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Title: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 15, 2011, 09:40:28 AM
A new project has started for Z253+ people.  It is found downstream of L21.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-Z253/default.aspx?section=yresults

My understanding is that it was found in the 1000 Human Genome Project in people of probable Iberian descent.
Quote from: David Reynolds
1000 Genomes samples HG01136 (Colombian in Colombia population) and NA19717 (Mexican-American in Los Angelos population) are:
L21+ Z253+ DF23- M222- DF21- DF5- L96- L159.2-
L226- L513- M37- P314.2- Z254- Z255- L144-

FJames spotted this earlier. An L226+ person has Z253+. L226 is about as Irish as you can get. Its concentrated in Munster and is associated with the Irish Type III/Dalcassian STR signature.

Quote from: Dennis Wright
A Dalcassian (Dál gCais) Signature? There is sufficient evidence now  that this clade is that of the Dalcassian clans of Clare, Limerick and  Tipperary, the principal family of whom are the O´Briens.  I am aware  that an O´Brien who has impeccable pedigree through the Barons of  Inchiquin and of Thomond back to Brian Boru and hence to Cormac Cas is a  member of our cluster which is good confirming evidence that Irish Type  III is indeed Dalcassian.  Many Irish Type III surnames have  connections with the O´Briens, such as Bryant, Kennedy, MacNamara,  O´Donnell, Butler, Casey, Hogan and McGrath.  So Cormac Cas´ ancestors,  may very well be the progenitors of this cluster.
http://www.irishtype3dna.org/index.php#origin

Have we finally found our Milesians?
Quote from: Wikipedia
The Lebor Gabála (Book of Invasions — probably first written in the second half of the 11th century AD) describes the origin of the Gaelic people. They descended from Goídel Glas, a Scythian who was present at the fall of the Tower of Babel, and Scota, a daughter of a pharaoh of Egypt[1]. Two branches of their descendants left Egypt and Scythia at the time of the Exodus of Moses, and after a period of wandering the shores of the Mediterranean (including sustained settlements at Miletus and Zancle) arrived in the Iberian Peninsula, where they settled after several battles. One of them, Breogán, built a tower at a place called Brigantia (probably in the coast of Galicia, near A Coruña  (Corunna), which was then "Brigantia" (today Betanzos) and where a  Celtic tribe called "Brigantes" is attested in ancient times — see Tower of Hercules) from the top of which he, or his son Íth, first saw Ireland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_%28Irish%29

There are quite a few R1b1a2 guys in the Galicia project.  It would be nice if more of them deep claded tested.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/GaliciaDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

Oh yeah, almost forgot.  Maybe we should have King Tutankhamun SNP tested for Z253... LOL


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: NealtheRed on October 15, 2011, 10:47:56 AM
A new project has started for Z253+ people.  It is found downstream of L21.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-Z253/default.aspx?section=yresults

My understanding is that it was found in the 1000 Human Genome Project in people of probable Iberian descent.
Quote from: David Reynolds
1000 Genomes samples HG01136 (Colombian in Colombia population) and NA19717 (Mexican-American in Los Angelos population) are:
L21+ Z253+ DF23- M222- DF21- DF5- L96- L159.2-
L226- L513- M37- P314.2- Z254- Z255- L144-

FJames spotted this earlier. An L226+ person has Z253+. L226 is about as Irish as you can get. Its concentrated in Munster and is associated with the Irish Type III/Dalcassian STR signature.

Quote from: Dennis Wright
A Dalcassian (Dál gCais) Signature? There is sufficient evidence now  that this clade is that of the Dalcassian clans of Clare, Limerick and  Tipperary, the principal family of whom are the O´Briens.  I am aware  that an O´Brien who has impeccable pedigree through the Barons of  Inchiquin and of Thomond back to Brian Boru and hence to Cormac Cas is a  member of our cluster which is good confirming evidence that Irish Type  III is indeed Dalcassian.  Many Irish Type III surnames have  connections with the O´Briens, such as Bryant, Kennedy, MacNamara,  O´Donnell, Butler, Casey, Hogan and McGrath.  So Cormac Cas´ ancestors,  may very well be the progenitors of this cluster.
http://www.irishtype3dna.org/index.php#origin

Have we finally found our Milesians?
Quote from: Wikipedia
The Lebor Gabála (Book of Invasions — probably first written in the second half of the 11th century AD) describes the origin of the Gaelic people. They descended from Goídel Glas, a Scythian who was present at the fall of the Tower of Babel, and Scota, a daughter of a pharaoh of Egypt[1]. Two branches of their descendants left Egypt and Scythia at the time of the Exodus of Moses, and after a period of wandering the shores of the Mediterranean (including sustained settlements at Miletus and Zancle) arrived in the Iberian Peninsula, where they settled after several battles. One of them, Breogán, built a tower at a place called Brigantia (probably in the coast of Galicia, near A Coruña  (Corunna), which was then "Brigantia" (today Betanzos) and where a  Celtic tribe called "Brigantes" is attested in ancient times — see Tower of Hercules) from the top of which he, or his son Íth, first saw Ireland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_%28Irish%29

There are quite a few R1b1a2 guys in the Galicia project.  It would be nice if more of them deep claded tested.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/GaliciaDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

Oh yeah, almost forgot.  Maybe we should have King Tutankhamun SNP tested for Z253... LOL

Thank you for this post, Mike. Z253 and L226 just got a lot more interesting!


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: eochaidh on October 15, 2011, 02:51:28 PM
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Although the Milesian story has been accepted by many scholars to have been written to make a false genealogy of the Irish race in order to tie them with a Biblical origin, I believe the myth was based on oral tradition that may have had substance. I also think that island people have an awareness through this oral tradition of where people arrived from.

It would seem to me that early seafarers all along the Bay of Biscay would have intermingled, through trade and exploration with people from the Isles. Even if early seafarers from what is now the coast of Spain and Portugal hugged the coastline they would have put themselves in position to travel from what is now Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.

I have a man, Raymond Keogh, in the Kehoe/Keogh DNA Project, who is L176.2+. Isn't this SNP largely connected with Iberia? He is born, raised and living in Dublin. We also have two P312* members in our Project connected to Connaght. I wonder what their connection is to the Continent.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe L21******** (*********)


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on October 15, 2011, 06:43:09 PM
That is interesting. Maybe I should email our Iberians and ask them to consider testing for Z253.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 16, 2011, 04:54:14 PM
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Although the Milesian story has been accepted by many scholars to have been written to make a false genealogy of the Irish race in order to tie them with a Biblical origin, I believe the myth was based on oral tradition that may have had substance. I also think that island people have an awareness through this oral tradition of where people arrived from.

It would seem to me that early seafarers all along the Bay of Biscay would have intermingled, through trade and exploration with people from the Isles. Even if early seafarers from what is now the coast of Spain and Portugal hugged the coastline they would have put themselves in position to travel from what is now Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.

I have a man, Raymond Keogh, in the Kehoe/Keogh DNA Project, who is L176.2+. Isn't this SNP largely connected with Iberia? He is born, raised and living in Dublin. We also have two P312* members in our Project connected to Connaght. I wonder what their connection is to the Continent.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe L21******** (*********)

Apparently though there is a lot of evidence that Biscay was avoided like the plague as it is very dangerous for sailors.  It is reckoned that in ancient times sailors went directly between Brittany and Galicia in a straight line.  This is shown by the distribution of artefacts as well as the Roman lighthouse in A'Coruna in Galicia which is orientated in such a way that it makes no sense unless the traffic was avoiding Biscay.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: eochaidh on October 16, 2011, 06:20:33 PM
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Although the Milesian story has been accepted by many scholars to have been written to make a false genealogy of the Irish race in order to tie them with a Biblical origin, I believe the myth was based on oral tradition that may have had substance. I also think that island people have an awareness through this oral tradition of where people arrived from.

It would seem to me that early seafarers all along the Bay of Biscay would have intermingled, through trade and exploration with people from the Isles. Even if early seafarers from what is now the coast of Spain and Portugal hugged the coastline they would have put themselves in position to travel from what is now Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.

I have a man, Raymond Keogh, in the Kehoe/Keogh DNA Project, who is L176.2+. Isn't this SNP largely connected with Iberia? He is born, raised and living in Dublin. We also have two P312* members in our Project connected to Connaght. I wonder what their connection is to the Continent.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe L21******** (*********)

Apparently though there is a lot of evidence that Biscay was avoided like the plague as it is very dangerous for sailors.  It is reckoned that in ancient times sailors went directly between Brittany and Galicia in a straight line.  This is shown by the distribution of artefacts as well as the Roman lighthouse in A'Coruna in Galicia which is orientated in such a way that it makes no sense unless the traffic was avoiding Biscay.
That's what I'm saying. I believe seafarers all along, meaning all along, the Bay of Biscay, which would include Galicia and Brittany, would have been familiar with trade routes that included going from Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on October 16, 2011, 07:25:21 PM
If you look at the distribution of L21 in general, it looks like something that was spread by seafarers, from northern Spain to the west coast of Norway. I'm not saying northern Spain was the point of origin; I was just describing the extent of it.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: jonesge on October 18, 2011, 05:03:18 PM
Mike said: "FJames spotted this earlier. An L226+ person has Z253+. L226 is about as Irish as you can get."

I hope to prove Mike correct and there is no Irish in this Welsh Jones.

I am a Welsh Jones L371+

I have a Z253 SNP test in at FTDNA and I am confident (95%) it will be negative.

L371 is the last L21 son subclade being tested prior to Z253 treeing by ISOGG

Here is how the L371 "signature" STR modal values compare to L21 corresponding STR modal values:

STR  / L371 / L21  / GD
DYS448 / 17 / 19  /2
DYS456 / 14 / 16 / 2
DYS450 / 10 / 8  / 2
DYS716 / 22 / 26 / 4
TOTAL GD  /        10

My belief is that Z253+ individuals will be DYS456=15

However, a Z253+ / L226+ person believes this: Both L226+ and L554+ share DYS456<=15

He says: L371's DYS456=14 satisfies that requirement - it just mutated again below DYS456=15.  L21 started with DYS456=16.  Next came DYS456 (16 to 15) which is shared by L226+, L554+ and possibly the ancestor of L371.  L371 later mutated again from DYS456 (15 to 14). Since L371 started with L21 - there has to be some intermediate mutation from DYS456 (16 to 15) prior to the MRCA of L371 of DYS456=14.

He goes on to say: Z253 appears to be a very broad SNP - similar to DF21. Z253 will probably include L555, L371 and many other L21* submissions under Z253. I would not be surprised if yet another son of L21 gets put under Z253 as well. There is probably at least a 50/50 chance of testing positive for Z253 if any submission has 456<=15. It is only a 50/50 chance as it is possible that there may be parallel or backwards mutations of the same marker that would be false hits. A single marker is not a very reliable DNA fingerprint as a DNA fingerprint with four or five mutations.

Can anyone assist here?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Jdean on October 19, 2011, 02:40:15 PM
DYS456 seems a tad unstable to base a theory like this on and almost 40% of the Z253 neg results in the R-L21 project are 15 at that loci.

Either way Z253 + or - it won't stop you being Welsh :)

Iechyd da


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: OConnor on October 19, 2011, 03:24:36 PM
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Although the Milesian story has been accepted by many scholars to have been written to make a false genealogy of the Irish race in order to tie them with a Biblical origin, I believe the myth was based on oral tradition that may have had substance. I also think that island people have an awareness through this oral tradition of where people arrived from.

It would seem to me that early seafarers all along the Bay of Biscay would have intermingled, through trade and exploration with people from the Isles. Even if early seafarers from what is now the coast of Spain and Portugal hugged the coastline they would have put themselves in position to travel from what is now Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.

I have a man, Raymond Keogh, in the Kehoe/Keogh DNA Project, who is L176.2+. Isn't this SNP largely connected with Iberia? He is born, raised and living in Dublin. We also have two P312* members in our Project connected to Connaght. I wonder what their connection is to the Continent.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe L21******** (*********)

But wasn't Ireland supposedly visible from Mel's Tower. If they did invade perhaps they didn't come from Spain but someplace closer? England? Scotland? or Wales?

 


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: eochaidh on October 19, 2011, 04:25:38 PM
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Although the Milesian story has been accepted by many scholars to have been written to make a false genealogy of the Irish race in order to tie them with a Biblical origin, I believe the myth was based on oral tradition that may have had substance. I also think that island people have an awareness through this oral tradition of where people arrived from.

It would seem to me that early seafarers all along the Bay of Biscay would have intermingled, through trade and exploration with people from the Isles. Even if early seafarers from what is now the coast of Spain and Portugal hugged the coastline they would have put themselves in position to travel from what is now Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.

I have a man, Raymond Keogh, in the Kehoe/Keogh DNA Project, who is L176.2+. Isn't this SNP largely connected with Iberia? He is born, raised and living in Dublin. We also have two P312* members in our Project connected to Connaght. I wonder what their connection is to the Continent.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe L21******** (*********)

But wasn't Ireland supposedly visible from Mel's Tower. If they did invade perhaps they didn't come from Spain but someplace closer? England? Scotland? or Wales?

 
Did who invade? I'm just suggesting that since there seems to be a connection between Ireland and Iberia with Z253, that the connection could have been made through trade routes along the Bay of Biscay.

