World Families Forums

General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse. => Autosomal Block DNA Testing - "Family Finder" and "Relative Finder" => Topic started by: rms2 on February 11, 2012, 01:09:36 PM



Title: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on February 11, 2012, 01:09:36 PM
I'm hoping there are some people here at WFN willing to talk Family Finder results. It seems this subforum gets little attention.

I just got my results this morning.

According to Population Finder, I am 95.37% Western European and 4.63% Middle Eastern. Here's how that breaks down:

Europe (Western European)    Orcadian    95.37%    ±1.76%
Middle East    Palestinian, Adygei, Bedouin, Bedouin South, Druze, Iranian, Jewish, Mozabite    4.63%    ±1.76


I understand those ethnic groups listed refer to sample populations and autosomal dna and not necessarily to groups to which my own ancestors belonged. Still, the Middle Eastern component is very interesting, to say the least.

I am new to FF test results, so lend me your experience and wisdom. Let's discuss your results and mine.

I just sent my raw data off to be analyzed by Dr. McDonald. I hope he will do it.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Mike23 on February 11, 2012, 07:47:02 PM
Europe (Western European)    Orcadian    94.35%    ±2.06%
Middle East  Palestinian, Adygei, Bedouin South, Druze, Iranian, Jewish    5.65%  ±2.06%

Recently got my results and will be interested in what McDonald tells you. Is it your impression that it is usual for Western Europeans to have Middle Eastern results?

Regards,

Mike Hannan


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on February 11, 2012, 08:37:53 PM
Europe (Western European)    Orcadian    94.35%    ±2.06%
Middle East  Palestinian, Adygei, Bedouin South, Druze, Iranian, Jewish    5.65%  ±2.06%

Recently got my results and will be interested in what McDonald tells you. Is it your impression that it is usual for Western Europeans to have Middle Eastern results?

Regards,

Mike Hannan

I have seen a lot of Population Finder results, and I can tell you, yours and mine are pretty typical for men of British Isles ancestry. They all seem to be that way: 90-something percent Orcadian, with the remainder Middle Eastern.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Mike23 on February 11, 2012, 08:52:59 PM
If I might ask, how much is the McDonald analysis?


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on February 11, 2012, 09:29:54 PM
If I might ask, how much is the McDonald analysis?


As far as I know, it's free. If he writes back and asks for a fee, I'll let you know.

Honestly, he probably should charge something. I would.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Mike23 on February 11, 2012, 09:34:57 PM
I agree. What a decent person!


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on February 12, 2012, 09:28:43 AM
I agree. What a decent person!

True, but he has to be overwhelmed with requests like mine by now, and altruism only goes so far.

Pretty soon he'll have to quit or start charging for his services.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on February 12, 2012, 06:57:53 PM
I got an email from Dr. McDonald today (I did not expect an answer so soon!). Here is what he wrote:

Quote
Most likely fit is 100% English (Western Europe)

which is 100% total Europe


The location error = 0.005191 with 1 group

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,

most likely at the top

English= 1.000


I sent him the raw data without mentioning FTDNA's Population Finder stuff. Apparently Dr. McDonald did not see any Middle Eastern stuff.

I hate to trouble him further, but I wrote a follow-up email asking him how FTDNA got that 4.63% Middle Eastern result.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on February 12, 2012, 07:19:13 PM
Wow! I already got a reply!

Here is what I wrote and how Dr. McDonald responded:

Quote

[My email]

Thank you very much, Dr, McDonald. I really appreciate your taking the time to help me.

Here is what FTDNA says on my Population Finder page:

Europe (Western European) Orcadian  95.37% ±1.76%
Middle East  Palestinian, Adygei, Bedouin, Bedouin South, Druze, Iranian, Jewish, Mozabite  4.63% ±1.76%

Sorry to trouble you further, but can you tell why they gave me that 4.63% Middle Eastern result? As far as I know, my family is European in origin, and, but for two exceptions (one French, one Dutch), all of the surnames in my pedigree are from the British Isles.

Thanks again!


[Dr. McDonald's response]

yes ...  it simply pushes your average position on the map just a bit east ...

i.e. France and Holland are east of England, and for some reason a little

bit pf something farther east substitutes for a large amount less far east.

This happens a lot.

 

Doug McDonald



Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on February 12, 2012, 07:52:40 PM
So, to sum things up, I am pretty confused now.

Dr. McDonald says the best fit for my autosomal results is 100% English, but I still don't understand how FTDNA got that 4.63% Middle Eastern thing.

Maybe as I learn more, I'll figure things out. And maybe in time FTDNA will refine Population Finder a bit more.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: F James on February 13, 2012, 06:05:37 AM
Stevo have you uploaded your FF raw data results to the GEDMATCH Utility.
http://www.gedmatch.com/

They have a few different ways of comparing FF results,  Compare Autosomal results with FTDNA and 23 and me results,  Triangulation of matching surnames,  and some other things to do with your data eg, Admixture Chromosome painting, are your parents related etc..

The instructions are on the webpage and  FTDNA forums will have several older posts on how to use the utility


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Mike23 on February 13, 2012, 01:34:07 PM
How do I reach Dr McDonald?

Mike


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on February 14, 2012, 09:10:11 PM
How do I reach Dr McDonald?

Mike

Download your raw data from Family Finder and send it to:   

"Dr. McDonald" <jdmcdona@illinois.edu>

He got back to me pretty quickly.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on February 14, 2012, 09:29:24 PM
Stevo have you uploaded your FF raw data results to the GEDMATCH Utility.
http://www.gedmatch.com/

They have a few different ways of comparing FF results,  Compare Autosomal results with FTDNA and 23 and me results,  Triangulation of matching surnames,  and some other things to do with your data eg, Admixture Chromosome painting, are your parents related etc..

The instructions are on the webpage and  FTDNA forums will have several older posts on how to use the utility

I haven't done that yet because I did not know about it. Thanks for the information!

I will probably do it tomorrow. I just got home from taking my wife out for St. Valentine's Day. I had a bit of red wine and am too tired to do much on the computer this evening. I get up at about 0300 to start my long day, so I am headed to bed in a couple of minutes.

But I really appreciate your letting me know about GEDMATCH. I will definitely check it out. I am really interested in the Family Finder thing now.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Mike23 on February 15, 2012, 09:41:41 AM
Thanks for the Dr.McDonald information.

Best regards,

Mike Hannan


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on February 15, 2012, 08:36:09 PM
Thanks for the Dr.McDonald information.

Best regards,

Mike Hannan

Let us know what he tells you, please.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Mike23 on February 15, 2012, 10:06:16 PM
of course I'll post when I get the results.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Mike23 on February 16, 2012, 11:33:30 AM
Here are my results from Dr. McDonald. Crikees I thought I was Irish!

Most likely fit is 100% English (Western Europe)
which is 100% total Europe
The location error = 0.008126 with 1 group

The following are possible populations,
most likely at the top:

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
most likely at the top
 English= 1.000

and that's about it ... very very British.



Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on February 16, 2012, 05:59:53 PM
Here are my results from Dr. McDonald. Crikees I thought I was Irish!

