World Families Forums

General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse. => R1b General => Topic started by: rms2 on October 20, 2011, 07:12:53 PM



Title: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: rms2 on October 20, 2011, 07:12:53 PM
We have an unusual result this evening. As far as I know, this is the first L21+ guy who has gotten an L459- result: Bonham, kit 92311, Ysearch M2J8N.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: seferhabahir on October 20, 2011, 08:09:55 PM
We have an unusual result this evening. As far as I know, this is the first L21+ guy who has gotten an L459- result: Bonham, kit 92311, Ysearch M2J8N.

That's what it says. What does it mean?


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: Jdean on October 20, 2011, 08:25:24 PM
We have an unusual result this evening. As far as I know, this is the first L21+ guy who has gotten an L459- result: Bonham, kit 92311, Ysearch M2J8N.

Wow !!!

I was beginning to think we wouldn't see one of these, or an L21- L459+ for that matter.

Guess we can stop bemoaning the lack of testing for this one with P312* folks

The name Bonham sounds like it could have a French derivation, 'The good man' ? but it had a hotspot in the 1881 census in central England around Alyesbury.

I suppose that make me R-L459* now :)

I wounder if this chap is considering Z245 ?


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: rms2 on October 20, 2011, 08:30:50 PM
We have an unusual result this evening. As far as I know, this is the first L21+ guy who has gotten an L459- result: Bonham, kit 92311, Ysearch M2J8N.

That's what it says. What does it mean?

Well, up until today, all the L21+ guys  who have tested for L459 - and there have been quite a few - have been L459+.

This is the first L21+ L459- result I know of.

It might mean a number of things, if it's not an error. For one thing, it means L459 and L21 are not equivalent. It also apparently means L459 is downstream of L21 and not the other way around.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: seferhabahir on October 20, 2011, 08:39:43 PM
We have an unusual result this evening. As far as I know, this is the first L21+ guy who has gotten an L459- result: Bonham, kit 92311, Ysearch M2J8N.

That's what it says. What does it mean?

Well, up until today, all the L21+ guys  who have tested for L459 - and there have been quite a few - have been L459+.

This is the first L21+ L459- result I know of.

It might mean a number of things, if it's not an error. For one thing, it means L459 and L21 are not equivalent. It also apparently means L459 is downstream of L21 and not the other way around.

If correct, then it will surely mess up all the long tree naming conventions again, because it looks like its upstream of everything else.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: Chuck Blandford on October 20, 2011, 08:40:57 PM
Quote
I wonder if this chap is considering Z245 ?

ASAP


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: OConnor on October 20, 2011, 09:57:56 PM
could it be a different mutation change event? or a back-mutation of some sort?


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 20, 2011, 10:46:27 PM
We have an unusual result this evening. As far as I know, this is the first L21+ guy who has gotten an L459- result: Bonham, kit 92311, Ysearch M2J8N.
So it looks like we are all mostly R-L459 guys now.  Only Bonham can prove he is R-L21*.
It would mean he is the only true possessor of R1b1a2a1b4.  The rest of us will start, whenever FTDNA updates the haplotree, getting an "a" I suppose after the 4.

Now there is a very good reason to test for L459.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: jerome72 on October 21, 2011, 02:26:20 PM
92311 Nicholas Bonham, b.c. 1631

Maybe, It's him:
http://gw4.geneanet.org/mkfarkus?b=mkfarkus&lang=en&p=nicholas&n=bonham

The most ancien ancestor:
http://gw4.geneanet.org/mkfarkus?lang=en;p=thomas;n=bonham


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 21, 2011, 03:09:37 PM
The name Bonham sounds like it could have a French derivation, 'The good man' ? but it had a hotspot in the 1881 census in central England around Alyesbury.
Why Bonham (M2J8N) would be a French? He matches closely Morley (MEH5G) and French, like their President, have of French pretty always neither the surname nor the Y.
If R-L21+/L459- is the most ancient of this haplogroup, don’t search in France.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: rms2 on October 21, 2011, 08:15:03 PM
I think Jdean was thinking of the similarity of Bonham and Bonhomme.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: rms2 on October 21, 2011, 08:17:23 PM
I wonder if our Bonham is related to John Bonham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bonham), whom I saw live with his famous band at Kezar Stadium in San Francisco in June of 1973. Great show.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: seferhabahir on October 22, 2011, 12:01:29 AM
I wonder if our Bonham is related to John Bonham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bonham), whom I saw live with his famous band at Kezar Stadium in San Francisco in June of 1973. Great show.

