Since the recent discovery of the two Beaker males being R1b-M269 and the current wide speculation that the beakers are responsible for the R1b distribution we currently see with R-L11* clades and those that descend from this branch.. I feel more than ever that the SRY2627 mutation was probably brought to Iberia via Southwest Germany with the Urnfield culture, itself a descendant of the Beakers.

The timing matches up with this as well as the distribution of SRY2627, though not large, it is spread to everywhere that the Beakers and Urnfielders have turned up. I'm still standing by my statements on other websites, that if Iberia does show up as being the most variant, that this high variance is due to the result of this group being amongst the earliest of the dispersal routes. Though, this doesn't mean I'm completely against a maritime arrival of an L176.2* into Iberia and the downstream mutations occuring later, possibly in Eastern Iberia. Though this still would not explain the complete and total lack of L165 in Iberia. Theres a Northern element to this group and it shouldn't be folded into the southern element, simply because the southern element is the most prominent.

I'm not sure which school of thought is more relevant here, the Iberian origin for Beaker or the more Eastern origins for them.. though from what I gather neither side is more convincing than the other.. so at this point it seems to be more of an opinion based decision rather than a factual one?  The Iberian origin would seem to create a sort of zig-zag pattern across Europe, if you believe that the Urnfielders are considered as coming from Central Europe and then expanding in their star-like pattern, with the Southern element returning back to their ancestral homeland? I know a straight linear path wouldn't make much sense.. so this doesn't seem like an impossible explanation.. It just seems more complex than it has to be. Though human migration is very random and sporadic at times.. I don't know.. I'm just kind of wondering to myself!

Had I known that I would become so interested in all of this I would have considered getting an education in Cultural Anthropolgy and Ethno Linguistics! I'm still young, so I guess its not too late!

P312* in academic studies is a perfect fit for the Iberian international style of Bell Beakers. Given that almost all of P312* in Great Britain, Iberian and Tuscan samples turned out to be DF27+ in the 1000 Genomes Project samples, I see no reason why we can't assume that almost all academia P312* is in fact DF27. Given SRY2627 is most common around the Pyrenees and has its highest variance there, the best bet is that it was there with the Bell Beakers. More than likely SRY2627 got to Britain with the maritime Beakers.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 15, 2012, 03:40:21 AM
Since the recent discovery of the two Beaker males being R1b-M269 and the current wide speculation that the beakers are responsible for the R1b distribution we currently see with R-L11* clades and those that descend from this branch.. I feel more than ever that the SRY2627 mutation was probably brought to Iberia via Southwest Germany with the Urnfield culture, itself a descendant of the Beakers.

The timing matches up with this as well as the distribution of SRY2627, though not large, it is spread to everywhere that the Beakers and Urnfielders have turned up. I'm still standing by my statements on other websites, that if Iberia does show up as being the most variant, that this high variance is due to the result of this group being amongst the earliest of the dispersal routes. Though, this doesn't mean I'm completely against a maritime arrival of an L176.2* into Iberia and the downstream mutations occuring later, possibly in Eastern Iberia. Though this still would not explain the complete and total lack of L165 in Iberia. Theres a Northern element to this group and it shouldn't be folded into the southern element, simply because the southern element is the most prominent.

I'm not sure which school of thought is more relevant here, the Iberian origin for Beaker or the more Eastern origins for them.. though from what I gather neither side is more convincing than the other.. so at this point it seems to be more of an opinion based decision rather than a factual one?  The Iberian origin would seem to create a sort of zig-zag pattern across Europe, if you believe that the Urnfielders are considered as coming from Central Europe and then expanding in their star-like pattern, with the Southern element returning back to their ancestral homeland? I know a straight linear path wouldn't make much sense.. so this doesn't seem like an impossible explanation.. It just seems more complex than it has to be. Though human migration is very random and sporadic at times.. I don't know.. I'm just kind of wondering to myself!

Had I known that I would become so interested in all of this I would have considered getting an education in Cultural Anthropolgy and Ethno Linguistics! I'm still young, so I guess its not too late!

P312* in academic studies is a perfect fit for the Iberian international style of Bell Beakers. Given that almost all of P312* in Great Britain, Iberian and Tuscan samples turned out to be DF27+ in the 1000 Genomes Project samples, I see no reason why we can't assume that almost all academia P312* is in fact DF27. Given SRY2627 is most common around the Pyrenees and has its highest variance there, the best bet is that it was there with the Bell Beakers. More than likely SRY2627 got to Britain with the maritime Beakers.

Thanks, Rich. I'm going to post this on the Facebook P312 group page, if you don't mind? There are a few P312* people who are on the fence about DF27 testing..


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 15, 2012, 08:33:32 AM
...  Given that almost all of P312* in Great Britain, Iberian and Tuscan samples turned out to be DF27+ in the 1000 Genomes Project samples, I see no reason why we can't assume that almost all academia P312* is in fact DF27. ...
I think this is quite possible but I don't think that individual testers should assume this.  A lot P312+ U152- L21- people need to test for DF27.  A lot need to test for Z196 that haven't.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 15, 2012, 08:56:51 AM
...  Given that almost all of P312* in Great Britain, Iberian and Tuscan samples turned out to be DF27+ in the 1000 Genomes Project samples, I see no reason why we can't assume that almost all academia P312* is in fact DF27. ...
I think this is quite possible but I don't think that individual testers should assume this.  A lot P312+ U152- L21- people need to test for DF27.  A lot need to test for Z196 that haven't.

I know some P312* testers feel a little battered from the multiple ancestral results they've received throughout the years and should welcome something that has a higher success probability than WTY SNPs. Hopefully they will embrace DF27.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on May 15, 2012, 09:00:44 AM
A lot P312+ U152- L21- people need to test for DF27.  A lot need to test for Z196 that haven't.
Is there any deep need for people who have tested Z196+ (or positive for one of the SNPs already confirmed as being downstream from Z196) to test DF27?  I may have a different working definition of "confirmed" than someone else; but it's a pocketbook question, not purely theoretical.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 15, 2012, 09:03:54 AM
A lot P312+ U152- L21- people need to test for DF27.  A lot need to test for Z196 that haven't.
Is there any deep need for people who have tested Z196+ (or positive for one of the SNPs already confirmed as being downstream from Z196) to test DF27?  I may have a different working definition of "confirmed" than someone else; but it's a pocketbook question, not purely theoretical.

I'm always sensitive to other people's money, so I my answer would be 'no'. For those that are P312* and negative for everything else...absolutely!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 15, 2012, 09:07:07 AM
Thanks, Rich. I'm going to post this on the Facebook P312 group page, if you don't mind? There are a few P312* people who are on the fence about DF27 testing..

No problem, and I hope it gets more folks to test.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 15, 2012, 05:46:27 PM
Thanks, Rich. I'm going to post this on the Facebook P312 group page, if you don't mind? There are a few P312* people who are on the fence about DF27 testing..

No problem, and I hope it gets more folks to test.

There is currently one P312* with a DF27 test pending, this person has a paper trail to East Anglia.. He has tested negative for Z196. There is also a person of Iberian descent who I'm trying to convince to test for Z196, instead of testing DF27(trying to save them money!). Slowly but surely we're growing in numbers.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 15, 2012, 06:03:57 PM
A lot P312+ U152- L21- people need to test for DF27.  A lot need to test for Z196 that haven't.
Is there any deep need for people who have tested Z196+ (or positive for one of the SNPs already confirmed as being downstream from Z196) to test DF27?  I may have a different working definition of "confirmed" than someone else; but it's a pocketbook question, not purely theoretical.
I'm always sensitive to other people's money, so I my answer would be 'no'. For those that are P312* and negative for everything else...absolutely!

I agree. Perhaps one or two Z196 people need to test DF27 to validate it is upstream of Z196 within the scope FTDNA's testing.  However, someone like Thomas Krahn should have a control sample or WTY information and probably has validation (or will soon) for this.  I recommend that a Z196 advocate directly ask Krahn if he needs an Z196 to validate DF27's position.  Other than for that validation, everyone else who is Z196+, whether tested directly or by phylogenetic default (SRY2627+, L165+, Z209+, etc.) should NOT test for DF27.

On the other hand, everyone who is currently P312*, needs to test be sure to round out their testing of the new Big Three, if they haven't already -  U152, L21 and now DF27.   I think there are cases where someone has a high probability of being positive for an SNP downstream of DF27. In those cases they may chose to intelligent try to skip right to the target terminal SNP.  How do we know who are candidates for skipping to lower levels of the phylogenetic tree?   We need to see at least 67 STRs and then compare with previous testers.  That is much of the reason I created the Haplotype_Data spreadsheets.  If we can reliably cluster P312* people, we can look for matches by cluster and be more efficient in SNP testing.

If anyone doesn't know, I'm a very strong advocate that everyone should test to their terminal SNP (except perhaps if your literal brother or first cousin has already done so.).  Why assume when you can validate?



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on May 15, 2012, 06:15:42 PM
I recommend that a Z196 advocate directly ask Krahn if he needs an Z196 to validate DF27's position.

He already put DF27 on the update of his draft tree eight days ago.  If he's persuaded, I'm persuaded (about that).  Persuaded not to spend the $29 on proving the already proven, that is.

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=65388520

The DF27+, Z196- case could get really interesting, however.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 15, 2012, 06:32:36 PM
....  How do we know who are candidates for skipping to lower levels of the phylogenetic tree?   We need to see at least 67 STRs and then compare with previous testers.  That is much of the reason I created the Haplotype_Data spreadsheets.  ....

I've just reposted the latest P312xL21 ht's spreadsheet. I in the last week went through about one hundred surname projects, about 25 geographic projects along with the big haplogroup projects (P312, U152, SRY2627, L165) to find more SNP tested folks.  As best I can tell, I've included the latest  (newer) pertinent SNP results.

I found another Iberian SRY2627 guy or two to go with another German or two. I even found a couple of M153 guys I hadn't seen before.  I've got 246 SRY2627+ folks, including 18 with 111 STRs.

I've got 83 L165+ guys.  These guys are big testers. 26 of them have 111 STRs.

I've got 34 L176.2* guys.  2 of them are L147.3+.   These guys are quite spread out for a small group. From Sweden to the Isles to Portugal/Spain and then all the way through Hungary to the Ukraine.  There is a little bit of a rhyme in that. LOL.



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 19, 2012, 05:08:55 PM
Is there any way we could a score-sheet of the DF27 data from the 1000 genomes study? Something like the old Z196 score-sheet from the forums?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on May 22, 2012, 04:18:55 AM
Pending Tests
Tests    Lab Procedure    Batch    Expected    Notes
Z198    Z198    463    6/25/2012    
Z262    Z262    463    6/25/2012

I hope results come earlier, my last L165 test took only 10 days.

Any guess what my results will be?.

After much anticipation, it turns out I'm L147.3-.  The test was in batch 462.  It will be interesting to see your results, maybe later this week or early next week.

OK, wait a minute, there are more results here than I thought.  At least two new Z262 results came in, and another Z198+.  Too late to think about it tonight.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on May 22, 2012, 09:10:22 AM


After much anticipation, it turns out I'm L147.3-.  The test was in batch 462.  It will be interesting to see your results, maybe later this week or early next week.

OK, wait a minute, there are more results here than I thought.  At least two new Z262 results came in, and another Z198+.  Too late to think about it tonight.

Fresh news this morning for me too, I am Z262 negative.

I am still waiting for Z198.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on May 22, 2012, 11:39:32 AM


After much anticipation, it turns out I'm L147.3-.  The test was in batch 462.  It will be interesting to see your results, maybe later this week or early next week.

OK, wait a minute, there are more results here than I thought.  At least two new Z262 results came in, and another Z198+.  Too late to think about it tonight.

Fresh news this morning for me too, I am Z262 negative.

I am still waiting for Z198.


I think your Z262- means there's a chance your Z198 could also be negative, which would be interesting, and would put you into a unique category.  But since Noble is Z262-, you might be L147.3+ like him.

The Z262- for Noble proves L147.3 and Z262 are neither above or below each other, when considered together with my result of L147.3- and Z262+.

The Brownson L165+ Z198+ proves L165 doesn't branch off above Z198, but there's still a chance that L147.3 could branch off above Z198. 

That's the way I read the numbers this morning.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on May 25, 2012, 03:00:57 AM
Looking at the latest study on the Basques, it made me reassess why SRY2627 is so prevalent in Catalonia. The test results from 'Evidence of pre-Roman tribal genetic structure in Basques from uniparentally inherited markers' as I understand reflect around 19% SRY2627 in Northern Aragon. I'm not sure which specific region of Northern Aragon the study points and could only assume it would most likely be La Ribagorza due to the close proximity to Catalonia. Earlier studies pointed to 13% around Jaca and then continued to diminish to nearly 5% to 7% west of Canfranc.

Northern Aragon does not look like a place that could be easily entered into from the North, this is particularly noticeable moving towards the east with Catalonia, Val d'Arreu and Val d'Luchon to the North. The other thing I am trying to understand is the widespread of SRY2627 at around 19% to 20% across the Catalan Pyrenees and around 7% for the large Midi-Pyrenees region of France. Across the Catalan Pyrenees the average of SRY2627 appears to be almost evenly distributed averaging around 19% across all counties over mostly northern Catalonia and SE France. Of course, Val d'Aran throws the numbers way up there but I would love to see more people test in order to validate the claims.

The other issue is trying to find studies where SRY2627 percentages exceed those found in Catalonia. I have yet to see anything showing SRY2627 higher than 7% besides a Canary Islands study which I believe connects to Southern France or Mallorca to possibly explain the 13% on one of the islands. Given the length of time SRY2627 has been discovered, I think it has been very well studied and to claim an origins north of the Alps might be a bit premature. In closing, the variance in Iberia outside the Pyrenees seems higher than in Germany, whereas in the Pyrenees its much lower in variance. I wonder if the low diversity (in particular for Val d'Aran is due to isolation) instead of just solely on founder effect from recent history.

 
Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 25, 2012, 05:49:46 PM
I found another couple of SRY2627+ and added him to the Haplotype_Data_R-P312 file.

f30881 yBWAAG Piñero-Castro, b.1800, Juncos, Puerto Rico (Canary Islands/Guanche)
fN13160   y3S2W7 William Castro, b. Spain


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on May 26, 2012, 09:49:01 AM

I think your Z262- means there's a chance your Z198 could also be negative, which would be interesting, and would put you into a unique category.  But since Noble is Z262-, you might be L147.3+ like him.

The Z262- for Noble proves L147.3 and Z262 are neither above or below each other, when considered together with my result of L147.3- and Z262+.

The Brownson L165+ Z198+ proves L165 doesn't branch off above Z198, but there's still a chance that L147.3 could branch off above Z198. 

That's the way I read the numbers this morning.

I should have posted that I have tested negative for everything under L176.2 so far.

If all SRY2627 are Z262+, my negative result distances my branch lineage but puts me in the same location as younger branches M153 and SRY2627.

The impression I have is that older and younger branches of M269 did travel together (along with other haplogroups, I, E,G,J).For example a P312* line and a SRY2627 line could have moved along within  the same tribe for generations, so I was born  geographically in the spot where P312+ Z196+176.2+ and descending branches are majority.

I tested for L165-, that is the group for my closest GD. Interesting thing about Scotland; from the start at 12 markers it always was my closest matches.

Who knows the AMH might have a revival and explain things in a timeline that SNP's can't.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on May 26, 2012, 10:07:18 AM
Who knows the AMH might have a revival and explain things in a timeline that SNP's can't.

It might explain some things, but not the same things.  Modal haplotypes are based on allele counts, and those rise and fall (and at wildly different rates).  SNPs are binary, you have one or don't -- so SNPs are much more powerful (or less ambiguous, anyway) for knowledge, as distinguished from science of the best-guess sort.

That's the general idea, anyway.  Now somebody can go off on the SNPs that aren't binary, the binary events that aren't SNPs, power of statistics as a science, etc.  Please refer to my first sentence, not the oversimplification that followed it.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on May 26, 2012, 10:39:08 AM


It might explain some things, but not the same things.  Modal haplotypes are based on allele counts, and those rise and fall (and at wildly different rates).  SNPs are binary, you have one or don't -- so SNPs are much more powerful (or less ambiguous, anyway) for knowledge, as distinguished from science of the best-guess sort.

That's the general idea, anyway.  Now somebody can go off on the SNPs that aren't binary, the binary events that aren't SNPs, power of statistics as a science, etc.  Please refer to my first sentence, not the oversimplification that followed it.
[/quote]

I can understand SNP's do not reverse like STR's do, once they happened they are signatures that mark a before and after, just that that before and after is utterly unclear since the whole group moved together.
I disagree that will explain different things, now if the testing of SNP's was the same volume as tested STR's it would be another story but the truth is that SNP's found so far have reached a time barrier limit characteristic of the past 4000K years of people's movements. STR's do not have that handicap, it does have other pitfalls  that can lead to inaccurate results but we are dealing with SNP pitfalls, for example U152 but how can you move forward or back in time with that event if we don't know where it came from or how it got there.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: rms2 on May 26, 2012, 10:41:55 AM
If the AMH is going to be helpful, it seems to me it will be at the L11 level, since it cuts across the L11 subclades, beginning with both U106 and P312.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 26, 2012, 03:33:40 PM

I can understand SNP's do not reverse like STR's do, once they happened they are signatures that mark a before and after, just that that before and after is utterly unclear since the whole group moved together.
I disagree that will explain different things, now if the testing of SNP's was the same volume as tested STR's it would be another story but the truth is that SNP's found so far have reached a time barrier limit characteristic of the past 4000K years of people's movements. STR's do not have that handicap, it does have other pitfalls  that can lead to inaccurate results but we are dealing with SNP pitfalls, for example U152 but how can you move forward or back in time with that event if we don't know where it came from or how it got there.

What is the pitfall with U152?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on May 27, 2012, 06:23:12 PM
Looking at the latest study on the Basques, it made me reassess why SRY2627 is so prevalent in Catalonia. The test results from 'Evidence of pre-Roman tribal genetic structure in Basques from uniparentally inherited markers' as I understand reflect around 19% SRY2627 in Northern Aragon. I'm not sure which specific region of Northern Aragon the study points and could only assume it would most likely be La Ribagorza due to the close proximity to Catalonia. Earlier studies pointed to 13% around Jaca and then continued to diminish to nearly 5% to 7% west of Canfranc.

Northern Aragon does not look like a place that could be easily entered into from the North, this is particularly noticeable moving towards the east with Catalonia, Val d'Arreu and Val d'Luchon to the North. The other thing I am trying to understand is the widespread of SRY2627 at around 19% to 20% across the Catalan Pyrenees and around 7% for the large Midi-Pyrenees region of France. Across the Catalan Pyrenees the average of SRY2627 appears to be almost evenly distributed averaging around 19% across all counties over mostly northern Catalonia and SE France. Of course, Val d'Aran throws the numbers way up there but I would love to see more people test in order to validate the claims.

The other issue is trying to find studies where SRY2627 percentages exceed those found in Catalonia. I have yet to see anything showing SRY2627 higher than 7% besides a Canary Islands study which I believe connects to Southern France or Mallorca to possibly explain the 13% on one of the islands. Given the length of time SRY2627 has been discovered, I think it has been very well studied and to claim an origins north of the Alps might be a bit premature. In closing, the variance in Iberia outside the Pyrenees seems higher than in Germany, whereas in the Pyrenees its much lower in variance. I wonder if the low diversity (in particular for Val d'Aran is due to isolation) instead of just solely on founder effect from recent history.

 
Arch

From this same study, I calculate the following percentages above 7%:  Bearn France (16%), which the authors idenitify with the Aquitani tribe, Basse-Navarre France 12% (also identified as Aquitani), Bigorre France 14% (same tribal identification), La Rioja in western Spain (15%, identified with the Berones), and two other areas of Spain (Navarre and Alava at 8% each).  It seems that these are the regions which "surround" the "Basque" regions of France and Spain.  Also keep in mind that the Midi-Pyrenees result was from the city of Toulouse only...


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on May 27, 2012, 09:06:51 PM
Also keep in mind that the Midi-Pyrenees result was from the city of Toulouse only...

This sentence (and I realize that I'm extracting it from its context) triggered a train of thought that got me looking at some old posts, sources and whatnot... relating to the fact that some of the more interesting areas (of present France, especially) seem to be a bit undersampled.  And I'm aware of some cultural bias against Y-DNA testing, having to do with privacy laws, paternity lawsuits, and the popular press.  Anyway, I was wondering -- has anybody tried to use the expatriate Huguenot descendants as a sort of proxy for that undertested population?  I looked casually at their project results (the only way I really can look); I confess I don't see much evidence of SRY2627, and virtually none of the N/S cluster.  But there is a lot of undefined P312 and M269, so looking there wouldn't necessarily be fruitless.  At a minimum, they might want to test DF27.

In case this rings anybody else's bells, here is the project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Huguenot/

There might be some crossover from this Eupedia thread, probably one of many (but I happened to participate a little, helping a guy whose Huguenot ancestor was named Brousse, so I know about this one):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?24932-Genetic-make-up-of-France/page3

And I've accidentally run into a few others; for example a Reno/Blanchard family whose ancestor was something like Raynaud-dit-Planchard in the Limoges area -- and was probably Z220, because Thomas Reno is a fairly close match for me.  Didier Vernade (known to many of us) has SRY2627 ancestry from Bourges.  I'm not trying to accuse any of these guys of being Huguenots; just wondering about the reconstruction of some sort of proxy, from descendants now living elsewhere, in cases in which testing a modern population may be the harder task.

Is that too non-random to have any scientific value?  As far as I'm concerned, it's just a feeble attempt to address the "absence of evidence" issue.  The emigré groups may actually have a little advantage, in that confirmed matching Y-DNA lines from a 17th century ancestor may be stronger evidence than having four grandparent born within 25 miles of some British village -- etc.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on May 28, 2012, 02:31:21 AM
Looking at the latest study on the Basques, it made me reassess why SRY2627 is so prevalent in Catalonia. The test results from 'Evidence of pre-Roman tribal genetic structure in Basques from uniparentally inherited markers' as I understand reflect around 19% SRY2627 in Northern Aragon. I'm not sure which specific region of Northern Aragon the study points and could only assume it would most likely be La Ribagorza due to the close proximity to Catalonia. Earlier studies pointed to 13% around Jaca and then continued to diminish to nearly 5% to 7% west of Canfranc.

Northern Aragon does not look like a place that could be easily entered into from the North, this is particularly noticeable moving towards the east with Catalonia, Val d'Arreu and Val d'Luchon to the North. The other thing I am trying to understand is the widespread of SRY2627 at around 19% to 20% across the Catalan Pyrenees and around 7% for the large Midi-Pyrenees region of France. Across the Catalan Pyrenees the average of SRY2627 appears to be almost evenly distributed averaging around 19% across all counties over mostly northern Catalonia and SE France. Of course, Val d'Aran throws the numbers way up there but I would love to see more people test in order to validate the claims.

The other issue is trying to find studies where SRY2627 percentages exceed those found in Catalonia. I have yet to see anything showing SRY2627 higher than 7% besides a Canary Islands study which I believe connects to Southern France or Mallorca to possibly explain the 13% on one of the islands. Given the length of time SRY2627 has been discovered, I think it has been very well studied and to claim an origins north of the Alps might be a bit premature. In closing, the variance in Iberia outside the Pyrenees seems higher than in Germany, whereas in the Pyrenees its much lower in variance. I wonder if the low diversity (in particular for Val d'Aran is due to isolation) instead of just solely on founder effect from recent history.

 
Arch

From this same study, I calculate the following percentages above 7%:  Bearn France (16%), which the authors idenitify with the Aquitani tribe, Basse-Navarre France 12% (also identified as Aquitani), Bigorre France 14% (same tribal identification), La Rioja in western Spain (15%, identified with the Berones), and two other areas of Spain (Navarre and Alava at 8% each).  It seems that these are the regions which "surround" the "Basque" regions of France and Spain.  Also keep in mind that the Midi-Pyrenees result was from the city of Toulouse only...

I failed to mention the higher than 7% numbers in the latest study. I really don't know why they insisted on testing in large metropolitan areas either from the French study showing 7% SRY2627 in Midi Pyrenees. That drives me batty because of all the influx or waves of different populations and Toulouse has quite a bit of influx since the pre-Roman period. I was hoping they would have tested the more remote regions of Haute Garonne or Ariege Departments in the Midi-Pyrenees region. At least test the people from tiny off-the-beaten path villages where the donors can trace their ancestry to at least 3 generations ago.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on May 28, 2012, 02:55:43 AM
Also keep in mind that the Midi-Pyrenees result was from the city of Toulouse only...

This sentence (and I realize that I'm extracting it from its context) triggered a train of thought that got me looking at some old posts, sources and whatnot... relating to the fact that some of the more interesting areas (of present France, especially) seem to be a bit undersampled.  And I'm aware of some cultural bias against Y-DNA testing, having to do with privacy laws, paternity lawsuits, and the popular press.  Anyway, I was wondering -- has anybody tried to use the expatriate Huguenot descendants as a sort of proxy for that undertested population?  I looked casually at their project results (the only way I really can look); I confess I don't see much evidence of SRY2627, and virtually none of the N/S cluster.  But there is a lot of undefined P312 and M269, so looking there wouldn't necessarily be fruitless.  At a minimum, they might want to test DF27.

In case this rings anybody else's bells, here is the project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Huguenot/

There might be some crossover from this Eupedia thread, probably one of many (but I happened to participate a little, helping a guy whose Huguenot ancestor was named Brousse, so I know about this one):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?24932-Genetic-make-up-of-France/page3

And I've accidentally run into a few others; for example a Reno/Blanchard family whose ancestor was something like Raynaud-dit-Planchard in the Limoges area -- and was probably Z220, because Thomas Reno is a fairly close match for me.  Didier Vernade (known to many of us) has SRY2627 ancestry from Bourges.  I'm not trying to accuse any of these guys of being Huguenots; just wondering about the reconstruction of some sort of proxy, from descendants now living elsewhere, in cases in which testing a modern population may be the harder task.

Is that too non-random to have any scientific value?  As far as I'm concerned, it's just a feeble attempt to address the "absence of evidence" issue.  The emigré groups may actually have a little advantage, in that confirmed matching Y-DNA lines from a 17th century ancestor may be stronger evidence than having four grandparent born within 25 miles of some British village -- etc.

In regards to the absence of evidence issue, how do we claim such things in areas that have been fairly well sampled such as Spain, Belgium, Denmark, Britain, Ireland, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Switzerland, Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Romania, Ukraine, Greece, Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, etc. If SRY2627+ is going to show its face in higher percentages anywhere, it would definitely be in one of these regions that have not been constrained to genetic testing due to legality and privacy issues.

Spain without a doubt has been sampled over and over again over the course of some 13+ years now. I can't imagine an area that has been better studied besides Britain and Ireland. Portugal has been studied quite a bit and the numbers of SRY2627+ are not significant, the highest being near Oporto (when excluding Lisbon). Andorra is the only exception in the Iberian Peninsula that has not been extensively studied and I would just include whatever findings are found in Alt Urgell as basically extending into Andorra anyway.

France, the massive black hole of genetics?? Hardly! More on that later. Switzerland, nothing impressive but we do have some SRY2627+ from this country. Italy, again a few but they are widely spread out from Asiago, Calabria, and Sicily as examples. Belgium, a few here and there. Germany, mostly seems near SW Germany where most SRY2627 are found. Sweden, mostly SE Sweden. Poland, a few. Denmark, a couple. Hungary, approx. one person. All of these regions have also been tested in research papers and SRY2627 just does not show up as much as the studies that have focused on the Pyrenees and rest of the Iberian Peninsula. It's really not for the lack of testing and France has not necessarily been isolated from research and commercial testing either.

In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on May 28, 2012, 10:54:29 AM

I can understand SNP's do not reverse like STR's do, once they happened they are signatures that mark a before and after, just that that before and after is utterly unclear since the whole group moved together.
I disagree that will explain different things, now if the testing of SNP's was the same volume as tested STR's it would be another story but the truth is that SNP's found so far have reached a time barrier limit characteristic of the past 4000K years of people's movements. STR's do not have that handicap, it does have other pitfalls  that can lead to inaccurate results but we are dealing with SNP pitfalls, for example U152 but how can you move forward or back in time with that event if we don't know where it came from or how it got there.

What is the pitfall with U152?
Pitfall in the sense that it lies in the periphery of P312+ concentrations ( I know that the ball of frequency is being thrown according to interests), it is a younger clade of P312 even if it is by seconds. So why being at the outskirts it is speculated as being a distribution point coming from the East and spreading westbound, northwest and southwest bound with older clades.
I know everything is possible but knowing what we know for sure about TMCRA and clade ages does not make sense to me. The only thing I see clearly about M269 in Europe is that the pseudo H35 is showing continuity in East Europe and the only branch that arrived to Europe through inland routes.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on May 28, 2012, 11:00:25 AM
In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

My suggestion has nothing to do with the religious question, apart from the fact that a religious issue caused many of those guys to leave ancestral homes in an interesting (and now relatively untested) central to SW part of what is now called France -- especially around the port of La Rochelle.  The SNPs of anthropological interest happened earlier than Jesus, let alone earlier than the Protestant Reformation or the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

I only suggest that the Huguenot project might be one place, probably of several places, to look for testable candidates.  That is, people with male-line ancestry from that area with visible long haplotypes, who clearly don't mind being tested, and aren't troubled by the laws, politicians, or journalists of France.  As I said, that's not a random sample; but in several other respects it might be better than a ten or twelve marker academic sample in which all the "random" candidates are from Toulouse, etc.

It would obviously produce a different sort of information -- not the present day percent concentration of SNP X in department Y, but perhaps more akin to aDNA, not all that ancient but tested to a level higher than aDNA usually gets tested.  And with confirmation that the SNP in question, with a known place of origin about 325 years ago, survives at present.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on May 28, 2012, 12:54:58 PM
In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

My suggestion has nothing to do with the religious question, apart from the fact that a religious issue caused many of those guys to leave ancestral homes in an interesting (and now relatively untested) central to SW part of what is now called France -- especially around the port of La Rochelle.  The SNPs of anthropological interest happened earlier than Jesus, let alone earlier than the Protestant Reformation or the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

I only suggest that the Huguenot project might be one place, probably of several places, to look for testable candidates.  That is, people with male-line ancestry from that area with visible long haplotypes, who clearly don't mind being tested, and aren't troubled by the laws, politicians, or journalists of France.  As I said, that's not a random sample; but in several other respects it might be better than a ten or twelve marker academic sample in which all the "random" candidates are from Toulouse, etc.

It would obviously produce a different sort of information -- not the present day percent concentration of SNP X in department Y, but perhaps more akin to aDNA, not all that ancient but tested to a level higher than aDNA usually gets tested.  And with confirmation that the SNP in question, with a known place of origin about 325 years ago, survives at present.

When I plotted out SRY2627+ findings in France, the highest percentages clustered around the La Rochelle-Poitou Charentes-Loire Atlantique region. A few also around the Pyrenees-Atlantique region surfaced up as well. Commercially it seems that most SRY2627+ is primarily found on the Atlantic French coastal regions and La Rochelle is the local area with the highest numbers. This makes the possibility of explaining why SRY2627+ is at 13% on El Hierro Island (even though Mallorca could be the source of some too). The Acadians of Nova Scotia mostly trace their lineages to the La Rochelle region, as well many Quebecois. I'm sure the same would have held true for colonies suchs as Port Royale in Charleston, S.C. and the one in Jacksonville, FL (Fort Caroline) had not the Spaniards killed off most of the inhabitants. Many of these early late 16th C. to early 17th C. settlers left the port of La Rochelle. The only problem is finding the New World links of SRY2627 in places like the Acadie region in Nova Scotia and in the Cajuns of Louisiana.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on May 28, 2012, 03:55:29 PM
In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

My suggestion has nothing to do with the religious question, apart from the fact that a religious issue caused many of those guys to leave ancestral homes in an interesting (and now relatively untested) central to SW part of what is now called France -- especially around the port of La Rochelle.  The SNPs of anthropological interest happened earlier than Jesus, let alone earlier than the Protestant Reformation or the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

I only suggest that the Huguenot project might be one place, probably of several places, to look for testable candidates.  That is, people with male-line ancestry from that area with visible long haplotypes, who clearly don't mind being tested, and aren't troubled by the laws, politicians, or journalists of France.  As I said, that's not a random sample; but in several other respects it might be better than a ten or twelve marker academic sample in which all the "random" candidates are from Toulouse, etc.

It would obviously produce a different sort of information -- not the present day percent concentration of SNP X in department Y, but perhaps more akin to aDNA, not all that ancient but tested to a level higher than aDNA usually gets tested.  And with confirmation that the SNP in question, with a known place of origin about 325 years ago, survives at present.

When I plotted out SRY2627+ findings in France, the highest percentages clustered around the La Rochelle-Poitou Charentes-Loire Atlantique region. A few also around the Pyrenees-Atlantique region surfaced up as well. Commercially it seems that most SRY2627+ is primarily found on the Atlantic French coastal regions and La Rochelle is the local area with the highest numbers. This makes the possibility of explaining why SRY2627+ is at 13% on El Hierro Island (even though Mallorca could be the source of some too). The Acadians of Nova Scotia mostly trace their lineages to the La Rochelle region, as well many Quebecois. I'm sure the same would have held true for colonies suchs as Port Royale in Charleston, S.C. and the one in Jacksonville, FL (Fort Caroline) had not the Spaniards killed off most of the inhabitants. Many of these early late 16th C. to early 17th C. settlers left the port of La Rochelle. The only problem is finding the New World links of SRY2627 in places like the Acadie region in Nova Scotia and in the Cajuns of Louisiana.

Arch

I am the only person of Acadian/Cajun origin that has tested as SRY2627.  Most Acadians are L21.  I do strongly suspect that SRY2627 is centered in the Pyrenees region of both France and Spain, and that it made its way up the coast of France and to Britain from there.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on May 28, 2012, 06:39:14 PM
In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

My suggestion has nothing to do with the religious question, apart from the fact that a religious issue caused many of those guys to leave ancestral homes in an interesting (and now relatively untested) central to SW part of what is now called France -- especially around the port of La Rochelle.  The SNPs of anthropological interest happened earlier than Jesus, let alone earlier than the Protestant Reformation or the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

I only suggest that the Huguenot project might be one place, probably of several places, to look for testable candidates.  That is, people with male-line ancestry from that area with visible long haplotypes, who clearly don't mind being tested, and aren't troubled by the laws, politicians, or journalists of France.  As I said, that's not a random sample; but in several other respects it might be better than a ten or twelve marker academic sample in which all the "random" candidates are from Toulouse, etc.

It would obviously produce a different sort of information -- not the present day percent concentration of SNP X in department Y, but perhaps more akin to aDNA, not all that ancient but tested to a level higher than aDNA usually gets tested.  And with confirmation that the SNP in question, with a known place of origin about 325 years ago, survives at present.

When I plotted out SRY2627+ findings in France, the highest percentages clustered around the La Rochelle-Poitou Charentes-Loire Atlantique region. A few also around the Pyrenees-Atlantique region surfaced up as well. Commercially it seems that most SRY2627+ is primarily found on the Atlantic French coastal regions and La Rochelle is the local area with the highest numbers. This makes the possibility of explaining why SRY2627+ is at 13% on El Hierro Island (even though Mallorca could be the source of some too). The Acadians of Nova Scotia mostly trace their lineages to the La Rochelle region, as well many Quebecois. I'm sure the same would have held true for colonies suchs as Port Royale in Charleston, S.C. and the one in Jacksonville, FL (Fort Caroline) had not the Spaniards killed off most of the inhabitants. Many of these early late 16th C. to early 17th C. settlers left the port of La Rochelle. The only problem is finding the New World links of SRY2627 in places like the Acadie region in Nova Scotia and in the Cajuns of Louisiana.

Arch

I am the only person of Acadian/Cajun origin that has tested as SRY2627.  Most Acadians are L21.  I do strongly suspect that SRY2627 is centered in the Pyrenees region of both France and Spain, and that it made its way up the coast of France and to Britain from there.

I think the same thing, if not the Pyrenees then it's very nearby. Which side, North or South is debatable and there seems to be higher variance and diversity as one goes further south of the Pyrenees. I just find it remarkable with all the studies that have been conducted within Ireland and Britain that we are not seeing high numbers of SRY2627 there. Of course, commercial testing shows a substantial amount mainly around the London area. However, there's always a bias of access to testing and advertisement reaching out to people and that can bring up the numbers. Knowing that commercial testing is more accessible in Spain than in France, however, the commercial numbers of SRY2627+ show a higher percentage than Spain. Then of course Germany has iGENEA and I'm sure that draws attention there to get us a higher number of results.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 28, 2012, 06:54:19 PM
In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

My suggestion has nothing to do with the religious question, apart from the fact that a religious issue caused many of those guys to leave ancestral homes in an interesting (and now relatively untested) central to SW part of what is now called France -- especially around the port of La Rochelle.  The SNPs of anthropological interest happened earlier than Jesus, let alone earlier than the Protestant Reformation or the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

I only suggest that the Huguenot project might be one place, probably of several places, to look for testable candidates.  That is, people with male-line ancestry from that area with visible long haplotypes, who clearly don't mind being tested, and aren't troubled by the laws, politicians, or journalists of France.  As I said, that's not a random sample; but in several other respects it might be better than a ten or twelve marker academic sample in which all the "random" candidates are from Toulouse, etc.

It would obviously produce a different sort of information -- not the present day percent concentration of SNP X in department Y, but perhaps more akin to aDNA, not all that ancient but tested to a level higher than aDNA usually gets tested.  And with confirmation that the SNP in question, with a known place of origin about 325 years ago, survives at present.

When I plotted out SRY2627+ findings in France, the highest percentages clustered around the La Rochelle-Poitou Charentes-Loire Atlantique region. A few also around the Pyrenees-Atlantique region surfaced up as well. Commercially it seems that most SRY2627+ is primarily found on the Atlantic French coastal regions and La Rochelle is the local area with the highest numbers. This makes the possibility of explaining why SRY2627+ is at 13% on El Hierro Island (even though Mallorca could be the source of some too). The Acadians of Nova Scotia mostly trace their lineages to the La Rochelle region, as well many Quebecois. I'm sure the same would have held true for colonies suchs as Port Royale in Charleston, S.C. and the one in Jacksonville, FL (Fort Caroline) had not the Spaniards killed off most of the inhabitants. Many of these early late 16th C. to early 17th C. settlers left the port of La Rochelle. The only problem is finding the New World links of SRY2627 in places like the Acadie region in Nova Scotia and in the Cajuns of Louisiana.

Arch

I am the only person of Acadian/Cajun origin that has tested as SRY2627.  Most Acadians are L21.  I do strongly suspect that SRY2627 is centered in the Pyrenees region of both France and Spain, and that it made its way up the coast of France and to Britain from there.

I think the same thing, if not the Pyrenees then it's very nearby. Which side, North or South is debatable and there seems to be higher variance and diversity as one goes further south of the Pyrenees. I just find it remarkable with all the studies that have been conducted within Ireland and Britain that we are not seeing high numbers of SRY2627 there. Of course, commercial testing shows a substantial amount mainly around the London area. However, there's always a bias of access to testing and advertisement reaching out to people and that can bring up the numbers. Knowing that commercial testing is more accessible in Spain than in France, however, the commercial numbers of SRY2627+ show a higher percentage than Spain. Then of course Germany has iGENEA and I'm sure that draws attention there to get us a higher number of results.

Arch

I think it'd be interesting to do another variance run. I'd do it if I knew how! Or was able to easily access Mike's spreadsheats. When Iberia leaves Germany in the dust with regards to variance/diversity, which it has yet to do, I will lay the hatchet down.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on May 28, 2012, 07:39:02 PM
In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

My suggestion has nothing to do with the religious question, apart from the fact that a religious issue caused many of those guys to leave ancestral homes in an interesting (and now relatively untested) central to SW part of what is now called France -- especially around the port of La Rochelle.  The SNPs of anthropological interest happened earlier than Jesus, let alone earlier than the Protestant Reformation or the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

I only suggest that the Huguenot project might be one place, probably of several places, to look for testable candidates.  That is, people with male-line ancestry from that area with visible long haplotypes, who clearly don't mind being tested, and aren't troubled by the laws, politicians, or journalists of France.  As I said, that's not a random sample; but in several other respects it might be better than a ten or twelve marker academic sample in which all the "random" candidates are from Toulouse, etc.

It would obviously produce a different sort of information -- not the present day percent concentration of SNP X in department Y, but perhaps more akin to aDNA, not all that ancient but tested to a level higher than aDNA usually gets tested.  And with confirmation that the SNP in question, with a known place of origin about 325 years ago, survives at present.

When I plotted out SRY2627+ findings in France, the highest percentages clustered around the La Rochelle-Poitou Charentes-Loire Atlantique region. A few also around the Pyrenees-Atlantique region surfaced up as well. Commercially it seems that most SRY2627+ is primarily found on the Atlantic French coastal regions and La Rochelle is the local area with the highest numbers. This makes the possibility of explaining why SRY2627+ is at 13% on El Hierro Island (even though Mallorca could be the source of some too). The Acadians of Nova Scotia mostly trace their lineages to the La Rochelle region, as well many Quebecois. I'm sure the same would have held true for colonies suchs as Port Royale in Charleston, S.C. and the one in Jacksonville, FL (Fort Caroline) had not the Spaniards killed off most of the inhabitants. Many of these early late 16th C. to early 17th C. settlers left the port of La Rochelle. The only problem is finding the New World links of SRY2627 in places like the Acadie region in Nova Scotia and in the Cajuns of Louisiana.

Arch

I am the only person of Acadian/Cajun origin that has tested as SRY2627.  Most Acadians are L21.  I do strongly suspect that SRY2627 is centered in the Pyrenees region of both France and Spain, and that it made its way up the coast of France and to Britain from there.

I think the same thing, if not the Pyrenees then it's very nearby. Which side, North or South is debatable and there seems to be higher variance and diversity as one goes further south of the Pyrenees. I just find it remarkable with all the studies that have been conducted within Ireland and Britain that we are not seeing high numbers of SRY2627 there. Of course, commercial testing shows a substantial amount mainly around the London area. However, there's always a bias of access to testing and advertisement reaching out to people and that can bring up the numbers. Knowing that commercial testing is more accessible in Spain than in France, however, the commercial numbers of SRY2627+ show a higher percentage than Spain. Then of course Germany has iGENEA and I'm sure that draws attention there to get us a higher number of results.

Arch

I think it'd be interesting to do another variance run. I'd do it if I knew how! Or was able to easily access Mike's spreadsheats. When Iberia leaves Germany in the dust with regards to variance/diversity, which it has yet to do, I will lay the hatchet down.

I think Iberia has already exceeded Germany for variance/diversity for SRY2627. It definitely seems to have done so for P312*.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on May 28, 2012, 10:02:18 PM

I think it'd be interesting to do another variance run. I'd do it if I knew how! Or was able to easily access Mike's spreadsheats. When Iberia leaves Germany in the dust with regards to variance/diversity, which it has yet to do, I will lay the hatchet down.

By saying that SRY2627 is "centered" in the Pyrenees, that does not mean it has an origin there.  I think most of the P312 subclades would have come into western Europe from a more north-central location such as Germany.  And it would have arrived there from wherever R1b originated, etc.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 28, 2012, 11:02:56 PM

I think it'd be interesting to do another variance run. I'd do it if I knew how! Or was able to easily access Mike's spreadsheats. When Iberia leaves Germany in the dust with regards to variance/diversity, which it has yet to do, I will lay the hatchet down.

By saying that SRY2627 is "centered" in the Pyrenees, that does not mean it has an origin there.  I think most of the P312 subclades would have come into western Europe from a more north-central location such as Germany.  And it would have arrived there from wherever R1b originated, etc.

Yes I agree, but Arch and myself have had many arguements over this subject and I was referring to his stance on it, not yours.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 28, 2012, 11:08:19 PM
In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

My suggestion has nothing to do with the religious question, apart from the fact that a religious issue caused many of those guys to leave ancestral homes in an interesting (and now relatively untested) central to SW part of what is now called France -- especially around the port of La Rochelle.  The SNPs of anthropological interest happened earlier than Jesus, let alone earlier than the Protestant Reformation or the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

I only suggest that the Huguenot project might be one place, probably of several places, to look for testable candidates.  That is, people with male-line ancestry from that area with visible long haplotypes, who clearly don't mind being tested, and aren't troubled by the laws, politicians, or journalists of France.  As I said, that's not a random sample; but in several other respects it might be better than a ten or twelve marker academic sample in which all the "random" candidates are from Toulouse, etc.

It would obviously produce a different sort of information -- not the present day percent concentration of SNP X in department Y, but perhaps more akin to aDNA, not all that ancient but tested to a level higher than aDNA usually gets tested.  And with confirmation that the SNP in question, with a known place of origin about 325 years ago, survives at present.

When I plotted out SRY2627+ findings in France, the highest percentages clustered around the La Rochelle-Poitou Charentes-Loire Atlantique region. A few also around the Pyrenees-Atlantique region surfaced up as well. Commercially it seems that most SRY2627+ is primarily found on the Atlantic French coastal regions and La Rochelle is the local area with the highest numbers. This makes the possibility of explaining why SRY2627+ is at 13% on El Hierro Island (even though Mallorca could be the source of some too). The Acadians of Nova Scotia mostly trace their lineages to the La Rochelle region, as well many Quebecois. I'm sure the same would have held true for colonies suchs as Port Royale in Charleston, S.C. and the one in Jacksonville, FL (Fort Caroline) had not the Spaniards killed off most of the inhabitants. Many of these early late 16th C. to early 17th C. settlers left the port of La Rochelle. The only problem is finding the New World links of SRY2627 in places like the Acadie region in Nova Scotia and in the Cajuns of Louisiana.

Arch

I am the only person of Acadian/Cajun origin that has tested as SRY2627.  Most Acadians are L21.  I do strongly suspect that SRY2627 is centered in the Pyrenees region of both France and Spain, and that it made its way up the coast of France and to Britain from there.

I think the same thing, if not the Pyrenees then it's very nearby. Which side, North or South is debatable and there seems to be higher variance and diversity as one goes further south of the Pyrenees. I just find it remarkable with all the studies that have been conducted within Ireland and Britain that we are not seeing high numbers of SRY2627 there. Of course, commercial testing shows a substantial amount mainly around the London area. However, there's always a bias of access to testing and advertisement reaching out to people and that can bring up the numbers. Knowing that commercial testing is more accessible in Spain than in France, however, the commercial numbers of SRY2627+ show a higher percentage than Spain. Then of course Germany has iGENEA and I'm sure that draws attention there to get us a higher number of results.

Arch

I think it'd be interesting to do another variance run. I'd do it if I knew how! Or was able to easily access Mike's spreadsheats. When Iberia leaves Germany in the dust with regards to variance/diversity, which it has yet to do, I will lay the hatchet down.

I think Iberia has already exceeded Germany for variance/diversity for SRY2627. It definitely seems to have done so for P312*.

Arch

Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on May 29, 2012, 01:41:10 PM
In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

My suggestion has nothing to do with the religious question, apart from the fact that a religious issue caused many of those guys to leave ancestral homes in an interesting (and now relatively untested) central to SW part of what is now called France -- especially around the port of La Rochelle.  The SNPs of anthropological interest happened earlier than Jesus, let alone earlier than the Protestant Reformation or the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

I only suggest that the Huguenot project might be one place, probably of several places, to look for testable candidates.  That is, people with male-line ancestry from that area with visible long haplotypes, who clearly don't mind being tested, and aren't troubled by the laws, politicians, or journalists of France.  As I said, that's not a random sample; but in several other respects it might be better than a ten or twelve marker academic sample in which all the "random" candidates are from Toulouse, etc.

It would obviously produce a different sort of information -- not the present day percent concentration of SNP X in department Y, but perhaps more akin to aDNA, not all that ancient but tested to a level higher than aDNA usually gets tested.  And with confirmation that the SNP in question, with a known place of origin about 325 years ago, survives at present.

When I plotted out SRY2627+ findings in France, the highest percentages clustered around the La Rochelle-Poitou Charentes-Loire Atlantique region. A few also around the Pyrenees-Atlantique region surfaced up as well. Commercially it seems that most SRY2627+ is primarily found on the Atlantic French coastal regions and La Rochelle is the local area with the highest numbers. This makes the possibility of explaining why SRY2627+ is at 13% on El Hierro Island (even though Mallorca could be the source of some too). The Acadians of Nova Scotia mostly trace their lineages to the La Rochelle region, as well many Quebecois. I'm sure the same would have held true for colonies suchs as Port Royale in Charleston, S.C. and the one in Jacksonville, FL (Fort Caroline) had not the Spaniards killed off most of the inhabitants. Many of these early late 16th C. to early 17th C. settlers left the port of La Rochelle. The only problem is finding the New World links of SRY2627 in places like the Acadie region in Nova Scotia and in the Cajuns of Louisiana.

Arch

I am the only person of Acadian/Cajun origin that has tested as SRY2627.  Most Acadians are L21.  I do strongly suspect that SRY2627 is centered in the Pyrenees region of both France and Spain, and that it made its way up the coast of France and to Britain from there.

I think the same thing, if not the Pyrenees then it's very nearby. Which side, North or South is debatable and there seems to be higher variance and diversity as one goes further south of the Pyrenees. I just find it remarkable with all the studies that have been conducted within Ireland and Britain that we are not seeing high numbers of SRY2627 there. Of course, commercial testing shows a substantial amount mainly around the London area. However, there's always a bias of access to testing and advertisement reaching out to people and that can bring up the numbers. Knowing that commercial testing is more accessible in Spain than in France, however, the commercial numbers of SRY2627+ show a higher percentage than Spain. Then of course Germany has iGENEA and I'm sure that draws attention there to get us a higher number of results.

Arch

I think it'd be interesting to do another variance run. I'd do it if I knew how! Or was able to easily access Mike's spreadsheats. When Iberia leaves Germany in the dust with regards to variance/diversity, which it has yet to do, I will lay the hatchet down.

I think Iberia has already exceeded Germany for variance/diversity for SRY2627. It definitely seems to have done so for P312*.

Arch

Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

I recall the differences were very minute with Germany having a slightly higher variance rate. That was a while ago and since then it seems like we have been getting more results from Iberia.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 29, 2012, 02:44:12 PM
In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

My suggestion has nothing to do with the religious question, apart from the fact that a religious issue caused many of those guys to leave ancestral homes in an interesting (and now relatively untested) central to SW part of what is now called France -- especially around the port of La Rochelle.  The SNPs of anthropological interest happened earlier than Jesus, let alone earlier than the Protestant Reformation or the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

I only suggest that the Huguenot project might be one place, probably of several places, to look for testable candidates.  That is, people with male-line ancestry from that area with visible long haplotypes, who clearly don't mind being tested, and aren't troubled by the laws, politicians, or journalists of France.  As I said, that's not a random sample; but in several other respects it might be better than a ten or twelve marker academic sample in which all the "random" candidates are from Toulouse, etc.

It would obviously produce a different sort of information -- not the present day percent concentration of SNP X in department Y, but perhaps more akin to aDNA, not all that ancient but tested to a level higher than aDNA usually gets tested.  And with confirmation that the SNP in question, with a known place of origin about 325 years ago, survives at present.

When I plotted out SRY2627+ findings in France, the highest percentages clustered around the La Rochelle-Poitou Charentes-Loire Atlantique region. A few also around the Pyrenees-Atlantique region surfaced up as well. Commercially it seems that most SRY2627+ is primarily found on the Atlantic French coastal regions and La Rochelle is the local area with the highest numbers. This makes the possibility of explaining why SRY2627+ is at 13% on El Hierro Island (even though Mallorca could be the source of some too). The Acadians of Nova Scotia mostly trace their lineages to the La Rochelle region, as well many Quebecois. I'm sure the same would have held true for colonies suchs as Port Royale in Charleston, S.C. and the one in Jacksonville, FL (Fort Caroline) had not the Spaniards killed off most of the inhabitants. Many of these early late 16th C. to early 17th C. settlers left the port of La Rochelle. The only problem is finding the New World links of SRY2627 in places like the Acadie region in Nova Scotia and in the Cajuns of Louisiana.

Arch

I am the only person of Acadian/Cajun origin that has tested as SRY2627.  Most Acadians are L21.  I do strongly suspect that SRY2627 is centered in the Pyrenees region of both France and Spain, and that it made its way up the coast of France and to Britain from there.

I think the same thing, if not the Pyrenees then it's very nearby. Which side, North or South is debatable and there seems to be higher variance and diversity as one goes further south of the Pyrenees. I just find it remarkable with all the studies that have been conducted within Ireland and Britain that we are not seeing high numbers of SRY2627 there. Of course, commercial testing shows a substantial amount mainly around the London area. However, there's always a bias of access to testing and advertisement reaching out to people and that can bring up the numbers. Knowing that commercial testing is more accessible in Spain than in France, however, the commercial numbers of SRY2627+ show a higher percentage than Spain. Then of course Germany has iGENEA and I'm sure that draws attention there to get us a higher number of results.

Arch

I think it'd be interesting to do another variance run. I'd do it if I knew how! Or was able to easily access Mike's spreadsheats. When Iberia leaves Germany in the dust with regards to variance/diversity, which it has yet to do, I will lay the hatchet down.

I think Iberia has already exceeded Germany for variance/diversity for SRY2627. It definitely seems to have done so for P312*.

Arch

Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

I recall the differences were very minute with Germany having a slightly higher variance rate. That was a while ago and since then it seems like we have been getting more results from Iberia.

Arch

SRY2627 reaks of Urnfield, if you ask me.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 29, 2012, 04:20:46 PM
SRY2627 reaks of Urnfield, if you ask me.

I wouldn't be surprised if SRY2627 turned up in ancient DNA from the Salomó Bell Beaker group. See here:  http://tinyurl.com/7csk8ml (http://tinyurl.com/7csk8ml)


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on May 29, 2012, 11:16:51 PM
SRY2627 reaks of Urnfield, if you ask me.

I wouldn't be surprised if SRY2627 turned up in ancient DNA from the Salomó Bell Beaker group. See here:  http://tinyurl.com/7csk8ml (http://tinyurl.com/7csk8ml)

I've toyed with that idea of the Cogotas I and II cultures being a phase where SRY2627 possibly emerged; like many things, it's a possibility. I also have a map that shows quite a prevalence of Bell Beaker in Catalonia near the Ebro R. Delta. I'll have to upload it. I thought it was very interesting in the aspect that the number of BB sites were almost equal to those found in Portugal. The rest of Iberia only had minor sites.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on May 30, 2012, 12:18:37 AM
Oops sorry! I could have done tiny URL. Oh well!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 30, 2012, 10:04:21 AM
SRY2627 reaks of Urnfield, if you ask me.

I wouldn't be surprised if SRY2627 turned up in ancient DNA from the Salomó Bell Beaker group. See here:  http://tinyurl.com/7csk8ml (http://tinyurl.com/7csk8ml)

Yes, but I was under the assumption that the Bell Beaker phase was already a thing of the past by the time SRY2627 emerged and expanded? Are you saying that these beakers carried L176.2* and that the SRY2627 mutation occured with them after they settled into Iberia? My money is still on the Urnfielders.. This would link the findings and variances between Iberia and Germany as well as the issue of age.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 30, 2012, 12:03:34 PM
Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

I have some reluctance to post this as I don't feel we have enough long haplotype data, particularly from Germany. I much prefer to do only 67 STR haplotypes in making comparions so here is the relative variance by region.  SRY2627 in France appears to be older than I thought. I show two different methods depending how much you want to  higher allele (usually faster) STRs. All multi-copy and null markers are removed in either method.

SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.94 [Mixed 49]  (N=15)   
SRY2627 France______:  Var=1.06 [Linear 36]  (N=15)   

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.86 [Mixed 49]  (N=9)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.77 [Linear 36]  (N=9)   

SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.84 [Mixed 49]  (N=63)   
SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.80 [Linear 36]  (N=63)   

SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.80 [Mixed 49]  (N=17)   
SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.75 [Linear 36]  (N=17)   


I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia.  Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 30, 2012, 12:19:52 PM
Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

I have some reluctance to post this as I don't feel we have enough long haplotype data, particularly from Germany. I much prefer to do only 67 STR haplotypes in making comparions so here is the relative variance by region.  SRY2627 in France appears to be older than I thought. I show two different methods depending how much you want to  higher allele (usually faster) STRs. All multi-copy and null markers are removed in either method.

SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.94 [Mixed 49]  (N=15)   
SRY2627 France______:  Var=1.06 [Linear 36]  (N=15)   

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.86 [Mixed 49]  (N=9)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.77 [Linear 36]  (N=9)   

SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.84 [Mixed 49]  (N=63)   
SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.80 [Linear 36]  (N=63)   

SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.80 [Mixed 49]  (N=17)   
SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.75 [Linear 36]  (N=17)   


I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia.  Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.


Very interesting! Thank you!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 30, 2012, 01:33:32 PM
Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

I have some reluctance to post this as I don't feel we have enough long haplotype data, particularly from Germany. I much prefer to do only 67 STR haplotypes in making comparions so here is the relative variance by region.  SRY2627 in France appears to be older than I thought. I show two different methods depending how much you want to  higher allele (usually faster) STRs. All multi-copy and null markers are removed in either method.

SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.94 [Mixed 49]  (N=15)   
SRY2627 France______:  Var=1.06 [Linear 36]  (N=15)   

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.86 [Mixed 49]  (N=9)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.77 [Linear 36]  (N=9)   

SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.84 [Mixed 49]  (N=63)   
SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.80 [Linear 36]  (N=63)   

SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.80 [Mixed 49]  (N=17)   
SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.75 [Linear 36]  (N=17)   


I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia.  Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.
I don't advocate using fewer STRs, but in the interest of driving the count (N) of haplotypes up here is the same analysis using 37 STR or greater haplotypes.

SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.87 [Mixed 24]  (N=22)
SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.96 [Linear 16]  (N=22)

SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.79 [Mixed 24]  (N=20)
SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.59 [Linear 16]  (N=20)

SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.78 [Mixed 24]  (N=75)
SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.78 [Linear 16]  (N=75)

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.76 [Mixed 24]  (N=15)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.70 [Linear 16]  (N=15)


What do you think? The numbers are all so close about all I could possibly venture to say is maybe SRY2627 in France is a little older.

I think a couple of other things to consider in context are:
1) Where are the L176.2* and L165+ brothers?
2) Where are the Z196+ L176.2- cousins?
3) Is there a discernible pattern among the SRY2627 490=10 subclade?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on May 30, 2012, 07:38:09 PM
Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

I have some reluctance to post this as I don't feel we have enough long haplotype data, particularly from Germany. I much prefer to do only 67 STR haplotypes in making comparions so here is the relative variance by region.  SRY2627 in France appears to be older than I thought. I show two different methods depending how much you want to  higher allele (usually faster) STRs. All multi-copy and null markers are removed in either method.

SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.94 [Mixed 49]  (N=15)   
SRY2627 France______:  Var=1.06 [Linear 36]  (N=15)   

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.86 [Mixed 49]  (N=9)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.77 [Linear 36]  (N=9)   

SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.84 [Mixed 49]  (N=63)   
SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.80 [Linear 36]  (N=63)   

SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.80 [Mixed 49]  (N=17)   
SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.75 [Linear 36]  (N=17)   


I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia.  Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.
I don't advocate using fewer STRs, but in the interest of driving the count (N) of haplotypes up here is the same analysis using 37 STR or greater haplotypes.

SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.87 [Mixed 24]  (N=22)
SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.96 [Linear 16]  (N=22)

SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.79 [Mixed 24]  (N=20)
SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.59 [Linear 16]  (N=20)

SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.78 [Mixed 24]  (N=75)
SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.78 [Linear 16]  (N=75)

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.76 [Mixed 24]  (N=15)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.70 [Linear 16]  (N=15)


What do you think? The numbers are all so close about all I could possibly venture to say is maybe SRY2627 in France is a little older.

I think a couple of other things to consider in context are:
1) Where are the L176.2* and L165+ brothers?
2) Where are the Z196+ L176.2- cousins?
3) Is there a discernible pattern among the SRY2627 490=10 subclade?

The only pattern I could discern from DYS490=10 is that I couldn't find any in Iberia (just DYS490=12 folks so far). Excluding Britain and Ireland, the highest numbers I could find for DYS490=10 are around the Atlantic regions of France.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on May 30, 2012, 09:15:34 PM
Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

I have some reluctance to post this as I don't feel we have enough long haplotype data, particularly from Germany. I much prefer to do only 67 STR haplotypes in making comparions so here is the relative variance by region.  SRY2627 in France appears to be older than I thought. I show two different methods depending how much you want to  higher allele (usually faster) STRs. All multi-copy and null markers are removed in either method.

SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.94 [Mixed 49]  (N=15)   
SRY2627 France______:  Var=1.06 [Linear 36]  (N=15)   

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.86 [Mixed 49]  (N=9)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.77 [Linear 36]  (N=9)   

SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.84 [Mixed 49]  (N=63)   
SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.80 [Linear 36]  (N=63)   

SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.80 [Mixed 49]  (N=17)   
SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.75 [Linear 36]  (N=17)   


I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia.  Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.
I don't advocate using fewer STRs, but in the interest of driving the count (N) of haplotypes up here is the same analysis using 37 STR or greater haplotypes.

SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.87 [Mixed 24]  (N=22)
SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.96 [Linear 16]  (N=22)

SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.79 [Mixed 24]  (N=20)
SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.59 [Linear 16]  (N=20)

SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.78 [Mixed 24]  (N=75)
SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.78 [Linear 16]  (N=75)

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.76 [Mixed 24]  (N=15)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.70 [Linear 16]  (N=15)


What do you think? The numbers are all so close about all I could possibly venture to say is maybe SRY2627 in France is a little older.

I think a couple of other things to consider in context are:
1) Where are the L176.2* and L165+ brothers?
2) Where are the Z196+ L176.2- cousins?
3) Is there a discernible pattern among the SRY2627 490=10 subclade?

The only pattern I could discern from DYS490=10 is that I couldn't find any in Iberia (just DYS490=12 folks so far). Excluding Britain and Ireland, the highest numbers I could find for DYS490=10 are around the Atlantic regions of France.

Arch

I am not entirely convinced that there is a DYS 490=10 subclade, but would love to learn of any SNP that is associated exclusively with it.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on May 31, 2012, 12:48:54 AM
Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

I have some reluctance to post this as I don't feel we have enough long haplotype data, particularly from Germany. I much prefer to do only 67 STR haplotypes in making comparions so here is the relative variance by region.  SRY2627 in France appears to be older than I thought. I show two different methods depending how much you want to  higher allele (usually faster) STRs. All multi-copy and null markers are removed in either method.

SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.94 [Mixed 49]  (N=15)   
SRY2627 France______:  Var=1.06 [Linear 36]  (N=15)   

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.86 [Mixed 49]  (N=9)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.77 [Linear 36]  (N=9)   

SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.84 [Mixed 49]  (N=63)   
SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.80 [Linear 36]  (N=63)   

SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.80 [Mixed 49]  (N=17)   
SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.75 [Linear 36]  (N=17)   


I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia.  Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.
I don't advocate using fewer STRs, but in the interest of driving the count (N) of haplotypes up here is the same analysis using 37 STR or greater haplotypes.

SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.87 [Mixed 24]  (N=22)
SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.96 [Linear 16]  (N=22)

SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.79 [Mixed 24]  (N=20)
SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.59 [Linear 16]  (N=20)

SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.78 [Mixed 24]  (N=75)
SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.78 [Linear 16]  (N=75)

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.76 [Mixed 24]  (N=15)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.70 [Linear 16]  (N=15)


What do you think? The numbers are all so close about all I could possibly venture to say is maybe SRY2627 in France is a little older.

I think a couple of other things to consider in context are:
1) Where are the L176.2* and L165+ brothers?
2) Where are the Z196+ L176.2- cousins?
3) Is there a discernible pattern among the SRY2627 490=10 subclade?

The only pattern I could discern from DYS490=10 is that I couldn't find any in Iberia (just DYS490=12 folks so far). Excluding Britain and Ireland, the highest numbers I could find for DYS490=10 are around the Atlantic regions of France.

Arch

I am not entirely convinced that there is a DYS 490=10 subclade, but would love to learn of any SNP that is associated exclusively with it.

I agree. It's a split but that's about it, what it signifies I'm not sure. Whether there's a geographical divide associated with the split or perhaps some lapse of time, I can't say. I just wish we knew more about it.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on June 02, 2012, 04:15:23 PM
Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

I have some reluctance to post this as I don't feel we have enough long haplotype data, particularly from Germany. I much prefer to do only 67 STR haplotypes in making comparions so here is the relative variance by region.  SRY2627 in France appears to be older than I thought. I show two different methods depending how much you want to  higher allele (usually faster) STRs. All multi-copy and null markers are removed in either method.

SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.94 [Mixed 49]  (N=15)   
SRY2627 France______:  Var=1.06 [Linear 36]  (N=15)   

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.86 [Mixed 49]  (N=9)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.77 [Linear 36]  (N=9)   

SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.84 [Mixed 49]  (N=63)   
SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.80 [Linear 36]  (N=63)   

SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.80 [Mixed 49]  (N=17)   
SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.75 [Linear 36]  (N=17)   


I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia.  Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.
I don't advocate using fewer STRs, but in the interest of driving the count (N) of haplotypes up here is the same analysis using 37 STR or greater haplotypes.

SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.87 [Mixed 24]  (N=22)
SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.96 [Linear 16]  (N=22)

SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.79 [Mixed 24]  (N=20)
SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.59 [Linear 16]  (N=20)

SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.78 [Mixed 24]  (N=75)
SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.78 [Linear 16]  (N=75)

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.76 [Mixed 24]  (N=15)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.70 [Linear 16]  (N=15)


What do you think? The numbers are all so close about all I could possibly venture to say is maybe SRY2627 in France is a little older.

I think a couple of other things to consider in context are:
1) Where are the L176.2* and L165+ brothers?
2) Where are the Z196+ L176.2- cousins?
3) Is there a discernible pattern among the SRY2627 490=10 subclade?

The only pattern I could discern from DYS490=10 is that I couldn't find any in Iberia (just DYS490=12 folks so far). Excluding Britain and Ireland, the highest numbers I could find for DYS490=10 are around the Atlantic regions of France.

Arch

Arch -

Did you see that DYS490 = 10 pattern on Mike's spreadsheet or on this spreadsheet? http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on June 02, 2012, 04:23:23 PM
Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

I have some reluctance to post this as I don't feel we have enough long haplotype data, particularly from Germany. I much prefer to do only 67 STR haplotypes in making comparions so here is the relative variance by region.  SRY2627 in France appears to be older than I thought. I show two different methods depending how much you want to  higher allele (usually faster) STRs. All multi-copy and null markers are removed in either method.

SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.94 [Mixed 49]  (N=15)   
SRY2627 France______:  Var=1.06 [Linear 36]  (N=15)   

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.86 [Mixed 49]  (N=9)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.77 [Linear 36]  (N=9)   

SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.84 [Mixed 49]  (N=63)   
SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.80 [Linear 36]  (N=63)   

SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.80 [Mixed 49]  (N=17)   
SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.75 [Linear 36]  (N=17)   


I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia.  Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.
I don't advocate using fewer STRs, but in the interest of driving the count (N) of haplotypes up here is the same analysis using 37 STR or greater haplotypes.

SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.87 [Mixed 24]  (N=22)
SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.96 [Linear 16]  (N=22)

SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.79 [Mixed 24]  (N=20)
SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.59 [Linear 16]  (N=20)

SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.78 [Mixed 24]  (N=75)
SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.78 [Linear 16]  (N=75)

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.76 [Mixed 24]  (N=15)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.70 [Linear 16]  (N=15)


What do you think? The numbers are all so close about all I could possibly venture to say is maybe SRY2627 in France is a little older.

I think a couple of other things to consider in context are:
1) Where are the L176.2* and L165+ brothers?
2) Where are the Z196+ L176.2- cousins?
3) Is there a discernible pattern among the SRY2627 490=10 subclade?

The only pattern I could discern from DYS490=10 is that I couldn't find any in Iberia (just DYS490=12 folks so far). Excluding Britain and Ireland, the highest numbers I could find for DYS490=10 are around the Atlantic regions of France.

Arch

I am not entirely convinced that there is a DYS 490=10 subclade, but would love to learn of any SNP that is associated exclusively with it.

Jason -

One DYS490 = 10 SRY2627+ individual has R-L628+ and another DYS490 = 10 individual has R-L659+; L628+ and L659+ are private SNPs. I am SRY2627+ (DYS490 = 10, DYS425 = null, DYS525 = 6) and have not tested any SNPS downstream from SRY2627+.

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on June 02, 2012, 04:42:12 PM
Jason -

One DYS490 = 10 SRY2627+ individual has R-L628+ and another DYS490 = 10 individual has R-L659+; L628+ and L659+ are private SNPs. I am SRY2627+ (DYS490 = 10, DYS425 = null, DYS525 = 6) and have not tested any SNPS downstream from SRY2627+.