Most likely fit is 100% English (Western Europe)
which is 100% total Europe
The location error = 0.008126 with 1 group

The following are possible populations,
most likely at the top:

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
most likely at the top
 English= 1.000

and that's about it ... very very British.[/size]


Well, I wouldn't be too quick to give up on your Irish bona fides.

I'm sure he probably sent you some charts like he sent me, one of which is a PCA "scatter plot". Notice how the English dots are cozied up between the French and the Irish? There isn't much separating them.

I think it depends on what kind of sample populations they have, etc. Maybe as more populations are added, greater refinement will come. Notice, too, that they had no Welsh or Scots or Manx samples to compare us with.

Anyway, your result is pretty much like mine.

I'm starting to get emails from distant cousins now.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on February 16, 2012, 06:28:36 PM
Speaking of distant Family Finder cousins, I have 21 pages of matches! Yikes!

Some of them are pretty remote, but just the same, that's a lot.

I think that comes from the fact that various branches of my family have been in this country over 300 years.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on February 16, 2012, 06:58:47 PM
My best FF match and I have not been able to find our connection yet, but I just noticed that she and a couple of my other matches share the surname Chastain in their gedcoms. I don't have that surname in my gedcom, but that doesn't mean it doesn't belong there, since I have plenty of gaps in my family tree that are currently filled by unknowns.

What is interesting about that surname, aside from the fact that it keeps popping up among my autosomal matches, is that it is French and, in America, Huguenot. The immigrant progenitor was Pierre Chastain (http://www.pierrechastain.com/content/pierre.html), who settled at Manakintown and eventually wound up in Goochland County, Virginia (just west of Richmond). I already have one known French Huguenot line in my pedigree, Micou, and it likewise came to Virginia and Manakintown. I certainly don't have all its connections filled in, so it could be that the Chastains and Micous got together at some point and sent me some autosomal dna. Pierre Chastain was a contemporary of my French Huguenot 7th great grandfather, Paul Micou.

Anyway, this is fascinating.

Of course, I could be barking up the wrong tree in this case. The connection could come via some other line and be more recent.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on February 18, 2012, 02:04:02 PM
I keep hearing from distant cousins via Family Finder. Kind of cool. Seems a worthwhile test to me. The unknowns in my tree make connecting the dots kind of difficult, though. Like my dad's mother's line. Don't know much about that one, unfortunately. That's a gap big enough to truck loads of distant cousins through.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on February 18, 2012, 02:33:50 PM
Stevo have you uploaded your FF raw data results to the GEDMATCH Utility.
http://www.gedmatch.com/

They have a few different ways of comparing FF results,  Compare Autosomal results with FTDNA and 23 and me results,  Triangulation of matching surnames,  and some other things to do with your data eg, Admixture Chromosome painting, are your parents related etc..

The instructions are on the webpage and  FTDNA forums will have several older posts on how to use the utility

I just finished uploading my autosomal, x chromosome, and gedcom stuff to Gedmatch. Now I have to wait 24 hours to be able to do the autosomal comparisons.

Thanks for bringing Gedmatch to my attention. Some of the stuff there is intriguing.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on February 18, 2012, 06:12:39 PM
Speaking of distant Family Finder cousins, I have 21 pages of matches! Yikes!

Some of them are pretty remote, but just the same, that's a lot.

I think that comes from the fact that various branches of my family have been in this country over 300 years.

Hey! I just noticed that I now have 22 pages of matches instead of 21, an increase of a page in just the last day or so!

Cool!


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on February 18, 2012, 06:16:43 PM
Speaking of distant Family Finder cousins, I have 21 pages of matches! Yikes!

Some of them are pretty remote, but just the same, that's a lot.

I think that comes from the fact that various branches of my family have been in this country over 300 years.

Hey! I just noticed that I now have 22 pages of matches instead of 21, an increase of a page in just the last day or so!

Cool!

Okay, I counted them. There are ten per page, but only two thus far on page 22, so I have 212 FF matches thus far.

The last time I checked, a couple of days ago, page 21 wasn't even full. Now it's full and there are two on page 22.

That's a lot of people to check out.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on March 02, 2012, 10:17:56 AM
I picked up three new matches yesterday, and one of them is actually from the UK. He is predicted to be in the range of 5th cousin to remote cousin, so it's not a real close relationship, but, then again, my ancestors left Britain and Ireland a long time ago, so I wouldn't expect a real close degree of relatedness to a current British citizen.

We share a total of 27.87 cM in common, with the longest block being 8 cM.

I don't see any surnames on his list that I share with him, but it's still kind of interesting.

There may be other British citizens lurking among my matches; I haven't checked each one minutely - just the very closest ones.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Jim Rohrer on March 21, 2012, 05:39:36 PM
Hello- my order with FTDNA was for Y testing.  I also ordered autosomal from DNATribes.  Now FTDNA is offering autosomal, so I ordered individual tests for a bunch of loci to cross check the results from DNATribes.

My impression is that autosomal testing is better for recent ancestry and less so for the way-back stuff.  Has anyone else heard that?


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on March 21, 2012, 06:48:04 PM
Hello- my order with FTDNA was for Y testing.  I also ordered autosomal from DNATribes.  Now FTDNA is offering autosomal, so I ordered individual tests for a bunch of loci to cross check the results from DNATribes.

My impression is that autosomal testing is better for recent ancestry and less so for the way-back stuff.  Has anyone else heard that?

I think that is correct. Deep Clade y-dna testing gets you "deep ancestry". Family Finder gets you genealogical matches, though some of them can go pretty far back.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Jim Rohrer on March 21, 2012, 09:11:12 PM
The more recent ancestry is more interesting to me.  1000 years back is difficult to relate to.  

On my father's side, immigration was pre Revolution.  Midwestern German farmers who occasionally married Irish girls. Turns out farmers can be wild.  The Y dna confirm the Germanic origins.  But the real story is between 1850 and 1940.

The autosomal DNA matched on eastern Europe, not Germany.  On my mother's side, immigration was shortly after 1850.  We assumed they were Germanic but maybe they were German Hungarians or German Slovaks or German Romanians.  

The old European subgroups were Germanic, Slavic etc.  Do these mean anything anymore? Genetically, what does it mean to be Slavic?  Can our tests tell us if we are Slavic, Germanic or whatever?


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on March 22, 2012, 07:51:37 PM
The more recent ancestry is more interesting to me.  1000 years back is difficult to relate to.  

On my father's side, immigration was pre Revolution.  Midwestern German farmers who occasionally married Irish girls. Turns out farmers can be wild.  The Y dna confirm the Germanic origins.  But the real story is between 1850 and 1940.

The autosomal DNA matched on eastern Europe, not Germany.  On my mother's side, immigration was shortly after 1850.  We assumed they were Germanic but maybe they were German Hungarians or German Slovaks or German Romanians.  

The old European subgroups were Germanic, Slavic etc.  Do these mean anything anymore? Genetically, what does it mean to be Slavic?  Can our tests tell us if we are Slavic, Germanic or whatever?