In general, I think that invasion gets all the "press" and trade route interaction gets under played.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 20, 2011, 11:00:00 AM
I think a pattern of a scattering of minor clades in low numbers away from their main concentration is the pattern you would expect from trade and friendly political contact along trade routes.  However, it should become clearer what was going on when each clade has enough identified people to compare variance in each area.  The Irish clade with this marker is not very old if I recall correctly.  So, I suppose the origin point of Z153 could be Ireland, Iberia or somewhere in between.  To early to say. 


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: seferhabahir on October 20, 2011, 06:51:28 PM
DYS456 seems a tad unstable to base a theory like this on and almost 40% of the Z253 neg results in the R-L21 project are 15 at that loci.

I proposed coupling DYS439=11 with DYS456=15 as a "slightly" more stable theory for Z253+ (both L554 and both L226 Z253+ folks to date have these off-modals). There's only one Z253- person in the R-21 project with these values, but that kit #19583 (also in the McWho project), is pretty far off on other markers (such as DYS385=15,15 instead of 11-14). But, you never know. Of course, I'm hoping for an upstream SNP for L583, and Z253 seems as good a shot as any.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 20, 2011, 07:34:45 PM
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Although the Milesian story has been accepted by many scholars to have been written to make a false genealogy of the Irish race in order to tie them with a Biblical origin, I believe the myth was based on oral tradition that may have had substance. I also think that island people have an awareness through this oral tradition of where people arrived from.

It would seem to me that early seafarers all along the Bay of Biscay would have intermingled, through trade and exploration with people from the Isles. Even if early seafarers from what is now the coast of Spain and Portugal hugged the coastline they would have put themselves in position to travel from what is now Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.

I have a man, Raymond Keogh, in the Kehoe/Keogh DNA Project, who is L176.2+. Isn't this SNP largely connected with Iberia? He is born, raised and living in Dublin. We also have two P312* members in our Project connected to Connaght. I wonder what their connection is to the Continent.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe L21******** (*********)

But wasn't Ireland supposedly visible from Mel's Tower. If they did invade perhaps they didn't come from Spain but someplace closer? England? Scotland? or Wales?

 

lord no!  Its nearly 1000 miles from Ireland to Spain.  Its not visible. 


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: OConnor on October 20, 2011, 10:05:35 PM
Milesians..."arrived in the Iberian Peninsula, where they settled after several battles. One of them, Breogán, built a tower at a place called Brigantia (probably in the coast of Galicia, near A Coruña (Corunna), which was then "Brigantia" (today Betanzos) and where a Celtic tribe called "Brigantes" is attested in ancient times — see Tower of Hercules) from the top of which he, or his son Íth, first saw Ireland" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_(Irish)




Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: seferhabahir on October 22, 2011, 08:47:53 PM
I proposed coupling DYS439=11 with DYS456=15 as a "slightly" more stable theory for Z253+ (both L554 and both L226 Z253+ folks to date have these off-modals). There's only one Z253- person in the R-21 project with these values, but that kit #19583 (also in the McWho project), is pretty far off on other markers (such as DYS385=15,15 instead of 11-14). But, you never know. Of course, I'm hoping for an upstream SNP for L583, and Z253 seems as good a shot as any.

I'm taking bets the Baltic Cluster ends up under Z253. I just took another glance at the R-L21 tree from June 19, 2011, and three groups that branch off very close together are Irish Type III, 9919-A#1, and 1111EE. Bonham's are also close by, so maybe these are all old(ish) branches. You never know.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 23, 2011, 05:25:40 PM
Milesians..."arrived in the Iberian Peninsula, where they settled after several battles. One of them, Breogán, built a tower at a place called Brigantia (probably in the coast of Galicia, near A Coruña (Corunna), which was then "Brigantia" (today Betanzos) and where a Celtic tribe called "Brigantes" is attested in ancient times — see Tower of Hercules) from the top of which he, or his son Íth, first saw Ireland" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_(Irish)




I know the myth but Ireland is not visible from there.  I have actually visited the tower in A'Coruna which is in fact a Roman light house called the tower of Hercules http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Hercules and you can see nothing but open sea from it.  Its also nowhere near enough old to have been around at the time of the Celtic settlement of Ireland. Nice place though.  


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: OConnor on October 25, 2011, 04:47:32 AM
my thought was..if they saw Ireland from a tower, the tower must have been closer than Spain.

(Perhaps it is more like a fairy tale.)


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mark Jost on October 25, 2011, 10:24:34 AM
Even if you could stand on the top of the tower you couldnt see past 5.5 Km's to the horizion. Ireland is over 500 miles away from the North coast of Spain?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 25, 2011, 02:56:00 PM
Even if you could stand on the top of the tower you couldnt see past 5.5 Km's to the horizion. Ireland is over 500 miles away from the North coast of Spain?

I checked.  The shortest distance between Ireland and the continent is SE point of Ireland to somewhere like Brest in Brittany.  Its around 270 miles.  The distance between Cork in SW Ireland and Galicia in NW Spain is around 600 miles.  To put it into perspective, NE Ireland is about 30 miles from SW Scotland.  The south end of the Mull of Kintrye in Scotland is very clear (even some buildings can vaguely be seen) from the coast of north-east Antrim.  You can see Arran in Scotland and sometimes Jura and other hebridean islands from north Antrim on cold clear days.  From south Antrim and country Down the view to the Scottish borders area (Galloway) and Cumbria and the Isle of Man is sometimes visible.  On occasion you can see Wales, all because they are fairly high.  I dont think England can be seen from Ireland except Cumbria and adjacent as it is too low. 


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Jdean on October 25, 2011, 03:05:58 PM
Even if you could stand on the top of the tower you couldnt see past 5.5 Km's to the horizion. Ireland is over 500 miles away from the North coast of Spain?


Being a tad pedantic here but it's definitely possible to see things further than 5.5 km out to sea. You can see France from Dover and Wales from N. Devon for instance, without the aid of a tower :)


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: OConnor on October 25, 2011, 03:12:02 PM
you may see high points of land..but not the beach.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: seferhabahir on October 26, 2011, 01:33:55 AM
There is another new Z253+ that has shown up...

Kit #92957 - Thomas Johnson 1740-1790 Gainsboro England. Seems pretty far off from the L226 and L554 Z253+ positives, and even larger GD than me for some of them. Also has DYS439=12. Also not known whether L226+ or L554+ yet, and not in a known cluster.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: seferhabahir on October 26, 2011, 02:21:41 AM
There is another new Z253+ that has shown up...

Kit #92957 - Thomas Johnson 1740-1790 Gainsboro England. Seems pretty far off from the L226 and L554 Z253+ positives, and even larger GD than me for some of them. Also has DYS439=12. Also not known whether L226+ or L554+ yet, and not in a known cluster.

Some other differences:

DYS385a,b =11,11 (all others so far have 11-14)
DYS19=15 (all others so far have 14)
DYS438=13 (all others so far have 12)
DYS570=18 (all others so far have 17)
DYS590=9 (all others so far have 8)
DYS425=null (all others so far have 12)
DYS487=12 (all others so far have 13 or 14)


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on October 26, 2011, 07:08:19 PM
I have three of them (including Johnson) in the new R-Z253 category at the R-L21 Plus Project thus far. There may be others I have missed. I'll have to check.

Are we certain L226 is downstream of Z253?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: saphorr on October 26, 2011, 07:30:40 PM
Are we certain L226 is downstream of Z253?

Well, Brown (kit 82328) and Casey (kit 77349) are both Z253+ and L226+.

Pike (kit 23996), Ramsey (kit N16295), and Stabley (kit 149770) are Z253+ and L226-.

Provided both Z253 and L226 are stable, that's enough evidence for me at least.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on October 26, 2011, 07:35:00 PM
Are we certain L226 is downstream of Z253?

Well, Brown (kit 82328) and Casey (kit 77349) are both Z253+ and L226+.

Pike (kit 23996), Ramsey (kit N16295), and Stabley (kit 149770) are Z253+ and L226-.

Provided both Z253 and L226 are stable, that's enough evidence for me at least.

Thanks for the info. Sounds good.

Ramsey and Stabley I already had in the R-Z253 category. I'll go add Pike right now.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on October 26, 2011, 07:43:11 PM
Done. I included Johnson in the L226- bunch. He just does not have the haplotype to be L226+.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: saphorr on October 26, 2011, 07:57:44 PM
Thanks for the info. Sounds good.

Ramsey and Stabley I already had in the R-Z253 category. I'll go add Pike right now.

Just to note Pike is the guy in whose sample L554 was found, that may be why he wasn't originally in your R-Z253 category.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on October 26, 2011, 08:10:18 PM
Thanks for the info. Sounds good.

Ramsey and Stabley I already had in the R-Z253 category. I'll go add Pike right now.

Just to note Pike is the guy in whose sample L554 was found, that may be why he wasn't originally in your R-Z253 category.

I just created the category this evening when I saw a couple of positive results.

I'm a little hesitant to create new categories until I see the SNPs are solid. The reason I asked about Z253 and L226 is because of the error concerning Z255 and L144. I had heard here in this forum that L144 was downstream of Z255, so I went ahead and rearranged categories and noted that L144 was a subclade of Z255 on the heading for its category. As it turned out, that was not the case. I wanted to be sure I wasn't making the same mistake with Z253 and L226.

Things are getting a bit hectic with all the new SNPs being discovered, each with its own project. Pretty soon the R-L21 Plus Project may become obsolete . . . or else impossibly complex and a nuisance to maintain.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: seferhabahir on October 26, 2011, 09:30:54 PM
Done. I included Johnson in the L226- bunch. He just does not have the haplotype to be L226+.

And I guess I don't have the right haplotype to be Z253+. My negative Z253- result just showed up. The suspense was fun while it lasted.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians ... Not WELSH ... L371s are Z253-
Post by: jonesge on October 27, 2011, 02:19:15 PM
L371+ is Z253-  ... the test results just came in this morning.

And, I was right predicting I would be NEGATIVE .... 5 for 5 on my SNP predictions.

Here's all my L371 Welsh flavored SNP results: L371+ Z253- L554- DF5- DF21-

So, what's the consensus ... this L371 Welshman Jones has little or no Iberian male blood in my ancestors.

What do you think .... more Norman or Viking type? Maybe some Germanic?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on October 27, 2011, 07:15:31 PM
Celtic very likely.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on November 16, 2011, 08:37:38 PM
R-Z253 (L226-) picked up a Swiss (Gerber) and a Norwegian (Falch) this evening.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 18, 2011, 12:47:37 AM
R-Z253 (L226-) picked up a Swiss (Gerber) and a Norwegian (Falch) this evening.
Wow, the early researchers found it in two people of Iberian descent.. at least they think.

Sounds like shades of Z196*, L176.2* .... scattered all over the place.

Early L21 and his P312 brothers are beginning to look like Beaker movements map with arrows going all over the place.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Heber on November 18, 2011, 02:49:07 AM
This would appear to support Professor Barry Cunliffe's theory, Celtic from the West.
"Celtic probably evolved in the Atlantic Zone during the Bronze Age (Cunliffe 2008, 258). this Celticization from the West proposal contrasts with the more widely familiar account of Celtic origins, in which the core narrative is tightly entwined with La Tene and Halstatt cultures or Iron Age west central Europe."
Moffat and Wilson state: "The commercial links along the Atlantic littoral flourished between 1300 BC and 600 BC. Goods were fed in and out of the network  as they travelled up and down river from the continental interior. Archealogists have found ample evidence of a complex system of exchange that operated for several centuries".
Around the middle of the first millinium, when the weather changed and these trade routes declined Halstatt and later La Tene emerged.
"DNA sampling reinforces an intertwined sense of two distinct seaborne trading networks in Britain and Ireland. In the west, the emphatic presence of S145 (L21) appears to mirror mercantile contact. Distinctive pots known as maritime bell beakers were first made in the region around the River Tagus in Portugal and the tradition of bows and arrows in graves may also have originated there. By 2,500 BC, this cultural package had spread north to the Morbihan area of southern Brittany.
"Now it appears that S145 also travelled these trading routes. The marker probably originated in southern France or northern Iberia and people carrying it came to Ireland and western Scotland. This was not a wave of migration but a series of small movements over time, probably in the millennium between 2,500 BC and 1,500 BC."


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on November 18, 2011, 02:57:48 PM
This would appear to support Professor Barry Cunliffe's theory, Celtic from the West.
"Celtic probably evolved in the Atlantic Zone during the Bronze Age (Cunliffe 2008, 258). this Celticization from the West proposal contrasts with the more widely familiar account of Celtic origins, in which the core narrative is tightly entwined with La Tene and Halstatt cultures or Iron Age west central Europe."
Moffat and Wilson state: "The commercial links along the Atlantic littoral flourished between 1300 BC and 600 BC. Goods were fed in and out of the network  as they travelled up and down river from the continental interior. Archealogists have found ample evidence of a complex system of exchange that operated for several centuries".
Around the middle of the first millinium, when the weather changed and these trade routes declined Halstatt and later La Tene emerged.
"DNA sampling reinforces an intertwined sense of two distinct seaborne trading networks in Britain and Ireland. In the west, the emphatic presence of S145 (L21) appears to mirror mercantile contact. Distinctive pots known as maritime bell beakers were first made in the region around the River Tagus in Portugal and the tradition of bows and arrows in graves may also have originated there. By 2,500 BC, this cultural package had spread north to the Morbihan area of southern Brittany.
"Now it appears that S145 also travelled these trading routes. The marker probably originated in southern France or northern Iberia and people carrying it came to Ireland and western Scotland. This was not a wave of migration but a series of small movements over time, probably in the millennium between 2,500 BC and 1,500 BC."