Stephen

I am not sure if this is what you intended, but this information leads me to believe that there is not a universal SNP associated with DYS 490=10.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 02, 2012, 06:21:32 PM
One DYS490 = 10 SRY2627+ individual has R-L628+ and another DYS490 = 10 individual has R-L659+; L628+ and L659+ are private SNPs. I am SRY2627+ (DYS490 = 10, DYS425 = null, DYS525 = 6) and have not tested any SNPS downstream from SRY2627+.
Stephen

I am not sure if this is what you intended, but this information leads me to believe that there is not a universal SNP associated with DYS 490=10.

I recognize that SRY2627+ 4090=10 people are not marked by a unique SNP, at least yet.  Hoewever, 4090=10 is such a rare occurrence that I think we could consider this a reliable clade.

Out of about 5000 P312 confirmed people tested for 490, outside of SRY2627, only 3 are 490=10. There aren't that many 490=11's even. 490=12 is modal.  I just think the odds are very great that if you are SRY2767+ and 490=10 then you are probably more closely related to all of the other SRY2627+ 490=10 folks than to the SRY2627=12 folks. That makes 490=10 a clade for SRY2627.

Here are the SRY2627 490=10 guys that have Old World MDKA's in our DNA projects.  There are a couple from Spain, but there are more from France and Germany.

f116134   Schoenberg   Hungary, Szecseny (Jewish project)
fE10868   Alberti   Italy, Veneto, Vicenza, Foza
fN77509   Bergey   Switzerland
fN22590   Bürgi   Switzerland, Bern, Bern-Mittelland, Biglen
fN14866   García   (Basque project)
fN77006   Gariépy   France, Aquitaine, Landes, Montfort-en-Chalosse (Basque project)
fN42387   Vernade   France, Centre, Cher, Bourges
f108419   Luguet   France, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, Pas-de-Calais, Guînes
f62986   David dit St. Michel   France, Pays de la Loire, Loire-Atlantique, Nantes
f126548   Juillet   France, Pays de la Loire, Vendée, Loge Fougereuse
f148371   Brousse   France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, Cognac
f156899   Bouzanquet   France, Languedoc-Roussillon, Gard, St. Laurent d'Aigouze
f59578   Bruce   France
yS865H   Chauncey   France
f6151   Ford   France
fE8915   Marotte   France
f23253   Bourgeois   France
f123844   Backes   Germany, Saarland, Bliesen
f153374   Ankele   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Württemberg
f144761   Keller   Germany
f81253   Knoll   Germany
yYPXDZ   Roush   Germany
fN13160   Castro   Spain
fN51668   Homs   Spain
f72456   Rael de Aguilar   Spain, Murcia, Murcia, Lorca (on Med)
fE2318   Wangermez   Belgium, Wallonia, Hainaut, Beclers
f197077   Cox   England, London
f63499   Stubbs   England, London (?)
f66051   Jillard   England, South West, Devonshire, Plymouth
f89050   Collings   England, South West, Devonshire, Plymouth, Stoke
f27573   Mede   England, South West, North Somerset, Wraxall
yPXJ8M   Bartram   England
yWBB7X   Dickens   England
fN56479   Dickens   England
yJXUJ3   Gossett   England
f73126   Gossett   England
f60093   Hawxhurst   England
fN41476   Palmer   England
f114648   Parrish   England
f97633   Parrish   England
fN6312   Stafford   England
f69097   Stubbs   England
fN17915   Taber   England
f84172   Toone   England
fN16281   Yeomans   England
f94975   zzzUnkName   England
f151956   zzzUnkName   England
f89260   Guest   Ireland, Munster, Co. Tipperary, Cloughjordan
f80412   Simpson   Ireland, Ulster
yGGV7R   Gray   Ireland
f55998   Henry   Ireland
f31950   Hodges   Ireland
f154890   Linton   Ireland
f37755   Martin   Ireland
f51691   Paterson   Scotland, Strathclyde, Lanarkshire, Carmichael
yQ996Y   Linton   Scotland
yCU93Y   Raglan   Scotland
fN4959   Bingham   UK
f15772   Devericks   UK
fN31085   Johnson   Sweden


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on June 02, 2012, 08:25:31 PM
One DYS490 = 10 SRY2627+ individual has R-L628+ and another DYS490 = 10 individual has R-L659+; L628+ and L659+ are private SNPs. I am SRY2627+ (DYS490 = 10, DYS425 = null, DYS525 = 6) and have not tested any SNPS downstream from SRY2627+.
Stephen

I am not sure if this is what you intended, but this information leads me to believe that there is not a universal SNP associated with DYS 490=10.

I recognize that SRY2627+ 4090=10 people are not marked by a unique SNP, at least yet.  Hoewever, 4090=10 is such a rare occurrence that I think we could consider this a reliable clade.

Out of about 5000 P312 confirmed people tested for 490, outside of SRY2627, only 3 are 490=10. There aren't that many 490=11's even. 490=12 is modal.  I just think the odds are very great that if you are SRY2767+ and 490=10 then you are probably more closely related to all of the other SRY2627+ 490=10 folks than to the SRY2627=12 folks. That makes 490=10 a clade for SRY2627.

Here are the SRY2627 490=10 guys that have Old World MDKA's in our DNA projects.  There are a couple from Spain, but there are more from France and Germany.

f116134   Schoenberg   Hungary, Szecseny (Jewish project)
fE10868   Alberti   Italy, Veneto, Vicenza, Foza
fN77509   Bergey   Switzerland
fN22590   Bürgi   Switzerland, Bern, Bern-Mittelland, Biglen
fN14866   García   (Basque project)
fN77006   Gariépy   France, Aquitaine, Landes, Montfort-en-Chalosse (Basque project)
fN42387   Vernade   France, Centre, Cher, Bourges
f108419   Luguet   France, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, Pas-de-Calais, Guînes
f62986   David dit St. Michel   France, Pays de la Loire, Loire-Atlantique, Nantes
f126548   Juillet   France, Pays de la Loire, Vendée, Loge Fougereuse
f148371   Brousse   France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, Cognac
f156899   Bouzanquet   France, Languedoc-Roussillon, Gard, St. Laurent d'Aigouze
f59578   Bruce   France
yS865H   Chauncey   France
f6151   Ford   France
fE8915   Marotte   France
f23253   Bourgeois   France
f123844   Backes   Germany, Saarland, Bliesen
f153374   Ankele   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Württemberg
f144761   Keller   Germany
f81253   Knoll   Germany
yYPXDZ   Roush   Germany
fN13160   Castro   Spain
fN51668   Homs   Spain
f72456   Rael de Aguilar   Spain, Murcia, Murcia, Lorca (on Med)
fE2318   Wangermez   Belgium, Wallonia, Hainaut, Beclers
f197077   Cox   England, London
f63499   Stubbs   England, London (?)
f66051   Jillard   England, South West, Devonshire, Plymouth
f89050   Collings   England, South West, Devonshire, Plymouth, Stoke
f27573   Mede   England, South West, North Somerset, Wraxall
yPXJ8M   Bartram   England
yWBB7X   Dickens   England
fN56479   Dickens   England
yJXUJ3   Gossett   England
f73126   Gossett   England
f60093   Hawxhurst   England
fN41476   Palmer   England
f114648   Parrish   England
f97633   Parrish   England
fN6312   Stafford   England
f69097   Stubbs   England
fN17915   Taber   England
f84172   Toone   England
fN16281   Yeomans   England
f94975   zzzUnkName   England
f151956   zzzUnkName   England
f89260   Guest   Ireland, Munster, Co. Tipperary, Cloughjordan
f80412   Simpson   Ireland, Ulster
yGGV7R   Gray   Ireland
f55998   Henry   Ireland
f31950   Hodges   Ireland
f154890   Linton   Ireland
f37755   Martin   Ireland
f51691   Paterson   Scotland, Strathclyde, Lanarkshire, Carmichael
yQ996Y   Linton   Scotland
yCU93Y   Raglan   Scotland
fN4959   Bingham   UK
f15772   Devericks   UK
fN31085   Johnson   Sweden


Mike -

My SRY2627+ genetic cousins of whom I am aware (about 30 more than the approximately half dozen that I see in your list), most of whom are in two DNA projects, one of which I administer, could be added to your list.

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 03, 2012, 11:41:15 PM
One DYS490 = 10 SRY2627+ individual has R-L628+ and another DYS490 = 10 individual has R-L659+; L628+ and L659+ are private SNPs. I am SRY2627+ (DYS490 = 10, DYS425 = null, DYS525 = 6) and have not tested any SNPS downstream from SRY2627+.
Stephen

I am not sure if this is what you intended, but this information leads me to believe that there is not a universal SNP associated with DYS 490=10.

I recognize that SRY2627+ 4090=10 people are not marked by a unique SNP, at least yet.  Hoewever, 4090=10 is such a rare occurrence that I think we could consider this a reliable clade.

Out of about 5000 P312 confirmed people tested for 490, outside of SRY2627, only 3 are 490=10. There aren't that many 490=11's even. 490=12 is modal.  I just think the odds are very great that if you are SRY2767+ and 490=10 then you are probably more closely related to all of the other SRY2627+ 490=10 folks than to the SRY2627=12 folks. That makes 490=10 a clade for SRY2627.

Here are the SRY2627 490=10 guys that have Old World MDKA's in our DNA projects.  There are a couple from Spain, but there are more from France and Germany.

f116134   Schoenberg   Hungary, Szecseny (Jewish project)
fE10868   Alberti   Italy, Veneto, Vicenza, Foza
fN77509   Bergey   Switzerland
fN22590   Bürgi   Switzerland, Bern, Bern-Mittelland, Biglen
fN14866   García   (Basque project)
fN77006   Gariépy   France, Aquitaine, Landes, Montfort-en-Chalosse (Basque project)
fN42387   Vernade   France, Centre, Cher, Bourges
f108419   Luguet   France, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, Pas-de-Calais, Guînes
f62986   David dit St. Michel   France, Pays de la Loire, Loire-Atlantique, Nantes
f126548   Juillet   France, Pays de la Loire, Vendée, Loge Fougereuse
f148371   Brousse   France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, Cognac
f156899   Bouzanquet   France, Languedoc-Roussillon, Gard, St. Laurent d'Aigouze
f59578   Bruce   France
yS865H   Chauncey   France
f6151   Ford   France
fE8915   Marotte   France
f23253   Bourgeois   France
f123844   Backes   Germany, Saarland, Bliesen
f153374   Ankele   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Württemberg
f144761   Keller   Germany
f81253   Knoll   Germany
yYPXDZ   Roush   Germany
fN13160   Castro   Spain
fN51668   Homs   Spain
f72456   Rael de Aguilar   Spain, Murcia, Murcia, Lorca (on Med)
fE2318   Wangermez   Belgium, Wallonia, Hainaut, Beclers
f197077   Cox   England, London
f63499   Stubbs   England, London (?)
f66051   Jillard   England, South West, Devonshire, Plymouth
f89050   Collings   England, South West, Devonshire, Plymouth, Stoke
f27573   Mede   England, South West, North Somerset, Wraxall
yPXJ8M   Bartram   England
yWBB7X   Dickens   England
fN56479   Dickens   England
yJXUJ3   Gossett   England
f73126   Gossett   England
f60093   Hawxhurst   England
fN41476   Palmer   England
f114648   Parrish   England
f97633   Parrish   England
fN6312   Stafford   England
f69097   Stubbs   England
fN17915   Taber   England
f84172   Toone   England
fN16281   Yeomans   England
f94975   zzzUnkName   England
f151956   zzzUnkName   England
f89260   Guest   Ireland, Munster, Co. Tipperary, Cloughjordan
f80412   Simpson   Ireland, Ulster
yGGV7R   Gray   Ireland
f55998   Henry   Ireland
f31950   Hodges   Ireland
f154890   Linton   Ireland
f37755   Martin   Ireland
f51691   Paterson   Scotland, Strathclyde, Lanarkshire, Carmichael
yQ996Y   Linton   Scotland
yCU93Y   Raglan   Scotland
fN4959   Bingham   UK
f15772   Devericks   UK
fN31085   Johnson   Sweden


But does a rare occurrence mean it doesn't mutate quickly?  I thought SNPs were based off of mutation rates, and not so much on rarity of STRs; especially one STR.  Otherwise, DYS448=17 would signify another subclade within SRY2627 because of its rarity.  Or am I just interpreting this wrong?

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 03, 2012, 11:53:13 PM
One DYS490 = 10 SRY2627+ individual has R-L628+ and another DYS490 = 10 individual has R-L659+; L628+ and L659+ are private SNPs. I am SRY2627+ (DYS490 = 10, DYS425 = null, DYS525 = 6) and have not tested any SNPS downstream from SRY2627+.
Stephen

I am not sure if this is what you intended, but this information leads me to believe that there is not a universal SNP associated with DYS 490=10.

I recognize that SRY2627+ 4090=10 people are not marked by a unique SNP, at least yet.  Hoewever, 4090=10 is such a rare occurrence that I think we could consider this a reliable clade.

Out of about 5000 P312 confirmed people tested for 490, outside of SRY2627, only 3 are 490=10. There aren't that many 490=11's even. 490=12 is modal.  I just think the odds are very great that if you are SRY2767+ and 490=10 then you are probably more closely related to all of the other SRY2627+ 490=10 folks than to the SRY2627=12 folks. That makes 490=10 a clade for SRY2627.

Here are the SRY2627 490=10 guys that have Old World MDKA's in our DNA projects.  There are a couple from Spain, but there are more from France and Germany.

f116134   Schoenberg   Hungary, Szecseny (Jewish project)
fE10868   Alberti   Italy, Veneto, Vicenza, Foza
fN77509   Bergey   Switzerland
fN22590   Bürgi   Switzerland, Bern, Bern-Mittelland, Biglen
fN14866   García   (Basque project)
fN77006   Gariépy   France, Aquitaine, Landes, Montfort-en-Chalosse (Basque project)
fN42387   Vernade   France, Centre, Cher, Bourges
f108419   Luguet   France, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, Pas-de-Calais, Guînes
f62986   David dit St. Michel   France, Pays de la Loire, Loire-Atlantique, Nantes
f126548   Juillet   France, Pays de la Loire, Vendée, Loge Fougereuse
f148371   Brousse   France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, Cognac
f156899   Bouzanquet   France, Languedoc-Roussillon, Gard, St. Laurent d'Aigouze
f59578   Bruce   France
yS865H   Chauncey   France
f6151   Ford   France
fE8915   Marotte   France
f23253   Bourgeois   France
f123844   Backes   Germany, Saarland, Bliesen
f153374   Ankele   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Württemberg
f144761   Keller   Germany
f81253   Knoll   Germany
yYPXDZ   Roush   Germany
fN13160   Castro   Spain
fN51668   Homs   Spain
f72456   Rael de Aguilar   Spain, Murcia, Murcia, Lorca (on Med)
fE2318   Wangermez   Belgium, Wallonia, Hainaut, Beclers
f197077   Cox   England, London
f63499   Stubbs   England, London (?)
f66051   Jillard   England, South West, Devonshire, Plymouth
f89050   Collings   England, South West, Devonshire, Plymouth, Stoke
f27573   Mede   England, South West, North Somerset, Wraxall
yPXJ8M   Bartram   England
yWBB7X   Dickens   England
fN56479   Dickens   England
yJXUJ3   Gossett   England
f73126   Gossett   England
f60093   Hawxhurst   England
fN41476   Palmer   England
f114648   Parrish   England
f97633   Parrish   England
fN6312   Stafford   England
f69097   Stubbs   England
fN17915   Taber   England
f84172   Toone   England
fN16281   Yeomans   England
f94975   zzzUnkName   England
f151956   zzzUnkName   England
f89260   Guest   Ireland, Munster, Co. Tipperary, Cloughjordan
f80412   Simpson   Ireland, Ulster
yGGV7R   Gray   Ireland
f55998   Henry   Ireland
f31950   Hodges   Ireland
f154890   Linton   Ireland
f37755   Martin   Ireland
f51691   Paterson   Scotland, Strathclyde, Lanarkshire, Carmichael
yQ996Y   Linton   Scotland
yCU93Y   Raglan   Scotland
fN4959   Bingham   UK
f15772   Devericks   UK
fN31085   Johnson   Sweden


Mike -

My SRY2627+ genetic cousins of whom I am aware (about 30 more than the approximately half dozen that I see in your list), most of whom are in two DNA projects, one of which I administer, could be added to your list.

Stephen

Stephen,

Would you mind adding them to the list?

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 03, 2012, 11:59:54 PM

I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia.  Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.


I don't think SRY2627 is that old at all.  So the problem therein lies about where this "youngish" approx. 3,000 year old subclade originated.  Did it spawn off from L176.2 north of the Pyrenees or south of the Pyrenees? Or is there another SNP yet to be found between L176.2 and SRY2627?  I doubt the latter.  So now it's a matter of finding the oldest SRY2627 (most variant) and connecting to the youngest L176.2 (least variant) person(s).

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on June 04, 2012, 12:46:11 AM

I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia.  Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.


I don't think SRY2627 is that old at all.  So the problem therein lies about where this "youngish" approx. 3,000 year old subclade originated.  Did it spawn off from L176.2 north of the Pyrenees or south of the Pyrenees? Or is there another SNP yet to be found between L176.2 and SRY2627?  I doubt the latter.  So now it's a matter of finding the oldest SRY2627 (most variant) and connecting to the youngest L176.2 (least variant) person(s).

Arch

Z262 is between L176.2 and SRY2627, and there are probably several others.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 04, 2012, 12:52:23 AM

I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia.  Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.

I don't think SRY2627 is that old at all.  So the problem therein lies about where this "youngish" approx. 3,000 year old subclade originated.  Did it spawn off from L176.2 north of the Pyrenees or south of the Pyrenees? Or is there another SNP yet to be found between L176.2 and SRY2627?  I doubt the latter.  So now it's a matter of finding the oldest SRY2627 (most variant) and connecting to the youngest L176.2 (least variant) person(s).

Arch

Even though I sagree that SRY2627 may be about 3,000 ybp, I don't think that is that young in comparison to the great expansion of major R-L11 subclaces.

SRY2627's STR diversity is below Z196's, which is as it should be but it is not that young.  Below is the relative variance to P312 all (1.0) for SRY2627.  This on 167 67 STR haplotypes so I think the data set is pretty good.

SRY2627_____________:  Var=0.83 [Mixed 49]  (N=167)   
SRY2627_____________:  Var=0.77 [Linear 36]  (N=167)
   

Essentially, the inference is that SRY2627's age is about 80% of P312's.   M153's would be more like the range of 40% of P312's.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 04, 2012, 12:59:04 AM
My SRY2627+ genetic cousins of whom I am aware (about 30 more than the approximately half dozen that I see in your list), most of whom are in two DNA projects, one of which I administer, could be added to your list.

If they are confirmed SRY2627+ and in a public FTDNA project I will add them to the spreadsheet.

What are their kit#'s and what projects are they in?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 04, 2012, 01:08:38 AM
One DYS490 = 10 SRY2627+ individual has R-L628+ and another DYS490 = 10 individual has R-L659+; L628+ and L659+ are private SNPs. I am SRY2627+ (DYS490 = 10, DYS425 = null, DYS525 = 6) and have not tested any SNPS downstream from SRY2627+.
Stephen

I am not sure if this is what you intended, but this information leads me to believe that there is not a universal SNP associated with DYS 490=10.

I recognize that SRY2627+ 4090=10 people are not marked by a unique SNP, at least yet.  Hoewever, 4090=10 is such a rare occurrence that I think we could consider this a reliable clade.

Out of about 5000 P312 confirmed people tested for 490, outside of SRY2627, only 3 are 490=10. There aren't that many 490=11's even. 490=12 is modal.  I just think the odds are very great that if you are SRY2767+ and 490=10 then you are probably more closely related to all of the other SRY2627+ 490=10 folks than to the SRY2627=12 folks. That makes 490=10 a clade for SRY2627.
....

But does a rare occurrence mean it doesn't mutate quickly?  I thought SNPs were based off of mutation rates, and not so much on rarity of STRs; especially one STR.  Otherwise, DYS448=17 would signify another subclade within SRY2627 because of its rarity.  Or am I just interpreting this wrong?

No. A rare occurrence may or may not be old.  In this case there are enough SRY2627+ 490=10 people with enough diversity on other STRs that I would predict that the mutation from 490=12 to 490=10 is quite old.

448=17 may represent another subclade. I don't know.

Ken Nordtvedt has long been a proponent of the idea that a subclade is a group related people, whether they have an SNP that marks them or not. 

Are there another STR off-modals that combine with 448=17 for a strong STR signature under  SRY2627+ 490=10?  The more the merrier in terms of improving the probability there is an underlying subclade.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 04, 2012, 01:56:01 AM
One DYS490 = 10 SRY2627+ individual has R-L628+ and another DYS490 = 10 individual has R-L659+; L628+ and L659+ are private SNPs. I am SRY2627+ (DYS490 = 10, DYS425 = null, DYS525 = 6) and have not tested any SNPS downstream from SRY2627+.
Stephen

I am not sure if this is what you intended, but this information leads me to believe that there is not a universal SNP associated with DYS 490=10.

I recognize that SRY2627+ 4090=10 people are not marked by a unique SNP, at least yet.  Hoewever, 4090=10 is such a rare occurrence that I think we could consider this a reliable clade.

Out of about 5000 P312 confirmed people tested for 490, outside of SRY2627, only 3 are 490=10. There aren't that many 490=11's even. 490=12 is modal.  I just think the odds are very great that if you are SRY2767+ and 490=10 then you are probably more closely related to all of the other SRY2627+ 490=10 folks than to the SRY2627=12 folks. That makes 490=10 a clade for SRY2627.
....

But does a rare occurrence mean it doesn't mutate quickly?  I thought SNPs were based off of mutation rates, and not so much on rarity of STRs; especially one STR.  Otherwise, DYS448=17 would signify another subclade within SRY2627 because of its rarity.  Or am I just interpreting this wrong?

No. A rare occurrence may or may not be old.  In this case there are enough SRY2627+ 490=10 people with enough diversity on other STRs that I would predict that the mutation from 490=12 to 490=10 is quite old.

448=17 may represent another subclade. I don't know.

Ken Nordtvedt has long been a proponent of the idea that a subclade is a group related people, whether they have an SNP that marks them or not. 

Are there another STR off-modals that combine with 448=17 for a strong STR signature under  SRY2627+ 490=10?  The more the merrier in terms of improving the probability there is an underlying subclade.

There a few other STR off-modals that I've found mainly with my results.  I have noticed there are a few STRs that are the same as L165; very few other SRY2627+ people have the same results.  Also, my WTY came up with a private SNP, which might possibly have some connection to these similarities but I'm not 100% sure.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 04, 2012, 02:17:58 AM

I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia.  Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.


I don't think SRY2627 is that old at all.  So the problem therein lies about where this "youngish" approx. 3,000 year old subclade originated.  Did it spawn off from L176.2 north of the Pyrenees or south of the Pyrenees? Or is there another SNP yet to be found between L176.2 and SRY2627?  I doubt the latter.  So now it's a matter of finding the oldest SRY2627 (most variant) and connecting to the youngest L176.2 (least variant) person(s).

Arch

Z262 is between L176.2 and SRY2627, and there are probably several others.

Hmmm, interesting. Z199, Z200, Z201, Z202, Z203, Z204, Z205, Z262, Z263, Z264, Z265, Z266, Z267, Z269.  So given that Z262 is between L176.2 and SRY2627, we can further presume so are the others that are listed here?

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on June 04, 2012, 09:26:56 AM

I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia.  Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.


I don't think SRY2627 is that old at all.  So the problem therein lies about where this "youngish" approx. 3,000 year old subclade originated.  Did it spawn off from L176.2 north of the Pyrenees or south of the Pyrenees? Or is there another SNP yet to be found between L176.2 and SRY2627?  I doubt the latter.  So now it's a matter of finding the oldest SRY2627 (most variant) and connecting to the youngest L176.2 (least variant) person(s).

Arch

Z262 is between L176.2 and SRY2627, and there are probably several others.

Hmmm, interesting. Z199, Z200, Z201, Z202, Z203, Z204, Z205, Z262, Z263, Z264, Z265, Z266, Z267, Z269.  So given that Z262 is between L176.2 and SRY2627, we can further presume so are the others that are listed here?

Arch

I think the odds are that, out of the 14 you listed, 7 are above SRY2627 and 7 are below.  But my Z262+ and presumed SRY2627- proves at least Z262 is above SRY2627.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 04, 2012, 01:57:34 PM

I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia.  Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.


I don't think SRY2627 is that old at all.  So the problem therein lies about where this "youngish" approx. 3,000 year old subclade originated.  Did it spawn off from L176.2 north of the Pyrenees or south of the Pyrenees? Or is there another SNP yet to be found between L176.2 and SRY2627?  I doubt the latter.  So now it's a matter of finding the oldest SRY2627 (most variant) and connecting to the youngest L176.2 (least variant) person(s).

Arch

Z262 is between L176.2 and SRY2627, and there are probably several others.

Hmmm, interesting. Z199, Z200, Z201, Z202, Z203, Z204, Z205, Z262, Z263, Z264, Z265, Z266, Z267, Z269.  So given that Z262 is between L176.2 and SRY2627, we can further presume so are the others that are listed here?

Arch

I think the odds are that, out of the 14 you listed, 7 are above SRY2627 and 7 are below.  But my Z262+ and presumed SRY2627- proves at least Z262 is above SRY2627.

I was looking at the Y-DNA draft tree from FTDNA and noticed that none of the Zs are listed.  I wonder how long it will be before FTDNA is testing for them and will add them to their tree.  It's nice to see more SNPs, but at the same time we will really need more people to test in order to get "hits."  Nonetheless, it's nice these finds hopefully will point to geographical affinities, or possible origins, with more accuracy.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 04, 2012, 05:12:15 PM

Hmmm, interesting. Z199, Z200, Z201, Z202, Z203, Z204, Z205, Z262, Z263, Z264, Z265, Z266, Z267, Z269.  So given that Z262 is between L176.2 and SRY2627, we can further presume so are the others that are listed here?

I think the odds are that, out of the 14 you listed, 7 are above SRY2627 and 7 are below.  But my Z262+ and presumed SRY2627- proves at least Z262 is above SRY2627.

What's the status of Z262 versus L176.2 and L165.  Do we have confirmation from FTDNA and/or the 1000 HG project that Z263 is parallel to L165 under L176.2?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on June 04, 2012, 06:20:31 PM

I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia.  Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.


I don't think SRY2627 is that old at all.  So the problem therein lies about where this "youngish" approx. 3,000 year old subclade originated.  Did it spawn off from L176.2 north of the Pyrenees or south of the Pyrenees? Or is there another SNP yet to be found between L176.2 and SRY2627?  I doubt the latter.  So now it's a matter of finding the oldest SRY2627 (most variant) and connecting to the youngest L176.2 (least variant) person(s).

Arch

Z262 is between L176.2 and SRY2627, and there are probably several others.

Hmmm, interesting. Z199, Z200, Z201, Z202, Z203, Z204, Z205, Z262, Z263, Z264, Z265, Z266, Z267, Z269.  So given that Z262 is between L176.2 and SRY2627, we can further presume so are the others that are listed here?

Arch

I think the odds are that, out of the 14 you listed, 7 are above SRY2627 and 7 are below.  But my Z262+ and presumed SRY2627- proves at least Z262 is above SRY2627.

I was looking at the Y-DNA draft tree from FTDNA and noticed that none of the Zs are listed.  I wonder how long it will be before FTDNA is testing for them and will add them to their tree.  It's nice to see more SNPs, but at the same time we will really need more people to test in order to get "hits."  Nonetheless, it's nice these finds hopefully will point to geographical affinities, or possible origins, with more accuracy.

Arch

Z262 is not on the draft tree, but it is available to order.  It is the only one of the 14 that are available, though it is apparent FTDNA has done a few tests of the others.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on June 04, 2012, 06:32:37 PM

Hmmm, interesting. Z199, Z200, Z201, Z202, Z203, Z204, Z205, Z262, Z263, Z264, Z265, Z266, Z267, Z269.  So given that Z262 is between L176.2 and SRY2627, we can further presume so are the others that are listed here?

I think the odds are that, out of the 14 you listed, 7 are above SRY2627 and 7 are below.  But my Z262+ and presumed SRY2627- proves at least Z262 is above SRY2627.

What's the status of Z262 versus L176.2 and L165.  Do we have confirmation from FTDNA and/or the 1000 HG project that Z263 is parallel to L165 under L176.2?

There have been three tests reported in the SRY2627 group, one positive and two negative.  All three are in kits that are L176.2+, so that proves Z262 is below L176.2.  Kit #171839 is L147.3+/Z262-, and my kit is L147.3-/Z262+, so that proves those two are on the same level.  1000 HG, according to the year-old chart, along with my implied SRY2627-, indicates Z262 is above SRY2627, but L165 is not on that chart, so there is no indication whether L165 is below or parallel to Z262.

Interestingly, Isidro ordered Z262 and Z198 at about the same time I did, actually one batch apart, and our Z262 results came back the same day, but I came back Z198+ and he hasn't got a result yet.  That makes me wonder if he's going to come back Z198-, which would be interesting.

If kit #171839 also ordered a Z198 at the same time he ordered Z262, then his didn't come back either. 


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on June 05, 2012, 02:12:16 PM
One DYS490 = 10 SRY2627+ individual has R-L628+ and another DYS490 = 10 individual has R-L659+; L628+ and L659+ are private SNPs. I am SRY2627+ (DYS490 = 10, DYS425 = null, DYS525 = 6) and have not tested any SNPS downstream from SRY2627+.
Stephen

I am not sure if this is what you intended, but this information leads me to believe that there is not a universal SNP associated with DYS 490=10.

I recognize that SRY2627+ 4090=10 people are not marked by a unique SNP, at least yet.  Hoewever, 4090=10 is such a rare occurrence that I think we could consider this a reliable clade.

Out of about 5000 P312 confirmed people tested for 490, outside of SRY2627, only 3 are 490=10. There aren't that many 490=11's even. 490=12 is modal.  I just think the odds are very great that if you are SRY2767+ and 490=10 then you are probably more closely related to all of the other SRY2627+ 490=10 folks than to the SRY2627=12 folks. That makes 490=10 a clade for SRY2627.

Here are the SRY2627 490=10 guys that have Old World MDKA's in our DNA projects.  There are a couple from Spain, but there are more from France and Germany.

f116134   Schoenberg   Hungary, Szecseny (Jewish project)
fE10868   Alberti   Italy, Veneto, Vicenza, Foza
fN77509   Bergey   Switzerland
fN22590   Bürgi   Switzerland, Bern, Bern-Mittelland, Biglen
fN14866   García   (Basque project)
fN77006   Gariépy   France, Aquitaine, Landes, Montfort-en-Chalosse (Basque project)
fN42387   Vernade   France, Centre, Cher, Bourges
f108419   Luguet   France, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, Pas-de-Calais, Guînes
f62986   David dit St. Michel   France, Pays de la Loire, Loire-Atlantique, Nantes
f126548   Juillet   France, Pays de la Loire, Vendée, Loge Fougereuse
f148371   Brousse   France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, Cognac
f156899   Bouzanquet   France, Languedoc-Roussillon, Gard, St. Laurent d'Aigouze
f59578   Bruce   France
yS865H   Chauncey   France
f6151   Ford   France
fE8915   Marotte   France
f23253   Bourgeois   France
f123844   Backes   Germany, Saarland, Bliesen
f153374   Ankele   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Württemberg
f144761   Keller   Germany
f81253   Knoll   Germany
yYPXDZ   Roush   Germany
fN13160   Castro   Spain
fN51668   Homs   Spain
f72456   Rael de Aguilar   Spain, Murcia, Murcia, Lorca (on Med)
fE2318   Wangermez   Belgium, Wallonia, Hainaut, Beclers
f197077   Cox   England, London
f63499   Stubbs   England, London (?)
f66051   Jillard   England, South West, Devonshire, Plymouth
f89050   Collings   England, South West, Devonshire, Plymouth, Stoke
f27573   Mede   England, South West, North Somerset, Wraxall
yPXJ8M   Bartram   England
yWBB7X   Dickens   England
fN56479   Dickens   England
yJXUJ3   Gossett   England
f73126   Gossett   England
f60093   Hawxhurst   England
fN41476   Palmer   England
f114648   Parrish   England
f97633   Parrish   England
fN6312   Stafford   England
f69097   Stubbs   England
fN17915   Taber   England
f84172   Toone   England
fN16281   Yeomans   England
f94975   zzzUnkName   England
f151956   zzzUnkName   England
f89260   Guest   Ireland, Munster, Co. Tipperary, Cloughjordan
f80412   Simpson   Ireland, Ulster
yGGV7R   Gray   Ireland
f55998   Henry   Ireland
f31950   Hodges   Ireland
f154890   Linton   Ireland
f37755   Martin   Ireland
f51691   Paterson   Scotland, Strathclyde, Lanarkshire, Carmichael
yQ996Y   Linton   Scotland
yCU93Y   Raglan   Scotland
fN4959   Bingham   UK
f15772   Devericks   UK
fN31085   Johnson   Sweden


Mike -

My SRY2627+ genetic cousins of whom I am aware (about 30 more than the approximately half dozen that I see in your list), most of whom are in two DNA projects, one of which I administer, could be added to your list.

Stephen

Stephen,

Would you mind adding them to the list?

Arch

Arch -

They are in group 3 on this page: http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/parish/results?raw=1 and in lineage II of haplogroup R1b on this page: http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/hodges/results?raw=1

There are approximately three other genetic cousins who are not members of either project. Please note that some members are in both projects and we have several 67/67 matches.

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on June 05, 2012, 02:15:41 PM
My SRY2627+ genetic cousins of whom I am aware (about 30 more than the approximately half dozen that I see in your list), most of whom are in two DNA projects, one of which I administer, could be added to your list.

If they are confirmed SRY2627+ and in a public FTDNA project I will add them to the spreadsheet.

What are their kit#'s and what projects are they in?

Mike -

They are in group 3 on this page: http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/parish/results?raw=1 and in lineage II of haplogroup R1b on this page: http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/hodges/results?raw=1

There are approximately three other genetic cousins who are not members of either project. Please note that some members are in both projects and we have several 67/67 matches.

If you need additional information, please let me know.

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 05, 2012, 04:12:45 PM
My SRY2627+ genetic cousins of whom I am aware (about 30 more than the approximately half dozen that I see in your list), most of whom are in two DNA projects, one of which I administer, could be added to your list.

If they are confirmed SRY2627+ and in a public FTDNA project I will add them to the spreadsheet.

What are their kit#'s and what projects are they in?

Mike -

They are in group 3 on this page: http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/parish/results?raw=1 and in lineage II of haplogroup R1b on this page: http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/hodges/results?raw=1

There are approximately three other genetic cousins who are not members of either project. Please note that some members are in both projects and we have several 67/67 matches.

If you need additional information, please let me know.

Stephen

I haven't written the macro conversions to copy data from non FTDNA screens. The formatting is different and sometimes they are behind.  Can you get the Parish and Hodges admins to turn on their public FTDNA screens.


Here is how a project admin can do that:

Login to FTDNA's GAP 2.0 tool

go to the Project Administration pull down menu
select Public Website

on SITE CONFIGURATION tab, check mark the following:

 Member DNA (YDNA) Results
 Ancestor's (YDNA) Map
 Y-DNA SNP
 Display Options:  Member's Last Name and Most Distant Ancestor
 Public Map Display: Most Distant Known Ancestor
 Public Map Display: Kit Number

Then make sure to click on Save Settings.  The key checkboxes for this
report are "Member DNA (YDNA) Results" and "Y-DNA SNP".



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on June 05, 2012, 04:32:06 PM
My SRY2627+ genetic cousins of whom I am aware (about 30 more than the approximately half dozen that I see in your list), most of whom are in two DNA projects, one of which I administer, could be added to your list.

If they are confirmed SRY2627+ and in a public FTDNA project I will add them to the spreadsheet.

What are their kit#'s and what projects are they in?

Mike -

They are in group 3 on this page: http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/parish/results?raw=1 and in lineage II of haplogroup R1b on this page: http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/hodges/results?raw=1

There are approximately three other genetic cousins who are not members of either project. Please note that some members are in both projects and we have several 67/67 matches.

If you need additional information, please let me know.

Stephen

I haven't written the macro conversions to copy data from non FTDNA screens. The formatting is different and sometimes they are behind.  Can you get the Parish and Hodges admins to turn on their public FTDNA screens.


Here is how a project admin can do that:

Login to FTDNA's GAP 2.0 tool

go to the Project Administration pull down menu
select Public Website

on SITE CONFIGURATION tab, check mark the following:

 Member DNA (YDNA) Results
 Ancestor's (YDNA) Map
 Y-DNA SNP
 Display Options:  Member's Last Name and Most Distant Ancestor
 Public Map Display: Most Distant Known Ancestor
 Public Map Display: Kit Number

Then make sure to click on Save Settings.  The key checkboxes for this
report are "Member DNA (YDNA) Results" and "Y-DNA SNP".



Mike -

Since I administer the Parrish/Parish project, I will try to turn on the public Y-DNA screen when time permits. I will also contact one of the administrators of the Hodges project.

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on June 05, 2012, 05:25:53 PM
My SRY2627+ genetic cousins of whom I am aware (about 30 more than the approximately half dozen that I see in your list), most of whom are in two DNA projects, one of which I administer, could be added to your list.

If they are confirmed SRY2627+ and in a public FTDNA project I will add them to the spreadsheet.

What are their kit#'s and what projects are they in?

Mike -

They are in group 3 on this page: http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/parish/results?raw=1 and in lineage II of haplogroup R1b on this page: http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/hodges/results?raw=1

There are approximately three other genetic cousins who are not members of either project. Please note that some members are in both projects and we have several 67/67 matches.

If you need additional information, please let me know.

Stephen

I haven't written the macro conversions to copy data from non FTDNA screens. The formatting is different and sometimes they are behind.  Can you get the Parish and Hodges admins to turn on their public FTDNA screens.


Here is how a project admin can do that:

Login to FTDNA's GAP 2.0 tool

go to the Project Administration pull down menu
select Public Website

on SITE CONFIGURATION tab, check mark the following:

 Member DNA (YDNA) Results
 Ancestor's (YDNA) Map
 Y-DNA SNP
 Display Options:  Member's Last Name and Most Distant Ancestor
 Public Map Display: Most Distant Known Ancestor
 Public Map Display: Kit Number

Then make sure to click on Save Settings.  The key checkboxes for this
report are "Member DNA (YDNA) Results" and "Y-DNA SNP".



Mike -

Since I administer the Parrish/Parish project, I will try to turn on the public Y-DNA screen when time permits. I will also contact one of the administrators of the Hodges project.

Stephen

Mike - I have now turned on the public Y-DNA screen, which you can see by clicking on this link: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Parrish-Parish/

Stephen


Title: SRY2627's linguistic origins, Basque (non-IE) or Celtic?
Post by: Arch Y. on June 08, 2012, 12:41:40 AM
I was browsing through some journals and came across one published in 1992 and it mentions how the Aranese are more Celtic than Basque.  I thought this was quite interesting and seems to support other older papers that the Basque population is quite young.  I'm still not sure how later research reflects a much different story as Basques being Upper Paleolithic, then Mesolithic, and one paper explains a few years ago explained M-153 as Neolithic. 

I find it intriguing the word Aran allegedly is derived from the Basque word 'Haran' meaning valley, but I notice what seems to me more Celtic and possibly Germanic toponyms in the valley than Basque.  I also find little Basque influence besides one or two restaurants that specialize in Basque cuisine.

Anyway, the here's the paper I am referring to: Variability of the Rh system in a central Pyrenean population (Aran Valley). R.M. Nogues; M.P. Aluja; A. Malgosa; J. Mas (Profiled Authors: Maria Pilar Aluja París; Assumpció Malgosa Morera; J. Mas)
Gene Geography 1992;6(1-2):97-108.

This work describes the results of a survey on the Rhesus system carried out in the autochthonous population of Aran Valley, a small and rather isolated region on the Northern side of the Central Pyrenees. Also, a comparison is made with other geographically and historically related populations in order to discuss the data in terms of the historical origin of this population. The data obtained shows a good agreement between observed and expected values in Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium. The Aranese population also reveals some peculiarities concerning some haplotypes. The comparison with European and non European Mediterranean populations shows a clear genetic distance from Basque populations, and a relative proximity with presumably Celtic ones.

Arch









Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on June 09, 2012, 02:50:51 AM

Hmmm, interesting. Z199, Z200, Z201, Z202, Z203, Z204, Z205, Z262, Z263, Z264, Z265, Z266, Z267, Z269.  So given that Z262 is between L176.2 and SRY2627, we can further presume so are the others that are listed here?

I think the odds are that, out of the 14 you listed, 7 are above SRY2627 and 7 are below.  But my Z262+ and presumed SRY2627- proves at least Z262 is above SRY2627.

What's the status of Z262 versus L176.2 and L165.  Do we have confirmation from FTDNA and/or the 1000 HG project that Z263 is parallel to L165 under L176.2?

There have been three tests reported in the SRY2627 group, one positive and two negative.  All three are in kits that are L176.2+, so that proves Z262 is below L176.2.  Kit #171839 is L147.3+/Z262-, and my kit is L147.3-/Z262+, so that proves those two are on the same level.  1000 HG, according to the year-old chart, along with my implied SRY2627-, indicates Z262 is above SRY2627, but L165 is not on that chart, so there is no indication whether L165 is below or parallel to Z262.

Interestingly, Isidro ordered Z262 and Z198 at about the same time I did, actually one batch apart, and our Z262 results came back the same day, but I came back Z198+ and he hasn't got a result yet.  That makes me wonder if he's going to come back Z198-, which would be interesting.

If kit #171839 also ordered a Z198 at the same time he ordered Z262, then his didn't come back either. 

Two new Z262 tests have come in.  One kit is SRY2627+/Z262+, which along with my Z262+/presumed SRY2627- and the 1000 HG results, proves more conclusively that Z262 is above SRY2627.

Another kit is L165+/Z262-, so with the kit that is L165-/Z262+/SRY2627+ it proves that L165 and Z262 are on the same level below L176.2.

Still conspicuously absent as I write this are any new results for Z198.



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 09, 2012, 04:55:27 AM

Hmmm, interesting. Z199, Z200, Z201, Z202, Z203, Z204, Z205, Z262, Z263, Z264, Z265, Z266, Z267, Z269.  So given that Z262 is between L176.2 and SRY2627, we can further presume so are the others that are listed here?

I think the odds are that, out of the 14 you listed, 7 are above SRY2627 and 7 are below.  But my Z262+ and presumed SRY2627- proves at least Z262 is above SRY2627.

What's the status of Z262 versus L176.2 and L165.  Do we have confirmation from FTDNA and/or the 1000 HG project that Z263 is parallel to L165 under L176.2?

There have been three tests reported in the SRY2627 group, one positive and two negative.  All three are in kits that are L176.2+, so that proves Z262 is below L176.2.  Kit #171839 is L147.3+/Z262-, and my kit is L147.3-/Z262+, so that proves those two are on the same level.  1000 HG, according to the year-old chart, along with my implied SRY2627-, indicates Z262 is above SRY2627, but L165 is not on that chart, so there is no indication whether L165 is below or parallel to Z262.

Interestingly, Isidro ordered Z262 and Z198 at about the same time I did, actually one batch apart, and our Z262 results came back the same day, but I came back Z198+ and he hasn't got a result yet.  That makes me wonder if he's going to come back Z198-, which would be interesting.

If kit #171839 also ordered a Z198 at the same time he ordered Z262, then his didn't come back either. 

Two new Z262 tests have come in.  One kit is SRY2627+/Z262+, which along with my Z262+/presumed SRY2627- and the 1000 HG results, proves more conclusively that Z262 is above SRY2627.

Another kit is L165+/Z262-, so with the kit that is L165-/Z262+/SRY2627+ it proves that L165 and Z262 are on the same level below L176.2.

Still conspicuously absent as I write this are any new results for Z198.



Yes.  It sure looks like Z262 is above SRY2627.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: pliesj on June 09, 2012, 10:38:30 AM
Hi all,

I am kit 86995. I was the WTY participant in which L176.2 was first discovered in a R-P312* individual (Didier found it). I am SRY2627- and L165-.  I have not been active in this community for a couple of years.  Checking in now, I see that there may be a few additional SNPs below L176.2. Last week orders were placed for:

Z262
Z198
Z225
L628
DF17

I'll post results when the come in.  If there are any other SNPs I should consider testing for please let me know.



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 09, 2012, 07:12:16 PM
Hi all,

I am kit 86995. I was the WTY participant in which L176.2 was first discovered in a R-P312* individual (Didier found it). I am SRY2627- and L165-.  I have not been active in this community for a couple of years.  Checking in now, I see that there may be a few additional SNPs below L176.2. Last week orders were placed for:

Z262
Z198
Z225
L628
DF17

I'll post results when the come in.  If there are any other SNPs I should consider testing for please let me know.



That's good news!  Also, we certainly could use more people with P312* to test.

Arch


Title: Breakdown of all known SRY2627+ from different labs available?
Post by: Arch Y. on June 10, 2012, 03:58:56 AM
If I'm not mistaken, somebody over at DNA-Forums (R.I.P.) was able to data mine and collect all the SNP count data for R1b* subclades from various labs.  Has this door been shut? 

Also, I was really astonished to find out that I came up with a total of only 6 persons who are SRY2627+ at 23andMe. 

With FTDNA, SRY2627 numbers increased some but it doesn't look too drastic of an increase with 134 overall (including expected results) and with known results is 121. 

Finally, YSearch yields a much higher number at around 180 (if not the duplicates or erroneous entries are included) for a total of 180 persons.

It would sure be nice to get the academic findings of SRY2627+ plugged into YSearch, even if they are an average of 11-13 STRs tested for each study.

Arch


Title: Understanding GD from YSearch?
Post by: Arch Y. on June 10, 2012, 08:49:04 AM
When I GDs comparisons with the whole SRY2627+ DYS=490 Group A0, I noticed that a large percentage of us have approx. 16 GD to Alberti Donato who's ancestry is around the Asiago region (great cheese by the way). Only 33% of the 15 SRY2627 in this group who tested at 67 or greater STRs do not have a GD of 16 or less. Ankele shows a GD of 9 with Alberti, apparently makes sense they are in relative proximity to each other. I'm wondering if my branch of SRY2627 orginates from around Northern Italy.

Arch


Title: Re: Understanding GD from YSearch?
Post by: Mark Jost on June 10, 2012, 11:51:29 AM
...

I'm wondering if my branch of SRY2627 orginates from around Northern Italy.

Arch

I might agree seeing this map (also posted in another thread)

http://iberianroots.com/Images/spain%20R-SRY2627%20percent.png

MJost


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 10, 2012, 12:26:35 PM
In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

My suggestion has nothing to do with the religious question, apart from the fact that a religious issue caused many of those guys to leave ancestral homes in an interesting (and now relatively untested) central to SW part of what is now called France -- especially around the port of La Rochelle.  The SNPs of anthropological interest happened earlier than Jesus, let alone earlier than the Protestant Reformation or the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

I only suggest that the Huguenot project might be one place, probably of several places, to look for testable candidates.  That is, people with male-line ancestry from that area with visible long haplotypes, who clearly don't mind being tested, and aren't troubled by the laws, politicians, or journalists of France.  As I said, that's not a random sample; but in several other respects it might be better than a ten or twelve marker academic sample in which all the "random" candidates are from Toulouse, etc.

It would obviously produce a different sort of information -- not the present day percent concentration of SNP X in department Y, but perhaps more akin to aDNA, not all that ancient but tested to a level higher than aDNA usually gets tested.  And with confirmation that the SNP in question, with a known place of origin about 325 years ago, survives at present.

When I plotted out SRY2627+ findings in France, the highest percentages clustered around the La Rochelle-Poitou Charentes-Loire Atlantique region. A few also around the Pyrenees-Atlantique region surfaced up as well. Commercially it seems that most SRY2627+ is primarily found on the Atlantic French coastal regions and La Rochelle is the local area with the highest numbers. This makes the possibility of explaining why SRY2627+ is at 13% on El Hierro Island (even though Mallorca could be the source of some too). The Acadians of Nova Scotia mostly trace their lineages to the La Rochelle region, as well many Quebecois. I'm sure the same would have held true for colonies suchs as Port Royale in Charleston, S.C. and the one in Jacksonville, FL (Fort Caroline) had not the Spaniards killed off most of the inhabitants. Many of these early late 16th C. to early 17th C. settlers left the port of La Rochelle. The only problem is finding the New World links of SRY2627 in places like the Acadie region in Nova Scotia and in the Cajuns of Louisiana.

Arch

I am the only person of Acadian/Cajun origin that has tested as SRY2627.  Most Acadians are L21.  I do strongly suspect that SRY2627 is centered in the Pyrenees region of both France and Spain, and that it made its way up the coast of France and to Britain from there.

Within the "first" cluster of SRY2627 and DYS490=10, my closest GDs seem to point away from the more northern SRY2627/DYS490=10 people as they average out around the 29 GD mark. Using Julliet as a baseline since his is the closest within the specific cluster, I notice that his GDs gravitate towards the more southerly French  SRY2627 and two presumed Spanish ancestry of Garcia and Silva-Hernandez.

The one person that 15 out of 18 people come closest to in GD is Alberti from near Asiago, Italy. Average GD to Alberti for all DYS490=10 group is 16 GD with Ankele at 9 GD as the closet member. Ankele also has quite a few people that are close GDs to him. Yours and Maloy's is around 14 GD at 67 markers to Ankele. At 70 markers, Tune is around 19 GD and I'm at 22 GD. So I'm guessing Tune's ancestry is more northwestern of Ankele where as mine is more western moving towards Julliet.

I thinking that I'm more northerly or southern of Julliet but only slightly within the Poitou or Vendee region. With members who are near the Loire R. I start to move away in GDs and only when I start approaching southern France and Spain that my GD approaches the higher numbers again (with Garcia kind of being the closest southern GD at 27).  Ankele and Alberti really throw me off though, even if Marotte seems to push me further west of Julliet.  I'm also closer to Marotte at 25 GD than I am with yours at 26 GD.  1 GD is not too far off, I would guess it pushes me a tad north of La Rochelle.

Taking out Ankele and Alberti since they are identified in a different cluster of DYS490=10,  I would presume my best guesstimate my ancestry in the subclade is south of the Loire R., north of the Garonne R. With Alberti and Ankele factored in, my guess is that I start going east towards the French and Italian Alps. How far I really don't know, but Julliet is closer to both (particularly Alberti by only 1 GD) than I am. BTW, Julliet and I share some rare STRs, in particular DYS448=10; so that's why I used him as a baseline.

I hope all that made sense.

Arch


Title: Re: Understanding GD from YSearch?
Post by: Arch Y. on June 10, 2012, 12:36:13 PM
...

I'm wondering if my branch of SRY2627 orginates from around Northern Italy.

Arch

I might agree seeing this map (also posted in another thread)

http://iberianroots.com/Images/spain%20R-SRY2627%20percent.png

MJost

If I factor in Ankele and Alberti in my GD calculations it looks like many of us with DYS490=10 move quite a ways east away from the Atlantic French region of Poitou-Charentes, Vendee, Loire Atlantique region right towards the Italian Alps.  I think Marotte is the only one in France (from the interior) that gets closest to Ankele in southern Germany at 12 GD.  However, even the more northerly SRY2627 such as Luguet (near Calais) pushes slightly closer by 1 GD to Alberti over Ankele. The other northerly SRY2627 person Wangermez (Belgium) is equal GDs at 24 to both Ankele and Alberti.  Everybody I have selected have tested with a min. of 67 markers.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 10, 2012, 12:50:35 PM
Just doing a GD comparison of presumably Spanish descent SRY2627 at 67 markers, most score at 26 GD and highest is 30 GD in the Azores (presuming Portugese descent).  I also threw in a Polish SRY2627 member just for gee whiz geographical distances. We are at 36 GD at a much higher resolution of 95 markers being compared.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 10, 2012, 01:03:59 PM

Hmmm, interesting. Z199, Z200, Z201, Z202, Z203, Z204, Z205, Z262, Z263, Z264, Z265, Z266, Z267, Z269.  So given that Z262 is between L176.2 and SRY2627, we can further presume so are the others that are listed here?

I think the odds are that, out of the 14 you listed, 7 are above SRY2627 and 7 are below.  But my Z262+ and presumed SRY2627- proves at least Z262 is above SRY2627.

What's the status of Z262 versus L176.2 and L165.  Do we have confirmation from FTDNA and/or the 1000 HG project that Z263 is parallel to L165 under L176.2?

There have been three tests reported in the SRY2627 group, one positive and two negative.  All three are in kits that are L176.2+, so that proves Z262 is below L176.2.  Kit #171839 is L147.3+/Z262-, and my kit is L147.3-/Z262+, so that proves those two are on the same level.  1000 HG, according to the year-old chart, along with my implied SRY2627-, indicates Z262 is above SRY2627, but L165 is not on that chart, so there is no indication whether L165 is below or parallel to Z262.

Interestingly, Isidro ordered Z262 and Z198 at about the same time I did, actually one batch apart, and our Z262 results came back the same day, but I came back Z198+ and he hasn't got a result yet.  That makes me wonder if he's going to come back Z198-, which would be interesting.

If kit #171839 also ordered a Z198 at the same time he ordered Z262, then his didn't come back either. 

Two new Z262 tests have come in.  One kit is SRY2627+/Z262+, which along with my Z262+/presumed SRY2627- and the 1000 HG results, proves more conclusively that Z262 is above SRY2627.

Another kit is L165+/Z262-, so with the kit that is L165-/Z262+/SRY2627+ it proves that L165 and Z262 are on the same level below L176.2.

Still conspicuously absent as I write this are any new results for Z198.



Did you have any testing done at 23andMe? If so, what is your Northern European percentage versus Southern European percentage for Global Similarity?

I though it was interesting that Isidrio with ancestry from Valencia has a slightly higher Northern European percentage than me, but clearly he has a higher Southern European percentage.

My only guess is that SRY2627 origins (at least for the DYS490=10 cluster) is near the Italian Alps. This is also considering that approximately some 70% of SRY2627+ with DYS490=10 have some really close GDs to Alberti and the other 30% would probably fall within a region between Ankele and Alberti.

Given the Pyrenean studies and the strong affinities of SRY2627 around the Occitan/Gascon and Catalan speaking regions. I am starting to think the Italian Alps or perhaps around the Occitan Valleys are good candidates for my "cluster" based on the Global Similarities and GD assessments.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on June 10, 2012, 02:24:02 PM

Did you have any testing done at 23andMe? If so, what is your Northern European percentage versus Southern European percentage for Global Similarity?

...

Arch

I don't have any kits from this group at 23andme.  This should be more interesting when we get a more clearly defined group of Z262+ results.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 10, 2012, 02:52:30 PM

Did you have any testing done at 23andMe? If so, what is your Northern European percentage versus Southern European percentage for Global Similarity?

...

Arch

I don't have any kits from this group at 23andme.  This should be more interesting when we get a more clearly defined group of Z262+ results.

I agree.  With all the new Z findings, it will certainly help narrow down things.  I definitely would like to see how it unfolds in comparison to what I just posted about genetic distances calculations for my cluster.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on June 10, 2012, 03:57:53 PM
Just for the sake of comparison,  here are my closest Gd's at 67 markers.. For those of you who don't know, I am a 490=12 SRY2627, which seems to be a rarity in these forum enviroments.

Gd of 13  Fourroux, Vic, France (Vichy?)
Gd of 14  Kemp, German?
Gd of 14  Hansen, Denmark
Gd of 14  Rosales, Banos de Rio Tobia, La Rioja, Logrono, Spain
Gd of 14  Blankenship, (English?)
Gd of 14  Spence, Belfast, Ireland
Gd of 15  Hefter, Renchen, Rust, Germany
Gd of 15  Gilliland, Scotland
Gd of 15  Dossey, (German? French?)
Gd of 15  Inacio, Portugal
Gd of 15  Grouazel Krauss, Brittany, France
Gd of 15  Cantrell, Wales

A Gd of 30 at 67 markers is my highest gd and this is with Wangermez out of Beclers, Belgium. 


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mark Jost on June 10, 2012, 04:15:55 PM
FYI

Using 25 years per generation, the TRMCA at GD15 would be about 1,612 yrs at new MarkoH mutation rates.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on June 10, 2012, 04:25:36 PM
FYI

Using 25 years per generation, the TRMCA at GD15 would be about 1,612 yrs at new MarkoH mutation rates.

Thanks for the info!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 10, 2012, 05:24:59 PM
Just for the sake of comparison,  here are my closest Gd's at 67 markers.. For those of you who don't know, I am a 490=12 SRY2627, which seems to be a rarity in these forum enviroments.

Gd of 13  Fourroux, Vic, France (Vichy?)
Gd of 14  Kemp, German?
Gd of 14  Hansen, Denmark
Gd of 14  Rosales, Banos de Rio Tobia, La Rioja, Logrono, Spain
Gd of 14  Blankenship, (English?)
Gd of 14  Spence, Belfast, Ireland
Gd of 15  Hefter, Renchen, Rust, Germany
Gd of 15  Gilliland, Scotland
Gd of 15  Dossey, (German? French?)
Gd of 15  Inacio, Portugal
Gd of 15  Grouazel Krauss, Brittany, France
Gd of 15  Cantrell, Wales

A Gd of 30 at 67 markers is my highest gd and this is with Wangermez out of Beclers, Belgium.  

How many markers are they compared against?  It's interesting that your closest GD per this table is in southern France.  The word Vic has nothing to do with Vichy, matter of fact its probably Aquitaini or Iberian as Vic is in Catalonia is well known for its delicious Iberica Jamon.  Oops, never mind I just re-read the post.  Pretty amazing that your GDs are at around 14 and 15.  Wangermez shows the highest GD out of most DYS490=10 group. When I take Alberti and Ankele out of the comparison, my closest GD is at 67 markers is Julliet at 21 GD.  Tune is my closest GD at a higher resolution at 70 plus STRs compared.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on June 10, 2012, 05:37:54 PM
Just for the sake of comparison,  here are my closest Gd's at 67 markers.. For those of you who don't know, I am a 490=12 SRY2627, which seems to be a rarity in these forum enviroments.

Gd of 13  Fourroux, Vic, France (Vichy?)
Gd of 14  Kemp, German?
Gd of 14  Hansen, Denmark
Gd of 14  Rosales, Banos de Rio Tobia, La Rioja, Logrono, Spain
Gd of 14  Blankenship, (English?)
Gd of 14  Spence, Belfast, Ireland
Gd of 15  Hefter, Renchen, Rust, Germany
Gd of 15  Gilliland, Scotland
Gd of 15  Dossey, (German? French?)
Gd of 15  Inacio, Portugal
Gd of 15  Grouazel Krauss, Brittany, France
Gd of 15  Cantrell, Wales

A Gd of 30 at 67 markers is my highest gd and this is with Wangermez out of Beclers, Belgium.  

How many markers are they compared against?  It's interesting that your closest GD per this table is in southern France.  The word Vic has nothing to do with Vichy, matter of fact its probably Aquitaini or Iberian as Vic is in Catalonia is well known for its delicious Iberica Jamon.  Oops, never mind I just re-read the post.  Pretty amazing that your GDs are at around 14 and 15.  Wangermez shows the highest GD out of most DYS490=10 group. When I take Alberti and Ankele out of the comparison, my closest GD is at 67 markers is Julliet at 21 GD.  Tune is my closest GD at a higher resolution at 70 plus STRs compared.

Arch


Vic=Vic-en-Bigorre (Hautes-Pyrenees France)


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 10, 2012, 05:51:21 PM
Just for the sake of comparison,  here are my closest Gd's at 67 markers.. For those of you who don't know, I am a 490=12 SRY2627, which seems to be a rarity in these forum enviroments.

Gd of 13  Fourroux, Vic, France (Vichy?)
Gd of 14  Kemp, German?
Gd of 14  Hansen, Denmark
Gd of 14  Rosales, Banos de Rio Tobia, La Rioja, Logrono, Spain
Gd of 14  Blankenship, (English?)
Gd of 14  Spence, Belfast, Ireland
Gd of 15  Hefter, Renchen, Rust, Germany
Gd of 15  Gilliland, Scotland
Gd of 15  Dossey, (German? French?)
Gd of 15  Inacio, Portugal
Gd of 15  Grouazel Krauss, Brittany, France
Gd of 15  Cantrell, Wales

A Gd of 30 at 67 markers is my highest gd and this is with Wangermez out of Beclers, Belgium.  

How many markers are they compared against?  It's interesting that your closest GD per this table is in southern France.  The word Vic has nothing to do with Vichy, matter of fact its probably Aquitaini or Iberian as Vic is in Catalonia is well known for its delicious Iberica Jamon.  Oops, never mind I just re-read the post.  Pretty amazing that your GDs are at around 14 and 15.  Wangermez shows the highest GD out of most DYS490=10 group. When I take Alberti and Ankele out of the comparison, my closest GD is at 67 markers is Julliet at 21 GD.  Tune is my closest GD at a higher resolution at 70 plus STRs compared.

Arch


Vic=Vic-en-Bigorre (Hautes-Pyrenees France)

It's amazing how many SRY2627 seem to have their closest GDs so far south, at least within the DYS490=10 group. I do know that DYS490=10 is found south of the Pyrenees, mainly along the southeastern Iberian coastline. However, it seems like DYS490=12 that has the largest percentages south of the Pyrenees.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on June 10, 2012, 06:12:58 PM
Here's the next set at a Gd of 16 to 17

Gd of 16  Casey, Ireland
Gd of 17  Dunbar, Scotland
Gd of 17  Boyd, England
Gd of 17  Robert, La Rochelle, France
Gd of 17  Corbett, French?
Gd of 17  Lancaster, English?
Gd of 17  Rose, Azores

Its kind of hard to say where my line originated.. It seems awfully scattered. I wouldn't give the Gd of 13 a precedence over the gds of 14 to 15. I would consider their age and distance to essentially be the same. I'm amazed at how scattered my cluster is.. I'd say a French origin that quickly spread in all directions.. I'd say my line was amongst the first travelling to the Isles. A very Atlantic feel to my group.

*Corbett seems to be Scottish of French-Norman derivation.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 10, 2012, 07:05:26 PM
Here's the next set at a Gd of 16 to 17

Gd of 16  Casey, Ireland
Gd of 17  Dunbar, Scotland
Gd of 17  Boyd, England
Gd of 17  Robert, La Rochelle, France
Gd of 17  Corbett, French?
Gd of 17  Lancaster, English?
Gd of 17  Rose, Azores

Its kind of hard to say where my line originated.. It seems awfully scattered. I wouldn't give the Gd of 13 a precedence over the gds of 14 to 15. I would consider their age and distance to essentially be the same. I'm amazed at how scattered my cluster is.. I'd say a French origin that quickly spread in all directions.. I'd say my line was amongst the first travelling to the Isles. A very Atlantic feel to my group.

*Corbett seems to be Scottish of French-Norman derivation.

The problem is SRY2627 is all over the place, but the nice thing is that it appears to sort of cluster in certain areas.  A GD of 13 versus 14 means a closer genetic connection. It may not seem like a lot depending on the rate used but no matter which way its sliced, it's still closer.  However, it should take more than one person to make any sense of it geographically.  Take all the persons who have a GD of 13 and 14, see if they concentrate in any one area and then compare their GDs with each other to see what you get. DYS490=10 definitely clusters around the Atlantic French coastal region, but 70% of everybody in the A0 cluster has a close GD to Alberti and Ankele, obviously this would push the origins of this cluster to the east. I'm taking a guess as far to the French or Italian Alps.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mark Jost on June 10, 2012, 08:46:50 PM
One thing you may do is pull your geographically close haplotypes and run a Ken's Gen111t (removing the 68to111 marker colums) against all SRY2627 and see what age you see since MikeW has the Z196/SRY2627 coalescence age of 900BC with a Sigma 1 of 900BC to 1200BC.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 11, 2012, 10:02:25 PM
One thing you may do is pull your geographically close haplotypes and run a Ken's Gen111t (removing the 68to111 marker colums) against all SRY2627 and see what age you see since MikeW has the Z196/SRY2627 coalescence age of 900BC with a Sigma 1 of 900BC to 1200BC.

Approx. 1350 BCE for SRY2627.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 12, 2012, 01:35:21 AM
I'm becoming more and more convinced that SRY2627 emerged from somewhere in Northern Italy based on the comparison of GDs.  Most SRY2627 outside of Italy and within Western Europe appear to have a close GD to the Italian SRY267 folks. 

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on June 12, 2012, 01:38:30 AM
Another L176.2 kit has new results, Z198+ and Z262-.  Again, this makes Isidro's continued lack of a Z198 result look conspicuous.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on June 12, 2012, 08:31:15 AM
Another L176.2 kit has new results, Z198+ and Z262-.  Again, this makes Isidro's continued lack of a Z198 result look conspicuous.

I am still waiting for results on Z198.I don't know what it will mean to me either way...
I haven't been able to understand where it will seat. I wonder what is it's relation with L165 if there is any.

Will post result right away, it is an old Genographic spit so maybe is time for fresh samples.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on June 12, 2012, 10:32:49 AM
I'm becoming more and more convinced that SRY2627 emerged from somewhere in Northern Italy based on the comparison of GDs.  Most SRY2627 outside of Italy and within Western Europe appear to have a close GD to the Italian SRY267 folks. 

Arch

Sorry but I don't think that one Italian result (Alberti) is enough to determine the origin of the entire subclade.  For that matter, Alberti has earlier roots in Bavaria not Italy.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on June 12, 2012, 10:53:45 AM
Another L176.2 kit has new results, Z198+ and Z262-.  Again, this makes Isidro's continued lack of a Z198 result look conspicuous.

I am still waiting for results on Z198.I don't know what it will mean to me either way...
I haven't been able to understand where it will seat. I wonder what is it's relation with L165 if there is any.

Will post result right away, it is an old Genographic spit so maybe is time for fresh samples.

Kit#170048 with Z198+/L165+ proves L165 is below Z198.

I'm guessing you're Z198-, which would prove that L176.2 is above Z198, and that your DNA split off earlier from the path to SRY2627 than some of the other kits. 

I'm also wondering if kit#171839 which is Z262- also ordered Z198 the same time you and I did, and also does not have a result.  He is L147.3+, which in that scenario would mean you might also be positive for L147.3. 

That's just a guess, which I'm waiting to be proven or disproven.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on June 12, 2012, 06:55:32 PM
Another L176.2 kit has new results, Z198+ and Z262-.  Again, this makes Isidro's continued lack of a Z198 result look conspicuous.

I am still waiting for results on Z198.I don't know what it will mean to me either way...
I haven't been able to understand where it will seat. I wonder what is it's relation with L165 if there is any.

Will post result right away, it is an old Genographic spit so maybe is time for fresh samples.

Kit#170048 with Z198+/L165+ proves L165 is below Z198.

I'm guessing you're Z198-, which would prove that L176.2 is above Z198, and that your DNA split off earlier from the path to SRY2627 than some of the other kits. 

I'm also wondering if kit#171839 which is Z262- also ordered Z198 the same time you and I did, and also does not have a result.  He is L147.3+, which in that scenario would mean you might also be positive for L147.3. 

That's just a guess, which I'm waiting to be proven or disproven


Thanks for taking the time to explain what you know about Z198.

Let's see if I got it:
 Z262 sits between L176.2 and SRY2627
Z198 position is unknown but all points that is sitting between L176.2 and L165.

There is a chance I might be Z198+, but that chance is weak I am basing it solely on my 37 STR's GD.Of all 3 groups:L176.2, SRY2627 and L165 my GD is quite closer to L165.

I can't wait to get the results. L147.3 might be my next test, I just want Z198 cleared either way.



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on June 12, 2012, 08:10:00 PM
Another L176.2 kit has new results, Z198+ and Z262-.  Again, this makes Isidro's continued lack of a Z198 result look conspicuous.

I am still waiting for results on Z198.I don't know what it will mean to me either way...
I haven't been able to understand where it will seat. I wonder what is it's relation with L165 if there is any.

Will post result right away, it is an old Genographic spit so maybe is time for fresh samples.

Kit#170048 with Z198+/L165+ proves L165 is below Z198.

I'm guessing you're Z198-, which would prove that L176.2 is above Z198, and that your DNA split off earlier from the path to SRY2627 than some of the other kits. 

I'm also wondering if kit#171839 which is Z262- also ordered Z198 the same time you and I did, and also does not have a result.  He is L147.3+, which in that scenario would mean you might also be positive for L147.3. 

That's just a guess, which I'm waiting to be proven or disproven


Thanks for taking the time to explain what you know about Z198.

Let's see if I got it:
 Z262 sits between L176.2 and SRY2627
Z198 position is unknown but all points that is sitting between L176.2 and L165.

There is a chance I might be Z198+, but that chance is weak I am basing it solely on my 37 STR's GD.Of all 3 groups:L176.2, SRY2627 and L165 my GD is quite closer to L165.