Autosomal results can be compared with current ethnic sample populations. Y-dna predates such groupings, however. You can tell generally, though, if the y-dna subclade to which you belong matches the distribution of an ancient people well or not.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on April 14, 2012, 06:46:35 PM
I picked up three new matches yesterday, and one of them is actually from the UK. He is predicted to be in the range of 5th cousin to remote cousin, so it's not a real close relationship, but, then again, my ancestors left Britain and Ireland a long time ago, so I wouldn't expect a real close degree of relatedness to a current British citizen.

We share a total of 27.87 cM in common, with the longest block being 8 cM.

I don't see any surnames on his list that I share with him, but it's still kind of interesting.

There may be other British citizens lurking among my matches; I haven't checked each one minutely - just the very closest ones.

Hmmm . . .

I got another British citizen as a match on Family Finder, this one predicted to be in the range of 5th cousin to remote cousin. We have 27.22 cM in common, with the longest block being 8.07 cM.

What is interesting about this one is he is R-L21, like me, and reports many of his surname lines as coming from Shropshire in England and Montgomeryshire in Wales.

Shropshire is in the West Midlands and right on the Welsh border. I have a 65/67 y-dna match whose family is from Shropshire, and most of my close matches are either from the West Midlands or Wales or have surnames that are common in those places.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Mike Forsythe on April 15, 2012, 09:27:48 AM
This Family Finder is very cool...I made contact with a distant cousin and the story goes..Her ancestry is through a 17 year old convict (housebreaking) in 1835 who was  sent to New Southwest  Wales in1835. He married the daughter of a Irish convict, and they had ten children. One of the children was a direct ancestry to to her... at the age of 55 she found out she was adopted,  then decided to use F.F to research her ancestry... Without the aid of F.F. I doubt she could have made this link. And I am most certain, I would have never got to here her unique story.

I have read comments, where some folks are discouraged with Family Finder, and think its a waste of money. My experience is, F.F provides your genetic matches and the distance to that match...After that it is your job to make the link, which can consume a lot of time and effort, but will eventually pay off... The key is to keep a open mind, as anything is possible..


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Jim Rohrer on April 15, 2012, 11:06:33 AM
My impression is that family finder's strength is in the detection of actual cousins and not in more general statements about ethnicity.  Pasted below is a critical assessment by an independent expert.

"Disadvantages: This test is based on the assumption that people are static beings, who remain fixed in one geographic position. It is based on the arbitrary declaration of customers who claim to have ancestry from this that and the other country. This is a significant weakness because studies base their allocations on what customers declare as their country of origin and most customers buy the test to find out what their origins are. A real case for post facto fallacy exists here as individuals deemed as outliers become relegated and others included to construct ancestral boundaries along popular beliefs currently in fashion. The costs involved make it very difficult to access for most working-class folk.

Claim: These tests claim to identify ancestral contributions to one's genome.

Counterclaim: These tests only test SNPs and do not look at the entire genome or the raw data embedded within Autosomal STRs. Ancestry is estimated with few controls. What specific data points mean is a controversial subject. Autosomal SNPs can not be considered ancestry-informative markers at the present time (yet)."

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-26795.html?s=ee9d84a9758b1ec1d84ce233258174c3


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Mike Forsythe on April 15, 2012, 02:46:32 PM
This so called "independent expert" has based his critical assessment on his opinion. It may be possible he has a problem with this Industry in general... He also notes.


Advantage: Testing your Autosomal DNA now will help develop further the tech and pay for future R & D.
Do not be fooled, it's a marketing ploy.

One would assume that ("pay for future R & D") this service should be free. My expectations of Family Finder was not to declare my country of origin, but as you stated, to obtain the detection of actual cousins...In that regard F.F. has served me very well, and worth every penny...


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on April 17, 2012, 07:26:06 AM
My impression is that family finder's strength is in the detection of actual cousins and not in more general statements about ethnicity.  Pasted below is a critical assessment by an independent expert.

"Disadvantages: This test is based on the assumption that people are static beings, who remain fixed in one geographic position. It is based on the arbitrary declaration of customers who claim to have ancestry from this that and the other country. This is a significant weakness because studies base their allocations on what customers declare as their country of origin and most customers buy the test to find out what their origins are. A real case for post facto fallacy exists here as individuals deemed as outliers become relegated and others included to construct ancestral boundaries along popular beliefs currently in fashion. The costs involved make it very difficult to access for most working-class folk.

Claim: These tests claim to identify ancestral contributions to one's genome.

Counterclaim: These tests only test SNPs and do not look at the entire genome or the raw data embedded within Autosomal STRs. Ancestry is estimated with few controls. What specific data points mean is a controversial subject. Autosomal SNPs can not be considered ancestry-informative markers at the present time (yet)."

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-26795.html?s=ee9d84a9758b1ec1d84ce233258174c3

I don't think those criticisms are valid. As I understand it, control populations, that is, sample populations used for ethnic comparisons and identification, are screened by geneticists to exclude recent arrivals and foreign input. Naturally, such screening can only extend a few generations. That is a natural limitation with which we must live until autosomal dna can be had in sufficient quantity from ancient remains.

"Working class folk" in the developed world can scrape together two hundred bucks for FTDNA's Family Finder test without too much difficulty. DNA testing is not just for the rich.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Mike Forsythe on April 17, 2012, 09:19:43 AM
My situation was not where I came from, but how do I get back. Family Finder is paving the road through genetic matches to do this. However, in order for this to happen, it helps if  your match has a solid paper trail, which I have been lucky in this regard...yesterday a distant cousin contacted me and I was amazed at our connection going back to 1625. This was her response...

"The Forsyth family is found on my grandmothers tree. My 9th great grandfather is James william Forsyth. I descend from his daughter."

This with other F.F. matches, I was able to make the link from the U.S. Ireland, then to Scotland... I have worked on my genealogy for many years,and have hit many brick walls...Family Finder complemented with Y DNA testing, has aloud me to do this in a short period of time...


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on April 18, 2012, 07:54:28 AM
My situation was not where I came from, but how do I get back. Family Finder is paving the road through genetic matches to do this. However, in order for this to happen, it helps if  your match has a solid paper trail, which I have been lucky in this regard...yesterday a distant cousin contacted me and I was amazed at our connection going back to 1625. This was her response...

"The Forsyth family is found on my grandmothers tree. My 9th great grandfather is James william Forsyth. I descend from his daughter."

This with other F.F. matches, I was able to make the link from the U.S. Ireland, then to Scotland... I have worked on my genealogy for many years,and have hit many brick walls...Family Finder complemented with Y DNA testing, has aloud me to do this in a short period of time...

That is awesome. Congratulations!

I have made some good connections and extended my pedigree on a couple of lines because of Family Finder, but I haven't experienced anything like that on my own surname line yet, which is what I really want.

I keep hoping that golden match will pop up soon.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: seferhabahir on May 15, 2012, 03:12:06 AM
Speaking of distant Family Finder cousins, I have 21 pages of matches! Yikes!

Some of them are pretty remote, but just the same, that's a lot.

I think that comes from the fact that various branches of my family have been in this country over 300 years.


Well Rich,

I sprang for this test last month and just got my FF results back. I seem to have 98 pages of matches, no close or immediate relatives, but 15 pages of distant relatives (apparently 3rd and 4th cousins) and 83 pages of speculative relatives.