Problem with this theory is that there is not much L21 in Atlantic Iberia and does a fair old bit of it not belong to 2 fairly late historic period clusters?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on November 18, 2011, 02:59:20 PM
R-Z253 (L226-) picked up a Swiss (Gerber) and a Norwegian (Falch) this evening.
Wow, the early researchers found it in two people of Iberian descent.. at least they think.

Sounds like shades of Z196*, L176.2* .... scattered all over the place.

Early L21 and his P312 brothers are beginning to look like Beaker movements map with arrows going all over the place.

Yes the scattering effect looks more like something like that than a neat wave like movement.  The beakers are back in pole position...


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Heber on November 18, 2011, 05:01:52 PM
This would appear to support Professor Barry Cunliffe's theory, Celtic from the West.
"Celtic probably evolved in the Atlantic Zone during the Bronze Age (Cunliffe 2008, 258). this Celticization from the West proposal contrasts with the more widely familiar account of Celtic origins, in which the core narrative is tightly entwined with La Tene and Halstatt cultures or Iron Age west central Europe."
Moffat and Wilson state: "The commercial links along the Atlantic littoral flourished between 1300 BC and 600 BC. Goods were fed in and out of the network  as they travelled up and down river from the continental interior. Archealogists have found ample evidence of a complex system of exchange that operated for several centuries".
Around the middle of the first millinium, when the weather changed and these trade routes declined Halstatt and later La Tene emerged.
"DNA sampling reinforces an intertwined sense of two distinct seaborne trading networks in Britain and Ireland. In the west, the emphatic presence of S145 (L21) appears to mirror mercantile contact. Distinctive pots known as maritime bell beakers were first made in the region around the River Tagus in Portugal and the tradition of bows and arrows in graves may also have originated there. By 2,500 BC, this cultural package had spread north to the Morbihan area of southern Brittany.
"Now it appears that S145 also travelled these trading routes. The marker probably originated in southern France or northern Iberia and people carrying it came to Ireland and western Scotland. This was not a wave of migration but a series of small movements over time, probably in the millennium between 2,500 BC and 1,500 BC."


Problem with this theory is that there is not much L21 in Atlantic Iberia and does a fair old bit of it not belong to 2 fairly late historic period clusters?

Alan,
I agree. However S116 (P312), the parent of S145 (L21) and S116*, has its hotspot in Iberia.
http://m.box.com/view_shared/hxp8ie25yv
S116 and S145 apparently did not hang around too long on the Atlantic facade before migrating to the Isles and expanding as M222 and other sub clades. I am very interested in the discovery of so many new sub clades of L21. Who knows where they will lead us. However the journey will be fascinating.
As you say the Bell Beakers are in pole position ...


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on November 18, 2011, 05:46:44 PM
This would appear to support Professor Barry Cunliffe's theory, Celtic from the West.
"Celtic probably evolved in the Atlantic Zone during the Bronze Age (Cunliffe 2008, 258). this Celticization from the West proposal contrasts with the more widely familiar account of Celtic origins, in which the core narrative is tightly entwined with La Tene and Halstatt cultures or Iron Age west central Europe."
Moffat and Wilson state: "The commercial links along the Atlantic littoral flourished between 1300 BC and 600 BC. Goods were fed in and out of the network  as they travelled up and down river from the continental interior. Archealogists have found ample evidence of a complex system of exchange that operated for several centuries".
Around the middle of the first millinium, when the weather changed and these trade routes declined Halstatt and later La Tene emerged.
"DNA sampling reinforces an intertwined sense of two distinct seaborne trading networks in Britain and Ireland. In the west, the emphatic presence of S145 (L21) appears to mirror mercantile contact. Distinctive pots known as maritime bell beakers were first made in the region around the River Tagus in Portugal and the tradition of bows and arrows in graves may also have originated there. By 2,500 BC, this cultural package had spread north to the Morbihan area of southern Brittany.
"Now it appears that S145 also travelled these trading routes. The marker probably originated in southern France or northern Iberia and people carrying it came to Ireland and western Scotland. This was not a wave of migration but a series of small movements over time, probably in the millennium between 2,500 BC and 1,500 BC."


Problem with this theory is that there is not much L21 in Atlantic Iberia and does a fair old bit of it not belong to 2 fairly late historic period clusters?

Alan,
I agree. However S116 (P312), the parent of S145 (L21) and S116*, has its hotspot in Iberia.
http://m.box.com/view_shared/hxp8ie25yv
S116 and S145 apparently did not hang around too long on the Atlantic facade before migrating to the Isles and expanding as M222 and other sub clades. I am very interested in the discovery of so many new sub clades of L21. Who knows where they will lead us. However the journey will be fascinating.
As you say the Bell Beakers are in pole position ...

It does remain to be seem what P312* is ancestral to L21.  A lot of it is being redefined by intervening SNPs like Z196 that rule out former P312* being an ancestor of L21. The greatest hope for nailing this question will be an SNP between P312 and L21.  If one is ever found then the present P312* that has it will be the best indication of the immediate ancestor of L21.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 20, 2011, 12:27:24 AM
... However S116 (P312), the parent of S145 (L21) and S116*, has its hotspot in Iberia.
http://m.box.com/view_shared/hxp8ie25yv     ....

Long ago, an P312(S116)+ L21(S145)- man somewhere had an L21+ son.  However, today's P312* people from Iberia are not necessarily of older sublcades of P312 than L21.   Many are probably of Z196, but some may be of some other unidentified SNPs. That doesn't mean they are old though.

Modern P312* is just a paragroup, not a single old clade.  For that matter, U152 is older than P312*.  U152 is the oldest subclade of P312 so far. It is rare in Iberia, but common in the Rhine Valley and into Northern Italy (Cisalpine Gaul.)

I'm not sure that hotspots of high frequency are that important anyway.  I know a very, very (probable) hotspot of L21. That doesn't mean it is the origin of L21 if it is O'Neil, Nebraska.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Heber on November 20, 2011, 07:27:53 PM
Mike,
If we look at the major P312 sub clades.
L21 is mainly Atlantic,  Isles based and especially Ireland.
I don't know a lot about U152, as it is not in my defining mutations, although I understand it is more central and could be Rhine, Alpine, Italy based possibly including coastal hopping maritime agriculturists.
Z196 appears to be N-S, Isles - Iberia based and especially Isles.
L238 is possibly Atlantic Scandanavian and DF19 initiially Isles and some Continental.

This appears to me to match Bell Beaker patterns.
Moffat and Wilson appear to come to the same conclusion, although I have not seen published data on which the book is based. I have little confidence in STR age estimates and variance as they are so unpredictable.
Our best chance of understanding all this is to wait until the P312 tree becomes more defined with new SNPs and possibly benchmarking these SNPs against ancient DNA.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Heber on November 20, 2011, 09:38:02 PM
Milesians..."arrived in the Iberian Peninsula, where they settled after several battles. One of them, Breogán, built a tower at a place called Brigantia (probably in the coast of Galicia, near A Coruña (Corunna), which was then "Brigantia" (today Betanzos) and where a Celtic tribe called "Brigantes" is attested in ancient times — see Tower of Hercules) from the top of which he, or his son Íth, first saw Ireland" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_(Irish)




I know the myth but Ireland is not visible from there.  I have actually visited the tower in A'Coruna which is in fact a Roman light house called the tower of Hercules http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Hercules and you can see nothing but open sea from it.  Its also nowhere near enough old to have been around at the time of the Celtic settlement of Ireland. Nice place though.  

"The Tower of Brigantia is the only lighthouse in the world with two thousand years in operation. The tower existed in Celtic times, possibly as a watchtower."

"In the Celtic religion, Brigantia was the name of an important goddess. The word [Briga-] meant "high" or "holy" in the ancient Celtic language. Besides the Galician realm of Brigantium, there were also two other kingdoms of Brigantia in Ireland and Britain."

"Maritime trade and cultural relations were intense in Atlantic Europe since the Bronze Age and the Galician city of Brigantia was a major trading port with the British Isles. It is likely that the mouth of the estuary leading to the city of Brigantia had several small watchtowers to alert the oppidum or city in case of danger. One of those watchtowers --the most strategic of them all, overlooking the estuary and the open seas-- could have been replaced by the Farum Brigantium lighthouse, which today is known as Tower of Hercules."
"The new Castilian legend told that Greek hero Hercules fought for three days against a Trojan giant called Gerion, whom he eventually defeated. To celebrate his victory, Hercules built a tower and brought a group of people to live in the city. The Castilian tale explains that those settlers were brought from Galatia, in Anatolia, and "that's why the land became known as Galizia".

"In December 1601 the Irish lost the Battle of Kinsale against England and subsequently many Gaelic earls and their families decided to leave the country to avoid reprisals. Hundreds of Irish men, women and children arrived to Corunna and many of them decided to stay forever in Galicia, which reminded them strongly of home."

http://www.galicianflag.com/county/corunna.htm#timeline

Interesting stories of migrations from Anatolia to Northern Iberia to Ireland and the return of the last Celtic chiefs to the point of departure. Of course Ireland is not visible from the tower. However poetic licence can be invoked.








Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: OConnor on November 21, 2011, 05:52:30 AM
Through faith paople can make most anything fit.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 21, 2011, 01:04:26 PM
Mike,
If we look at the major P312 sub clades.....
This appears to me to match Bell Beaker patterns.
I agree but my caveat is that the Bell Beaker patterns almost appear like a bowl of spaghetti thrown on Europe. In other words, I'm not sure that its pattern is that conclusive of anything other than its tenacles stretch all over.

.... I have little confidence in STR age estimates and variance as they are so unpredictable.
Our best chance of understanding all this is to wait until the P312 tree becomes more defined with new SNPs and possibly benchmarking these SNPs against ancient DNA.
Even if you don't want to look at STR age estimates, you should consider looking at STR diversity. There is no doubt that mutations accumulate with time, whether it is a straight line or not. Even Busby used STR diversity in the core argument of their analysis.

Mutation rates are the more controversial subject, I think. There are wide degrees of swing between two different camps on this. STR diversity numbers are not affected by the mutation rate arguments.

SNPs and STRs are NOT items to consider in isolation. It is in fact the greater resolution of SNP that will help refine STR variance estimations. The SNPs help put "fences" around the right groups of people to smaller and smaller groups. Ken Nordtvedt is using nested variance in his latest methodology.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Heber on November 22, 2011, 05:53:36 PM
Mike,
Thank you for your clarification. Perhaps I should have said Maritime Bell Beaker. I agree that progress depends on a mixture of SNPs and STRs. At the current rate of discovery of new SNPs, I hope that that will be soon. I read somewhere that we could expect full genome sequencing (3B base pairs) with full Y, MtDNA and X within two years at a price point about $500. 23andme started offering full Exome (50 M base pairs for health) this week at $999.
Denmark has launched the 1% (of population) genome project, the UK has the 10,000 genome project and Ireland has launched the Ireland DNA Atlas project. These projects are primarily designed to yield health benefits, but a by product will be a better understanding of ancestry and population genetics.
When, I firsted tested with National Geographic over 5 years ago for 12 STRs none of this would have seemed possible.
Indeed even more improbable was someone suggesting I was descended from a Bell Beaker.:).


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 04, 2011, 12:42:08 AM
Z253xL226 is becoming more important to helping understand L21.  It started out as being a couple of guys of Spanish descent in the HG 1000 Project but now includes people from Switzerland and Norway ... a long way from the Dalcassian Irish TIII/L226 folks.

The Swiss fellow is close to the Irish TIV/Continental haplotype. I'm trying to get one of those guys to test for Z253.

I can find no single common off-modal marker for Z253. It looks to be closer in age to L21 than to L226.

f92957____ Johnson__________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1410________ GUXTG___ England, East Midlands, Lincolnshire, West Lindsey, Gainsborough
f86680____ McConnell________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1410________ HD5D5___ Ireland, Ulster
f19695____ McQuilkan________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1410________ MN4KA___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyllshire, Kintyre, Clachan
f90442____ Law______________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1518________ Z3WVN___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Ayrshire
f149770___ zzzUnkName_______________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-1518________ 3QR7V___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Renfrewshire, Grennock
f162176___ Falch(Ølfernes)__________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned__ 5G4G5___ Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes
fE4785____ Gerber___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned__ GVU3M___ Switzerland, Bern, Oberaargau, Herzogenbuchsee
fN85107___ Hockings_________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned__ A5R59___ England, London
f120936___ Merry____________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned__ U38VD___ England, South East, Oxfordshire, Eynsham
fN16295___ Ramsey___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned__ KU83A___ Ireland, Ulster
f81795____ Whitehead________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned__ ___ England
fN26398___ Canady___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ Z253-1117_______ JEMDX___ zzzUnkOrigin
f99622____ Brown____________________ R-L21/Z253/L554______________ zzUnassigned____ QEAEM___ Ireland
f23996____ Pike_____________________ R-L21/Z253/L554______________ zzUnassigned____ KNA9C___ England, South West, Dorset, Poole



Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on December 04, 2011, 07:47:31 AM
Z253xL226 is becoming more important to helping understand L21.  It started out as being a couple of guys of Spanish descent in the HG 1000 Project but now includes people from Switzerland and Norway ... a long way from the Dalcassian Irish TIII/L226 folks.