I can't wait to get the results. L147.3 might be my next test, I just want Z198 cleared either way.


I'm not an expert in STRs, but if yours are closer to L165, then you should have an excellent chance of being Z198+.  But then why hasn't the result come back yet?

All the evidence so far is that Z198 is in exactly the same position on the tree as L176.2, which is why it would be interesting if your test came back negative. 


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 12, 2012, 10:21:24 PM
I'm becoming more and more convinced that SRY2627 emerged from somewhere in Northern Italy based on the comparison of GDs.  Most SRY2627 outside of Italy and within Western Europe appear to have a close GD to the Italian SRY267 folks. 

Arch

Sorry but I don't think that one Italian result (Alberti) is enough to determine the origin of the entire subclade.  For that matter, Alberti has earlier roots in Bavaria not Italy.

My understanding is that the region from where he is from is/was called Baveria since many Bavarians did arrive there; most were involved in the timber industry from my understanding.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on June 13, 2012, 01:03:22 AM
It is kind of strange that Alberti has such a close connection with so many SRY2627 guys.. Even though he is a DYS490=10 guy, I'm still fairly close with a Gd of 17 to him.

Maybe he's missing link for the 490 split?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 13, 2012, 01:41:57 AM
It is kind of strange that Alberti has such a close connection with so many SRY2627 guys.. Even though he is a DYS490=10 guy, I'm still fairly close with a Gd of 17 to him.

Maybe he's missing link for the 490 split?

That is strange!  Your GD is basically the same as mine then and you're in the other group!  If Alberti is not the missing link, then he must be at least a few links down the chain from it.  But I was really hoping to be the missing link :-(

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627 Hotspots
Post by: Arch Y. on June 14, 2012, 03:12:51 AM
Assuming the numbers are correct in the Pyrenean region of Catalonia, Haute Garonne, Bearn, northern Aragon, it doesn't seem like SRY2627 would be a newcomer to such a vast area and yet being such a small subclade.  

It's really perplexing because most of where SRY2627 is found is in mountainous regions of continental Europe and mainly from the Pyrenees.  The geographical barriers are much greater across this region rather than having rapid access by sea lanes.  I'm a firm believer that the oceans or seas unite people, while land and rivers divide them.

It's not like the hotspot of Val d'Aran at 48% is that far away from any of the areas with percentages that average around 18-20%.  I would think this percentage would be phenomenal for any large subclade, but for a small one it should be "amazing" and for 48% near those "amazing" numbers it should be "Eureka!"

I guess the other part I find puzzling is how such a hot spot (Val d'Aran) smack dab in the midst of other high frequency areas could end up with such a low diversity. I understand it's remote, but not really that remote.  I would find areas such as Val d'Benasque, Valle de Cardos, and other regions in the Catalan and Aragonese Pyrenees even more remote but the SRY2627 numbers consistently yield some consistently high percentages study after study.

The high percentages in Bearn I thought were unique on the basis that Bearnese is a Gascon dialect that is still surviving, just like Aranese is.  What are the odds that SRY2627 is mostly Occitan/Gascon, as well Catalan? Catalan is more closely related to Occitan than it is to Spanish.  Why is SRY2627 primarily found in the Catalan, Occitan and Gascon speaking regions?  Would founder effect really affect such a large area from a small subclade?

Arch



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on June 15, 2012, 03:32:39 PM
Since Mike has created a new DF27 account at Ysearch, I figured I'd give it a go.. I'm at a Gd of 11 at 67 markers, the account has 96 markers total. Anyone else compared themselves?


Title: Re: SRY2627 Hotspots
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on June 15, 2012, 07:14:27 PM
Assuming the numbers are correct in the Pyrenean region of Catalonia, Haute Garonne, Bearn, northern Aragon, it doesn't seem like SRY2627 would be a newcomer to such a vast area and yet being such a small subclade.  

It's really perplexing because most of where SRY2627 is found is in mountainous regions of continental Europe and mainly from the Pyrenees.  The geographical barriers are much greater across this region rather than having rapid access by sea lanes.  I'm a firm believer that the oceans or seas unite people, while land and rivers divide them.

It's not like the hotspot of Val d'Aran at 48% is that far away from any of the areas with percentages that average around 18-20%.  I would think this percentage would be phenomenal for any large subclade, but for a small one it should be "amazing" and for 48% near those "amazing" numbers it should be "Eureka!"

I guess the other part I find puzzling is how such a hot spot (Val d'Aran) smack dab in the midst of other high frequency areas could end up with such a low diversity. I understand it's remote, but not really that remote.  I would find areas such as Val d'Benasque, Valle de Cardos, and other regions in the Catalan and Aragonese Pyrenees even more remote but the SRY2627 numbers consistently yield some consistently high percentages study after study.

The high percentages in Bearn I thought were unique on the basis that Bearnese is a Gascon dialect that is still surviving, just like Aranese is.  What are the odds that SRY2627 is mostly Occitan/Gascon, as well Catalan? Catalan is more closely related to Occitan than it is to Spanish.  Why is SRY2627 primarily found in the Catalan, Occitan and Gascon speaking regions?  Would founder effect really affect such a large area from a small subclade?

Arch



The high frequency and low variance in the Val d'Aran is likely the effect of one male's descendants achieving dominance in the region.  This would not be unusual especially in a sparsely populated area with a low influx of new residents.

I do think that there is merit to the possible link between SRY2627 and Occitan dialects though!


Title: Re: SRY2627 Hotspots
Post by: Arch Y. on June 17, 2012, 10:06:13 PM
Assuming the numbers are correct in the Pyrenean region of Catalonia, Haute Garonne, Bearn, northern Aragon, it doesn't seem like SRY2627 would be a newcomer to such a vast area and yet being such a small subclade.  

It's really perplexing because most of where SRY2627 is found is in mountainous regions of continental Europe and mainly from the Pyrenees.  The geographical barriers are much greater across this region rather than having rapid access by sea lanes.  I'm a firm believer that the oceans or seas unite people, while land and rivers divide them.

It's not like the hotspot of Val d'Aran at 48% is that far away from any of the areas with percentages that average around 18-20%.  I would think this percentage would be phenomenal for any large subclade, but for a small one it should be "amazing" and for 48% near those "amazing" numbers it should be "Eureka!"

I guess the other part I find puzzling is how such a hot spot (Val d'Aran) smack dab in the midst of other high frequency areas could end up with such a low diversity. I understand it's remote, but not really that remote.  I would find areas such as Val d'Benasque, Valle de Cardos, and other regions in the Catalan and Aragonese Pyrenees even more remote but the SRY2627 numbers consistently yield some consistently high percentages study after study.

The high percentages in Bearn I thought were unique on the basis that Bearnese is a Gascon dialect that is still surviving, just like Aranese is.  What are the odds that SRY2627 is mostly Occitan/Gascon, as well Catalan? Catalan is more closely related to Occitan than it is to Spanish.  Why is SRY2627 primarily found in the Catalan, Occitan and Gascon speaking regions?  Would founder effect really affect such a large area from a small subclade?

Arch



The high frequency and low variance in the Val d'Aran is likely the effect of one male's descendants achieving dominance in the region.  This would not be unusual especially in a sparsely populated area with a low influx of new residents.

I do think that there is merit to the possible link between SRY2627 and Occitan dialects though!

Val d'Aran's population has shifted between highs and lows that I can account for back to the early 1600s. Matter of fact, its population a few thousand souls higher around the early 1940s than it is today due to the changing economy. Being such a strategic valley going as far back to Pompey around 80 BCE, the valley must have seen a surge in Roman and Celtiberian populations during the Sertorian Wars.

However, the single dominating male must be somebody pretty important and extremely fertile because not only did he have a lot of offspring in Val d'Aran, but pretty much the rest of the Central to Eastern Pyrenees. What a stud! In all seriousness, a person of modest means does not get to produce a lot of offspring within such a short period of time. Otherwise, who is gonna feed 'em? SRY2627 is not that old and the frequencies for this subclade in my opinion are alarmingly large around the Central and Eastern Pyrenees.

When I look at R-M222 and its high frequency in Northern Ireland, its percentages were just as high as SRY2627's for the Girona region. It seems like everybody without a doubt in their mind touted R-M222 as the putative Northern Irish marker. However, SRY2627 does not receive that kind of treatment in this forum, only in the research journals. It's really hard to appreciate if the amateur geneticist is correct because there's nothing written in an organized paper showing a thesis and conclusion, as well no peer review. All we get is just a bunch of sniping back and forth. One person's opinion against another, but it would be nice to have a paper so that the rest of academia can have visibility of the claims.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 17, 2012, 10:12:56 PM
Since Mike has created a new DF27 account at Ysearch, I figured I'd give it a go.. I'm at a Gd of 11 at 67 markers, the account has 96 markers total. Anyone else compared themselves?

No, I haven't tried. Will give it a shot!

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 18, 2012, 09:17:37 AM
Another L176.2 kit has new results, Z198+ and Z262-.  Again, this makes Isidro's continued lack of a Z198 result look conspicuous.

I am still waiting for results on Z198.I don't know what it will mean to me either way...
I haven't been able to understand where it will seat. I wonder what is it's relation with L165 if there is any.

Will post result right away, it is an old Genographic spit so maybe is time for fresh samples.

Kit#170048 with Z198+/L165+ proves L165 is below Z198.

I'm guessing you're Z198-, which would prove that L176.2 is above Z198, and that your DNA split off earlier from the path to SRY2627 than some of the other kits.  

I'm also wondering if kit#171839 which is Z262- also ordered Z198 the same time you and I did, and also does not have a result.  He is L147.3+, which in that scenario would mean you might also be positive for L147.3.  

That's just a guess, which I'm waiting to be proven or disproven


Thanks for taking the time to explain what you know about Z198.

Let's see if I got it:
 Z262 sits between L176.2 and SRY2627
Z198 position is unknown but all points that is sitting between L176.2 and L165.

There is a chance I might be Z198+, but that chance is weak I am basing it solely on my 37 STR's GD.Of all 3 groups:L176.2, SRY2627 and L165 my GD is quite closer to L165.

I can't wait to get the results. L147.3 might be my next test, I just want Z198 cleared either way.


I'm not an expert in STRs, but if yours are closer to L165, then you should have an excellent chance of being Z198+.  But then why hasn't the result come back yet?

All the evidence so far is that Z198 is in exactly the same position on the tree as L176.2, which is why it would be interesting if your test came back negative.  

Do we have more SNP tests pending for L176.2+ SRY2627-  and SRY2627+ people?

I think that all L176.2+ SRY2627- people should test for markers parallel to or upstream of SRY2627.  This would include L165, Z262, Z198 and L147.3.

I think that all SRY2627+ people should test for potential downstream SNPs of L276, L628 and L629.

Do I have the positioning right?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on June 18, 2012, 12:02:00 PM

Do we have more SNP tests pending for L176.2+ SRY2627-  and SRY2627+ people?

I think that all L176.2+ SRY2627- people should test for markers parallel to or upstream of SRY2627.  This would include L165, Z262, Z198 and L147.3.

I think that all SRY2627+ people should test for potential downstream SNPs of L276, L628 and L629.

Do I have the positioning right?

I think this is where we're at:

If Z198 is below L176.2, then you've got one of these two situations:


Z196

Z196/Z274

Z196/L176

Z196/L176/L147.3   <--- This case is true if a L147.3+ kit comes back Z198-
 (NOPE, +)
Z196/L176/Z198

Z196/L176/Z198/Z262

Z196/L176/Z198/Z262/SRY

Z196/L176/Z198/L165

// UPDATE:  The above case is now ruled out, so we're left with the following two cases.


Z196

Z196/Z274

Z196/L176

Z196/L176/Z198

Z196/L176/Z198/L147.3

Z196/L176/Z198/Z262

Z196/L176/Z198/Z262/SRY

Z196/L176/Z198/L165

If Z198 is above L176.2, then you've got this situation, and people who are Z196+/Z274-/L176.2- should test for Z198


Z196

Z196/Z274

Z196/Z198

Z196/Z198/L176

Z196/Z198/L176/L147.3

Z196/Z198/L176/Z262

Z196/Z198/L176/Z262/SRY

Z196/Z198/L176/L165


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on June 18, 2012, 01:29:35 PM
I am still waiting for Z198 results, if on time I should know by 6/26.

I made a GD with Mikeww's DF27 (53ZBP). I am at 13 GD based on 37 markers.

My GD with all L176.2, I get a GD of 15 with 1 Spaniard, 2 Irish and 1  Portuguese.

My GD with SRY2627 (W. Europe), I get a GD of 10 with  France, GD of 12 with 2 France and 1 Portugalia.

My GD with L165, I get a GD of 13 with 2 Scotland and a GD of 14 also from Scotland.

My matches with SRY2627 are closer but there are many mire entries on Y search for this clade so it is possible that this GD with such an uneven quantity of people might show a GD Variance similar to seing the face of Elvis on a pizza.

Will keep updating.




Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 18, 2012, 02:54:17 PM
If Z198 is below L176.2....

I thought we already knew that L176.2 was below L176.2.  Are there any L176.2+ guys that are Z198- ?  Do we know the Z198 status from either of our two SRY2627 WTY folks?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on June 18, 2012, 04:56:34 PM
If Z198 is below L176.2....

I thought we already knew that Z198 was below L176.2.  Are there any L176.2+ guys that are Z198- ?  Do we know the Z198 status from either of our two SRY2627 WTY folks?

No such case anywhere that I'm aware of.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 19, 2012, 12:23:00 PM
Since Mike has created a new DF27 account at Ysearch, I figured I'd give it a go.. I'm at a Gd of 11 at 67 markers, the account has 96 markers total. Anyone else compared themselves?

I'm 25 GD at 95 markers tested against DF27 modal.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 19, 2012, 12:25:22 PM
Since Mike has created a new DF27 account at Ysearch, I figured I'd give it a go.. I'm at a Gd of 11 at 67 markers, the account has 96 markers total. Anyone else compared themselves?

I'm 25 GD at 95 markers tested against DF27 modal.

Arch

I'm also 17 GD at 67 markers tested against SRY2627 modal.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 19, 2012, 12:45:04 PM
Since Mike has created a new DF27 account at Ysearch, I figured I'd give it a go.. I'm at a Gd of 11 at 67 markers, the account has 96 markers total. Anyone else compared themselves?

I'm 25 GD at 95 markers tested against DF27 modal.

Arch

I'm also 17 GD at 67 markers tested against SRY2627 modal.

Arch

I'm also 25 GD at 95 markers tested against Z196 modal.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 19, 2012, 12:49:24 PM
Since Mike has created a new DF27 account at Ysearch, I figured I'd give it a go.. I'm at a Gd of 11 at 67 markers, the account has 96 markers total. Anyone else compared themselves?

I'm 25 GD at 95 markers tested against DF27 modal.

Arch

I'm also 17 GD at 67 markers tested against SRY2627 modal.

Arch

I'm also 25 GD at 95 markers tested against Z196 modal.

Arch

I'm also 23 GD at 73 markers tested against S28/U152 modal.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 19, 2012, 12:57:33 PM
I am still waiting for Z198 results, if on time I should know by 6/26.

I made a GD with Mikeww's DF27 (53ZBP). I am at 13 GD based on 37 markers.

My GD with all L176.2, I get a GD of 15 with 1 Spaniard, 2 Irish and 1  Portuguese.

My GD with SRY2627 (W. Europe), I get a GD of 10 with  France, GD of 12 with 2 France and 1 Portugalia.

My GD with L165, I get a GD of 13 with 2 Scotland and a GD of 14 also from Scotland.

My matches with SRY2627 are closer but there are many mire entries on Y search for this clade so it is possible that this GD with such an uneven quantity of people might show a GD Variance similar to seing the face of Elvis on a pizza.

Will keep updating.




I know what you mean about Ysearch, there are some duplicates but I usually take all of them out of the calculation, except for one. I also do not count anything less than 67 markers and as always I prefer 90 markers or higher. Unfortunately, not a whole lot of us have reached that many markers. I'm guessing after 111 markers that GDs will not change much. The resolution from 37 to 67 STR markers however appears to make a significant difference in GD calculations.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: ArmandoR1b on June 23, 2012, 07:31:32 PM

Do we have more SNP tests pending for L176.2+ SRY2627-  and SRY2627+ people?

I think that all L176.2+ SRY2627- people should test for markers parallel to or upstream of SRY2627.  This would include L165, Z262, Z198 and L147.3.

I think that all SRY2627+ people should test for potential downstream SNPs of L276, L628 and L629.

Do I have the positioning right?

I think this is where we're at:

If Z198 is below L176.2, then you've got one of these two situations:


Z196

Z196/Z274

Z196/L176

Z196/L176/L147.3   <--- This case is true if a L147.3+ kit comes back Z198-
 (NOPE, +)
Z196/L176/Z198

Z196/L176/Z198/Z262

Z196/L176/Z198/Z262/SRY

Z196/L176/Z198/L165

// UPDATE:  The above case is now ruled out, so we're left with the following two cases.


Z196

Z196/Z274

Z196/L176

Z196/L176/Z198

Z196/L176/Z198/L147.3

Z196/L176/Z198/Z262

Z196/L176/Z198/Z262/SRY

Z196/L176/Z198/L165

If Z198 is above L176.2, then you've got this situation, and people who are Z196+/Z274-/L176.2- should test for Z198


Z196

Z196/Z274

Z196/Z198

Z196/Z198/L176

Z196/Z198/L176/L147.3

Z196/Z198/L176/Z262

Z196/Z198/L176/Z262/SRY

Z196/Z198/L176/L165

If Z198 is below L176.2....

I thought we already knew that L176.2 was below L176.2.  Are there any L176.2+ guys that are Z198- ?  Do we know the Z198 status from either of our two SRY2627 WTY folks?

I am L176.2+ SRY2627- L165- and was advised of the availability of testing for Z262 by an admin. The result isn't expected until 7/30. I was not informed of the existence of Z198 and it is not mentioned in the project. I see David said that it is not known "if Z198 is above or below L176.2" at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/message/4427

I see L147.3 mentioned in 2010 but I don't see it in the ISOGG 2012. Why is that?

Is there a page that explains the current subclades and SNPs being investigated between L176.2 and SRY2627? Which lab does the Z stand for? Which lab does L stand for? I am willing to test for Z198 and L147.3 but I want to know that I am not wasting money before I spend it.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on June 24, 2012, 12:50:10 AM

I am L176.2+ SRY2627- L165- and was advised of the availability of testing for Z262 by an admin. The result isn't expected until 7/30. I was not informed of the existence of Z198 and it is not mentioned in the project. I see David said that it is not known "if Z198 is above or below L176.2" at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/message/4427

I see L147.3 mentioned in 2010 but I don't see it in the ISOGG 2012. Why is that?

Is there a page that explains the current subclades and SNPs being investigated between L176.2 and SRY2627? Which lab does the Z stand for? Which lab does L stand for? I am willing to test for Z198 and L147.3 but I want to know that I am not wasting money before I spend it.

Z262 is your best choice at the moment.  For some reason I'm the only Z262 test that has come back positive except for the SRY2627+ case that proves that all such cases are Z262+.  I've heard there should be a bunch of Z262 tests done over the next month.  I expect they need an explicitly SRY2627- case to come back positive for Z262 before they would consider putting it on ISOGG.

If you come back Z262-, then you could try L147.3 if you like.  Somewhere, probably in this thread, there is the explanation that it is not on ISOGG because it appears in several distinct places and is therefore considered unstable.  But it is clear that there are both positive and negative cases of L147.3 under L176.2.

Every L176.2+ kit that has tested Z198 has come back positive, except for Isidro whose test still hasn't come back yet, but is supposed to be back by the 26th of June.  Eventually it should become clear if it is above or below Z176.2.

There is this chart which is about a year old:

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Draft_P312_Tree_v005.png



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: ArmandoR1b on June 24, 2012, 04:26:17 PM

I am L176.2+ SRY2627- L165- and was advised of the availability of testing for Z262 by an admin. The result isn't expected until 7/30. I was not informed of the existence of Z198 and it is not mentioned in the project. I see David said that it is not known "if Z198 is above or below L176.2" at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/message/4427

I see L147.3 mentioned in 2010 but I don't see it in the ISOGG 2012. Why is that?

Is there a page that explains the current subclades and SNPs being investigated between L176.2 and SRY2627? Which lab does the Z stand for? Which lab does L stand for? I am willing to test for Z198 and L147.3 but I want to know that I am not wasting money before I spend it.

Z262 is your best choice at the moment.  For some reason I'm the only Z262 test that has come back positive except for the SRY2627+ case that proves that all such cases are Z262+.  I've heard there should be a bunch of Z262 tests done over the next month.  I expect they need an explicitly SRY2627- case to come back positive for Z262 before they would consider putting it on ISOGG.

If you come back Z262-, then you could try L147.3 if you like.  Somewhere, probably in this thread, there is the explanation that it is not on ISOGG because it appears in several distinct places and is therefore considered unstable.  But it is clear that there are both positive and negative cases of L147.3 under L176.2.

Every L176.2+ kit that has tested Z198 has come back positive, except for Isidro whose test still hasn't come back yet, but is supposed to be back by the 26th of June.  Eventually it should become clear if it is above or below Z176.2.

There is this chart which is about a year old:

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Draft_P312_Tree_v005.png



I found your post where you said you are presumed SRY2627-. Is there a reason you haven’t tested that? I see 131195 Larabee is SRY2627- L165- as Z262+. Has he tested or is that presumed? It looks like there are now two SRY2627- L165- Z262+.

The kits under group H kits N22555, 171839, and N23705 don’t mention if they tested for SRY2627 or if they are presumed negative or positive. Does anyone here know if they are presumed negative or positive for SRY2627?





Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on June 25, 2012, 02:24:55 AM

I am L176.2+ SRY2627- L165- and was advised of the availability of testing for Z262 by an admin. The result isn't expected until 7/30. I was not informed of the existence of Z198 and it is not mentioned in the project. I see David said that it is not known "if Z198 is above or below L176.2" at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/message/4427

I see L147.3 mentioned in 2010 but I don't see it in the ISOGG 2012. Why is that?

Is there a page that explains the current subclades and SNPs being investigated between L176.2 and SRY2627? Which lab does the Z stand for? Which lab does L stand for? I am willing to test for Z198 and L147.3 but I want to know that I am not wasting money before I spend it.

Z262 is your best choice at the moment.  For some reason I'm the only Z262 test that has come back positive except for the SRY2627+ case that proves that all such cases are Z262+.  I've heard there should be a bunch of Z262 tests done over the next month.  I expect they need an explicitly SRY2627- case to come back positive for Z262 before they would consider putting it on ISOGG.

If you come back Z262-, then you could try L147.3 if you like.  Somewhere, probably in this thread, there is the explanation that it is not on ISOGG because it appears in several distinct places and is therefore considered unstable.  But it is clear that there are both positive and negative cases of L147.3 under L176.2.

Every L176.2+ kit that has tested Z198 has come back positive, except for Isidro whose test still hasn't come back yet, but is supposed to be back by the 26th of June.  Eventually it should become clear if it is above or below Z176.2.

There is this chart which is about a year old:

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Draft_P312_Tree_v005.png



I found your post where you said you are presumed SRY2627-. Is there a reason you haven’t tested that? I see 131195 Larabee is SRY2627- L165- as Z262+. Has he tested or is that presumed? It looks like there are now two SRY2627- L165- Z262+.

The kits under group H kits N22555, 171839, and N23705 don’t mention if they tested for SRY2627 or if they are presumed negative or positive. Does anyone here know if they are presumed negative or positive for SRY2627?


I'm not aware Larabee has tested Z262.  Since I'm a 66/67 match with him, I presume I'm SRY2627- and he's Z262+.  Soon after he got his L176.2 result, I tested and confirmed my L176.2, and thought my testing SRY2627 would be a waste of money.

I look at the SNP page, rather than the way kits are grouped on the "classic" page.  There it becomes clear exactly who has test results for what.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6/default.aspx?section=ysnp


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: ArmandoR1b on June 25, 2012, 05:21:43 PM
You and Larabee having a 66/67 match explains why they have you have as SRY2627- and him as Z262+. There is no need for both of you to test for those SNP's since they are thousands of years old and your MRCA ancestor likely lived one thousand or fewer years ago.

Comparing the SNP page also helps with the chart. Group H is also SRY2627- They are the few that have tested positive for L147.3.

It all makes sense now. Thanks for the replies.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on June 25, 2012, 09:02:59 PM
About 7 new Z262 results came in today.  One new positive and six new negatives.  The positive case has tested SRY2627-, so that should prove what is necessary to put Z262 into ISOGG.



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on June 25, 2012, 09:41:29 PM
About 7 new Z262 results came in today.  One new positive and six new negatives.  The positive case has tested SRY2627-, so that should prove what is necessary to put Z262 into ISOGG.



What are the ethnic backgrounds for these results?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on June 25, 2012, 10:56:09 PM
About 7 new Z262 results came in today.  One new positive and six new negatives.  The positive case has tested SRY2627-, so that should prove what is necessary to put Z262 into ISOGG.


What are the ethnic backgrounds for these results?

That's unclear.  I can prove my DNA trail to New York just before 1800, but I've got a non-paternal event sometime in the prior 100 years.  The new result is Brooks, who also goes back to around 1800 in New York, but we're not close enough to be related there and then.  All the SRY2627s are Z262+, so they count into the geography as well.  The other few kits to whom I have a strong STR relationship have only done one test, so I'm not completely confident in their pedigrees.  

Update:  Looks like there are about 5 L176.2 Brooks kits in their project going back to Massachusetts, Delaware and New York, and Vermont.

Update:  Another new Z262 on June 26th.  Sturges, origin UK.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on June 26, 2012, 11:19:53 PM
I am still waiting for Z198 results, if on time I should know by 6/26.

Will keep updating.


The 26th is almost gone.  Has your due date been updated?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on June 27, 2012, 08:24:53 AM
I am still waiting for Z198 results, if on time I should know by 6/26.

Will keep updating.


The 26th is almost gone.  Has your due date been updated?

Still no results, I check everyday, there is still a chance to get results soon, I do remember it was the case once before when I ordered a la carte.

Here is my page results for pending tests:

Pending Tests
Tests  Lab Procedure    Batch    Expected      Notes
Z198    Z198            463           6/25/2012    

Do You think I should test for the 147.3  in my case?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on June 27, 2012, 11:49:46 AM
I am still waiting for Z198 results, if on time I should know by 6/26.

Will keep updating.


The 26th is almost gone.  Has your due date been updated?

Still no results, I check everyday, there is still a chance to get results soon, I do remember it was the case once before when I ordered a la carte.

Here is my page results for pending tests:

Pending Tests
Tests  Lab Procedure    Batch    Expected      Notes
Z198    Z198            463           6/25/2012    

Do You think I should test for the 147.3  in my case?

I would email Family Tree DNA and ask them if there is a problem with your test, particularly if they don't change the "expected" date.

I wouldn't order L147.3 until your Z198 comes back, because if you're negative for Z198, you should be negative for L147.3. 


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on June 30, 2012, 02:29:37 AM
For the first time since I've gotten into this hobby, my dna group finally has a "foreign" Isaacs individual testing. His Isaacs are traced back to 1750 in Gloucestershire, England. His mdka was a Samuel Isaacs, sounds familiar,no?, So this is very interesting! He currently resides in Australia, where his family moved to back in the 1950's. Heres to hoping!!

Well, we received the results tonight and he unforunately doesn't match. Turns out they ended up matching the another Isaacs in our group of Welsh descent who matches them perfectly and  confirmed I1.

One down.. countless others to go!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on July 04, 2012, 09:43:37 AM
I am still waiting for Z198 results, if on time I should know by 6/26.

Will keep updating.


The 26th is almost gone.  Has your due date been updated?

Still no results, I check everyday, there is still a chance to get results soon, I do remember it was the case once before when I ordered a la carte.

Here is my page results for pending tests:

Pending Tests
Tests  Lab Procedure    Batch    Expected      Notes
Z198    Z198            463           6/25/2012    

Do You think I should test for the 147.3  in my case?

I would email Family Tree DNA and ask them if there is a problem with your test, particularly if they don't change the "expected" date.

I wouldn't order L147.3 until your Z198 comes back, because if you're negative for Z198, you should be negative for L147.3. 

Well, nothing has changed 8 days after the due date, no difference in expected date...I am somewhat disappointed with FTDNA about communication on the status of tests (in this case).
I will follow your advice about L143.3. You are of great help DavidCar.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on July 07, 2012, 12:03:03 AM
I am still waiting for Z198 results, if on time I should know by 6/26.

Will keep updating.


The 26th is almost gone.  Has your due date been updated?

Still no results, I check everyday, there is still a chance to get results soon, I do remember it was the case once before when I ordered a la carte.

Here is my page results for pending tests:

Pending Tests
Tests  Lab Procedure    Batch    Expected      Notes
Z198    Z198            463           6/25/2012    

Do You think I should test for the 147.3  in my case?

I would email Family Tree DNA and ask them if there is a problem with your test, particularly if they don't change the "expected" date.

I wouldn't order L147.3 until your Z198 comes back, because if you're negative for Z198, you should be negative for L147.3. 

Well, nothing has changed 8 days after the due date, no difference in expected date...I am somewhat disappointed with FTDNA about communication on the status of tests (in this case).
I will follow your advice about L143.3. You are of great help DavidCar.

That's disappointing. FTDNA really needs to give people who are in your position some priority; or at the very least, communicate.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on July 07, 2012, 03:27:57 AM
You are right Arch, I understand that FTDNA is sorting out pioneering testing, especially batching those new SNP's that are in between already known ones in the tree with no popular demand, business wise they have to make moola or at least not loose it. Maybe we should pay a 50% deposit...

Things seem a little stale in our branch for sure.For what I read one big fish is the elusive SNP that will classify old Iberia in it's corner of the map, DF27 has potential but is too widespread to be Iberian, at least this is how I read quite a few posts related to this issue.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on July 08, 2012, 10:12:11 PM
You are right Arch, I understand that FTDNA is sorting out pioneering testing, especially batching those new SNP's that are in between already known ones in the tree with no popular demand, business wise they have to make moola or at least not loose it. Maybe we should pay a 50% deposit...

Things seem a little stale in our branch for sure.For what I read one big fish is the elusive SNP that will classify old Iberia in it's corner of the map, DF27 has potential but is too widespread to be Iberian, at least this is how I read quite a few posts related to this issue

I've been in and out of the forums and was under the impression from the latest sweep of genetics testing that DF27 shows both the highest frequency and diversity in Iberia. I would really like to know what your results will be and would like to see more people in the L176.2 branch test.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on July 08, 2012, 10:18:27 PM
You are right Arch, I understand that FTDNA is sorting out pioneering testing, especially batching those new SNP's that are in between already known ones in the tree with no popular demand, business wise they have to make moola or at least not loose it. Maybe we should pay a 50% deposit...

Things seem a little stale in our branch for sure.For what I read one big fish is the elusive SNP that will classify old Iberia in it's corner of the map, DF27 has potential but is too widespread to be Iberian, at least this is how I read quite a few posts related to this issue

I've been in and out of the forums and was under the impression from the latest sweep of genetics testing that DF27 shows both the highest frequency and diversity in Iberia. I would really like to know what your results will be and would like to see more people in the L176.2 branch test.

Arch

It appears to me that DF27 is upstream from Z196, so all L176.2+ should be DF27+


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 09, 2012, 12:39:24 AM
You are right Arch, I understand that FTDNA is sorting out pioneering testing, especially batching those new SNP's that are in between already known ones in the tree with no popular demand, business wise they have to make moola or at least not loose it. Maybe we should pay a 50% deposit...

Things seem a little stale in our branch for sure.For what I read one big fish is the elusive SNP that will classify old Iberia in it's corner of the map, DF27 has potential but is too widespread to be Iberian, at least this is how I read quite a few posts related to this issue

I've been in and out of the forums and was under the impression from the latest sweep of genetics testing that DF27 shows both the highest frequency and diversity in Iberia. I would really like to know what your results will be and would like to see more people in the L176.2 branch test.

Arch

The highest frequency in DF27 will no doubt be in Iberia.  Although not quite as prevalent, DF27's penetration of Iberia is akin to L21's of Ireland.

However, on diversity, I haven't seen yet that it is higher for Df27 in Iberia. Where do you see that?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on July 09, 2012, 02:11:14 AM
You are right Arch, I understand that FTDNA is sorting out pioneering testing, especially batching those new SNP's that are in between already known ones in the tree with no popular demand, business wise they have to make moola or at least not loose it. Maybe we should pay a 50% deposit...

Things seem a little stale in our branch for sure.For what I read one big fish is the elusive SNP that will classify old Iberia in it's corner of the map, DF27 has potential but is too widespread to be Iberian, at least this is how I read quite a few posts related to this issue

I've been in and out of the forums and was under the impression from the latest sweep of genetics testing that DF27 shows both the highest frequency and diversity in Iberia. I would really like to know what your results will be and would like to see more people in the L176.2 branch test.

Arch

The highest frequency in DF27 will no doubt be in Iberia.  Although not quite as prevalent, DF27's penetration of Iberia is akin to L21's of Ireland.

However, on diversity, I haven't seen yet that it is higher for Df27 in Iberia. Where do you see that?

I was under the impression that it was, I honestly can't find the exact posting mentioning it (higher diversity) but I do recall it being discussed.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Richard Rocca on July 09, 2012, 08:03:14 AM
I was under the impression that it was, I honestly can't find the exact posting mentioning it (higher diversity) but I do recall it being discussed.

Arch

Based on Mike's last spreadsheet, it seems to be France (as a country).


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on July 12, 2012, 09:18:01 AM
I got a response from FTDNA on my test for Z198.
They have tried to run it twice without success, they are testing it as we speak for the third time and expect results in a week or two.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on July 13, 2012, 03:17:30 AM
I got a response from FTDNA on my test for Z198.
They have tried to run it twice without success, they are testing it as we speak for the third time and expect results in a week or two.

Good deal! Hopefully results will come out sooner since this issue has their attention.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on July 13, 2012, 01:57:24 PM
I got a response from FTDNA on my test for Z198.
They have tried to run it twice without success, they are testing it as we speak for the third time and expect results in a week or two.

Good deal! Hopefully results will come out sooner since this issue has their attention.

Arch

Here's a strange thought.  What if, instead of Isidro being Z198+ or Z198-, he doesn't have a Z198?  Is that possible?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on July 14, 2012, 01:12:23 AM
Another Z198+ test was posted today, making a total of 5.  I think the latest one was Miller. 


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on July 14, 2012, 09:05:53 AM
I got a response from FTDNA on my test for Z198.
They have tried to run it twice without success, they are testing it as we speak for the third time and expect results in a week or two.

Good deal! Hopefully results will come out sooner since this issue has their attention.

Arch

Good wish. I do hope it comes true.
I did come across testing problems before, I was posted  positive for U106 for a few days before I got P312* when I did deep clade testing.
Then I have the unusual DYS454=12, only 3% of all haplogroups have this value.
Also as you know Arch per my autosomal of European regions  I get percentages matching my top 3 populations at a 10% higher rate than usual (both my kids have regular percentages).

Que sera sera...


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on July 19, 2012, 09:21:29 AM
Testing for Z198 status is the same as reported above.

Hmmm


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on July 19, 2012, 09:57:49 AM
Testing for Z198 status is the same as reported above.

Hmmm

These are some clips from a June thread in the U106 forum talking about a similar situation:


Kidder, Kit 175525, my test for L128 has failed twice. It is being run again. It
will be a couple of weeks yet.Hoping for a good test ! Bob

Reply #1:
Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] L128 result

A strategy that Mike Maddi employed in a similar situation was to take the bull by the horns, in a diplomatic way. He called them and suggested that perhaps they might want to send him a fresh swab kit, which they did, and shortly after he returned it, voila!

I think you should attempt this strategy.

Reply #2:
Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] L128 result

If the test fails again consider the possibility that you have a SNP sitting where the primers are trying to do their work.....

Reply #3:

Re: L128 result

With respect to null/ambiguous SNP test results, I added a note to the DF21 Results page today about a null result for L459. Key take away is that FTDNA lists null/ambiguous results as if they were ancestral, which is very misleading.

Regards,
david

The note referred to above:

Null L459

Kit 161731 is a well tested kit that is a member of the R-DF5* clade. An L459- result was reported for that kit, which makes no sense in the context of the other testing. The end-user reported:

In regard to L459, the problem is with the way FTDNA reports null alleles. FTDNA is reporting my result as L459-, but the result was actually ambiguous, meaning there was no result. FTDNA reports these as ancestral (-), by FTDNA convention.

An ambiguous result can occur for many reasons, but after a brief discussion with Thomas, the most likely culprit is an SNP at or near the primer locus preventing it (the primer) from binding.

I believe FTDNA ran L459 for me 8 times and all failed; FTDNA will not continue to test ad infinitum as whatever the condition that exists that was preventing this segment from being read is still present, and any additional testing with the same primer will almost certainly fail as well.

Thomas Krahn verified the above on 16 July 2012 and added:

161731 has a regular haplotype without any visible deletions, therefore I'd guess it is some local point mutation that prevents the primer from binding. He is the only L459 Null I know of.

Therefore, the L459 result for kit 161731 should be regarded as a Null L459 result; it is not an ancestral L459 result.



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on August 09, 2012, 07:54:18 PM
Has anybody commented on the fact that Z262 is now on Thomas Krahn's draft tree?  Hovering on the little star, it appears to have been added 17 days ago.  If that's been discussed here, I missed it.

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=65388520

There was discussion earlier about trying to get it onto the ISOGG tree.  That hasn't happened yet.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on August 09, 2012, 08:03:10 PM
Has anybody commented on the fact that Z262 is now on Thomas Krahn's draft tree?  Hovering on the little star, it appears to have been added 17 days ago.  If that's been discussed here, I missed it.

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=65388520

There was discussion earlier about trying to get it onto the ISOGG tree.  That hasn't happened yet.

I had heard that elsewhere, but it was not mentioned here.  That's at least some progress.  I also hear ISOGG just got updated, but not with Z262.

And there's another Z262+ in the group, by one of my near STR matches with no known pedigree link. 

And we've not heard from Isidro for a while, though I see there's still no Z198 result.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on August 25, 2012, 12:56:48 AM
I am still waiting for Z198 results, if on time I should know by 6/26.

Will keep updating.


The 26th is almost gone.  Has your due date been updated?

Still no results, I check everyday, there is still a chance to get results soon, I do remember it was the case once before when I ordered a la carte.

Here is my page results for pending tests:

Pending Tests
Tests  Lab Procedure    Batch    Expected      Notes
Z198    Z198            463           6/25/2012    

Do You think I should test for the 147.3  in my case?

I would email Family Tree DNA and ask them if there is a problem with your test, particularly if they don't change the "expected" date.

I wouldn't order L147.3 until your Z198 comes back, because if you're negative for Z198, you should be negative for L147.3. 

Well, nothing has changed 8 days after the due date, no difference in expected date...I am somewhat disappointed with FTDNA about communication on the status of tests (in this case).
I will follow your advice about L147.3. You are of great help DavidCar.

Here's a thought.  If you tested for L147.3 and it came back positive, you would know that you were Z198+, but that somehow the Z198 test was inconclusive.  If the L147.3 test came back negative, or didn't produce an answer, then it wouldn't tell you as much.  Or you could save up for a Geno 2.0 test rather than take another single SNP test.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on September 01, 2012, 10:17:27 AM


Here's a thought.  If you tested for L147.3 and it came back positive, you would know that you were Z198+, but that somehow the Z198 test was inconclusive.  If the L147.3 test came back negative, or didn't produce an answer, then it wouldn't tell you as much.  Or you could save up for a Geno 2.0 test rather than take another single SNP test.

I am contemplating this Genome 2.0.   I think $30 per SNP is is more like I share a research expense more than buying a product.

It seems like after 2 months after  the due date the only thing I will hear from FTDNA is a result - or + there is no signs or updates. I am really not interested in my money back, too much hassle. They are not the only DNA testing company out there and I know from my own line of business if I don't do follow ups I will loose them as costumers.



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on September 01, 2012, 11:51:17 AM


Here's a thought.  If you tested for L147.3 and it came back positive, you would know that you were Z198+, but that somehow the Z198 test was inconclusive.  If the L147.3 test came back negative, or didn't produce an answer, then it wouldn't tell you as much.  Or you could save up for a Geno 2.0 test rather than take another single SNP test.

I am contemplating this Genome 2.0.   I think $30 per SNP is is more like I share a research expense more than buying a product.

It seems like after 2 months after  the due date the only thing I will hear from FTDNA is a result - or + there is no signs or updates. I am really not interested in my money back, too much hassle. They are not the only DNA testing company out there and I know from my own line of business if I don't do follow ups I will loose them as costumers.



I know what you mean. I've been weary of them every since it took them four months to confirm that I was infact, SRY2627 positive. They really seem to have alot of trouble with the DF27 and subclades testing. I guess since we're so similar to our brothers and cousins under P312 and the vast majority of testers are L21 Brits and Irish, we probably present somewhat of problem for them. In that we look like them, but we're not quite the same either.

I've noticed today that I match pretty closely with a few of the Roxcluster guys at the first twelve markers. I know you can't really make anything out of the first twelve markers, but it is interesting that they too belong to Z196, have Scottish ancestry and have 14 repeats at DYS392. Actually I think match with four of them total, some are Roxburghs and some are Roseberrys. I'm guessing Roseberry is some sort of off shoot of Roxburgh?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on September 01, 2012, 12:18:16 PM


Here's a thought.  If you tested for L147.3 and it came back positive, you would know that you were Z198+, but that somehow the Z198 test was inconclusive.  If the L147.3 test came back negative, or didn't produce an answer, then it wouldn't tell you as much.  Or you could save up for a Geno 2.0 test rather than take another single SNP test.

I am contemplating this Genome 2.0.   I think $30 per SNP is is more like I share a research expense more than buying a product.

It seems like after 2 months after  the due date the only thing I will hear from FTDNA is a result - or + there is no signs or updates. I am really not interested in my money back, too much hassle. They are not the only DNA testing company out there and I know from my own line of business if I don't do follow ups I will loose them as costumers.



I believe your original kit was a Genographic 1.0 test, so you should get a $30  on the Genographic 2.0 test.  I also note you've done the 23andme test, so you already know part of what you would discover with the Geno 2.0 test.  You will be able to transfer your Geno 2.0 results to your FTDNA account, and I believe it's FTDNA that will do the actual lab work for Geno 2.0.

It would be interesting to know if there are any L176.2s or SRY2627s who have ordered Geno 2.0.  I have a U106-Z1 kit for which we ordered Geno 2.0, and I know various other Z1s who have ordered it as well, so we should find out if we discover anything new within Z1, or if our expectations are too high.  I doubt the family group sponsoring my L176.2-Z262 kit will want to do Geno 2.0.

I've never had that long of a delay with a SNP test, so I don't understand the problem with your Z198.  It appears L176.2xSRY2627 is a small group, so we may be about at the end of what we can discover there anyway, until more people take DNA tests.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on September 01, 2012, 02:04:13 PM


Here's a thought.  If you tested for L147.3 and it came back positive, you would know that you were Z198+, but that somehow the Z198 test was inconclusive.  If the L147.3 test came back negative, or didn't produce an answer, then it wouldn't tell you as much.  Or you could save up for a Geno 2.0 test rather than take another single SNP test.

I am contemplating this Genome 2.0.   I think $30 per SNP is is more like I share a research expense more than buying a product.

It seems like after 2 months after  the due date the only thing I will hear from FTDNA is a result - or + there is no signs or updates. I am really not interested in my money back, too much hassle. They are not the only DNA testing company out there and I know from my own line of business if I don't do follow ups I will loose them as costumers.



Still, it's interesting to compare the similarities and differences in the STRs of your kit and the L147.2+ kits.  You seem to be closer to L147.2 than the other Z262- kits in some of your markers, but not others.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on September 02, 2012, 12:56:40 PM


[/quote]
DavidCar

Still, it's interesting to compare the similarities and differences in the STRs of your kit and the L147.2+ kits.  You seem to be closer to L147.2 than the other Z262- kits in some of your markers, but not others.
[/quote]

Thanks for the suggestions. Although I read World Family Forums R1b and Subclades often I am not deep into it as much.
I will look into what you described with L143.2 STR's comparisons and  overall picture, it does sound worthy.Is there a place online where I can see the data you described?, I know about Y-Search but I have the feeling is another source.

Isidro


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on September 02, 2012, 02:33:45 PM


DavidCar

Still, it's interesting to compare the similarities and differences in the STRs of your kit and the L147.2+ kits.  You seem to be closer to L147.2 than the other Z262- kits in some of your markers, but not others.
[/quote]

Thanks for the suggestions. Although I read World Family Forums R1b and Subclades often I am not deep into it as much.
I will look into what you described with L143.2 STR's comparisons and  overall picture, it does sound worthy.Is there a place online where I can see the data you described?, I know about Y-Search but I have the feeling is another source.

Isidro
[/quote]

This is where I was looking for a comparison:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

Just above the section showing the group that is Z262- it shows the three people who are L143.2+.  Those in the Z262- section that are proven L143.2- are Turnbull, Miller, Pleis and Mas. 

For example, I notice that the first four STRs of the L143.2+ group are 13-24-14-10, but you're the only one in the Z262- group with those numbers.  That's not consistent through the whole list, but it's interesting to do the comparison. 



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on September 20, 2012, 01:15:39 AM
I notice that both Z198 and L143.2 are now listed as being under investigation for placement on the official ISOGG tree.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on September 20, 2012, 09:26:07 PM
I mentioned this on another thread, but I want to repost here and discuss the meaning of my recent discoveries.

I have recently matched an Isaac from Devon, England with a Gd of 1 to 2 at 37 markers depending on the person from my group.

This guy isn't SRY2627 confirmed yet, but I am working on that angle. I will be very surprised if he doesn't show up positive for this marker.

Another interesting piece to this puzzle that I have been looking at is individual from Brittany. We have a faily high gd, but he is displaying the 392=14 trait and is 490=12. So I'm thinking he may be a relic of my Y-lines migration from France to the Southern Coast of England.

I'm guessing if this all follows through then I would be the result of an ancient Gaul migrating up into England or something like that. Nothings set in stone, just some preliminary speculation.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on September 21, 2012, 10:31:40 AM


Just above the section showing the group that is Z262- it shows the three people who are L143.2+.  Those in the Z262- section that are proven L143.2- are Turnbull, Miller, Pleis and Mas.  

For example, I notice that the first four STRs of the L143.2+ group are 13-24-14-10, but you're the only one in the Z262- group with those numbers.  That's not consistent through the whole list, but it's interesting to do the comparison.  






That is interesting, 13-24-14-10 is significant if it also matches L176.2. I do have to say that at 12 markers I have thousands of matches across all branches of P312+ and a few U106 but when it comes to 25 marker closest matches are England and Germany.
It could be due to volume of tested people .
Then again I think that the first 12 marker set was picked as a formula to track deep ancestry and FTDNA hotspots for me are Scotland and Switzerland (Swiss might be biased for a clan of related individuals, it used to be 10% 4 years ago)

Country            Match Total    Country Total        Percentage

Switzerland              52                       1844                 2.8%    
Scotland                296                     11425                 2.6%              
 Northern Ireland      17                         816                 2.1%
England                    448                 23931                 1.9%
Wales                      39                     2029                 1.9%
France                      61                       3366                 1.8%
United Kingdom    188                     10657                 1.8%
Ireland                    245                     14064                 1.7%
Netherlands              25                       1709                 1.5%
Iceland                        2                         147                 1.4%
Norway                      18                       1335                 1.3%
Spain                      43                       3351                 1.3%

Now those above are 12 marker exact matches, I do have the WAMH with a STR=393=10 instead of 11.
 



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on September 21, 2012, 11:18:10 AM
I mentioned this on another thread, but I want to repost here and discuss the meaning of my recent discoveries.

I have recently matched an Isaac from Devon, England with a Gd of 1 to 2 at 37 markers depending on the person from my group.

This guy isn't SRY2627 confirmed yet, but I am working on that angle. I will be very surprised if he doesn't show up positive for this marker.

Another interesting piece to this puzzle that I have been looking at is individual from Brittany. We have a faily high gd, but he is displaying the 392=14 trait and is 490=12. So I'm thinking he may be a relic of my Y-lines migration from France to the Southern Coast of England.

I'm guessing if this all follows through then I would be the result of an ancient Gaul migrating up into England or something like that. Nothings set in stone, just some preliminary speculation.

That is a pretty good lead at 37 markers I do hope it pans out.

I agree with you about the overall Gaul migration, perhaps also in my case although my oldest Y Line is Valencia region double sets of surnames (mother line and father line back to late 1700' point North to the Pyrenees region, on my mother's side the surname Galindo does sound like Gaul related but I have no origin source other than Aragon .


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on September 21, 2012, 04:03:03 PM
I mentioned this on another thread, but I want to repost here and discuss the meaning of my recent discoveries.

I have recently matched an Isaac from Devon, England with a Gd of 1 to 2 at 37 markers depending on the person from my group.

This guy isn't SRY2627 confirmed yet, but I am working on that angle. I will be very surprised if he doesn't show up positive for this marker.

Another interesting piece to this puzzle that I have been looking at is individual from Brittany. We have a faily high gd, but he is displaying the 392=14 trait and is 490=12. So I'm thinking he may be a relic of my Y-lines migration from France to the Southern Coast of England.

I'm guessing if this all follows through then I would be the result of an ancient Gaul migrating up into England or something like that. Nothings set in stone, just some preliminary speculation.

That is a pretty good lead at 37 markers I do hope it pans out.

I agree with you about the overall Gaul migration, perhaps also in my case although my oldest Y Line is Valencia region double sets of surnames (mother line and father line back to late 1700' point North to the Pyrenees region, on my mother's side the surname Galindo does sound like Gaul related but I have no origin source other than Aragon .


Well, now I'm not so sure! I discovered that this person is actually an American and I'm not entirely sure his ancestry is out of Devon. You see, my surname or rather his surname "Isaac" is very commonly associated with Devon.  A coat of arms was granted to the Isaac family of Devonshire in the reign of Henry III. So, this person could have easily read that and assumed, based on their surname, that they would have origins in this area.

From what I gather this guy was originally from Oregon. This is also a red flag, as there is a specific branch from my main Isaacks branch that went to Oregon and changed the surname to "Isaac". His ancestral trail also ends farily recent and doesn't specify as to where. He just has it listed as being born in 1841 and date of death for 1912. So I'm guessing he is listing his Grandfather as his mdka.

I'm not sure at this point! He could just be an American with a confused sense of where his ancestral roots lie.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on September 21, 2012, 04:11:07 PM
IMO a good 37 marker match with your surname is going to prove something more interesting than the Devon bit -- which is probably nowhere near as old as SRY2627, anyhow.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: on the edge on September 21, 2012, 04:28:06 PM
I mentioned this on another thread, but I want to repost here and discuss the meaning of my recent discoveries.

I have recently matched an Isaac from Devon, England with a Gd of 1 to 2 at 37 markers depending on the person from my group.

This guy isn't SRY2627 confirmed yet, but I am working on that angle. I will be very surprised if he doesn't show up positive for this marker.

Another interesting piece to this puzzle that I have been looking at is individual from Brittany. We have a faily high gd, but he is displaying the 392=14 trait and is 490=12. So I'm thinking he may be a relic of my Y-lines migration from France to the Southern Coast of England.

I'm guessing if this all follows through then I would be the result of an ancient Gaul migrating up into England or something like that. Nothings set in stone, just some preliminary speculation.

That is a pretty good lead at 37 markers I do hope it pans out.

I agree with you about the overall Gaul migration, perhaps also in my case although my oldest Y Line is Valencia region double sets of surnames (mother line and father line back to late 1700' point North to the Pyrenees region, on my mother's side the surname Galindo does sound like Gaul related but I have no origin source other than Aragon .


Well, now I'm not so sure! I discovered that this person is actually an American and I'm not entirely sure his ancestry is out of Devon. You see, my surname or rather his surname "Isaac" is very commonly associated with Devon.  A coat of arms was granted to the Isaac family of Devonshire in the reign of Henry III. So, this person could have easily read that and assumed, based on their surname, that they would have origins in this area.

From what I gather this guy was originally from Oregon. This is also a red flag, as there is a specific branch from my main Isaacks branch that went to Oregon and changed the surname to "Isaac". His ancestral trail also ends farily recent and doesn't specify as to where. He just has it listed as being born in 1841 and date of death for 1912. So I'm guessing he is listing his Grandfather as his mdka.

I'm not sure at this point! He could just be an American with a confused sense of where his ancestral roots lie.


According to the Devon project background page, a requirement for joining the project is that participants must have a documented paper trail to Devon?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on September 21, 2012, 04:32:55 PM
I mentioned this on another thread, but I want to repost here and discuss the meaning of my recent discoveries.

I have recently matched an Isaac from Devon, England with a Gd of 1 to 2 at 37 markers depending on the person from my group.

This guy isn't SRY2627 confirmed yet, but I am working on that angle. I will be very surprised if he doesn't show up positive for this marker.

Another interesting piece to this puzzle that I have been looking at is individual from Brittany. We have a faily high gd, but he is displaying the 392=14 trait and is 490=12. So I'm thinking he may be a relic of my Y-lines migration from France to the Southern Coast of England.

I'm guessing if this all follows through then I would be the result of an ancient Gaul migrating up into England or something like that. Nothings set in stone, just some preliminary speculation.

That is a pretty good lead at 37 markers I do hope it pans out.

I agree with you about the overall Gaul migration, perhaps also in my case although my oldest Y Line is Valencia region double sets of surnames (mother line and father line back to late 1700' point North to the Pyrenees region, on my mother's side the surname Galindo does sound like Gaul related but I have no origin source other than Aragon .


Well, now I'm not so sure! I discovered that this person is actually an American and I'm not entirely sure his ancestry is out of Devon. You see, my surname or rather his surname "Isaac" is very commonly associated with Devon.  A coat of arms was granted to the Isaac family of Devonshire in the reign of Henry III. So, this person could have easily read that and assumed, based on their surname, that they would have origins in this area.

From what I gather this guy was originally from Oregon. This is also a red flag, as there is a specific branch from my main Isaacks branch that went to Oregon and changed the surname to "Isaac". His ancestral trail also ends farily recent and doesn't specify as to where. He just has it listed as being born in 1841 and date of death for 1912. So I'm guessing he is listing his Grandfather as his mdka.

I'm not sure at this point! He could just be an American with a confused sense of where his ancestral roots lie.


According to the Devon project background page, a requirement for joining the project is that participants must have a documented paper trail to Devon?

Thats true, I forgot about that.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on September 21, 2012, 04:43:04 PM
IMO a good 37 marker match with your surname is going to prove something more interesting than the Devon bit -- which is probably nowhere near as old as SRY2627, anyhow.

I personally don't match him that closely.. I have a few off-modal markers from the rest of the group and we are actually at a Gd of 6 at 37 markers. Whereas with some members he is at a Gd of 1 to three.

His ancestry to Devon is fairly recent and only goes back to 1912. Which, now that I remembered you have to have an actual paper trail to join the devon project, is all the more encouraging. As they do not accept Americans with ancestry to Devon who do not have a fairly recent link.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on September 23, 2012, 04:18:50 PM
I've not heard from my potential cousin yet, perhaps he doesn't want to associate with his hillbilly kin :)

At any rate, I have been able to find out how he ended up stateside. It seems his Father moved to Kansas back in the early 1900's. His family was originally from Braunton, Devon, where they had been farmers for as far back as I am currently able to trace.

From what I've been able to trace, the family has been in Devon since at least the late 1700's.

This is pure speculation and I have mentioned this on dna-forums, but I'm thinking the family may have further roots in Cornwall and that the surname may be of the Cornish language.

I'm thinking the surname may some how be related to Port Isaac, which in Cornish is "Porthysek" which was further Anglicised to "Porth Izzick" and eventually to its modern spelling of Port Isaac. I've found quite a few "Isaack's" in Devon from the early 1600's and I'm assuming that the name was originally spelt that way for my modern day Isaac cousins as well.

My original ancestor, Samuel Isaack, did not spell his name with an "s" at the end of it and it seems it was later changed by county clerks/officials to Isaacks. All of the early documents that have my families signatures on them always spelt the name Isaac.

I forgot to mention this earlier, but the person from Brittany is also SRY2627 confirmed and is listed in the SRY2627 project.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on September 23, 2012, 07:33:00 PM
I've not heard from my potential cousin yet, perhaps he doesn't want to associate with his hillbilly kin :)

At any rate, I have been able to find out how he ended up stateside. It seems his Father moved to Kansas back in the early 1900's. His family was originally from Braunton, Devon, where they had been farmers for as far back as I am currently able to trace.

From what I've been able to trace, the family has been in Devon since at least the late 1700's.

This is pure speculation and I have mentioned this on dna-forums, but I'm thinking the family may have further roots in Cornwall and that the surname may be of the Cornish language.

I'm thinking the surname may some how be related to Port Isaac, which in Cornish is "Porthysek" which was further Anglicised to "Porth Izzick" and eventually to its modern spelling of Port Isaac. I've found quite a few "Isaack's" in Devon from the early 1600's and I'm assuming that the name was originally spelt that way for my modern day Isaac cousins as well.

My original ancestor, Samuel Isaack, did not spell his name with an "s" at the end of it and it seems it was later changed by county clerks/officials to Isaacks. All of the early documents that have my families signatures on them always spelt the name Isaac.

I forgot to mention this earlier, but the person from Brittany is also SRY2627 confirmed and is listed in the SRY2627 project.

With all the variants of surnames and the adoption of other surnames, it certainly makes genealogy a real time intensive task; perhaps more suitable for retirees than working folk. I completely understand the frustration and temptation for wanting to associate with place names, etc. I think the odds are more in your favor of your surname being tied to patrynomic event rather than placename or occupation. Mine is frustrating because it could mean a son of a yeoman or is connected with young man or servant. So I have a mixed bag and scrolling through genealogical records is frustrating because of how the English classified the term yeoman as a status within society as a whole.

My only hope right now is finding another SRY2627 person and tying the surname to mine or one of its variants. Right now I am heavily focused on Tune because there is documentation about James Tune who is apparently related to a James Yeomans in Rappahannock County within the Northern Neck of Virginia. It appears both were heavily vested in Tobacco plantations in the area. I'm trying to find a connection to Simon Yeomans (fishmonger) who was a merchant that vested with the Virginia Company. Also, the Yeamans of Barbados or Yeomans were involved in sugar plantations in Barbados--earlier it was tobacco but it didn't do as well as sugar.

My understanding that many of the immigrants to North America in the mid to early 1600s went by way of Barbados and northwards. Bermuda was kind of an off and on thing and a mere fluke of rediscovery with the famous Sea Venture. I am really interested in the Yeamans of Bristol, Barbados, and South Carolina and would like to know if the lines connect anywhere in Virginia. I never really considered this region because my immediate line has always been in the New England region. But I am finding interesting tidbits of history, even if I am coming up empty handed for genealogical information. The searching is part of the adventure!

Arch



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on September 24, 2012, 12:41:42 AM
I've not heard from my potential cousin yet, perhaps he doesn't want to associate with his hillbilly kin :)

At any rate, I have been able to find out how he ended up stateside. It seems his Father moved to Kansas back in the early 1900's. His family was originally from Braunton, Devon, where they had been farmers for as far back as I am currently able to trace.

From what I've been able to trace, the family has been in Devon since at least the late 1700's.

This is pure speculation and I have mentioned this on dna-forums, but I'm thinking the family may have further roots in Cornwall and that the surname may be of the Cornish language.

I'm thinking the surname may some how be related to Port Isaac, which in Cornish is "Porthysek" which was further Anglicised to "Porth Izzick" and eventually to its modern spelling of Port Isaac. I've found quite a few "Isaack's" in Devon from the early 1600's and I'm assuming that the name was originally spelt that way for my modern day Isaac cousins as well.

My original ancestor, Samuel Isaack, did not spell his name with an "s" at the end of it and it seems it was later changed by county clerks/officials to Isaacks. All of the early documents that have my families signatures on them always spelt the name Isaac.

I forgot to mention this earlier, but the person from Brittany is also SRY2627 confirmed and is listed in the SRY2627 project.

With all the variants of surnames and the adoption of other surnames, it certainly makes genealogy a real time intensive task; perhaps more suitable for retirees than working folk. I completely understand the frustration and temptation for wanting to associate with place names, etc. I think the odds are more in your favor of your surname being tied to patrynomic event rather than placename or occupation. Mine is frustrating because it could mean a son of a yeoman or is connected with young man or servant. So I have a mixed bag and scrolling through genealogical records is frustrating because of how the English classified the term yeoman as a status within society as a whole.

My only hope right now is finding another SRY2627 person and tying the surname to mine or one of its variants. Right now I am heavily focused on Tune because there is documentation about James Tune who is apparently related to a James Yeomans in Rappahannock County within the Northern Neck of Virginia. It appears both were heavily vested in Tobacco plantations in the area. I'm trying to find a connection to Simon Yeomans (fishmonger) who was a merchant that vested with the Virginia Company. Also, the Yeamans of Barbados or Yeomans were involved in sugar plantations in Barbados--earlier it was tobacco but it didn't do as well as sugar.

My understanding that many of the immigrants to North America in the mid to early 1600s went by way of Barbados and northwards. Bermuda was kind of an off and on thing and a mere fluke of rediscovery with the famous Sea Venture. I am really interested in the Yeamans of Bristol, Barbados, and South Carolina and would like to know if the lines connect anywhere in Virginia. I never really considered this region because my immediate line has always been in the New England region. But I am finding interesting tidbits of history, even if I am coming up empty handed for genealogical information. The searching is part of the adventure!

Arch



At this point I'd have to say it's a 50/50 shot of being either of Patronymic or Place name.. But most likely is Patronymic and could possibly be from Wales. As Isaac occurs most frequently in Southern Wales. I don't know what I did with it, but a kind fellow from dna forums mailed me a map displaying this dominance a couple years back.

I also recieved an email from my "cousin" and it turns out that his family emigrated here a bit earlier than I had originally thought. His Great Grandfather came over in the 1870's and they settled into Kansas. They were originally from Whitestone, which is just outside of Exetor, Devonshire.

He says hes not interested in doing any furthing testing.. story of my life!! Hopefully I can convince him to deep-clade test.. which if he was interested in learning more about this I would suggest to test to at least 67 markers.. Though I'd rather just have confirmation that he is infact SRY2627 positive.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on September 24, 2012, 04:51:57 PM
I know it's really frustrating to get more people to test. No less to get those who tested from 12 to 37 markers. It's almost pointless why 12 marker tests are offered anymore. 37 markers are close, but not good enough. A long wish of mine is that 67 markers become the standard test, but this is not going to happen--not for a long while.

I would love for people who have ancestry from the Northern Neck of Virginia in the 1600s and towards Jamestown to test. Last night I came across the Colston line in Rappahannock County in the Farnham Parish. What are the odds? This family is very strongly connected with the Yeamans line in Bristol during the Civil War. I was quite surprised to come across this information as William Colston (son of the famous Edward Colston) arrived to Rappahannock nearly the same time period as James Yeomans is identified as having arrived by around 1651.

I know what you mean about the frustration when people start their DNA testing or genealogical research and then altogether stop; especially if it's helping you out.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on September 24, 2012, 07:54:30 PM
I know it's really frustrating to get more people to test. No less to get those who tested from 12 to 37 markers. It's almost pointless why 12 marker tests are offered anymore. 37 markers are close, but not good enough. A long wish of mine is that 67 markers become the standard test, but this is not going to happen--not for a long while.

I would love for people who have ancestry from the Northern Neck of Virginia in the 1600s and towards Jamestown to test. Last night I came across the Colston line in Rappahannock County in the Farnham Parish. What are the odds? This family is very strongly connected with the Yeamans line in Bristol during the Civil War. I was quite surprised to come across this information as William Colston (son of the famous Edward Colston) arrived to Rappahannock nearly the same time period as James Yeomans is identified as having arrived by around 1651.

I know what you mean about the frustration when people start their DNA testing or genealogical research and then altogether stop; especially if it's helping you out.

Arch

Thats what I don't understand.. What is the point of doing the test up to 37 markers and then just suddenly stopping and saying your not doing anymore? I explained to him that my little group has been researching and trying to figure out where we came from for the past hundred or so years... And that his dna may hold the key to helping us finally solve this mystery.. I even offered to set up a donation for the testing that is required.. We'll see what happens, hopefully, I can find another male Isaac from this region.. I know there are quite a few walking around there to this day..

I've managed to get him further back in his family tree to a John Isaac of Coldridge, Devonshire who was a Yeoman/Farmer in the region and was born there around 1768. This is really getting interesting for me, since I'm getting ever closer to linking up my Samuel Isaac who had to have been born somewhere near there in the 1680's. They have a long list of Christenings/Baptism's, but they all seem to stop with this John.. I'm thinking he may have been the first to move this region from either a different part of England or maybe even Wales. Its just a hop and a skip to Southern Wales from Devonshire.. Cornwall is also a strong possibility.

I feel your pain in doing Northern Virginia research.. Thats all I've been doing since I got into this little hobby a few years back. If you were not Anglican, your basically out of luck with regards to records being kept. Most were either lost, never kept, or destroyed during the Revoloutionary or Civil war's. Northern Virginia was also home to alot of Dissenters, so that further compounds the problem.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on September 25, 2012, 02:59:51 AM
I know it's really frustrating to get more people to test. No less to get those who tested from 12 to 37 markers. It's almost pointless why 12 marker tests are offered anymore. 37 markers are close, but not good enough. A long wish of mine is that 67 markers become the standard test, but this is not going to happen--not for a long while.

I would love for people who have ancestry from the Northern Neck of Virginia in the 1600s and towards Jamestown to test. Last night I came across the Colston line in Rappahannock County in the Farnham Parish. What are the odds? This family is very strongly connected with the Yeamans line in Bristol during the Civil War. I was quite surprised to come across this information as William Colston (son of the famous Edward Colston) arrived to Rappahannock nearly the same time period as James Yeomans is identified as having arrived by around 1651.

I know what you mean about the frustration when people start their DNA testing or genealogical research and then altogether stop; especially if it's helping you out.

Arch

Thats what I don't understand.. What is the point of doing the test up to 37 markers and then just suddenly stopping and saying your not doing anymore? I explained to him that my little group has been researching and trying to figure out where we came from for the past hundred or so years... And that his dna may hold the key to helping us finally solve this mystery.. I even offered to set up a donation for the testing that is required.. We'll see what happens, hopefully, I can find another male Isaac from this region.. I know there are quite a few walking around there to this day..

I've managed to get him further back in his family tree to a John Isaac of Coldridge, Devonshire who was a Yeoman/Farmer in the region and was born there around 1768. This is really getting interesting for me, since I'm getting ever closer to linking up my Samuel Isaac who had to have been born somewhere near there in the 1680's. They have a long list of Christenings/Baptism's, but they all seem to stop with this John.. I'm thinking he may have been the first to move this region from either a different part of England or maybe even Wales. Its just a hop and a skip to Southern Wales from Devonshire.. Cornwall is also a strong possibility.

I feel your pain in doing Northern Virginia research.. Thats all I've been doing since I got into this little hobby a few years back. If you were not Anglican, your basically out of luck with regards to records being kept. Most were either lost, never kept, or destroyed during the Revoloutionary or Civil war's. Northern Virginia was also home to alot of Dissenters, so that further compounds the problem.

The problem with records being lost or destroyed because of fire is really discouraging. I have two areas of focus, Boston and Rappahnannock County, Virginia where both events happened and of course in the time frames where valuable information is missing. For Boston, it was around the late 1800s and Rappahannock anything before 1650 I think is pretty much destroyed. Of course, being established from Lancaster County and that county from Northumberland County I believe really complicates things. Interesting that Colston was a county records keeper for Rappahannock around the same time frame that records are suddenly missing. Hmmmm.... -_-  perhaps there are skeletons in the closet here.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on September 26, 2012, 08:03:00 AM
I know it's really frustrating to get more people to test. No less to get those who tested from 12 to 37 markers. It's almost pointless why 12 marker tests are offered anymore. 37 markers are close, but not good enough. A long wish of mine is that 67 markers become the standard test, but this is not going to happen--not for a long while.

I would love for people who have ancestry from the Northern Neck of Virginia in the 1600s and towards Jamestown to test. Last night I came across the Colston line in Rappahannock County in the Farnham Parish. What are the odds? This family is very strongly connected with the Yeamans line in Bristol during the Civil War. I was quite surprised to come across this information as William Colston (son of the famous Edward Colston) arrived to Rappahannock nearly the same time period as James Yeomans is identified as having arrived by around 1651.

I know what you mean about the frustration when people start their DNA testing or genealogical research and then altogether stop; especially if it's helping you out.

Arch

Thats what I don't understand.. What is the point of doing the test up to 37 markers and then just suddenly stopping and saying your not doing anymore? I explained to him that my little group has been researching and trying to figure out where we came from for the past hundred or so years... And that his dna may hold the key to helping us finally solve this mystery.. I even offered to set up a donation for the testing that is required.. We'll see what happens, hopefully, I can find another male Isaac from this region.. I know there are quite a few walking around there to this day..