Saw Bonham (and his somewhat more famous bandmates) at Winterland in November 1969. Got there kind of late, and had to sit almost in the last row way up at the top on the right of the stage. Bad view, but great place for a contact high. Surprised I can still remember the evening.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 22, 2011, 10:40:36 AM
The name Bonham sounds like it could have a French derivation, 'The good man' ? but it had a hotspot in the 1881 census in central England around Alyesbury.
Why Bonham (M2J8N) would be a French? He matches closely Morley (MEH5G) and French, like their President, have of French pretty always neither the surname nor the Y.
If R-L21+/L459- is the most ancient of this haplogroup, don’t search in France.

Bonham is using the blogger handle "de Bonham" so I asked if he thought his surname origin was French or Spanish. He replied that he and his 66/67 match Bonham are both with MDKA's blocked in the US, one in Massachusetts and the other in New Jersey, both in the 1600's.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 22, 2011, 10:50:59 AM
I almost hate to say it, but from a project standpoint it seems like one course of action might be to have the 66/67 Bonham match test for L459 and confirm the L459-. Then make a push to test for L459 among continental L21* folks.

If we found a concentration of L21+ L459- people somewhere that might be important.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 22, 2011, 11:04:50 AM
I wanted to say this: Bonham ( but there is also Bonhan explained with Gaelic who matches him) is probably of Norman origin (“English: nickname from Old French bon homme (Latin bonus homo). This had two senses relevant to surname formation; partly it had the literal meaning ‘good man’, and partly it came to mean ‘peasant farmer’. Americanized form of French Bonhomme”), but Normans were “Northmen”, then their Y should be linked to Scandinavians than to French. This is against my theories, but we are seeing that North Europe had from ancient times R-P312* and some subclades, and it isn’t said that R-L21 doesn’t come more from North than from South. Of course they can be arrived to North from South after the Glaciation or with the expansion from Spain if they descend from the Italian Agriculturalists of the Cardial/Impressa of 7500YBP, but all this should be demonstrated by some aDNA.
Of course others may think to a diffusion from East Europe or from Central Europe, but also this should be demonstrated by some aDNA.




Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: rms2 on October 22, 2011, 11:14:09 AM
I wanted to say this: Bonham ( but there is also Bonhan explained with Gaelic who matches him) is probably of Norman origin (“English: nickname from Old French bon homme (Latin bonus homo). This had two senses relevant to surname formation; partly it had the literal meaning ‘good man’, and partly it came to mean ‘peasant farmer’. Americanized form of French Bonhomme”), but Normans were “Northmen”, then their Y should be linked to Scandinavians than to French. This is against my theories, but we are seeing that North Europe had from ancient times R-P312* and some subclades, and it isn’t said that R-L21 doesn’t come more from North than from South. Of course they can be arrived to North from South after the Glaciation or with the expansion from Spain if they descend from the Italian Agriculturalists of the Cardial/Impressa of 7500YBP, but all this should be demonstrated by some aDNA.
Of course others may think to a diffusion from East Europe or from Central Europe, but also this should be demonstrated by some aDNA.




Thus far, from what I have seen, Normandy is mostly R-L21. The "Northmen" seem to have been pretty sparse on the ground there. I think there was a thin veneer of Viking elites who didn't last long and whose y-lines - I'm guessing - may have, to a large extent, daughtered out.

There certainly weren't enough of them to impose their language on the natives.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 22, 2011, 11:16:28 AM
It seems that these R-L459- haven't a characterized cluster for being at the origin of this haplogroup. Certainly those Italians like Argiedude or Soncina, if he belongs to this haplogroup with his DYS450=10, seem to have more variance. But I am the theorist of the mutations around the modal and this fact may demonstrate nothing.
The characteristics of this haplotype are only DYS439=11 and DYS447=24: very few for being a very ancient haplotype.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 22, 2011, 11:21:25 AM
Normans didn't impose their language because they married French women, but I have been more surprised in having found my wife (100% Sicilian) a K1c1* (16179T) linked certainly with Normans and I don't understand how Sicilians could have Norman mt if they were married and descendants of French women.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: rms2 on October 22, 2011, 11:28:27 AM
Normans didn't impose their language because they married French women, but I have been more surprised in having found my wife (100% Sicilian) a K1c1* (16179T) linked certainly with Normans and I don't understand how Sicilians could have Norman mt if they were married and descendants of French women.