The Swiss fellow is close to the Irish TIV/Continental haplotype. I'm trying to get one of those guys to test for Z253.

I can find no single common off-modal marker for Z253. It looks to be closer in age to L21 than to L226.

f92957____ Johnson__________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1410________ GUXTG___ England, East Midlands, Lincolnshire, West Lindsey, Gainsborough
f86680____ McConnell________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1410________ HD5D5___ Ireland, Ulster
f19695____ McQuilkan________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1410________ MN4KA___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyllshire, Kintyre, Clachan
f90442____ Law______________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1518________ Z3WVN___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Ayrshire
f149770___ zzzUnkName_______________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-1518________ 3QR7V___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Renfrewshire, Grennock
f162176___ Falch(Ølfernes)__________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned__ 5G4G5___ Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes
fE4785____ Gerber___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned__ GVU3M___ Switzerland, Bern, Oberaargau, Herzogenbuchsee
fN85107___ Hockings_________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned__ A5R59___ England, London
f120936___ Merry____________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned__ U38VD___ England, South East, Oxfordshire, Eynsham
fN16295___ Ramsey___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned__ KU83A___ Ireland, Ulster
f81795____ Whitehead________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned__ ___ England
fN26398___ Canady___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ Z253-1117_______ JEMDX___ zzzUnkOrigin
f99622____ Brown____________________ R-L21/Z253/L554______________ zzUnassigned____ QEAEM___ Ireland
f23996____ Pike_____________________ R-L21/Z253/L554______________ zzUnassigned____ KNA9C___ England, South West, Dorset, Poole



I wish we could get some more continentals to test for it, and I wish we could get hold of those Iberian guys who tested Z253+.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on December 04, 2011, 08:18:07 AM
Okay. I just addressed bulk emails from the R-L21 Plus Project to the members of the Spain, Portugal, and New World: Spanish or Portuguese Surname categories asking them to test for Z253.

Hopefully, the emails won't go out to all the members of the project, but just to the members of the categories listed above. (We're supposed to have the capability to limit bulk emails by category now, but we'll see.)

Bulk emails to the entire project always seem to result in a flood of emails in my Inbox, so I try not to send too many of them.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on December 04, 2011, 11:02:54 AM
Z253xL226 is becoming more important to helping understand L21.  It started out as being a couple of guys of Spanish descent in the HG 1000 Project but now includes people from Switzerland and Norway ... a long way from the Dalcassian Irish TIII/L226 folks.

The Swiss fellow is close to the Irish TIV/Continental haplotype. I'm trying to get one of those guys to test for Z253.

I can find no single common off-modal marker for Z253. It looks to be closer in age to L21 than to L226.

f92957____ Johnson__________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1410________ GUXTG___ England, East Midlands, Lincolnshire, West Lindsey, Gainsborough
f86680____ McConnell________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1410________ HD5D5___ Ireland, Ulster
f19695____ McQuilkan________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1410________ MN4KA___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyllshire, Kintyre, Clachan
f90442____ Law______________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1518________ Z3WVN___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Ayrshire
f149770___ zzzUnkName_______________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-1518________ 3QR7V___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Renfrewshire, Grennock
f162176___ Falch(Ølfernes)__________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned__ 5G4G5___ Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes
fE4785____ Gerber___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned__ GVU3M___ Switzerland, Bern, Oberaargau, Herzogenbuchsee
fN85107___ Hockings_________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned__ A5R59___ England, London
f120936___ Merry____________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned__ U38VD___ England, South East, Oxfordshire, Eynsham
fN16295___ Ramsey___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned__ KU83A___ Ireland, Ulster
f81795____ Whitehead________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned__ ___ England
fN26398___ Canady___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ Z253-1117_______ JEMDX___ zzzUnkOrigin
f99622____ Brown____________________ R-L21/Z253/L554______________ zzUnassigned____ QEAEM___ Ireland
f23996____ Pike_____________________ R-L21/Z253/L554______________ zzUnassigned____ KNA9C___ England, South West, Dorset, Poole



What is striking about that list is a total lack of native Irish names.  The McQuilan surname is Irish but of Welsh-Norman origins while McConnel in Ulster is a version of McDonald of Scottish origins. 


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on December 04, 2011, 08:38:17 PM
FTDNA sent out the bulk emails sooner than I expected. Already a couple of our members of Spanish descent have ordered Z253.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 05, 2011, 10:41:21 AM
FTDNA sent out the bulk emails sooner than I expected. Already a couple of our members of Spanish descent have ordered Z253.
Cool. Great work!
I've been in contact with the Irish Type IV/Cont web site contact as Gerber is close to fitting within those guys.  I think we'll see an order or two from these guys.
BTW, Gerber is from Switzerland. I'm jumping the gun a bit here, but if Irish Type IV came out Z253+ and it is supposed to have a "continental" scattering I wonder if this is related to La Tene?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: A.D. on December 05, 2011, 12:47:12 PM
On the crossing from Belfast to Stranrare The is a large peak rising from the water in the center of the bay it's quite symmetrical may be this or something like it was the  tower of Brogan and was passed down and elaborated over time. You could only guess how old the origins are.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: A.D. on December 05, 2011, 02:04:30 PM
I'm putting this up just in case anyone's interested.
there have been quite a few studies done on the origins as Irish (Celtic ) music.
The links involved  were Coptic Christians who may have influenced church music which was probably linked to oral tradition. Shanels solo performance Irish music thought to be the oldest is very middle Eastern/N African sounding. Pentatonic based it also has a vocal swell technique that is only found in Arab and N.African music. Some of the Hymn's of Stowaway island a Gaelic speaking Protestant community are remarkably similar. They avoided all Renaissance and Reformation changes. In fact to my ears sound more middle Eastern/N.African. The hermit monk tradition is thought to be of Coptic christian origin. The boat building and sail making  methods  of W Ireland seem to have the same origins as the music as does the 3 dot patter  as depicted on garments tattooing and the style of head shaving. There was a load more I can't recall. The point is that there are Mediterranean influence is religious , musical, oral and literal. The fact that they are in ares that have been so important in the development of cultural identity. It has also been put that Coptic spoke used a language that was close or a descendant of ancient Egyptian.  This could be where the Miles/Scotia idea came from. The influence of the church in Ireland can be over estimated (the same can be said for Western art music).  It is probable that the  Mediterranean and biblical places were inserted  into 'Celtic' legends before they were written down . The Hermit monks would have left little or no DNA but an overwhelming cultural presence.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on December 05, 2011, 08:24:07 PM
FTDNA sent out the bulk emails sooner than I expected. Already a couple of our members of Spanish descent have ordered Z253.
Cool. Great work!
I've been in contact with the Irish Type IV/Cont web site contact as Gerber is close to fitting within those guys.  I think we'll see an order or two from these guys.
BTW, Gerber is from Switzerland. I'm jumping the gun a bit here, but if Irish Type IV came out Z253+ and it is supposed to have a "continental" scattering I wonder if this is related to La Tene?

That's a good question.

A few more of our Iberian guys have ordered Z253 since my last post.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Heber on December 13, 2011, 12:45:23 PM
The hermit monk tradition is thought to be of Coptic christian origin.

"The influence of Asia Minor and of Egypt came to Ireland through Gaul, as well as through the trading routes by sea.  The Irish tribal and clan system seems to have found an affinity with the monasticism of Egypt.  A marked similarity between the monastic tradition in Egypt and in Ireland was that the “monastery” consisted of a number of dwellings, mainly huts, which both clerical and lay monks lived. The lay monks did not live an ascetic lifestyle, many of whom were married and had families.  The outlook was similar in that the monks from both Egypt and in Ireland were more like missionaries, rather than priests."

"The monks from these numerous Irish schools and monasteries travelled across the seas to the mainland and founded further monasteries.  This exodus of monks was to encourage learning in a world which was mostly being overrun by barbaric hoards, displaying little interest in preserving learning, philosophy, or of history.  Hence the term, the Dark Ages, was born to describe these times.  These missionary monks travelled far and wide, establishing monasteries as far afield as Switzerland, and northern and southern Italy.  Learning and teaching seem to have taken priority over and above the need to convert.  This dogma appears to have been to encourage all manner of ideology and theology.  Unlike the Roman Church, which had proscribed various books, a bar on writings and exclusion of apocryphal texts deemed heretical, the Celtic Church seems to have embraced these ideas, and allowed various aspects thereof to become integral to their teaching."

"There seems to have been a direct exchange between Egypt and Ireland, with mention of monks from Egypt being in Ireland and vice versa.  A guidebook written for Irish monks travelling to Egypt, detailing the Pyramids, and for visiting the desert fathers, was written, and a copy survives to this day, located in the Bibliotheque Nationale, in Paris.  Egypt became a centre for pilgrimage by the Irish monks, with one of the latest records we have of such a "pilgrimage" having been made in the thirteenth century.  Numerous examples of early Egyptian Christian/Coptic art, symbolism, and motifs would appear to have found their way into that of the Celtic Church.  Illuminated manuscripts such as the Lindisfarne gospels, the books of Kells and of Deer, all have design work of a distinctly Eastern influence and pattern, as opposed to that of a Roman design, in their ornamentation.  The same is true for a number of the stone crosses found in Ireland.  Coptic textual forms are to be found in the book of Dimma. "

I have visited many of these monastic centres on the continent. Some evolved into huge monastic schools with thousands of students. Others became the embryonic centres of new towns such as Koln, Wurzburg, Salzburg, St Gallen, Bobbio etc. This infrastructure of Celtic monastic settlements thrived during the 1,000 year Holy Roman Empire, 800 - 1,800.




Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: A.D. on December 13, 2011, 03:12:44 PM
There has been a lot of talk about Christianity in Ireland  coming before the St Padriac  era (by this I mean what you have described) Why I mentioned music is because  there are cretin features that that do not occur in non coastal Europe. There is a long history of story/poetry/song. The Iliad is thought to have such origins. There is a Greek influence parts of the bible have the same phrases. This gets really complicated I got the music idea but a lot of the literature and history I went a bit beyond me e.g. the ancient grammar.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: MHammers on December 14, 2011, 10:37:10 AM
I recieved my Z253+ this morning.  Hopefully, some more will come in today.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 14, 2011, 02:38:26 PM
I recieved my Z253+ this morning.  Hopefully, some more will come in today.
Congratulations!
It looks like you are negative for L226.  Are you testing for L554?

I think an important guy to watch is f124852 Peter Leonard, b.1868, Co. Sligo, Connacht, Ireland. he's Irish TIV/Cont and he is supposedly ordering Z253.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: MHammers on December 14, 2011, 04:41:51 PM
Congratulations!
It looks like you are negative for L226.  Are you testing for L554?

I think an important guy to watch is f124852 Peter Leonard, b.1868, Co. Sligo, Connacht, Ireland. he's Irish TIV/Cont and he is supposedly ordering Z253.

Yes, my curiousity will keep reminding me.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on December 14, 2011, 08:27:53 PM
You're in the R-Z253 (L226-) category at the R-L21 Plus Project now.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on December 14, 2011, 08:39:03 PM
The hermit monk tradition is thought to be of Coptic christian origin.

"The influence of Asia Minor and of Egypt came to Ireland through Gaul, as well as through the trading routes by sea.  The Irish tribal and clan system seems to have found an affinity with the monasticism of Egypt.  A marked similarity between the monastic tradition in Egypt and in Ireland was that the “monastery” consisted of a number of dwellings, mainly huts, which both clerical and lay monks lived. The lay monks did not live an ascetic lifestyle, many of whom were married and had families.  The outlook was similar in that the monks from both Egypt and in Ireland were more like missionaries, rather than priests."

"The monks from these numerous Irish schools and monasteries travelled across the seas to the mainland and founded further monasteries.  This exodus of monks was to encourage learning in a world which was mostly being overrun by barbaric hoards, displaying little interest in preserving learning, philosophy, or of history.  Hence the term, the Dark Ages, was born to describe these times.  These missionary monks travelled far and wide, establishing monasteries as far afield as Switzerland, and northern and southern Italy.  Learning and teaching seem to have taken priority over and above the need to convert.  This dogma appears to have been to encourage all manner of ideology and theology.  Unlike the Roman Church, which had proscribed various books, a bar on writings and exclusion of apocryphal texts deemed heretical, the Celtic Church seems to have embraced these ideas, and allowed various aspects thereof to become integral to their teaching."

"There seems to have been a direct exchange between Egypt and Ireland, with mention of monks from Egypt being in Ireland and vice versa.  A guidebook written for Irish monks travelling to Egypt, detailing the Pyramids, and for visiting the desert fathers, was written, and a copy survives to this day, located in the Bibliotheque Nationale, in Paris.  Egypt became a centre for pilgrimage by the Irish monks, with one of the latest records we have of such a "pilgrimage" having been made in the thirteenth century.  Numerous examples of early Egyptian Christian/Coptic art, symbolism, and motifs would appear to have found their way into that of the Celtic Church.  Illuminated manuscripts such as the Lindisfarne gospels, the books of Kells and of Deer, all have design work of a distinctly Eastern influence and pattern, as opposed to that of a Roman design, in their ornamentation.  The same is true for a number of the stone crosses found in Ireland.  Coptic textual forms are to be found in the book of Dimma. "

I have visited many of these monastic centres on the continent. Some evolved into huge monastic schools with thousands of students. Others became the embryonic centres of new towns such as Koln, Wurzburg, Salzburg, St Gallen, Bobbio etc. This infrastructure of Celtic monastic settlements thrived during the 1,000 year Holy Roman Empire, 800 - 1,800.