I've managed to get him further back in his family tree to a John Isaac of Coldridge, Devonshire who was a Yeoman/Farmer in the region and was born there around 1768. This is really getting interesting for me, since I'm getting ever closer to linking up my Samuel Isaac who had to have been born somewhere near there in the 1680's. They have a long list of Christenings/Baptism's, but they all seem to stop with this John.. I'm thinking he may have been the first to move this region from either a different part of England or maybe even Wales. Its just a hop and a skip to Southern Wales from Devonshire.. Cornwall is also a strong possibility.

I feel your pain in doing Northern Virginia research.. Thats all I've been doing since I got into this little hobby a few years back. If you were not Anglican, your basically out of luck with regards to records being kept. Most were either lost, never kept, or destroyed during the Revoloutionary or Civil war's. Northern Virginia was also home to alot of Dissenters, so that further compounds the problem.

The problem with records being lost or destroyed because of fire is really discouraging. I have two areas of focus, Boston and Rappahnannock County, Virginia where both events happened and of course in the time frames where valuable information is missing. For Boston, it was around the late 1800s and Rappahannock anything before 1650 I think is pretty much destroyed. Of course, being established from Lancaster County and that county from Northumberland County I believe really complicates things. Interesting that Colston was a county records keeper for Rappahannock around the same time frame that records are suddenly missing. Hmmmm.... -_-  perhaps there are skeletons in the closet here.

Arch

It is discouraging at times to know that you may never find info based on such events.. At the same time, it can confirm certain things. When it comes to church records, parish lists and so on, it can give you a better idea of what faith they practiced. Since your not finding any records I'd say your family was likely of dissenter background as well, wasn't it? I've seen parish lists that go way back to some of first settlers arriving in the early 1600's for regions like the Northern Neck. That group kept some good records. Every Anglican parish list I've ever seen for Frederick, Old Orange or Clarke do not include my ancestors. They signed a sort of agreement in which they refuted transubstantiation, but this doesn't say much besides they were protestant. Its like until the 1800's no records were kept for my clan. Then they suddenly appear in the Baptists and Methodist sects.. Kind of funny.. Some of the later church records indicate that one of my relations, Samuel Isaacs, had been kicked out of the church for drinking too much "spirituous liquour" and blaspheming the name of God.. Maybe this is why I can't find anything lol


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on September 26, 2012, 11:07:57 PM
LOL good presumption! Maybe my ancestry is full of pirates, dissenters and outlaws. If I find a connection to Sir John Yeamans, I might not be that far off the mark. LOL! Arggh, me matey!! I do find a few Yeomans and Yeamans in Barbados, some in Jamaica and a few in Antigua and Barbuda. The scary part is how Sir John Yeamans ship, the Hopewell is being sold by a Francis Yeaman(s) in Charlestown, MA and it ends up being signed to an agent of David Kirke (most Quebecois will know who he is). The other scary part is that in Farnham Parish I find William Colston who's lineage is from Bristol. There is a Richard Kirke I believe in Old Rappahannock County. Kinsale, just north of Farnham, which I believe was originally Pharnham was a smuggling haven. They eventually built a fort on the Yeocomico River as it enters the Potomac to protect against pirate ships in the late 1670s. I wonder if FTDNA can do DNA testing on wooden peg legs. LOL.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on September 26, 2012, 11:12:57 PM
Additionally, I was researching the Yeoman line from Dryburgh and Roxburgh up in Scotland and I find the coat of arms quite disturbing. One has a hand throwing a dart against a black background and the heart is bleeding. Reminds me of some pirate flags with spears or darts and hearts bleeding. The other coat of arms has two arrows piercing through the heart. It reminds of skulls and crossbones. Maybe my lineage is closer to around this area with a distant connection to Bristol. I do recall somebody of great importance being involved with Sir Robert Yeamans or William Yeamans, and he was from Scotland. I will have to go back through my Bristol research papers. I'm almost 100% some important figurehead from Scotland was instrumental in assisting the Yeamans family in Bristol.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on September 28, 2012, 01:45:02 AM
I see Isidro finally came in Z198+, which doesn't rule out L147.3.

(It looks like in a bunch of my previous posts I was referring to L147.3 using the wrong SNP number)


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on September 28, 2012, 09:13:25 AM
I see Isidro finally came in Z198+, which doesn't rule out L147.3.

(It looks like in a bunch of my previous posts I was referring to L147.3 using the wrong SNP number)

Wow when I least expected, I just sent FTDNA my address yesterday to get a new test kit...
Soooo ... who is Z198- ?. All this time I thought it was related to L165 but I see that everyone tested is Z198+ including SRY2627 mega branch.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on September 28, 2012, 12:19:55 PM
I see Isidro finally came in Z198+, which doesn't rule out L147.3.

(It looks like in a bunch of my previous posts I was referring to L147.3 using the wrong SNP number)

Wow when I least expected, I just sent FTDNA my address yesterday to get a new test kit...
Soooo ... who is Z198- ?. All this time I thought it was related to L165 but I see that everyone tested is Z198+ including SRY2627 mega branch.

Every L176.2 who tested Z198 has come back positive.  FTDNA labs, according to one of their websites, has tested someone who came back Z198- but we don't know who it is.  I think according to the original researchers into the 1000 Genomes data, they have it placed at the same level L176.2, and not in parallel branches such as Z209/Z220 or DF17.  But that has not been confirmed by FTDNA tests.  If you would have come back Z198-, that would have been newsworthy. 


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on September 29, 2012, 09:15:08 AM
I see Isidro finally came in Z198+, which doesn't rule out L147.3.

(It looks like in a bunch of my previous posts I was referring to L147.3 using the wrong SNP number)

Wow when I least expected, I just sent FTDNA my address yesterday to get a new test kit...
Soooo ... who is Z198- ?. All this time I thought it was related to L165 but I see that everyone tested is Z198+ including SRY2627 mega branch.

Every L176.2 who tested Z198 has come back positive.  FTDNA labs, according to one of their websites, has tested someone who came back Z198- but we don't know who it is.  I think according to the original researchers into the 1000 Genomes data, they have it placed at the same level L176.2, and not in parallel branches such as Z209/Z220 or DF17.  But that has not been confirmed by FTDNA tests.  If you would have come back Z198-, that would have been newsworthy. 

I see, thanks for that information David.It does look like Z198 is between Z196 and L176.2, it will be interesting to find out it's frequency and who knows like so many others L176.2 might become irrelevant and it will go something like (as of today?)P312---DF27----Z196----Z198--- if all 176.2 are Z198+ it is a redundant mark and less accurate than Z198 since some could be - and others +

I had fun for awhile with L176.2 but to be honest it felt like describing a radio station as 176.2 FM

Mon Dieu


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on September 30, 2012, 07:59:30 PM
Additionally, I was researching the Yeoman line from Dryburgh and Roxburgh up in Scotland and I find the coat of arms quite disturbing. One has a hand throwing a dart against a black background and the heart is bleeding. Reminds me of some pirate flags with spears or darts and hearts bleeding. The other coat of arms has two arrows piercing through the heart. It reminds of skulls and crossbones. Maybe my lineage is closer to around this area with a distant connection to Bristol. I do recall somebody of great importance being involved with Sir Robert Yeamans or William Yeamans, and he was from Scotland. I will have to go back through my Bristol research papers. I'm almost 100% some important figurehead from Scotland was instrumental in assisting the Yeamans family in Bristol.

Arch

Weird how things are working out for us. I had long thought my Isaacs were Scottish and you had long thought your Yeomans were English. Seems like things have flip-flopped on us! If your not Scottish and do go back to Bristol then we were essentially neighbors at one time! I'd say we made it up to Southwest England in the same manner as well.

I have finally convinced my cousin to test for us! We're supposed to have something set up and going by this week. He let me in on his family history or rather how we started using the surname Isaac..

"Our  family story is this that our surname originated during or after the Crusade of Richard I (Lion-Heart) in the 1190s and that our farm was bestowed by him in reward of Crusader service.  (I've read that returning crusaders often gave their children Old Testament names to showcase that religious/political service--although my family claims that Richard I personally bestowed the Isaac name.)  When surnames became common in England around 1500, some of those crusader names became censused as surnames."

I find my Isaac crest rather boring! It's a simple gold cross with purple and blue coloring in the background.

http://www.houseofnames.com/isaacs-family-crest

It is pretty cool that the surname was first found in Devon.. Looks like if this guy turns out SRY2627 then I have not only found the old country, I've also found the area of origin for my last name.

Two birds with one stone!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on October 01, 2012, 12:05:11 AM
Additionally, I was researching the Yeoman line from Dryburgh and Roxburgh up in Scotland and I find the coat of arms quite disturbing. One has a hand throwing a dart against a black background and the heart is bleeding. Reminds me of some pirate flags with spears or darts and hearts bleeding. The other coat of arms has two arrows piercing through the heart. It reminds of skulls and crossbones. Maybe my lineage is closer to around this area with a distant connection to Bristol. I do recall somebody of great importance being involved with Sir Robert Yeamans or William Yeamans, and he was from Scotland. I will have to go back through my Bristol research papers. I'm almost 100% some important figurehead from Scotland was instrumental in assisting the Yeamans family in Bristol.

Arch

Weird how things are working out for us. I had long thought my Isaacs were Scottish and you had long thought your Yeomans were English. Seems like things have flip-flopped on us! If your not Scottish and do go back to Bristol then we were essentially neighbors at one time! I'd say we made it up to Southwest England in the same manner as well.

I have finally convinced my cousin to test for us! We're supposed to have something set up and going by this week. He let me in on his family history or rather how we started using the surname Isaac..

"Our  family story is this that our surname originated during or after the Crusade of Richard I (Lion-Heart) in the 1190s and that our farm was bestowed by him in reward of Crusader service.  (I've read that returning crusaders often gave their children Old Testament names to showcase that religious/political service--although my family claims that Richard I personally bestowed the Isaac name.)  When surnames became common in England around 1500, some of those crusader names became censused as surnames."

I find my Isaac crest rather boring! It's a simple gold cross with purple and blue coloring in the background.

http://www.houseofnames.com/isaacs-family-crest

It is pretty cool that the surname was first found in Devon.. Looks like if this guy turns out SRY2627 then I have not only found the old country, I've also found the area of origin for my last name.

Two birds with one stone!

That will be interesting to see the shift from Scotland to Devon. Ironically, this area is supposed to be SRY2627+ rich in comparison to the rest of Britain. I would hope so because that brings the odds up higher for Bristol perhaps. According to House of Names, my surname originated in the West Country of Gloucester. Bristol historically falls within Gloucester and Somerset. Interestingly, I made contact with a Goodall and it looks like she can trace her lineage back to Sir John Yeamans. I know along with the Colstons and Canns, the Goodalls pop up every once in a while. I wish I could convince her to have somebody along her paternal line to test.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on October 01, 2012, 01:36:44 PM
Is there some reason to believe House of Names?  That commercial coat-of-arms peddling stuff seems sort of an intrusion, in what has more typically been a discussion of actual Y-DNA, paper trails, and so on.

That being said, I tend to agree that the SW corner of England, border country with Wales, Bristol Channel etc. probably had more DF27 lines than Scotland, and maybe more than Ireland too.  There aren't enough pins for that (DF27 and subclades) on the map yet to tell, but it looks plausible for some of the subclades, anyhow.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on October 01, 2012, 05:58:38 PM
Is there some reason to believe House of Names?  That commercial coat-of-arms peddling stuff seems sort of an intrusion, in what has more typically been a discussion of actual Y-DNA, paper trails, and so on.

That being said, I tend to agree that the SW corner of England, border country with Wales, Bristol Channel etc. probably had more DF27 lines than Scotland, and maybe more than Ireland too.  There aren't enough pins for that (DF27 and subclades) on the map yet to tell, but it looks plausible for some of the subclades, anyhow.

No, I was just showing Arch what my crest looks like. I don't like the website/company either, but it does have a few bits of useful info. It wasn't the focus of the conversation (until now), so I don't see what the problem is.

Any theories or speculations for DF27 showing up more in these regions? Tin trade with France/Iberia? Gaulish spill over?






Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on October 01, 2012, 07:16:14 PM
Theories, sure.  Tin trade, and the rest of whatever they were trading.  But then I think that applies to most of the earlier DF27 clades.  Whether I'm right remains to be seen; it's just a pattern I think I've observed in some remnant clades that are very distant kin of each other (and don't look at all Iberian).  Others don't think I've observed correctly, and I'm OK with that -- it was a long time ago, and they aren't very close kin to me.  Nor to anybody else now living.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on October 02, 2012, 06:28:13 AM
Additionally, I was researching the Yeoman line from Dryburgh and Roxburgh up in Scotland and I find the coat of arms quite disturbing. One has a hand throwing a dart against a black background and the heart is bleeding. Reminds me of some pirate flags with spears or darts and hearts bleeding. The other coat of arms has two arrows piercing through the heart. It reminds of skulls and crossbones. Maybe my lineage is closer to around this area with a distant connection to Bristol. I do recall somebody of great importance being involved with Sir Robert Yeamans or William Yeamans, and he was from Scotland. I will have to go back through my Bristol research papers. I'm almost 100% some important figurehead from Scotland was instrumental in assisting the Yeamans family in Bristol.

Arch

Weird how things are working out for us. I had long thought my Isaacs were Scottish and you had long thought your Yeomans were English. Seems like things have flip-flopped on us! If your not Scottish and do go back to Bristol then we were essentially neighbors at one time! I'd say we made it up to Southwest England in the same manner as well.

I have finally convinced my cousin to test for us! We're supposed to have something set up and going by this week. He let me in on his family history or rather how we started using the surname Isaac..

"Our  family story is this that our surname originated during or after the Crusade of Richard I (Lion-Heart) in the 1190s and that our farm was bestowed by him in reward of Crusader service.  (I've read that returning crusaders often gave their children Old Testament names to showcase that religious/political service--although my family claims that Richard I personally bestowed the Isaac name.)  When surnames became common in England around 1500, some of those crusader names became censused as surnames."

I find my Isaac crest rather boring! It's a simple gold cross with purple and blue coloring in the background.

http://www.houseofnames.com/isaacs-family-crest

It is pretty cool that the surname was first found in Devon.. Looks like if this guy turns out SRY2627 then I have not only found the old country, I've also found the area of origin for my last name.

Two birds with one stone!

That will be interesting to see the shift from Scotland to Devon. Ironically, this area is supposed to be SRY2627+ rich in comparison to the rest of Britain. I would hope so because that brings the odds up higher for Bristol perhaps. According to House of Names, my surname originated in the West Country of Gloucester. Bristol historically falls within Gloucester and Somerset. Interestingly, I made contact with a Goodall and it looks like she can trace her lineage back to Sir John Yeamans. I know along with the Colstons and Canns, the Goodalls pop up every once in a while. I wish I could convince her to have somebody along her paternal line to test.

Arch

I've always heard that too, that Southwest England is rich in M167. I was casually browsing through some of the projects that have English SRY2627 earlier today.. And most of the people who could report an ancestral location were reporting Western and Southwestern Counties. I'm wondering what the distribution of DF27/SRY2627 would be in Wales? Seems fair to reason that it would be a bit high.. Well high for this scattered, singleton percentage group.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on October 04, 2012, 12:00:45 PM
I think Razyn has a point about DF27 older clades (Z196 and L176+) traveling together, I would include also surviving P312* and some odd older clades.

I see no logic in thinking that once we find a P312* or Z196*or L176.2* that they split into another tribe with a different movement and dispersal areas.

I think all these R1b as a group traveled together (as part of the totally ignored other haplogroups that are not R1b) and they seem old enough to have done it 1000BC or earlier.
If we  ignore the L176.2+ frequency hot spot areas as irrelevant to locate ancient movement patterns we find L176.2+ with  low percentages across Europe but quite spread which it could be a sign that it spread with some major sister early clades mentioned above.

My guess is that DF27+ canvas is Atlantic and L21 and U152 still unclear but it must have been related to P312. Also U106 origins is a puzzle but looking for meaning of all the R1b clades in Europe to an obscure departure point and expansion route that justifies the spread of IE language is weak. I see no one tracing Iberian Language or Basque language traveling inland Europe, only Italo-Celtic...

Another angle about the population and growth of cities in Europe I would like to see finds that claim a European North-South  spread of cities, forts,metal ores you name it....

Nothing I can see in Europe points a North South significant movements both cultural and demographic until the fall of The Roman Empire.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on October 07, 2012, 12:26:43 PM
Since the discovery of this new connection to Devonshire, I have opened up to alot of different possibilities for my Y-line.

I've been studying my family crest/coat of arms and have taken particular note of the Golden Fleury Cross which adorns it. This particular Cross type is often found in French Heraldry. The cross seems to represent either Crusader service, which my Devonshire cousins seem to believe it means, or it may represent Norman ancestry.

I'm reading with particular interest about the De Cusack family of Aquitaine.. Which were apart of the Norman Invasions of England and Ireland. Though it seems the name in its original form has died out in England. That doesn't rule out the possibilty of the name being anglicised to De Isaac and then just Isaac. I've also read casual mention of a De Isaac, Norman lord, being in England. Though there is nothing to substaniate this.

Either option seems likely to me, but when factoring in that the line is SRY2627 it becomes all the more tempting to associate it with the Norman De Cusacks. 


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on October 10, 2012, 10:35:30 AM
I was browsing the SRY2627 wikipedia page today and noticed that another study had been conducted on SRY2627 in 2012. I've either read it and forgot about it already or it was just recently published!

Either way, I noticed one of the new regions (La Rioja) with a relatively high ammount is not being displayed on the map provided. Infact, it is left as blank! When in actuality, it is showing 15 percent for the subclade.

"A 2012 study by Martinez-Cruz et al. found the following percentages of SRY2627: 7% in the three French departments of the Pays de Basque, 16% in Bearn, 14% in Bigorre, 7% in Chalosse, 6% in the Basque regions of Spain, 15% in La Rioja, and 19% in northern Aragon."

Of this, two issues have come to mind. The map needs to be updated with this new information; The French need to drop their ridiculous law against genetic testing for genealogical purposes!



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on October 16, 2012, 12:28:44 PM
I may have made another major breakthrough in my genealogical quest. I've discovered two possible sources for my Isaack family of Devon..

http://books.google.com/books?id=GmqlIibS95IC&pg=PA501&lpg=PA501&dq=Isacke+of+Polslowe&source=bl&ots=whMsJ5W4hJ&sig=rKdRPpF0DFIK164Fd0UwUV7wkXw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jRh7UJS4H_SI2gWPv4CQDw&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Isacke%20of%20Polslowe&f=false

The first pedigree listed for the Isacke of Polslowe is the one that would make sense from a geographical standpoint. As it is within Exeter, whereas the second Isack of Buryott is in the northern province of the county.

For the Isacke of Polslowe there are numerous Samuel's in that family tree. One of which may be my Samuel Isaack. He was baptised in June of 1693, which I'm assuming means he was born in 1692 as they often waited a year before the baptism.. unless I'm mistaken. This Samuel is shown as a dead-end, which I'm thinking means that he simply left and no more records of his life could be kept. This is a perfect fit for our group.. as the old family lore on my side of the family, has always had his birthdate anywhere from the 1680's to the 1690's.

On down the pedigree, where I believe my newly found cousin would appear, is littered with Williams and Johns.. which are commonplace for his branch. These are much later down the tree and fall into the same time period where his branch is currently brickwalled.

What's really interesting about this group is that their ancestry isn't Devon based, rather it is out of Kent. The surname is Patronymic, in that it derives from an Isacke of Polslowe.

Another bit of info I'm wondering about.. There is a Johannes Isaack listed as being the son of the Isaack of polslowe.. I'm wondering if this signifies some sort of Germanic ancestry? I know Johannes is the latin form of John.. but from what I've seen of it, it seems that it is particularly popular amongst the northern germanic groups of the time. The name Erasmus also appears early on in the pedigree, which from what I gather is/was also popular in Nordic regions.

From what I understand the Jutes held a kingdom in eastern Kent.. I dunno, maybe I'm reading too much into all of this! An interesting possibility none the less.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on October 16, 2012, 01:11:34 PM
Wrong location. nevermind!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on October 26, 2012, 04:53:01 AM
At least you can eliminate. I keep an Excel database of all the surname genealogies I came across, even if I find no relation afterwards. It helps to cross off the ones that don't match what you're looking for because you will run into them several times through other lines. Maybe that's the thrill of genealogy is finding those possibilities and eliminating them one-by-one when its confirmed there is no connection to your lineage; to me its frustrating and disappointing at times. Keep the faith, at least you have the science of DNA to back you up.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on October 26, 2012, 04:56:20 AM
I was browsing the SRY2627 wikipedia page today and noticed that another study had been conducted on SRY2627 in 2012. I've either read it and forgot about it already or it was just recently published!

Either way, I noticed one of the new regions (La Rioja) with a relatively high ammount is not being displayed on the map provided. Infact, it is left as blank! When in actuality, it is showing 15 percent for the subclade.

"A 2012 study by Martinez-Cruz et al. found the following percentages of SRY2627: 7% in the three French departments of the Pays de Basque, 16% in Bearn, 14% in Bigorre, 7% in Chalosse, 6% in the Basque regions of Spain, 15% in La Rioja, and 19% in northern Aragon."

Of this, two issues have come to mind. The map needs to be updated with this new information; The French need to drop their ridiculous law against genetic testing for genealogical purposes!



I think its a later study that pulled in data from an earlier paper. I've been out of the country for a few weeks and will have dig around through some materials. If I'm not mistaken, the University of Toulouse is doing a major study on Pyrenean populations--hopefully this research will validate the earlier studies.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on October 26, 2012, 05:00:06 AM
I think Razyn has a point about DF27 older clades (Z196 and L176+) traveling together, I would include also surviving P312* and some odd older clades.

I see no logic in thinking that once we find a P312* or Z196*or L176.2* that they split into another tribe with a different movement and dispersal areas.

I think all these R1b as a group traveled together (as part of the totally ignored other haplogroups that are not R1b) and they seem old enough to have done it 1000BC or earlier.
If we  ignore the L176.2+ frequency hot spot areas as irrelevant to locate ancient movement patterns we find L176.2+ with  low percentages across Europe but quite spread which it could be a sign that it spread with some major sister early clades mentioned above.

My guess is that DF27+ canvas is Atlantic and L21 and U152 still unclear but it must have been related to P312. Also U106 origins is a puzzle but looking for meaning of all the R1b clades in Europe to an obscure departure point and expansion route that justifies the spread of IE language is weak. I see no one tracing Iberian Language or Basque language traveling inland Europe, only Italo-Celtic...

Another angle about the population and growth of cities in Europe I would like to see finds that claim a European North-South  spread of cities, forts,metal ores you name it....

Nothing I can see in Europe points a North South significant movements both cultural and demographic until the fall of The Roman Empire.

Maybe I'm seeing it differently. Bell Beaker from Iberia, spreading northwards up the Atlantic coastline and upwards through the Rhone Valley. Urnfield Culture definitely seems to be north-south from Central Europe into Northern Iberia (mostly Catalonia and Aragon).

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on October 26, 2012, 11:35:14 AM
I was browsing the SRY2627 wikipedia page today and noticed that another study had been conducted on SRY2627 in 2012. I've either read it and forgot about it already or it was just recently published!

Either way, I noticed one of the new regions (La Rioja) with a relatively high ammount is not being displayed on the map provided. Infact, it is left as blank! When in actuality, it is showing 15 percent for the subclade.

"A 2012 study by Martinez-Cruz et al. found the following percentages of SRY2627: 7% in the three French departments of the Pays de Basque, 16% in Bearn, 14% in Bigorre, 7% in Chalosse, 6% in the Basque regions of Spain, 15% in La Rioja, and 19% in northern Aragon."

Of this, two issues have come to mind. The map needs to be updated with this new information; The French need to drop their ridiculous law against genetic testing for genealogical purposes!



The quote from the Wikipedia article above was added after the map had been posted, so that is why the map is not updated.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on October 26, 2012, 02:42:22 PM
At least you can eliminate. I keep an Excel database of all the surname genealogies I came across, even if I find no relation afterwards. It helps to cross off the ones that don't match what you're looking for because you will run into them several times through other lines. Maybe that's the thrill of genealogy is finding those possibilities and eliminating them one-by-one when its confirmed there is no connection to your lineage; to me its frustrating and disappointing at times. Keep the faith, at least you have the science of DNA to back you up.

Arch

I do something to the extent of keeping files of possible lineages.. Well, I write down specific names here and there and its somewhat scattered lol.. But thats just my process. I'm sort of lucky in that there aren't too many Isaac families out there.. I can, as you say, eliminate and widdle it down quite a bit. Though I'm nearly positive this Isacke of Polslowe is my guy. On the dna thing, I figured instead doing the deep-clade thing, that it would be more cost efficient to just test for SRY2627 and be done with it. Thanks for the encouragement, Arch. Good luck to you as well.. You'll get there someday.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on October 26, 2012, 02:47:26 PM
I was browsing the SRY2627 wikipedia page today and noticed that another study had been conducted on SRY2627 in 2012. I've either read it and forgot about it already or it was just recently published!

Either way, I noticed one of the new regions (La Rioja) with a relatively high ammount is not being displayed on the map provided. Infact, it is left as blank! When in actuality, it is showing 15 percent for the subclade.

"A 2012 study by Martinez-Cruz et al. found the following percentages of SRY2627: 7% in the three French departments of the Pays de Basque, 16% in Bearn, 14% in Bigorre, 7% in Chalosse, 6% in the Basque regions of Spain, 15% in La Rioja, and 19% in northern Aragon."

Of this, two issues have come to mind. The map needs to be updated with this new information; The French need to drop their ridiculous law against genetic testing for genealogical purposes!



The quote from the Wikipedia article above was added after the map had been posted, so that is why the map is not updated.

I know, that was just my subtle way of complaining about the lack of discussion and focus on SRY2627. I was spoiled early on because we were the only DF27 clade besides M153 and its starting to show that we aren't as significant as we once were.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on October 26, 2012, 08:29:04 PM
I think Razyn has a point about DF27 older clades (Z196 and L176+) traveling together, I would include also surviving P312* and some odd older clades.

I see no logic in thinking that once we find a P312* or Z196*or L176.2* that they split into another tribe with a different movement and dispersal areas.

I think all these R1b as a group traveled together (as part of the totally ignored other haplogroups that are not R1b) and they seem old enough to have done it 1000BC or earlier.
If we  ignore the L176.2+ frequency hot spot areas as irrelevant to locate ancient movement patterns we find L176.2+ with  low percentages across Europe but quite spread which it could be a sign that it spread with some major sister early clades mentioned above.

My guess is that DF27+ canvas is Atlantic and L21 and U152 still unclear but it must have been related to P312. Also U106 origins is a puzzle but looking for meaning of all the R1b clades in Europe to an obscure departure point and expansion route that justifies the spread of IE language is weak. I see no one tracing Iberian Language or Basque language traveling inland Europe, only Italo-Celtic...

Another angle about the population and growth of cities in Europe I would like to see finds that claim a European North-South  spread of cities, forts,metal ores you name it....

Nothing I can see in Europe points a North South significant movements both cultural and demographic until the fall of The Roman Empire.

Maybe I'm seeing it differently. Bell Beaker from Iberia, spreading northwards up the Atlantic coastline and upwards through the Rhone Valley. Urnfield Culture definitely seems to be north-south from Central Europe into Northern Iberia (mostly Catalonia and Aragon).

Arch

I should not write things so categorically and with more precision;I meant to say "nothing I can see in Europe points  the arrival of R1b in Iberia coming north of the Pyrenees".
I am not sure about the Bell Beakers, I think it's becoming some kind of a construct with too many complex findings across the Continent to call it people expanding in one direction. Way too complex for me to see anything clear.

Do you think SRY2627 is associated with the movements of U152 more than other DF27 branches ? based on frequency found so far.My train of thought is that if it is found very scattered all over  it couldn't be that young, although a small size branch is scattered.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on November 25, 2012, 02:41:11 AM
The family organization has decided to go for the Geno 2.0 test for my cousin's kit, which is Z262.  I can see from the preliminary reports of which paternal SNPs are included in the test, that there are 10 SNPs near Z262 and SRY2627 which will be resolved for that kit by taking the test.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on December 05, 2012, 03:12:50 AM
10 SNPs? That should be interesting.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on December 10, 2012, 02:47:06 PM
My Geno 2.0 results, which arrived this morning, reveal the presence of a new SNP, designated as CTS4299, downstream from SRY2627+.

I will post more information about CTS4299 as soon as possible after more information arrives about it.

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on December 10, 2012, 05:17:15 PM
Over in U106, this is what we've found:

Earlier Female Kit:  154,611 total SNPs, 12,438 empty Y-SNPs, 336 non-Y no-calls,
Charles:     154,476 total SNPs, 12,316 Y-SNPs, 347 total no-calls, 66 Y no-calls
Ray:     154,476 total SNPs, 12,316 Y-SNPs, 431 total no-calls, 67 Y no-calls

So there is a reduction in the total amount of SNPs and Y-SNPs being reported since the first kit data was released.

And there are at least three kinds of no-calls, "I", "D" and "-"

Edit:  I'm informed my no-call count includes Deletes and Insertions, and that the dash is the only real no-call.  I'll have to redo my count when I get a chance.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on December 13, 2012, 08:19:43 PM
There are three kits in the SRY2627 project, SRY2627+, that have Geno 2.0 results.  There are so many SNPs common to 154890 and 5185 but not in 97633 that it seems to be more of a reporting problem than an actual difference, so I'm not mentioning those.  There seems to be a similar problem in U106.  Other differences are:

154890   (NO CTS4299+) (NO M173+)        M269+  (NO P25+)        PF742+  (NO Z207+)
5185       (NO CTS4299+) (NO M173+) (NO M269+)        P25+  (NO PF742+)        Z207+
97633            CTS4299+         M173+         M269+         P25+  (NO PF742+)        Z207+

It looks like Z262 causes a false positive in the Geno 2.0 chip results and is not being reported.  The Z207+ and P25+ common to the second two kits seems to put them in the same branch, with the last kit having a further SNP at CTS4299+.  The top kit also has a unique SNP at PF742+.  The M269+ doesn't fit the pattern, and may be a false reading.  Just guessing.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on December 21, 2012, 10:28:08 PM
There are three kits in the SRY2627 project, SRY2627+, that have Geno 2.0 results.  There are so many SNPs common to 154890 and 5185 but not in 97633 that it seems to be more of a reporting problem than an actual difference, so I'm not mentioning those.  There seems to be a similar problem in U106.  Other differences are:

154890   (NO CTS4299+) (NO M173+)        M269+  (NO P25+)        PF742+  (NO Z207+)
5185       (NO CTS4299+) (NO M173+) (NO M269+)        P25+  (NO PF742+)        Z207+
97633            CTS4299+         M173+         M269+         P25+  (NO PF742+)        Z207+

It looks like Z262 causes a false positive in the Geno 2.0 chip results and is not being reported.  The Z207+ and P25+ common to the second two kits seems to put them in the same branch, with the last kit having a further SNP at CTS4299+.  The top kit also has a unique SNP at PF742+.  The M269+ doesn't fit the pattern, and may be a false reading.  Just guessing.

I was just comparing kit 97633 raw data with the FTDNA upload, and found that three of the SNPs I listed above are absent from the raw data, namely M173, M269 and P25.  They are still listed in the FTDNA upload.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on December 30, 2012, 03:58:24 AM
I was wondering if upgrading to the Gene 2.0 of the Genographic Project is worth it. I participated in the first run, but I am completely unsure what benefit I would gain or additional knowledge could be learned from participating again.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on December 30, 2012, 10:33:00 AM
I was wondering if upgrading to the Gene 2.0 of the Genographic Project is worth it. I participated in the first run, but I am completely unsure what benefit I would gain or additional knowledge could be learned from participating again.

Arch

Arch -

If you upgrade to Geno 2.0, you will see your R-L659+ SNP. You ask what additional knowledge could be learned by your participation in the Geno 2.0 project. Let me answer your question by first mentioning that I have the following derived SNPs that are downstream from R-P312, according to Geno 2.0: Z195+, Z198+ through Z205+, Z207+, Z264+, Z266+, Z269+, and CTS4299+ (my new terminal SNP). My raw data file tells me that I have Z262+. Geno 2.0 did not test DF27, Z196, L176.2, Z206, Z276, P312, Z263, Z265, and Z267. Z207+ is downstream from all the derived SNPs that I mentioned except for CTS4299+. (By the way, CTS4299+ also appears in the Geno 2.0 Y-SNP results of someone who traces his paternal line to northeastern Spain.)

In FTDNA's SRY2627+ haplogroup project, I now know that cluster A0 (your haplotype is in that cluster) has one known Z207+ member and one known Z207- member.

Your participation in the Gen0 2.0 project will assist with determining the placement of my derived SNPs (you might have some of those derived SNPs) with respect to SRY2627+.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on December 30, 2012, 06:50:47 PM
I was wondering if upgrading to the Gene 2.0 of the Genographic Project is worth it. I participated in the first run, but I am completely unsure what benefit I would gain or additional knowledge could be learned from participating again.

Arch

I'm waiting for data from two Geno 2.0 kits, my brother's U106 kit, and my cousin's L176.2/Z262 kit.  Realistically, my brother's U106 kit won't really be worth it, because he's already tested at 23andme, so we know things about his deep ancestry and his mtDNA.  The thing that would make it worth it is if we find an unexpected SNP that links us to someone else in the group.

My cousin's Z262 will be worth it because it will answer questions about 10 known SNPs near SRY2627, both about his kit specifically, and about those SNP's relationship to SRY2627 generally. 

But the Z262 test on the Geno 2.0 chip has failed, as everyone in U106 and L21 and Steve's SRY2627 kit have all come back Z262+.  We already know Steve is Z262+ because he's SRY2627, but the others shouldn't be Z262+. 

If anyone has Geno 2.0 raw data who's in the Z196 region and who would like to share their data, I'd appreciate it if they would email it to me so I could compare it programmatically with other similar data, and with my Z262 kit when it comes in.  I've done that with a lot of U106 kits, and occasionally something unexpected turns up that doesn't appear in the FTDNA transfers.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on December 30, 2012, 07:20:19 PM
I was wondering if upgrading to the Gene 2.0 of the Genographic Project is worth it. I participated in the first run, but I am completely unsure what benefit I would gain or additional knowledge could be learned from participating again.

Arch

Arch -

If you upgrade to Geno 2.0, you will see your R-L659+ SNP. You ask what additional knowledge could be learned by your participation in the Geno 2.0 project. Let me answer your question by first mentioning that I have the following derived SNPs that are downstream from R-P312, according to Geno 2.0: Z195+, Z198+ through Z205+, Z207+, Z264+, Z266+, Z269+, and CTS4299+ (my new terminal SNP). My raw data file tells me that I have Z262+. Geno 2.0 did not test DF27, Z196, L176.2, Z206, Z276, P312, Z263, Z265, and Z267. Z207+ is downstream from all the derived SNPs that I mentioned except for CTS4299+. (By the way, CTS4299+ also appears in the Geno 2.0 Y-SNP results of someone who traces his paternal line to northeastern Spain.)

In FTDNA's SRY2627+ haplogroup project, I now know that cluster A0 (your haplotype is in that cluster) has one known Z207+ member and one known Z207- member.

Your participation in the Gen0 2.0 project will assist with determining the placement of my derived SNPs (you might have some of those derived SNPs) with respect to SRY2627+.

Now that I have determined the 67 to 111 STR upgrade is not worth it for me since I already tested for most of the markers. Matter of fact it would be less expensive to order from the ala carte menu at around $160.00 for the 16 markers I need to test for at roughly $10. per STR. Maybe this Geno 2.0 is the better option. Is there a 'dis-count' for previous participants in the Genographic Project?

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on December 30, 2012, 07:23:13 PM
That is weird the word "" does not show up on my text message. I tried editing and nothing. Is this a glitch?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on December 30, 2012, 07:27:02 PM
That is weird the word "" does not show up on my text message. I tried editing and nothing. Is this a glitch?

It might be due to filtering out information thought to be related to online scams.  I know there used to be a ... for previous participants, but I'm not sure if it is still in effect.  You should email them about it if you're interested.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on December 30, 2012, 08:17:36 PM
I was wondering if upgrading to the Gene 2.0 of the Genographic Project is worth it. I participated in the first run, but I am completely unsure what benefit I would gain or additional knowledge could be learned from participating again.

Arch

Arch -

A 67 to 111 marker upgrade costs $ 109 if it is ordered by midnight Central Standard Time tomorrow evening.

Stephen

If you upgrade to Geno 2.0, you will see your R-L659+ SNP. You ask what additional knowledge could be learned by your participation in the Geno 2.0 project. Let me answer your question by first mentioning that I have the following derived SNPs that are downstream from R-P312, according to Geno 2.0: Z195+, Z198+ through Z205+, Z207+, Z264+, Z266+, Z269+, and CTS4299+ (my new terminal SNP). My raw data file tells me that I have Z262+. Geno 2.0 did not test DF27, Z196, L176.2, Z206, Z276, P312, Z263, Z265, and Z267. Z207+ is downstream from all the derived SNPs that I mentioned except for CTS4299+. (By the way, CTS4299+ also appears in the Geno 2.0 Y-SNP results of someone who traces his paternal line to northeastern Spain.)

In FTDNA's SRY2627+ haplogroup project, I now know that cluster A0 (your haplotype is in that cluster) has one known Z207+ member and one known Z207- member.

Your participation in the Gen0 2.0 project will assist with determining the placement of my derived SNPs (you might have some of those derived SNPs) with respect to SRY2627+.

Now that I have determined the 67 to 111 STR upgrade is not worth it for me since I already tested for most of the markers. Matter of fact it would be less expensive to order from the ala carte menu at around $160.00 for the 16 markers I need to test for at roughly $10. per STR. Maybe this Geno 2.0 is the better option. Is there a 'dis-count' for previous participants in the Genographic Project?

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on January 01, 2013, 01:20:55 AM
Okay. I re-evaluated the costs and it would actually save me money to do the upgrade to 111 markers, so I did it and so that I can be done with the extensive testing once and for all--yeah right. As far as the Gene2.0 project, it looks like it wouldn't offer much more in comparison to what I get with 23andMe as to how much Northern European, etc. I am. Also, I have been convinced for a long time that I have Neandertal blood lines. If Gene2.0 comes down to a more reasonable price and if they offer more, then I would reconsider it. So for now, here I wait for the 111 marker results. Yay!!! I think 111 is a pretty high resolution and should be good for the next thousand years.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: AlexGarna on January 03, 2013, 05:37:05 PM
Hi Everyone, All of you have probably seen my results in other pages. I have Kit number N14866 and recently received Geno 2.0 Results. So, I'm baffled...the results state that my YDNA is SRY2627+ and R-CTS8289+

Can anyone shed some light on R-CTS8289?

Thank You!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: DavidCar on January 03, 2013, 05:50:36 PM
Hi Everyone, All of you have probably seen my results in other pages. I have Kit number N14866 and recently received Geno 2.0 Results. So, I'm baffled...the results state that my YDNA is SRY2627+ and R-CTS8289+

Can anyone shed some light on R-CTS8289?

Thank You!

Send me your zipped raw results and I'll analyze them in comparison with some other P312 kits.  CTS8289 plus some other CTS snps have appeared in some SRY2627+ kits.

Follow the discussion at:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-P312-Project/messages


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on January 03, 2013, 06:46:04 PM
Hi Everyone, All of you have probably seen my results in other pages. I have Kit number N14866 and recently received Geno 2.0 Results. So, I'm baffled...the results state that my YDNA is SRY2627+ and R-CTS8289+

Can anyone shed some light on R-CTS8289?

Thank You!

Alex -

According to Geno 2.0, what is your terminal SNP?

To answer your question concerning R-CTS8289+, it is a recently discovered derived SNP. Its placement with respect to SRY2627+ has not been determined.

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: AlexGarna on January 03, 2013, 06:48:39 PM
The Terminal SNP is R-CTS8289+

I'm trying to get this data from Genographic P:

    My primary question is is there any additional information regarding R-CTS8289?
    How many other participants are positive for this subclade?
    When was this subclade discovered?
    Does this sublcalde have a different nomenclature within ISOGG Tree?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on January 04, 2013, 09:39:14 AM
The Terminal SNP is R-CTS8289+

I'm trying to get this data from Genographic P:

    My primary question is is there any additional information regarding R-CTS8289?
    How many other participants are positive for this subclade?
    When was this subclade discovered?
    Does this sublcalde have a different nomenclature within ISOGG Tree?


Alex -

Thank you for your very helpful reply. Knowing that your terminal SNP is CTS8289+ and knowing that two of my derived SNPs are CTS8289+ and Z207+ (you appear to have Z207-, the ancestral form of that SNP), I discern that CTS8289+ is downstream from SRY2627+ and upstream from Z207+.

CTS8299+ has not been added to ISOGG's haplotree, which will undergo considerable revision in months to come.

If I am guessing correctly, the CTS series of SNPs was discovered in the past year in at least one 1000 Genomes Project participant.

What is your National Geographic haplogroup designation? Mine is R1B1A1CDA1B1A.

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on January 16, 2013, 12:33:16 AM
Okay. This may be a stretch, but nonetheless I will stick it in the fire to stoke up the coals and see what comes forth. Why are the mountain peaks in Northern Wales near Snowdonia called the Arans? Also, why is there an Arran Island in Scotland and Aran Islands in Ireland? What meaning do they have? I've heard that it means bread, but that seems way far fetched. Anybody good at ancient Brittonic languages? Aran toponym variants also pop up in Andorra. I have yet to find variants elsewhere besides in the Basque Country as Haran but its just odd that such a word exists only in one other region specifically around the Northern British Islands. Late edit: Also there is Arran in Ancient Albania what is now a part of northern Azerbaijan region. How interesting. The biblical definition means either "Ark" or "goat", not sure. A variant is perhaps cedar or fir (eron or something similar). I think the Brythonic definition may mean "high place". I think that makes sense based on prefix ar- using meaning before, older, supreme, or higher. The obvious reason why I bring this up is because of the Aran valley. Maybe its related to a pre-Indo-European language that is much older than Basque or that Basque takes Haran from an older non-PIE language that perhaps arrived to Iberia long before the Celts did.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on January 23, 2013, 12:23:15 AM
So with P312/S116, DF27, Z196, L176.2, Z262 and brother clade L165, what have we learned from these and how it relates to SRY2627's geographical distribution? I have yet to see anything useful come from Z262 and of course L165 has the Scandinavian and Scotland slant to it. L176.2 seems hard to pinpoint because its scattered all over Western Europe. DF27 does open up something unique in that appeared to be found mostly in Iberians (though I'm sure its not exclusive to them). Well, P312/S116 is what it is, everywhere. I just hope we have enough data to make a sort of judgment call that SRY2627 is either Pre-Pyrenean or Sub-Pyrenean or not. The variance seems high both north and mostly south of the Pyrenees itself. Of course its variance jumps from place to place (it can never be easy I suppose). Hopefully we might benefit from more studies with extended haplotypes in the near future to validate the earlier papers or to refute them once and for all. The debate of DYS490=10 and DYS490=12 doesn't seem to have much steam, at least not enough for it to split SRY2627 in half. I think for the most part, I'm looking for updates and new studies. So far I've been supportive of most of the Iberian studies for this subclade and over the many years the later studies have validated virtually all the earlier studies (which would seem to indicate something). The 2012 published study of showing SRY2627 shows the presence of this subclade strongly within the Pyrenees and its immediate environs. Should we really be looking to north in the Western Alps for origins or perhaps south in places like Alicante? Or is the Pyrenees still the most viable option for now?

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on January 27, 2013, 01:02:38 AM
So with P312/S116, DF27, Z196, L176.2, Z262 and brother clade L165, what have we learned from these and how it relates to SRY2627's geographical distribution? I have yet to see anything useful come from Z262 and of course L165 has the Scandinavian and Scotland slant to it. L176.2 seems hard to pinpoint because its scattered all over Western Europe. DF27 does open up something unique in that appeared to be found mostly in Iberians (though I'm sure its not exclusive to them). Well, P312/S116 is what it is, everywhere. I just hope we have enough data to make a sort of judgment call that SRY2627 is either Pre-Pyrenean or Sub-Pyrenean or not. The variance seems high both north and mostly south of the Pyrenees itself. Of course its variance jumps from place to place (it can never be easy I suppose). Hopefully we might benefit from more studies with extended haplotypes in the near future to validate the earlier papers or to refute them once and for all. The debate of DYS490=10 and DYS490=12 doesn't seem to have much steam, at least not enough for it to split SRY2627 in half. I think for the most part, I'm looking for updates and new studies. So far I've been supportive of most of the Iberian studies for this subclade and over the many years the later studies have validated virtually all the earlier studies (which would seem to indicate something). The 2012 published study of showing SRY2627 shows the presence of this subclade strongly within the Pyrenees and its immediate environs. Should we really be looking to north in the Western Alps for origins or perhaps south in places like Alicante? Or is the Pyrenees still the most viable option for now?

Arch

I think we can lay those old papers to rest with regards to origin theories. Do they show us where subclades of DF27 ended up? Of course, but they hardly tell us anything other than modern frequencies. While SRY2627 may have had origins in or near the Pyrenees, I seriously doubt that it happened further south of the mounation range. So I don't  the Pyrenees as a place of origin, but I wouldn't go further south either.

Iberia has long struck me as a pooling point for P312, not an expansion point. Though I don't necessarily agree with the idea that P312's descendants occured on their way to their modern frequency zones. That seems to be an idea held in high regard with the L21 crowd if you ask me. Never quite understood that one. At least with regards for a need to have been an aboriginal subclade within the Isles.

Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc".


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on January 27, 2013, 06:09:43 AM


I think we can lay those old papers to rest with regards to origin theories. Do they show us where subclades of DF27 ended up? Of course, but they hardly tell us anything other than modern frequencies. While SRY2627 may have had origins in or near the Pyrenees, I seriously doubt that it happened further south of the mounation range. So I don't  the Pyrenees as a place of origin, but I wouldn't go further south either.

Iberia has long struck me as a pooling point for P312, not an expansion point. Though I don't necessarily agree with the idea that P312's descendants occured on their way to their modern frequency zones. That seems to be an idea held in high regard with the L21 crowd if you ask me. Never quite understood that one. At least with regards for a need to have been an aboriginal subclade within the Isles.

Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc".
[/quote]

My understanding is that DF27 is primarily Iberian (not exclusively of course) and though L176.2 is kind of everywhere, we do have it in Iberia. Then of course, Z262 just throws everything off along with the brother clade of L165 which points to Scotland with Norse ancestry. The diversity and variance issues will surface up here and there but Iberia outside the Pyrenees contains some pretty good variance and what strikes me as odd is how that variance really drops in France. I'm more inclined to think the expansion of the Roman Empire had to possibly do with the spread of this subclade. It's high frequency in Liebana nearest the battlefields of the "Fiery Wars" where at least 5-6 legions were involved. Of course, we have Tarragona (Tarraco) and Empuries in modern day Catalonia that were the Romans entered at started to establish Hispania Citerior and Ulterior. Obviously Tarrco was of great importance and it connects with the Ilergetes and that of Celtiberians during the siege of Numantia. Those older studies have been consistent in validating each other's findings and so I am quite reluctant to refute the data points especially when other papers support the high presence of upstream subclades in Iberia with some high frequency. I am not so sure if SRY2627 is Iberian, Celtiberian, but it doesn't seem to be Iberian Celt. The further south we go into Iberia, would seem to show a higher diversity and the closer it gets to Corduba and Huelva, the closer it gets to Tartessian. Back to the Romans, I remember a while ago there was a paper pondering the possibility that SRY2627's presence in the Liebana (near the famous Covadonga, which a launching point of the Reconquista of Spain) could be Visigothic, Roman, and perhaps the presence of SRY2627 in Britain itself is related to Basque fishermen. Visigothic is tempting, but the Romans are more closer as there is a connection to Iberians. Also, I still to this day find it odd how we can get physical descriptions of the Silures and how they compare to Hispania. Is it possible the Silures are a late arrival to Britain just before the Romans? These people apparently look different enough from the others that they warrant mention. I am okay with Iberian, Celtiberian, or even Silurian; it's not a matter of cultural preference as it is a matter of pinpointing possible geographic origins.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on January 27, 2013, 04:41:37 PM


I think we can lay those old papers to rest with regards to origin theories. Do they show us where subclades of DF27 ended up? Of course, but they hardly tell us anything other than modern frequencies. While SRY2627 may have had origins in or near the Pyrenees, I seriously doubt that it happened further south of the mounation range. So I don't  the Pyrenees as a place of origin, but I wouldn't go further south either.

Iberia has long struck me as a pooling point for P312, not an expansion point. Though I don't necessarily agree with the idea that P312's descendants occured on their way to their modern frequency zones. That seems to be an idea held in high regard with the L21 crowd if you ask me. Never quite understood that one. At least with regards for a need to have been an aboriginal subclade within the Isles.

Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc".

My understanding is that DF27 is primarily Iberian (not exclusively of course) and though L176.2 is kind of everywhere, we do have it in Iberia. Then of course, Z262 just throws everything off along with the brother clade of L165 which points to Scotland with Norse ancestry. The diversity and variance issues will surface up here and there but Iberia outside the Pyrenees contains some pretty good variance and what strikes me as odd is how that variance really drops in France. I'm more inclined to think the expansion of the Roman Empire had to possibly do with the spread of this subclade. It's high frequency in Liebana nearest the battlefields of the "Fiery Wars" where at least 5-6 legions were involved. Of course, we have Tarragona (Tarraco) and Empuries in modern day Catalonia that were the Romans entered at started to establish Hispania Citerior and Ulterior. Obviously Tarrco was of great importance and it connects with the Ilergetes and that of Celtiberians during the siege of Numantia. Those older studies have been consistent in validating each other's findings and so I am quite reluctant to refute the data points especially when other papers support the high presence of upstream subclades in Iberia with some high frequency. I am not so sure if SRY2627 is Iberian, Celtiberian, but it doesn't seem to be Iberian Celt. The further south we go into Iberia, would seem to show a higher diversity and the closer it gets to Corduba and Huelva, the closer it gets to Tartessian. Back to the Romans, I remember a while ago there was a paper pondering the possibility that SRY2627's presence in the Liebana (near the famous Covadonga, which a launching point of the Reconquista of Spain) could be Visigothic, Roman, and perhaps the presence of SRY2627 in Britain itself is related to Basque fishermen. Visigothic is tempting, but the Romans are more closer as there is a connection to Iberians. Also, I still to this day find it odd how we can get physical descriptions of the Silures and how they compare to Hispania. Is it possible the Silures are a late arrival to Britain just before the Romans? These people apparently look different enough from the others that they warrant mention. I am okay with Iberian, Celtiberian, or even Silurian; it's not a matter of cultural preference as it is a matter of pinpointing possible geographic origins.
[/quote]

The Silures have been on my mind quite a bit here lately too. Very tempting for me, as their homeland is within geographic range of my families homeland. Theres some reason why SRY2627 is more prominent in the Southwest of England (and Wales if Im not mistaken). I think its due to some sort of metalurgist type tribe migrating there or trade with other locations involving metals. At any rate, I think SRY2627 was in the Isles before the romans got there. The fact that SRY2627 seems contained to the southwest also adds a bit of reinforcement to a Silurian origin, with regards to where SRY2627 came from before it got to the isles.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: rms2 on January 27, 2013, 06:46:47 PM
. . .

Iberia has long struck me as a pooling point for P312, not an expansion point. Though I don't necessarily agree with the idea that P312's descendants occured on their way to their modern frequency zones. That seems to be an idea held in high regard with the L21 crowd if you ask me. Never quite understood that one. At least with regards for a need to have been an aboriginal subclade within the Isles.

Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc".

Perhaps you could explain what you mean. Where did P312's SNP descendants arise then? All in their current places of highest frequency?

Maybe you didn't intend a snotty tone, but it's certainly there: "the L21 crowd"  . . . "Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc"[sic]".

You have used a number of your posts in the past to complain that there are too many L21-related posts here. It amazes me that a fellow P312er would complain and make sarcastic remarks about the members of another P312+ haplogroup.

And what member of "the L21 crowd" has labeled SRY2627 "Iberian" and insisted on it? I don't recall doing that ever (not that there is anything wrong with being Iberian - there's not).





Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on January 27, 2013, 08:43:50 PM


I think we can lay those old papers to rest with regards to origin theories. Do they show us where subclades of DF27 ended up? Of course, but they hardly tell us anything other than modern frequencies. While SRY2627 may have had origins in or near the Pyrenees, I seriously doubt that it happened further south of the mounation range. So I don't  the Pyrenees as a place of origin, but I wouldn't go further south either.

Iberia has long struck me as a pooling point for P312, not an expansion point. Though I don't necessarily agree with the idea that P312's descendants occured on their way to their modern frequency zones. That seems to be an idea held in high regard with the L21 crowd if you ask me. Never quite understood that one. At least with regards for a need to have been an aboriginal subclade within the Isles.

Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc".

My understanding is that DF27 is primarily Iberian (not exclusively of course) and though L176.2 is kind of everywhere, we do have it in Iberia. Then of course, Z262 just throws everything off along with the brother clade of L165 which points to Scotland with Norse ancestry. The diversity and variance issues will surface up here and there but Iberia outside the Pyrenees contains some pretty good variance and what strikes me as odd is how that variance really drops in France. I'm more inclined to think the expansion of the Roman Empire had to possibly do with the spread of this subclade. It's high frequency in Liebana nearest the battlefields of the "Fiery Wars" where at least 5-6 legions were involved. Of course, we have Tarragona (Tarraco) and Empuries in modern day Catalonia that were the Romans entered at started to establish Hispania Citerior and Ulterior. Obviously Tarrco was of great importance and it connects with the Ilergetes and that of Celtiberians during the siege of Numantia. Those older studies have been consistent in validating each other's findings and so I am quite reluctant to refute the data points especially when other papers support the high presence of upstream subclades in Iberia with some high frequency. I am not so sure if SRY2627 is Iberian, Celtiberian, but it doesn't seem to be Iberian Celt. The further south we go into Iberia, would seem to show a higher diversity and the closer it gets to Corduba and Huelva, the closer it gets to Tartessian. Back to the Romans, I remember a while ago there was a paper pondering the possibility that SRY2627's presence in the Liebana (near the famous Covadonga, which a launching point of the Reconquista of Spain) could be Visigothic, Roman, and perhaps the presence of SRY2627 in Britain itself is related to Basque fishermen. Visigothic is tempting, but the Romans are more closer as there is a connection to Iberians. Also, I still to this day find it odd how we can get physical descriptions of the Silures and how they compare to Hispania. Is it possible the Silures are a late arrival to Britain just before the Romans? These people apparently look different enough from the others that they warrant mention. I am okay with Iberian, Celtiberian, or even Silurian; it's not a matter of cultural preference as it is a matter of pinpointing possible geographic origins.

The Silures have been on my mind quite a bit here lately too. Very tempting for me, as their homeland is within geographic range of my families homeland. Theres some reason why SRY2627 is more prominent in the Southwest of England (and Wales if Im not mistaken). I think its due to some sort of metalurgist type tribe migrating there or trade with other locations involving metals. At any rate, I think SRY2627 was in the Isles before the romans got there. The fact that SRY2627 seems contained to the southwest also adds a bit of reinforcement to a Silurian origin, with regards to where SRY2627 came from before it got to the isles.
[/quote]

I remember reading somewhere that a large amount of Spanish glassware was found during digs at Tintagel Castle that were pre-Saxon.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: ArmandoR1b on January 27, 2013, 09:03:07 PM

I remember reading somewhere that a large amount of Spanish glassware was found during digs at Tintagel Castle that were pre-Saxon.

I am interested in reading about this. If anyone can provide more info I would appreciate it.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on January 28, 2013, 01:42:02 AM

I remember reading somewhere that a large amount of Spanish glassware was found during digs at Tintagel Castle that were pre-Saxon.

I am interested in reading about this. If anyone can provide more info I would appreciate it.

I was just watching the documentary on the Mary Rose and I am absolutely amazed at this thing. What really struck me as quite interesting is that most of its crew was from Spain! I'm particularly interested in the archers. One for sure was tested as coming from Wales and it appears that most of the men who did come from Britain came from around the West Country and Wales. I'm hoping they can shed some light on the DNA analysis on the Spaniards who were aboard this ship.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on January 28, 2013, 01:53:56 AM


I think we can lay those old papers to rest with regards to origin theories. Do they show us where subclades of DF27 ended up? Of course, but they hardly tell us anything other than modern frequencies. While SRY2627 may have had origins in or near the Pyrenees, I seriously doubt that it happened further south of the mounation range. So I don't  the Pyrenees as a place of origin, but I wouldn't go further south either.

Iberia has long struck me as a pooling point for P312, not an expansion point. Though I don't necessarily agree with the idea that P312's descendants occured on their way to their modern frequency zones. That seems to be an idea held in high regard with the L21 crowd if you ask me. Never quite understood that one. At least with regards for a need to have been an aboriginal subclade within the Isles.

Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc".

My understanding is that DF27 is primarily Iberian (not exclusively of course) and though L176.2 is kind of everywhere, we do have it in Iberia. Then of course, Z262 just throws everything off along with the brother clade of L165 which points to Scotland with Norse ancestry. The diversity and variance issues will surface up here and there but Iberia outside the Pyrenees contains some pretty good variance and what strikes me as odd is how that variance really drops in France. I'm more inclined to think the expansion of the Roman Empire had to possibly do with the spread of this subclade. It's high frequency in Liebana nearest the battlefields of the "Fiery Wars" where at least 5-6 legions were involved. Of course, we have Tarragona (Tarraco) and Empuries in modern day Catalonia that were the Romans entered at started to establish Hispania Citerior and Ulterior. Obviously Tarrco was of great importance and it connects with the Ilergetes and that of Celtiberians during the siege of Numantia. Those older studies have been consistent in validating each other's findings and so I am quite reluctant to refute the data points especially when other papers support the high presence of upstream subclades in Iberia with some high frequency. I am not so sure if SRY2627 is Iberian, Celtiberian, but it doesn't seem to be Iberian Celt. The further south we go into Iberia, would seem to show a higher diversity and the closer it gets to Corduba and Huelva, the closer it gets to Tartessian. Back to the Romans, I remember a while ago there was a paper pondering the possibility that SRY2627's presence in the Liebana (near the famous Covadonga, which a launching point of the Reconquista of Spain) could be Visigothic, Roman, and perhaps the presence of SRY2627 in Britain itself is related to Basque fishermen. Visigothic is tempting, but the Romans are more closer as there is a connection to Iberians. Also, I still to this day find it odd how we can get physical descriptions of the Silures and how they compare to Hispania. Is it possible the Silures are a late arrival to Britain just before the Romans? These people apparently look different enough from the others that they warrant mention. I am okay with Iberian, Celtiberian, or even Silurian; it's not a matter of cultural preference as it is a matter of pinpointing possible geographic origins.

The Silures have been on my mind quite a bit here lately too. Very tempting for me, as their homeland is within geographic range of my families homeland. Theres some reason why SRY2627 is more prominent in the Southwest of England (and Wales if Im not mistaken). I think its due to some sort of metalurgist type tribe migrating there or trade with other locations involving metals. At any rate, I think SRY2627 was in the Isles before the romans got there. The fact that SRY2627 seems contained to the southwest also adds a bit of reinforcement to a Silurian origin, with regards to where SRY2627 came from before it got to the isles.

I remember reading somewhere that a large amount of Spanish glassware was found during digs at Tintagel Castle that were pre-Saxon.
[/quote]

SRY2627 is a tough cookie to crack sometimes. The subclade is all over the place and it's nearly or seemingly impossible to find out exactly where it originated. The obvious regions of high frequency is not a sure guarantee as much as I would love it to be. What I am particularly intrigued with is the arrival of men from Iberia from the Hundred Years War back to the Bronze Age Maritime Trade Exchange Networks. The Hundred Years War must have seen quite a few men from Spain, Gascony, Poitou, and Brittany arriving to Britain. Men from Gascony may have been the bulk of the famous English war bow archers in France (mostly in southern France). I also am intrigued at the prospects of perhaps Visigothic SRY2627, as well arrivals from Hispania Tarraconesis possibly with legions such as Hispani IX and several others that have been posted in Iberia along the Ebro River basis (SRY2627's hot zone so to speak).
Obviously there are all sorts of possibilities even if it's just a smattering of Basque or Gascon fishermen, or perhaps Pictones during the era of the Atlantic metal-exchange networks. It's always speculation but nonetheless it's quite interesting. Hopefully we can get some good evidence from ancient DNA pointing us closer to where SRY2627 originated and where the subclade made its entry into Britain.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on January 28, 2013, 02:18:12 AM
. . .

Iberia has long struck me as a pooling point for P312, not an expansion point. Though I don't necessarily agree with the idea that P312's descendants occured on their way to their modern frequency zones. That seems to be an idea held in high regard with the L21 crowd if you ask me. Never quite understood that one. At least with regards for a need to have been an aboriginal subclade within the Isles.

Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc".

Perhaps you could explain what you mean. Where did P312's SNP descendants arise then? All in their current places of highest frequency?

Maybe you didn't intend a snotty tone, but it's certainly there: "the L21 crowd"  . . . "Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc"[sic]".

You have used a number of your posts in the past to complain that there are too many L21-related posts here. It amazes me that a fellow P312er would complain and make sarcastic remarks about the members of another P312+ haplogroup.

And what member of "the L21 crowd" has labeled SRY2627 "Iberian" and insisted on it? I don't recall doing that ever (not that there is anything wrong with being Iberian - there's not).


I think the complaints are based on a lack of new information for SRY2627 since it's no longer the poster child it once had been in the earlier years of DNA research. This subclade has been worked over so many times that it almost seems like common knowledge that it's Iberian and so it's stated as such because of its frequency there. Obviously, nobody really knows where it originated so its really a moot point to point at the L21 crowd as Celtic in terms of origin as it is for SRY2627 to be called Iberian in terms of origin, all we have are frequencies and that can be proven and so the labels get attached the way they do. I'm fine with it, even if someday we magically find the "Holy Grail" of SRY2627 DNA in Antarctica, I will still say the subclade is Iberian due to its high frequency there.

Arch aka "The Iberian" and proud of it!!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on January 28, 2013, 02:32:16 AM
. . .

Iberia has long struck me as a pooling point for P312, not an expansion point. Though I don't necessarily agree with the idea that P312's descendants occured on their way to their modern frequency zones. That seems to be an idea held in high regard with the L21 crowd if you ask me. Never quite understood that one. At least with regards for a need to have been an aboriginal subclade within the Isles.

Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc".

Perhaps you could explain what you mean. Where did P312's SNP descendants arise then? All in their current places of highest frequency?

Maybe you didn't intend a snotty tone, but it's certainly there: "the L21 crowd"  . . . "Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc"[sic]".

You have used a number of your posts in the past to complain that there are too many L21-related posts here. It amazes me that a fellow P312er would complain and make sarcastic remarks about the members of another P312+ haplogroup.

And what member of "the L21 crowd" has labeled SRY2627 "Iberian" and insisted on it? I don't recall doing that ever (not that there is anything wrong with being Iberian - there's not).





I don't recall it either (An L21 person saying SRY2627 is and only could be Iberian). So I don't know what you're talking about. I do think that certain people favor the theory that P312's descendants occured on the way to their modern frequencies, based on a nationalistic need/desire for their subclade to have always been in a certain place or associated with a particular culture. Maybe I'm wrong. Either way thats just my opinion and I'm not going to censor it.  

I was arguing against P312's descendants arising where they currently hold their highest modern frequencies. I don't know how P312 spread, I don't have the answers.. I don't think anyone does yet. We're all speculating.. I'm basing my speculations on DF27's wide dispersal.. I'm arguing against using modern frequencies, because.. well, alot of stuff has happened in the past few thousand years and I think people moved around alot more than what is traditionally believed. That and Iberia has always struck me more as a pooling point for DF27's subclades.. How did they get there?? Thats what Arch is mentioning in his posts.. and while I don't always agree with him, I do respect his opinion and am always welcome to another viewpoint; even if I may not agree with it.

I have sarcasam towards L21'ers.. Not hate or dislike, Sorry if you mis-read my sarcasm.. Its quite difficult to express it via text. Though you do seem to be awfully sensitive to it.. Its nothing personal and it certainally wasn't directed towards anyone specific.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Dubhthach on January 28, 2013, 05:52:17 AM
As a compromise there's always Celtiberian ;)

We have another three DF27+ in the Ireland project, two of our members are DF27+/Z196-

I should point out of course that the Ó Néill's of Ulster (O'Neill surname) are looking like their mainline is potentially DF27+ (Z196-) this is what is known as "O'Neill Varient" eg. the fact that the mainline of O'Neill surname is not M222+ (pointing to them not been members of Uí Néill but a potentiall NPE) -- Uí Néill = dynastical title, completely different meaning form Ó Néill (Surname eg. O'Neill in english)

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on January 28, 2013, 08:42:00 AM
As a compromise there's always Celtiberian ;)

We have another three DF27+ in the Ireland project, two of our members are DF27+/Z196-

I should point out of course that the Ó Néill's of Ulster (O'Neill surname) are looking like their mainline is potentially DF27+ (Z196-) this is what is known as "O'Neill Varient" eg. the fact that the mainline of O'Neill surname is not M222+ (pointing to them not been members of Uí Néill but a potentiall NPE) -- Uí Néill = dynastical title, completely different meaning form Ó Néill (Surname eg. O'Neill in english)

-Paul
(DF41+)


At first I was thinking the same thing that you posted about Celtiberians. LOL! I decided to post against it because I wanted a pure Iberian race rather than it being mixed with some creepy people who believe in things like Halloween :-d (just kidding). The mainline of "O'Niell" variants showing up as DF27+(Z196-) in Ulster is quite unique. Maybe they are the Lucky Charms we have been after to finally put this issue to rest about whether or not certain clades under P312 are Celtic are not. Let me refer to this informative book called The Origins of The British People. Hmmmm, nope showing origins somewhere near the Basque Country Iberian Pyrenees.
Uggh! These Iberians are all over the place! Southern Wales, you know, the Silures! Of course, in Old Albania in the Caucasus and I see that hideous term "Iberians" again. Oh wait! I see a Hiberia! LOL! You cannot escape it. Everybody DF27 downstream is Iberian I suppose in one way or another, just like everybody has an inner hippie--it's all good man.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Dubhthach on January 28, 2013, 11:25:47 AM
Sure Halloween is nothing but New Year's eve, ye know even the dead are allowed out of the underworld to get a breath of fresh air at least once a year!

DF27 is old, just like it's brother U152 and L21 (and I'm not forgetting the other P312 subclades) assigning modern concept of "nation state" on a SNP that's circa 4000 years old is bound to fail.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on January 28, 2013, 12:27:33 PM
Sure Halloween is nothing but New Year's eve, ye know even the dead are allowed out of the underworld to get a breath of fresh air at least once a year!

DF27 is old, just like it's brother U152 and L21 (and I'm not forgetting the other P312 subclades) assigning modern concept of "nation state" on a SNP that's circa 4000 years old is bound to fail.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I couldn't agree with you more.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on January 28, 2013, 04:33:13 PM
Sure Halloween is nothing but New Year's eve, ye know even the dead are allowed out of the underworld to get a breath of fresh air at least once a year!

DF27 is old, just like it's brother U152 and L21 (and I'm not forgetting the other P312 subclades) assigning modern concept of "nation state" on a SNP that's circa 4000 years old is bound to fail.

-Paul
(DF41+)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov9qLzarIFE


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on January 28, 2013, 04:37:28 PM
As a compromise there's always Celtiberian ;)

We have another three DF27+ in the Ireland project, two of our members are DF27+/Z196-

I should point out of course that the Ó Néill's of Ulster (O'Neill surname) are looking like their mainline is potentially DF27+ (Z196-) this is what is known as "O'Neill Varient" eg. the fact that the mainline of O'Neill surname is not M222+ (pointing to them not been members of Uí Néill but a potentiall NPE) -- Uí Néill = dynastical title, completely different meaning form Ó Néill (Surname eg. O'Neill in english)

-Paul
(DF41+)

Very interesting! Thank you for informing us of this. Although its not always true, alot of P312's descendants do seem to have a Celtic vibe about them. And I do agree with Celtiberian for certain subclades of DF27.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on January 28, 2013, 05:07:27 PM
Sure Halloween is nothing but New Year's eve, ye know even the dead are allowed out of the underworld to get a breath of fresh air at least once a year!

DF27 is old, just like it's brother U152 and L21 (and I'm not forgetting the other P312 subclades) assigning modern concept of "nation state" on a SNP that's circa 4000 years old is bound to fail.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Yeah, I tried that for Catalonia (a stateless nation) but the idea didn't take off calling it SRY2627lunya. This SNP is some 3,500 yrs old and so maybe I would be better off calling it Iberian or Urnfieldan (is that a word?). I don't think Iberians had nation-states or even city-states for that matter.