I also think they did not impose their language because there weren't that many of them, which also seems to be born out by dna testing.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 22, 2011, 11:38:52 AM
We know that Icelandics descend from Scandinavian men and Celtic woman of Britannia. I don't have at hands their Y, but probably it could give us an answer about this.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: rms2 on October 22, 2011, 11:41:36 AM
What I mean is that Normandy doesn't seem to have that much Scandinavian y-dna. It seems to be low in I1, R1a and R-U106. It seems to be much higher in R-L21, R-P312* and a little R-U152.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 22, 2011, 11:43:32 AM
It seems that these R-L459- haven't a characterized cluster for being at the origin of this haplogroup. Certainly those Italians like Argiedude or Soncina, if he belongs to this haplogroup with his DYS450=10, seem to have more variance. But I am the theorist of the mutations around the modal and this fact may demonstrate nothing.
The characteristics of this haplotype are only DYS439=11 and DYS447=24: very few for being a very ancient haplotype.

Of course this demonstrates that the Bonham/Bonhan haplotype is recent and due to a single man and it could have had these mutations around the modal. It would be interesting to test Argiedude and Soncina (if he belongs to this haplogroup) for L459. If they was L459- everything would be clear.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 22, 2011, 11:49:37 AM
Then if Bonham was a Norman of French Y, we should find many R-L459- in France. Next tests will answer this.

But it could be true also that this Y, being a singular one and very rare, being at the origin of the haplogroup, could have survived in Scandinavia more than in France and this Bonham to be a true Norman with this rare R-L21/L459-.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: eochaidh on October 22, 2011, 11:50:49 AM
I wonder if our Bonham is related to John Bonham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bonham), whom I saw live with his famous band at Kezar Stadium in San Francisco in June of 1973. Great show.

Kezar Stadium!!! I'm a native San Franciscan and I loved Kezar Stadium!! We talk about it all the time on our Facebook "Sunset District People" group. It been almost completely torn down now, they saved the east and west entrances I think. I can't even look when I drive by...

I used to take the bus to 49er games when I was a kid and our High School football games were held there. In "The City" we called it the world's largest outdoor bar. There was some big hippie concert there on a Saturday and for some reason Willie Mays was there... when they anounced him the full crowd of drunk, drugged up people (myself included) stood and cheered for at least five minutes.... it was great!

Park Station, Park Emergency, Stanyan St., The Haight, Poly High School, UC on the hill...  Kezar Stadium lives in the heart of native San Franciscans.

Thanks for the memories...


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: rms2 on October 22, 2011, 11:56:45 AM
I wonder if our Bonham is related to John Bonham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bonham), whom I saw live with his famous band at Kezar Stadium in San Francisco in June of 1973. Great show.

Kezar Stadium!!! I'm a native San Franciscan and I loved Kezar Stadium!! We talk about it all the time on our Facebook "Sunset District People" group. It been almost completely torn down now, they saved the east and west entrances I think. I can't even look when I drive by...

I used to take the bus to 49er games when I was a kid and our High School football games were held there. In "The City" we called it the world's largest outdoor bar. There was some big hippie concert there on a Saturday and for some reason Willie Mays was there... when they anounced him the full crowd of drunk, drugged up people (myself included) stood and cheered for at least five minutes.... it was great!

Park Station, Park Emergency, Stanyan St., The Haight, Poly High School, UC on the hill...  Kezar Stadium lives in the heart of native San Franciscans.

Thanks for the memories...

I grew up mostly down in the San Jose area but went up to SF from time to time for this or that. Wild place, as busy at 3AM as at 3PM.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 22, 2011, 11:57:21 AM
... when they anounced him the full crowd of drunk, drugged up people (myself included) stood and cheered for at least five minutes....
Your Y is certainly Irish.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: rms2 on October 22, 2011, 12:09:04 PM
You all may find this hard to believe, but when I went to that Led Zeppelin concert at Kezar in June of 1973, I was and remained absolutely sober, despite the fact that other concert-goers attempted to pass me various drugs.