Of course, none of them have surnames in common with my known family tree, although there appear to be some promising clues related to geographic locations (i.e., common towns). I will pursue some of those possibilities.

You'll probably not be surprised to learn that Population Finder results states 100.0% Middle Eastern with a 0.01% margin of error. I apparently have no autosomal DNA in common with any of my R-L21 Celts (unless they belong to the Baltic Cluster).


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on May 18, 2012, 08:57:58 PM
That is interesting!

And that is a load of matches!


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: seferhabahir on May 19, 2012, 12:32:41 PM
That is interesting!

And that is a load of matches!

Having flunked the Celtic matching test with Family Finder, I decided to run my autosomal results through Dienekes Pontikos' latest DIYDodecad tools (this is with his K12b calculator). I have now confirmed my wife's long-time suspicion about why I like sausage and peppers so much.

The top two autosomal groups (very closely bunched) based on DIYDodecad Oracle calculations are:
 Ashkenazi (Jews)
 Sicilian

Following those two groups (but somewhat further behind in closeness) in order were:
 Sephardic (Jews)
 Greek
 Morocco (Jews)
 Italian
 Tuscan
 Cypriot
 Turkish
 Lebanese
 Turks
 Syrians
 Bulgarians
 Jordanians
 Druze

Nothing shows up at all for me from Northern Europe or the British Isles (at least in the first 20 ethnic groupings). This seems pretty consistent with my intuition about no recent conversions on any family tree line and the hereditary Levite situation on my R-L21 Y-DNA. This supports my suspicion that the R-L21 Baltic Cluster is an old line and distinct from the vast majority of known R-L21 subclades.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 20, 2012, 05:17:44 AM
Dear Seferhabahir, I avoided to answer you. In these times, also to call someone “dear” is dangerous. You said: “You'll probably not be surprised to learn that Population Finder results states 100.0% Middle Eastern with a 0.01% margin of error”. What should FTDNA say to its customers who do the exam to confirm their Middle Easterner and Jewish origin?
The Dienekes’ results seem to me less ideological and more true. What are they demonstrating? What we know from many years. For what concerns me, from the beginning of my researches. Because we cannot think that Sicilians, Greeks, Tuscans, Italians etc. are all of Jewish descent, I let you draw a conclusion.
About your R-L21 I can say that this is the unique thing interesting and I am open to every conclusion, but about this I have already said to you which is my thinking.   


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on May 20, 2012, 06:55:29 AM
A couple of years ago, when Anatole Klyosov did his analysis of the Baltic Cluster, he concluded that its members share a common y-dna ancestor who was born in the 14th-15th centuries in Central Europe. Here is what Dr. Klyosov wrote at the time:

Quote from: Anatole Klyosov
. . . [A]ll these haplotypes have 8 mutations in 25 markers and 14 mutations in 37 markers. This places the common ancestor of all 7 haplotypes 650±240 years back if calculating on the basis of 25-markers and 550±160 back if calculating on the basis of 37 markers. In other words these seven people have a common ancestor who lived in the 14-15th century. It is possible to reconstruct that these families fled Central Europe around 650 years ago when Europe was depopulated by the bubonic plaque and Jews were often massacred as alleged culprits of the epidemic. The surviving Jews fled to Lithuania and Poland, who offered them protection. Jews at that time experienced a genetic bottleneck. That is why the most distant common ancestor of many Jewish clusters lived in the middle of the 14th century or later – that corresponds to the time of their migration to the new territories in Eastern Europe.

That is long enough ago that continued marriage into families with a more Middle Eastern and/or Mediterranean background would eventually produce a completely Middle Eastern/Mediterranean autosomal profile, while the y chromosome remained to tell a somewhat older tale.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 20, 2012, 07:57:46 AM
Rich, we could look at also the mtDNA of Seferhabahir. His J1c7a is European from at least 15,000 years.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: seferhabahir on May 20, 2012, 11:59:59 AM
You said: “You'll probably not be surprised to learn that Population Finder results states 100.0% Middle Eastern with a 0.01% margin of error”. What should FTDNA say to its customers who do the exam to confirm their Middle Easterner and Jewish origin?
The Dienekes’ results seem to me less ideological and more true. What are they demonstrating? What we know from many years. For what concerns me, from the beginning of my researches. Because we cannot think that Sicilians, Greeks, Tuscans, Italians etc. are all of Jewish descent, I let you draw a conclusion.   

Yes, I agree with you that the Population Finder result is very misleading. It places my Jewish FF results in Israel and then says I'm 100% Middle East, when the Dodecad results are in line with more balanced thinking.

Since a significant chunk of the Roman Empire converted to  Judaism 2000 years ago, there are no doubt some (many?) converted Sicilians, Greeks, Tuscans, or Italians amongst my Jewish ancestors. I'm sure you've read Zoossman-Diskin's "The origin of Eastern European Jews revealed by autosomal, sex chromosomal and mtDNA polymorphisms" where this is discussed in detail. I don't know enough about current academic debate on this to comment, but his article seems consistent with my  Dodecad results.

As I've said in other posts, along with my mtDNA J1c7a, there is also my maternal grandfather's Y-DNA J2a* which probably goes back to Caucasus or Levant areas.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 20, 2012, 12:45:24 PM
I posted the paper of Zoossman-Diskin and probably many have read it after me, but I too found it posted by Conroy on Maju’s blog, as nobody spoke of it, neither Dienekes. But I am saying this from many years, and probably for this I gained two banishments and others were promised to me.
I understand what is behind these problems, but I think that a researcher should search only for truth, and also about the mtDNA many things are still hidden. I appreciate you and your sincere research of truth, whatever it is. I have the same your spirit.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: seferhabahir on May 25, 2012, 03:09:05 PM
...I think that a researcher should search only for truth, and also about the mtDNA many things are still hidden. I appreciate you and your sincere research of truth, whatever it is. I have the same your spirit.

Maliclavelli,

Can you help with an interpretation of the following data? I ran my autosomal DNA results through the Dodecad Oracle K12b program with the mixed mode to see what would happen. This provides mixed background estimations. Surprisingly (perhaps to me, but maybe not to you), it predicted mixes of Sephardic_Jews (~87.5%) and Balto/Slavic/Russian (~12.5%) for the top 10 mixed modes as follows:

1) 86.7% Sephardic_Jews, 13.3% Mordovians_Y
2) 87.2% Sephardic_Jews, 12.8% Russian
3) 87.1% Sephardic_Jews, 12.9% Russian_D
4) 87.0% Sephardic_Jews, 13.0% Russian_B
5) 86.6% Sephardic_Jews, 13.4% Mixed_Slav_D
6) 89.1% Sephardic_Jews, 10.9% Finnish_D
7) 88.9% Sephardic_Jews, 11.1% FIN30
8) 85.9% Sephardic_Jews, 14.1% Ukrainians_Y
9) 88.4% Sephardic_Jews, 11.6% Lithuanian_D
10) 87.2% Sephardic_Jews, 12.8% Belorussian

Leaving aside for now where Sephardic Jews originated, might this mean I could have seven of my eight great-grandparents descend mostly from Sephardic background, and one great-grandparent descending from somebody with a Russian/Slavic/Finno-Ugric genetic background? I'm not treating Dodecad as gospel here, but it is certainly more fascinating than an FTDNA 100% Middle Eastern (Jewish) label.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: seferhabahir on May 25, 2012, 03:43:01 PM
Leaving aside for now where Sephardic Jews originated, might this mean I could have seven of my eight great-grandparents descend mostly from Sephardic background, and one great-grandparent descending from somebody with a Russian/Slavic/Finno-Ugric genetic background? I'm not treating Dodecad as gospel here, but it is certainly more fascinating than an FTDNA 100% Middle Eastern (Jewish) label.