Arch



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on January 28, 2013, 05:35:52 PM
Sure Halloween is nothing but New Year's eve, ye know even the dead are allowed out of the underworld to get a breath of fresh air at least once a year!

DF27 is old, just like it's brother U152 and L21 (and I'm not forgetting the other P312 subclades) assigning modern concept of "nation state" on a SNP that's circa 4000 years old is bound to fail.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Yeah, I tried that for Catalonia (a stateless nation) but the idea didn't take off calling it SRY2627lunya. This SNP is some 3,500 yrs old and so maybe I would be better off calling it Iberian or Urnfieldan (is that a word?). I don't think Iberians had nation-states or even city-states for that matter.

Arch



I believe the term you're looking for is "Urnfieldian". I would term it Urnfield-Iberian though :)


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: rms2 on January 29, 2013, 08:45:06 PM
. . .

I have sarcasam towards L21'ers.. Not hate or dislike, Sorry if you mis-read my sarcasm.. Its quite difficult to express it via text. Though you do seem to be awfully sensitive to it.. Its nothing personal and it certainally wasn't directed towards anyone specific.

Why the sarcasm directed at L21'ers?

BTW, noticing something and being perplexed by it - since there seems no real reason for it - is not the same as being "awfully sensitive to it".

I did not misread what you wrote. It was snotty, and I got that part. The reason for the snottiness is what escapes me.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on January 30, 2013, 12:52:07 AM
. . .

I have sarcasam towards L21'ers.. Not hate or dislike, Sorry if you mis-read my sarcasm.. Its quite difficult to express it via text. Though you do seem to be awfully sensitive to it.. Its nothing personal and it certainally wasn't directed towards anyone specific.

Why the sarcasm directed at L21'ers?

BTW, noticing something and being perplexed by it - since there seems no real reason for it - is not the same as being "awfully sensitive to it".

I did not misread what you wrote. It was snotty, and I got that part. The reason for the snottiness is what escapes me.

The sarcasm towards L21'ers isn't directed at the group as whole. Its directed towards the ones who I have mentioned in my previous post. It gets a wee bit too personal if I go into anymore detail and by that I mean it will be obvious that I'm talking about specific people. Which I'm not going to do.

The fact that you keep bringing it back up and won't let something as meaningless as a sligthly off-handed remark go, is perplexing to me.

I already told you it wasn't personal and I honestly don't know why you find what I said so snotty or offensive. Yes there was a bit of a tone, if you will, in what I said. But its nothing worth pursuing or looking into or making into what this has become. 

Either way I'm done with this site.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 30, 2013, 01:14:13 PM
...
Iberia has long struck me as a pooling point for P312, not an expansion point. Though I don't necessarily agree with the idea that P312's descendants occured on their way to their modern frequency zones.....

I could be wrong, but I think relative ages for P312 itself, for U152, DF27 and for L21 are all close. The implication is they were each born just generations away from each other, not thousands of years different.

There is a time and space consideration. The closer related people are to each other, the more likely they were closer geographically too each other. This is obvious as their common ancestor is one man. It is a true one man could travel a long way by boat but there are limits, for instance it would be hard to get to China safely in ancient times.

Since we are talking about very large groups, U152, L21, DF27 and P312 in aggregate, they were clearly successful in growing and surviving. I think that increases the probability of good logistics and protection. This takes time and numbers of people to operate. Hence, I think it is likely that the subclades that were successful were colonizing groups/settlers rather than individual fur trappers or prospectors. All of this just means they probably moved slowly.

Somehow U152, L21 and DF27... and U106 too, have vastly different distributions, but if they involved groups of people that moved slowly by today's standards then they must have started out not too far away from each other.

Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc".
I don't really see this as exclusive. Of course I'm referring to the tribes known as Celtiberian.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on January 30, 2013, 10:35:31 PM
. . .

I have sarcasam towards L21'ers.. Not hate or dislike, Sorry if you mis-read my sarcasm.. Its quite difficult to express it via text. Though you do seem to be awfully sensitive to it.. Its nothing personal and it certainally wasn't directed towards anyone specific.

Why the sarcasm directed at L21'ers?

BTW, noticing something and being perplexed by it - since there seems no real reason for it - is not the same as being "awfully sensitive to it".

I did not misread what you wrote. It was snotty, and I got that part. The reason for the snottiness is what escapes me.

The sarcasm towards L21'ers isn't directed at the group as whole. Its directed towards the ones who I have mentioned in my previous post. It gets a wee bit too personal if I go into anymore detail and by that I mean it will be obvious that I'm talking about specific people. Which I'm not going to do.

The fact that you keep bringing it back up and won't let something as meaningless as a sligthly off-handed remark go, is perplexing to me.

I already told you it wasn't personal and I honestly don't know why you find what I said so snotty or offensive. Yes there was a bit of a tone, if you will, in what I said. But its nothing worth pursuing or looking into or making into what this has become. 

Either way I'm done with this site.


Samuel Isaackson, it would be a shame to see you exit the forum.  You show passion, are you sure you're not Iberian?  All seriousness aside, in the Schlegel DNA project, one of the lineages is sry2627.  It's pretty interesting considering its a German place name.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on January 31, 2013, 04:07:34 AM
. . .

I have sarcasam towards L21'ers.. Not hate or dislike, Sorry if you mis-read my sarcasm.. Its quite difficult to express it via text. Though you do seem to be awfully sensitive to it.. Its nothing personal and it certainally wasn't directed towards anyone specific.

Why the sarcasm directed at L21'ers?

BTW, noticing something and being perplexed by it - since there seems no real reason for it - is not the same as being "awfully sensitive to it".

I did not misread what you wrote. It was snotty, and I got that part. The reason for the snottiness is what escapes me.

The sarcasm towards L21'ers isn't directed at the group as whole. Its directed towards the ones who I have mentioned in my previous post. It gets a wee bit too personal if I go into anymore detail and by that I mean it will be obvious that I'm talking about specific people. Which I'm not going to do.

The fact that you keep bringing it back up and won't let something as meaningless as a sligthly off-handed remark go, is perplexing to me.

I already told you it wasn't personal and I honestly don't know why you find what I said so snotty or offensive. Yes there was a bit of a tone, if you will, in what I said. But its nothing worth pursuing or looking into or making into what this has become. 

Either way I'm done with this site.


Samuel Isaackson, it would be a shame to see you exit the forum.  You show passion, are you sure you're not Iberian?  All seriousness aside, in the Schlegel DNA project, one of the lineages is sry2627.  It's pretty interesting considering its a German place name.

Hmmm, I do recall Spaniards being in Holland. Not to mention the Occitan was one of languages used for the oaths of Strasbourg. Not all "outsiders" of Iberia are going to necessarily point to another place of origin for SRY2627.

Sam, you must let go and embrace the Iberian (LOL). Seriously, I think taking a break for a bit is better than flat out leaving. Nobody wants you to leave--at least I don't.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on January 31, 2013, 04:19:59 AM
The distance-relation gap between neighboring cultures would for the most part be a common feature, albeit not an exclusive one. Factors such as sailing will bring a fair amount of people from one distant point to another. I speculate the movements that move along the coastal routes tend to create an eclectic mix of people, whereas the people who traveled overland will tend to "cluster," especially when a geographical barrier is involved such as the Pyrenees, Alps, peninsulas, islands, big rivers, etc. If rapid transit technology was available back then (which I'm sure it was in the form of horses, sailboats or ships), then closely related people can be distantly settled in fairly large groups.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on January 31, 2013, 08:41:33 AM
Arch and Webb,

Thanks for the support! I'll lurk and or creep for the time being. I'm not angry or anything, I'm just sick of discussing something that I feel wasn't a big deal.

I'll chalk the passion up to either Iberian machismo or Celtic defiance lol Perhaps a mixture of both?!

I'm fine with being Iberian, if that is infact where my y-line ultimately descends from. I favor the Urnfield label, as I have since the days of Dna-forums.

Granted, I have considered other possibilities as well. Ultimatlely though, Urnfield seems to be a pretty good fit.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on January 31, 2013, 10:31:26 AM
The distance-relation gap between neighboring cultures would for the most part be a common feature, albeit not an exclusive one. Factors such as sailing will bring a fair amount of people from one distant point to another. I speculate the movements that move along the coastal routes tend to create an eclectic mix of people, whereas the people who traveled overland will tend to "cluster," especially when a geographical barrier is involved such as the Pyrenees, Alps, peninsulas, islands, big rivers, etc. If rapid transit technology was available back then (which I'm sure it was in the form of horses, sailboats or ships), then closely related people can be distantly settled in fairly large groups.

Arch

Arch, this is my only issue with an Iberian origin, and I did for a while believe it a real possibility.  SRY2627 has an age of around 875 B.C.  Z209 and the North/South cluster has an age of around 850 B.C.  The two groups at one time were one.  Both groups must have split off and went there seperate ways.  The North/South cluster seems to have an equal distribution across Europe, no one place having more of Z220 than another place.  And yes the two last SNP's in the North/South Cluster line seem to be pooled in France/Spain.  These two are Z214 and of course the infamous M153, which seem to have developed after the Z220 group had already been in Britain as these two have not been found in any British samples.  This puts the split somtime between 200 B.C. and 200 A.D.  This said, I wonder if somewhere further east of Spain could be the starting point for both these groups, maybe France close to the Rhine, or Swizterland or Austria close to the Danube.  I do not think they started overly far from the Pyrenees, but yet they started out at the same time and from the same point as Z209, but are in two very different areas.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on February 01, 2013, 01:20:03 AM
Arch and Webb,

Thanks for the support! I'll lurk and or creep for the time being. I'm not angry or anything, I'm just sick of discussing something that I feel wasn't a big deal.

I'll chalk the passion up to either Iberian machismo or Celtic defiance lol Perhaps a mixture of both?!

I'm fine with being Iberian, if that is infact where my y-line ultimately descends from. I favor the Urnfield label, as I have since the days of Dna-forums.

Granted, I have considered other possibilities as well. Ultimatlely though, Urnfield seems to be a pretty good fit.

Urnfield has always best fit the description. I advocated that a long time ago seeing how the terminal point of the Urnfield spread appears to be in Catalonia or least the Ebro R. basin for which SRY2627 seems to be most predominate. Origins must be in the region between the Ebro R. and the head of the Rhine R.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on February 01, 2013, 02:16:14 AM
Arch and Webb,

Thanks for the support! I'll lurk and or creep for the time being. I'm not angry or anything, I'm just sick of discussing something that I feel wasn't a big deal.

I'll chalk the passion up to either Iberian machismo or Celtic defiance lol Perhaps a mixture of both?!

I'm fine with being Iberian, if that is infact where my y-line ultimately descends from. I favor the Urnfield label, as I have since the days of Dna-forums.

Granted, I have considered other possibilities as well. Ultimatlely though, Urnfield seems to be a pretty good fit.

Urnfield has always best fit the description. I advocated that a long time ago seeing how the terminal point of the Urnfield spread appears to be in Catalonia or least the Ebro R. basin for which SRY2627 seems to be most predominate. Origins must be in the region between the Ebro R. and the head of the Rhine R.

Arch

Indeed. Perhaps the reason why SRY2627 came to dominate the Pyrenees was due to the similar enviroment of their supposed place of origin.. aka the French/Swiss alps.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on February 02, 2013, 04:30:44 AM
I would love to see some more testing in the Occitan speaking regions of Italy and around the Italian Alps. The one thing that intrigues me are the Swedish findings. I wonder what on Earth brought them there? Seeing as how most can trace ancestry around to 1700 I am merely guessing their ancestry goes further back. SRY2627 If perhaps we consider the time frame SRY2627 emerged and guess the highest of the variances were found we could be looking at either the Volcae Tectosages, or Goths based on spread. SRY2627 is found in the
Ukraine, Visigoths/Ostrogroths, possibly Volcae Tectosages
Romania, Visigoths/Ostrogoths
Hungary, Visigoths
Italy, Visigoths, Cimbri, Celtiberians in Sicily
Spain, Visigoths, Vandals, Suebi
France, Visigoths (Vandals, Suebi in transit to Spain, Cimbri for a visit), Volcae Tect.
Sweden, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vikings?
Denmark, Cimbri
Belgium, Franks
Scotland, Picts? Saxons, Vikings?
Wales, Silures and other "Celtic Tribes"
Ireland (incl. N. Ireland), Not sure
Portugal, Celtiberian port of Oporto,
Canaries, From Normandy, Gascony, La Rochelle, and Mallorca
Baleares, Celtiberian
Madiera, Age of Exploration 1490s-1600s
Norway, Vikings
Germany, Saxons, Suebi, Visigoths
Poland, Visigoths, Vandals?
Tunisia, Vandals

Or we are really looking at the later phase of Bell Beakers at LBA. Clearly, Sweden, Denmark and Norway are not Urnfield. SO it might be better off to scratch that one.
Something in me keeps saying Goth long before they split up. The Volcae originated around the borders of Germany and Czech along with the Boi. But the Volcae did not make it to Italy or Tunisia. Visgoths would clearly have less variance and diversity from older Goths as they moved westwards over time. Not that I am ascribing that this would be the definitive answer since cultures and subclades are a bad mixture; what I am looking at is spread tied to a particular culture(s). We see our brother L165 clearly with origins in Scandinavia and we do have Swedish and Danish SRY2627.

Of course, Denmark with the Cimbri would be a possibility. Sweden has the Goths and Vandals and/Suebi are not too far off in Polan. So, SRY2627 has a northern point of origin but some thing or events are responsible for its spread across Europe.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on February 02, 2013, 04:44:26 AM
The distance-relation gap between neighboring cultures would for the most part be a common feature, albeit not an exclusive one. Factors such as sailing will bring a fair amount of people from one distant point to another. I speculate the movements that move along the coastal routes tend to create an eclectic mix of people, whereas the people who traveled overland will tend to "cluster," especially when a geographical barrier is involved such as the Pyrenees, Alps, peninsulas, islands, big rivers, etc. If rapid transit technology was available back then (which I'm sure it was in the form of horses, sailboats or ships), then closely related people can be distantly settled in fairly large groups.

Arch

Arch, this is my only issue with an Iberian origin, and I did for a while believe it a real possibility.  SRY2627 has an age of around 875 B.C.  Z209 and the North/South cluster has an age of around 850 B.C.  The two groups at one time were one.  Both groups must have split off and went there seperate ways.  The North/South cluster seems to have an equal distribution across Europe, no one place having more of Z220 than another place.  And yes the two last SNP's in the North/South Cluster line seem to be pooled in France/Spain.  These two are Z214 and of course the infamous M153, which seem to have developed after the Z220 group had already been in Britain as these two have not been found in any British samples.  This puts the split somtime between 200 B.C. and 200 A.D.  This said, I wonder if somewhere further east of Spain could be the starting point for both these groups, maybe France close to the Rhine, or Swizterland or Austria close to the Danube.  I do not think they started overly far from the Pyrenees, but yet they started out at the same time and from the same point as Z209, but are in two very different areas.

It's really tough to go with the current locations but if we just play the game that if we find higher variance and diversity further north and east, then this must be the point or near the point of origin. What we should also consider is what events would cause the spread of sublcades and their distribution in ancient history. If SRY2627 has an estimated age of 875 BC the we are looking at a spread of Indo-European speaking people from or near the center of Europe. What I find odd is how SRY2627 is found everywhere Germanic tribes of the Dark Ages have made their way throughout Europe. We have SRY2627 in Sweden, Tunisia, Spain, Canaries, Madiera I., and a whole bunch of place that would not seem to fit with the "Celtic" but more with a Germanic origin whether in the form of Visigoths, Franks, Suebi, Vandals, etc. It certainly favors the Goths. The Canaries were settled by people from Normandy, Gascony, Poitou, and Mallorca. All regions of which have Germanic lineages that made their way. Seeing the history of Catalonia and of Cantabria where SRY2627 makes some numbers, this is the region of the Visigoths. Was the Gothic expansion responsible for the spread of SRY2627 from around the Baltic Sea?

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on February 02, 2013, 11:50:44 AM
The distance-relation gap between neighboring cultures would for the most part be a common feature, albeit not an exclusive one. Factors such as sailing will bring a fair amount of people from one distant point to another. I speculate the movements that move along the coastal routes tend to create an eclectic mix of people, whereas the people who traveled overland will tend to "cluster," especially when a geographical barrier is involved such as the Pyrenees, Alps, peninsulas, islands, big rivers, etc. If rapid transit technology was available back then (which I'm sure it was in the form of horses, sailboats or ships), then closely related people can be distantly settled in fairly large groups.

Arch



Arch, this is my only issue with an Iberian origin, and I did for a while believe it a real possibility.  SRY2627 has an age of around 875 B.C.  Z209 and the North/South cluster has an age of around 850 B.C.  The two groups at one time were one.  Both groups must have split off and went there seperate ways.  The North/South cluster seems to have an equal distribution across Europe, no one place having more of Z220 than another place.  And yes the two last SNP's in the North/South Cluster line seem to be pooled in France/Spain.  These two are Z214 and of course the infamous M153, which seem to have developed after the Z220 group had already been in Britain as these two have not been found in any British samples.  This puts the split somtime between 200 B.C. and 200 A.D.  This said, I wonder if somewhere further east of Spain could be the starting point for both these groups, maybe France close to the Rhine, or Swizterland or Austria close to the Danube.  I do not think they started overly far from the Pyrenees, but yet they started out at the same time and from the same point as Z209, but are in two very different areas.

It's really tough to go with the current locations but if we just play the game that if we find higher variance and diversity further north and east, then this must be the point or near the point of origin. What we should also consider is what events would cause the spread of sublcades and their distribution in ancient history. If SRY2627 has an estimated age of 875 BC the we are looking at a spread of Indo-European speaking people from or near the center of Europe. What I find odd is how SRY2627 is found everywhere Germanic tribes of the Dark Ages have made their way throughout Europe. We have SRY2627 in Sweden, Tunisia, Spain, Canaries, Madiera I., and a whole bunch of place that would not seem to fit with the "Celtic" but more with a Germanic origin whether in the form of Visigoths, Franks, Suebi, Vandals, etc. It certainly favors the Goths. The Canaries were settled by people from Normandy, Gascony, Poitou, and Mallorca. All regions of which have Germanic lineages that made their way. Seeing the history of Catalonia and of Cantabria where SRY2627 makes some numbers, this is the region of the Visigoths. Was the Gothic expansion responsible for the spread of SRY2627 from around the Baltic Sea?

Arch

Arch, this is my only issue with the Goths.  Z220 is in Britain and everywhere else.  Z216/Z278 is primarily Western Europe, then z214 is French and Spanish and has an age of 655 B.C. to 200 B.C.  Then you have M153 which is Spanish at 200A.D.  So Z220 was already in Spain/France prior to the roman collapse in order to spawn Z216, Z214, and M153.  Which is too early for the goths.  I would imagine since Z220, a subclade of Z209 and SRY2627 have a similiar story,  you mentioned Belgium but not the Belgae.  The volcae seem to be in the right places.  The only other option to that the Iberian and Aquitaini are of the same people that went on to become the celts and every wave of celts coming into Spain are a regurgitation of the same haplotypes.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on February 02, 2013, 07:01:02 PM
The distance-relation gap between neighboring cultures would for the most part be a common feature, albeit not an exclusive one. Factors such as sailing will bring a fair amount of people from one distant point to another. I speculate the movements that move along the coastal routes tend to create an eclectic mix of people, whereas the people who traveled overland will tend to "cluster," especially when a geographical barrier is involved such as the Pyrenees, Alps, peninsulas, islands, big rivers, etc. If rapid transit technology was available back then (which I'm sure it was in the form of horses, sailboats or ships), then closely related people can be distantly settled in fairly large groups.

Arch



Arch, this is my only issue with an Iberian origin, and I did for a while believe it a real possibility.  SRY2627 has an age of around 875 B.C.  Z209 and the North/South cluster has an age of around 850 B.C.  The two groups at one time were one.  Both groups must have split off and went there seperate ways.  The North/South cluster seems to have an equal distribution across Europe, no one place having more of Z220 than another place.  And yes the two last SNP's in the North/South Cluster line seem to be pooled in France/Spain.  These two are Z214 and of course the infamous M153, which seem to have developed after the Z220 group had already been in Britain as these two have not been found in any British samples.  This puts the split somtime between 200 B.C. and 200 A.D.  This said, I wonder if somewhere further east of Spain could be the starting point for both these groups, maybe France close to the Rhine, or Swizterland or Austria close to the Danube.  I do not think they started overly far from the Pyrenees, but yet they started out at the same time and from the same point as Z209, but are in two very different areas.

It's really tough to go with the current locations but if we just play the game that if we find higher variance and diversity further north and east, then this must be the point or near the point of origin. What we should also consider is what events would cause the spread of sublcades and their distribution in ancient history. If SRY2627 has an estimated age of 875 BC the we are looking at a spread of Indo-European speaking people from or near the center of Europe. What I find odd is how SRY2627 is found everywhere Germanic tribes of the Dark Ages have made their way throughout Europe. We have SRY2627 in Sweden, Tunisia, Spain, Canaries, Madiera I., and a whole bunch of place that would not seem to fit with the "Celtic" but more with a Germanic origin whether in the form of Visigoths, Franks, Suebi, Vandals, etc. It certainly favors the Goths. The Canaries were settled by people from Normandy, Gascony, Poitou, and Mallorca. All regions of which have Germanic lineages that made their way. Seeing the history of Catalonia and of Cantabria where SRY2627 makes some numbers, this is the region of the Visigoths. Was the Gothic expansion responsible for the spread of SRY2627 from around the Baltic Sea?

Arch

Arch, this is my only issue with the Goths.  Z220 is in Britain and everywhere else.  Z216/Z278 is primarily Western Europe, then z214 is French and Spanish and has an age of 655 B.C. to 200 B.C.  Then you have M153 which is Spanish at 200A.D.  So Z220 was already in Spain/France prior to the roman collapse in order to spawn Z216, Z214, and M153.  Which is too early for the goths.  I would imagine since Z220, a subclade of Z209 and SRY2627 have a similiar story,  you mentioned Belgium but not the Belgae.  The volcae seem to be in the right places.  The only other option to that the Iberian and Aquitaini are of the same people that went on to become the celts and every wave of celts coming into Spain are a regurgitation of the same haplotypes.

The problem with the Volcae is that we don't see them in Northern Africa and I have not seen anything showing SRY2627 in Anatolia (Galatia), albeit, we do have a few SRY2627 near Anatolia. Also, we don't see Volcae in Scandinavia or in Italy, and we have a few spread out from the North all the way to Sicily. When I think of Italy, I think of the Cimbri but I don't know if they reached towards Calabria and Sicily. It's still disputed whether Cimbri are Germanic or Celtic.

Only one culture fits closest to SRY2627's spread across all of Europe and that is the Visigoths perhaps with a smattering of Vandals and Suebic. Perhaps the Swedish SRY2627 are late arrivals there? Then what explains L165 and its association with the region and the Eastern region of England, and throughout Scotland mostly associated with Vikings. Presumably these Vikings are of Gauti stock? I don't know my Vikings very well but they do originate near the homeland of the Goths.

In regards to the Visigothic presence in Iberia, I think there is a notion to believe they arrived right after the fall of Rome in 410 AD and nothing could be further from the truth. They must have been showing up around 200 AD and settling the region as unwanted guests and squatters. The Suebi and the Vandals arrived just before the Visigoths as they were pushed further south (Vandals) and the Suebi to Galicia in NW Iberia. I don't see a Volcae presence in Iberia with possibly an exception of Lusones, but I haven't verified it. It's easy to see a possibility of the Volcae being responsible for spreading SRY2627 but then it falls apart when we move into Iberia, Scandinavia, Northern Africa, and Italy.

Going back to the Visigoths and their ancestral homeland around the Baltic of Poland and Southern Sweden, IF this region was perhaps the origins of SRY2627, it's almost a perfect match for where we find SRY2627 across Europe from this point forward. It would mean the age of c.800 BC could not be that far off from the original Germanic tribes and its decreasing variance or diversity as the clade moves west and southwest from the Baltic region. The Visigoth predominance moves to southern France and in Iberia from 400 AD forward. The only perplexing problem is the variance is higher in Iberia than in France for SYR2627, which would not indicate a Visigothic spread or any spread from other cultures North to South overland. The Pyrenees having the least amount of variance, perhaps an indicator of a push up north into the safehavens as the Moors invaded Iberia and pushed north and around the Pyrenees. Essentially a land of Franks and Visigoths defending Christendom.

Bell Beaker to LBA - Bell Beakers in N. Africa? Scandinavia? Ukraine?
Urnfield - N. Africa? Scandinavia? Poland?
Volcae Tectosages - Scandinavia? Poland or Baltic region?
Boi - Same as above
Biturges? -
Celtiberian - Where did its Celtic element originate? Eburones, Belgae?
Lusitanians -
Tartessian -
Cynetes - Same as above?
Aquitani - Same as below?
Iberian - From Ephesus? Troia? Etruscans? Ligurians?
Vandals -
Suebi - Origins in Baltic region
Visigoths - Origins in Baltic region

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on February 04, 2013, 09:48:33 PM
From the last couple of variance runs that Mike performed, both sets show French SRY2627 as being older than Iberian SRY2627.

SRY2627 France______: Var=0.94 [Mixed 49] (N=15)
SRY2627 France______: Var=1.06 [Linear 36] (N=15)

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.86 [Mixed 49] (N=9)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.77 [Linear 36] (N=9)

SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.84 [Mixed 49] (N=63)
SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.80 [Linear 36] (N=63)

SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.80 [Mixed 49] (N=17)
SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.75 [Linear 36] (N=17)

Here's the second set..

SRY2627 France______: Var=0.87 [Mixed 24] (N=22)
SRY2627 France______: Var=0.96 [Linear 16] (N=22)

SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.79 [Mixed 24] (N=20)
SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.59 [Linear 16] (N=20)

SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.78 [Mixed 24] (N=75)
SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.78 [Linear 16] (N=75)

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.76 [Mixed 24] (N=15)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.70 [Linear 16] (N=15)


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on February 06, 2013, 05:47:38 AM
From the last couple of variance runs that Mike performed, both sets show French SRY2627 as being older than Iberian SRY2627.

SRY2627 France______: Var=0.94 [Mixed 49] (N=15)
SRY2627 France______: Var=1.06 [Linear 36] (N=15)

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.86 [Mixed 49] (N=9)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.77 [Linear 36] (N=9)

SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.84 [Mixed 49] (N=63)
SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.80 [Linear 36] (N=63)

SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.80 [Mixed 49] (N=17)
SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.75 [Linear 36] (N=17)

Here's the second set..

SRY2627 France______: Var=0.87 [Mixed 24] (N=22)
SRY2627 France______: Var=0.96 [Linear 16] (N=22)

SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.79 [Mixed 24] (N=20)
SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.59 [Linear 16] (N=20)

SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.78 [Mixed 24] (N=75)
SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.78 [Linear 16] (N=75)

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.76 [Mixed 24] (N=15)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.70 [Linear 16] (N=15)


It's too bad these results are not broken down into specific regions. So, if the French samples are more variant, then where do the most variant and least variant cluster?

My only guess is that we have more people who in the southern region of France who tested positive for SRY2627, but are they more variant than other French samples?

If I'm not mistaken, we had more people test for SRY2627 in the La Rochelle/Poitiers and Gascony region in comparison to the Provence and Languedoc region. But we shouldn't solely rely on just one genomic company's data for frequency distribution.

Apparently the assumed origins must be in France by these results. The only one thing that comes to mind is how L165 associates with Nordic people. Are we then looking at perhaps the Normans, Gascons, Pictones, Bretons, as an explanation to understanding the spread of SRY2627 all over Europe? In particular, the Normans being the main reason for the wider spread of the subclade in later times Europe?

Arch







Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on February 06, 2013, 06:26:13 PM
The distance-relation gap between neighboring cultures would for the most part be a common feature, albeit not an exclusive one. Factors such as sailing will bring a fair amount of people from one distant point to another. I speculate the movements that move along the coastal routes tend to create an eclectic mix of people, whereas the people who traveled overland will tend to "cluster," especially when a geographical barrier is involved such as the Pyrenees, Alps, peninsulas, islands, big rivers, etc. If rapid transit technology was available back then (which I'm sure it was in the form of horses, sailboats or ships), then closely related people can be distantly settled in fairly large groups.

Arch

Arch, this is my only issue with an Iberian origin, and I did for a while believe it a real possibility.  SRY2627 has an age of around 875 B.C.  Z209 and the North/South cluster has an age of around 850 B.C.  The two groups at one time were one.  Both groups must have split off and went there seperate ways.  The North/South cluster seems to have an equal distribution across Europe, no one place having more of Z220 than another place.  And yes the two last SNP's in the North/South Cluster line seem to be pooled in France/Spain.  These two are Z214 and of course the infamous M153, which seem to have developed after the Z220 group had already been in Britain as these two have not been found in any British samples.  This puts the split somtime between 200 B.C. and 200 A.D.  This said, I wonder if somewhere further east of Spain could be the starting point for both these groups, maybe France close to the Rhine, or Swizterland or Austria close to the Danube.  I do not think they started overly far from the Pyrenees, but yet they started out at the same time and from the same point as Z209, but are in two very different areas.

I'm really that opposed to the idea that SRY2627 emerged in Italy, perhaps even Switzerland, nearby Liechtenstein or the Tyrol region of Austria. Germany, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, I might not really agree with, but convince me.

We're running out of countries here. BTW I'm only applying the idea of region instead of geopolitical boundaries. Identifying the country helps locate the region and then I hope we can move on from there and in identifying the source valley, pass, village...

Perhaps its not "Iberian" in the strictest sense, but more pre-Pyrenean. If we're looking at variance going higher north of Iberia, well the pre-Pyrenees are north of Iberia and the least variant SRY2627 in the Pyrenees.

So, if I read this right, the Pyrenees is really sort of the last point where SRY2627 clustered up as a "big group" (obviously, not everybody made it to the Pyrenees). However, I wonder what percentage migrated across the Garonne-Aude river gap reaching the Atlantic from southern routes.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on February 08, 2013, 04:24:22 AM
From the last couple of variance runs that Mike performed, both sets show French SRY2627 as being older than Iberian SRY2627.

SRY2627 France______: Var=0.94 [Mixed 49] (N=15)
SRY2627 France______: Var=1.06 [Linear 36] (N=15)

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.86 [Mixed 49] (N=9)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.77 [Linear 36] (N=9)

SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.84 [Mixed 49] (N=63)
SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.80 [Linear 36] (N=63)

SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.80 [Mixed 49] (N=17)
SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.75 [Linear 36] (N=17)

Here's the second set..

SRY2627 France______: Var=0.87 [Mixed 24] (N=22)
SRY2627 France______: Var=0.96 [Linear 16] (N=22)

SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.79 [Mixed 24] (N=20)
SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.59 [Linear 16] (N=20)

SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.78 [Mixed 24] (N=75)
SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.78 [Linear 16] (N=75)

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.76 [Mixed 24] (N=15)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.70 [Linear 16] (N=15)


I wonder how much of Cantabrian SRY2627 got added into this variance mixture table. Something just seems weird with the historic high frequency of R1b1b2* in the Basque Country.

http://goo.gl/a5Tvr (http://goo.gl/a5Tvr)

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on February 08, 2013, 09:28:48 AM
Sorry for the delay in my response. I've been thinking about what you have said. From my own selfish view in the sceme of things, I keep going back to Celtic migrations and trade being one of the reasons for its spread. Most of the SRY2627 in the Isles seems to be in the Southwest and general Western areas. Traditionally Brythonic areas of the Isles. Then of course we have the Nordic L165, I'm still scratching my head over that one. I guess thats why no one really talks about it.

We are in a unique position in the P312 world, we are not necessarily Celtic nor are we necessarily Iberian, Germanic or any other nationality or culture. We are a mix of these peoples, no one more than the other. Though we do have a frequency pooling in Catalonia, I do believe this is recent in terms of how we view time.

We need to stop looking at clades like L21 and trying to compare ourselves to them with regard to their spread. They do seem to have occured along the way to their modern frequency zone. The trouble is, this logic is then applied to all of P312's clades and this is what I was refrencing earlier on that created my most recent fiasco.

I think DF27 occured much earlier and much farther east than most of the people on these forums seem to believe. I believe that DF27 was the first P312 descendant to venture into Western Europe, characterized by its wide dispersal and odd locations of frequency; likely reflecting founder effects.

I'm not an anthropology major, so I have no idea which culture or cultures would be responsible for our spread. Though I do like the Visigothic one for some reason, but then that would contradict my earlier statement about DF27 being the earliest entry to the Western front.

Though I guess we could say that the Z196 family occured in eastern europe and kind of remained there for a time and then spread in more recent times. DF27* seems to be more spread and random than, lets say, SRY2627. So maybe an early form of DF27 led the way and the major grouping (Z196) that came in and gave us the modern frequencies we see today occured after the fact.


Sam


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on February 08, 2013, 07:40:27 PM
The whole thing is a mess, but it's also a challenge. I just keep thinking back to some of the other findings of high frequency for SRY2627 besides Catalonia. Liebana Valley and Pas Valley in Cantabria (near the headwaters of the Ebro R.), Oporto, Portugal (mouth of the Duero R.) which originates near Numantia (Celtiberian hillfort), El Hierro Is. in the Canaries, Mallorca, and Tunisia. For such a smallish subclade it is very widespread in regions typically associated with the Iberian Peninsula and of course we have Belgium, Poland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Hungary, Romania, and the Ukraine to name a few far flung places from Iberia. The best answer given the age is some sort of Atlanto-Balto-Iberic fusion of something. I can't even call it Atlantic Celt as tempting as it may seem.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on February 14, 2013, 01:12:48 PM
The whole thing is a mess, but it's also a challenge. I just keep thinking back to some of the other findings of high frequency for SRY2627 besides Catalonia. Liebana Valley and Pas Valley in Cantabria (near the headwaters of the Ebro R.), Oporto, Portugal (mouth of the Duero R.) which originates near Numantia (Celtiberian hillfort), El Hierro Is. in the Canaries, Mallorca, and Tunisia. For such a smallish subclade it is very widespread in regions typically associated with the Iberian Peninsula and of course we have Belgium, Poland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Hungary, Romania, and the Ukraine to name a few far flung places from Iberia. The best answer given the age is some sort of Atlanto-Balto-Iberic fusion of something. I can't even call it Atlantic Celt as tempting as it may seem.

Arch

Arch, I have done some more reading about the Volcae and they are documented as having settled in the Ebro valley with a few other Celtic tribes.  And for sure the Goths did not come until much later, to late, if you ask me, for them to be the founding group of SRY2627 or Z214 and M153.  However, I did discover that during the 1st century B.C. a large confederation of Germanic tribes, the Cimbri, the Tuetones, and the Ambrones left their homeland somewhere around Jutland and headed due south through Eastern Europe and the hooked west and ended up in the Ebro valley in Hispania and raided Gaul also.  Interestingly enough, the king of the Cimbri had a celtic name.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on February 14, 2013, 08:51:22 PM
The whole thing is a mess, but it's also a challenge. I just keep thinking back to some of the other findings of high frequency for SRY2627 besides Catalonia. Liebana Valley and Pas Valley in Cantabria (near the headwaters of the Ebro R.), Oporto, Portugal (mouth of the Duero R.) which originates near Numantia (Celtiberian hillfort), El Hierro Is. in the Canaries, Mallorca, and Tunisia. For such a smallish subclade it is very widespread in regions typically associated with the Iberian Peninsula and of course we have Belgium, Poland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Hungary, Romania, and the Ukraine to name a few far flung places from Iberia. The best answer given the age is some sort of Atlanto-Balto-Iberic fusion of something. I can't even call it Atlantic Celt as tempting as it may seem.

Arch

Arch -

In recent weeks, I have become aware of two Catalonian Geno 2.0 participants whose terminal SNP is R-CTS4299+, which is four levels downstream from SRY2627+. I have also become aware of another CTS4299+ Geno 2.0 participant who traces his paternal line to Kent, England. As some of you know, CTS4299+ is my terminal SNP. My observations prompt two questions and one comment:

(1) When and how did CTS4299+ cross the English Channel?

(2) What SNPs downstream from SRY2627+ appear in areas that you mentioned in your post? I see four choices (in chronological order): Z205+, CTS8289+, Z207+, and CTS4299+.

(3) Z207+ is the terminal SNP of a Geno 2.0 participant whose paternal line comes from Germany. A comparison of his 67 marker haplotype and mine suggests that Z207+ might have appeared between 1500 to 2000 years ago.

Stephen

Postscript for Arch:

Do you know whether your WTY results were taken into consideration when the Geno 2.0 chip was developed? I am aware that L659+ is one of the Y chromosome SNPS that Geno 2.0 tests.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on February 15, 2013, 07:10:07 PM
The whole thing is a mess, but it's also a challenge. I just keep thinking back to some of the other findings of high frequency for SRY2627 besides Catalonia. Liebana Valley and Pas Valley in Cantabria (near the headwaters of the Ebro R.), Oporto, Portugal (mouth of the Duero R.) which originates near Numantia (Celtiberian hillfort), El Hierro Is. in the Canaries, Mallorca, and Tunisia. For such a smallish subclade it is very widespread in regions typically associated with the Iberian Peninsula and of course we have Belgium, Poland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Hungary, Romania, and the Ukraine to name a few far flung places from Iberia. The best answer given the age is some sort of Atlanto-Balto-Iberic fusion of something. I can't even call it Atlantic Celt as tempting as it may seem.

Arch

Arch -

In recent weeks, I have become aware of two Catalonian Geno 2.0 participants whose terminal SNP is R-CTS4299+, which is four levels downstream from SRY2627+. I have also become aware of another CTS4299+ Geno 2.0 participant who traces his paternal line to Kent, England. As some of you know, CTS4299+ is my terminal SNP. My observations prompt two questions and one comment:

(1) When and how did CTS4299+ cross the English Channel?

(2) What SNPs downstream from SRY2627+ appear in areas that you mentioned in your post? I see four choices (in chronological order): Z205+, CTS8289+, Z207+, and CTS4299+.

(3) Z207+ is the terminal SNP of a Geno 2.0 participant whose paternal line comes from Germany. A comparison of his 67 marker haplotype and mine suggests that Z207+ might have appeared between 1500 to 2000 years ago.

Stephen

Postscript for Arch:

Do you know whether your WTY results were taken into consideration when the Geno 2.0 chip was developed? I am aware that L659+ is one of the Y chromosome SNPS that Geno 2.0 tests.

Stephen,

I have no idea. Hopefully they did take it into consideration especially if it would have been about the same time they were developing the Geno 2.0 stuff.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on February 21, 2013, 02:10:48 AM
I have recieved word from my group administrator that the test has been ordered for my supposed cousin whose roots go back to Devonshire, England.

We'll know in a couple of weeks or so if he is indeed SRY2627 positive. I'll be surprised if he isn't, but then it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about my y-lines place of origin either.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on February 25, 2013, 04:10:14 AM
The whole thing is a mess, but it's also a challenge. I just keep thinking back to some of the other findings of high frequency for SRY2627 besides Catalonia. Liebana Valley and Pas Valley in Cantabria (near the headwaters of the Ebro R.), Oporto, Portugal (mouth of the Duero R.) which originates near Numantia (Celtiberian hillfort), El Hierro Is. in the Canaries, Mallorca, and Tunisia. For such a smallish subclade it is very widespread in regions typically associated with the Iberian Peninsula and of course we have Belgium, Poland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Hungary, Romania, and the Ukraine to name a few far flung places from Iberia. The best answer given the age is some sort of Atlanto-Balto-Iberic fusion of something. I can't even call it Atlantic Celt as tempting as it may seem.

Arch

Arch, I have done some more reading about the Volcae and they are documented as having settled in the Ebro valley with a few other Celtic tribes.  And for sure the Goths did not come until much later, to late, if you ask me, for them to be the founding group of SRY2627 or Z214 and M153.  However, I did discover that during the 1st century B.C. a large confederation of Germanic tribes, the Cimbri, the Tuetones, and the Ambrones left their homeland somewhere around Jutland and headed due south through Eastern Europe and the hooked west and ended up in the Ebro valley in Hispania and raided Gaul also.  Interestingly enough, the king of the Cimbri had a celtic name.

If I'm not mistaken, it was the Lusones (not to be confused with the Lusitanians in around the western Spain and Portugal region) were part of the Volcae. They did settle down along the Ebro R. near Llieda, the ancient capital of the Ilergetes from where its name is derived. The Volcae seem to be good connector, though I would definitely not  later SRY2627 moving along with the Visigoths, Suebi, Vandals, Lombards, etc. The Cimbri almost seem to be a good possibility given they are earlier than the Visigoths and they are documented to have been in the Pyrenees and quite certain they were in Toulouse as allies of the Volcae Tectosages. One thing is quite clear, is how important Toulouse was in 100 BCE and earlier. Obviously it regained its importance after the fall of the Roman Empire and then after the Battle of Vouille it just kind of kept diminishing in importance after the Franks pushed the Visigoths to the south and into Iberia. You are correct about the Volcae origins being near the home of the Boii, pretty much where we see the Boii, we see the Volcae. There are some interesting names and places that evoke memories of the Boii in Bordeaux or Burdigala (apparently Gallic) and Val d'Boi south of Val d'Aran. Volcae does get us closer to "birthdate" of SRY2627. I'm guessing it (Volcae) falls short of 400 years?? Thus we reach back in the Late Bronze Age as the Bell Beakers or Urnfielders. I guess we'll have to wait for an answer from ancient DNA. The sooner the better.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on February 26, 2013, 05:40:31 AM
I just can't shake a Celtic origin for my line. Try as I might, I was toying with a Flemish origin for a minute, but that fell through.

I think I may actually have evidence of a Brythonic/Breton connection. My family is from Devonshire aka Dumnonia. People from this area and Wales fled to what is now Brittany in the early middle ages.

There is a Frenchman( surname: Grouazel) in the SRY2627 project who is listing Brittany as his mdka. He is DYS490=12 and shares my unique str of 14 repeats at 392. I think he may be evidence of this event. Our gd is fairly high, above ten at 67 markers,  but then I would expect this as it happened quite a ways back. We only mis-match a step or two in each of the areas we do mis-match.

Theres also a couple of people claiming Irish heritage, though I think Joyce is British, who are 490=12 and have 14 repeats. I haven't contacted either of these people because I don't really think I have enough conclusive evidence to make any claims directly to them.

Though I don't think my single case of a Brythonic type background would go against any of the cultures currently being discussed. I may be an exception to the rule.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on February 26, 2013, 04:45:58 PM
I just can't shake a Celtic origin for my line. Try as I might, I was toying with a Flemish origin for a minute, but that fell through.

I think I may actually have evidence of a Brythonic/Breton connection. My family is from Devonshire aka Dumnonia. People from this area and Wales fled to what is now Brittany in the early middle ages.

There is a Frenchman( surname: Grouazel) in the SRY2627 project who is listing Brittany as his mdka. He is DYS490=12 and shares my unique str of 14 repeats at 392. I think he may be evidence of this event. Our gd is fairly high, above ten at 67 markers,  but then I would expect this as it happened quite a ways back. We only mis-match a step or two in each of the areas we do mis-match.

Theres also a couple of people claiming Irish heritage, though I think Joyce is British, who are 490=12 and have 14 repeats. I haven't contacted either of these people because I don't really think I have enough conclusive evidence to make any claims directly to them.

Though I don't think my single case of a Brythonic type background would go against any of the cultures currently being discussed. I may be an exception to the rule.

I think this is the way the pendulum is swinging, SRY2627 is by and large an early variant of "Celtic." The Iberian theory falls short with the Scandinavian, Polish and further east SRY2627. However, Celtic is pretty much everywhere in Europe, even near or in Scandinavia (Cimbri). Maybe, just maybe the SRY2627 split is due to a significant event such as migration and split of the Tuetones and the Cimbri as an example. I have others in mind. Atrebates seems to be a better candidate for the earlier SRY2627 in Britain but I wouldn't  an earlier Iron age movement to Britain. After all, Urnfielders were good at making hillforts on the mainland, and I can't see any reason why those skilled men couldn't make it to Britain.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on March 22, 2013, 12:27:04 PM
Hey guys Bruce here or Brousse  I will always go back to my Idea that the proto Celtic tribes of the pictones and santones are our origin seafaring tribes of the Bay of Biscay  skilled ship builders when the Romans arrived no doubt traded on the English coast and other places  Vincent Jullet and my family come from these lands. Low numbers of SRY2627 could be the result of having a great back yard that everyone wanted to control. I think trace evidence exist with the small numbers scattered in coastal areas. We may have even got there ourselves by the sea from where is anyone's guess


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on March 23, 2013, 02:54:29 AM
Hey guys Bruce here or Brousse  I will always go back to my Idea that the proto Celtic tribes of the pictones and santones are our origin seafaring tribes of the Bay of Biscay  skilled ship builders when the Romans arrived no doubt traded on the English coast and other places  Vincent Jullet and my family come from these lands. Low numbers of SRY2627 could be the result of having a great back yard that everyone wanted to control. I think trace evidence exist with the small numbers scattered in coastal areas. We may have even got there ourselves by the sea from where is anyone's guess

Hey,

Nice to see you back. I am intrigued why we have such a high frequency around this region of France within FTDNA. Research studies point to a great concentration in the Midi Pyrenees region of France. Of course, the classic Pyrenean pictures gets thrown in there as well. My closest match is Julliet (Vienne?) and Alberti (near Asiago, Italy). That's an interesting mix I suppose. My guess is the "homeland" is nearer to Alpine Italy (a mama mia!). It's all good, I am always confused as being Italian.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on March 23, 2013, 08:23:50 AM
Great News for me Arch I checked my FTDNA page and for the first time in 12 years I have 2 12 marker non surname matches haplogroup on one shows just P312 the other U106 they are both French surnames . Mr Greenspan told me years ago if anyone with my family's first 12 markers showed up he was pretty sure they would be related I don't guess there is anyway I'm related to the U106 guy? one name is LaRoche the other Tatard I have many matches but up until now just surname matches.Also Arch one time I found something on the Santone tribe that they had a branch in Italy I will try and find it again


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on March 23, 2013, 08:45:16 AM
http://michaelsantone.com/santones.htm


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on March 23, 2013, 01:20:28 PM
Hey guys Bruce here or Brousse  I will always go back to my Idea that the proto Celtic tribes of the pictones and santones are our origin seafaring tribes of the Bay of Biscay  skilled ship builders when the Romans arrived no doubt traded on the English coast and other places  Vincent Jullet and my family come from these lands. Low numbers of SRY2627 could be the result of having a great back yard that everyone wanted to control. I think trace evidence exist with the small numbers scattered in coastal areas. We may have even got there ourselves by the sea from where is anyone's guess

Hey,

Nice to see you back. I am intrigued why we have such a high frequency around this region of France within FTDNA.

Assuming this is the same Brousse for whom I once translated an old Huguenot marriage record (on Eupedia), the FTDNA concentration might be related to a certain amount of filtering of the French population that went to England, and/or to such colonies as (French) Canada, the Caribbean, and the present USA.  By no means all of that had to do with religion, though some did; but I'd guess the more coastal/maritime areas were (and still are) better represented in the western hemisphere than the more inland or mountainous areas of present France.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on March 23, 2013, 02:24:30 PM
Yes Razyn this is the same person. You translated my 8th Great Grandfather's marriage certificate for me Jacques Brousse and Sara Cornu 1690 from the Huguenot church of London


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on March 24, 2013, 10:18:58 PM
I wanted to point out that there are new markers, downstream of SRY2627, which may or may not help to pinpoint the geographical origins of clusters such as DYS 490=12 and DYS490=10.  Apparently there is a marker associated with each of these (CTS606 for the former and CTS8289 for the latter).

Under CTS8289 is Z207, which further subdivides into CTS4299 and Z208.  The R1b1c6 group with FTDNA is conducting studies of these markers.  Anyone who has tested with FTDNA and who is DYS490=10 should consider testing for one or more of them.  (The administrator of the group is recommending Z207 as a starting point).


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on March 25, 2013, 11:32:19 AM
I wanted to point out that there are new markers, downstream of SRY2627, which may or may not help to pinpoint the geographical origins of clusters such as DYS 490=12 and DYS490=10.  Apparently there is a marker associated with each of these (CTS606 for the former and CTS8289 for the latter).

Under CTS8289 is Z207, which further subdivides into CTS4299 and Z208.  The R1b1c6 group with FTDNA is conducting studies of these markers.  Anyone who has tested with FTDNA and who is DYS490=10 should consider testing for one or more of them.  (The administrator of the group is recommending Z207 as a starting point).

Jason -

Since those of us in section A2 of FTDNA's SRY2627+ project have CTS4299+ as our terminal SNP according to my Geno 2.0 results, there will be no need for anyone in that section to test Z207. I have noticed the following Geno 2.0 terminal SNPs in section A0: CTS8289+ and Z207+; accordingly, more testing of SNPs in section A0 should be considered.

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on March 27, 2013, 08:39:08 AM
I was looking at the FTDNA SRY2627 group and noticed that in the dys 490 10 group you have no Spanish or Spanish names the 490 12 group is were they are at why is this?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on March 27, 2013, 06:55:19 PM
I was looking at the FTDNA SRY2627 group and noticed that in the dys 490 10 group you have no Spanish or Spanish names the 490 12 group is were they are at why is this?

Well, there is N14866, Jose Miguel Garcia, and also N28116 Serapio Silva.  In group A9 (also DYS490=10) there is N92541 Wenceslao Ortiz.  Not as many as the 12 or so in the other group, nor as high a percentage of the total (approximately 4% vs. 17%), but still...


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on March 28, 2013, 05:48:05 AM
I'm A0 group Elie Brousse of Cognac 148371 . The cool thing with my family group is my cousin matches here in America we can see a mutation took place in 1755 all decendants of my 5th Great Grandfather Revolution Veteran Arnold Bruce have DYS38911=31 his brothers line are 30


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on March 28, 2013, 05:51:49 AM
A letter from Gareth

Hello Dean

thanks for your e-mail. I've not seen the detailed stats and I'm not aware that enough unbiased data has been collected from France but I think it's possible that SRY2627 first occurred somewhere in what is now France about 1,500 BC. So I think anyone who is SRY2627+ with family history traced back to France can assume that the paternal line was in that region for the last 3,000 years or so, until further evidence suggests otherwise.

I hope this helps answer your question.

Best wishes

Gareth


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on March 30, 2013, 03:32:43 AM
Great News for me Arch I checked my FTDNA page and for the first time in 12 years I have 2 12 marker non surname matches haplogroup on one shows just P312 the other U106 they are both French surnames . Mr Greenspan told me years ago if anyone with my family's first 12 markers showed up he was pretty sure they would be related I don't guess there is anyway I'm related to the U106 guy? one name is LaRoche the other Tatard I have many matches but up until now just surname matches.Also Arch one time I found something on the Santone tribe that they had a branch in Italy I will try and find it again

I have a 25 marker match at 3 steps with Appleby's (not Applebee's, that place has horrible food). They are located in Essex, Colchester region. Makes me wonder if my group of SRY2627 arrived with the Romans or the Belgae perhaps. Colchester is, I think, one of the oldest cities in Britain rather than some village, hillfort, or oppidum. 

Also, I wonder if the Helvetii had any impact in the region of the Saintones. It seems like they were attempting to but they didn't succeed. The other thing I have pondered is the influence found with the Taifai who arrived to Britain from around the Poitiers region. Did they ally with the Romans to fight the Veneti and then found their way in Britain later during the Claudian period. Everybody focuses too much on Belgium but there were other ways to get to Britain going back at least to the Bronze Age.

Arch

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on March 30, 2013, 03:37:17 AM
I was looking at the FTDNA SRY2627 group and noticed that in the dys 490 10 group you have no Spanish or Spanish names the 490 12 group is were they are at why is this?

I've pointed this out for some time now. However, there is no clear distinction why that is so and we do have some DYS 490=10 folks who have Spanish and/or Basque surnames.   

My guess this points to the most recent massive migration of genetically similar group of SRY2627 people were settled in and near the Pyrenees. This accounts for the high frequency.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on March 30, 2013, 01:39:35 PM
I have a 25 marker match at 3 steps with Appleby's (not Applebee's...)
Just FYI in case this turns out to be a family name in which you have long term interest, one of the more thoroughly developed detectives in English language fiction is Sir John Appleby of Scotland Yard.  There are umpteen books about him, by Michael Innes -- a pseudonym of the late J.I.M. Stewart.  I agree with your restaurant review, but the books are good.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on March 30, 2013, 11:56:50 PM
I'm A0 group Elie Brousse of Cognac 148371 . The cool thing with my family group is my cousin matches here in America we can see a mutation took place in 1755 all decendants of my 5th Great Grandfather Revolution Veteran Arnold Bruce have DYS38911=31 his brothers line are 30

Brousse, you should take the Z207 test if you haven't already!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on March 31, 2013, 10:50:54 AM
I'm tired of whipping a dead horse but here is my over view of SRY2627. I believe it was born in Gaul like Gareth said about 3,000 years ago on the shores of the Bay of Biscay. It was born into pre Celtic tribes of the people known as the Pictones and Santones . These people traded along the English  coast and may have even established settlements there. I also believe these are the people first described as Kelts by the Greeks. I believe their prime location caused them great struggles to hold power there and with the Roman conquest of Gaul that brought them to the Bay of Biscay was the beginning of the end for these people. They built a fleet of ships for the Romans and no doubt served in Roman legions. When the Roman empire crumbled like in England these people had been Romanized . And left to their own but could not hold the Bay and many where killed off by invading armies many may have fled into Iberia many may have taken to the sea in search of new lands Just my theory 


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 02, 2013, 11:09:53 AM
Santones
The Santones were a Gaulish peoples who occupied the area of Saintonage, western Gaul and whose primary settlement was at Mediolanum (modern-day Saintes), north of the river Gironde. These were the peoples whose territory was threatened by the migration of the Helvetii (58 BCE). In thanks for Julius Caesar's intervention against the Helvetii the Santones (a maritime peoples) provided Caesar with a fleet to aid in his Gallic campaigns of 56 BCE (just as their neighbours the Pictavii did). Little else is known about the Santones, which suggests that they were faithful allies of Rome and therefore not worthy of further mention.

The tribe's name may be related to the reconstructed proto-Celtic element: *sani- (different, which is related to the Old Irish sain). This suggests that either they were one of the first Celtic peoples to arrive in the region and thus were 'different' from the local populace, or they were part of the local population who survived Celtic colonization, were labelled with a Celtic name and eventually became Celticized.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 04, 2013, 05:51:54 PM
I wished it was that simple. However, unfortunately it's not. There are so many variables involved with population movements, let alone the genetic issues which are fraught with more uncertainty perhaps more than ever. Ancient DNA is really our only hope and that leaves much to be desired. All we can go with is the most recent DNA analysis and hope for many to test. It still won't give us a homeland but it will give us an idea where most recent in history the highest frequencies of where subclades assimilated. Irritating as it may be sometimes, I still have some sliver of hope that some kind of breakthrough will happen to give us more certainty instead of making the best guesses possible. We have beaten this subject to a bloody pulp (I agree).

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on April 05, 2013, 09:45:17 AM
I think that SRY2627 was distributed throughout Western Europe too early to associate them with one particular culture or group.  Clearly SRY2627 in western France was represented in the Gallic tribes such as Pictones and Santones, but also probably in Aquitanian tribes.  In Spain, perhaps they were represented in Iberian tribes as well.  This is at least 3 cultural/language groups.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on April 05, 2013, 10:23:06 AM
I think that SRY2627 was distributed throughout Western Europe too early to associate them with one particular culture or group.  Clearly SRY2627 in western France was represented in the Gallic tribes such as Pictones and Santones, but also probably in Aquitanian tribes.  In Spain, perhaps they were represented in Iberian tribes as well.  This is at least 3 cultural/language groups.

Which means that there is a possiblilty that though, early Greek historians labled Iberians as Iberians, they really were roughly the same genetically as there Celtic cousins who came back into those areas from the Hallstatt on.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on April 05, 2013, 06:11:45 PM

Which means that there is a possibility that, though early Greek historians labeled Iberians as Iberians, they really were roughly the same genetically as their Celtic cousins who came back into those areas from the Hallstatt on.

Came back?  How are we supposed to know they had been there before?  Cunliffe/Koch/Oppenheimer?  Percentage of DF27* in the modern population of Puerto Rico?  Not that these are useless sources of information, but I still think too much of this picture is riding on prior assumptions... and that some of the assumptions need to be be questioned.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on April 05, 2013, 08:50:45 PM

Which means that there is a possibility that, though early Greek historians labeled Iberians as Iberians, they really were roughly the same genetically as their Celtic cousins who came back into those areas from the Hallstatt on.

Came back?  How are we supposed to know they had been there before?  Cunliffe/Koch/Oppenheimer?  Percentage of DF27* in the modern population of Puerto Rico?  Not that these are useless sources of information, but I still think too much of this picture is riding on prior assumptions... and that some of the assumptions need to be be questioned.

I didn't mean come back as in they left then came back, I meant that if the Celtic movements into Spain as a result of the Hallstatt, these groups would have mixed with Iberians who really were not much different, possibly, then themselves.  Roman and Greek historians made it seem as if the Iberians were vastly different from the celts, but they never back up that claim with examples.  There are also probably just about as much L21 in Spain as DF27.  So was L21 already there by the Halstatt?  And how can one explain the basque being M153, while there is a growing number of Z220 in the Netherlands and L165 being found in Macdonalds and Macleods who are claiming to have Gaelic-Norse ancestry.  We are missing something I think.  Razyn, I'm with you on the not so fast is DF27 Iberian.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 06, 2013, 03:05:30 AM
I think that SRY2627 was distributed throughout Western Europe too early to associate them with one particular culture or group.  Clearly SRY2627 in western France was represented in the Gallic tribes such as Pictones and Santones, but also probably in Aquitanian tribes.  In Spain, perhaps they were represented in Iberian tribes as well.  This is at least 3 cultural/language groups.

SRY2627 definitely meets the criteria of pre-Celtic and possibly pre-Iberian. Whatever they (early SRY2627) were, is lost to time and history. All we have early knowledge of is what the Greeks, Romans, Phoenicians and Carthaginians encountered. This seems to be too late. So ascribing SRY2627 to any Celtic tribe, or whatever, is seemingly pointless. Not until we get that ancient DNA to help keep pinpointing to geographical affinities. We can work out the cultures from there--maybe.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 06, 2013, 03:13:22 AM
I'm tired of whipping a dead horse but here is my over view of SRY2627. I believe it was born in Gaul like Gareth said about 3,000 years ago on the shores of the Bay of Biscay. It was born into pre Celtic tribes of the people known as the Pictones and Santones . These people traded along the English  coast and may have even established settlements there. I also believe these are the people first described as Kelts by the Greeks. I believe their prime location caused them great struggles to hold power there and with the Roman conquest of Gaul that brought them to the Bay of Biscay was the beginning of the end for these people. They built a fleet of ships for the Romans and no doubt served in Roman legions. When the Roman empire crumbled like in England these people had been Romanized . And left to their own but could not hold the Bay and many where killed off by invading armies many may have fled into Iberia many may have taken to the sea in search of new lands Just my theory 

I have not heard from Gareth or Didier in several years. I presume by your post that Gareth believes the origin of SRY2627 is somewhere in Gascony. Which pretty much is the shores of the Bay of Biscay in Gaul. I know some here would disagree with the contention that SRY2627 originated there based on STR diversity and that claim may be somewhat valid. Do we shift towards the center towards Toulouse or perhaps just more to the east to places like Lyons, or even more east towards northern Italy itself?

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 06, 2013, 11:33:22 AM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200806927317484&set=a.1538381341450.72568.1292396280&type=1&theater


Here is a Picture of my Grandfather froww2 he looks as my 6th Great uncle was described by the Bishop Asbury in 1790 The look has faded with my generation


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 06, 2013, 02:55:18 PM
He looks like the old Brousse line as well as his brothers and dad. His mother had a welsh maiden name of Gist the Gist had been in KY a long time


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 06, 2013, 03:08:06 PM
Not to distract too much from the main point of the thread. But I have just recieved confirmation that my "cousin" with the roots to Devonshire (his g,g,grandfather was from there.), is infact SRY2627 positive!

I got really lucky on this, so I don't want anyone new out there who may be reading this to think that it is that easy. It certainly is not. We've been researching and chasing leads for years prior to this fortunate discovery.

Don't give up hope either! Stay hungry and keep looking even when you're completely sick of doing it.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on April 06, 2013, 03:34:47 PM
Not to distract too much from the main point of the thread. But I have just recieved confirmation that my "cousin" with the roots to Devonshire (his g,g,grandfather was from there.), is infact SRY2627 positive!

I got really lucky on this, so I don't want anyone new out there who may be reading this to think that it is that easy. It certainly is not. We've been researching and chasing leads for years prior to this fortunate discovery.

Don't give up hope either! Stay hungry and keep looking even when you're completely sick of doing it.

Sam, there are quite a few Z220 guys in the P312 group who have ancestry to Devon.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 06, 2013, 03:52:57 PM
Not to distract too much from the main point of the thread. But I have just recieved confirmation that my "cousin" with the roots to Devonshire (his g,g,grandfather was from there.), is infact SRY2627 positive!

I got really lucky on this, so I don't want anyone new out there who may be reading this to think that it is that easy. It certainly is not. We've been researching and chasing leads for years prior to this fortunate discovery.

Don't give up hope either! Stay hungry and keep looking even when you're completely sick of doing it.

Cool! For the longest time I have considered the Devon region as the area where SRY2627 clusters the most within Britain. I had to redact those statements taking other perspectives into consideration such as the presence of SRY2627 in Essex, also in Scotland. For the obvious we would believe that SRY2627 would likely have arrived to Britain via the English Channel from around Belgium or Northern France. However, I've never been opposed to the old Atlantic Maritime Trade-Exchange routes which most likely connected with the mouth of the Rhine R. Whatever the case, I think we could say with a great deal of certainty that SRY2627 most likely arrived to Britain by boat. Finding the point of embarkation and disembarkation would be pretty interesting. It also wouldn't be a linear event because SRY2627+ people would have arrived in sporadically (whether large or small groups). What would be remarkable is, if this did happen, is finding that one Y chromosome most SRY2627+ in Britain descend from--of course we have later arrivals to factor in.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 06, 2013, 04:05:54 PM
Not to distract too much from the main point of the thread. But I have just recieved confirmation that my "cousin" with the roots to Devonshire (his g,g,grandfather was from there.), is infact SRY2627 positive!

I got really lucky on this, so I don't want anyone new out there who may be reading this to think that it is that easy. It certainly is not. We've been researching and chasing leads for years prior to this fortunate discovery.

Don't give up hope either! Stay hungry and keep looking even when you're completely sick of doing it.

Sam, there are quite a few Z220 guys in the P312 group who have ancestry to Devon.

I seen that. Kinda makes it clear that our subclades did travel together and probably have a very similar spread.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 06, 2013, 04:10:53 PM
Not to distract too much from the main point of the thread. But I have just recieved confirmation that my "cousin" with the roots to Devonshire (his g,g,grandfather was from there.), is infact SRY2627 positive!

I got really lucky on this, so I don't want anyone new out there who may be reading this to think that it is that easy. It certainly is not. We've been researching and chasing leads for years prior to this fortunate discovery.

Don't give up hope either! Stay hungry and keep looking even when you're completely sick of doing it.

Cool! For the longest time I have considered the Devon region as the area where SRY2627 clusters the most within Britain. I had to redact those statements taking other perspectives into consideration such as the presence of SRY2627 in Essex, also in Scotland. For the obvious we would believe that SRY2627 would likely have arrived to Britain via the English Channel from around Belgium or Northern France. However, I've never been opposed to the old Atlantic Maritime Trade-Exchange routes which most likely connected with the mouth of the Rhine R. Whatever the case, I think we could say with a great deal of certainty that SRY2627 most likely arrived to Britain by boat. Finding the point of embarkation and disembarkation would be pretty interesting. It also wouldn't be a linear event because SRY2627+ people would have arrived in sporadically (whether large or small groups). What would be remarkable is, if this did happen, is finding that one Y chromosome most SRY2627+ in Britain descend from--of course we have later arrivals to factor in.

Arch

Agreed. Infact, I have been speaking with a SRY2627, DYS490=12, DYS392=14 fellow for the last week or so who is from Brittany. I think he may represent an ancient link to my y-line. We are at a Gd of 15 at 67 markers, so it isn't anything recent, but it is pretty tempting to link him to my family line. From what he has told me, his y-line has been in the non-Breton speaking region since the 14th century, if I'm not mistaken. Giving me more reason to think if our lines are infact of the same source, that they split well before the Briton migrations to Northern France.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 07, 2013, 06:31:11 AM
Well Arch I will stick with SW France as the origin The diversity is greater in France all roads point to France why is that so hard to accept? I don't think Gareth would send me that unless he was pretty sure as well and like he said until it changes that is what he thinks . I don't really care to which tribe just the fact SRY2627 seems to have a birth place there is enough for me. Knowing my family may have been in place from the birth of sry2627 to our exile


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 07, 2013, 07:35:07 AM
Well Arch I will stick with SW France as the origin The diversity is greater in France all roads point to France why is that so hard to accept? I don't think Gareth would send me that unless he was pretty sure as well and like he said until it changes that is what he thinks . I don't really care to which tribe just the fact SRY2627 seems to have a birth place there is enough for me. Knowing my family may have been in place from the birth of sry2627 to our exile

It may well have been in Southwest France.. Hell, it could have been in Switzerland for all we know.

The trouble with all of these theories that you're coming up with is that they are based on modern evidence of our subclade. We simply do not have the ancient dna to make any sort of claims as to whether or not we were Celtic, Iberian or whatever.

Could it be associated with these cultures and peoples? Yes, but to say it originated with them specifically is going to be impossible to prove without adna.

No one is saying that France couldn't be the homeland for our clade, but at the same time we can't make claims based on faulty evidence either.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 07, 2013, 08:04:49 AM
Sam I'm taking the Celtic element out . If our Clade is 3000 years old what time period does this put us as far as Gaul goes? When did the first Eastern Europeans invade into western Europe? My theory is no more  unsupported  than anyone else on here. Everyone wants to think they are right as to it's origin Hell all of us could be wrong we could of came from outer space I'm going off of Gareth's email to me I have seen no other theory that is anymore solid than my own I'm just guessing like everyone else All I have to go on is a family history in the Saintong area of France and a French surname . I don't think we will ever find out the facts I have been involved in the DNA part for 12 years and just now got 2 non surname 12 marker matches both french one listed as p312 the other u106 I gave up a long time ago ever getting the whole story.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on April 07, 2013, 08:21:34 AM
Sam I'm taking the Celtic element out . If our Clade is 3000 years old what time period does this put us as far as Gaul goes? When did the first Easten Europeans invade into western Europe?

Exactly.  That would be 1000 B.C.  I'm Z220 which has the same age.  The Halstatt began about 800 B.C., so most "Celts" as historians called them, start then.  That's not to say if L21 was in Iberia, and L21 in Switzerland became Celts, then the L21 in Iberia could be considered proto-celts.  The age right before the Halstatt was the Urnfield and to me this is a much better fit for our clades of DF27, but I keep getting told that the Urnfield was more of a religion than anything else, however that was the time period that an enormous amount of hill forts started cropping up in Europe.  The map on Wiki shows the spread of the Urnfield and it seems interesting.  Other folk have linked DF27 with the Bell Beakers, but I think that is too old for our groups.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: rms2 on April 07, 2013, 08:28:06 AM
Sam I'm taking the Celtic element out . If our Clade is 3000 years old what time period does this put us as far as Gaul goes? When did the first Easten Europeans invade into western Europe?

Exactly.  That would be 1000 B.C.  I'm Z220 which has the same age.  The Halstatt began about 800 B.C., so most "Celts" as historians called them, start then.  That's not to say if L21 was in Iberia, and L21 in Switzerland became Celts, then the L21 in Iberia could be considered proto-celts.  The age right before the Halstatt was the Urnfield and to me this is a much better fit for our clades of DF27, but I keep getting told that the Urnfield was more of a religion than anything else, however that was the time period that an enormous amount of hill forts started cropping up in Europe.  The map on Wiki shows the spread of the Urnfield and it seems interesting.  Other folk have linked DF27 with the Bell Beakers, but I think that is too old for our groups.

I could be wrong, but I think you see the real Celtic correlation not with any single clade but with P312 overall. L21 has good coverage for the insular Celts but gets a little shakier on the Continent. U152 is good for some of the Continental Celts, but gets really shaky in the Isles. SRY2627 is similar to U152 in that regard but also has an Isles presence.

So I'm thinking the early Celts might have been mostly undifferentiated P312 and that, later, the various clade-defining SNPs arose in their male descendants, especially in chiefs who were able to have multiple wives, concubines, etc., and pass on their SNPs to their sons. Thus SRY2627, like L21 and U152, could very well have arisen in a Celtic or at least Beaker context.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on April 07, 2013, 08:42:04 AM
Sam I'm taking the Celtic element out . If our Clade is 3000 years old what time period does this put us as far as Gaul goes? When did the first Easten Europeans invade into western Europe?