I was just 17 years old. I didn't use drugs. I just liked rock music. Had they passed me some beer, I probably would have accepted it, but no drugs.

There might have been something of a contact high involved, however. There was a vast cloud of smoke floating around, and that sweet, cloying smell was everywhere. I remember seeing some hippies smoking weed in a large, hollowed-out summer sausage that they had turned into a pipe, and, of course, hand-rolled joints were ubiquitous. Much harder drugs were in evidence, as well.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: eochaidh on October 22, 2011, 12:41:25 PM
You all may find this hard to believe, but when I went to that Led Zeppelin concert at Kezar in June of 1973, I was and remained absolutely sober, despite the fact that other concert-goers attempted to pass me various drugs.

I was just 17 years old. I didn't use drugs. I just liked rock music. Had they passed me some beer, I probably would have accepted it, but no drugs.

There might have been something of a contact high involved, however. There was vast cloud of  smoke floating around, and that sweet, cloying smell was everywhere. I remember seeing some hippies smoking weed in a large, hollowed-out summer sausage that they had turned into a pipe, and, of course, hand-rolled joints were ubiquitous. Much harder drugs were in evidence, as well.
Yea, I was mostly just a drinker (malt liquor and whiskey), but I'd probably tried everything by 18 years old. I came from the Sunset Dustrict out by the Zoo and the beach in the fog. We were largely first generation Irish and our fathers were mostly cops and firemen who hated the hippies! My Dad worked in a grocery store about a 1/4 mile from The Haight. As kids we went to The Haight mostly in the hopes that some hippie chick would take off her top  :)

San Jose had perfect weather! You were lucky!


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 22, 2011, 01:47:30 PM
The Bonhams on ySearch are 11.
2 are E1b1b1 (DG7EE and EYU9J).
7UR4E is R-U106.
The others are all linked and R-L21+/L459- (7ZSCE, FWZR5, JJCZG, JYVX5, M2J8N, MY4RN, NSWM4, XBWVZ).
Then of these Bonhams: 1 is R-U106 and the other is R-L21+/L459-
I think it cannot be excluded they are both Normans.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 22, 2011, 02:02:49 PM
It seems that these R-L459- haven't a characterized cluster for being at the origin of this haplogroup. Certainly those Italians like Argiedude or Soncina, if he belongs to this haplogroup with his DYS450=10, seem to have more variance. But I am the theorist of the mutations around the modal and this fact may demonstrate nothing.
The characteristics of this haplotype are only DYS439=11 and DYS447=24: very few for being a very ancient haplotype.
Of course this demonstrates that the Bonham/Bonhan haplotype is recent and due to a single man and it could have had these mutations around the modal. It would be interesting to test Argiedude and Soncina (if he belongs to this haplogroup) for L459. If they was L459- everything would be clear.
I'm not really following the concept of a very ancient versus recent haplotype other than if this modern man's STR signature is substantially different from others, then his lineage may broken off a long time ago and the variations between his lineage the primary large lineages went extinct.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: seferhabahir on October 22, 2011, 02:12:55 PM

Kezar Stadium!!! ...

Park Station, Park Emergency, Stanyan St., The Haight, Poly High School, UC on the hill...  Kezar Stadium lives in the heart of native San Franciscans.

Thanks for the memories...

And don't forget Mt Zion Hospital, the place of this R-L21's birth...


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: eochaidh on October 22, 2011, 03:24:28 PM

Kezar Stadium!!! ...

Park Station, Park Emergency, Stanyan St., The Haight, Poly High School, UC on the hill...  Kezar Stadium lives in the heart of native San Franciscans.

Thanks for the memories...

And don't forget Mt Zion Hospital, the place of this R-L21's birth...
Wow! It's San Francisco Day! We laugh on the Sunset District page about how there are no "real" natives anymore. Mt. Zion Hospital counts as a "real" native! I was born at Mary's Help when it was on Guerrero St. It was torn down about 1959 and now exists as Seton Hospital near Serramonte.