I forgot to ask whether this mixed mode result might shed light on why the so-called R-L21 "Baltic Cluster" exists in the first place. Perhaps the name is more accurate than we imagined and the cluster members are related to a Balto-Russian/Slavic/Finno-Ugric male who maybe found himself out in the Rhineland in 1100-1400 CE before all his male descendants were pushed east into the Pale? That is the likely time and place of the Batlic Cluster's MRCA according to Klyosov and other estimations. The other option is the Baltic Cluster may have come out of Sephardic Jewry, and it is just me that has a recent Balto-Russian/Slavic/Finno-Ugric ancestor.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: seferhabahir on May 25, 2012, 08:12:46 PM
I forgot to ask whether this mixed mode result might shed light on why the so-called R-L21 "Baltic Cluster" exists in the first place. Perhaps the name is more accurate than we imagined and the cluster members are related to a Balto-Russian/Slavic/Finno-Ugric male who maybe found himself out in the Rhineland in 1100-1400 CE before all his male descendants were pushed east into the Pale? That is the likely time and place of the Batlic Cluster's MRCA according to Klyosov and other estimations. The other option is the Baltic Cluster may have come out of Sephardic Jewry, and it is just me that has a recent Balto-Russian/Slavic/Finno-Ugric ancestor.

If a predominantly Sephardic mixed-mode hypothesis is not credible, then yet another option is to look at the mixed-modes that show up as ~95% Ashkenazi with ~5% of something else.  In those cases, the ~5% is either Brahui, Makrani, Balochi, Pathan, Jatt or Burusho (when the measured distances are less than 4.00). I'm sure that this is dependent on whether Dodecad clusters are representative of those populations, or is just a way of balancing the Ashkenazi DNA with these much more eastern groups.

At the moment, I am more interested in the origins of the R-L21 Baltic Cluster than these FF ancestral lineages, and am trying to use these autosomal data to help with that. I posted on another thread there are at least three Baltic Cluster individuals with a set of common SNPs on chromosome 15. Most (but not all) of my other FF matches that are R1b1a2 do not match there, but there are some that do. I am not able to find out yet if their STRs indicate R-L21 or 1111EE. At least it's fun trying to find out.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 26, 2012, 12:11:20 AM
Seferhabahir, I am seeing only now your post and unfortunately must go to work, but about the North Eastern European component it is clear for me what I have always said to Jews who come from there, and it is demonstrated by the huge presence in Lithuanian Jews of the CCR5delta32 and of a mutation of the breast cancer arisen in North-East Europe, i.e that there is a component from there in you, beside an Italian, German, Khazar and who knows how many others.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on June 23, 2012, 01:26:18 PM
I am up to 271 Family Finder matches as of today.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: seferhabahir on June 28, 2012, 08:51:54 PM
I am up to 271 Family Finder matches as of today.

I am now at 1060 matches. Only one suggested 2nd cousin, but I can't place this person in my line based on his surname. Nineteen suggested 3rd cousins, no related surnames.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Mike Forsythe on June 29, 2012, 08:34:46 AM
1060 matches is a few more than I have...I'm at 98 matches, not counting my An Falcarragh (Crossroads)and West Cork/Kerry, and Leinster matches...I am lucky to get one new match a week...

My direct paternal line has been in North America since mid 1700s..


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on June 29, 2012, 08:52:56 AM
I am up to 271 Family Finder matches as of today.

I am now at 1060 matches. Only one suggested 2nd cousin, but I can't place this person in my line based on his surname. Nineteen suggested 3rd cousins, no related surnames.

Wow! You have me beat, although my list of matches seems to be growing all the time.

I'm up to 274 now.

No real close relatives yet.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on July 06, 2012, 08:50:12 AM
Over the last few days, the Family Finder matches "New Since" function doesn't seem to work. FF will give me all my matches, but when I try to check the "New Since" a certain date, the thing just times out.

Anyone else having that problem?


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on July 06, 2012, 08:52:08 AM
Over the last few days, the Family Finder matches "New Since" function doesn't seem to work. FF will give me all my matches, but when I try to check the "New Since" a certain date, the thing just times out.

Anyone else having that problem?

Okay, I got it to work by pushing back the date a bit.

I still wonder what the problem was.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: seferhabahir on July 28, 2012, 01:04:08 PM
I am up to 271 Family Finder matches as of today.
I am now at 1060 matches. Only one suggested 2nd cousin, but I can't place this person in my line based on his surname. Nineteen suggested 3rd cousins, no related surnames.

I am now up to 1120 matches. Here is the oldest picture I have of a relative (this is my paternal great-grandfather, and my link into R-L21 Celtic wonderland). But I don't really see any Celtic here after some 600-700 years of Ashkenazi autosomal gene-pool mixing. I was going to try to post this in the "Is R-L21 Really Celtic" thread, but unfortunately (or fortunately) it got closed down during my recent vacation to Victoria, Canada.

(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/9500/croppednissan.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/croppednissan.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on July 28, 2012, 10:24:57 PM
Neat photo!

Here is the oldest photo I have of a y-dna line ancestor, my great great grandfather, James Holmes Stevens,  born 1835 in Beaver County, Pennsylvania.

(http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/5615/jamesholmesstevens.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/560/jamesholmesstevens.jpg/)

I don't look anything like him (I still have all my hair, for one thing).


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: princenuadha on July 28, 2012, 11:19:16 PM
(I still have all my hair, for one thing).

And that is the most important thing : )

I still have my fingers crossed.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on July 29, 2012, 10:56:17 AM
Since we are posting photos of ancestors, here is my most distant known mtDNA ancestor, my maternal great grandmother, Nora Lancaster Morris (maiden surname Lancaster), born 1878 in Alabama and U5a2.

(http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/1720/noraelancasterandkids.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/noraelancasterandkids.jpg/)

Nora is the adult. That's my maternal grandmother, Lela Morris, on her lap. The bigger girl on the right (Nora's left) is, I believe, Katie Morris, a niece. The boy on the far left (Nora's right) is my grandmother's brother, Doyle Morris. The other little blond girl is, I think, my grandmother's sister, but I don't yet know her name.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: seferhabahir on July 29, 2012, 02:44:32 PM
Since we are posting photos of ancestors, here is my most distant known mtDNA ancestor, my maternal great grandmother, Nora Lancaster Morris (maiden surname Lancaster), born 1878 in Alabama and U5a2.