Exactly.  That would be 1000 B.C.  I'm Z220 which has the same age.  The Halstatt began about 800 B.C., so most "Celts" as historians called them, start then.  That's not to say if L21 was in Iberia, and L21 in Switzerland became Celts, then the L21 in Iberia could be considered proto-celts.  The age right before the Halstatt was the Urnfield and to me this is a much better fit for our clades of DF27, but I keep getting told that the Urnfield was more of a religion than anything else, however that was the time period that an enormous amount of hill forts started cropping up in Europe.  The map on Wiki shows the spread of the Urnfield and it seems interesting.  Other folk have linked DF27 with the Bell Beakers, but I think that is too old for our groups.

I could be wrong, but I think you see the real Celtic correlation not with any single clade but with P312 overall. L21 has good coverage for the insular Celts but gets a little shakier on the Continent. U152 is good for some of the Continental Celts, but gets really shaky in the Isles. SRY2627 is similar to U152 in that regard but also has an Isles presence.

So I'm thinking the early Celts might have been mostly undifferentiated P312 and that, later, the various clade-defining SNPs arose in their male descendants, especially in chiefs who were able to have multiple wives, concubines, etc., and pass on their SNPs to their sons. Thus SRY2627, like L21 and U152, could very well have arisen in a Celtic or at least Beaker context.

Agreed, I used L21 as an example.  I personally agree that L21 is insular in the isles and has probably been there for a very long time due to the concentrations there.  Also, I recently pored through the different geographical projects on FTDNA, and found several U152, L21, and SRY2627 in the Lebanon and Turkey projects.  This could support your mixed types theory of the Celts if these markers in Asia Minor were there as a result of Celtic Incursions.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: rms2 on April 07, 2013, 08:43:25 AM
Sam I'm taking the Celtic element out . If our Clade is 3000 years old what time period does this put us as far as Gaul goes? When did the first Easten Europeans invade into western Europe?

Exactly.  That would be 1000 B.C.  I'm Z220 which has the same age.  The Halstatt began about 800 B.C., so most "Celts" as historians called them, start then.  That's not to say if L21 was in Iberia, and L21 in Switzerland became Celts, then the L21 in Iberia could be considered proto-celts.  The age right before the Halstatt was the Urnfield and to me this is a much better fit for our clades of DF27, but I keep getting told that the Urnfield was more of a religion than anything else, however that was the time period that an enormous amount of hill forts started cropping up in Europe.  The map on Wiki shows the spread of the Urnfield and it seems interesting.  Other folk have linked DF27 with the Bell Beakers, but I think that is too old for our groups.

I could be wrong, but I think you see the real Celtic correlation not with any single clade but with P312 overall. L21 has good coverage for the insular Celts but gets a little shakier on the Continent. U152 is good for some of the Continental Celts, but gets really shaky in the Isles. SRY2627 is similar to U152 in that regard but also has an Isles presence.

So I'm thinking the early Celts might have been mostly undifferentiated P312 and that, later, the various clade-defining SNPs arose in their male descendants, especially in chiefs who were able to have multiple wives, concubines, etc., and pass on their SNPs to their sons. Thus SRY2627, like L21 and U152, could very well have arisen in a Celtic or at least Beaker context.

Agreed, I used L21 as an example.  I personally agree that L21 is insular in the isles and has probably been there for a very long time due to the concentrations there.  Also, I recently pored through the different geographical projects on FTDNA, and found several U152, L21, and SRY2627 in the Lebanon and Turkey projects.  This could support your mixed types theory of the Celts if these markers in Asia Minor were there as a result of Celtic Incursions.

I'm getting so used to Facebook I started looking for the "Like" thingy when I read your post. :-)


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 07, 2013, 08:52:59 AM
All I was doing was looking at both the Pictones and Santones are a maritime People and no doubt traded and may have established settlements else where


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 07, 2013, 08:57:46 AM
Sam I'm taking the Celtic element out . If our Clade is 3000 years old what time period does this put us as far as Gaul goes? When did the first Easten Europeans invade into western Europe?

Exactly.  That would be 1000 B.C.  I'm Z220 which has the same age.  The Halstatt began about 800 B.C., so most "Celts" as historians called them, start then.  That's not to say if L21 was in Iberia, and L21 in Switzerland became Celts, then the L21 in Iberia could be considered proto-celts.  The age right before the Halstatt was the Urnfield and to me this is a much better fit for our clades of DF27, but I keep getting told that the Urnfield was more of a religion than anything else, however that was the time period that an enormous amount of hill forts started cropping up in Europe.  The map on Wiki shows the spread of the Urnfield and it seems interesting.  Other folk have linked DF27 with the Bell Beakers, but I think that is too old for our groups.

I could be wrong, but I think you see the real Celtic correlation not with any single clade but with P312 overall. L21 has good coverage for the insular Celts but gets a little shakier on the Continent. U152 is good for some of the Continental Celts, but gets really shaky in the Isles. SRY2627 is similar to U152 in that regard but also has an Isles presence.

So I'm thinking the early Celts might have been mostly undifferentiated P312 and that, later, the various clade-defining SNPs arose in their male descendants, especially in chiefs who were able to have multiple wives, concubines, etc., and pass on their SNPs to their sons. Thus SRY2627, like L21 and U152, could very well have arisen in a Celtic or at least Beaker context.

Agreed, I used L21 as an example.  I personally agree that L21 is insular in the isles and has probably been there for a very long time due to the concentrations there.  Also, I recently pored through the different geographical projects on FTDNA, and found several U152, L21, and SRY2627 in the Lebanon and Turkey projects.  This could support your mixed types theory of the Celts if these markers in Asia Minor were there as a result of Celtic Incursions.

How much of that could have been left during the Holy Crusades?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on April 07, 2013, 09:02:23 AM
All I was doing was looking at both the Pictones and Santones are a maritime People and no doubt traded and may have established settlements else where

But they could be.  If the age is around 1000 B.C., then they could have become Iberian, Belgic, Germanic, any of these things if the group already had a wide spread by the time of the Halstatt.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on April 07, 2013, 09:06:02 AM
Sam I'm taking the Celtic element out . If our Clade is 3000 years old what time period does this put us as far as Gaul goes? When did the first Easten Europeans invade into western Europe?

Exactly.  That would be 1000 B.C.  I'm Z220 which has the same age.  The Halstatt began about 800 B.C., so most "Celts" as historians called them, start then.  That's not to say if L21 was in Iberia, and L21 in Switzerland became Celts, then the L21 in Iberia could be considered proto-celts.  The age right before the Halstatt was the Urnfield and to me this is a much better fit for our clades of DF27, but I keep getting told that the Urnfield was more of a religion than anything else, however that was the time period that an enormous amount of hill forts started cropping up in Europe.  The map on Wiki shows the spread of the Urnfield and it seems interesting.  Other folk have linked DF27 with the Bell Beakers, but I think that is too old for our groups.

I could be wrong, but I think you see the real Celtic correlation not with any single clade but with P312 overall. L21 has good coverage for the insular Celts but gets a little shakier on the Continent. U152 is good for some of the Continental Celts, but gets really shaky in the Isles. SRY2627 is similar to U152 in that regard but also has an Isles presence.

So I'm thinking the early Celts might have been mostly undifferentiated P312 and that, later, the various clade-defining SNPs arose in their male descendants, especially in chiefs who were able to have multiple wives, concubines, etc., and pass on their SNPs to their sons. Thus SRY2627, like L21 and U152, could very well have arisen in a Celtic or at least Beaker context.

Agreed, I used L21 as an example.  I personally agree that L21 is insular in the isles and has probably been there for a very long time due to the concentrations there.  Also, I recently pored through the different geographical projects on FTDNA, and found several U152, L21, and SRY2627 in the Lebanon and Turkey projects.  This could support your mixed types theory of the Celts if these markers in Asia Minor were there as a result of Celtic Incursions.

How much of that could have been left during the Holy Crusades?

I'm sure that's a possibility.  You would have to compare the STR strings and specific subclades to say for sure.  We know the Halstatt spread into Asia Minor, so I would think there would be some genetic evidence found there from those incursions.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 08, 2013, 05:23:45 AM
Well Arch I will stick with SW France as the origin The diversity is greater in France all roads point to France why is that so hard to accept? I don't think Gareth would send me that unless he was pretty sure as well and like he said until it changes that is what he thinks . I don't really care to which tribe just the fact SRY2627 seems to have a birth place there is enough for me. Knowing my family may have been in place from the birth of sry2627 to our exile

Unfortunately, it's just to easy to fall into the diversity trap as it is the frequency trap (the latter of which I am guilty of). Seems like new studies are showing interesting twists to SNPEs, which if correct, essentially make it nearly impossible to find any point/region of origin, as well the molecular age of an SNP. So, I'm holding out for ancient DNA and even that is subject to change.

What I can agree with is that within fairly recent history there appears to be a lot of SRY2627 in Gascony and Catalonia, more specifically in the Pyrenees than anywhere else. Does it mean it originated there? Nope. It only means there is a high population of males that are SRY2627+ which could be attributed to genetic drift/founder effects, etc. Whatever the case, I am not denying there is a high presence in the La Rochelle region, but those numbers have not stacked up higher than the Pyrenean regions. I sincerely doubt those numbers will show otherwise anytime soon. Remember, those who tested at FTDNA for SNPs are greater than the numbers research studies have done over the course of the last 10-15 years now.

What I am asking is: Where are the SRY2627 frequencies in SW France (in particular, La Rochelle) versus the numbers found in the Midi-Pyrenees and specifically in areas such as Val d'Aran and the rest of Iberia? Factor in the numerous studies and I think it becomes apparent if we go by the numbers only, that Iberia would be the point of origin for SRY2627. If we go by diversity, then we should be looking towards Poland.

Either choice is most likely not correct--we need ancient DNA for a better answer than what we get from frequency and diversity distribution. We simply don't have the kind of numbers of SRY2627 to make a good guess because our SNP is too widespread.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 08, 2013, 06:22:01 AM
What is your idea of   "within fairly recent history" ? Why does Gareth think it's origin to be France ? Didier and myself are seperated by a couple thousand years at least and both are of French blood


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on April 08, 2013, 10:45:36 AM
Well Arch I will stick with SW France as the origin The diversity is greater in France all roads point to France why is that so hard to accept? I don't think Gareth would send me that unless he was pretty sure as well and like he said until it changes that is what he thinks . I don't really care to which tribe just the fact SRY2627 seems to have a birth place there is enough for me. Knowing my family may have been in place from the birth of sry2627 to our exile

Unfortunately, it's just to easy to fall into the diversity trap as it is the frequency trap (the latter of which I am guilty of). Seems like new studies are showing interesting twists to SNPEs, which if correct, essentially make it nearly impossible to find any point/region of origin, as well the molecular age of an SNP. So, I'm holding out for ancient DNA and even that is subject to change.

What I can agree with is that within fairly recent history there appears to be a lot of SRY2627 in Gascony and Catalonia, more specifically in the Pyrenees than anywhere else. Does it mean it originated there? Nope. It only means there is a high population of males that are SRY2627+ which could be attributed to genetic drift/founder effects, etc. Whatever the case, I am not denying there is a high presence in the La Rochelle region, but those numbers have not stacked up higher than the Pyrenean regions. I sincerely doubt those numbers will show otherwise anytime soon. Remember, those who tested at FTDNA for SNPs are greater than the numbers research studies have done over the course of the last 10-15 years now.

What I am asking is: Where are the SRY2627 frequencies in SW France (in particular, La Rochelle) versus the numbers found in the Midi-Pyrenees and specifically in areas such as Val d'Aran and the rest of Iberia? Factor in the numerous studies and I think it becomes apparent if we go by the numbers only, that Iberia would be the point of origin for SRY2627. If we go by diversity, then we should be looking towards Poland.

Either choice is most likely not correct--we need ancient DNA for a better answer than what we get from frequency and diversity distribution. We simply don't have the kind of numbers of SRY2627 to make a good guess because our SNP is too widespread.

Arch

I think it is clear that those of us with French ancestry (and possibly English) can presume that our ancestors at one time lived in southwestern France.  It would be a natural migration pattern to move up the western coast of France to areas like La Rochelle, Brittany, and perhaps even the southwestern coast of England.  For that matter, keep in mind that La Rochelle was a port city and people came there from all over France.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 08, 2013, 10:53:19 AM
My 8th Great Grandfather Jacques Brousse was a leather merchant from Cognac  His Wife Sara Cornu came from Talliebourg


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 08, 2013, 01:54:46 PM
Well Arch I will stick with SW France as the origin The diversity is greater in France all roads point to France why is that so hard to accept? I don't think Gareth would send me that unless he was pretty sure as well and like he said until it changes that is what he thinks . I don't really care to which tribe just the fact SRY2627 seems to have a birth place there is enough for me. Knowing my family may have been in place from the birth of sry2627 to our exile

Unfortunately, it's just to easy to fall into the diversity trap as it is the frequency trap (the latter of which I am guilty of). Seems like new studies are showing interesting twists to SNPEs, which if correct, essentially make it nearly impossible to find any point/region of origin, as well the molecular age of an SNP. So, I'm holding out for ancient DNA and even that is subject to change.

What I can agree with is that within fairly recent history there appears to be a lot of SRY2627 in Gascony and Catalonia, more specifically in the Pyrenees than anywhere else. Does it mean it originated there? Nope. It only means there is a high population of males that are SRY2627+ which could be attributed to genetic drift/founder effects, etc. Whatever the case, I am not denying there is a high presence in the La Rochelle region, but those numbers have not stacked up higher than the Pyrenean regions. I sincerely doubt those numbers will show otherwise anytime soon. Remember, those who tested at FTDNA for SNPs are greater than the numbers research studies have done over the course of the last 10-15 years now.

What I am asking is: Where are the SRY2627 frequencies in SW France (in particular, La Rochelle) versus the numbers found in the Midi-Pyrenees and specifically in areas such as Val d'Aran and the rest of Iberia? Factor in the numerous studies and I think it becomes apparent if we go by the numbers only, that Iberia would be the point of origin for SRY2627. If we go by diversity, then we should be looking towards Poland.

Either choice is most likely not correct--we need ancient DNA for a better answer than what we get from frequency and diversity distribution. We simply don't have the kind of numbers of SRY2627 to make a good guess because our SNP is too widespread.

Arch

I think it is clear that those of us with French ancestry (and possibly English) can presume that our ancestors at one time lived in southwestern France.  It would be a natural migration pattern to move up the western coast of France to areas like La Rochelle, Brittany, and perhaps even the southwestern coast of England.  For that matter, keep in mind that La Rochelle was a port city and people came there from all over France.

I agree and that's a very fortunate position. No doubt the records even back up the genetic data and that's good. But I think it's a bit of a stretch to state SRY2627 was born in this region of France just as much as it's a bit of stretch to state that it was born in Iberia-we simply do not know where SRY2627 originated from. If we go the route of looking at diversity within SRY2627 DYS490=10, that alone should point to a more easterly location of Bourges. If I was a betting man, I would say Northern Italy is closer to SRY2627's point of origin. At least my closest GD in Europe is Julliet. And that of Julliet's seems to be nearest to SRY2627 folks in Southern Germany, Northern Italy and Switzerland.  If we want to ascribe a possibility of Helvetii, I can perhaps agree that SRY2627 would make up a good portion but of an earlier stock whatever tribe that may be.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on April 08, 2013, 02:16:55 PM

What I am asking is: Where are the SRY2627 frequencies in SW France (in particular, La Rochelle) versus the numbers found in the Midi-Pyrenees and specifically in areas such as Val d'Aran and the rest of Iberia? Factor in the numerous studies and I think it becomes apparent if we go by the numbers only, that Iberia would be the point of origin for SRY2627. If we go by diversity, then we should be looking towards Poland.

Either choice is most likely not correct--we need ancient DNA for a better answer than what we get from frequency and diversity distribution. We simply don't have the kind of numbers of SRY2627 to make a good guess because our SNP is too widespread.

Arch

A 2012 study by Martinez-Cruz found the following percentages of SRY2627:  7% in the three French departments of the Pays de Basque, 16% in Bearn (France), 14% in Bigorre (France), 7% in Chalosse (France), 6% in the Basque regions of Spain, 15% in La Rioja (Spain), and 19% in northern Aragon (Spain).  A separate study found 8% in the city of Toulouse (Midi-Pyrenees).

Another way to break down this data is by department. 
Those of France= Pyrenees-Atlantiques, 9%; Hautes-Pyrenees, 14%; Landes, 7%; Haute-Garonne, 8%.
Those of Spain= Cantabria, 1%; La Rioja, 15%; Basque country, 6%; Aragon, 19%.

Clearly the highest percentages are found on both sides of the Pyrenees, clustering between the Basque country and Toulouse.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: ArmandoR1b on April 09, 2013, 06:17:35 AM

What I am asking is: Where are the SRY2627 frequencies in SW France (in particular, La Rochelle) versus the numbers found in the Midi-Pyrenees and specifically in areas such as Val d'Aran and the rest of Iberia? Factor in the numerous studies and I think it becomes apparent if we go by the numbers only, that Iberia would be the point of origin for SRY2627. If we go by diversity, then we should be looking towards Poland.

Either choice is most likely not correct--we need ancient DNA for a better answer than what we get from frequency and diversity distribution. We simply don't have the kind of numbers of SRY2627 to make a good guess because our SNP is too widespread.

Arch

A 2012 study by Martinez-Cruz found the following percentages of SRY2627:  7% in the three French departments of the Pays de Basque, 16% in Bearn (France), 14% in Bigorre (France), 7% in Chalosse (France), 6% in the Basque regions of Spain, 15% in La Rioja (Spain), and 19% in northern Aragon (Spain).  A separate study found 8% in the city of Toulouse (Midi-Pyrenees).

Another way to break down this data is by department. 
Those of France= Pyrenees-Atlantiques, 9%; Hautes-Pyrenees, 14%; Landes, 7%; Haute-Garonne, 8%.
Those of Spain= Cantabria, 1%; La Rioja, 15%; Basque country, 6%; Aragon, 19%.

Clearly the highest percentages are found on both sides of the Pyrenees, clustering between the Basque country and Toulouse.

However, that does not tell us if that is where the point of origin is or if that is where SRY2627 prospered. An archaeological find of human remains of ancient DNA would tell us it existed in a specific location within a certain time frame but it still wouldn't tell us if that location was the point of origin.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on April 09, 2013, 07:33:34 PM
However, that does not tell us if that is where the point of origin is or if that is where SRY2627 prospered. An archaeological find of human remains of ancient DNA would tell us it existed in a specific location within a certain time frame but it still wouldn't tell us if that location was the point of origin.

True, but I am not really looking for the point of origin (if that can ever be known).


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 10, 2013, 01:14:02 AM

What I am asking is: Where are the SRY2627 frequencies in SW France (in particular, La Rochelle) versus the numbers found in the Midi-Pyrenees and specifically in areas such as Val d'Aran and the rest of Iberia? Factor in the numerous studies and I think it becomes apparent if we go by the numbers only, that Iberia would be the point of origin for SRY2627. If we go by diversity, then we should be looking towards Poland.

Either choice is most likely not correct--we need ancient DNA for a better answer than what we get from frequency and diversity distribution. We simply don't have the kind of numbers of SRY2627 to make a good guess because our SNP is too widespread.

Arch

A 2012 study by Martinez-Cruz found the following percentages of SRY2627:  7% in the three French departments of the Pays de Basque, 16% in Bearn (France), 14% in Bigorre (France), 7% in Chalosse (France), 6% in the Basque regions of Spain, 15% in La Rioja (Spain), and 19% in northern Aragon (Spain).  A separate study found 8% in the city of Toulouse (Midi-Pyrenees).

Another way to break down this data is by department. 
Those of France= Pyrenees-Atlantiques, 9%; Hautes-Pyrenees, 14%; Landes, 7%; Haute-Garonne, 8%.
Those of Spain= Cantabria, 1%; La Rioja, 15%; Basque country, 6%; Aragon, 19%.

Clearly the highest percentages are found on both sides of the Pyrenees, clustering between the Basque country and Toulouse.

This study as well subsequent studies seem to support the study of high frequencies of SRY2627 in the Pyrenees. However, as Mike pointed out most of them have lower diversity than SRY2627 outside of the Pyrenees. The 19% in Aragon is in the Huesca Province which borders Catalonia/Val d'Aran. So the highest percentages so far are within the region of Val d'Aran if we want to focus on the numbers. The numbers of SRY2627 pretty much taper off from this region in all directions but more so in the region of France than in Spain. Huesca Province frequency is right around the same numbers Alt Urgell and Cerdanya.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 10, 2013, 03:41:02 AM
What is your idea of   "within fairly recent history" ? Why does Gareth think it's origin to be France ? Didier and myself are seperated by a couple thousand years at least and both are of French blood


Sorry for the delayed response. Fairly recent history means within the last 500 years as I interpret it for DNA since the SNPs mutations are estimated to be approx. every 1k years. To add to this SRY2627 confusion, my 23andMe results label me as British and Irish at some pretty high percentages (29% British and Irish), (15% French and German), everything is less than 5%. So, what does that mean? My ancestry must be deeper in Britain than continental Europe of recent modernity. However, at some time my branch arrived to Britain by boat from somewhere in Europe. My guess is that it's most likely from Belgium seeing as how my closest 25 marker matches are in Essex near Colchester which is linked to the earliest known Celtic kingdoms in Britain. Now, this could get interesting. Seeing as Romans were moving up the coast defeating the Veneti, etc. there is always a possibility of either recruitment of Pictones and even Santones helping the Romans. Also, we must consider the possibility that quite a few Roman legions and cohorts arrived to Britain that were originally based out of Hispania Tarraconesis. Remember SRY2627 numbers are still more prevalent in Catalonia than in France and Tarrgona (Tarraco) is in modern day Catalonia. I am also aware that cohorts from Gaul arrived to Hadrian's Wall and so they are not being excluded, but the earliest arrivals to Britain are the legions. Hispania IX as one of the most famous and they seem to be about everywhere in Western Europe and parts of Central Europe. My ancestry could have arrived to Britain with the Roman expansion or it could have been later with the colonization of Gascony (if my ancestry can be traced back to continental Europe). Another option I have considered is looking at the Hundred Years War and how Venice Italy plays a key role in providing yew bow staves that are of greater quality than the famous Spanish Yew. Seeing as how my surname has some connection to archery, forestry, etc. and seeing how I have a real low GD person in Vicenza in or near the Sud Tyrol in Venice, I see possibilities. If I reach back, it appears that ancestry in Vicenza moved in from Austria or Southern Germany as possible woodworkers (I'm guessing). When I research Val d'Aran I noticed a group of people called Cagots, a derogatory term used towards Germans or those believed to be of Visigothic descent. They were treated poorly wherever they went and considered lepers, etc. I find it fascinating that the Vicenza region of Italy consider themselves Cimbri (Germano-Celtic or Celto-Germanic however you want to slice that puppy).  Not really well liked by the Romans or perhaps even by the Italians (I don't know). Again we end up back in Germania with my surname, my closest GDs (excepting Julliet). I don't think his ancestry is deep in the region of the Vienne or nearby departments. His GD is closer to Alberti than mine. I think it's obvious that our subclade arrived to Britain no earlier than the Late Bronze Age, so the only other option is to consider an Atlantic Maritime Trade-Exchange Network which I believe is highly influenced by the Bell Beakers at the mouth of the Rhine in Belgium and also near Lisbon, Portugal around the Tagus R. etc. Seeing as how I have very little composition of southern European DNA in me and most everything points more towards the north, it becomes more evident that my line must have originated somewhere outside of France or Gaul. Belgica? I just don't know. What I am not "feeling" is the French connection as much as I have tried. Perhaps the best guess if there was no choice outside of France would be Gascony, as they are essentially the same as Aranese in language and in culture to some degree. Somehow I don't think my family lineage within SRY2627 ever originated in France but rather Belgium or in Germany. Consider yourself very fortunate that you have found your deep ancestry to the continent with some decent records. I wouldn't get too wrapped up in them as they relate to modern distribution of the subclade and the current frequencies (as always). I have my pet theories, ideas, and so forth but I know that I can't be that committed to them if I want to find the right answers. I'm hoping we can get to the bottom of this perhaps some day when ancient DNA is found and we can at least get more focused in a region of possible origin at a more certain date instead of relying on statistics to flesh this whole issue out.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 11, 2013, 03:44:13 AM

What I am asking is: Where are the SRY2627 frequencies in SW France (in particular, La Rochelle) versus the numbers found in the Midi-Pyrenees and specifically in areas such as Val d'Aran and the rest of Iberia? Factor in the numerous studies and I think it becomes apparent if we go by the numbers only, that Iberia would be the point of origin for SRY2627. If we go by diversity, then we should be looking towards Poland.

Either choice is most likely not correct--we need ancient DNA for a better answer than what we get from frequency and diversity distribution. We simply don't have the kind of numbers of SRY2627 to make a good guess because our SNP is too widespread.

Arch

A 2012 study by Martinez-Cruz found the following percentages of SRY2627:  7% in the three French departments of the Pays de Basque, 16% in Bearn (France), 14% in Bigorre (France), 7% in Chalosse (France), 6% in the Basque regions of Spain, 15% in La Rioja (Spain), and 19% in northern Aragon (Spain).  A separate study found 8% in the city of Toulouse (Midi-Pyrenees).

Another way to break down this data is by department. 
Those of France= Pyrenees-Atlantiques, 9%; Hautes-Pyrenees, 14%; Landes, 7%; Haute-Garonne, 8%.
Those of Spain= Cantabria, 1%; La Rioja, 15%; Basque country, 6%; Aragon, 19%.

Clearly the highest percentages are found on both sides of the Pyrenees, clustering between the Basque country and Toulouse.

However, that does not tell us if that is where the point of origin is or if that is where SRY2627 prospered. An archaeological find of human remains of ancient DNA would tell us it existed in a specific location within a certain time frame but it still wouldn't tell us if that location was the point of origin.

Yes, agreed. Ancient DNA will not 100% confirm place of origin. However, it gets us closer to where the subclade possibly originated from. Though we will still run into issues of fast migration whether by horse, boat, or very dedicated hoofing. What it would help out with is providing a date/timestamp of where SRY2627 was in any particular region of Europe at any given particular point in time. So, if we find some SRY2627+ in Ireland and his artifacts are dated to around 1300 BCE, then we will know the subclade made quite a rapid expansion from its point of origin on the mainland (if indeed that is the point of origin-you just never know). I would get a good chuckle if SRY2627's point of origin is in Britain or Ireland.

Arch




Title: Should Val d'Aran be considered part of Northern Europe?
Post by: Arch Y. on April 11, 2013, 04:04:27 AM
I had this perplexing thought cross my mind several times seeing as how 23andMe rates me as having a significant Northern European ancestry in my genetic data. In honesty, I don't think Val d'Aran should be considered as a part of Iberia geologically and geographically--leaving the linguistic and political issues out. I'm not claiming any ancestry to Val d'Aran specifically but I thought it's intriguing to say the least. The region has long been a part of Aquitania long before the Romans messed everything up  with borders. However, I think the Romans kept Val d'Aran as a part of Aquitania or the Novembpopulana (the nine tribes or peoples). It was really within the Medieval period that its borders become more associated with the Iberian polities prior to this mainly it was more part of the Comminges and earlier Convenae which is primarily the Couserans region from what I gather. This is technically Septimania in earlier times. It almost seems to be a perfect match of location for SRY2627 based on the long list of data of SRY2627 high frequencies in Catalonia and the highest frequencies of SRY2627 being in the Midi-Pyrenees. I wished the studies were more focused on the lower departments near Luchon instead of the larger regions. Whatever the case, southern France holds the highest frequencies and in particular it seems like departments near the Pyrenees in Aquitaine have a good showing. Back to the point, should Val d'Aran be considered Northern Europe?

Arch


Title: Re: Should Val d'Aran be considered part of Northern Europe?
Post by: Webb on April 11, 2013, 09:34:53 AM
I had this perplexing thought cross my mind several times seeing as how 23andMe rates me as having a significant Northern European ancestry in my genetic data. In honesty, I don't think Val d'Aran should be considered as a part of Iberia geologically and geographically--leaving the linguistic and political issues out. I'm not claiming any ancestry to Val d'Aran specifically but I thought it's intriguing to say the least. The region has long been a part of Aquitania long before the Romans messed everything up  with borders. However, I think the Romans kept Val d'Aran as a part of Aquitania or the Novembpopulana (the nine tribes or peoples). It was really within the Medieval period that its borders become more associated with the Iberian polities prior to this mainly it was more part of the Comminges and earlier Convenae which is primarily the Couserans region from what I gather. This is technically Septimania in earlier times. It almost seems to be a perfect match of location for SRY2627 based on the long list of data of SRY2627 high frequencies in Catalonia and the highest frequencies of SRY2627 being in the Midi-Pyrenees. I wished the studies were more focused on the lower departments near Luchon instead of the larger regions. Whatever the case, southern France holds the highest frequencies and in particular it seems like departments near the Pyrenees in Aquitaine have a good showing. Back to the point, should Val d'Aran be considered Northern Europe?

Arch

Arch, I think we are going to see that the Pyrenees is to Z196 clades what Northern Italy is to U152 and Ireland is to L21.  If Ireland is a pooling place for L21 and Northern Italy a pooling place for U152, then if you apply the common denominator theory to Z196, it would mean that most likely the Pyrenees is the pooling place for Z196, not necessarily origin.  As many of the Irish lineages are coming in as DF27+ but Z196- you would have to assume that it is possible then that the opposite applies.  Iberia might have the largest amount of Z196-, while the Pyrenees and west, north west might be where Z196 starts, which could mean a origin for Z196 and clades in the Pyrenees.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on April 11, 2013, 09:52:20 AM
I am still debating about frequency and variation as possible points of origin for any mutation for that matter, I mean the point of origin could be on a distant third location that became extinct and only survived away from it's epicenter.
Back to frequency or variation I still think that frequency has more weight just by logic. Variation results I think is more a sign of "when" it got there rather than being born there...and low variation where frequency is high is just a simple drift of major lineages, when enough people got tested perhaps high variation would show up.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 11, 2013, 10:41:42 AM
How many years ago can you estimate the SRY2627 line in Denmark separated from Say my Group A0  ?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 11, 2013, 06:42:21 PM
How many years ago can you estimate the SRY2627 line in Denmark separated from Say my Group A0  ?

The Danish SRY2627 is DYS490=12, if I'm not mistaken. So it was in existence before your line came about.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on April 11, 2013, 08:59:37 PM
How many years ago can you estimate the SRY2627 line in Denmark separated from Say my Group A0  ?

The Danish SRY2627 is DYS490=12, if I'm not mistaken. So it was in existence before your line came about.

Which goes back to the Pyrenees being a pooling point for a number of possible Scandanavian/Germanic/ Belgic incursions into the region.  Why is Z196 such an enigma?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 12, 2013, 01:51:52 AM
How many years ago can you estimate the SRY2627 line in Denmark separated from Say my Group A0  ?

The Danish SRY2627 is DYS490=12, if I'm not mistaken. So it was in existence before your line came about.

Which goes back to the Pyrenees being a pooling point for a number of possible Scandanavian/Germanic/ Belgic incursions into the region.  Why is Z196 such an enigma?

Danish SRY2627 possibly represents an origin within the late bronze age culture. We have SRY2627 in Sweden at DYS 490=12. Yes this is the older variant of SRY2627 but not by many years. Now I would love to have this answered: We have more SRY2627 DYS 490=12 in Iberia than we do DYS 490=10 from FTDNA results. Seeing as how DYS490=12 is older where do we pinpoint possible origins? We do we see a larger number of DYS490=10 in Aquitaine and Vienne Department in France so one could only guess that nearby the Pyrenees the DYS490 split occurred. Of course, now we have Z262 that we must contend with. Hopefully we better results or a better showing for this SNP as it could only help give a clearer picture of where SRY2627 possibly originated.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 12, 2013, 02:00:55 AM
I am still debating about frequency and variation as possible points of origin for any mutation for that matter, I mean the point of origin could be on a distant third location that became extinct and only survived away from it's epicenter.
Back to frequency or variation I still think that frequency has more weight just by logic. Variation results I think is more a sign of "when" it got there rather than being born there...and low variation where frequency is high is just a simple drift of major lineages, when enough people got tested perhaps high variation would show up.


I see your point. There are just so many variables that could explain why a higher diversity SNP shows up far outside the range of high frequency(ies). So far, as of today. and that I am aware of, SRY2627 only sort of pools up in the Pyrenees region. Pretty much nowhere else at least for now or for what the studies have shown. Keep in mind when other studies are done, SRY2627 is usually included in the tests even though it's not the target SNP being researched. There is always a possibility of far flung SRY2627+ with high diversity that may have reached their current destinations within recent history. However, if we start seeing even a bunch of scattered high variant SRY2627 outside the Central Pyrenees, then maybe that's a hint. I have a difficult time understanding how a higher population that everybody has a low diversity and nobody within that high frequency group could match up close to the  distant and higher variant group--that doesn't make sense to have jumps like that.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 12, 2013, 11:26:08 AM
If you do a web search onSRY2627 you will find a page where one person was trying to link SRY 2627 to a Jewish Migration. On The Jewish page he posted he did not get much support for the idea


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on April 12, 2013, 07:34:27 PM
I am still debating about frequency and variation as possible points of origin for any mutation for that matter, I mean the point of origin could be on a distant third location that became extinct and only survived away from it's epicenter.
Back to frequency or variation I still think that frequency has more weight just by logic. Variation results I think is more a sign of "when" it got there rather than being born there...and low variation where frequency is high is just a simple drift of major lineages, when enough people got tested perhaps high variation would show up.


I see your point. There are just so many variables that could explain why a higher diversity SNP shows up far outside the range of high frequency(ies). So far, as of today. and that I am aware of, SRY2627 only sort of pools up in the Pyrenees region. Pretty much nowhere else at least for now or for what the studies have shown. Keep in mind when other studies are done, SRY2627 is usually included in the tests even though it's not the target SNP being researched. There is always a possibility of far flung SRY2627+ with high diversity that may have reached their current destinations within recent history. However, if we start seeing even a bunch of scattered high variant SRY2627 outside the Central Pyrenees, then maybe that's a hint. I have a difficult time understanding how a higher population that everybody has a low diversity and nobody within that high frequency group could match up close to the  distant and higher variant group--that doesn't make sense to have jumps like that.

Arch

Arch,
I have always enjoyed your leveled approach and respect what you have to say about our "little branch " although sometimes I have to admit I feel like you know more about my own birth place than I do...and I mean it. LOL.
Back to origins and spread of out twig, we do not stick out form P312 but we are always there, macro and micro sort of speak for P312 but I do think that frequency can really skew things up as far as low variance taken as a whole, reason being it is just a mathematical definition averaging, where frequency is high is just not right.Period.We are just using the prolific branches as the guideline.
Taken as a whole. I do think that the only weight that variance has  over frequency is that is saying...hey frequency is not proof of origins, which is rightly so but then we get pop ups of possible origins based on variance all over which I think is misleading.

anyhow  and trying to make this short... my lead is now Italy for our ancestry origins... but then the Bell Beakers are lurking in the background lol

Cheers





Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 13, 2013, 02:05:08 AM
I am still debating about frequency and variation as possible points of origin for any mutation for that matter, I mean the point of origin could be on a distant third location that became extinct and only survived away from it's epicenter.
Back to frequency or variation I still think that frequency has more weight just by logic. Variation results I think is more a sign of "when" it got there rather than being born there...and low variation where frequency is high is just a simple drift of major lineages, when enough people got tested perhaps high variation would show up.


I see your point. There are just so many variables that could explain why a higher diversity SNP shows up far outside the range of high frequency(ies). So far, as of today. and that I am aware of, SRY2627 only sort of pools up in the Pyrenees region. Pretty much nowhere else at least for now or for what the studies have shown. Keep in mind when other studies are done, SRY2627 is usually included in the tests even though it's not the target SNP being researched. There is always a possibility of far flung SRY2627+ with high diversity that may have reached their current destinations within recent history. However, if we start seeing even a bunch of scattered high variant SRY2627 outside the Central Pyrenees, then maybe that's a hint. I have a difficult time understanding how a higher population that everybody has a low diversity and nobody within that high frequency group could match up close to the  distant and higher variant group--that doesn't make sense to have jumps like that.

Arch

Arch,
I have always enjoyed your leveled approach and respect what you have to say about our "little branch " although sometimes I have to admit I feel like you know more about my own birth place than I do...and I mean it. LOL.
Back to origins and spread of out twig, we do not stick out form P312 but we are always there, macro and micro sort of speak for P312 but I do think that frequency can really skew things up as far as low variance taken as a whole, reason being it is just a mathematical definition averaging, where frequency is high is just not right.Period.We are just using the prolific branches as the guideline.
Taken as a whole. I do think that the only weight that variance has  over frequency is that is saying...hey frequency is not proof of origins, which is rightly so but then we get pop ups of possible origins based on variance all over which I think is misleading.

anyhow  and trying to make this short... my lead is now Italy for our ancestry origins... but then the Bell Beakers are lurking in the background lol

Cheers



With any certainty we can say SRY2627 arose during the Late Bronze Age, not too far after the Bell Beakers, nonetheless outside that time frame. 1300 BCE is the best est. and has been well supported. I feel confident Hurles had his stuff together way back when this was relatively a new field. His estimates have repeatedly been supported by other research except for the study that placed SRY2627 in the Neolithic. Though they did get it right in regards to the high frequency in Val d'Aran.

I keep looking towards Northern Italy and Southern Germany with Switzerland and Austria as well Liechtenstein. Those regions seem the most likely point of origin but I'm not ready to get hung up on it just yet.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 13, 2013, 02:09:52 AM
If you do a web search onSRY2627 you will find a page where one person was trying to link SRY 2627 to a Jewish Migration. On The Jewish page he posted he did not get much support for the idea

Perhaps his branch but Jewish ancestry is unique in many ways. Most SRY2627 would not follow under that category. What I do think is a real possibility is the connection with the spread of Roman influence in Spain, Gaul and eventually Britain. I can't wrap my head around the Swedish, Polish and Ukrainian finds of SRY2627. They seem out of place but nonetheless pretty interesting.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 13, 2013, 03:06:45 AM


Arch,
I have always enjoyed your leveled approach and respect what you have to say about our "little branch " although sometimes I have to admit I feel like you know more about my own birth place than I do...and I mean it. LOL.
Back to origins and spread of out twig, we do not stick out form P312 but we are always there, macro and micro sort of speak for P312 but I do think that frequency can really skew things up as far as low variance taken as a whole, reason being it is just a mathematical definition averaging, where frequency is high is just not right.Period.We are just using the prolific branches as the guideline.
Taken as a whole. I do think that the only weight that variance has  over frequency is that is saying...hey frequency is not proof of origins, which is rightly so but then we get pop ups of possible origins based on variance all over which I think is misleading.

anyhow  and trying to make this short... my lead is now Italy for our ancestry origins... but then the Bell Beakers are lurking in the background lol

Cheers

[/quote]

Thats kinda funny.. Out of our DF27 group I'd say most of us are pretty wirey and quick to get in an argument lol.. I of course have never engaged in such matters :)

Must be that Iberian machismo!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on April 13, 2013, 07:27:07 PM


Arch,
I have always enjoyed your leveled approach and respect what you have to say about our "little branch " although sometimes I have to admit I feel like you know more about my own birth place than I do...and I mean it. LOL.
Back to origins and spread of out twig, we do not stick out form P312 but we are always there, macro and micro sort of speak for P312 but I do think that frequency can really skew things up as far as low variance taken as a whole, reason being it is just a mathematical definition averaging, where frequency is high is just not right.Period.We are just using the prolific branches as the guideline.
Taken as a whole. I do think that the only weight that variance has  over frequency is that is saying...hey frequency is not proof of origins, which is rightly so but then we get pop ups of possible origins based on variance all over which I think is misleading.

anyhow  and trying to make this short... my lead is now Italy for our ancestry origins... but then the Bell Beakers are lurking in the background lol

Cheers


Thats kinda funny.. Out of our DF27 group I'd say most of us are pretty wirey and quick to get in an argument lol.. I of course have never engaged in such matters :)

Must be that Iberian machismo!
[/quote]

Absolutely SamIsaack. I am all for some fun in diverging opinions, after all we are all scattered to begin with.., LoL.
Funny, cause sometimes I kind of like not knowing, that way I can imagine so many far flung distant travelings...Maybe is time for a poll about origins, I kind of miss that from DNA Forums.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 14, 2013, 11:42:50 AM
I have no affiliations in  Italy my A0 group are all French even on my step mutation chart for haplotype  only list French England and other European country's not Italy. If it came from Italy why are there not more now from there


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 14, 2013, 12:15:27 PM
I have no affiliations in  Italy my A0 group are all French even on my step mutation chart for haplotype  only list French England and other European country's not Italy. If it came from Italy why are there not more now from there

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I don't have any known, recent connection to Italy either. I'm not saying that I ever will, but at the same time, I may have an as of yet undiscovered genetic "cousin" in that region as well.

Most of your close matches are going to have ancestry within the same general region as yourself. You need to look at higher than a few step matches, that aren't too wildly different from your own to get a better idea of your y-lines ancestral trail.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 14, 2013, 12:24:44 PM


Arch,
I have always enjoyed your leveled approach and respect what you have to say about our "little branch " although sometimes I have to admit I feel like you know more about my own birth place than I do...and I mean it. LOL.
Back to origins and spread of out twig, we do not stick out form P312 but we are always there, macro and micro sort of speak for P312 but I do think that frequency can really skew things up as far as low variance taken as a whole, reason being it is just a mathematical definition averaging, where frequency is high is just not right.Period.We are just using the prolific branches as the guideline.
Taken as a whole. I do think that the only weight that variance has  over frequency is that is saying...hey frequency is not proof of origins, which is rightly so but then we get pop ups of possible origins based on variance all over which I think is misleading.

anyhow  and trying to make this short... my lead is now Italy for our ancestry origins... but then the Bell Beakers are lurking in the background lol

Cheers


Thats kinda funny.. Out of our DF27 group I'd say most of us are pretty wirey and quick to get in an argument lol.. I of course have never engaged in such matters :)

Must be that Iberian machismo!

Absolutely SamIsaack. I am all for some fun in diverging opinions, after all we are all scattered to begin with.., LoL.
Funny, cause sometimes I kind of like not knowing, that way I can imagine so many far flung distant travelings...Maybe is time for a poll about origins, I kind of miss that from DNA Forums.

[/quote]

I enjoy arguing too! I simply can't escape it! Everyone on either side of my family are all stuborn and argumentative as all get out.

I feel the same way about not knowing and going through various cultures and peoples all within the same day! I made the same general point when I was more or less accused of not likeing the the idea of being Iberian, thus that was the reason why I was arguing. (different website)

I want to see all of the pieces before I try to assemble them. So I'm not going to just accept something without questioning it till I'm pretty much blue in the face!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 14, 2013, 03:13:12 PM
Here are my one step mutations from FTDNA


Genetic Distance -1
Country  Match Total  Country Total  Percentage  Comments 
Czech Republic  1  676  0.1%   
England  6  23931  < 0.1 %   
France  2  3366  0.1%   
Germany  2  12073  < 0.1 %   
Ireland  2  14064  < 0.1 %   
Portugal  1  786  0.1%  Azores (1) 
Spain  1  3351  < 0.1 %   
Switzerland  1  1844  0.1%   
United Kingdom  3  10657  < 0.1 %  Shetland Islands (1) 
United States 


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 14, 2013, 04:16:27 PM
Here are my one step mutations from FTDNA


Genetic Distance -1
Country  Match Total  Country Total  Percentage  Comments 
Czech Republic  1  676  0.1%   
England  6  23931  < 0.1 %   
France  2  3366  0.1%   
Germany  2  12073  < 0.1 %   
Ireland  2  14064  < 0.1 %   
Portugal  1  786  0.1%  Azores (1) 
Spain  1  3351  < 0.1 %   
Switzerland  1  1844  0.1%   
United Kingdom  3  10657  < 0.1 %  Shetland Islands (1) 
United States 


Are these people SRY2627 confirmed? How many markers were you comparing against?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 14, 2013, 07:09:36 PM
I don't know Sam I did not look nothing up this is part of my FTDNA page it gives no other info


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 14, 2013, 10:41:48 PM
I don't know Sam I did not look nothing up this is part of my FTDNA page it gives no other info


My only 25 marker matches show up at 2 or steps in Essex, England. Yes, it's about pretty much useless what FTDNA shows on its marker matches. Appleby is my only match at 25 and none of them as I am aware are SRY2627. In fact, I'm glad as the project administrator seemed a little snippy at me at first. Sometimes there's quite a benefit to uselessness by ignoring it and never returning to the issue at hand.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Isidro on April 15, 2013, 11:08:29 AM
I have no affiliations in  Italy my A0 group are all French even on my step mutation chart for haplotype  only list French England and other European country's not Italy. If it came from Italy why are there not more now from there

Perhaps there is a missing link, not tested yet or never survived. My matches also veer strongly to Scotland and Scandinavia.
I don't know how far back we can trace Z196 or DF27 for that matter, if we assume that R1b came from the East, it could have taken many routes, so one of the question is along these routes when SRY2627 came to be in existence.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 15, 2013, 11:23:02 AM
These are not my y marker matches it was under haplotype matches


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 15, 2013, 11:36:13 AM
Here are Y search results I only picke genetic distance of one. I don't see how this helps with most not having their haplotype.


Compare User ID Pedigree Last Name Origin Haplogroup Tested With Markers Compared Genetic Distance 
 VK94K   Bruce Cognac, France  Unknown  Family Tree DNA  37 0
 7NJVQ   Bruce France  R1b1a2a1a1b5a (tested)  Family Tree DNA  37 0
 7BSHM   Bruce Unknown  R1b1a2a1a1b5a (tested)  Family Tree DNA  37 0
 Z4KHJ   Bruce Unknown  Unknown  Family Tree DNA  25 0
 QJUXJ   Klug Germany  Unknown  Other - ISFG  15 1
 Z9F22 Show Weston Newick, Sussex, England  Unknown  Other - Sorenson  13 1
 4R5EY   Bruce France  Unknown  Family Tree DNA  12 0
 48Z4Q   GREGOR Cornwall, England  R1b1*  Family Tree DNA  10 1
 EWXE8   L44 Unknown  R1b1a2a1a1a4a1*  Family Tree DNA  9 1
 9D53B   Aelfwald Unknown  Unknown  Family Tree DNA  9 1
 RY78M   Verge Amposta, Spain  Unknown  Oxford Ancestors  9 1
 DTRDF   Q-early 220/9 America Indians & Ancient Northern Europe, America  Unknown  Family Tree DNA  9 1
 65974   RIDOUT Sherborne, Dorset, England  Unknown  Oxford Ancestors  9 1
 XREKB   R-U198 superfamily a Unknown  Unknown  Family Tree DNA  8 1
 FHGJ3   U198 finder Unknown  R1b1a2a1a1a1*  Other - Ethnoancestry ; FTDNA  8 1
 SCAZ6   Winters slow markers Unknown  Unknown  Family Tree DNA  8 0
 TDKYT   R1b - DalRaida Scotts-Irish 687 persons on 8 markers, Argyllshire, Scotland  Unknown  Family Tree DNA  8 1
 HK7G3   Modal DF41-b Unknown  R1b1a2a1a1b4*  Family Tree DNA  8 1
 XMEXA   Barlow Slow Markers Unknown  Unknown  Family Tree DNA  8 1
 MGXXN   Frisian Kent, England  Unknown  Family Tree 


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 15, 2013, 11:41:16 AM
All the Bruce's on the list are my known cousins


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on April 15, 2013, 12:08:28 PM
I have no affiliations in  Italy my A0 group are all French even on my step mutation chart for haplotype  only list French England and other European country's not Italy. If it came from Italy why are there not more now from there

Perhaps there is a missing link, not tested yet or never survived. My matches also veer strongly to Scotland and Scandinavia.
I don't know how far back we can trace Z196 or DF27 for that matter, if we assume that R1b came from the East, it could have taken many routes, so one of the question is along these routes when SRY2627 came to be in existence.

I am leaning to some sort of migration of Z196 from Iberia up along the coast of France into the Netherlands and from there into Scandanavia or from Scandanavia down along the coast of France into Iberia, or as you said from the east and then they split into a "Y", some heading south into Iberia, while some headed north to Scandanavia.  L165, which is a brother branch to SRY2627 is found heavy in the Western Isles of Scotland and in Scandanavia, and I know that on the P312 project, under the Z220 guys, uphill from me is a person of French ancestry, and below me is a person of ancetry from the Netherlands.  It still makes me wonder about the Vandal/Franks/Goths haplotypes.  Were they predominately Z196 and not the usual R1a and I types?  Maybe this is why there seems to be a Scandanavian connection.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 17, 2013, 09:01:34 AM
It makes it very hard to take any matches at Y search for real with the lack of tested haplotypes  in my genetic distance of 2 there are only a few with tested haplotypes


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: glentane on April 17, 2013, 01:54:42 PM
Here are Y search results I only picke genetic distance of one. I don't see how this helps with most not having their haplotype.
 
 XMEXA   Barlow Slow Markers Unknown  Unknown  Family Tree DNA  8 1
Oh hi, that XMEXA was just me messing about with spreadsheets ages ago. I'd ignore it if I were you, as I have no real idea what I'm doing , as usual.
I'm DF13asterisk so far, and at a bit of a loss as to which single SNP to pay for next (Geno is a bit rich for my tastes at the moment).

(What I did was reorder the markers "slowest" to "middling", according to the Chandler inferred/calculated mutation rates and Janszen amendments, and then went fishing on Ysearch just to see if anything popped up, as we're stranded out on some tiny twig, apparently sitting down near the L21 root with a couple of other surnames.
 It came out pretty much as the conventional ordering, with the same few names in a tight bunch and then a bit of a jump to the h-types above and below on the spreadsheet, i.e. nobody likes us and we don't care lol.)


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 17, 2013, 02:15:21 PM
It makes it very hard to take any matches at Y search for real with the lack of tested haplotypes  in my genetic distance of 2 there are only a few with tested haplotypes

Look at my ysearch account for example.. It has me listed as predicted SRY2627, when infact I tested positive for it long ago. You have to go through and compare Str's with people. Don't write off an account just because they aren't confirmed SRY2627. You have to crunch the numbers, so to speak, and do alot of investigation.

My Devonshire cousin was only predicted R1b1a2 when I discovered him. Our Str's were very similar and we shared the same surname. So, I had him test for SRY2627 and BAM! I've got a link back to the old country.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 18, 2013, 01:20:35 AM
It makes it very hard to take any matches at Y search for real with the lack of tested haplotypes  in my genetic distance of 2 there are only a few with tested haplotypes

Look at my ysearch account for example.. It has me listed as predicted SRY2627, when infact I tested positive for it long ago. You have to go through and compare Str's with people. Don't write off an account just because they aren't confirmed SRY2627. You have to crunch the numbers, so to speak, and do alot of investigation.

My Devonshire cousin was only predicted R1b1a2 when I discovered him. Our Str's were very similar and we shared the same surname. So, I had him test for SRY2627 and BAM! I've got a link back to the old country.

Where is he located in Devonshire and how far back can he trace his lineage to the area? I suspect Devonshire was a sort of "hotbed" for SRY2627 in Britain for quite some time. That is cool that you finally found a link across the pond.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 18, 2013, 12:38:41 PM
It makes it very hard to take any matches at Y search for real with the lack of tested haplotypes  in my genetic distance of 2 there are only a few with tested haplotypes

Look at my ysearch account for example.. It has me listed as predicted SRY2627, when infact I tested positive for it long ago. You have to go through and compare Str's with people. Don't write off an account just because they aren't confirmed SRY2627. You have to crunch the numbers, so to speak, and do alot of investigation.

My Devonshire cousin was only predicted R1b1a2 when I discovered him. Our Str's were very similar and we shared the same surname. So, I had him test for SRY2627 and BAM! I've got a link back to the old country.

Where is he located in Devonshire and how far back can he trace his lineage to the area? I suspect Devonshire was a sort of "hotbed" for SRY2627 in Britain for quite some time. That is cool that you finally found a link across the pond.

Arch

I traced and confirmed his line back to a Thomas Isaac, baptised 1693 in Winkleigh, Devon. I have it back further to the late 1500's, but I can't confirm it 100%. My actual living cousin isn't from Devon himself, but his Great Grandfather was born and raised there (Zeal monachorum) and later immigrated to Kansas.

I also have my own specific y-line traced to Winkleigh with a Samuel Isaac marrying an Elizabeth Crocker in 1676. They had a son named Samuel, born 1678 as well and I believe he is the first of my family to settle in the Colonies.

*Which now that I think about it, I'd say the reason the records stop would be due to the Prayer book rebellion going on at the time. The first act of defiance was in Sampford, Courtenay, which is just a hop and a skip from Winkleigh. The family, the ones who remained in Devon anyway, were Church of England for as long as I could trace. Which unless I am mistaken is a sort of conglomeration of Catholic and Protestant views.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Dubhthach on April 18, 2013, 04:14:02 PM
In American context you would call the "Church of England" Episcopalian, though usal term used on this side of water is "Anglican" (Church of Ireland is Anglican).

There are number of different strands within that church (High Church vs. Low Church), with some arguring that parts of "High Church" are basically "Anglo-Catholic"

Of course the main reason behind the existence of the Church of England was that Henry VIII was keen that his Y-Chromosome would get passed on! ;-)


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 19, 2013, 03:39:06 PM
It makes it very hard to take any matches at Y search for real with the lack of tested haplotypes  in my genetic distance of 2 there are only a few with tested haplotypes

Look at my ysearch account for example.. It has me listed as predicted SRY2627, when infact I tested positive for it long ago. You have to go through and compare Str's with people. Don't write off an account just because they aren't confirmed SRY2627. You have to crunch the numbers, so to speak, and do alot of investigation.

My Devonshire cousin was only predicted R1b1a2 when I discovered him. Our Str's were very similar and we shared the same surname. So, I had him test for SRY2627 and BAM! I've got a link back to the old country.

Where is he located in Devonshire and how far back can he trace his lineage to the area? I suspect Devonshire was a sort of "hotbed" for SRY2627 in Britain for quite some time. That is cool that you finally found a link across the pond.

Arch

I traced and confirmed his line back to a Thomas Isaac, baptised 1693 in Winkleigh, Devon. I have it back further to the late 1500's, but I can't confirm it 100%. My actual living cousin isn't from Devon himself, but his Great Grandfather was born and raised there (Zeal monachorum) and later immigrated to Kansas.

I also have my own specific y-line traced to Winkleigh with a Samuel Isaac marrying an Elizabeth Crocker in 1676. They had a son named Samuel, born 1678 as well and I believe he is the first of my family to settle in the Colonies.

*Which now that I think about it, I'd say the reason the records stop would be due to the Prayer book rebellion going on at the time. The first act of defiance was in Sampford, Courtenay, which is just a hop and a skip from Winkleigh. The family, the ones who remained in Devon anyway, were Church of England for as long as I could trace. Which unless I am mistaken is a sort of conglomeration of Catholic and Protestant views.

For the longest time I have been trying to see if there's any association with the Rivers Yeo in that area to my surname and I have not been successful. I know of the Yeo family however. I think they took their name from the region rather than the region taking the name from the family as there are many rivers Yeo throughout southwest England (in particular Devon and Somerset) areas. If my memory serves me right there is the Congresbury Yeo near and south of Bristol, Blind Yeo, Cheddar Yeo (Cheddar Caves), Land Yeo, Lapford Yeo, and some others. Mostly between a stretch from Dartmoor to Exmoor and Mendips. I prefer Cheddar Yeo because of the cheese.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on April 19, 2013, 10:38:35 PM
For the longest time I have been trying to see if there's any association with the Rivers Yeo in that area to my surname

Do you have some reason to think the surname -- which has long been a word in standard English -- is older than the normal use of the term?

http://etymonline.com/?term=yeoman

I don't mean to imply that the family isn't an old one, but it's also quite an old word, with a meaning not apparently related to those rivers.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 20, 2013, 03:49:38 AM
For the longest time I have been trying to see if there's any association with the Rivers Yeo in that area to my surname

Do you have some reason to think the surname -- which has long been a word in standard English -- is older than the normal use of the term?

http://etymonline.com/?term=yeoman

I don't mean to imply that the family isn't an old one, but it's also quite an old word, with a meaning not apparently related to those rivers.


Couple of things to consider. Did the family adopt the name from the river itself? I have to even question the Yeo line which is well settled in the region. I sincerely doubt this family would have such an extensive influence to have imposed their surname upon several rivers over an expanse from the Dartmoor to Bristol. If so, then perhaps their influence was greater than that of many dukes and kings. So I suppose they adopted their surname based upon the Anglo-Saxon naming of the rivers. Even this I'm not sure how the AS would get Yeo from Nymet or Sacred? Or Ivel from allegedly the Romans. The names Taw, Yeo, Exe seem ancient to me. I do recall there was some ancient towns in Belerion mentioned by Ptolemy I suppose it is possible that perhaps he had a more accurate source of place names uninfluenced by any Roman or Anglo-Saxon. Obviously this is the land Bel but I wished I knew more about the Celtic or perhaps Pre-Indo-European naming conventions of this region.

Coming back to modernity. I could say that Yeo is derived from gau or -ge (District) or is a contraction of yonge/younger latin iuventes? It seems to me the ill-informed automatically ascribe it to farmer, when farmer has other naming conventions such as bauer or friebauer, gebur? The term farmer was attached yeoman in the 1600s and such as been associated with it as a class of farmer, however, the term goes beyond that and the furthest in historical or ancient context known is geongramannus or something to that effect (found in Beowulf, meaning manservant). This is no different than the Yeomen in the sense of royal and/or noble households. It is a rank below sergeant (deputy or assistant). But what if it's not ascribed to an occupation, status, or rank? So I looked at rivers, valleys, mountains, hills, etc, as a possible option.

Yeoford (water crossing?), Yeovil (water village?) are examples of names I pondered about. What does it mean? Water? Eau has a similar sound but I'm not sure. Yeo, Eau, Gau, ??? I don't know. I found some Phoenician terms that could apply in terms of being a rowing servant (I can't remember what exactly the word was, but is was similar Gau). I looked at some Tocharian in terms of Manye (servant). I searched high and low to get to the bottom of its roots aside from the traditional belief that originates from a Germanic language possible out of southern Bavaria based on gau. Which are found in various regions of Switzerland. I always keep coming back to wondering how such simple three letters of Exe, Taw, Yeo, etc look ancient and non-Indo European. Exe - Ter (Ter could be a Basque or Iberian term) River Ter is found in Catalonia and Old North Catalonia. Ton, is obviously from Germanic town.

In closing, I simply don't know where it originated and what its true meaning means.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 22, 2013, 12:10:36 PM
I don't know Arch if surnames are that important as to the origin of SRY2627 My family's original surname of Brousse is 100% French I guess meaning my family had at least been in France since the on set of surnames Although it has shown me my only 100% matches are of cousins our only hope now is they find viable ancient Y DNA  which is hard to do. I don't think any of the lands we hail from are prone to produce natural mummies and we have no permafrost. Cave remains may be our only hope I still hold out hope as well for someday proving a connection to the PICTS. The Roman's are the biggest killer to our quest The assimilation of our people and culture Thus making it extremely hard to track things down especially with being a small group.  IMO We all do share some common traits our love for history and our quest for who we are. And Soldiering seems to be a trait as well


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 22, 2013, 03:22:35 PM
I don't know Arch if surnames are that important as to the origin of SRY2627 My family's original surname of Brousse is 100% French I guess meaning my family had at least been in France since the on set of surnames Although it has shown me my only 100% matches are of cousins our only hope now is they find viable ancient Y DNA  which is hard to do. I don't think any of the lands we hail from are prone to produce natural mummies and we have no permafrost. Cave remains may be our only hope I still hold out hope as well for someday proving a connection to the PICTS. The Roman's are the biggest killer to our quest The assimilation of our people and culture Thus making it extremely hard to track things down especially with being a small group.  IMO We all do share some common traits our love for history and our quest for who we are. And Soldiering seems to be a trait as well

I believe the age of our subclade has been worked over quite thoroughly over the last
15 years now. So we should probably start with the age of the subclade being around 3,500 years old (1,500 BCE). Obviously surnames were not around then and not even Romans in the sense that we know them were around, just the little backwaters of the Latium city-state. This was the age of Carthage's rise and I firmly believe Carthage is a major influence of spreading people around just as much as Rome was. We should not forget that we have SRY2627 in Tunisia today. This very well may be a remnant of an Iberian or Celtiberian influence in the region in support of Carthage fighting an increasingly powerful Rome. We also must not forget the importance of the Ilergetes were for the Carthaginian army and cavalry specifically. At times, the Ilergetes were referred to as Celtiberians or Celtiberi (not Iberian Celts). Their homeland was what today known as the Llieda Province of Catalonia. Which includes Val d'Aran but I am aware Val d'Aran is a latecomer in the political structure of Hispania Tarraconesis of earlier times. It simply had more influence in the region of Novembpopulana and the later Comminges before it was attached to the Pallars and eventually Catalonia. We are fortunate to have some information about the earlier Pyrenean tribes that I am certain are Aquitani (Aeronosii (Val d'Aran region), Andosinii (Andorra region), and Serdones (Cerdanya region). So going back to the age of the subclade being around 3,500 years old, one can pretty much surmise this is a Late Bronze Age subclade with origins near or within the Pyrenees itself. I am led to believe its origins have to lie around a point to where we see SRY2627 influence in the Mediterranean zones of Western Europe. SRY2627 has its largest showing in Catalonia. Nothing has refuted this evidence after 16 years plus now. Furthermore, Catalonia is a pretty large area and I have a hard time believing that SRY2627 holed up in every nook and cranny to have genetic drift take place (replacing the older population to smaller numbers). That's a lot of intercourse and having babies throughout all of the Central to Eastern Pyrenees. Or we must be descended from one  sheep herder who managed to woo the Pyrenean women on every transhumance pathway.

I have a hard time believing that our population would be so large in this region and nowhere else that the region of Catalonia has no effect on origins. I think we can dispense with the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" rhetoric when it comes to the bigger picture. We have had sufficient time and studies to allow us a pretty good understanding where SRY2627 is found today. When we factor in all the other studies that have been done on other subclades and what has been discovered, SRY2627 has come up extremely low in numbers to the point of being non-existent. This I can agree with about the absence thing, because we can't get everybody and there's always bound to be hidden SRY2627 here and there. Sampling populations does not mean sampling the whole population.

So now I got that off my chest, back to the distribution picture. I believe that the Romans (just like the Carthaginians) did a lot to disburse people, assimilate borders but not so much cultures. The reason why I say this is due to the fact that we have certain groups of peoples with certain languages and cultures that tend to cluster even today. The Koreatown, Chinatowns, Little Italy, etc. are good examples of how we tend to cluster with what we best associate with even when under the rule of a dominant culture and language not our own. Obviously, wealth, influence and so forth can distance a person or persons from their associated cultural groups. For the most part there will be an affinity towards their heritage even if they are removed from their homeland or eventually relocated away from the migrant clusters in their newly adopted country or region. People tend to stick to what they know. That is the case I would have to say must exists for Val d'Aran and that of Gascony and Catalonia. Based on modern DNA we see that frequency distribution prominent in those regions stretching from the Mediterranean coast to the Atlantic and it should be no surprise that the Pyrenees are at the crossroads (they have been since time immemorial).

Back to the age of SRY2627. It makes me wonder why we see Late Bronze Age structures in the high valleys of Val d'Aran that are essentially tied to the Maritime Bell Beakers. I find that particularly interesting because often we associate our older immediate subclades with the Bell Beakers. Even more interesting is the amount of the Late Bronze Age influence found so far inland and high up the Central Pyrenees. There are very few if any Neolithic finds in this region, as most of the Neolithic artifacts are found near the Mediterranean region or further south and north of the high Central Pyrenees. If there are Maritime Bell Beakers found in Val d'Aran, the obvious influence is that of an Atlantic trade-exchange network and cultures. So I have a tendency to believe that SRY2627 is strongly influenced by Gascon culture within modernity but in antiquity, it's a Late Bronze Age Maritime culture that even found its way towards Scandinavia.

Off subject somewhat: I'm also interested in finding out why I have a high autosomal count in Baja California and if its attributed to the Portola Expeditions of early California history. I picked up a book from the Santa Barbara Historical Society at the Presidio and found out that Gaspar de Portola's family originates from Arties, Val d'Aran. I think he had a contingent of some 25 men from the Free Company of Catalonian Volunteers as well a few "Leather Jacket Men" from Catalonia. Most originated from the Lleida region. The famous priests such as Father Junipero Serra hailed from Mallorca and they established the famous 28 California Missions while the Catalan soldiers and engineers were establishing the 4 Presidios. I often contemplate how many of those men or even if Gaspar Portola was SRY2627. I am doing my best to locate the families who are descended from the men of these early expeditions in order to convince them to have their y-DNA tested. I know Portola was buried in Llieda, Catalonia--it would be quite interesting if we could get a sample of his y-DNA.

Arch







Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 23, 2013, 12:34:33 AM
I agree with you, Arch. I think SRY2627 made its way to Britain via trade exchanges with Brittany and Iberia, probably in the form of Maritime beakers. Though I'd have to say a good portion of it was probably introduced via Brittany more so than Iberia. Mostly due to the relatively short distance between England and Brittany. I may be slightly biased though, as I do believe that is how my SRY2627 ended up there :)

I looked through some of the projects on ftdna as well as browsing ysearch entries looking for SRY2627 in England. As you mentioned earlier there does seem to be a slight pooling point in Devon, really the southwest in general as there are examples in Cornwall, Somerset and Dorset too. These tin-rich areas and the fact that SRY2627 is more frequent in them, make it all too apparent that SRY2627 arrived to Britain because of tin.

Most likely these SRY2627, L165, Z220 beaker people made their way further north from France and Iberia because of the tin rich enviroment of Southwest England. Since tin wasn't really traded from Brittany and Iberia until after the time period we are discussing. I guess they liked what they seen when they arrived! This further solidifies France and Iberia's role as being the ancient homeland of our family of DF27 clades.

I still see Switzerland as the location of the original SRY2627 man.. Don't ask me why. Its just a gut feeling.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 23, 2013, 12:51:11 AM
I agree with you, Arch. I think SRY2627 made its way to Britain via trade exchanges with Brittany and Iberia, probably in the form of Maritime beakers. Though I'd have to say a good portion of it was probably introduced via Brittany more so than Iberia. Mostly due to the relatively short distance between England and Brittany. I may be slightly biased though, as I do believe that is how my SRY2627 ended up there :)

I looked through some of the projects on ftdna as well as browsing ysearch entries looking for SRY2627 in England. As you mentioned earlier there does seem to be a slight pooling point in Devon, really the southwest in general as there are examples in Cornwall, Somerset and Dorset too. These tin-rich areas and the fact that SRY2627 is more frequent in them, make it all too apparent that SRY2627 arrived to Britain because of tin.

Most likely these SRY2627, L165, Z220 beaker people made their way further north from France and Iberia because of the tin rich enviroment of Southwest England. Since tin wasn't really traded from Brittany and Iberia until after the time period we are discussing. I guess they liked what they seen when they arrived! This further solidifies France and Iberia's role as being the ancient homeland of our family of DF27 clades.

I still see Switzerland as the location of the original SRY2627 man.. Don't ask me why. Its just a gut feeling.

I would not be surprised if Switzerland is the location of the first SRY2627+ person. We also have to consider whether or not his family remained there in situ or migrated just after his was born. All kinds of crap could have happened since the birth of SRY2627+ man. LOL. What I do recall is how easy it was for the Amesbury Archer to make it to Stonehenge and his origins are speculated to be in the western Alps in Switzerland. I agree that SRY2627 is a part of the later Bell Beaker Maritime package. I'm also a bit mystified with the late bronze age megaliths in the Central Pyrenees, specifically in Val d'Aran that are identified with Maritime Bell Beakers. The spread of SRY2627 is on both sides of the Pyrenees, so it makes sense that Val d'Aran and nearby valleys are the big crossroads between Iberia and eventually Britanny via the Garonne and coastal sailing.

The Loire R. also intrigues me as a possibility. The tin trade initially used the Loire-Cher route from Belerion and Ictis towards Marseilles off the Mediterranean Coast. The other route used was the Garonne-Aude between Bordigula and Narbonne.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 23, 2013, 03:56:09 PM
I agree with you, Arch. I think SRY2627 made its way to Britain via trade exchanges with Brittany and Iberia, probably in the form of Maritime beakers. Though I'd have to say a good portion of it was probably introduced via Brittany more so than Iberia. Mostly due to the relatively short distance between England and Brittany. I may be slightly biased though, as I do believe that is how my SRY2627 ended up there :)

I looked through some of the projects on ftdna as well as browsing ysearch entries looking for SRY2627 in England. As you mentioned earlier there does seem to be a slight pooling point in Devon, really the southwest in general as there are examples in Cornwall, Somerset and Dorset too. These tin-rich areas and the fact that SRY2627 is more frequent in them, make it all too apparent that SRY2627 arrived to Britain because of tin.