Look, I've heard this stuff before, but I don't buy it, and there's a good reason why.

The Copts accept only the first three ecumenical councils of the Church. They are Monophysites, and parted ways with the Catholic Church over the Council of Chalcedon, A.D. 451, which concludes with the famous Tome of Pope St. Leo the Great about the two Natures of Christ, fully Divine and fully human. I'll spare you further details.

If the Irish church and its monks had really been influenced by the Copts, then they too should have been Monophysite and anti-Chalcedonian, but, as far as I know, they never were. No such controversy ever arose within the Irish church or is mentioned in its history.

But perhaps you are talking about an influence that predates the Council of Chalcedon and that ceased after it.

Anyway, St. Patrick was alive when the council of Chalcedon took place, and he is supposed to have presided over the full and final conversion of the Irish during the second half of the 5th century. That means Coptic monks coming to Ireland would have probably arrived after the Council of Chalcedon. It is doubtful they would have been welcomed by St. Patrick or by other monks and clergy trained by him.

I just think the whole Egyptian monk thing is fanciful and probably very much fictional.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: A.D. on December 15, 2011, 06:13:31 PM
I think the idea is that the Med influence does pre-date the  Council of Chalcedon. It was the music that  I looked at and wasn't related to DNA or archeology etc. It just seemed to me (probably wrongly) that the music has more S Mediterranean influence than the y-DNA seems to. The supposed pagan Celtic pantheon is close to the Germanic possibly more so than to Greeco-Roman. The music far less so. As for the ideology, I wasn't proposing that Ireland was ever Coptic  but  that their 'style' was e.g. they sang Roman Hymns to Coptic melodies.   


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on December 15, 2011, 08:20:16 PM
If there was contact with Egyptian monks prior to Chalcedon, it couldn't have been much prior to it, since the Irish were only converted to Christianity around that same time.

I like Irish folk music, and I don't hear the eastern influence, but I'm not a music expert.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: A.D. on December 16, 2011, 01:40:14 PM
I'm not talking about the most commonly heard Irish folk reels etc  diddly-aye as it is some times described. I was  thinking  shanels solo  voice unaccompanied  music. I don't want to get to technical but you know Do Re Mi So Fa La Ti Do the major scale the natural minor starts from La The difference between Western and African is Do and So if you visualize the scale as a ladder each rung being a pitch Do and So would be flexible in the African method. This is  incomplete and hideously crude but it 'll give you a glimpse of what I'm talking about. The theory isn't mine, I never gave it much thought until I header Rory Gallagher  mixing  Blues folk and Arabic music seamlessly using a slide on the guitar to get the in-between notes. Also I think I used the word Coptic too loosely. As for the conversion, the idea goes that there was a Christian presence of some sort in Ireland before St Padraic. It's the music bit that stomps me if any one can put me right please do. If your interested a guy called Bob Quinn (I think)  did a program called 'Atlantean' in which some of the subjects are tackled and dished its on You Tube and thev shanels are featured.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on December 16, 2011, 04:00:21 PM
I think I hear more of an eastern tinge in some of the more archaic Gaelic music.  This Bulgarian folk song is worth a listen to.

http://www.foldedspace.org/files/bulgarian_shepherdess.mp3


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: A.D. on December 16, 2011, 04:49:13 PM
By 'archaic Gaelic music' you mean Western Scottish Isles thats exactly what I'm talking about  that 'tinge' is found down the West coast of Ireland. If you compair there scale to the Pythagorean scale (I think Wikipedia has an audio clip) you can hear the difference.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: A.D. on December 16, 2011, 05:14:03 PM
I just came across some thing about a Neanderthal flute 43,000 years old its supposed to be diatonic Do ,Re, Mi etc most primitive music (world wide) is pentatonic e.g  A, C, D, E, G, A. the C is the note with the flexible rung. (Eb minor pentatonic is all the black notes on the piano) Most Blues fans will know this. Surely its doubtful that western music has its origins in Neanderthal music.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: embPA on December 16, 2011, 06:12:29 PM
I don't know about shanels but there is sean nós music on the western coast of Ireland, unaccompanied.  The degree of ornamentation varies from Donegal to Galway to Clare. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean-nós_song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTj8yMK6HE8

Singing the in between notes rather than the usual intervals is melismatic, now overdone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melisma

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6791133

I wonder if it came to the US from Africa or was picked up from the Gaelic groups in the early days of the US, like tap dancing.   




Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: A.D. on December 16, 2011, 07:05:51 PM
Sean nos Is correct my misspelling I'm not sure if  if sean nos were carried to the U.S. or not. Melismatic was relapsed syllabic form in the Reformation this was quite a big thing with most protestants. In fact Erasmus and the Renascence Humanists were going of melisma as it became too ornate the words were taking 2nd place to the music. A lot of Puritan music was sombre and in minor keys or modes a notable exception was the Shakers who are credited with a lot of the up beat rhythms and major melodies I think this is very evident in what U.S. Country and Bluegrass, I've heard (not much it's not my thing).


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on December 16, 2011, 07:20:09 PM
By 'archaic Gaelic music' you mean Western Scottish Isles thats exactly what I'm talking about  that 'tinge' is found down the West coast of Ireland. If you compair there scale to the Pythagorean scale (I think Wikipedia has an audio clip) you can hear the difference.

This is what I would call the standard Gaelic lament from Ireland and Scotland.  Loads of them sound very similar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k-hFLzg5I4


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on December 16, 2011, 07:44:41 PM
Back to Z253.

I guess there is something to the Iberian connection, because, of four L21 men of Iberian descent who got Z253 results today, three of them are positive:

Amuchastegui, kit N93033

Rodriguez, kit 143916

Saldaña, kit 58625

Interesting, since Z253 is upstream of L226, which is primarily Irish. These guys do not have the characteristic L226 haplotype.



Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on December 17, 2011, 09:07:44 AM
Back to Z253.

I guess there is something to the Iberian connection, because, of four L21 men of Iberian descent who got Z253 results today, three of them are positive:

Amuchastegui, kit N93033

Rodriguez, kit 143916

Saldaña, kit 58625

Interesting, since Z253 is upstream of L226, which is primarily Irish. These guys do not have the characteristic L226 haplotype.


I thought that was big news, but no one reacted to it.

So, did Z253 get to the British Isles from Spain or vice versa?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on December 17, 2011, 12:43:47 PM
Back to Z253.

I guess there is something to the Iberian connection, because, of four L21 men of Iberian descent who got Z253 results today, three of them are positive:

Amuchastegui, kit N93033

Rodriguez, kit 143916

Saldaña, kit 58625

Interesting, since Z253 is upstream of L226, which is primarily Irish. These guys do not have the characteristic L226 haplotype.


I thought that was big news, but no one reacted to it.

So, did Z253 get to the British Isles from Spain or vice versa?

If the Iberian version is upstream and the STR's are very different then it must be a pretty old connection rather than some wild geese thing.  Have people from other countries tested for it?  As usual I suppose few French have tested.  Also, is there enough Z253 and derived people to do a variance calculation?  

If it is an ancient Iberian connection then the Irish type III being in the extreme SW of Ireland would indeed be the place you would expect any such connection in Ireland.  It kind of reminds me of P314.2 in that as well as a distinct McMartin cluster in Ireland and Scotland there are continental people outwith the cluster but with the SNP who must be distantly related.  So, as it stands the move from a to b must be pretty old. 


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: MHammers on December 17, 2011, 01:42:51 PM
Back to Z253.

I guess there is something to the Iberian connection, because, of four L21 men of Iberian descent who got Z253 results today, three of them are positive:

Amuchastegui, kit N93033

Rodriguez, kit 143916

Saldaña, kit 58625

Interesting, since Z253 is upstream of L226, which is primarily Irish. These guys do not have the characteristic L226 haplotype.


I thought that was big news, but no one reacted to it.

So, did Z253 get to the British Isles from Spain or vice versa?

I think Z253xL226 is some of the earliest L21 from what I've seen from the non-distinct haplotypes and the genetic distances among some of the members.  Doesn't this make 5 Iberians counting the 1000 Genomes guys?

With a Swiss and a Norwegian combined with the Iberians it looks like the start of some kind of Beaker or Bronze age pattern.  If several Germans and French come in Z253+, I would lean towards the Beaker period of 2500-1800.  If it remains more of a coastal pattern with the Swiss as an outlier, I would lean towards the slightly later Bronze age trade networks.  For now, I don't see a "wild geese" type scenario for two reasons 1) L226 and the more expansive downstream subclades have even less continentals, if at all. 2) Again, the variance is still too high with Z253xL226 to suggest a younger founder effect.

Of course, it is still early and everything could change.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 17, 2011, 04:01:06 PM
...Also, is there enough Z253 and derived people to do a variance calculation?  
I have been doing MRCA calculations for Z253, but in all fairness, it is so lopsided to L226, it is not a true reflection of Z253.  Too early.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on December 17, 2011, 05:12:14 PM
We need many more L21 men to order the Z253 test.

I will probably blow $29 on it myself very soon. My haplotype doesn't really resemble any of the positives thus far, but you never know.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 20, 2011, 11:33:50 PM
If I look at all the probable Z253+ L226- cluster people that are not from the Isles I get the following. This is speculative as they are not all Z253* confirmed. It is interesting to see they range from Iberia to Scandinavia....  reminds me of the Z196* North/South Cluster.


f58857____ Archuleta________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210________ BXPKT___ Spain, Basque Country, Guipuzcoa, Eibar
f132118___ Bankston_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117________ FUD8X___ Sweden
f128223___ Calzada__________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210________ BDAWP___ Spain
f66434____ Davila___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210________ 3SZYY___ Spain
f82247____ Garcia___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210________ ZQ6P9___ Spain
fN43805___ Lenares__________________ R-L21________________________ zzL21unassigned_ JDTJC___ Spain
f67597____ Robles___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210________ G9CRT___ Spain
f167768___ Romero___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210________ 7K7QZ___ Spain
f46334____ Sampedro_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210________ PP6SJ___ Spain, Cantabria, Matienzo
f143916___ Rodriguez________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-unassigned__ NR6EY___ Spain
fN93033___ Amuchástegui_____________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1210________ 5ZZXA___ Spain, Basque Country, Biscay, Lea-Artibai, Markina
f58625____ Guerra___________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned__ 6FDJY___ Spain
f162176___ Falch(Ølfernes)__________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned__ 5G4G5___ Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes
fE4785____ Gerber___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned__ GVU3M___ Switzerland, Bern, Oberaargau, Herzogenbuchsee


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on December 21, 2011, 09:53:52 AM
Z253 sounds like it could be really old if it includes people completely unmatched on an STR basis.  There could be a direct link between Spain and NW Ireland in remote times or they could both simply share some common ancestry at a third location.  The logical thing is to look at Atlantic France and Britain closely as they are geographically intermediate.  Another possibility is that the clade could have gone north to south at a remote era prior to L226 which I understand is pretty late and therefore doesnt tell us a lot about prehistory.  In tim it will be very interesting to get a variance figure for the Iberian Z253 to see if it is old or a later introduction from somewhere else.  I notice that the Iberians with a location indicated seem to be from the NE area (Basque Country and Cantrabria) and that makes it a poor match for the Atlantic Bronze Age and perhaps also the beaker period. 


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 21, 2011, 03:54:04 PM
Z253 sounds like it could be really old if it includes people completely unmatched on an STR basis.  There could be a direct link between Spain and NW Ireland in remote times or they could both simply share some common ancestry at a third location.  The logical thing is to look at Atlantic France and Britain closely as they are geographically intermediate.  Another possibility is that the clade could have gone north to south at a remote era prior to L226 which I understand is pretty late and therefore doesnt tell us a lot about prehistory.  In tim it will be very interesting to get a variance figure for the Iberian Z253 to see if it is old or a later introduction from somewhere else.  I notice that the Iberians with a location indicated seem to be from the NE area (Basque Country and Cantrabria) and that makes it a poor match for the Atlantic Bronze Age and perhaps also the beaker period.
The Z196 North-South cluster has a presence in the Pyrenees area too, in the form of M153 (the "Basque marker."


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: razyn on December 22, 2011, 11:22:49 AM
The Z196 North-South cluster has a presence in the Pyrenees area too, in the form of M153 (the "Basque marker."
There are also all those SRY2627 guys -- another subset of Z196, but not of the N/S cluster.

It has previously crossed my mind that Z196 might be somehow more closely related to L21 than to the other big P312 clades.  This occurred to me when I was scrolling through the R-P312 and Subclades project results, looking for the STR pattern of 10,11 at DYS 385ab.  A few of us (Larry Mayka called it the Pseudo N/S cluster) have that, and are Z196*.  But more instances of it occur under L21.  In either clade, it's way off-modal, and found in a small minority.  I've wondered whether it might point to a RecLOH triggered by some environmental factor or event in which some representatives those two P312 lineages were involved, such as mining (exposure to heavy metals or arsenic), survival of a relatively localized epidemic, or whatever makes those things happen.