I'd bet most of the guys I grew up with in the Sunset District are L21+ like me. Most of the families were from Cork and Kerry, but we had some Galway, Roscommon, Mayo, Dublin and Wexford (me) as well...


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: Chuck Blandford on October 22, 2011, 03:27:05 PM
I remember riding my Vespa across the Bay bridge in 1960 from Berzerkly to visit my girl friend who lived in the Presidio.  She was definitly a Viking; tall, blond and beautiful.  I think she dumped me for some bombed out hippie.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 22, 2011, 05:46:38 PM
The name Bonham sounds like it could have a French derivation, 'The good man' ? but it had a hotspot in the 1881 census in central England around Alyesbury.
Why Bonham (M2J8N) would be a French? He matches closely Morley (MEH5G) and French, like their President, have of French pretty always neither the surname nor the Y.
If R-L21+/L459- is the most ancient of this haplogroup, don’t search in France.
Bonham is using the blogger handle "de Bonham" so I asked if he thought his surname origin was French or Spanish. He replied that he and his 66/67 match Bonham are both with MDKA's blocked in the US, one in Massachusetts and the other in New Jersey, both in the 1600's.
Here is the response from L21+ L459- Bonham. I don't argue for or against it, but here it is.
Quote from: Bonham
I can only confirm my lineage back to Nicholas Bonham(bc 1631 and Lived in Massachusetts and New Jersey). He may be the son of George Bonham, from England who settled in Massachusetts, but this has never been proved. I have a well sourced Bonham family tree, which dates back to William de Bonham(bc 1212) who lived in Somerset England. There was an error in the borders, and now this part of England is now part of Wiltshire. I believe my Bonham family line descends from these Bonhams of Wiltshire/Somerset England, but I have not been able to prove it yet. There are earlier Bonhams, in the same area, dating back into the mid 12th century but because of lack of records haven't been placed into the family tree. The surname Bonham appears to have originated in England, but I believe the paternal line is originally from Normandy and are connected to other Norman/English families.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 22, 2011, 06:11:26 PM
Mike, I think that these news are reliable ("The surname Bonham appears to have originated in England, but I believe the paternal line is originally from Normandy and are connected to other Norman/English families"), but my observations are always valid: was his Norman ancestor a "French" or a Scandinavian?
I think, for what I have said, and also watching to the Rich's map, that a Scandinavian origin cannot be excluded, also for the presence of this haplogroup in East Europe and in the same Russia, and the only Italians are, apart Argiedude and possibly Soncina, or French or Sicilians, where a Norman presence, even though at a very low percentage, cannot be excluded.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: rms2 on October 22, 2011, 08:13:36 PM

San Jose had perfect weather! You were lucky!

It was nice. Chula Vista (near San Diego) was even better. We lived there when my dad was stationed at North Island (he was career Navy).

But I like four seasons. I was born just east of the Mississippi, in Memphis, and lived there and in Maryland until I was 8 years old. I always felt like an outsider in California. That may seem odd, but it's true. I grew up there, but I never felt like I really belonged. Of course, being a military brat, I never felt like I belonged anywhere.

By the way, my first job was picking apricots in Milpitas. ;-)


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: deBonham on October 26, 2011, 12:22:36 AM
There is a place near Stourhead, England in Wiltshire that is called Bonham, this piece of property was owned by the Bonhams for many years.  The early Bonhams did use the french preposition "de" I'm guessing as a feudal way showing that they were of Bonham or owned it.  I have stumbled across a Hugh de Kevelioc who according to some websites I found was also known as Hugh de Bonham.  He was the 5th Earl of Chester.  His daughter Mabel of Chester, married William d'Aubigny who is from the d'Aubigny family which William de Bonham(bc 1212 descends from through his mother Juliana d'Aubigny.
I believe I descend from William de Bonham, through his Wiltshire descendants, especially the Nicholas Bonham branch but I can't prove it yet.  As for Hugh de Kevelioc or de Bonham I'm not really sure if he ties in with the family or not.  It makes me wonder if it was during this time that the Bonham surname was still not fully a surname and at it's beginning.


Title: Re: The First L21+ L459-?
Post by: rms2 on November 03, 2011, 07:59:30 PM
As Mike reported on another thread, it turns out a re-test has revealed that Bonham is actually L21-, sad to say. So L459 still seems to be roughly equivalent to L21.