Most likely these SRY2627, L165, Z220 beaker people made their way further north from France and Iberia because of the tin rich enviroment of Southwest England. Since tin wasn't really traded from Brittany and Iberia until after the time period we are discussing. I guess they liked what they seen when they arrived! This further solidifies France and Iberia's role as being the ancient homeland of our family of DF27 clades.

I still see Switzerland as the location of the original SRY2627 man.. Don't ask me why. Its just a gut feeling.

I would not be surprised if Switzerland is the location of the first SRY2627+ person. We also have to consider whether or not his family remained there in situ or migrated just after his was born. All kinds of crap could have happened since the birth of SRY2627+ man. LOL. What I do recall is how easy it was for the Amesbury Archer to make it to Stonehenge and his origins are speculated to be in the western Alps in Switzerland. I agree that SRY2627 is a part of the later Bell Beaker Maritime package. I'm also a bit mystified with the late bronze age megaliths in the Central Pyrenees, specifically in Val d'Aran that are identified with Maritime Bell Beakers. The spread of SRY2627 is on both sides of the Pyrenees, so it makes sense that Val d'Aran and nearby valleys are the big crossroads between Iberia and eventually Britanny via the Garonne and coastal sailing.

The Loire R. also intrigues me as a possibility. The tin trade initially used the Loire-Cher route from Belerion and Ictis towards Marseilles off the Mediterranean Coast. The other route used was the Garonne-Aude between Bordigula and Narbonne.

Arch

I think the second map that Rich Rocca posted on eng.molgen.org is pretty representative of what we are currently discussing.

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?t=746&p=14185

I find the correlation between this map and SRY2627 to be strikingly similar. The main flow from the Atlantic pooled where we see it today, Southwest England. Then the same flow from Brittany kept moving further east. Some scattered SRY2627 along the Eastern part of Anglia and these guys probably kept moving further north into Scotland leaving a trail. I'm guessing this is how L165 got so far up, or it could be a later migration from the group of Iberian beakers that kept going east upwards through Switzerland and Germany on up into Scandanavia. I guess L165 could have been brought there by Vikings, but it most likely didn't originate with them. Of course I'm sure there were outliers on either side of the SRY2627/L165 brother combo, with some SRY2627 going to Scandanavia and becoming "Nordic" and some L165 travelling to Britain becoming "Celtic". Either way, I believe they did travel together. SRY2627 more so with L165 than L165 with SRY2627 on its usual path.

I guess this also re-asserts that Beakers were more of a cultural package to Britain than a whole wide-scale population movement. DF27 seems to have introduced this culture there more so than other P312 clades. So in a way it is both, but it wasn't a large, massive migration. If it was we would be rivalling L21 in the Isles. Though I do believe it was much more significant on the Continent.

I'd say the Amesbury Archer is DF27 of some sort. I keep seeing what you said, that he was likely from Alpine Europe. Really, I would include Northern Spain in that description. It isn't unlike Switzerland with all of its mountains and forests. I'd like to say he was SRY2627 but that wouldn't be fair to our DF27 cousins :) .. I also remembering reading that tooth enamel found in those skeletons from Iberia and I believe the Czech republic were similar to each other. I'm assuming the archer would be a match for this type as well.

On a slightly unrelated side-note, I found out that Devon has a national tartan. Didn't think they had one, but it was apparently introduced following the success of the Cornish, St. Piran tartan. Of course that was just Devons attempt at stealing Cornwalls "unique" Celtic identity. Its a shame that Devon doesn't celebrate its rich Celtic heritage. I guess in a way they are slowly starting to re-embrace it.  


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 23, 2013, 05:04:35 PM
 
SRY2627 the tofu of DNA tasteless but absorbs other flavor well as to hide what your eating


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 24, 2013, 02:34:05 AM
I agree with you, Arch. I think SRY2627 made its way to Britain via trade exchanges with Brittany and Iberia, probably in the form of Maritime beakers. Though I'd have to say a good portion of it was probably introduced via Brittany more so than Iberia. Mostly due to the relatively short distance between England and Brittany. I may be slightly biased though, as I do believe that is how my SRY2627 ended up there :)

I looked through some of the projects on ftdna as well as browsing ysearch entries looking for SRY2627 in England. As you mentioned earlier there does seem to be a slight pooling point in Devon, really the southwest in general as there are examples in Cornwall, Somerset and Dorset too. These tin-rich areas and the fact that SRY2627 is more frequent in them, make it all too apparent that SRY2627 arrived to Britain because of tin.

Most likely these SRY2627, L165, Z220 beaker people made their way further north from France and Iberia because of the tin rich enviroment of Southwest England. Since tin wasn't really traded from Brittany and Iberia until after the time period we are discussing. I guess they liked what they seen when they arrived! This further solidifies France and Iberia's role as being the ancient homeland of our family of DF27 clades.

I still see Switzerland as the location of the original SRY2627 man.. Don't ask me why. Its just a gut feeling.

I would not be surprised if Switzerland is the location of the first SRY2627+ person. We also have to consider whether or not his family remained there in situ or migrated just after his was born. All kinds of crap could have happened since the birth of SRY2627+ man. LOL. What I do recall is how easy it was for the Amesbury Archer to make it to Stonehenge and his origins are speculated to be in the western Alps in Switzerland. I agree that SRY2627 is a part of the later Bell Beaker Maritime package. I'm also a bit mystified with the late bronze age megaliths in the Central Pyrenees, specifically in Val d'Aran that are identified with Maritime Bell Beakers. The spread of SRY2627 is on both sides of the Pyrenees, so it makes sense that Val d'Aran and nearby valleys are the big crossroads between Iberia and eventually Britanny via the Garonne and coastal sailing.

The Loire R. also intrigues me as a possibility. The tin trade initially used the Loire-Cher route from Belerion and Ictis towards Marseilles off the Mediterranean Coast. The other route used was the Garonne-Aude between Bordigula and Narbonne.

Arch

I think the second map that Rich Rocca posted on eng.molgen.org is pretty representative of what we are currently discussing.

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?t=746&p=14185

I find the correlation between this map and SRY2627 to be strikingly similar. The main flow from the Atlantic pooled where we see it today, Southwest England. Then the same flow from Brittany kept moving further east. Some scattered SRY2627 along the Eastern part of Anglia and these guys probably kept moving further north into Scotland leaving a trail. I'm guessing this is how L165 got so far up, or it could be a later migration from the group of Iberian beakers that kept going east upwards through Switzerland and Germany on up into Scandanavia. I guess L165 could have been brought there by Vikings, but it most likely didn't originate with them. Of course I'm sure there were outliers on either side of the SRY2627/L165 brother combo, with some SRY2627 going to Scandanavia and becoming "Nordic" and some L165 travelling to Britain becoming "Celtic". Either way, I believe they did travel together. SRY2627 more so with L165 than L165 with SRY2627 on its usual path.

I guess this also re-asserts that Beakers were more of a cultural package to Britain than a whole wide-scale population movement. DF27 seems to have introduced this culture there more so than other P312 clades. So in a way it is both, but it wasn't a large, massive migration. If it was we would be rivalling L21 in the Isles. Though I do believe it was much more significant on the Continent.

I'd say the Amesbury Archer is DF27 of some sort. I keep seeing what you said, that he was likely from Alpine Europe. Really, I would include Northern Spain in that description. It isn't unlike Switzerland with all of its mountains and forests. I'd like to say he was SRY2627 but that wouldn't be fair to our DF27 cousins :) .. I also remembering reading that tooth enamel found in those skeletons from Iberia and I believe the Czech republic were similar to each other. I'm assuming the archer would be a match for this type as well.

On a slightly unrelated side-note, I found out that Devon has a national tartan. Didn't think they had one, but it was apparently introduced following the success of the Cornish, St. Piran tartan. Of course that was just Devons attempt at stealing Cornwalls "unique" Celtic identity. Its a shame that Devon doesn't celebrate its rich Celtic heritage. I guess in a way they are slowly starting to re-embrace it.  

The subclade (SRY2627) is hard to figure out when we see its distribution all over the place. Though not exclusively, it seems the bulk of SRY2627 is found within relative proximity to the Atlantic Ocean, Mediterranean Sea, North Sea, Baltic Sea, and the Black Sea. I suspect this is mainly due to the fact that Europe is a big peninsula of peninsulas. The inland SRY2627 distribution seems to cluster near the Swiss and Italian Alps. Granted we do have some in Poland, near Czech Republic, Hungary, Ukraine. Like I stated the SRY2627 in Scandinavia must have been a later arrival perhaps earliest arrival during the Nordic Bronze Age. It's the inland of continental SRY2627 that drives me crazy in trying to figure out. Now what I could surmise is SRY2627's strong presence in southern France and the Pyrenees could have been part of the trade-exchange network that reached Hueneburg (allegedly the city of Pyrene) with its influence reaching the Mediterranean Sea at Massilia. Could this account with the high presence of SRY2627 in Girona near Empuries (Portus Pyrene)? It's a possibility. We see SRY2627 along the Loire River which is also a major factor in the Atlantic Bronze Age Trade-Exchange networks. The Garonne-Aude Axis also was to play a major role in the earlier exchanges before the Loire-Cher route was taken. Toulouse is such a major player in early antiquity. It was the capital of the Volcae Tectosages around 300 BCE, then later Visigoths. It's history must go back further than 300 BCE in terms of its settlement. It's the perfect center between the Atlantic and the Mediterranean.

I know what you mean about continuity of the teeth enamel. Bell Beakers found in the Czech Republic have continuity with those in the Pyrenees or Iberia. Everywhere else there is discontinuity. That is pretty interesting.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on April 24, 2013, 09:21:15 AM
I agree with you, Arch. I think SRY2627 made its way to Britain via trade exchanges with Brittany and Iberia, probably in the form of Maritime beakers. Though I'd have to say a good portion of it was probably introduced via Brittany more so than Iberia. Mostly due to the relatively short distance between England and Brittany. I may be slightly biased though, as I do believe that is how my SRY2627 ended up there :)

I looked through some of the projects on ftdna as well as browsing ysearch entries looking for SRY2627 in England. As you mentioned earlier there does seem to be a slight pooling point in Devon, really the southwest in general as there are examples in Cornwall, Somerset and Dorset too. These tin-rich areas and the fact that SRY2627 is more frequent in them, make it all too apparent that SRY2627 arrived to Britain because of tin.

Most likely these SRY2627, L165, Z220 beaker people made their way further north from France and Iberia because of the tin rich enviroment of Southwest England. Since tin wasn't really traded from Brittany and Iberia until after the time period we are discussing. I guess they liked what they seen when they arrived! This further solidifies France and Iberia's role as being the ancient homeland of our family of DF27 clades.

I still see Switzerland as the location of the original SRY2627 man.. Don't ask me why. Its just a gut feeling.

I would not be surprised if Switzerland is the location of the first SRY2627+ person. We also have to consider whether or not his family remained there in situ or migrated just after his was born. All kinds of crap could have happened since the birth of SRY2627+ man. LOL. What I do recall is how easy it was for the Amesbury Archer to make it to Stonehenge and his origins are speculated to be in the western Alps in Switzerland. I agree that SRY2627 is a part of the later Bell Beaker Maritime package. I'm also a bit mystified with the late bronze age megaliths in the Central Pyrenees, specifically in Val d'Aran that are identified with Maritime Bell Beakers. The spread of SRY2627 is on both sides of the Pyrenees, so it makes sense that Val d'Aran and nearby valleys are the big crossroads between Iberia and eventually Britanny via the Garonne and coastal sailing.

The Loire R. also intrigues me as a possibility. The tin trade initially used the Loire-Cher route from Belerion and Ictis towards Marseilles off the Mediterranean Coast. The other route used was the Garonne-Aude between Bordigula and Narbonne.

Arch

I think the second map that Rich Rocca posted on eng.molgen.org is pretty representative of what we are currently discussing.

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?t=746&p=14185

I find the correlation between this map and SRY2627 to be strikingly similar. The main flow from the Atlantic pooled where we see it today, Southwest England. Then the same flow from Brittany kept moving further east. Some scattered SRY2627 along the Eastern part of Anglia and these guys probably kept moving further north into Scotland leaving a trail. I'm guessing this is how L165 got so far up, or it could be a later migration from the group of Iberian beakers that kept going east upwards through Switzerland and Germany on up into Scandanavia. I guess L165 could have been brought there by Vikings, but it most likely didn't originate with them. Of course I'm sure there were outliers on either side of the SRY2627/L165 brother combo, with some SRY2627 going to Scandanavia and becoming "Nordic" and some L165 travelling to Britain becoming "Celtic". Either way, I believe they did travel together. SRY2627 more so with L165 than L165 with SRY2627 on its usual path.

I guess this also re-asserts that Beakers were more of a cultural package to Britain than a whole wide-scale population movement. DF27 seems to have introduced this culture there more so than other P312 clades. So in a way it is both, but it wasn't a large, massive migration. If it was we would be rivalling L21 in the Isles. Though I do believe it was much more significant on the Continent.

I'd say the Amesbury Archer is DF27 of some sort. I keep seeing what you said, that he was likely from Alpine Europe. Really, I would include Northern Spain in that description. It isn't unlike Switzerland with all of its mountains and forests. I'd like to say he was SRY2627 but that wouldn't be fair to our DF27 cousins :) .. I also remembering reading that tooth enamel found in those skeletons from Iberia and I believe the Czech republic were similar to each other. I'm assuming the archer would be a match for this type as well.

On a slightly unrelated side-note, I found out that Devon has a national tartan. Didn't think they had one, but it was apparently introduced following the success of the Cornish, St. Piran tartan. Of course that was just Devons attempt at stealing Cornwalls "unique" Celtic identity. Its a shame that Devon doesn't celebrate its rich Celtic heritage. I guess in a way they are slowly starting to re-embrace it.  

Sam, it is starting to make sense to me now.  If you apply the practices of the Vikings to Maritime Beakers, you start to see a similiar pattern.  The Vikings were not interested in settling, therefore they stayed close to the coasts and established trading posts, which went on to become cities.  Their bases were concetrated in areas that would have given them easy access to the sea, and in the case of Scotland, a good area to make a straight shot back to Scandanavia.  Devon is to France/Spain what the Orkneys are to Scandanavia.  If the Beakers were interested in trade only, then Devon around through to Kent, which is where we see high numbers of P312* in the Busby study would make sense.  Also the Southern portion of Ireland has the highest numbers of P312*, which again is easy access to the sea.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 24, 2013, 10:02:46 AM
This is why I believe the maritime peoples of the Pictones and Santones meet the criteria. I'm not even saying they are natives to the area. Both Tribes are skilled ship builders by the time the Romans arrive. It is also written the Picts also had a navy. To me this answers all questions as to the distribution of SRY2627 No doubt these people traded goods. I can't see people in the alps building ships. Plus most even today that live in the mountains have close family ties like many cousin marriages. Today people may leave the mountains for a better life but 3,500 years ago life in the mountains would be as good as it got with safety and our lot would not be so widely distributed . I'm just adding my guess as all of you do . The fact is we may never know so Maritime Bell Beakers  my be who we are


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on April 24, 2013, 10:23:26 AM
This is why I believe the maritime peoples of the Pictones and Santones meet the criteria. I'm not even saying they are natives to the area. Both Tribes are skilled ship builders by the time the Romans arrive. It is also written the Picts also had a navy. To me this answers all questions as to the distribution of SRY2627 No doubt these people traded goods. I can't see people in the alps building ships. Plus most even today that live in the mountains have close family ties like many cousin marriages. Today people may leave the mountains for a better life but 3,500 years ago life in the mountains would be as good as it got with safety and our lot would not be so widely distributed . I'm just adding my guess as all of you do . The fact is we may never know so Maritime Bell Beakers  my be who we are

I think Sam's other point that as SRY2627 and various other DF27 subclades spread around, they probably shed off considerable amounts seeds, so to speak.  The Ebro River Valley flows right along side the Pyrenees, so you would have to secure passes through these mountains if what you were trading was being traded to the west of the Pyrenees.  Which could explain the reason for the high numbers in these areas.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 24, 2013, 03:55:17 PM
I agree with you, Arch. I think SRY2627 made its way to Britain via trade exchanges with Brittany and Iberia, probably in the form of Maritime beakers. Though I'd have to say a good portion of it was probably introduced via Brittany more so than Iberia. Mostly due to the relatively short distance between England and Brittany. I may be slightly biased though, as I do believe that is how my SRY2627 ended up there :)

I looked through some of the projects on ftdna as well as browsing ysearch entries looking for SRY2627 in England. As you mentioned earlier there does seem to be a slight pooling point in Devon, really the southwest in general as there are examples in Cornwall, Somerset and Dorset too. These tin-rich areas and the fact that SRY2627 is more frequent in them, make it all too apparent that SRY2627 arrived to Britain because of tin.

Most likely these SRY2627, L165, Z220 beaker people made their way further north from France and Iberia because of the tin rich enviroment of Southwest England. Since tin wasn't really traded from Brittany and Iberia until after the time period we are discussing. I guess they liked what they seen when they arrived! This further solidifies France and Iberia's role as being the ancient homeland of our family of DF27 clades.

I still see Switzerland as the location of the original SRY2627 man.. Don't ask me why. Its just a gut feeling.

I would not be surprised if Switzerland is the location of the first SRY2627+ person. We also have to consider whether or not his family remained there in situ or migrated just after his was born. All kinds of crap could have happened since the birth of SRY2627+ man. LOL. What I do recall is how easy it was for the Amesbury Archer to make it to Stonehenge and his origins are speculated to be in the western Alps in Switzerland. I agree that SRY2627 is a part of the later Bell Beaker Maritime package. I'm also a bit mystified with the late bronze age megaliths in the Central Pyrenees, specifically in Val d'Aran that are identified with Maritime Bell Beakers. The spread of SRY2627 is on both sides of the Pyrenees, so it makes sense that Val d'Aran and nearby valleys are the big crossroads between Iberia and eventually Britanny via the Garonne and coastal sailing.

The Loire R. also intrigues me as a possibility. The tin trade initially used the Loire-Cher route from Belerion and Ictis towards Marseilles off the Mediterranean Coast. The other route used was the Garonne-Aude between Bordigula and Narbonne.

Arch

I think the second map that Rich Rocca posted on eng.molgen.org is pretty representative of what we are currently discussing.

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?t=746&p=14185

I find the correlation between this map and SRY2627 to be strikingly similar. The main flow from the Atlantic pooled where we see it today, Southwest England. Then the same flow from Brittany kept moving further east. Some scattered SRY2627 along the Eastern part of Anglia and these guys probably kept moving further north into Scotland leaving a trail. I'm guessing this is how L165 got so far up, or it could be a later migration from the group of Iberian beakers that kept going east upwards through Switzerland and Germany on up into Scandanavia. I guess L165 could have been brought there by Vikings, but it most likely didn't originate with them. Of course I'm sure there were outliers on either side of the SRY2627/L165 brother combo, with some SRY2627 going to Scandanavia and becoming "Nordic" and some L165 travelling to Britain becoming "Celtic". Either way, I believe they did travel together. SRY2627 more so with L165 than L165 with SRY2627 on its usual path.

I guess this also re-asserts that Beakers were more of a cultural package to Britain than a whole wide-scale population movement. DF27 seems to have introduced this culture there more so than other P312 clades. So in a way it is both, but it wasn't a large, massive migration. If it was we would be rivalling L21 in the Isles. Though I do believe it was much more significant on the Continent.

I'd say the Amesbury Archer is DF27 of some sort. I keep seeing what you said, that he was likely from Alpine Europe. Really, I would include Northern Spain in that description. It isn't unlike Switzerland with all of its mountains and forests. I'd like to say he was SRY2627 but that wouldn't be fair to our DF27 cousins :) .. I also remembering reading that tooth enamel found in those skeletons from Iberia and I believe the Czech republic were similar to each other. I'm assuming the archer would be a match for this type as well.

On a slightly unrelated side-note, I found out that Devon has a national tartan. Didn't think they had one, but it was apparently introduced following the success of the Cornish, St. Piran tartan. Of course that was just Devons attempt at stealing Cornwalls "unique" Celtic identity. Its a shame that Devon doesn't celebrate its rich Celtic heritage. I guess in a way they are slowly starting to re-embrace it.  

Sam, it is starting to make sense to me now.  If you apply the practices of the Vikings to Maritime Beakers, you start to see a similiar pattern.  The Vikings were not interested in settling, therefore they stayed close to the coasts and established trading posts, which went on to become cities.  Their bases were concetrated in areas that would have given them easy access to the sea, and in the case of Scotland, a good area to make a straight shot back to Scandanavia.  Devon is to France/Spain what the Orkneys are to Scandanavia.  If the Beakers were interested in trade only, then Devon around through to Kent, which is where we see high numbers of P312* in the Busby study would make sense.  Also the Southern portion of Ireland has the highest numbers of P312*, which again is easy access to the sea.

Agreed. When I said " I'm guessing this is how L165 got so far up, or it could be a later migration from the group of Iberian beakers that kept going east upwards through Switzerland and Germany on up into Scandanavia. I guess L165 could have been brought there by Vikings, but it most likely didn't originate with them." I was referring to the Vikings bringing it to Scotland during their expansions across Europe.

I'd say alot of the untested P312* from the Old Norway study will be L165. With decreasing numbers of SRY2627, Z220 and a few DF27*. I'm still amazed that an M153 was found up in that region.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 24, 2013, 04:15:42 PM
This is why I believe the maritime peoples of the Pictones and Santones meet the criteria. I'm not even saying they are natives to the area. Both Tribes are skilled ship builders by the time the Romans arrive. It is also written the Picts also had a navy. To me this answers all questions as to the distribution of SRY2627 No doubt these people traded goods. I can't see people in the alps building ships. Plus most even today that live in the mountains have close family ties like many cousin marriages. Today people may leave the mountains for a better life but 3,500 years ago life in the mountains would be as good as it got with safety and our lot would not be so widely distributed . I'm just adding my guess as all of you do . The fact is we may never know so Maritime Bell Beakers  my be who we are

No doubt the Pictones and Santones helped to spread our subclade and other branches of P312 around. Though it would have been at a later date. The Pictones and Santones are described as being around during the Iron age and are Celtic tribes. Whereas SRY2627 and the Beakers who most likely spread our clade are described as being in the Bronze age, where tin was added to copper to form Bronze. The Beakers arrived in Britain around 2500 b.c., our subclade is dated to around 3500 b.c. So we were most likely spread all along the Atlantic coast fairly early on and well before the Gaulish/Celtic tribes came to be. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the tribes your describing weren't important in the spread of our clade. But I don't think they were responsible for the early expansions we are discussing. Alot of SRY2627 ended up in places that eventually spoke Celtic languages, but it was already there before the spread of Celtic.

Also looking at this variance run that Rich Rocca posted, then we see the early relationship between Britain, Iberia and France.. France hasn't been tested enough, so the isn't represenative for that region, which no doubt is just as old as the Iberian and British samples.

DF27 Haplogroup Variance by Region @25 STRs
 




Iberia:
 
n=97
 
var=1.15
 


Britain & Ireland:
 
n=285
 
var=1.11
 


Germany:
 
n=34
 
var=1.09
 


Italy:
 
n=7
 
var=1.07
 


France:
 
n=56
 
var=1.02
 


Switzerland:
 
n=4
 
var=0.88
 


Low Countries:
 
n=12
 
var=0.77


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 24, 2013, 04:16:24 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/24/ancient-europeans-genetic-transformation_n_3142552.html?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl22%7Csec3_lnk3%26pLid%3D303383


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 24, 2013, 04:20:57 PM
All info I have found on these tribes even their names indicate to me they are not of the main celtic push but pre date it. So they may not even be true what people call true Celtic people but may have adapted to the Celtic life style


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 24, 2013, 04:37:23 PM
All info I have found on these tribes even their names indicate to me they are not of the main celtic push but pre date it. So they may not even be true what people call true Celtic people but may have adapted to the Celtic life style

Either way you look at it, the Beakers and SRY2627 pre-date the Celts by a good 1000 years. The link you provided mentions that the beakers helped spread the Celtic language up and down the coast, isn't true. It spread the languages and culture that is most likely the pre-cursor to Celtic. That might be what they meant, but they should have worded it differently. If anything these guys (Pictones&Santones) would be a good source of describing your own specific ancient roots rather than the spread of our entire clade.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 24, 2013, 05:59:23 PM
All info I have found on these tribes even their names indicate to me they are not of the main celtic push but pre date it. So they may not even be true what people call true Celtic people but may have adapted to the Celtic life style

Either way you look at it, the Beakers and SRY2627 pre-date the Celts by a good 1000 years. The link you provided mentions that the beakers helped spread the Celtic language up and down the coast, isn't true. It spread the languages and culture that is most likely the pre-cursor to Celtic. That might be what they meant, but they should have worded it differently. If anything these guys (Pictones&Santones) would be a good source of describing your own specific ancient roots rather than the spread of our entire clade.

Well written. The fact with SRY2627 being some 3,500 years old puts the subclade into the Late Bronze Age. One thing I find fascinating is the connection of Falmouth, Cornwall to the site of the Nebra Sky Disk in Saxony, Germany. I find it absolutely incredible how far minerals from Cornwall/Devon reached throughout some far flung parts of Europe over 3,000 years ago. The ancient bronze age boat wrecks found in the Salcombe, Humber Estuary, etc., are signs that people were traveling far and abroad than we are led to believe.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 24, 2013, 06:54:43 PM
Sam Like you all I'm guessing . your clan could have made it to the UK with these people. All we can do is guess even with the bigger clades they are guessing Our big set backs is low numbers spread out.  My line I can't guarantee anything except from the town my family came from and the surname being French. You all toss tribes out there like visagoths and franks and vandels so I don't feel my ideas are any worse none can be proven


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on April 24, 2013, 09:26:05 PM
I think what we really need besides aDNA, is the discovery of more subclades downstream, so that we can start to look for possible regional groupings.  I think that would start to unravel possible migration routes.  I went through all the surnames of possible and confirmed British origin in the Z220 group in the 1881 British census name profiler and Devon seems to be the hub for Z220.  But next to Devon the entire marches regions of Britain, that western part of England that borders Wales, seems to be a second hub.  In other words, higher in Devon and decreasing out gradually in a north eastern spread.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on April 25, 2013, 12:38:02 AM
Sam Like you all I'm guessing . your clan could have made it to the UK with these people. All we can do is guess even with the bigger clades they are guessing Our big set backs is low numbers spread out.  My line I can't guarantee anything except from the town my family came from and the surname being French. You all toss tribes out there like visagoths and franks and vandels so I don't feel my ideas are any worse none can be proven

I certainly don't mean offense. You can speculate all you want to. But when you present ideas on a forum like this, you have to expect them to be challenged.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 25, 2013, 02:51:03 AM
I think what we really need besides aDNA, is the discovery of more subclades downstream, so that we can start to look for possible regional groupings.  I think that would start to unravel possible migration routes.  I went through all the surnames of possible and confirmed British origin in the Z220 group in the 1881 British census name profiler and Devon seems to be the hub for Z220.  But next to Devon the entire marches regions of Britain, that western part of England that borders Wales, seems to be a second hub.  In other words, higher in Devon and decreasing out gradually in a north eastern spread.

If there are any subclades downstream of SRY2627 besides the private SNPs. I think it's possible but so far very little has come forth. There was one lingering around for a while but I have no idea where it went to or if it was decided to be a private SNP. If we look at the diversity aspect of SRY2627, for the most part it seems to be a bit higher in Britain than in France. Lots of jumps from one region to another which I'm thinking is due to maritime travel to include upstream on such rivers as the Rhine. I don't think it's that hard to get maritime people inland and a good example how we can find maritime bell beakers in Val d'Aran high up the Garonne/Garona. If anything the major watercourses inland helped to drive the coastal people inland more than the other way around. In terms of mountain life being better or used for a refuge I think it fluctuates depending on the circumstances. I looked at the population histograms of Val d'Aran and was amazed to see in certain periods there was obvious abandonment and then re-population in certain villages--in fact the re-populate villages today do not have the numbers they once had in the 1600s. In fact, Val d'Aran had more people at certain points than it does now (amazing stuff when you really dig into a history and sociology of a region). I like starting from here as obvious, mostly because of the frequency distribution in the Central Pyrenees. I have considered what could cause the extremely low diversity and that perhaps Val d'Aran was the last major clustering of a good portion of SRY2627. The variance being lower in France makes sense from the point that Val d'Aran is really a French facing region. What befuddles me is the higher diversity in Iberia than Germany and Britain (elsewhere it's pretty much a moot point, except to say they are lower than Iberia, Germany, Britain and France).

So that is one reason why I look at SRY2627's variance as an indicator that it was moving around the waterways and coastal ways of Europe. Not that hard to do and that makes it difficult. I think Z262 is what we really need to get a grasp on before we can make any definitive conclusions where SRY2627 originates and of course any downstream SNPs to find the terminal point so to speak. I would say this subclade moved around with great rapidity during the Late Bronze age and that is why we pretty much see it all over Europe. Only in recent history did it cluster and that is the evidence we have today with the academic studies and current corporate genomic data showing a great deal of SRY2627 in Iberia and southerly regions. I find it weird that a subclade that has predominately southern European affinities in studies does not have such with some genomic testing companies. If I am SRY2627+ I would be expecting to see a higher percentage of southern European in my ancestral painting offered by 23andMe and I'm not seeing it--which is really weird but I do see a small percentage of it. Meaning if there's a small percentage than it must mean that my ancestry lies within a zone near the Pyrenees or the Alps. Hopefully we can find a downstream SNP to compare against once we know the distribution of it. But for now we really need to get a grasp on Z262.

Arch



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 25, 2013, 03:05:02 AM
Sam Like you all I'm guessing . your clan could have made it to the UK with these people. All we can do is guess even with the bigger clades they are guessing Our big set backs is low numbers spread out.  My line I can't guarantee anything except from the town my family came from and the surname being French. You all toss tribes out there like visagoths and franks and vandels so I don't feel my ideas are any worse none can be proven

It's not to say SRY2627 people could have been a part of the Pictones, Santones, etc. There is a strong likelihood of having SRY2627 in these tribes just as much I believe there is a strong chance of having SRY2627 men that were part of the Portola Expeditions in Alta California based on the premise that Portola's ancestral lineage is derived from Arties, Val d'Aran. Of course, I factor in the higher SRY2627 population in Catalonia and the Balearic Island of Mallorca. Odds are in my favor, however, I won't know until I find the living descendants of the men who participated in the two Portola expeditions. It all gets muddled afterwards as some men stayed and some went home and basically a whole new population of settlers arrived that mostly descended from other parts of Spain or Mexico itself. Here I am in the late 1700s trying to find an SRY2627 and having a difficult time in doing so. It's only going to be that much tougher for us to find a deceased Pictone, Santone to test DNA on and that is the frustrating part. All we can go with is looking at the modern picture based on current DNA tests from academia and genomic testing companies. We see a snapshot of recent history than we do of antiquity and it's frustrating to no end. However, we can look at upstream and downstream SNP distribution and variance to help clear up some of the mystery of regional affinity and possible points of recent migration and settlement. But it won't give us the answer of origins. The best we can do for now is hope for ancient DNA with the knowledge that our sublcade's molecular age puts it birth date within the Late Bronze Age of Western Europe.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 25, 2013, 05:49:15 AM
From What I have read about the Santone tribe is the tribe name has meaning in old Irish I think Sain is River and that they may have had an Italian outpost. The reason not much more info is out there is they helped the Romans so not much was written about them. Researchers and myself do not think these people are the normal Celts. They may having different origins


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on April 25, 2013, 04:29:42 PM
I do not know if this applies to SRY2627, but I have gone back and looked at my 37 marker matches.  Steps 1 through 3 all share the same surname and also are matches with me at 67 markers.  All my 37 marker step 4 matches share a different surname, VanderHoof, Vanderhoef, and Vanderhoff.  When I look at the tip sheet for genetic distance, I show that we share a common ancestor around 1300.  Then I looked at the the history of England at around that time frame and viola, I found something interesting.  1300 is around the time that a huge influx of Flemish weavers flooded England from around the Flanders area due to flooding and other issues.  They were invited to England by Edward I and settled in along the Marches next to Wales.  This is actually the second wave.  The first wave of Flemish arrived with William the Conqueror as his son, Henry was half Flemish.  They were also settled in the Marches and a number of families who went on to become famous, such as the Bruce's and Stewarts might possibly be of Flemish ancestry and not Breton.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 26, 2013, 02:50:45 AM
I do not know if this applies to SRY2627, but I have gone back and looked at my 37 marker matches.  Steps 1 through 3 all share the same surname and also are matches with me at 67 markers.  All my 37 marker step 4 matches share a different surname, VanderHoof, Vanderhoef, and Vanderhoff.  When I look at the tip sheet for genetic distance, I show that we share a common ancestor around 1300.  Then I looked at the the history of England at around that time frame and viola, I found something interesting.  1300 is around the time that a huge influx of Flemish weavers flooded England from around the Flanders area due to flooding and other issues.  They were invited to England by Edward I and settled in along the Marches next to Wales.  This is actually the second wave.  The first wave of Flemish arrived with William the Conqueror as his son, Henry was half Flemish.  They were also settled in the Marches and a number of families who went on to become famous, such as the Bruce's and Stewarts might possibly be of Flemish ancestry and not Breton.

Interesting Flemish connections in Madeira Island too. It's a good possibility though about the weavers. My closest GD is actually Alberti in Northern Italy and also Julliet in around the Vienne region of France. Julliet registers closer to Alberti than I do, I am not sure what to make of it except if I calculated it right my common ancestry with Julliet is around 1300 AD with a GD of 21 at 67 markers, but I am also really close to Alberti at a GD of 17 at 67 markers. Seeing as how 23andMe gives me a small percentage of southern European I would presume to look south and then it gives me a bit higher number east and so it makes sense that Alberti is my closest match so far. After receiving some correspondence from the Mary Rose Trust in regards to yew bows, many were imported from Venice and I'm wondering if this perhaps could be connection with my surname. With Julliet it's near Poitiers and of course Gascony and around the Hundred Years War. I don't know what to make out of it. I did find a John Yeoman who was Yeomen at Eltham Palace around the 1400s late 1390s time frame. I have not been able to make any connection but I figured household servants were also called upon to be archers.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 26, 2013, 04:55:07 AM
Okay, this is getting interesting. I think my relationship to Simon Yeomans who is listed as a fishmonger from St. Botolph by Billingsgate, Middlesex, London is becoming more firm. He is listed on the The Second Charter of the Virginia Company in 1609.

Here's a point I think is interesting. Philip Durette is also mentioned in this charter. Lo and behold, there is a Durrett that is SRY2627 which allegedly traces lineage to him. I think it may be true as my GD to Durrett is 15 at 67 markers. It's the lowest GD to date I have so far.

The GD between the Tune and Durrett is 13 at 67 markers. The Tune family can trace their lineage to Upper Farnham, Northern Neck, VA and there is mention of a James Yeomans and possible relation with a James Tune in the mid 1650s. I have found a few Yeomans surnames in the region that date to an earlier time but I can't connect them.

What I find fascinating is how many SRY2627 cluster around the Richmond, VA area. Simon Yeomans son is Henry Yeomans, which may explain why my great grandfather had an H. as his middle initial. I'm not sure. But this is really becoming interesting. Simon's wife is Mary Barkely, who is the daughter of John Barkely, Esq. of Essex. I have his information somewhere and I can't confirm if this a connection with the Berkley family or not. I don't think it is, but it does point to Essex and perhaps a remote connection to the Appleby line--I don't know.

Anybody hungry for some fish and cheese?

:-)

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 27, 2013, 12:08:25 PM
Va is were my family entered the US in 1700 but at Manikin Town Huguenot settelment. Glad to see your making some head way Arch!!!!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 27, 2013, 05:44:55 PM
Va is were my family entered the US in 1700 but at Manikin Town Huguenot settelment. Glad to see your making some head way Arch!!!!

Thanks. I noticed there was a Captain Yeoman that was suppose to deliver some people to Manikin, VA from London but he couldn't outfit the ship properly. I don't know if there is a connection but I am noticing a few SRY2627 folks in VA with a close GD to me.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 27, 2013, 10:15:16 PM
Ships records said the huguenots were mistreated by the crew. When they got to VA the land reserved for them on the James River had already been taken so they marched them to a abandoned  Manikin Indian village in the woods. My 8th Great Grandfather Jacques Brousse was elected vestryman and was delagated to go to seek more supplies from a near by town for the winter The King sent agents to check on the settlement from time to time records are online


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on April 28, 2013, 02:13:04 AM
Ships records said the huguenots were mistreated by the crew. When they got to VA the land reserved for them on the James River had already been taken so they marched them to a abandoned  Manikin Indian village in the woods. My 8th Great Grandfather Jacques Brousse was elected vestryman and was delagated to go to seek more supplies from a near by town for the winter The King sent agents to check on the settlement from time to time records are online

Also, what I have noticed is that Durrett in our SRY2627 group is a Huguenot. I thought that was interesting as this new SRY2627 is my closest GD at 15 with 67 markers. First, it was Juillet and the Alberti, but this one is pushing me closer to Virginia as a starting point. I don't know of any Huguenot ancestry in my family. Records of Yeomans and Yeoman in Virginia prior to 1700 is spotty at best. The brickwall may be broken through with a possible connection with James Tune as James Yeoman(s) is mentioned. I do remember my uncle stating at times about Yeomans would often be spelled without the letter s. I can't confirm this as being accurate. Tune is at GD of 22 with 76 markers tested. Hopefully, I can get some breakthrough that will confirm 100% my connection with Simon Yeomans or the earlier Yeomans line found in Virginia and possibly the Yeamans line further to Barbados and South Carolina. Short of going on Facebook and looking for any Yeomans to test, I'm getting restless and want answers.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 28, 2013, 05:39:23 AM
I will try and find the manikin town rosters later maybe your kin will be there? Johnny Depp's Family was at Manikin town as well


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: rms2 on April 28, 2013, 08:19:50 AM
Va is were my family entered the US in 1700 but at Manikin Town Huguenot settelment. Glad to see your making some head way Arch!!!!

My 7th great-grandfather, Dr. Paul Micou, was one of the Manakin Town settlers. A couple of years ago I was able to find and photograph his grave over in Essex County, Virginia, not far from where I live.

He is not one of my y-dna ancestors but was the ancestor of one of my 3rd great-grandmothers on my father's side.

The photos aren't the greatest. I plan to go back this summer and get some better ones.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img404/8823/paulm014.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/404/paulm014.jpg/)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img688/3056/paulm002.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/688/paulm002.jpg/)


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on April 28, 2013, 08:30:49 AM
That is cool all I have is a copy of a marriage certificate from the Huguenot church of London dated 1690 showing they were Leather Merchants from the town of Cognac. And the Manikin Town Records


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on April 28, 2013, 02:52:26 PM
I think what we really need besides aDNA, is the discovery of more subclades downstream, so that we can start to look for possible regional groupings.  I think that would start to unravel possible migration routes.  I went through all the surnames of possible and confirmed British origin in the Z220 group in the 1881 British census name profiler and Devon seems to be the hub for Z220.  But next to Devon the entire marches regions of Britain, that western part of England that borders Wales, seems to be a second hub.  In other words, higher in Devon and decreasing out gradually in a north eastern spread.

If there are any subclades downstream of SRY2627 besides the private SNPs. I think it's possible but so far very little has come forth. There was one lingering around for a while but I have no idea where it went to or if it was decided to be a private SNP. If we look at the diversity aspect of SRY2627, for the most part it seems to be a bit higher in Britain than in France. Lots of jumps from one region to another which I'm thinking is due to maritime travel to include upstream on such rivers as the Rhine. I don't think it's that hard to get maritime people inland and a good example how we can find maritime bell beakers in Val d'Aran high up the Garonne/Garona. If anything the major watercourses inland helped to drive the coastal people inland more than the other way around. In terms of mountain life being better or used for a refuge I think it fluctuates depending on the circumstances. I looked at the population histograms of Val d'Aran and was amazed to see in certain periods there was obvious abandonment and then re-population in certain villages--in fact the re-populate villages today do not have the numbers they once had in the 1600s. In fact, Val d'Aran had more people at certain points than it does now (amazing stuff when you really dig into a history and sociology of a region). I like starting from here as obvious, mostly because of the frequency distribution in the Central Pyrenees. I have considered what could cause the extremely low diversity and that perhaps Val d'Aran was the last major clustering of a good portion of SRY2627. The variance being lower in France makes sense from the point that Val d'Aran is really a French facing region. What befuddles me is the higher diversity in Iberia than Germany and Britain (elsewhere it's pretty much a moot point, except to say they are lower than Iberia, Germany, Britain and France).

So that is one reason why I look at SRY2627's variance as an indicator that it was moving around the waterways and coastal ways of Europe. Not that hard to do and that makes it difficult. I think Z262 is what we really need to get a grasp on before we can make any definitive conclusions where SRY2627 originates and of course any downstream SNPs to find the terminal point so to speak. I would say this subclade moved around with great rapidity during the Late Bronze age and that is why we pretty much see it all over Europe. Only in recent history did it cluster and that is the evidence we have today with the academic studies and current corporate genomic data showing a great deal of SRY2627 in Iberia and southerly regions. I find it weird that a subclade that has predominately southern European affinities in studies does not have such with some genomic testing companies. If I am SRY2627+ I would be expecting to see a higher percentage of southern European in my ancestral painting offered by 23andMe and I'm not seeing it--which is really weird but I do see a small percentage of it. Meaning if there's a small percentage than it must mean that my ancestry lies within a zone near the Pyrenees or the Alps. Hopefully we can find a downstream SNP to compare against once we know the distribution of it. But for now we really need to get a grasp on Z262.

Arch



Arch -

Geno 2.0 has revealed several SNPs downstream from SRY2627+: Z207+ and CTS4299+ are two of them.

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: ArmandoR1b on April 28, 2013, 04:45:28 PM
I think what we really need besides aDNA, is the discovery of more subclades downstream, so that we can start to look for possible regional groupings.  I think that would start to unravel possible migration routes.  I went through all the surnames of possible and confirmed British origin in the Z220 group in the 1881 British census name profiler and Devon seems to be the hub for Z220.  But next to Devon the entire marches regions of Britain, that western part of England that borders Wales, seems to be a second hub.  In other words, higher in Devon and decreasing out gradually in a north eastern spread.


If there are any subclades downstream of SRY2627 besides the private SNPs. I think it's possible but so far very little has come forth. There was one lingering around for a while but I have no idea where it went to or if it was decided to be a private SNP. If we look at the diversity aspect of SRY2627, for the most part it seems to be a bit higher in Britain than in France. Lots of jumps from one region to another which I'm thinking is due to maritime travel to include upstream on such rivers as the Rhine. I don't think it's that hard to get maritime people inland and a good example how we can find maritime bell beakers in Val d'Aran high up the Garonne/Garona. If anything the major watercourses inland helped to drive the coastal people inland more than the other way around. In terms of mountain life being better or used for a refuge I think it fluctuates depending on the circumstances. I looked at the population histograms of Val d'Aran and was amazed to see in certain periods there was obvious abandonment and then re-population in certain villages--in fact the re-populate villages today do not have the numbers they once had in the 1600s. In fact, Val d'Aran had more people at certain points than it does now (amazing stuff when you really dig into a history and sociology of a region). I like starting from here as obvious, mostly because of the frequency distribution in the Central Pyrenees. I have considered what could cause the extremely low diversity and that perhaps Val d'Aran was the last major clustering of a good portion of SRY2627. The variance being lower in France makes sense from the point that Val d'Aran is really a French facing region. What befuddles me is the higher diversity in Iberia than Germany and Britain (elsewhere it's pretty much a moot point, except to say they are lower than Iberia, Germany, Britain and France).

So that is one reason why I look at SRY2627's variance as an indicator that it was moving around the waterways and coastal ways of Europe. Not that hard to do and that makes it difficult. I think Z262 is what we really need to get a grasp on before we can make any definitive conclusions where SRY2627 originates and of course any downstream SNPs to find the terminal point so to speak. I would say this subclade moved around with great rapidity during the Late Bronze age and that is why we pretty much see it all over Europe. Only in recent history did it cluster and that is the evidence we have today with the academic studies and current corporate genomic data showing a great deal of SRY2627 in Iberia and southerly regions. I find it weird that a subclade that has predominately southern European affinities in studies does not have such with some genomic testing companies. If I am SRY2627+ I would be expecting to see a higher percentage of southern European in my ancestral painting offered by 23andMe and I'm not seeing it--which is really weird but I do see a small percentage of it. Meaning if there's a small percentage than it must mean that my ancestry lies within a zone near the Pyrenees or the Alps. Hopefully we can find a downstream SNP to compare against once we know the distribution of it. But for now we really need to get a grasp on Z262.

Arch



Arch -

Geno 2.0 has revealed several SNPs downstream from SRY2627+: Z207+ and CTS4299+ are two of them.

Stephen

Where are they mostly found?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: thetick on May 03, 2013, 10:41:55 PM
Geno 2.0 has revealed several SNPs downstream from SRY2627+: Z207+ and CTS4299+ are two of them.

See http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?816-R1b-DF27-Phylogeny-(SNP-based-family-tree)&highlight=sry2627 for the rest of the known SNPs.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 10, 2013, 11:05:15 AM
I'm still thinking the Urnfields are the reason for the subclades predominance in modern-day Iberia. The similarities to the distribution and pooling points are uncanny. Am I saying SRY2627 is most associated with the Urnfield People? Not all of it. But a portion or rather the bulk of it probably is.

Given the age of our subclade and my lack of keeping track of and differentiating between BP and BC, lol, I'd say our mutation occured somewhere in Alpine Europe and the bulk of it kept going south with the Urnfield culture. While smaller outliers moved into other areas and became associated with the Atlantic Bronze movements up and down the coast of France and Britain as well as into the east and the north. I'd say alot of us with British ancestry probably never made it as far south as Iberia. Likely we spread up to Britain via the major rivers in France as has been suggested by Arch, Razyn, Webb.. Well, pretty much all of us in the Z196 boat!

This of course means that I believe that DF27 likely expanded in many different ways and times, as opposed to a simple linear path straight to Iberia and then later regurgitations mostly in the form of Z196. I think the core of it may have been somewhere in Central/Alpine Europe with its P312 brothers, U152 and L21 or Pre-L21. The first and oldest form moved into Iberia, mind you I believe this is DF27*, and spread with the maritime beakers. The other branch that would eventually mutate into the Z196 family stayed in Alpine Europe during this time and didn't really make any waves, at least not yet. I'm guessing it hadn't found a major cultural group to cling to and expand with yet. At least not one that had the vast spread and accessability such as the mid to later bronze age cultures. Seems maritime travel didn't really come into its own until around this time. Amazing how this didn't really happen until our little Z196 group came about. This makes me think that there are loads and loads of undiscovered groups/mutations that simply didn't make it. Numerous smaller groups of the Pre Z196 branch that did expand died off for any number of reasons and we simply don't have evidence or rather we haven't discovered evidence of their existence.. at least not yet anyways.




Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on May 10, 2013, 03:26:30 PM
This of course means that I believe that DF27 likely expanded in many different ways and times, as opposed to a simple linear path straight to Iberia and then later regurgitations mostly in the form of Z196.

I think if you look at Mikewww's descendancy chart for the big three, you will see that U152 and DF27 have a large spread right off the bat, meaning to me, that multiple snps broke off from DF27 and went in a number of different directions, compared to L21, which is very linear, one snp after another, with very little parrellels.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on May 11, 2013, 02:07:58 AM
I'm still thinking the Urnfields are the reason for the subclades predominance in modern-day Iberia. The similarities to the distribution and pooling points are uncanny. Am I saying SRY2627 is most associated with the Urnfield People? Not all of it. But a portion or rather the bulk of it probably is.

Given the age of our subclade and my lack of keeping track of and differentiating between BP and BC, lol, I'd say our mutation occured somewhere in Alpine Europe and the bulk of it kept going south with the Urnfield culture. While smaller outliers moved into other areas and became associated with the Atlantic Bronze movements up and down the coast of France and Britain as well as into the east and the north. I'd say alot of us with British ancestry probably never made it as far south as Iberia. Likely we spread up to Britain via the major rivers in France as has been suggested by Arch, Razyn, Webb.. Well, pretty much all of us in the Z196 boat!

This of course means that I believe that DF27 likely expanded in many different ways and times, as opposed to a simple linear path straight to Iberia and then later regurgitations mostly in the form of Z196. I think the core of it may have been somewhere in Central/Alpine Europe with its P312 brothers, U152 and L21 or Pre-L21. The first and oldest form moved into Iberia, mind you I believe this is DF27*, and spread with the maritime beakers. The other branch that would eventually mutate into the Z196 family stayed in Alpine Europe during this time and didn't really make any waves, at least not yet. I'm guessing it hadn't found a major cultural group to cling to and expand with yet. At least not one that had the vast spread and accessability such as the mid to later bronze age cultures. Seems maritime travel didn't really come into its own until around this time. Amazing how this didn't really happen until our little Z196 group came about. This makes me think that there are loads and loads of undiscovered groups/mutations that simply didn't make it. Numerous smaller groups of the Pre Z196 branch that did expand died off for any number of reasons and we simply don't have evidence or rather we haven't discovered evidence of their existence.. at least not yet anyways.



Not to throw a fly in the ointment, but I'll do it anyway. I'm thinking most movements of populations move up river from a coastal region rather than from upper rivers and downstream. The reason why I say this is due to the rich nutrient resources of rivers where the sediment has built up substantially towards the mouth. For SRY2627 maybe just maybe its a spread from the lower Rhone and upwards and then over. Also, the same thing was occurring Iberia from the lower Ebro and inwards. Just north of the Pyrenees it would have been the Aude River. I suspect these three rivers are of big significance of pushing our subclade into the interior and over to the Atlantic facing rivers. I'm not sure if I should include the Danube but perhaps this would be the main conduit through Central Europe (just not the only one). Most importantly, we must not ever overlook the possibility of a Mediterranean expansion which I believe is more plausible than the inward expansion up the Danube River for our group. The Rhone, Aude, and Ebro all flow out to the Mediterranean Sea and have originate at the crest where the rivers on the opposite side all flow to the Atlantic (Rhone/Rhine) being the exception to the North Sea. However, many feeder rivers to the Atlantic crest up near the Rhone River such as the Cher and Loire Rivers. I suspect the Rhone and Aude are the biggest conduits for our subclade. This goes without saying that it's quite possible there are Danube feeder rivers that reach the crest of rivers that reach the North Sea (Such as where the Danube rises nearest the Rhine), or even the Baltic Sea is one of the contributors to our expansion (but I think this is less likely, but not improbable). So in a nutshell, I pretty much covered all of Europe (less the Arctic region). But for the most part the Aude/Rhone/Ebro River basins seem central to our expansion. I am not however against a Mediterranean Sea to Atlantic Ocean and coastal expansion as this too is quite plausible. Perhaps looking at an Ibero to Amorica coastal expansion and inland from those points and inwards for some into Britain/Ireland. I think I have covered it all. LOL.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on May 11, 2013, 02:11:31 AM
I should clarify. Initial expansion begin from coastal regions, final expansions move over the crest and then downstream until a major body of water is encountered (this again renews the expansion, quite rapidly I must say). Lands divide though they are bridged, Seas Connect because they are crossed by faster moving ships than people or horses in heavily forested terrain.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on May 11, 2013, 05:58:25 AM
Hi all, this post is not directly relevant to DNA, but it might be interesting for some of you to know that I completed a trip to France earlier this month, including visits to the cities of La Rochelle, Bordeaux, Lourdes, and Toulouse (right in the stronghold of SRY2627 territory).  I will be happy to share details and/or pictures with those interested.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on May 11, 2013, 09:48:13 AM
Do you have any pics of Cognac or Talliebourg? My Brousse line are from Cognac and my Cornu line are from Talliebourg


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on May 11, 2013, 01:20:07 PM
You can open Google Maps; go to Cognac, France; drag the little yellow guy from the legend onto the map; and any place the Google camera truck drove you can drive, turn around 360 degrees, zoom on buildings that interest you, etc.  I just checked, so I know it works in Cognac.  Didn't have time to check Talliebourg.  Yep, it also works in Taillebourg (you do have to spell it right, though).


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on May 11, 2013, 04:26:29 PM
Do you have any pics of Cognac or Talliebourg? My Brousse line are from Cognac and my Cornu line are from Talliebourg

Sorry I only have pictures of the cities mentioned above!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on May 12, 2013, 06:55:55 AM
I would like to see an extensive DNA study done on the American Cajuns as many come from SRY2627 areas in France plus many still have a oral history of their family in France. My family's heritage was stripped from us as we lived in English areas and Anglicized our name as well .  Huguenots were not allowed in French colonies 


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on May 12, 2013, 08:03:30 AM
I would like to see an extensive DNA study done on the American Cajuns as many come from SRY2627 areas in France plus many still have a oral history of their family in France. My family's heritage was stripped from us as we lived in English areas and Anglicized our name as well .  Huguenots were not allowed in French colonies 

I have compiled an unofficial list of Cajun surnames with public Y-DNA results.  In the list, only two names have SRY2627:  Bourgeois and Daigre.  Many of them are undifferentiated R1b (meaning that they have not tested for specific subclades), but of the ones that do have a subclade, L21 is the most common.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on May 12, 2013, 09:23:00 AM
Thanks for the Info I had a cousin that went to Cognac last year but did not have any luck finding info on my family. Cognac does have Brousse's there that maybe related. Seems like some of the Catholic cemeteries should have my kin as they would have been Catholic at one time. And Arch I saw a deal on Robin Hood the historic record and they used the old term of Yoemen to discribe a pre Middle class of England this class was able to fight in wars and had land of their own


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on May 12, 2013, 09:55:27 AM
Jason how far are we from eachother DNA wise? On the French DNA group I'm in the A0 Family Group my FTDNA is 148371


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on May 12, 2013, 02:10:19 PM
Jason how far are we from eachother DNA wise? On the French DNA group I'm in the A0 Family Group my FTDNA is 148371

Dear Brousse,

Using the "expanded" Brousse DNA signature (kit 36452), we are a genetic distance of 18 out of 67 markers.  This works out to be approximately 1320 years ago (common ancestor c. 693 AD).


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on May 12, 2013, 03:19:20 PM
The Dark Ages You are my 34st cousin twice removed lol


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 12, 2013, 06:59:40 PM
This of course means that I believe that DF27 likely expanded in many different ways and times, as opposed to a simple linear path straight to Iberia and then later regurgitations mostly in the form of Z196.
I think if you look at Mikewww's descendancy chart for the big three, you will see that U152 and DF27 have a large spread right off the bat, meaning to me, that multiple snps broke off from DF27 and went in a number of different directions, compared to L21, which is very linear, one snp after another, with very little parrellels.
Sorry to be a bit off-topic but just want comment on L21's subclades. I don't think they are long and narrow early. In one sense DF13 is as it seems to have occurred quickly after L21 and has the same modal as L21.

However, DF13, shows a very broad family of early branching subclades from DF49, L513, L1335, DF21, DF41, Z251, Z253, Z255 and CTS4466. These are all are large and seemed to branch underneath of DF13 very early.  DF13 has many parallel subclades that are old and large. If DF13 was discovered, we may hardly be even talking about L21.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on May 13, 2013, 12:35:03 PM
I would like to see an extensive DNA study done on the American Cajuns as many come from SRY2627 areas in France plus many still have a oral history of their family in France. My family's heritage was stripped from us as we lived in English areas and Anglicized our name as well .  Huguenots were not allowed in French colonies 

I do notice a remarkable high frequency of French ancestry SRY2627 as being Huguenots--I am not aware of my family being SRY2627 even though Juillet is the closest GD (near Poitiers). My closest GD is 17 at 67 markers and seems not too distant between a person in southwestern Germany and Northern Italy. The other close GD of 16 at 67 markers has ancestry in the Burgundy area of France.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on May 14, 2013, 08:34:28 AM
Arch I think I'm even closer to Juillet I think he is in my family group of A0 Did you see my post about the use of the term Yoeman in the dark ages in England? Pre Middle Class of people able to bare arms and own land maybe this is where your history is?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 14, 2013, 04:03:36 PM
I should clarify. Initial expansion begin from coastal regions, final expansions move over the crest and then downstream until a major body of water is encountered (this again renews the expansion, quite rapidly I must say). Lands divide though they are bridged, Seas Connect because they are crossed by faster moving ships than people or horses in heavily forested terrain.

Arch

I agree. Thats kinda what I was saying when I mentioned that the Urnfielders (and when I say I urnfield I don't necessarily mean those as far north as southern Germany, Probably Switzerland, Southern France regions,) were the ones who carried the bulk of our subclade down to Iberia and then moved up the rivers you describe to places like the atlantic coast. Expanding mostly due to the more advanced maritime travel of the later phase of the Bronze age. Though I do believe there were outliers who broke off from the main pack, so to speak, and made incursions further North and East and didn't make it to the Atlantic springboards.

The main reason for my last post was mostly to get things shaking and moving again!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 15, 2013, 03:11:33 PM
Jason how far are we from eachother DNA wise? On the French DNA group I'm in the A0 Family Group my FTDNA is 148371

Dear Brousse,

Using the "expanded" Brousse DNA signature (kit 36452), we are a genetic distance of 18 out of 67 markers.  This works out to be approximately 1320 years ago (common ancestor c. 693 AD).

How do you calculate the number of years for a gd? I have a gd of 15 at 67 markers with a French SRY2627 person and was wondering what the time frame would be.

Thanks!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on May 15, 2013, 07:29:19 PM
Jason how far are we from eachother DNA wise? On the French DNA group I'm in the A0 Family Group my FTDNA is 148371

Dear Brousse,

Using the "expanded" Brousse DNA signature (kit 36452), we are a genetic distance of 18 out of 67 markers.  This works out to be approximately 1320 years ago (common ancestor c. 693 AD).

How do you calculate the number of years for a gd? I have a gd of 15 at 67 markers with a French SRY2627 person and was wondering what the time frame would be.

Thanks!

Here is what I do.  Go to this webpage:  http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility.html?mode=ftdna_mode

Change mutation rate to FTDNA, and years/generation to 33. 

Paste a string of DNA markers for each of the two people you are comparing (this can be a bit tricky) and click execute.  It will tell you the GD and estimated years between the two.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 16, 2013, 12:53:36 PM

How do you calculate the number of years for a gd? I have a gd of 15 at 67 markers with a French SRY2627 person and was wondering what the time frame would be.

Thanks!
[/quote]

Here is what I do.  Go to this webpage:  http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility.html?mode=ftdna_mode

Change mutation rate to FTDNA, and years/generation to 33.  

Paste a string of DNA markers for each of the two people you are comparing (this can be a bit tricky) and click execute.  It will tell you the GD and estimated years between the two.
[/quote]

Thanks! It was a bit aggravating trying to copy paste all of the values into the given box. But I finally just copy pasted the values onto a seperate sheet that didn't cause the large spacings and then re-copy pasted it into the given box. Worked just fine that way.

Its saying our (Mine and the Frenchmans) tmrca was around 1056 years ago ( 957 AD) meaning a Breton/Briton migration origin for our line wouldn't have been as likely as I once assumed. The more I learn the less I know! Given the time-frame, I am beginning to also look at possible Germanic theories and dare I say it... Vikings!

They were raiding during this time in both Devon and Brittany. I don't see why one of them couldn't have left a few children here and there. I know its not likely, but hey, this is a hobby. Whats the point of it if you can't have a bit of fun speculating on something you'll probably never be able to prove or disprove anyways!? An interesting note is that the Frenchmans family didn't speak Breton and instead spoke Gallo. They were actually located in Ruca, Brittany.. Closer to Normandy.

"The Vikings started to raid the Seine Valley during the middle of 9th century. After attacking and destroying monasteries, including one at Jumièges, they took advantage of the power vacuum created by the disintegration of Charlemagne's empire to take northern France. The fiefdom of Normandy was created for the Scandinavian Viking leader Rollo (also known as Robert of Normandy). Rollo had besieged Paris but in 911 entered vassalage to the king of the West Franks, Charles the Simple, through the Treaty of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte. In exchange for his homage and fealty, Rollo legally gained the territory which he and his Viking allies had previously conquered. The name "Normandy" reflects Rollo's Viking (i.e. "Northman") origins.
 
The descendants of Rollo and his followers adopted the local Gallo-Romance language and intermarried with the area's original inhabitants. They became the Normans – a Norman-speaking mixture of Scandinavians, Hiberno-Norse, Saxons, Orcadians, Anglo-Danish, and indigenous Franks and Gauls."

Not saying this is for sure, just looking at all the angles. The period that we last shared a common ancestor was during the Viking age and his family roots are very close to Normany and in a village very close to the coast. I dunno, maybe I'm reading too much into it.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on May 16, 2013, 01:40:36 PM

How do you calculate the number of years for a gd? I have a gd of 15 at 67 markers with a French SRY2627 person and was wondering what the time frame would be.

Thanks!

Here is what I do.  Go to this webpage:  http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility.html?mode=ftdna_mode

Change mutation rate to FTDNA, and years/generation to 33.  

Paste a string of DNA markers for each of the two people you are comparing (this can be a bit tricky) and click execute.  It will tell you the GD and estimated years between the two.
[/quote]

Thanks! It was a bit aggravating trying to copy paste all of the values into the given box. But I finally just copy pasted the values onto a seperate sheet that didn't cause the large spacings and then re-copy pasted it into the given box. Worked just fine that way.

Its saying our (Mine and the Frenchmans) tmrca was around 1056 years ago ( 957 AD) meaning a Breton/Briton migration origin for our line wouldn't have been as likely as I once assumed. The more I learn the less I know! Given the time-frame, I am beginning to also look at possible Germanic theories and dare I say it... Vikings!

They were raiding during this time in both Devon and Brittany. I don't see why one of them couldn't have left a few children here and there. I know its not likely, but hey, this is a hobby. Whats the point of it if you can't have a bit of fun speculating on something you'll probably never be able to prove or disprove anyways!? An interesting note is that the Frenchmans family didn't speak Breton and instead spoke Gallo. They were actually located in Ruca, Brittany.. Closer to Normandy.

"The Vikings started to raid the Seine Valley during the middle of 9th century. After attacking and destroying monasteries, including one at Jumièges, they took advantage of the power vacuum created by the disintegration of Charlemagne's empire to take northern France. The fiefdom of Normandy was created for the Scandinavian Viking leader Rollo (also known as Robert of Normandy). Rollo had besieged Paris but in 911 entered vassalage to the king of the West Franks, Charles the Simple, through the Treaty of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte. In exchange for his homage and fealty, Rollo legally gained the territory which he and his Viking allies had previously conquered. The name "Normandy" reflects Rollo's Viking (i.e. "Northman") origins.
 
The descendants of Rollo and his followers adopted the local Gallo-Romance language and intermarried with the area's original inhabitants. They became the Normans – a Norman-speaking mixture of Scandinavians, Hiberno-Norse, Saxons, Orcadians, Anglo-Danish, and indigenous Franks and Gauls."

Not saying this is for sure, just looking at all the angles. The period that we last shared a common ancestor was during the Viking age and his family roots are very close to Normany and in a village very close to the coast. I dunno, maybe I'm reading too much into it.

[/quote]

Keep in mind that usually there is a "plus/minus" for those calculations.  If it is 950 at a common ancestor, it might be "plus/minus" however many years.  950 is not too far off from 1066, and there were Bretons who invaded England with the Normans.  Just a thought.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 16, 2013, 01:58:29 PM
Thats true. Also, There was such an intermingling amongst the people who would become the Normans, that it is nearly impossible to tell. Normans were actually next on the list of "what if's?".


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on May 16, 2013, 04:47:19 PM
Thats true. Also, There was such an intermingling amongst the people who would become the Normans, that it is nearly impossible to tell. Normans were actually next on the list of "what if's?".

That's about the same genetic distance I am from the Vanderhoof's of the Netherlands.  So same deal.  We could have arrived in Britain in a few different scenarios, Anglo-Saxon, Viking, Norman, or Flemish weavers.  My line in Britain is no older than Saxons and no newer than Flemish weavers.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on May 16, 2013, 07:36:46 PM
  I think it would be cool to figure all of our GD from each other and locations we maybe able to do a little detective work and figure what wave we came in on . Like some one from the same ancient family group in different locations. I don't know how rare this is  but All of my 5th Great Grandfathers descendants still match at 67 markers after over 200 years I only have a 37 marker test but match his descendants at 37  with this being the case how can we judge 33 years as a Generation ?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on May 17, 2013, 01:19:00 AM

How do you calculate the number of years for a gd? I have a gd of 15 at 67 markers with a French SRY2627 person and was wondering what the time frame would be.

Thanks!

Here is what I do.  Go to this webpage:  http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility.html?mode=ftdna_mode

Change mutation rate to FTDNA, and years/generation to 33.  

Paste a string of DNA markers for each of the two people you are comparing (this can be a bit tricky) and click execute.  It will tell you the GD and estimated years between the two.

Thanks! It was a bit aggravating trying to copy paste all of the values into the given box. But I finally just copy pasted the values onto a seperate sheet that didn't cause the large spacings and then re-copy pasted it into the given box. Worked just fine that way.

Its saying our (Mine and the Frenchmans) tmrca was around 1056 years ago ( 957 AD) meaning a Breton/Briton migration origin for our line wouldn't have been as likely as I once assumed. The more I learn the less I know! Given the time-frame, I am beginning to also look at possible Germanic theories and dare I say it... Vikings!

They were raiding during this time in both Devon and Brittany. I don't see why one of them couldn't have left a few children here and there. I know its not likely, but hey, this is a hobby. Whats the point of it if you can't have a bit of fun speculating on something you'll probably never be able to prove or disprove anyways!? An interesting note is that the Frenchmans family didn't speak Breton and instead spoke Gallo. They were actually located in Ruca, Brittany.. Closer to Normandy.

"The Vikings started to raid the Seine Valley during the middle of 9th century. After attacking and destroying monasteries, including one at Jumièges, they took advantage of the power vacuum created by the disintegration of Charlemagne's empire to take northern France. The fiefdom of Normandy was created for the Scandinavian Viking leader Rollo (also known as Robert of Normandy). Rollo had besieged Paris but in 911 entered vassalage to the king of the West Franks, Charles the Simple, through the Treaty of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte. In exchange for his homage and fealty, Rollo legally gained the territory which he and his Viking allies had previously conquered. The name "Normandy" reflects Rollo's Viking (i.e. "Northman") origins.
 
The descendants of Rollo and his followers adopted the local Gallo-Romance language and intermarried with the area's original inhabitants. They became the Normans – a Norman-speaking mixture of Scandinavians, Hiberno-Norse, Saxons, Orcadians, Anglo-Danish, and indigenous Franks and Gauls."

Not saying this is for sure, just looking at all the angles. The period that we last shared a common ancestor was during the Viking age and his family roots are very close to Normany and in a village very close to the coast. I dunno, maybe I'm reading too much into it.

[/quote]

Keep in mind that usually there is a "plus/minus" for those calculations.  If it is 950 at a common ancestor, it might be "plus/minus" however many years.  950 is not too far off from 1066, and there were Bretons who invaded England with the Normans.  Just a thought.
[/quote]

I wonder what the Poitevin connection might be with the Norman Conquest of 1066 AD. I think the Bretons were mostly archers which can be seen on the Bayeux Tapestry. I really would not be surprised to see a Norman connection with a large percentage of SRY2627 since it gets us closer to L165 with a Norse connection and Normans were found all over the place such as Sicily, El Hierro Island, Tunisia, etc.

[Late Night Edit] I am more convinced though of a Roman connection than anything past the 400 AD mark for the subclade. With the huge diaspora created with the Roman expansion anything afterwards is just more layers of tinier diasporas (diasporae?) LOL. Let's face it, the molecular age of the subclade is about the most accurate thing we have stretching back between 800 BCE to c. 1500 BCE. Then we need to account for the "Celtic diaspora" of the earlier Iron Age or Late Bronze Age which was probably greater than the Roman epic diaspora of several peoples/tribes.

I wished we had more data from Roman remains and maybe work back from there. Anybody know the status of the Roman dig in Paris just a year or so ago? I recall they were on an ambitious project to get DNA samples.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on May 17, 2013, 06:47:47 AM
Arch when the tribes of the Bay of Biscay built the ships for Rome for the invasion of England no doubt they would have manned the ships with experienced locals that may have been trading there for years IMO.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on May 17, 2013, 10:35:30 AM

Keep in mind that usually there is a "plus/minus" for those calculations.  If it is 950 at a common ancestor, it might be "plus/minus" however many years.  950 is not too far off from 1066, and there were Bretons who invaded England with the Normans.  Just a thought.