Nora is the adult. That's my maternal grandmother, Lela Morris, on her lap. The bigger girl on the right (Nora's left) is, I believe, Katie Morris, a niece. The boy on the far left (Nora's right) is my grandmother's brother, Doyle Morris. The other little blond girl is, I think, my grandmother's sister, but I don't yet know her name.

And they all have nice heads of hair, too. I don't know if my great-grandfather had any hair under that cap, but my father starting going bald on the top of his head in his early 20's. Is there a gene or combo of SNPs for male pattern baldness?


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on July 30, 2012, 06:31:07 AM
Since we are posting photos of ancestors, here is my most distant known mtDNA ancestor, my maternal great grandmother, Nora Lancaster Morris (maiden surname Lancaster), born 1878 in Alabama and U5a2.

Nora is the adult. That's my maternal grandmother, Lela Morris, on her lap. The bigger girl on the right (Nora's left) is, I believe, Katie Morris, a niece. The boy on the far left (Nora's right) is my grandmother's brother, Doyle Morris. The other little blond girl is, I think, my grandmother's sister, but I don't yet know her name.

And they all have nice heads of hair, too. I don't know if my great-grandfather had any hair under that cap, but my father starting going bald on the top of his head in his early 20's. Is there a gene or combo of SNPs for male pattern baldness?

I think there is, and I believe FTDNA has a "Factoid" test for it.

I've always heard that you inherit baldness or the lack thereof from your mother, and that if you want to know whether you will be bald or not, look at your maternal grandfather, but I don't know if that is true.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on July 30, 2012, 07:36:36 AM
Since we are posting photos of ancestors, here is my most distant known mtDNA ancestor, my maternal great grandmother, Nora Lancaster Morris (maiden surname Lancaster), born 1878 in Alabama and U5a2.

Nora is the adult. That's my maternal grandmother, Lela Morris, on her lap. The bigger girl on the right (Nora's left) is, I believe, Katie Morris, a niece. The boy on the far left (Nora's right) is my grandmother's brother, Doyle Morris. The other little blond girl is, I think, my grandmother's sister, but I don't yet know her name.

And they all have nice heads of hair, too. I don't know if my great-grandfather had any hair under that cap, but my father starting going bald on the top of his head in his early 20's. Is there a gene or combo of SNPs for male pattern baldness?

I think there is, and I believe FTDNA has a "Factoid" test for it.

I've always heard that you inherit baldness or the lack thereof from your mother, and that if you want to know whether you will be bald or not, look at your maternal grandfather, but I don't know if that is true.

Apparently that is true. You do inherit baldness from your mother, at least according to SNPedia:

http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Baldness (http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Baldness)

Quote
Male pattern baldness, sometimes abbreviated MPB and referred to clinically as androgenetic alopecia, is thought to affect up to 80% of all males by the age of 80. It is clearly a genetic trait (i.e. it's inherited), and depends on levels of the hormone androgen and the Androgen Receptor (AR) gene on the X chromosome, but the actual cause remains unknown. Males inherit their X chromosome from their mothers, so AR's contribution to male pattern baldness is inherited maternally.

The SNP involved is rs1385699, but evidently it's not in Family Finder, because I couldn't find it in my raw data.

Since the trait comes via the X chromosome, I guess looking at your maternal grandfather is only a partial clue. Since your mom has two X chromosomes, the one she passed on to you could be the one she got from her mother. And she could have passed on the X she got from her mother, and so on!

Anyway, here's a photo of my maternal grandfather, who kept his hair.

(http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/7197/jameswaltergistandcowol.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/803/jameswaltergistandcowol.jpg/)


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: seferhabahir on August 11, 2012, 10:49:55 AM
I am up to 271 Family Finder matches as of today.
I am now at 1060 matches. Only one suggested 2nd cousin, but I can't place this person in my line based on his surname. Nineteen suggested 3rd cousins, no related surnames.

I am now up to 1120 matches. Here is the oldest picture I have of a relative (this is my paternal great-grandfather, and my link into R-L21 Celtic wonderland). But I don't really see any Celtic here after some 600-700 years of Ashkenazi autosomal gene-pool mixing. I was going to try to post this in the "Is R-L21 Really Celtic" thread, but unfortunately (or fortunately) it got closed down during my recent vacation to Victoria, Canada.

(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/9500/croppednissan.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/croppednissan.jpg/)


I have quite by accident stumbled across a woman doing family tree research in ancestry.com for her (non-relative) godfather, who is the grandson of the brother-in-law of my paternal great-grandfather above. If I did the math right, this makes her godfather my 2nd cousin once removed. Too bad it is not on the Y-DNA line.

The cool part is this brother-in-law to my great-grandfather had a nephew who died intestate with no descendents. My new genealogy woman friend found a forty year old probate document that listed all of the deceased's first and second cousins. At that time, they had no record of my great-grandmother so my family was not listed. Some time later one of the cousins recalled there was yet another sister to the father of the deceased (and this was the wife of my great-grandfather above), so she started pulling records from ancestry.com for my paternal line which is how I found her.

So now I have been able to add a gigantic number of people to my tree (perhaps close to one hundred) from her work and the documents she uncovered. It goes a long way towards explaining the proliferation of FF cousins that keep showing up (still looking for the surname matches, but now I have a lot more). Many of these relatives had six to ten children each, most of whom survived to adulthood.

(Yowzah!!!)


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on August 11, 2012, 10:58:09 AM
Gold mine!

Congratulations!


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: seferhabahir on August 11, 2012, 11:58:04 AM
Gold mine!

Congratulations!

Ooops. The woman friend's godfather in the above post is the grandson of the brother-in-law of my great-grandfather, not the brother-in-law. I'll correct the previous post.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on August 11, 2012, 01:09:58 PM
I picked up another Canadian among my FF matches last night. That makes at least two that I have seen. Otherwise, my matches mostly have ancestry in the South. I do have a few (well, at least two for sure) FF matches with current British citizens. That amazed me, since my family has been in North America for a long long time. The most recent arrival that I know of was one of my 4th great grandfathers on my father's side, who came from Ireland in 1803.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: seferhabahir on August 12, 2012, 06:41:14 PM
You said: “You'll probably not be surprised to learn that Population Finder results states 100.0% Middle Eastern with a 0.01% margin of error”. What should FTDNA say to its customers who do the exam to confirm their Middle Easterner and Jewish origin?
The Dienekes’ results seem to me less ideological and more true. What are they demonstrating? What we know from many years. For what concerns me, from the beginning of my researches. Because we cannot think that Sicilians, Greeks, Tuscans, Italians etc. are all of Jewish descent, I let you draw a conclusion.   

Yes, I agree with you that the Population Finder result is very misleading. It places my Jewish FF results in Israel and then says I'm 100% Middle East, when the Dodecad results are in line with more balanced thinking.

Since a significant chunk of the Roman Empire converted to  Judaism 2000 years ago, there are no doubt some (many?) converted Sicilians, Greeks, Tuscans, or Italians amongst my Jewish ancestors. I'm sure you've read Zoossman-Diskin's "The origin of Eastern European Jews revealed by autosomal, sex chromosomal and mtDNA polymorphisms" where this is discussed in detail. I don't know enough about current academic debate on this to comment, but his article seems consistent with my  Dodecad results.