I have no idea what processes are really involved; but I do think SNPs are more analogous to the cause of a condition, and STR patterns analogous to its symptoms.  A common pattern in this STR may not reflect the obvious "cause," i.e. the same SNP mutation; but such a pattern might still be a reflection of something held in common.  In my analogy, people get "flu-like symptoms" who don't actually suffer from influenza.

This may, of course, be poppycock.  But, hey, it's a forum.

And btw all that stuff about music, scales, Neanderthal flutes and whatnot (posted by A.D.) is very interesting to me, even though it seems pretty far off the topic of this thread.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 22, 2011, 04:02:35 PM
....  I've wondered whether it might point to a RecLOH triggered by some environmental factor or event in which some representatives those two P312 lineages were involved, such as mining (exposure to heavy metals or arsenic), survival of a relatively localized epidemic, or whatever makes those things happen.

I have no idea what processes are really involved; but I do think SNPs are more analogous to the cause of a condition, and STR patterns analogous to its symptoms.  ......
What I've heard from biochemists and the like is that most of these mutations were not likely to have come from identifiable causes and are essentially just random events.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 22, 2011, 04:28:15 PM
Which of them is Z253+? That is interesting because Lenares is of Spanish ancestry, but the rest are not.
I'll go through a little more background of how I have folks classified in the Haplotype_Data
spreadsheet into varieties/clusters.  They are speculative as they are just STRs so keep that in mind.

Here the variety labels and associated STR signatures for varieties that have at least one Z253+ and no Z253- people that I can find.
 
253-1189-T3 -  439<=11 459=8,9 456=15 (464=13,13,15,17)
253-1211 -  385a=12/13 439=11 447=24 449>=30 481<=20 (459=10,10) {Z253}
253-1117 -  511=11 557=17 usually (449>=30 442=13 439>=13 464x=14,$,16,$)
253-1117-554 -  511=11 557=17 (449>=30 442=13 439>=13 464=14,$,16,$) L554+
253-1130 -  385=11,11 449>=30 576>=19
253-1518 -  392>=15 448<=18 557>=17 444>=13 (607<=14)
253-unassigned

1189-T3 is the Irish Type III/L226+ folk.  1211 is really the Spanish cluster that you discovered. 253-unassigned are people who don't seem to fit in with anybody.

Below are the actual confirmed Z253+ people that are not L226+

fE4785____ Gerber___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ GVU3M___ Switzerland, Bern, Oberaargau, Herzogenbuchsee
fN93033___ Amuchástegui_____________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1211____________ 5ZZXA___ Spain, Basque Country, Biscay, Lea-Artibai, Markina
f58625____ Guerra___________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned______ 6FDJY___ Spain
f143916___ Rodriguez________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-unassigned______ NR6EY___ Spain
f92957____ Johnson__________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1130____________ GUXTG___ England, East Midlands, Lincolnshire, West Lindsey, Gainsborough
fN85107___ Hockings_________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ A5R59___ England, London
f120936___ Merry____________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned______ U38VD___ England, South East, Oxfordshire, Eynsham
f23996____ Pike_____________________ R-L21/Z253/L554______________ 253-554_____________ KNA9C___ England, South West, Dorset, Poole
f81795____ Whitehead________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ ___ England
f86680____ McConnell________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1130____________ HD5D5___ Ireland, Ulster
fN16295___ Ramsey___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ KU83A___ Ireland, Ulster
f99622____ Brown____________________ R-L21/Z253/L554______________ 253-554_____________ QEAEM___ Ireland
f19695____ McQuilkan________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1130____________ MN4KA___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyllshire, Kintyre, Clachan
f90442____ Law______________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1518____________ Z3WVN___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Ayrshire
f149770___ zzzUnkName_______________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-1518____________ 3QR7V___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Renfrewshire, Grennock
fN40675___ Hammers__________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned______ FFPST___ UK
f162176___ Falch(Ølfernes)__________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ 5G4G5___ Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes
fN26398___ Canady___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-1117____________ JEMDX___ zzzUnkOrigin


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 22, 2011, 04:44:32 PM
Here is the 1117 group.  A number of them could be L554+, but there is at least one L554- in the bunch.
 
253-1117 -  511=11 557=17 usually (449>=30 442=13 439>=13 464x=14,$,16,$)
253-1117-554 -  511=11 557=17 (449>=30 442=13 439>=13 464=14,$,16,$) L554+

f143187___ Hearne___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ ZU28D___ England, London
f64652____ Burns____________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ H7TGQ___ England, North West, Merseyside, Liverpool
f23996____ Pike_____________________ R-L21/Z253/L554______________ 253-554_____________ KNA9C___ England, South West, Dorset, Poole
f142420___ Canny____________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ BT8AA___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Dunmore
fN24384___ Gilchrist________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ BQGR2___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Loughrea
f92712____ Hogan____________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ ___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo, Foxfod
f7894_____ Deigan___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ 5AKTH___ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Kilkenny
f106554___ Conley___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ GT897___ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Meath
f205635___ Murta____________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ EME4H___ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Westmeath, Cummerstown
f79465____ Melican__________________ zzPredicted__________________ 253-1117____________ ___ Ireland, Munster, Co. Clare, Tulla
f57753____ Reynolds ________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ ___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Cavan (? or Leitrim - Briefne project)
f192984___ Ballisty_________________ R-L21*_______________________ 253-1117____________ WTZE7___ Ireland
f99622____ Brown____________________ R-L21/Z253/L554______________ 253-554_____________ QEAEM___ Ireland
f203486___ Cain_____________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ XNTHY___ Ireland
f145899___ Manning__________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ 249FU___ Ireland
f187458___ O'Neill__________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ 32H76___ Ireland
f186175___ Prendergast______________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ DK2AQ___ Ireland
f67988____ Reynolds_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ ___ Ireland
f24240____ Steedman_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ MQPFZ___ Scotland
f132118___ Bankston_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ FUD8X___ Sweden
f1238_____ Boone____________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ 6G984___ zzzUnkOrigin
fN26398___ Canady___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-1117____________ JEMDX___ zzzUnkOrigin
fN16269___ Canady __________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f162035___ Hafken___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ 657V7___ zzzUnkOrigin
f178343___ Mulligan_________________ zzPredicted__________________ 253-1117____________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f63332____ Reynolds_________________ zzPredicted__________________ 253-1117____________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f16153____ Robertson________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ PPF89___ zzzUnkOrigin
f141711___ Robertson________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f134798___ Roderick_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ AWETA___ zzzUnkOrigin
f175108___ zzzUnkName_______________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ ATRD9___ zzzUnkOrigin



Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 22, 2011, 04:48:10 PM
Here is the 1130 group.

253-1130 -  385=11,11 449>=30 576>=19


f92957____ Johnson__________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1130____________ GUXTG___ England, East Midlands, Lincolnshire, West Lindsey, Gainsborough
f86680____ McConnell________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1130____________ HD5D5___ Ireland, Ulster
f19695____ McQuilkan________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1130____________ MN4KA___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyllshire, Kintyre, Clachan
fN57947___ McConnell________________ zzPredicted__________________ 253-1130____________ HJ3MX___ Scotland


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 22, 2011, 04:51:49 PM
Here is the 1211 group. I use to label them 1210SP but this is the group that Rich identified some time ago.

253-1211 -  385a=12/13 439=11 447=24 449>=30 481<=20 (459=10,10)

fN93033___ Amuchástegui_____________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1210____________ 5ZZXA___ Spain, Basque Country, Biscay, Lea-Artibai, Markina
f58857____ Archuleta________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210____________ BXPKT___ Spain, Basque Country, Guipuzcoa, Eibar
f128223___ Calzada__________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210____________ BDAWP___ Spain
f66434____ Davila___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210____________ 3SZYY___ Spain
f82247____ Garcia___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210____________ ZQ6P9___ Spain
f67597____ Robles___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210____________ G9CRT___ Spain
f167768___ Romero___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210____________ 7K7QZ___ Spain
f46334____ Sampedro_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210____________ PP6SJ___ Spain, Cantabria, Matienzo
f152157___ Lopez ___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210____________ ME66Q___ zzzUnkOrigin
f157776___ Manchego ________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210____________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f73233____ Valencia ________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210____________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin



Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 22, 2011, 04:54:08 PM
Here is the 1518 group.

253-1518 -  392>=15 448<=18 557>=17 444>=13 (607<=14)

This is where the McCracken's fit in, and I think Lenares as well.

fN43805___ Lenares__________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518____________ JDTJC___ Spain
f94662____ Mitchell_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518____________ QM6HA___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Derry, Killymallaght
f14749____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518____________ 9TCMN___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Derry, Newtown Limavady
f90442____ Law______________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1518____________ Z3WVN___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Ayrshire
f149770___ zzzUnkName_______________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-1518____________ 3QR7V___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Renfrewshire, Grennock
y6YSEA____ McDonald_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518____________ 6YSEA___ Scotland
f35786____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518____________ XQMXR___ zzzUnkOrigin
f28460____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518____________ A8HY7___ zzzUnkOrigin
f103494___ Robinson_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518____________ DRP7A___ zzzUnkOrigin



Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 22, 2011, 04:57:49 PM
This is the group I label

253-unassigned

They are Z253+ but I can't comfortably place them in a variety with an STR signature. This group, in itself, is an  indicator that Z253 is old.


fE4785____ Gerber___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ GVU3M___ Switzerland, Bern, Oberaargau, Herzogenbuchsee
f58625____ Guerra___________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned______ 6FDJY___ Spain
f143916___ Rodriguez________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-unassigned______ NR6EY___ Spain
fN85107___ Hockings_________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ A5R59___ England, London
f120936___ Merry____________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned______ U38VD___ England, South East, Oxfordshire, Eynsham
f81795____ Whitehead________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ ___ England
fN16295___ Ramsey___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ KU83A___ Ireland, Ulster
fN40675___ Hammers__________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned______ FFPST___ UK
f162176___ Falch(Ølfernes)__________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ 5G4G5___ Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 22, 2011, 05:04:28 PM
If you break down these Z253 potential varieties by country and exclude the Isles you get these counts.

Spain (11)
Switzerland (1)
Sweden (1)
Denmark (1)
Norway (1)

The ones in Spain that are specific seem to be Basque Country and Cantabria.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on December 22, 2011, 08:06:43 PM
I wonder what it all means for the origin and history of Z253. It would be nice if we had enough continentals to get some idea where Z253 is oldest.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on December 23, 2011, 07:26:23 AM
The 1117 group seems predominantly Irish but confusingly include both a large Gaelic element and what seems to me to be likely Norman names

The 1130 group seems dominated by Hebridean Scots

The 1121 is clearly Spanish (apparently Basque/Cantabrian)

The 1518 group appears to be SW Scottish

Not easy to make sense of that.  I suppose in isles terms you could say the Irish Sea and Atlantic seaways are clearly predominant.  On the surface it looks like it travelled by those sea routes although the detail is very unclear.  I suspect that



Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on December 23, 2011, 05:45:13 PM
I have one question.  Does this NE Iberian group not belong to the STR cluster already identified by Rich, and was that not considered a young cluster?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on December 23, 2011, 08:21:32 PM
That's the one Mike called 1211. I think it was only about 1,000 years old or so.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: hoxgi on December 23, 2011, 09:49:59 PM
I'm just wondering if we know the age of L226 with reasonable confidence. If L226 is considerably older than the Spanish subclade of Z253, wouldn't this indicate that Z253 is unlikely to have originated in Iberia?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on December 23, 2011, 10:42:36 PM
Except for the fact that there are Spanish guys not in that cluster who are Z253+.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on December 24, 2011, 08:00:04 AM
Unfortunately, we do not have enough Z253xL226 results yet to be able to figure out where it is oldest. L226 was found first (via the WTY?) and has been aggressively pursued, due to the leadership of Dennis Wright, who has been an advocate and researcher for his Irish Type III group for quite some time. As a result, we have plenty of L226.

Z253, on the other hand, is new, and yet has already turned up in some continentals, both in the R-L21 Plus Project and the 1000 Genomes Project.

Personally, I'm betting it's continental in origin. Despite the very lopsided database we have, we've already found some continental Z253, and Iberian Z253 was part of the initial discovery of Z253 by the 1000 Genomes Project. In other words, we haven't had to dig or prod or wait for continental Z253; it's been in the forefront of that clade. The more British Isles subclades of L21 have been a different story.