Yes, I think Breton would be the most likely cultural association for a common ancestor in 950.  There was much crossing of the channel between Brittany and Devon/Cornwall, and the Breton and Cornish languages are very closely related.  The Bretons would have been in Normandy long before the invasion by Norsemen in that region as well.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 17, 2013, 01:25:31 PM

I wonder what the Poitevin connection might be with the Norman Conquest of 1066 AD. I think the Bretons were mostly archers which can be seen on the Bayeux Tapestry. I really would not be surprised to see a Norman connection with a large percentage of SRY2627 since it gets us closer to L165 with a Norse connection and Normans were found all over the place such as Sicily, El Hierro Island, Tunisia, etc.

[Late Night Edit] I am more convinced though of a Roman connection than anything past the 400 AD mark for the subclade. With the huge diaspora created with the Roman expansion anything afterwards is just more layers of tinier diasporas (diasporae?) LOL. Let's face it, the molecular age of the subclade is about the most accurate thing we have stretching back between 800 BCE to c. 1500 BCE. Then we need to account for the "Celtic diaspora" of the earlier Iron Age or Late Bronze Age which was probably greater than the Roman epic diaspora of several peoples/tribes.

I wished we had more data from Roman remains and maybe work back from there. Anybody know the status of the Roman dig in Paris just a year or so ago? I recall they were on an ambitious project to get DNA samples.

Arch
[/quote]

Yes, it probably was introduced via the Normans. I agree with that. 957 AD isn't far from 1066 AD and given the uncertain accuracy of these tmrca predictors it may have been closer to the time of the Normans. "William assembled a large invasion fleet and an army gathered not only from Normandy but from all over France, including large contingents from Brittany and Flanders."

My cousin's family history... "Our family story is this that our surname originated during or after the Crusade of Richard I (Lion-Heart) in the 1190s and that our farm was bestowed by him in reward of Crusader service.  (I've read that returning crusaders often gave their children Old Testament names to showcase that religious/political service--although my family claims that Richard I personally bestowed the Isaac name.)  When surnames became common in England around 1500, some of those crusader names became censused as surnames."

The fact that Richard was also the Duke of Normandy and the fact that my family seemed to have a great respect for him, makes a Norman connection all the more irresistible.

I'd say ancient ethinicity was Gaulish and eventually blended with the Normans during their time period. I don't see Breton as a likely source, as the Frenchman I share this connection with has roots in the Gallo speaking region of Brittany. His surname "Grouazel" is also Gallo derived. So our common ancestor was likely from Brittany, but I wouldn't say that he was of Breton stock.

*Also

"The many great estates subsequently held by William’s barons in Devon were known as "honours". Chief amongst them were Plympton, Okehampton, Barnstaple, Totnes and Harberton."   

Perhaps this is how my family ended up in Devon? The family seems to have always had a military association, that exists to this day. We may not have been Barons of said cities, but we could have been something in the ranks of military/guard service to these Barons.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on May 18, 2013, 10:00:12 AM
Many Families that came with the Duke in 1066 can find tax info in the Doomsday book


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 18, 2013, 02:57:32 PM
Many Families that came with the Duke in 1066 can find tax info in the Doomsday book

Thanks for the info, but I don't think it would be of much help to me. My surname didn't come into existence until a hundred or so years after the Norman invasion, maybe longer. I have no idea what their name would've been before the adoption of Isaac as a surname.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 18, 2013, 08:02:35 PM
I wanted to test to see how far off the tmrca predictor was, so I chose to compare myself with a family member. My family member and I last shared a common male ancestor 219 years ago. Our tmrca was predicted as being 297 years ago. So, there was only a 78 year difference. Not bad. I applied this same bit of info to my connection with the Frenchman and that puts us at a Tmrca occuring in 1033 AD as opposed to 957 AD. Of course if I take that same 78 year difference and subtract it from our base tmrca of 957 then we end up sharing a common ancestor in 879. If we even share a common ancestor at all. Its a pretty faint connection and I'm starting to wonder if its worth pursuing.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on May 19, 2013, 06:59:05 AM
Again I don't see how we can figure this . Without a paper trail or way more markers tested .If you still match a cousin after 200plus years 100% what good is GD on guessing the age of any clade? I have a complete family history and some of my matches  that are 37 for 37 for me and the ones with 67 maker are 67 for 67 all of us descend from My 5th Great Grandfather Arnold Bruce Rev War Veteran of NC we are talking over 200 years and still match. Now a mutation did happen between Arnold and his Brother the number 12 Marker mutated from 30 to 31 Arnolds line having the newer 31


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: razyn on May 19, 2013, 10:59:09 AM
If you still match a cousin after 200plus years 100% what good is GD on guessing the age of any clade?

GD is not a particularly precise science, or term of science.  It's a creation of genealogists and is kind of useful in their near-term comparisons, such as the one you mention in which a difference of one allele on the relatively fast mutator DYS 389-2 indicates descent from a different uncle.  That may not be the only mutation, up or down, in this lineage; it's one you know about.  Other lineages have more, or fewer (mine has more) in two or three hundred years.

The more scientific term is variance, and its more scientific use is in comparing significantly larger samples, that are significantly less closely related via paper trails, etc.  These data become subject to the "law of large numbers" and thus statistically meaningful.  One allele can still go up and down randomly, more in one person than another and therefore (sometimes) more in one clade than another; but the large numbers tend to level this effect.

It is often alleged in our circles that SNP testing (and the STR variance calculation that may be able to date it, relative to other SNPs) is for anthropology, not genealogy.  I don't agree with that, and think that formulation reflects a tendency toward myopia in genealogists as a class.  But people who have both interests, or skill sets, don't see the need to separate the goals and methods of the one (genealogy) from the other (anthropology).

The same researcher can look at a sunset, the full moon, the moons of Jupiter, the Andromeda "nebula," or a photo from the Hubble telescope showing a few thousand galaxies in one frame.  It doesn't make you a different person to look farther away.  But it might put your revolutionary war veteran, or your Huguenot refugee ancestor, or William the Conqueror, in a little different frame of reference.  Those guys were not all that long ago, if one is also interested in one's paternal line from genetic Adam.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on May 19, 2013, 01:04:41 PM
Thanks Razyn My Family Anglitized the surname of Brousse to Bruce here in America. I'm not related to the Duke of Normandy that I know of


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 19, 2013, 01:14:08 PM
If you still match a cousin after 200plus years 100% what good is GD on guessing the age of any clade?

GD is not a particularly precise science, or term of science.  It's a creation of genealogists and is kind of useful in their near-term comparisons, such as the one you mention in which a difference of one allele on the relatively fast mutator DYS 389-2 indicates descent from a different uncle.  That may not be the only mutation, up or down, in this lineage; it's one you know about.  Other lineages have more, or fewer (mine has more) in two or three hundred years.

The more scientific term is variance, and its more scientific use is in comparing significantly larger samples, that are significantly less closely related via paper trails, etc.  These data become subject to the "law of large numbers" and thus statistically meaningful.  One allele can still go up and down randomly, more in one person than another and therefore (sometimes) more in one clade than another; but the large numbers tend to level this effect.

It is often alleged in our circles that SNP testing (and the STR variance calculation that may be able to date it, relative to other SNPs) is for anthropology, not genealogy.  I don't agree with that, and think that formulation reflects a tendency toward myopia in genealogists as a class.  But people who have both interests, or skill sets, don't see the need to separate the goals and methods of the one (genealogy) from the other (anthropology).

The same researcher can look at a sunset, the full moon, the moons of Jupiter, the Andromeda "nebula," or a photo from the Hubble telescope showing a few thousand galaxies in one frame.  It doesn't make you a different person to look farther away.  But it might put your revolutionary war veteran, or your Huguenot refugee ancestor, or William the Conqueror, in a little different frame of reference.  Those guys were not all that long ago, if one is also interested in one's paternal line from genetic Adam.

Good post. I completely agree.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on May 24, 2013, 01:40:50 AM
I have given this some thought. SRY2627 being mostly predominant in Iberia and Southern Gaul albeit not exclusive to the region, but where it's found outside of these two regions seems to favor areas nearest where Rome expanded towards Germania. Regardless the subclade is estimated to have a date of emergence around 1350 BCE, I'm wondering how much influence a later Rome had on SRY2627 people who seem to be in the closest proximity of the Roman sphere of influence as the Romans expanded north and west into other parts of Europe. The first expansion of Rome towards the west is via Iberia then north towards Gaul and lastly Germania.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 28, 2013, 10:44:12 PM
I have given this some thought. SRY2627 being mostly predominant in Iberia and Southern Gaul albeit not exclusive to the region, but where it's found outside of these two regions seems to favor areas nearest where Rome expanded towards Germania. Regardless the subclade is estimated to have a date of emergence around 1350 BCE, I'm wondering how much influence a later Rome had on SRY2627 people who seem to be in the closest proximity of the Roman sphere of influence as the Romans expanded north and west into other parts of Europe. The first expansion of Rome towards the west is via Iberia then north towards Gaul and lastly Germania.

I'm still leaning towards the Urnfield culture being our groups main reason for wide dispersal and pooling in eastern Spain. Their arrival to Iberia is just after SRY2627 was probably born and their spread is very close to that which we see today.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on May 29, 2013, 11:17:42 AM
Where did they come from Sam?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on May 29, 2013, 06:11:05 PM
Where did they come from Sam?


Here's a good read up of them.. "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture"

If you look at the maps provided you'll see why I view them the way that I do. One of their main expansions was south into modern-day Catalonia. The culture spread in many different directions, many of the places we see today, so that accounts for the large dispersal. I'm not saying every single SRY2627 person was spread with this culture, but I do think a lot of it travelled with it. I wouldn't focus too much on Atlantic France and the Isles not being in the territories that the Urnfields were found in. I think SRY2627 was a later arrival to the more extreme western ends of Europe, such as the Isles and places like Brittany. There just aren't enough occurrences in the Isles for me to think the sub clade has been there for long. I'd say a lot of it was brought via the Normans, Perhaps Flemish weavers and probably even the Roman military bringing in troops from God knows where. 


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on June 07, 2013, 08:27:00 AM
I would guess my family had been in France at least as long as the onset of Surnames. You do see some French with Spanish surnames  Brousse is called Old French. So no I can't guarantee anything further back than the 13 to 1400s


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on June 08, 2013, 12:45:41 AM
I would guess my family had been in France at least as long as the onset of Surnames. You do see some French with Spanish surnames  Brousse is called Old French. So no I can't guarantee anything further back than the 13 to 1400s

Most likely so. That's as far back as most of seem to get and France is definitely a DF27 rich environment. I'd say if I actually dug deeper and started paying more money I could probably get my Isaac family that far back in Devon. As it stands I have it traced to a Thomas Isaac in the 1640's who was listed as a yeoman of winkleigh.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on June 08, 2013, 08:43:19 AM
Seems like most of us SRY2627 persons come from the Rare Middle class of Europe As a Yeoman is a pre middle class person able to own land and bare arms I come from a landed educated Merchant family of France


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on June 10, 2013, 05:06:16 PM
Seems like most of us SRY2627 persons come from the Rare Middle class of Europe As a Yeoman is a pre middle class person able to own land and bare arms I come from a landed educated Merchant family of France

They were more common than you think..

"In the late 14th to 18th centuries, yeomen were farmers who owned land (freehold, leasehold or copyhold). Their wealth and the size of their landholding varied.

Many yeomen were prosperous, and wealthy enough to employ servants and farm labourers. Some were as wealthy as the minor county or regional landed gentry and some even leased land to gentleman landowners. Some could be classed as gentlemen but did not aspire to this status: it was cheaper to remain a yeoman. Often it was hard to distinguish minor landed gentry from the wealthier yeomen, and wealthier husbandmen from the poorer yeomen. Some yeomen in the later Tudor and Stuart periods were descended from medieval military yeomen. This is attested mainly by weapons found above fireplace mantles in the West Midlands of England (especially in the border shires)."


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 16, 2013, 05:32:24 AM
Seems like most of us SRY2627 persons come from the Rare Middle class of Europe As a Yeoman is a pre middle class person able to own land and bare arms I come from a landed educated Merchant family of France

They were more common than you think..

"In the late 14th to 18th centuries, yeomen were farmers who owned land (freehold, leasehold or copyhold). Their wealth and the size of their landholding varied.

Many yeomen were prosperous, and wealthy enough to employ servants and farm labourers. Some were as wealthy as the minor county or regional landed gentry and some even leased land to gentleman landowners. Some could be classed as gentlemen but did not aspire to this status: it was cheaper to remain a yeoman. Often it was hard to distinguish minor landed gentry from the wealthier yeomen, and wealthier husbandmen from the poorer yeomen. Some yeomen in the later Tudor and Stuart periods were descended from medieval military yeomen. This is attested mainly by weapons found above fireplace mantles in the West Midlands of England (especially in the border shires)."


There are so many convoluted descriptions of what a yeoman is. The later 19th Century descriptions seem to associate 'yeoman' with rank or status of a farmer. Thus it seems like always point to a wealthy or prosperous farmer which makes absolutely no sense as to the original meaning of it. During the earlier periods predating the Elizabethan period it seems 'yeomen' were attendants in a noble or royal household. Looking at the Field of Cloth of Gold we see yeomen bodyguards for King Henry VII and yeomen bodyguards for Cardinal Wolsey . So the term now around this period and earlier is connected to both household attendants as well bodyguards as a dual function. This can be in the Black Book of the Household with 'yeomen of the crown' and 'yeomen of the chamber' both are to be expert archers and basically are the predecessors of the permanent 'yeomen of the guard' and later 'yeomen warders of the tower of London.' I found a 'Yeoman Usher of the Black Rod who also performs a sort of attending and security of the House of Lords. Of course we must not forget Chaucer and his Knight's Yeoman who is armed to the teeth apparently on a pilgrimage to Canterbury after returning from a crusade in attendance to his knight. I would guess the Knight is also Forester or Chief Forester and the Yeoman is his deputy or underforester. The Canon's Yeoman just as the Cardinal Wolsey's yeomen appears to have a 'yeoman' servant performing duties for the Ecclesiastical powers too. I have no idea how far back it goes except that I see it in the Patent Rolls of Edward II's time as 'King's Yeoman'. I would be remiss if I didn't mention the ballads of Robin Hood which probably is based on some event around the Angevin period. It seems like the term 'valet' or 'varlet' was borrowed from the French or Latin to describe them but I see no etymological connection. I would guess that they were modeled of the French royal bodyguard from when Henry VII was exiled in Brittany or even more likely a concept of an earlier period.

A constant thread connected to 'yeomen' is archery, forestry, royal and noble bodyguard and/or household attendant among serving the sovereign's interest abroad and throughout the kingdom. I'm aware that 'yeomen of the crown' would make arrests and 'yeomen of the guard' even served as constables of Tournai. Pollard claims 'yeoman' is a contraction of 'yongerman' or something like that. It makes sense maybe in the aspect when combined with 'manservant' and is first known or is first mentioned in the forest laws of King Cnut (though it's disputed he actually wrote them). If this is true I wonder if it's connected to some way to Huscarl which is a royal bodyguard of ceorls or churls. Who knows? A ceorl or peasant is less of a threat to royalty than his own jealous nobles, cousins, uncles, and brothers (the Romans did the same thing with Praetorian Guard with Germanic people who were more loyal to the Emperor than his own peers or Roman companions). What I can't seem to find is the term 'yeoman' in the Anglo-Saxon reign. So what's left? Viking incursion period or perhaps the reign of the Dane Kings of the Danelaw period. No idea. It just seems the first royal bodyguard of England was really from the Danes as the Huscarls. I tend to favor the Dane King and also Norwegian King or Viking connections because of the cool sounding names like Forkbeard, Ivan the Boneless, Bluetooth, etc. Edward the Confessor, Harold, Edmund, Alfred the Great, are great men but they sound boring. The only really later cool sounding kings were William the Conqueror and Richard the Lionheart. George, William , Edward, James--yawn!

One long association with 'yeoman' is with the famous yew war bow aka longbow of the Hundred Years War. 'Yeoman' is definitely is not derived from 'yewman' though perhaps it could sound similar. I think the term has to predate the Hundred Years War. What is interesting is how the word 'yeoman' has maintained somewhat of a presence as miscellaneous occupations or rating within most armed forces of English speaking countries today. Of course, the 'Yeomen Usher of the Black Rod is a Lt Col', 'Yeomen Warders and Yeomen of the Bodyguard are retired service members with at least 22 years of service who have earned a meritorious service medal.  The earlier bodyguards carried bows instead of the halberds and/or various other pole weapons. It's funny and interesting how people today think 'yeomen' as farmers from the 18th and 19th Centuries or as some clerk in the U.S. Navy or position on the Star Trek Enterprise. LOL!

Arch



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on June 16, 2013, 11:58:02 PM
@Arch

I was hoping you would reply! Seeing as how your last name is "Yeoman", I figured you'd be more informed than I am on the subject.

There does some to be a correlation with SRY2627 people and the military though. I'm sure its just a coincidence though.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on June 17, 2013, 06:17:01 PM
The Family of De La Roche has contacted me they are my only 12 marker match non surname match so I'm hoping we can exchange info

Have they tested beyond the basic twelve markers?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 17, 2013, 06:53:51 PM
@Arch

I was hoping you would reply! Seeing as how your last name is "Yeoman", I figured you'd be more informed than I am on the subject.

There does some to be a correlation with SRY2627 people and the military though. I'm sure its just a coincidence though.

I wonder how it might relate to the Angles or later Danes. Yesterday, I watched nearly all 5 hours of BBC's Blood of the Vikings and was pondering some ideas. I think if we see the 'term' arise around 14th Century that is still has a much older connection to its origins. I don't think it just magically appeared during the early 1300s even though it's the first time we actually see it used in royal documents. With looking at the term gentry and gentleman I don't see any correlation until around the Tudor period except they are of different social status, rank, and or privileges. Going with Holt's concept followed support by A.J. Pollard that 'yeomen' basically is a contraction of 'yongerman' and connected with the keeping of royal forests under a knight or chief forester. How 'yongerman' were used in the royal household I am still trying to find a connection and so far the best one would be related to the Huscarls as being serving peasants to the king.  In Beowulf there appears to be 'geongra and geongre mannus' which are obvious retainers. So it look's like it has more of an origin in the Danelaw region or at best earliest in the Angle region of early Britain (which is really mostly the Danelaw region much later on). The concept of Robin Hood and his 'yongmen' or 'yeoman' wearing the color of Lincoln Green (obviously from ancient Lindsey, which was originally Angle territory).
Even the stories of Robin Hood is mostly focused in Yorkshire, Barnsdale, Derbyshire, and Nottingham with some excursions to London towards "shooter's hill." This is all speculative of course, but I'm looking for the earliest use of archers in England.

Aside from the Silures and ancient Britons the Saxons themselves do not appear to be much fans of archery or have archers. The only time an archer or archery is even mentioned is after the arrival of the Vikings. However, I found it interesting that the Norwegian king attempting to invade England was struck by an archer but this was after the Danes had settled. In fact, at the Battle of Hastings we see the Huscarls fighting along the Saxon king but was a borrowed relic from the rule of the Dane kings. So far it looks like the Germanics that brought archery to Britain are for the most part the Danes--though I wonder the possibility of Angles doing the same.

With DNA I pondered the possibility of a more ancient Cimbri connection as they along with the Angles originate from the same area and Cimbri are usually called Celtic. The Cimbri ended up in Tolouse and the Pyrenees, as well norther Italy so they sort of spread out nicely where SRY2627 is found today. They also are not too far off from our brother Norwegian Viking clade of L165. So maybe SRY2627 has a nordic origins and then migrated southwards towards Iberia and Italy.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on June 17, 2013, 07:50:21 PM
@Arch

I was hoping you would reply! Seeing as how your last name is "Yeoman", I figured you'd be more informed than I am on the subject.

There does some to be a correlation with SRY2627 people and the military though. I'm sure its just a coincidence though.

I wonder how it might relate to the Angles or later Danes. Yesterday, I watched nearly all 5 hours of BBC's Blood of the Vikings and was pondering some ideas. I think if we see the 'term' arise around 14th Century that is still has a much older connection to its origins. I don't think it just magically appeared during the early 1300s even though it's the first time we actually see it used in royal documents. With looking at the term gentry and gentleman I don't see any correlation until around the Tudor period except they are of different social status, rank, and or privileges. Going with Holt's concept followed support by A.J. Pollard that 'yeomen' basically is a contraction of 'yongerman' and connected with the keeping of royal forests under a knight or chief forester. How 'yongerman' were used in the royal household I am still trying to find a connection and so far the best one would be related to the Huscarls as being serving peasants to the king.  In Beowulf there appears to be 'geongra and geongre mannus' which are obvious retainers. So it look's like it has more of an origin in the Danelaw region or at best earliest in the Angle region of early Britain (which is really mostly the Danelaw region much later on). The concept of Robin Hood and his 'yongmen' or 'yeoman' wearing the color of Lincoln Green (obviously from ancient Lindsey, which was originally Angle territory).
Even the stories of Robin Hood is mostly focused in Yorkshire, Barnsdale, Derbyshire, and Nottingham with some excursions to London towards "shooter's hill." This is all speculative of course, but I'm looking for the earliest use of archers in England.

Aside from the Silures and ancient Britons the Saxons themselves do not appear to be much fans of archery or have archers. The only time an archer or archery is even mentioned is after the arrival of the Vikings. However, I found it interesting that the Norwegian king attempting to invade England was struck by an archer but this was after the Danes had settled. In fact, at the Battle of Hastings we see the Huscarls fighting along the Saxon king but was a borrowed relic from the rule of the Dane kings. So far it looks like the Germanics that brought archery to Britain are for the most part the Danes--though I wonder the possibility of Angles doing the same.

With DNA I pondered the possibility of a more ancient Cimbri connection as they along with the Angles originate from the same area and Cimbri are usually called Celtic. The Cimbri ended up in Tolouse and the Pyrenees, as well norther Italy so they sort of spread out nicely where SRY2627 is found today. They also are not too far off from our brother Norwegian Viking clade of L165. So maybe SRY2627 has a nordic origins and then migrated southwards towards Iberia and Italy.

Arch

I brought up that theory for the north/south cluster in a different forum, the North Sea origin, then moving west into England and south into France and Spain.  I was quickly pounced upon.  So far the Geno 2.0 results has confirmed a dividing point between the Dutch/British nort/south folks and the French/Spanish north/south folks.  The Dutch/British are negative for the more recent clades, stopping at Z210, which is one more downstream of Z220.  The French/Spanish results are coming back positive for three to four more snps below Z210.  So either a group of Z210 split off heading north from Spain/France and went into Britain and the Netherlands, leaving the remaining Z210 in Spain/France, where they continued to accrue downstream snps that the northern group did not accrue, or Z210 originated in the North Sea area and then accrued these further downstream snps enroute to or after they settled in Spain/France.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 17, 2013, 10:19:33 PM
@Arch

I was hoping you would reply! Seeing as how your last name is "Yeoman", I figured you'd be more informed than I am on the subject.

There does some to be a correlation with SRY2627 people and the military though. I'm sure its just a coincidence though.

I wonder how it might relate to the Angles or later Danes. Yesterday, I watched nearly all 5 hours of BBC's Blood of the Vikings and was pondering some ideas. I think if we see the 'term' arise around 14th Century that is still has a much older connection to its origins. I don't think it just magically appeared during the early 1300s even though it's the first time we actually see it used in royal documents. With looking at the term gentry and gentleman I don't see any correlation until around the Tudor period except they are of different social status, rank, and or privileges. Going with Holt's concept followed support by A.J. Pollard that 'yeomen' basically is a contraction of 'yongerman' and connected with the keeping of royal forests under a knight or chief forester. How 'yongerman' were used in the royal household I am still trying to find a connection and so far the best one would be related to the Huscarls as being serving peasants to the king.  In Beowulf there appears to be 'geongra and geongre mannus' which are obvious retainers. So it look's like it has more of an origin in the Danelaw region or at best earliest in the Angle region of early Britain (which is really mostly the Danelaw region much later on). The concept of Robin Hood and his 'yongmen' or 'yeoman' wearing the color of Lincoln Green (obviously from ancient Lindsey, which was originally Angle territory).
Even the stories of Robin Hood is mostly focused in Yorkshire, Barnsdale, Derbyshire, and Nottingham with some excursions to London towards "shooter's hill." This is all speculative of course, but I'm looking for the earliest use of archers in England.

Aside from the Silures and ancient Britons the Saxons themselves do not appear to be much fans of archery or have archers. The only time an archer or archery is even mentioned is after the arrival of the Vikings. However, I found it interesting that the Norwegian king attempting to invade England was struck by an archer but this was after the Danes had settled. In fact, at the Battle of Hastings we see the Huscarls fighting along the Saxon king but was a borrowed relic from the rule of the Dane kings. So far it looks like the Germanics that brought archery to Britain are for the most part the Danes--though I wonder the possibility of Angles doing the same.

With DNA I pondered the possibility of a more ancient Cimbri connection as they along with the Angles originate from the same area and Cimbri are usually called Celtic. The Cimbri ended up in Tolouse and the Pyrenees, as well norther Italy so they sort of spread out nicely where SRY2627 is found today. They also are not too far off from our brother Norwegian Viking clade of L165. So maybe SRY2627 has a nordic origins and then migrated southwards towards Iberia and Italy.

Arch

I brought up that theory for the north/south cluster in a different forum, the North Sea origin, then moving west into England and south into France and Spain.  I was quickly pounced upon.  So far the Geno 2.0 results has confirmed a dividing point between the Dutch/British nort/south folks and the French/Spanish north/south folks.  The Dutch/British are negative for the more recent clades, stopping at Z210, which is one more downstream of Z220.  The French/Spanish results are coming back positive for three to four more snps below Z210.  So either a group of Z210 split off heading north from Spain/France and went into Britain and the Netherlands, leaving the remaining Z210 in Spain/France, where they continued to accrue downstream snps that the northern group did not accrue, or Z210 originated in the North Sea area and then accrued these further downstream snps enroute to or after they settled in Spain/France.

Interesting. Maybe this might be something here.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on June 17, 2013, 10:28:32 PM
"With DNA I pondered the possibility of a more ancient Cimbri connection as they along with the Angles originate from the same area and Cimbri are usually called Celtic. The Cimbri ended up in Tolouse and the Pyrenees, as well norther Italy so they sort of spread out nicely where SRY2627 is found today. They also are not too far off from our brother Norwegian Viking clade of L165. So maybe SRY2627 has a nordic origins and then migrated southwards towards Iberia and Italy."

I can certainly see that as possibility too. L165 is probably our best evidence of this. I'll use a bit of logic that has been used against those of us who propose such scenarios.. We shouldn't put much weight in one far-flung sample (L165 in Spain) that could have arrived there in more recent times.

"I brought up that theory for the north/south cluster in a different forum, the North Sea origin, then moving west into England and south into France and Spain.  I was quickly pounced upon."

Tell me about it! I've been accused of not liking the results and not wanting to accept them for suggesting such theories. I've always found it funny that the people who are quickest to "correct" us, aren't even DF27. As I've said in the past, these types of theories throw a wrench in a lot of the pet theories of people who belong to our sibling haplogroups. So of course they jump all over anyone who doesn't accept their theories.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on June 17, 2013, 10:35:52 PM
I think SRY2627 people will fall under a similar category like the N/S variety. When SRY2627 related snp's begin to show up I think we will see a drastic difference in the Northern and Southern varieties. Too bad its not as far along in finding new snp's as other branches of DF27.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on June 18, 2013, 07:17:17 AM
I think SRY2627 people will fall under a similar category like the N/S variety. When SRY2627 related snp's begin to show up I think we will see a drastic difference in the Northern and Southern varieties. Too bad its not as far along in finding new snp's as other branches of DF27.

Hopefully between Richard Rocca's second go at the 1000 genomes project and the few DF27 full genome tests, we should be getting enough information back to help identify new snps.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 19, 2013, 02:21:57 AM
I think SRY2627 people will fall under a similar category like the N/S variety. When SRY2627 related snp's begin to show up I think we will see a drastic difference in the Northern and Southern varieties. Too bad its not as far along in finding new snp's as other branches of DF27.

Hopefully between Richard Rocca's second go at the 1000 genomes project and the few DF27 full genome tests, we should be getting enough information back to help identify new snps.

More SNP testing can only be a good thing. I hope we get something out of it.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on June 19, 2013, 08:01:33 AM
Are the SRY2627  FTDNA study group like say my Group A0 Family Groups?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on June 26, 2013, 03:11:53 PM
Are the SRY2627  FTDNA study group like say my Group A0 Family Groups?

What the SRY2627+ Project's group A0 members have in common is DYS490 = 10; group A0, like other groups in the SRY2627+ Project, is not really a family group. As members of that group test SNPs under SRY2627+ (CTS8289+, Z207+, and CTS4299+, for example), those members will probably be moved to other groups in the project if they test positive for any SNP known to be downstream from SRY2627+.

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on June 26, 2013, 07:34:18 PM
A0 is one of many groups in that study with DYS490=10


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 27, 2013, 05:54:39 AM
Are the SRY2627  FTDNA study group like say my Group A0 Family Groups?

What the SRY2627+ Project's group A0 members have in common is DYS490 = 10; group A0, like other groups in the SRY2627+ Project, is not really a family group. As members of that group test SNPs under SRY2627+ (CTS8289+, Z207+, and CTS4299+, for example), those members will probably be moved to other groups in the project if they test positive for any SNP known to be downstream from SRY2627+.

Stephen

What intrigues me how I am not in a group with Alberti when he's my closest GD at 67 markers tested. The other one is how many unusual markers I have with L165 types and I'm not 'clustered' near them.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on June 27, 2013, 06:56:56 AM
what group are you in Arch?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on June 27, 2013, 01:26:27 PM
Are the SRY2627  FTDNA study group like say my Group A0 Family Groups?

What the SRY2627+ Project's group A0 members have in common is DYS490 = 10; group A0, like other groups in the SRY2627+ Project, is not really a family group. As members of that group test SNPs under SRY2627+ (CTS8289+, Z207+, and CTS4299+, for example), those members will probably be moved to other groups in the project if they test positive for any SNP known to be downstream from SRY2627+.

Stephen

What intrigues me how I am not in a group with Alberti when he's my closest GD at 67 markers tested. The other one is how many unusual markers I have with L165 types and I'm not 'clustered' near them.

Arch

Arch -

Knowing that your terminal SNP is L659+, I am wondering whether you have any SNPs between SRY2627+ and L659+ and/or if you might have any SNPs downstream from L659+. If your Walk the Y results were used to make it possible for Geno 2.0 participants to test L659+, you might be able to take a free Geno 2.0 test. Let me see what I can find out.

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on June 27, 2013, 01:30:15 PM
what group are you in Arch?

He is in group A0.

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on June 27, 2013, 01:37:57 PM
This past weekend, I accepted an invitation to become a co-administrator of Family Tree DNA's Y Haplogroup R SRY2627+/L176.2+/Z198+ Project.

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on June 28, 2013, 01:02:59 AM
Congrats!

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on June 28, 2013, 09:17:21 AM
Congrats!

Arch

Arch -

Thanks! :)

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on June 30, 2013, 05:53:24 PM
Are the SRY2627  FTDNA study group like say my Group A0 Family Groups?

What the SRY2627+ Project's group A0 members have in common is DYS490 = 10; group A0, like other groups in the SRY2627+ Project, is not really a family group. As members of that group test SNPs under SRY2627+ (CTS8289+, Z207+, and CTS4299+, for example), those members will probably be moved to other groups in the project if they test positive for any SNP known to be downstream from SRY2627+.

Stephen

I received some news from FTDNA regarding the test for CTS 4299-- they "had to redesign the primers used for this specific SNP (basically construct a new way of testing for the SNP to make it more reliable). "  The process is on hold with no definite timetable.  However, those of you who may have tested for this marker may wish to have the test re-run once they redesign it...


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on July 03, 2013, 01:45:01 PM
Are the SRY2627  FTDNA study group like say my Group A0 Family Groups?

What the SRY2627+ Project's group A0 members have in common is DYS490 = 10; group A0, like other groups in the SRY2627+ Project, is not really a family group. As members of that group test SNPs under SRY2627+ (CTS8289+, Z207+, and CTS4299+, for example), those members will probably be moved to other groups in the project if they test positive for any SNP known to be downstream from SRY2627+.

Stephen

I received some news from FTDNA regarding the test for CTS 4299-- they "had to redesign the primers used for this specific SNP (basically construct a new way of testing for the SNP to make it more reliable). "  The process is on hold with no definite timetable.  However, those of you who may have tested for this marker may wish to have the test re-run once they redesign it...

Jason -

How will the news that you received from FTDNA affect FTDNA SRY2627+/L176.2+/Z198+ project members who found out by testing directly with FTDNA that they have CTS4299+?

Stephen

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on July 03, 2013, 06:45:22 PM
Are the SRY2627  FTDNA study group like say my Group A0 Family Groups?

What the SRY2627+ Project's group A0 members have in common is DYS490 = 10; group A0, like other groups in the SRY2627+ Project, is not really a family group. As members of that group test SNPs under SRY2627+ (CTS8289+, Z207+, and CTS4299+, for example), those members will probably be moved to other groups in the project if they test positive for any SNP known to be downstream from SRY2627+.

Stephen

I received some news from FTDNA regarding the test for CTS 4299-- they "had to redesign the primers used for this specific SNP (basically construct a new way of testing for the SNP to make it more reliable). "  The process is on hold with no definite timetable.  However, those of you who may have tested for this marker may wish to have the test re-run once they redesign it...

Jason -

How will the news that you received from FTDNA affect FTDNA SRY2627+/L176.2+/Z198+ project members who found out by testing directly with FTDNA that they have CTS4299+?

Stephen

Stephen

My result was run and came back CTS4299+ yesterday.  I would recommend that the project group administrators contact FTDNA and request that this test be re-run for the other members as well.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on July 04, 2013, 02:56:20 AM
what group are you in Arch?
A0 - I think

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on July 04, 2013, 02:59:02 AM
Are the SRY2627  FTDNA study group like say my Group A0 Family Groups?

What the SRY2627+ Project's group A0 members have in common is DYS490 = 10; group A0, like other groups in the SRY2627+ Project, is not really a family group. As members of that group test SNPs under SRY2627+ (CTS8289+, Z207+, and CTS4299+, for example), those members will probably be moved to other groups in the project if they test positive for any SNP known to be downstream from SRY2627+.

Stephen

What intrigues me how I am not in a group with Alberti when he's my closest GD at 67 markers tested. The other one is how many unusual markers I have with L165 types and I'm not 'clustered' near them.

Arch

Arch -

Knowing that your terminal SNP is L659+, I am wondering whether you have any SNPs between SRY2627+ and L659+ and/or if you might have any SNPs downstream from L659+. If your Walk the Y results were used to make it possible for Geno 2.0 participants to test L659+, you might be able to take a free Geno 2.0 test. Let me see what I can find out.

Stephen

Okay, sounds good - keep me posted.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on July 04, 2013, 12:52:41 PM
Are the SRY2627  FTDNA study group like say my Group A0 Family Groups?

What the SRY2627+ Project's group A0 members have in common is DYS490 = 10; group A0, like other groups in the SRY2627+ Project, is not really a family group. As members of that group test SNPs under SRY2627+ (CTS8289+, Z207+, and CTS4299+, for example), those members will probably be moved to other groups in the project if they test positive for any SNP known to be downstream from SRY2627+.

Stephen

I received some news from FTDNA regarding the test for CTS 4299-- they "had to redesign the primers used for this specific SNP (basically construct a new way of testing for the SNP to make it more reliable). "  The process is on hold with no definite timetable.  However, those of you who may have tested for this marker may wish to have the test re-run once they redesign it...

Jason -

How will the news that you received from FTDNA affect FTDNA SRY2627+/L176.2+/Z198+ project members who found out by testing directly with FTDNA that they have CTS4299+?

Stephen

Stephen

My result was run and came back CTS4299+ yesterday.  I would recommend that the project group administrators contact FTDNA and request that this test be re-run for the other members as well.

Jason -

Thank you for your reply and your suggestion. I will contact the project administrators and/or now that I am that project's co-administrator, I will contact FTDNA directly.

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on July 04, 2013, 01:01:23 PM
what group are you in Arch?
A0 - I think

Arch

Arch -

You are in group A0. :)

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on July 04, 2013, 01:05:00 PM
Are the SRY2627  FTDNA study group like say my Group A0 Family Groups?

What the SRY2627+ Project's group A0 members have in common is DYS490 = 10; group A0, like other groups in the SRY2627+ Project, is not really a family group. As members of that group test SNPs under SRY2627+ (CTS8289+, Z207+, and CTS4299+, for example), those members will probably be moved to other groups in the project if they test positive for any SNP known to be downstream from SRY2627+.

Stephen

What intrigues me how I am not in a group with Alberti when he's my closest GD at 67 markers tested. The other one is how many unusual markers I have with L165 types and I'm not 'clustered' near them.

Arch

Arch -

Knowing that your terminal SNP is L659+, I am wondering whether you have any SNPs between SRY2627+ and L659+ and/or if you might have any SNPs downstream from L659+. If your Walk the Y results were used to make it possible for Geno 2.0 participants to test L659+, you might be able to take a free Geno 2.0 test. Let me see what I can find out.

Stephen

Okay, sounds good - keep me posted.

Arch

Arch -

Here is the reply that I received in another forum: "FTDNA never disclosed the precise criteria they used to provide complimentary Geno 2.0 tests to a subset of the WTY customers. It was a one time thing, though, so there will not be any additional complimentary tests done."

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on July 05, 2013, 02:44:08 AM
Oh well! Thanks for asking and trying!

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on July 13, 2013, 03:57:57 AM
I wonder if it's possible to extract DNA or at least strontium isotopes from the teeth of the skulls found at the ancient Iberian hillfort of Ullastret.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on July 13, 2013, 09:11:35 AM
I wonder if it's possible to extract DNA or at least strontium isotopes from the teeth of the skulls found at the ancient Iberian hillfort of Ullastret.

Arch

Arch -

Which radioactive isotopes of strontium do you have in mind? Strontium 90's half life is about 28 years; strontium's other radioactive isotopes have shorter half lives than strontium 90.

Stephen



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on July 21, 2013, 02:11:51 AM
I posted this elsewhere, but I forgot we aren't of the N/S mega cluster side of Z196, so it pretty much fell on deaf ears..

There are around 25 to 30 L176.2 people in the French Heritage project. 25 of those are SRY2627. Certainly nothing to sneeze at. A couple of these are L176.2* and there is at least one L165 person. Their distribution didn't show a preference for any region in particular, but there was more of a pull to the west. Very impressive for a country that has barely been scratched. 

I've also been emailing my supposed SRY2627 cousin who has ancestry to Brittany. Our tmrca was around 1000 years ago.. This fellow is an expert, if you will, in Celtic languages and he believe that his surname may have been a Brythonic word meaning "Merchant", which eventually formed into the modern version of his name. If this is the case, then our SRY2627 line was in Britain well before the middle ages and was probably Gaulish spill over from the Iron age. Making the Dumnonia tribe of Devon and Cornwall, a possible ancient ethnic association.

That's what I'm whittling at the moment.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Webb on July 21, 2013, 06:46:50 AM
I posted this elsewhere, but I forgot we aren't of the N/S mega cluster side of Z196, so it pretty much fell on deaf ears..

There are around 25 to 30 L176.2 people in the French Heritage project. 25 of those are SRY2627. Certainly nothing to sneeze at. A couple of these are L176.2* and there is at least one L165 person. Their distribution didn't show a preference for any region in particular, but there was more of a pull to the west. Very impressive for a country that has barely been scratched. 

I've also been emailing my supposed SRY2627 cousin who has ancestry to Brittany. Our tmrca was around 1000 years ago.. This fellow is an expert, if you will, in Celtic languages and he believe that his surname may have been a Brythonic word meaning "Merchant", which eventually formed into the modern version of his name. If this is the case, then our SRY2627 line was in Britain well before the middle ages and was probably Gaulish spill over from the Iron age. Making the Dumnonia tribe of Devon and Cornwall, a possible ancient ethnic association.

That's what I'm whittling at the moment.

Sam, I don't know if you have been reading the updates on the anthrogenica site or not, but it looks like DF17 broke off much closer to Z209 as the one Geno 2.0 DF17 result and two French heritage results are positive for Z274.  All of the North/South cluster Geno 2.0 results are positive for Z274 as well.  Z274 sits somewhere between Z196 and Z209.  If you notice on the DF27 project, DF17 has no Spanish results.  It looks like the closer you get to Z196 the less Spanish our group looks.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on July 21, 2013, 03:49:11 PM
I posted this elsewhere, but I forgot we aren't of the N/S mega cluster side of Z196, so it pretty much fell on deaf ears..

There are around 25 to 30 L176.2 people in the French Heritage project. 25 of those are SRY2627. Certainly nothing to sneeze at. A couple of these are L176.2* and there is at least one L165 person. Their distribution didn't show a preference for any region in particular, but there was more of a pull to the west. Very impressive for a country that has barely been scratched.  

I've also been emailing my supposed SRY2627 cousin who has ancestry to Brittany. Our tmrca was around 1000 years ago.. This fellow is an expert, if you will, in Celtic languages and he believe that his surname may have been a Brythonic word meaning "Merchant", which eventually formed into the modern version of his name. If this is the case, then our SRY2627 line was in Britain well before the middle ages and was probably Gaulish spill over from the Iron age. Making the Dumnonia tribe of Devon and Cornwall, a possible ancient ethnic association.

That's what I'm whittling at the moment.

Maybe would could just cover all ground by saying our ancestors came from all over the Roman Empire, some arrived in Britain as early as 46 AD (since there's no real indication that J.C. settled anybody after his expeditions, but you never know). The spread of SRY2627 is so much that it's almost difficult to associate it with an Iron Age  origins or culture - it's just simply too old for that. However, what could be another possible explanation is our spread and our current frequency distribution is related to the Roman expansion and resettlement of various cultures/peoples from all over Europe and North Africa, perhaps some day we'll find SRY2627 in Anatolia and in the Middle East (the other regions where the Empire expanded). We have SRY2627 in Tunisia and as far north as Sweden. Either the Bronze Age trade-exchange networks  made such a wide distribution or some massive event such as the Roman expansion makes SRY2627 widely found. I'm sure events over time whether historic or not will spread any members of a subclade around but when there are groups of people all over in pockets of far flung areas it makes me wonder what happened. How did that particular group or families end up in Tunisia, Hungary, Romania, Sweden, Denmark, Ireland and with the still frequency distribution in Spain, specifically Catalonia.

The first thought that comes to my mind is either SRY2627 is connected to an Ibero-Urnfield Bronze Age spread that connected us with the Greek mercantile colonial spread from Phoca/Foca Turkey which could have easily connected to your lineage in Devon, your 'cousin's' lineage in Brittany and other's near Nantes along the Loire River and ancient Pictavia in Gallia. The connection to the Mediterranean could be made with Marseilles or old Massillia and Empuries and possibly Ullastret). If I'm not mistaken we have Greek wares in Hueneburg from Massillia and as well SRY2627 in SW Germany today. To make it more complicated we have SRY2627 in Tunisia, Sicily, and southern Italy. Areas that were contested not only between the Greeks and Carthaginians, and then the Carthaginians and Romans but also where the Celtiberians/Iberians such as the Illergetes and possibly the Indigetes can be found as once allies of Carthage.  

Then I have to ask what brought SRY2627 up to Sweden, Poland, Eastern parts of Germany, Belgium as well Britain and Ireland. The German Volkswandering does not really answer that question completely but I am reminded we did have Vandals in North Africa who originated near Poland and the Visigoths from near proximity to the Baltic Sea and found in Southern France - Toulouse being the first capital of a true Barbarian kingdom and pushed or was forced its way south by other Germanic people called the Franks. The Vandals set up their kingdom in what is modern day Galicia. Which I find odd that Britons would flee to a Germanic region from the Saxon invasion period and then to my point about Brittany where Britons did flee too but Brittany does not have a strong Germanic presence even though to the north of them they faced the Normans and to the south they had the Pictones of Poitou and Aquitani which in of itself was already under Visigothic rule.

It's really tough to paint a picture of SRY2627 being anywhere associated with these regions I just mentioned during the Iron Age because of the frequency distribution we see today and the variance being so quite widespread. So what exactly caused this distribution? I would say all the big historic events since the Late Bronze Age did, first with the Bronze-Age trade exchange networks which would be in great part of the 'Celtic' expansion if there really was such a thing, the Roman Empire, the great wondering of the Germanic peoples. Then the question has to be asked where from did this spread originate with SRY2627? I think once we can pinpoint a specific region with more accuracy as to origins then we'll have our answer, or at least be closer to a realistic one.

This is why I have held onto the NE Catalonia/Pyrenean region for such a long time. It's an area where many cultures collide. Urnfield, Ligurians, Aquitani, Iberians, Celtiberians, La Tene era Celts or Iberian Celts, Greeks, Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Romans, Visigoths, Moors, Franks, etc. I think we would be hard pressed to find any other region in Europe that has so much diversity in cultural contacts than in the region of NE Iberia from where the Pyrenees meets the coastline to Val d'Aran and south to the Ebro River. With all that cultural contact from Ullastret all the way to Tivissa (the ancient great Iberian hillforts) it makes me wonder is this exactly where SRY2627 spread from in its greatest numbers even if it did not possibly originate in Iberia itself.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on July 21, 2013, 06:20:02 PM
@Arch


I was only talking about my specific SRY2627 line :-)

I do like your ideas though!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on July 24, 2013, 07:18:45 PM
@Arch


I was only talking about my specific SRY2627 line :-)

I do like your ideas though!

Well, you mentioned ancestral connections to the Brythonic word for 'merchant.' I'm just adding some insight as Belerion as a part of ancient Dumnonia was renowned for merchants trading in tin and the story originates out of the Marseilles - a port of call very contemporaneous with Empuries or the 'Emporion' in Catalonia. Which also ties in to the port where the tin was arriving to the Loire R. near Nantes which has long been an important one between Britain, Ireland and land of various Celts such as the Pictones - therefore your 'Western Preference' of SRY2627 in France.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on July 25, 2013, 05:38:53 PM
I posted this elsewhere, but I forgot we aren't of the N/S mega cluster side of Z196, so it pretty much fell on deaf ears..

There are around 25 to 30 L176.2 people in the French Heritage project. 25 of those are SRY2627. Certainly nothing to sneeze at. A couple of these are L176.2* and there is at least one L165 person. Their distribution didn't show a preference for any region in particular, but there was more of a pull to the west. Very impressive for a country that has barely been scratched. 

I've also been emailing my supposed SRY2627 cousin who has ancestry to Brittany. Our tmrca was around 1000 years ago.. This fellow is an expert, if you will, in Celtic languages and he believe that his surname may have been a Brythonic word meaning "Merchant", which eventually formed into the modern version of his name. If this is the case, then our SRY2627 line was in Britain well before the middle ages and was probably Gaulish spill over from the Iron age. Making the Dumnonia tribe of Devon and Cornwall, a possible ancient ethnic association.

That's what I'm whittling at the moment.

Sam, I don't know if you have been reading the updates on the anthrogenica site or not, but it looks like DF17 broke off much closer to Z209 as the one Geno 2.0 DF17 result and two French heritage results are positive for Z274.  All of the North/South cluster Geno 2.0 results are positive for Z274 as well.  Z274 sits somewhere between Z196 and Z209.  If you notice on the DF27 project, DF17 has no Spanish results.  It looks like the closer you get to Z196 the less Spanish our group looks.

That is interesting. I wasn't aware of the closeness to Z209, but I was aware of its geographical distribution. It reminds me of L165, a strong preference to the north, but with "southern" cousins. Thanks for the update!


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on July 25, 2013, 05:45:10 PM
@Arch


I was only talking about my specific SRY2627 line :-)

I do like your ideas though!

Well, you mentioned ancestral connections to the Brythonic word for 'merchant.' I'm just adding some insight as Belerion as a part of ancient Dumnonia was renowned for merchants trading in tin and the story originates out of the Marseilles - a port of call very contemporaneous with Empuries or the 'Emporion' in Catalonia. Which also ties in to the port where the tin was arriving to the Loire R. near Nantes which has long been an important one between Britain, Ireland and land of various Celts such as the Pictones - therefore your 'Western Preference' of SRY2627 in France.

Arch

Thanks, Arch. I didn't mean to sound ungrateful. I just wanted to clear up any confusion I might have caused by the way I phrased "Our SRY2627 line".

Here's an excerpt from an email sent to me by my Breton "cousin"..

"I was looking at the map of the SRY2627 again and there is something that geographically links all of them . The places we found us represent the places these 6 CELTIC Tribes called: BOII, BELGAE, PARISII, BRIGANTES, VENETII and AIRENOSI
These four GAUL tribes have been historically in all the places SRY2627 are:

1_THE BOII (with their subclades BOIATES and perhaps BAIOCASSES) have been in Switzerland (after a battle), Sicilia, North Italie, East Europe, Germany and Austria... and more.
2_The BELGAE in BELGIUM, ENGLAND and IRELAND ("FIR BOLG" according to the book of the conquests)
3_The PARISII in FRANCE (in paris region) and ENGLAND (neighbour of the Brigantes)
4_The VENETII in NORTH WALES, SOUTH BRITTANY and perhaps NORTH ITALY (VENETI)
5_THE BRIGANTES in IRELAND and NORTH ENGLAND/SCOTLAND (PARISII's neighbors) and ALPS (BRIGANTII)
6_AIRENOSI (whose origin is not confirmed to have been Aquitanian or Iberian) in the VAL d'ARAN"



Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: scotsman on July 25, 2013, 07:45:39 PM

Sam

I am sorry but I do not understand your note about the L165 having a strong preference to the north, but with “southern“cousins.  With my terminal clade being SNP L165 I have noted a much stronger preference to the L165 south England cluster than our L165 north Hebredian cluster in our Group which makes me think the migrations was from south to north with the mystery being why are their no SNP traces between the South Central England cluster and the North Hebredian cluster.  (The small distribution of L165 in north Norse areas is probably displaced slaves taken North during the Viking plundering down in Scotland.)  Also with L165 and SRY2627 being so close together in the Phylogenetic Tree makes me wonder why we do not find a closer number of both L165 and SRY2627 SNPs clusters together in geographical groupings?  (With both the L165 north cluster and L165 south cluster both being so close to either the Callanish stone circle of the Isle of Lewis or the Stonehenge stone circle of south England it also makes you wonder if there is a relationship as builder of these engineered structures.)       


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on July 25, 2013, 09:55:08 PM

Sam

I am sorry but I do not understand your note about the L165 having a strong preference to the north, but with “southern“cousins.  With my terminal clade being SNP L165 I have noted a much stronger preference to the L165 south England cluster than our L165 north Hebredian cluster in our Group which makes me think the migrations was from south to north with the mystery being why are their no SNP traces between the South Central England cluster and the North Hebredian cluster.  (The small distribution of L165 in north Norse areas is probably displaced slaves taken North during the Viking plundering down in Scotland.)  Also with L165 and SRY2627 being so close together in the Phylogenetic Tree makes me wonder why we do not find a closer number of both L165 and SRY2627 SNPs clusters together in geographical groupings?  (With both the L165 north cluster and L165 south cluster both being so close to either the Callanish stone circle of the Isle of Lewis or the Stonehenge stone circle of south England it also makes you wonder if there is a relationship as builder of these engineered structures.)       


What I meant by my statement was that L165 has thus far had a better showing in Scotland. It is an intriguing sub clade and I, like you, would like to know why it hasn't been found in the mainland of Europe. A French sample and I believe a Spanish sample have turned up, but the rest are Scottish or English. I too am of the belief that L165 probably wasn't brought in by the Vikings. It probably made it's way into the Isles the same way that SRY2627 did. Perhaps L165 didn't occur until it reached the Isles? Maybe the earlier branching of SRY2627 DYS490=12 and L176.2* travelled there via trading between Atlantic Britain, France and Spain. As you may well know, SRY2627 seems to have its best showing in Southwest England, so maybe there is a connection between those who built Stonehenge and those who built the Callanish stone circle. How old is L165 estimated to be?


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: scotsman on July 25, 2013, 11:41:32 PM

Sam

The L165 is noted to be 2,750 to 3,500 years in age.  However, any other information in regard to L165 seems to be very sparse.

It is certainly interesting how the recent new ISOGG Phylogenetic Tree of July 23, 2013 has change the array of SNPs emanating from Z196 and isolating those emanating from L176.2 like C4188, L165, and (Z262)-SRY2627 over the last few months.

This Tree is quickly changing and will be interesting to follow.  Hopefully L165 will also finally have some further developments evolve from these new findings.

The new R1b-DF27 and Subclades Project Group that is being formed now will be a help with these developments.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on July 27, 2013, 07:49:04 AM
@Arch


I was only talking about my specific SRY2627 line :-)

I do like your ideas though!

Well, you mentioned ancestral connections to the Brythonic word for 'merchant.' I'm just adding some insight as Belerion as a part of ancient Dumnonia was renowned for merchants trading in tin and the story originates out of the Marseilles - a port of call very contemporaneous with Empuries or the 'Emporion' in Catalonia. Which also ties in to the port where the tin was arriving to the Loire R. near Nantes which has long been an important one between Britain, Ireland and land of various Celts such as the Pictones - therefore your 'Western Preference' of SRY2627 in France.

Arch

Thanks, Arch. I didn't mean to sound ungrateful. I just wanted to clear up any confusion I might have caused by the way I phrased "Our SRY2627 line".

Here's an excerpt from an email sent to me by my Breton "cousin"..

"I was looking at the map of the SRY2627 again and there is something that geographically links all of them . The places we found us represent the places these 6 CELTIC Tribes called: BOII, BELGAE, PARISII, BRIGANTES, VENETII and AIRENOSI
These four GAUL tribes have been historically in all the places SRY2627 are:

1_THE BOII (with their subclades BOIATES and perhaps BAIOCASSES) have been in Switzerland (after a battle), Sicilia, North Italie, East Europe, Germany and Austria... and more.
2_The BELGAE in BELGIUM, ENGLAND and IRELAND ("FIR BOLG" according to the book of the conquests)
3_The PARISII in FRANCE (in paris region) and ENGLAND (neighbour of the Brigantes)
4_The VENETII in NORTH WALES, SOUTH BRITTANY and perhaps NORTH ITALY (VENETI)
5_THE BRIGANTES in IRELAND and NORTH ENGLAND/SCOTLAND (PARISII's neighbors) and ALPS (BRIGANTII)
6_AIRENOSI (whose origin is not confirmed to have been Aquitanian or Iberian) in the VAL d'ARAN"



I wouldn't get too wrapped around the place-name etymology of words as it relates to identifying tribes. Keep in mind many of these people were named by the Greeks and Romans which often was a very distorted picture. The Pictones in Pictavia en Gallia could easily be confused with the Picts in Northern Scotland. Just as the Greek explorers confused the Silures with the Iberians because of the way the looked. I have a tendency to go that route thinking "Aha! This is a connection!" but reality checks hit me hard and back to square zero and nothing has been accomplished.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on August 16, 2013, 03:07:50 AM
It certainly is nice to see some Catalan SRY2627 peeps in YSearch. Anybody reach out to them and have them join the SRY2627 project? Edit: Never mind I just noticed them already in. Stephen is on top of things! Has Antoni Homs been contacted?

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on August 16, 2013, 07:58:12 AM
@Arch


I was only talking about my specific SRY2627 line :-)

I do like your ideas though!

Well, you mentioned ancestral connections to the Brythonic word for 'merchant.' I'm just adding some insight as Belerion as a part of ancient Dumnonia was renowned for merchants trading in tin and the story originates out of the Marseilles - a port of call very contemporaneous with Empuries or the 'Emporion' in Catalonia. Which also ties in to the port where the tin was arriving to the Loire R. near Nantes which has long been an important one between Britain, Ireland and land of various Celts such as the Pictones - therefore your 'Western Preference' of SRY2627 in France.

Arch

Thanks, Arch. I didn't mean to sound ungrateful. I just wanted to clear up any confusion I might have caused by the way I phrased "Our SRY2627 line".

Here's an excerpt from an email sent to me by my Breton "cousin"..

"I was looking at the map of the SRY2627 again and there is something that geographically links all of them . The places we found us represent the places these 6 CELTIC Tribes called: BOII, BELGAE, PARISII, BRIGANTES, VENETII and AIRENOSI
These four GAUL tribes have been historically in all the places SRY2627 are:

1_THE BOII (with their subclades BOIATES and perhaps BAIOCASSES) have been in Switzerland (after a battle), Sicilia, North Italie, East Europe, Germany and Austria... and more.
2_The BELGAE in BELGIUM, ENGLAND and IRELAND ("FIR BOLG" according to the book of the conquests)
3_The PARISII in FRANCE (in paris region) and ENGLAND (neighbour of the Brigantes)
4_The VENETII in NORTH WALES, SOUTH BRITTANY and perhaps NORTH ITALY (VENETI)
5_THE BRIGANTES in IRELAND and NORTH ENGLAND/SCOTLAND (PARISII's neighbors) and ALPS (BRIGANTII)
6_AIRENOSI (whose origin is not confirmed to have been Aquitanian or Iberian) in the VAL d'ARAN"



I wouldn't get too wrapped around the place-name etymology of words as it relates to identifying tribes. Keep in mind many of these people were named by the Greeks and Romans which often was a very distorted picture. The Pictones in Pictavia en Gallia could easily be confused with the Picts in Northern Scotland. Just as the Greek explorers confused the Silures with the Iberians because of the way the looked. I have a tendency to go that route thinking "Aha! This is a connection!" but reality checks hit me hard and back to square zero and nothing has been accomplished.

Arch

Yes, it is quite a humbling feeling to think you've had an "AHA!" moment and then it falls flat on its face.  

I've been reading with interest about the Aquitaine region of France. As you're well aware the area is just as thick with SRY2627 as parts of Northern Spain. Reaching the 10-15% frequency level in the western most Atlantic facing areas. Then of course you have Val D'aran with its whopping 48%. I think the percentage in Catalonia is a bit exaggerated.. Probably more in line with Bearn, Northern Aragon etc.. I'm seeing a clear distinction with the Aquitani people.. Really I'm not sure how the Iberian label ever came about... Well, I am.. lol of course I'm looking at this with the data we have today and I'm not trying piecing it together with scant amounts of evidence.

Seems to me that the likely explanation for SRY2627 appearing in Spain (Mostly Northern Spain) is that it is Aquitani and Gaulish spill over during and before the reign of the Roman empire. A great example being the Berones tribe which settled La Rioja (15%) in the 4th century bc. Now I'm not saying all of SRY2627 should be given the aquitanti label, but I certainly think it fits for the dispersal of the sub clade in the regions I'm mentioning.

I've also placed push pins in an unlabeled map of France, using the French SRY2627 I've been able to find. A clear preference for the provinces of Poitou and Saintonge is revealed.. Which further strengthens the bond to the Aquitani in my opinion. Seems SRY2627 is like a coin with an Aquitani element that spread more to the south and a Celtic element which spread more to the north. The trend of SRY2627 clustering closely continues on up into Brittany. Though not in the area traditionally held by the Bretons. That area is awash with L21.

Of course I'm not claiming any origins here. I'm just presenting what I believe is the best ethnic description for our sub clade, which covers not only the southern component but also the northern one.  


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Stephen Parrish on August 16, 2013, 08:59:05 AM
It certainly is nice to see some Catalan SRY2627 peeps in YSearch. Anybody reach out to them and have them join the SRY2627 project? Edit: Never mind I just noticed them already in. Stephen is on top of things! Has Antoni Homs been contacted?

Arch

Arch -

I do not know whether he has been contacted.

Speaking of SRY2627+'s appearance in Catalonia, please note CTS4299+'s presence there in the SRY2627+ project's section A20 on the project's Y-STR page.

Stephen


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on August 16, 2013, 07:24:43 PM
@Arch

Thanks Sam well said  Saintonge stock here!!!
I was only talking about my specific SRY2627 line :-)

I do like your ideas though!

Well, you mentioned ancestral connections to the Brythonic word for 'merchant.' I'm just adding some insight as Belerion as a part of ancient Dumnonia was renowned for merchants trading in tin and the story originates out of the Marseilles - a port of call very contemporaneous with Empuries or the 'Emporion' in Catalonia. Which also ties in to the port where the tin was arriving to the Loire R. near Nantes which has long been an important one between Britain, Ireland and land of various Celts such as the Pictones - therefore your 'Western Preference' of SRY2627 in France.

Arch

Thanks, Arch. I didn't mean to sound ungrateful. I just wanted to clear up any confusion I might have caused by the way I phrased "Our SRY2627 line".

Here's an excerpt from an email sent to me by my Breton "cousin"..

"I was looking at the map of the SRY2627 again and there is something that geographically links all of them . The places we found us represent the places these 6 CELTIC Tribes called: BOII, BELGAE, PARISII, BRIGANTES, VENETII and AIRENOSI
These four GAUL tribes have been historically in all the places SRY2627 are:

1_THE BOII (with their subclades BOIATES and perhaps BAIOCASSES) have been in Switzerland (after a battle), Sicilia, North Italie, East Europe, Germany and Austria... and more.
2_The BELGAE in BELGIUM, ENGLAND and IRELAND ("FIR BOLG" according to the book of the conquests)
3_The PARISII in FRANCE (in paris region) and ENGLAND (neighbour of the Brigantes)
4_The VENETII in NORTH WALES, SOUTH BRITTANY and perhaps NORTH ITALY (VENETI)
5_THE BRIGANTES in IRELAND and NORTH ENGLAND/SCOTLAND (PARISII's neighbors) and ALPS (BRIGANTII)
6_AIRENOSI (whose origin is not confirmed to have been Aquitanian or Iberian) in the VAL d'ARAN"



I wouldn't get too wrapped around the place-name etymology of words as it relates to identifying tribes. Keep in mind many of these people were named by the Greeks and Romans which often was a very distorted picture. The Pictones in Pictavia en Gallia could easily be confused with the Picts in Northern Scotland. Just as the Greek explorers confused the Silures with the Iberians because of the way the looked. I have a tendency to go that route thinking "Aha! This is a connection!" but reality checks hit me hard and back to square zero and nothing has been accomplished.

Arch

Yes, it is quite a humbling feeling to think you've had an "AHA!" moment and then it falls flat on its face.  

I've been reading with interest about the Aquitaine region of France. As you're well aware the area is just as thick with SRY2627 as parts of Northern Spain. Reaching the 10-15% frequency level in the western most Atlantic facing areas. Then of course you have Val D'aran with its whopping 48%. I think the percentage in Catalonia is a bit exaggerated.. Probably more in line with Bearn, Northern Aragon etc.. I'm seeing a clear distinction with the Aquitani people.. Really I'm not sure how the Iberian label ever came about... Well, I am.. lol of course I'm looking at this with the data we have today and I'm not trying piecing it together with scant amounts of evidence.

Seems to me that the likely explanation for SRY2627 appearing in Spain (Mostly Northern Spain) is that it is Aquitani and Gaulish spill over during and before the reign of the Roman empire. A great example being the Berones tribe which settled La Rioja (15%) in the 4th century bc. Now I'm not saying all of SRY2627 should be given the aquitanti label, but I certainly think it fits for the dispersal of the sub clade in the regions I'm mentioning.

I've also placed push pins in an unlabeled map of France, using the French SRY2627 I've been able to find. A clear preference for the provinces of Poitou and Saintonge is revealed.. Which further strengthens the bond to the Aquitani in my opinion. Seems SRY2627 is like a coin with an Aquitani element that spread more to the south and a Celtic element which spread more to the north. The trend of SRY2627 clustering closely continues on up into Brittany. Though not in the area traditionally held by the Bretons. That area is awash with L21.

Of course I'm not claiming any origins here. I'm just presenting what I believe is the best ethnic description for our sub clade, which covers not only the southern component but also the northern one.  


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Jason Bourgeois on August 16, 2013, 08:55:26 PM

Yes, it is quite a humbling feeling to think you've had an "AHA!" moment and then it falls flat on its face.  

I've been reading with interest about the Aquitaine region of France. As you're well aware the area is just as thick with SRY2627 as parts of Northern Spain. Reaching the 10-15% frequency level in the western most Atlantic facing areas. Then of course you have Val D'aran with its whopping 48%. I think the percentage in Catalonia is a bit exaggerated.. Probably more in line with Bearn, Northern Aragon etc.. I'm seeing a clear distinction with the Aquitani people.. Really I'm not sure how the Iberian label ever came about... Well, I am.. lol of course I'm looking at this with the data we have today and I'm not trying piecing it together with scant amounts of evidence.

Seems to me that the likely explanation for SRY2627 appearing in Spain (Mostly Northern Spain) is that it is Aquitani and Gaulish spill over during and before the reign of the Roman empire. A great example being the Berones tribe which settled La Rioja (15%) in the 4th century bc. Now I'm not saying all of SRY2627 should be given the aquitanti label, but I certainly think it fits for the dispersal of the sub clade in the regions I'm mentioning.

I've also placed push pins in an unlabeled map of France, using the French SRY2627 I've been able to find. A clear preference for the provinces of Poitou and Saintonge is revealed.. Which further strengthens the bond to the Aquitani in my opinion. Seems SRY2627 is like a coin with an Aquitani element that spread more to the south and a Celtic element which spread more to the north. The trend of SRY2627 clustering closely continues on up into Brittany. Though not in the area traditionally held by the Bretons. That area is awash with L21.

Of course I'm not claiming any origins here. I'm just presenting what I believe is the best ethnic description for our sub clade, which covers not only the southern component but also the northern one.  

The 2012 article by Martinez-Cruz, et al., which examined the Y-DNA of many Pyrenees regions, associates SRY2627 with the Aquitani tribes.


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Arch Y. on August 17, 2013, 01:19:29 AM
I have to agree with you there is a strong presence of SRY2627 in southern France, but we also have to keep in mind with the academic studies that pulled in several donors going on over 10 years it seems. The academic data is good in terms of finding the 'hot spots' of SRY2627; the only thing they lack is more STRs which back then was not seen as much of a necessity in identifying where the subclade tends to cluster. In my eyes, Val d'Aran is more a part of Occitania than it is Catalonia, albeit quite closely related. I don't think the 48% is that exaggerated given where the donor samples were taken from - the older villages which are usually off-the-beaten path on a steep hillside. You just know the ancestry runs deep there. The only place I would say it would not run deep in general is in Baquiera which caters to tourism and skiers. When places like Vilamos, Arres de Sus, and Bausen are tested, you just know it's most likely not going to be recent arrivals - these families are well-rooted and established. So the number of donors may not seem relevant but keep in mind the amount of males in Val d'Aran around the time of testing was around 5,000 at best and out of that 5,000 some 1,500 were from places like Portugal, Galicia, and Andalusia and most of those males migrated with the boom in tourism over the last 20 years. Mining also lured in a few from other far-flung places, but like all mining camps, Val d'Aran had its fair share of Ghost Towns and some are still there today. But what remainder of emigrant males with descended families remain from that era is probably remote. What I do know and see is the steep population increases and drops which is indicative of a mining boom and bust period, but I would not be too surprised if lumbering activity as well other events played a role as well. Val d'Aran and its immediate surrounding valleys seems to be a good pivot point between the Amorican and Iberian SRY2627. Like I was telling somebody the other day, even the geographical positioning of Val d'Aran places it technically in Aquitani lands and not really on the Iberian Peninsula -- it's just really close to it. Politically and culturally, there's been a much stronger connection between the two 'zones' since the Middle Ages. But prior to the Frankish conquest of Visigothic lands things get a bit tougher to decipher as the region was vaguely under Pompey's Lugdunum Convenaii. Even more vague are the Aeronosii which would not be unusual from Val d'Aran and even in Andorra to the east as you can find similar placenames like Arans, etc.

Iberians were not necessarily 'locked' into Iberia proper. They can be found along the Mediterranean coastline at least as far as Narbonne and perhaps Marseilles; I would not be surprised one bit if they were far west as Bordeaux. I believe Pompey also had a contingent of Celtiberian allied soldiers near Convenae Lugdunum at Calahorra, very interesting placenames found south of the Pyrenees near Zaragossa and near Toulouse north of the Pyrenees. Just like the passes to the east that are a bit easier to navigate through, Val d'Aran was a crossroads of all sorts of people and cultures once it was discovered how to access it without too much effort and the crossover to each side. I find it remarkable that without the Vielha Tunnel the place is quite difficult to access - one access point to the south (Col de Bonaigua), one to the west (Luchon), both Bonaigua and Col de Porthilon is stretching it when I say ease of access, and one to the north along the Garonne (Pont de Rey). All other access points on foot, beast, or vehicle take a bit of effort. Val d'Aran would be a good study model for how geophysical barriers can impact diversity within a clade.

Arch


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: Brousse on August 31, 2013, 12:39:43 PM
Ok the origins could be from anywhere but France I toss in the hat people with much more brains than myself have thought France to be the birthplace as well. I don't think it matters at this point as we may never be able to prove anything 100% all I know is where my people came from and that I have a old French Surname did they come from somewhere else in between  2500 years ago and the 1400s  who knows Not trying to be a smart ass it just seems people like myself are stuck on one spot so no matter what comes to light it is over looked I'm at fault myself


Title: Re: SRY2627
Post by: samIsaack on September 02, 2013, 10:58:17 PM
Ok the origins could be from anywhere but France I toss in t