As I've said in other posts, along with my mtDNA J1c7a, there is also my maternal grandfather's Y-DNA J2a* which probably goes back to Caucasus or Levant areas.

There are some recent posts on Dienekes' blog about a brand new paper:

The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses

(authored by Eran Israeli-Elhaik of Johns-Hopkins)

Available as a pdf at http://arxiv.org/abs/1208.1092

This paper contrasts the two major schools of thought on where Central and Eastern European Jews originated. References work of Behar (2010), Zoossmann-Diskin (2010), Sand (2009), Koestler (1976), and many others. Conclusions make a case for large Caucasus ancestry along with Southern European, Middle Eastern, and Eastern European ancestries, in agreement with recent studies and oral and written traditions, and that the genomes of European Jews are a tapestry of ancient populations including Judaized Khazars, Greco-Roman and Mesopotamian Jews, and also Judeans.

Here is the abstract:

The question of Jewish ancestry has been the subject of controversy for over two centuries and has yet to be resolved. The "Rhineland Hypothesis" proposes that Eastern European Jews emerged from a small group of German Jews who migrated eastward and expanded rapidly. Alternatively, the "Khazarian Hypothesis" suggests that Eastern European descended from Judean tribes who joined the Khazars, an amalgam of Turkic clans that settled the Caucasus in the early centuries CE and converted to Judaism in the 8th century. The Judaized Empire was continuously reinforced with Mesopotamian and Greco-Roman Jews until the 13th century. Following the collapse of their empire, the Judeo-Khazars fled to Eastern Europe. The rise of European Jewry is therefore explained by the contribution of the Judeo-Khazars. Thus far, however, their contribution has been estimated only empirically; the absence of genome-wide data from Caucasus populations precluded testing the Khazarian Hypothesis. Recent sequencing of modern Caucasus populations prompted us to revisit the Khazarian Hypothesis and compare it with the Rhineland Hypothesis. We applied a wide range of population genetic analyses - including principal component, biogeographical origin, admixture, identity by descent, allele sharing distance, and uniparental analyses - to compare these two hypotheses. Our findings support the Khazarian Hypothesis and portray the European Jewish genome as a mosaic of Caucasus, European, and Semitic ancestries, thereby consolidating previous contradictory reports of Jewish ancestry.




Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: seferhabahir on August 12, 2012, 07:52:44 PM

There are some recent posts on Dienekes' blog about a brand new paper:

The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses

(authored by Eran Israeli-Elhaik of Johns-Hopkins)


Razib Khan's review of this paper (apparently a pre-print) is at

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/08/ashkenazi-jews-are-probably-not-descended-from-the-khazars/


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on September 09, 2012, 08:17:53 PM
This subforum and this thread have been dormant for awhile. I keep getting FF matches that I cannot seem to make a connection on. I know they are relatives. I just can't figure out how.

I feel like a trapper. My FF thingy is sitting there among the fallen leaves waiting for a big bear to step in it: the big bear of a relationship that will net me some good information.

Patience, patience . . . back at the cabin, drinking a beer.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on September 26, 2012, 07:51:01 PM
Did you all complete the Family Finder survey on your myFTDNA pages?

I'm afraid mine won't be of much help: all four of my grandparents were born in the USA.

I think I hear Bruce Springsteen starting to sing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZD4ezDbbu4).


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: seferhabahir on September 27, 2012, 02:47:58 AM
Did you all complete the Family Finder survey on your myFTDNA pages?

I'm afraid mine won't be of much help: all four of my grandparents were born in the USA.

I think I hear Bruce Springsteen starting to sing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZD4ezDbbu4).

Yes, I filled it out - all 8 of my great-grandparents were Ashkenazi.

I think I hear Mike Bloomfield starting to sing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yw7UulPuEA).



Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: glentane on September 27, 2012, 05:42:31 PM
Did you all complete the Family Finder survey ..
Yup. Got a bit non-plussed by the "Which City?" field, and ended up claiming what were little more than rows of houses a few miles (or yards!) apart as grand metropolises, as the distinctions are made in the records, like what they oughta, having done so since Domesday or something.
It's OK, they come up on Wiki as proper places, and it explains all the gubmint meddling, amalgamation and reassigning that's gone on recently.
To go out on a limb somewhat, basically the same handful of near-adjacent parishes since at least the fourteenth century, perhaps for nearly all of them. Pretty certain about the paternal sides of both parents. Dullards. If it hadn't been for conscription and mass mobilisation of my parent's generation, I'd still be there <shudder>.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: djm3808 on September 28, 2012, 12:46:55 PM
Just completed the survey, all my grand parents were born in the US as well.

I ordered the family finder test today, looking to fill a gap between my great grand father and the ancestors I find through Y-DNA testing or confirm a relationship to a family in 1850s Missouri.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on September 28, 2012, 07:21:45 PM
Just completed the survey, all my grand parents were born in the US as well.

I ordered the family finder test today, looking to fill a gap between my great grand father and the ancestors I find through Y-DNA testing or confirm a relationship to a family in 1850s Missouri.

I've enjoyed my Family Finder results and have gotten a lot out of them. Once you get your results, download your raw data and check out some of the other threads in this subforum. You can see where you stand on some interesting alleles.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: djm3808 on September 28, 2012, 08:30:14 PM
Just completed the survey, all my grand parents were born in the US as well.

I ordered the family finder test today, looking to fill a gap between my great grand father and the ancestors I find through Y-DNA testing or confirm a relationship to a family in 1850s Missouri.

I've enjoyed my Family Finder results and have gotten a lot out of them. Once you get your results, download your raw data and check out some of the other threads in this subforum. You can see where you stand on some interesting alleles.


I'm excited to see the results, I've hit a brick wall trying to find some of these connections with traditional research. Should have ordered the test months ago.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: seferhabahir on October 25, 2012, 12:53:41 AM
Up to 1309 matches at last count. Not really sure what to do with such a large number, and am now looking forward more to seeing my Geno 2.0 results as well as my cousin's results, and maybe hoping that FTDNA's Population Finder fine tuning will eventually provide more interesting interpretations.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: djm3808 on October 25, 2012, 03:24:04 AM
I received results yesterday, several weeks early.

PF results:
Western European, Orcadian 92.98%
Middle East, Palestinian, Adygei, Bedouin, Bedouin South, Druze, Iranian, Jewish   7.02%

221 matches and I don't recognise many surnames, going to take some work contacting some of them to share more info.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: seferhabahir on January 03, 2013, 04:17:42 AM
Too bad this board is not more active. I am now up to an amazingly large 1405 Family Finder matches, among them Bennett Greenspan, Max Blankfeld, Elise Friedman (or else their relatives), someone I went to high school with in the 1960's, and someone from my local neighborhood synagogue. I doubt that I could place any of them on my family tree since these relations likely go back several hundreds of years. It's still fun anyway.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on January 04, 2013, 12:35:16 PM
Too bad this board is not more active. I am now up to an amazingly large 1405 Family Finder matches, among them Bennett Greenspan, Max Blankfeld, Elise Friedman (or else their relatives), someone I went to high school with in the 1960's, and someone from my local neighborhood synagogue. I doubt that I could place any of them on my family tree since these relations likely go back several hundreds of years. It's still fun anyway.