I must confess that I also suspect that there is at least some basis in fact, however faint, in the Irish Book of Invasions, so movement from Iberia to Ireland would not surprise me. Of course, movement in the other direction is also possible, but I wouldn't think it would have left much of a genetic trail.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 24, 2011, 11:33:25 AM
It's not really correct to try to do an interclade age between L226 and Z253* since Z253* is not really a clade, but here it is:

L226&Z253* Interclade MRCA Age _ 2.8 (3.3-2.3)  N=92

L226 Clade MRCA Age ____________ 1.2 (1.3-1.1)  N=74
L226 Clade Coalescence Age _____ 1.1 (1.3-1.0)  N=74

Z253* Clade MRCA Age ___________ 3.5 (3.9-3.1)  N=18
Z253* Clade Coalescence Age ____ 2.9 (3.3-2.5)  N=18


L226 is pretty young.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on December 24, 2011, 03:07:54 PM
It's not really correct to try to do an interclade age between L226 and Z253* since Z253* is not really a clade, but here it is:

L226&Z253* Interclade MRCA Age _ 2.8 (3.3-2.3)  N=92

L226 Clade MRCA Age ____________ 1.2 (1.3-1.1)  N=74
L226 Clade Coalescence Age _____ 1.1 (1.3-1.0)  N=74

Z253* Clade MRCA Age ___________ 3.5 (3.9-3.1)  N=18
Z253* Clade Coalescence Age ____ 2.9 (3.3-2.5)  N=18


L226 is pretty young.

I think that is about roughly the same age as that Spanish 1211 cluster. I think of it as "the El Cid cluster", but mostly tongue in cheek. ;-)


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: A.D. on December 28, 2011, 12:32:54 PM
There seems to be quite a few Irish names and associations throughout  the 'the old Spanish world ' S. America etc I wonder if moving to Spain (for employment e.g ex-soldiers or crafts men) was an option for the Irish for a long time and there was no sudden drastic movement of people. Ireland and Spain  seem to have sea links going back to at least the bronze age  and after the reformation Spain was Ireland's closest Catholic neighbor.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on December 28, 2011, 01:34:57 PM
There seems to be quite a few Irish names and associations throughout  the 'the old Spanish world ' S. America etc I wonder if moving to Spain (for employment e.g ex-soldiers or crafts men) was an option for the Irish for a long time and there was no sudden drastic movement of people. Ireland and Spain  seem to have sea links going back to at least the bronze age  and after the reformation Spain was Ireland's closest Catholic neighbor.

Are you attributing Z253 in Spain to Irish settlement there?

If that is the case, where are all the Irish subclades in Spain? M222? L226? DF21? DF23?

How about the Z253 elsewhere on the Continent and in Britain? More Irish settlement?

I certainly have nothing against the Irish (I am part Irish on both my father's and mother's sides), but I have been battling this kind of thing since soon after L21 was first discovered back in late 2008.

I know it is possible that the Z253 in Spain and elsewhere could be due to Irish immigration, but each time I read some new post attributing all or part of L21 to Irish immigration it's like someone dragging his fingernails across a chalkboard.

I apologize for that reaction, but I can't help it. L21 was written off and marginalized before much evidence was in. Its high frequency in Ireland was used to argue that it originated there and therefore could not be truly Celtic but some sort of Stone Age aboriginal.

If it turns out Z253 originated in Ireland, fine. But let's have some more evidence, shall we?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: OConnor on December 28, 2011, 02:24:30 PM
Is there any Z253 in Scandinavia?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 28, 2011, 06:56:10 PM
Is there any Z253 in Scandinavia?

Yes, one that we know of.

...
f162176___ Falch(Ølfernes)__________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ 5G4G5___ Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes



Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: A.D. on December 29, 2011, 04:11:42 PM
It was just a thought about how some could have got to Spain. To be quite honest it displays my lack of knowledge. As for Irish ancestry, I think a lot of it has a 'mythical' status  it seems every body wants an Irish connection. I know for a fact some people from the U.S. have traced their ancestry back to Ireland because they found Cove as place of origin in fact it only means that's where they got on the boat. A fried of mine came home from the U.S. and was asked to photo a family 'home' in Cove he found nothing in Cove or any surrounding area corresponding to the name on graves,  parish records, town-lands, local historians absolutely nothing. On reporting back the news was replied with hostility and disbelief. I don't have too much faith in records but it's what wwe have to work with. 


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on December 30, 2011, 09:36:08 AM
And I don't mean to be a knot head. Sorry if I come off that way sometimes. It could be the Z253 in Spain came from Ireland, but I tend to think of Ireland and the other parts of the British Isles as mostly receiving population and influences from the Continent in ancient times and not vice versa.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: MHammers on December 30, 2011, 11:04:14 AM
And I don't mean to be a knot head. Sorry if I come off that way sometimes. It could be the Z253 in Spain came from Ireland, but I tend to think of Ireland and the other parts of the British Isles as mostly receiving population and influences from the Continent in ancient times and not vice versa.

Really, L21 as a whole is in flux right now with all the new SNP's.  The out of the Isles proponents may get validation with some of this, when once alot more of the undifferentiated continentals are tested.  Still, L21**, Z253, etc. are at least as old the Bronze age, so where these nodes were born may never be known.  France is still the better candidate as a source for the upstream part, imo.  I think what we can say though is, there has been alot of maritime movements at all levels of R1b since L11+, whereas as M269- L11 was more land-based.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on December 30, 2011, 06:42:03 PM
Honestly, from what I have seen, by far most of our continentals are coming up negative for the Isles clades or what look thus far like Isles clades.

And most of our French guys still have no decent matches at 37 markers and beyond.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: A.D. on December 31, 2011, 11:35:22 PM
I thnk if i had said 'via' Ireland as opposed to 'from' Ireland would have made more sense in what I was asking. Put simply if Ireland could have had a disproportional in put due to the political circumstances at the time. It was not a question of origin but 'in put'. {'ll  give you an idea of how I think ( please correct me I could dom with some restoration in humanity) Stone age rms2 , A.D. and Brad Pitt go on a 'world wide Tour' of Europe who is going to have the most decedents? Did I mention Brads was a family friend from 'Outer Albigulia'. I think the question of how prolific any  DNA type is ultimately down to individuals. 
   


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 06, 2012, 06:14:04 PM
Wow! Great news! We have hit on Irish Type IV/Continental, or what I label 1310-T4. A while ago a Gerber from Switzerland came up Z253+. I noticed he was 426=13 and 406s1=11 which is common among 1310-T4. 426 is a very slow mutator, in fact.  Margaret J identified an aggressive testing 1310-T4 guy and his result just came in Z53+.

This means Irish Type IV and Irish Type III are more closely related to each other than the rest of L21. We are getting some nice layering (of big branches) in the L21 tree.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 06, 2012, 06:53:24 PM
Wow! Great news! We have hit on Irish Type IV/Continental, or what I label 1310-T4. A while ago a Gerber from Switzerland came up Z253+. I noticed he was 426=13 and 406s1=11 which is common among 1310-T4. 426 is a very slow mutator, in fact.  Margaret J identified an aggressive testing 1310-T4 guy and his result just came in Z53+.

This means Irish Type IV and Irish Type III are more closely related to each other than the rest of L21. We are getting some nice layering (of big branches) in the L21 tree.

I am finding this increasingly hard to keep up with!  If I recall correctly Irish Type 3 is linked to the DalgCais tribes of SW Ireland while Irish Type 4 has been suggested to relate to Normans etc.  Its hard to make sense of that if they are especially closely connected genetically. Perhaps history repeated itself and both the 'Normans' and the DalgCais originated in NW France, albeit settling Ireland at different times.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on January 06, 2012, 07:54:41 PM
A few other British Isles guys got Z253+ results this evening, as did another member of that Spanish cluster, which I think Mike has labeled "1211", the one with 385=12-14 and 459=10-10.

I am wondering if Z253 isn't evidence of movement from northern Iberia to the British Isles at some point. Of course, I understand the reverse could be the case.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 06, 2012, 08:30:49 PM
Wow! Great news! We have hit on Irish Type IV/Continental, or what I label 1310-T4. A while ago a Gerber from Switzerland came up Z253+. I noticed he was 426=13 and 406s1=11 which is common among 1310-T4. 426 is a very slow mutator, in fact.  Margaret J identified an aggressive testing 1310-T4 guy and his result just came in Z53+.
This means Irish Type IV and Irish Type III are more closely related to each other than the rest of L21. ...
I am finding this increasingly hard to keep up with!  If I recall correctly Irish Type 3 is linked to the DalgCais tribes of SW Ireland while Irish Type 4 has been suggested to relate to Normans etc.  Its hard to make sense of that if they are especially closely connected genetically. Perhaps history repeated itself and both the 'Normans' and the DalgCais originated in NW France, albeit settling Ireland at different times.
I think Ken Nordtvedt (hope I have this right) discovered both of these, but at some point in the process he uncovered a scattered continental distribution for Irish IV, hence he added "continental" and he speculated this might have something to do with the Normans.  I think he'd admit this was just a speculation.

You are right, Dennis Wright's research is that Irish III/L226+ is related to Dalcassian tribes.  Dennis has even written a paper about their surnames and locations. Here are the two main web sites for Irish III and IV.  James O'Shea is the project leader for IV.

http://www.irishtype3dna.org/index.php
http://sites.google.com/site/irishtype4/irish-type-4-sub-clade

L226+ (Irish 3) guys are very much relegated to Ireland, particularly Munster.

Here are the non-Isles guys who are in Z253+ clusters.
f132118   Bankston   Sweden
fN93033   Amuchástegui   Spain, Basque Country, Biscay, Lea-Artibai, Markina
f58857   Archuleta   Spain, Basque Country, Guipuzcoa, Eibar
f128223   Calzada   Spain
f66434   Davila   Spain
f82247   Garcia   Spain
f67597   Robles   Spain
f167768   Romero   Spain
f46334   Sampedro   Spain, Cantabria, Matienzo
fE4785   Gerber   Switzerland, Bern, Oberaargau, Herzogenbuchsee
f76285   Woods   Netherlands
fN43805   Lenares   Spain
f98444   Bryan   Denmark
f162176   Falch(Ølfernes)   Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes
f58625   Guerra   Spain
f143916   Rodriguez   Spain

Here is Dennis W's paper on Z253+ L226+ Irish III:
http://www.jogg.info/51/files/Wright.pdf
Dennis W writes that Irish III
Quote
reveals a distinctive Y-DNA signature that peaks in frequency in the Irish counties of Tipperary, Clare and Limerick. These counties were the hereditary homelands of the DalgCais families, allso called Dalcassian, septs descended from Cas, born CE 347, sixth in descent from Cormac Cas, King of Munster. Dalcassian surnames are more strongly represented with this signature than other surnames.
and
Quote
   O'Brien are descendants from Brian Boru
    McGrath were poets to the O'Brien Clan and descend from Brian Boru's brother. (see Notes section)
    Hogan are descendants from Cosgrach, an uncle of Brian Boru
    Kennedy are descendants from a nephew of Brian Boru
    Crow(e) are a sub-sept of the O'Brien clan
    Casey are a sub-sept of the OBrien clan
    McMahon are a major sub-branch of O'Brien clan
    O'Mahony are descended from Mathghamhain (Irish for bear), the grandson of Brian Boru through his daughter Sabh who married Cian (O'Mahony). So this line is not Dalcassian in the male line.

Here is a map of where Z253* (apparently) Irish IV guys are found in Ireland. Close to home for me... Kilkenny and Wexford.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxpcmlzaHR5cGU0fGd4OjM3OTdlYTJmMzdiMjk2N2Q&pli=1

Here is O'Shea's interpretation of IV:
Quote from: James O
The results can be viewed in at least two ways.

Like the other Irish sub-clades it could be that the progenitor of the group was from one of the medieval Irish clans of the area such as the Déise, the Osraige or the Laigin. However the fact that the matching surnames include a majority with British and Continental ancestry makes this unlikely. It might be possible to accept that the British surnames evolved from a SE Irish source but it is almost impossible to see how the many Continental did.

It is thus more logical to accept that the progenitor was a European whose descendents migrated to Britain leaving offspring there, some of whom in turn moved westwards to Ireland. While no expert on medieval migrations seeing the presence of many surnames of apparent Norman origin it would appear that the progenitor is likely to have been of Norman extraction whose descendents arrived in England as part of the Norman invasion of 1066 and subsequently adopted various surnames there. Later descendents could have been part of the Norman invasion of Ireland in 1169 who settled in the SE of Ireland. They could perhaps even have been kin of those who adopted the Butler surname. The other Irish surnames could have been adopted over the generations by the usual methods of non-paternity events, fostering, inter-marriage, adoption etc. It is known that there were strong links between the incoming settlers and the native Irish resulting for instance in James Butler (d.1487) the father of the 8th earl of Ormond being fostered out, probably to Kennedy foster parents.    


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on January 07, 2012, 07:19:17 AM
My first reaction is to doubt a Norman origin for Z253 in the British Isles and look to Iberia and well before 1066.

What "surnames of apparent Norman origin" was O'Shea talking about?