I keep picking up more matches, too: most of them pretty weak, but some not too bad. Most of these newer matches don't list any surnames at all. Those that do either don't share any with me that I know about or share some that are so remote that they are unlikely to represent the genetic connection.

But, like you said, it's fun anyway.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Mike Forsythe on February 23, 2013, 09:23:22 AM
Yesterday I had 14 pages of matches on my Family Finder list, today I noticed I have 11 pages. As some of the old matches don’t show up, and 6 new matches have been added... Has anyone else experienced this?


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on February 23, 2013, 01:33:42 PM
I just seem to be getting more pages, but I'll watch for that. Last I looked, I had 37 pages of matches.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: seferhabahir on February 23, 2013, 01:52:07 PM
Yesterday I had 14 pages of matches on my Family Finder list, today I noticed I have 11 pages. As some of the old matches don’t show up, and 6 new matches have been added... Has anyone else experienced this?

I lost 150 matches yesterday, down to 1255 from 1405. Also my previous closest match (who was listed as a 2nd cousin) has dropped to a remote cousin. They have apparently revised their formulas.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Mike Forsythe on February 23, 2013, 02:27:54 PM
One would think my 6 new matches should have been added prior to eliminating the others regardless...

I am going to contact FTDNA and find out "whats-up" I found some good connections on the one that was eliminated, that I couldn't have done had I not had it...


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on February 23, 2013, 03:19:00 PM
One would think my 6 new matches should have been added prior to eliminating the others regardless...

I am going to contact FTDNA and find out "whats-up" I found some good connections on the one that was eliminated, that I couldn't have done had I not had it...

I just looked at mine and I now have 32 pages of matches. Like I said, I had 37 before. Let me know if you find out anything.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Mike Forsythe on February 23, 2013, 03:54:07 PM
will do...hoefuly I'll receive an answer soon.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: djm3808 on February 23, 2013, 05:51:14 PM
I don't know the exact count but I had about a page and a half of 3rd cousins, now down to half page, didn't lose any one I had been able to connect with but it makes you wonder.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Mike Forsythe on February 25, 2013, 02:32:15 PM


I just looked at mine and I now have 32 pages of matches. Like I said, I had 37 before. Let me know if you find out anything.

I would imagine this was quite time consuming, and has a lot to do with the log-jam we have experiencing in the delay in receiving results...this would mean FTDNA would have to go through all Family Finder autosomal results files, I would think to upgrade from build 36 to build37..

If you go to your “New Bata Page” you will find the following...

February 24, 2013. Thank you for your patience as we work out the last kinks in the Family Finder build 36 to build 37 upgrade process. We have noted problems with some kits in the testing process. These kits will be re-run and added back into matching in the next week. Meanwhile, you may notice that some of your matches even in the immediate category are missing from your match list. If the data indicates they are accurate matches, they will reappear on your list once all the final adjustments have been made.
With the upgrade, you may notice some differences with your matches. Build 37 has refined scientific knowledge of centiMorgan (cM) values. Thus, the number of matches in the speculative range has been reduced by eliminating false positives. As always, keep in mind that matches in the speculative range may be legitimate distant matches, where distant could mean hundreds of years, or they may be irrelevant matches created by “noise”—small coincidental matching segments that create the illusion of matching. The industry-standard build allows us to more accurately distinguish between real matches and "noise." Even some of your closer matches may move somewhat to more accurately reflect their genetic relationship to you. We will continue to work on improving our matching algorithm to give you more accurate results. Again, we thank you for your patience during this process.
However, if you notice anything that you believe is an error, please let us know by using our Feedback Form or by contacting helpdesk@familytreedna.com.
Bennett Greenspan
Max Blankfeld



Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: Mike Forsythe on February 25, 2013, 02:45:25 PM
I am not sure how FTDNA can determine that one of my lost matches also confirms paper-trail, yet is considered “noise”
The overall cMs was around 40 with the largest segment around 8... not a close match, but it was reliable..


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: seferhabahir on May 10, 2013, 03:57:48 AM
Time to liven up the thread...

A new 12, 25, and 37 marker Y-DNA match to me showed up on April 26th. At 37 markers this person is a GD 3 to me, but an exact match to one of my fellow L583+ folks (Burde). I encouraged him (well, the person handling this new match's tests) to test for L583 last week.

Today, I discovered that my new match's sister is listed as a 4th cousin (by extension my new match would be also) in Family Finder, with a matching segment that is pretty consistent with a 4th (or 5th) cousin. This may mean he and I share the same g-g-g-grandfather (or same g-g-g-g-grandfather).

I am only able to trace to my g-g-grandfather, and then hit a wall, so this would be a real breakthrough if I can find a geographic link and a SNP match. I'm going to try to make a stronger case for them to test (heck, I would even pay for it, given the potential for having a genealogical L583 connection).


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on May 11, 2013, 08:14:29 AM
Time to liven up the thread...

A new 12, 25, and 37 marker Y-DNA match to me showed up on April 26th. At 37 markers this person is a GD 3 to me, but an exact match to one of my fellow L583+ folks (Burde). I encouraged him (well, the person handling this new match's tests) to test for L583 last week.

Today, I discovered that my new match's sister is listed as a 4th cousin (by extension my new match would be also) in Family Finder, with a matching segment that is pretty consistent with a 4th (or 5th) cousin. This may mean he and I share the same g-g-g-grandfather (or same g-g-g-g-grandfather).

I am only able to trace to my g-g-grandfather, and then hit a wall, so this would be a real breakthrough if I can find a geographic link and a SNP match. I'm going to try to make a stronger case for them to test (heck, I would even pay for it, given the potential for having a genealogical L583 connection).

Awesome!

I hope this turns out to be a real breakthrough for you.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: seferhabahir on May 20, 2013, 05:53:02 PM
After the latest batch of tests, my matches now up to 1681, my cousin's matches now up to 1760. Most are remote cousin noise, but quite a few have promise to demonstrate real relationships.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: rms2 on June 10, 2013, 08:06:20 PM
Here's a heads-up. It looks like FTDNA churned out some Family Finder stuff today. You may want to check for new matches.

I have six new ones, three of them pretty good, including one that is now topping my list.


Title: Re: Family Finder Results - Let's Discuss This Stuff!
Post by: seferhabahir on June 18, 2013, 11:42:01 AM
Here's a heads-up. It looks like FTDNA churned out some Family Finder stuff today. You may want to check for new matches.

I have six new ones, three of them pretty good, including one that is now topping my list.

I now have another cousin's results (a 2nd cousin 1x removed to me) to compare with my original one (a 3rd cousin to me). Those two are 1st cousins 1x removed and have a whopping 697 cM shared with many matching segments over 40 cM. I'm trying to find the segments that link us all to the same ancestor, by trying to eliminate maternal line matching segments that are not at all related to me. Somewhat difficult via the chromosome browser, but I do know our common ancestor is an R2 which narrows it down a little bit.