I guess if Z253 starts showing up among guys with established Norman pedigrees, that will be some kind of indication. By "established Norman pedigrees" I mean mostly Frenchmen with ancestry in Normandy. My experience with claims of Norman ancestry in the British Isles is that they are nearly impossible to prove and everybody seems to have or want one.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Maliclavelli on January 07, 2012, 07:57:48 AM
My first reaction is to doubt a Norman origin for Z253 in the British Isles and look to Iberia and well before 1066.
Of course I agree with you. It seems that R-L21 has had a starlike diffusion (8 subclades so far) and only more data about R-L21/L459* will be able to say which was its point of origin. Certainly this subclade Z253, with its presence in Spain and Switzerland, seems to make us hypothesize an origin near my Italian Refugium. You know I have always said that Italy has very few R-L21, and some are clearly of recent French origin, but the same Argiedude, the same Soncina, the last R-L21 found in Lucania (deep South Italy) ask for other analysis.
And, please, don’t use anymore the old calculations about the haplogroups age. These haplogroups are older and their diffusion must be thought in another history (or, better, prehistory) of Europe. Why Busby et al. said that R-L21 hadn’t a lower variance than the supposed Middle Eastern R-haplogroups? Because, probably, the haplotypes survived (seen that the most part went extinct) of R-L21 it isn’t said that are more recent than the other ancestral ones. The DYS464=13, 13, 15,17 of the Irish III/Dalcassian demonstrates, I think, by its low values in a and b, its ancientness and the link with the ancestral values of R1b1* and first subclades. I, who am R-L23, have only 14,14 in a,b. Even though am I to have hypothesized the mutations around the modal and the convergence to the modal as time passes and the mutation for the tangent (higher and lower of course), these values demonstrate the ancientness of these haplotypes. And don’t forget the DYS19=10 of Argiedude or DYS450=10 of Soncina and of Jones, who, not by chance, is R-L21/L371, i.e. one of the first subclades of R-L459.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 07, 2012, 09:24:36 AM
My first reaction is to doubt a Norman origin for Z253 in the British Isles and look to Iberia and well before 1066.

What "surnames of apparent Norman origin" was O'Shea talking about?

I guess if Z253 starts showing up among guys with established Norman pedigrees, that will be some kind of indication. By "established Norman pedigrees" I mean mostly Frenchmen with ancestry in Normandy. My experience with claims of Norman ancestry in the British Isles is that they are nearly impossible to prove and everybody seems to have or want one.

In Irish terms 'non-native' or non-Gaelic' surnames were apparently very prominent among the Irish type 4 people with only a minority of Gaelic ones.  As non-Gaelic names are nowhere near as common as Gaelic ones among the modern Irish, the non-Gaelic names in Irish 4 are overrepresented hugely and this seems very unlikely to be chance.  Norman may be the wrong word but there seems to be a strong theory that it represents later incomers to Ireland.  

As I have noted before, history tends to repeat itself due partly to Geography and its possible that both the NW French element of the 'Normans' and the Gaelic Irish had roots in essentially the same area of the continent, albeit they arrived in Ireland at radically different times.  The fact that the STRs of Irish 3 and 4 are radically different indicates that the SNP in common is some sort of deep time ancestral thing from shared ancestry several 1000s of years earlier.  I would guess this all indicates too that the SNP is really pretty old.

As for origin, it seems STRs are of limited use in terms of very deep time relationships.  Basically shows that really deep time relationships relating to the first 500 years or so after L21 will only be resolved by SNPs.  Does this all suggest that Z253 is very old, almost as old as L21?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 07, 2012, 03:11:44 PM
I have got to say again that the lack of French testing will be a huge problem in understanding L21 at subclade level.  France is the nearest country and was almost certainly the most important on the prehistory of the isles. 


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 07, 2012, 06:17:22 PM
...... Why Busby et al. said that R-L21 hadn’t a lower variance than the supposed Middle Eastern R-haplogroups?...
Busby et al never really wrote about or analyzed that in terms of the whole R1b phylogeny. He did not look above R-L11(S127). His claim is there are no significant differences in STR diversity from east to west in Europe for L11. It appears to be a tremendous hole in their report that they did not look upstream at L51*, L23*, M269*. I don't know, but it seems like such a hole that I question the intent of the paper.

Of course, I could also bring up the point (another log for the fire) that at least six of the ten STRs that they used to study L11 STR diversity and east/west clines were not "linear" (their term) for more than 5000 years by their own analysis. Why would they claim that Barlaresque is wrong that R1b had Neolithic spread (7000 years ago) using data that 60% of which is not valid for the same timeframe?  by their own standard!

Can you anyone argue in support of Busby on these two holes in their paper? These are holes big enough to drive trucks through.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 07, 2012, 06:37:06 PM
...  The DYS464=13, 13, 15,17 of the Irish III/Dalcassian demonstrates, I think, by its low values in a and b, its ancientness and the link with the ancestral values of R1b1* and first subclades. I, who am R-L23, have only 14,14 in a,b. ....
Let's think this through a bit.  You are saying Irish III's (I'll call it L226) low values at 464a and 464b reflect "ancientness" because some folks who are L23*, like yourself also have low values as well.

Please look at the establish Y DNA phlyogeny for L226 and back upstream.
http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html
L226 descends from Z253 which descends from L21 which descends from P312 which descends from L11, etc.

We've got all of the data. The modal at 464a,b for L21 is 15,15. This is not a marginal statement. From our DNA projects for L21:

464a
3480 have 15
408 have 14
274 have 13

464b
2933 have 15
59 have 14
195 have 13

So for low values like 14 or 13 to be the ancestral values for L21 means those folks had extremely bad luck while the guys who had 464a,b=15,15 just took off.  For L21 maybe this happened so the low values are ancestral - just the 15,15 guys were lucky.'

We go up the next step to P312 what do we find?  The same thing. 464a,b=15,15 is the clear modal for P312. L21 brother U152 also has 15,15 underneath P312... so does brother Z196.

Let's go back another step to L11.  The same. L11's modal is 15,15. L11*'s is also 15,15.

It would amazing for the ancestral lineage back to L23 to have the low 464a,b values carry forward through the descendants down to L226 while at least three different times, L11, P312 and L21 - different 15,15 guys became much, much more numerous after having their mutations to 15,15.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 07, 2012, 07:22:01 PM
I understand that the Iberian Z253 guys are also in an STR cluster that Rich identified some time back.  Am I right in recalling that this cluster was considered to be young and the descendants of one Medieval guy?  I also understand that the Irish type 3 is considered to date to not much older than 1200 years ago.  I also understand that STRs of the Iberian Z253 cluster, the Irish type 3 are very different from each other and also from Irish type 4.  If I am understanding this correctly both the Iberian and Irish 3 STR-based clusters are on the one hand essentially the result of one Medieval guy in Ireland and Iberia respectively whiie on the other hand the actual common Z253 ancestor of these (and Irish type 4) must have lived a very long time back, nearer the time of L21.  Is that on the right track?

It really is amazing how many people are the descendants of a few people who lived in the AD era.  It makes it incredibly difficult to infer the what and where of the prehistoric era.  As far as I can see we have an early SNP who location of origin is unknown and then we have nothing to go by until we reach the end game of Medieval STR clusters perhaps some 3000 years later. If this is right then we still have a chasm of thousands of years between the SNP and the localised clusters.  Perhaps Z253 was early enough to have spread widely with the spread of L21 and then simply took off to varying degrees by chance in scattered areas forming clusters in the Medieval period. 


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 07, 2012, 07:43:15 PM
Wow! Great news! We have hit on Irish Type IV/Continental, or what I label 1310-T4. A while ago a Gerber from Switzerland came up Z253+. I noticed he was 426=13 and 406s1=11 which is common among 1310-T4. 426 is a very slow mutator, in fact.  Margaret J identified an aggressive testing 1310-T4 guy and his result just came in Z53+.

This means Irish Type IV and Irish Type III are more closely related to each other than the rest of L21. We are getting some nice layering (of big branches) in the L21 tree.

Probably jumping the gun but the presence in SW Ireland (Irish 3), NE Spain (NE Iberian cluster) and (perhaps) the part of France associated with the Normans and their allies (Irish 4) might give some sort of suggestion of an original centre of gravity in Atlantic France and access to the western seaways. However, given the SNP is clearly old but the local clusters are young, it would seem that their could have been spread at any time from the Bronze Age to Medieval times, perhaps in more than one phase and perhaps more than one direction.  The evidence for this is that Irish 3 and 4 are both found in Ireland but their common ancestor is very distant despite the proximity.  Again, I do think geography and natural transportation routes mean history repeats itself.   


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on January 07, 2012, 07:46:31 PM
There are a couple of Spanish Z253+ guys thus far who do not belong to that Iberian cluster with 385=12-14 and 459=10-10. So, Z253 in Spain is broader than just that single cluster.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on January 07, 2012, 07:57:28 PM
There are a couple of Spanish Z253+ guys thus far who do not belong to that Iberian cluster with 385=12-14 and 459=10-10. So, Z253 in Spain is broader than just that single cluster.

One of those guys has no matches at 67 markers and one 33/37 match with a man with the German surname Braun.

The other has - I just discovered - one decent match, 61/67, with a man whose ancestor had the surname Gonzales and who has already tested L21+ (but who has not yet joined the project). He has a 33/37 match with a man with the Spanish surname De Leon but who lists no means for me to contact him, unfortunately.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on January 07, 2012, 08:24:48 PM
The two Spanish Z253+ gentlemen I was talking about, Ysearch NR6EY and 6FDJY, are 19 apart at 67 markers. Again, they are not part of that Spanish cluster I think Mike has labelled "1211", with 385=12-14 and 459=10-10.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 07, 2012, 08:31:11 PM
There are a couple of Spanish Z253+ guys thus far who do not belong to that Iberian cluster with 385=12-14 and 459=10-10. So, Z253 in Spain is broader than just that single cluster.

One of those guys has no matches at 67 markers and one 33/37 match with a man with the German surname Braun.

The other has - I just discovered - one decent match, 61/67, with a man whose ancestor had the surname Gonzales and who has already tested L21+ (but who has not yet joined the project). He has a 33/37 match with a man with the Spanish surname De Leon but who lists no means for me to contact him, unfortunately.

Any locations for the non-cluster Spanish Z253 guys?  The NE Spain location for the cluster is not what I would expect if the link is a beaker or Atlantic Bronze Age one.  I would more expect Portugal and Galicia.

Have many French tested for Z253 yet?  I am always mindful of the unfortunate thing that the nearest neighbour to Britain and Ireland is usually very undertested.  When L21 first appeared the SW German group started to look strong first despite it in reality being not that strong while it took a bit of money to be thrown at French R1b to reveal its strength there despite it being pretty strong in France.  Could the same thing be happening for Z253?  I would tend to take the Irish IV cluster being Z253 as indirect evidence that it had a presence somewhere between the Loire and Flanders (where the Normans and their allies came from) in the high Medieval period.  Brittany and Normandy seem likely to me.  


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on January 07, 2012, 08:36:50 PM
Actually, the two Z253+ guys I referred to as Spanish cannot get their lines out of Mexico in one case and Puerto Rico in the other, but the surnames are solidly Spanish.

I'll have to check the possible French Z253 test results, if there are any. There are no French positives yet, at least in our project.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 07, 2012, 08:37:29 PM
There are a couple of Spanish Z253+ guys thus far who do not belong to that Iberian cluster with 385=12-14 and 459=10-10. So, Z253 in Spain is broader than just that single cluster.

Interesting.  Which Iberian L21 has tested negative for Z253?  I wonder if there is a pattern of any sort between Iberians who are negative or positive for Z253.  I have always thought that as well as the NE cluster, all Iberian L21 with a location seems to either be in the east or the west.  It would be interesting (although baffling) if Iberian Z253 is NE Spanish while L21* is west Iberian.  I have no idea if this is the case though.  


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 07, 2012, 08:43:27 PM
...Also, I have to say its really fascinating that the L21 block in Ireland includes clades who, when interclade variance is calculated, have not shared a common ancestor since around the time of L21 itself.  L21 is clearly not going to remain something that can be considered in a monolithic way for much longer.  Even Irish L21 looks rather like it had multiple entries into Ireland at different times and from different directions.   


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on January 07, 2012, 08:51:36 PM
Okay. I can only find one French Z253 test result, and it was negative. That was for Biron, who is our one L96+ guy, so we know L96 is not downstream of Z253.

Another possible is Durall, whose surname appears French but who is uncertain about its origin. He likewise got a Z253- result.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on January 07, 2012, 08:57:45 PM
BTW, I thought IALEM once posted that there is Beaker stuff all over NE Spain. Is that not the case?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 07, 2012, 09:02:34 PM
BTW, I thought IALEM once posted that there is Beaker stuff all over NE Spain. Is that not the case?

I am not sure.  Traditionally it was thought to be mainly SE Spain and Portugal etc but it may have changed.  I do vaguely recall him posting that.  There is not a good overview book on beakers in recent times.  I will have a dig about to check.  Certainly though the Atlantic Bronze Age would be seen mainly as a west Iberian thing. 


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 07, 2012, 09:21:21 PM
BTW, I thought IALEM once posted that there is Beaker stuff all over NE Spain. Is that not the case?

I am not sure.  Traditionally it was thought to be mainly SE Spain and Portugal etc but it may have changed.  I do vaguely recall him posting that.  There is not a good overview book on beakers in recent times.  I will have a dig about to check.  Certainly though the Atlantic Bronze Age would be seen mainly as a west Iberian thing. 

I cant say I rate the beaker maps on the web highly but the ones that are from books do seem to indicate that the coastal NE of Iberia lacks beakers although there seems to have been a healthy amount in the eastern Messeta inland.  In terms of coasts Portugal and SE Iberia stand out.  I would like to see a more up to date study on beakers in Iberia though. 


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 08, 2012, 10:46:27 AM
For people who are into the tribal names thing, the Gangani tribe of SW Ireland and NW Wales noted in early Roman times has been linked by some to the Concani tribe of the Cantabri of Cantabria in NE Spain.  I am pretty sure that the museum in Santander, the capital of Cantabria, have some British/Irish metalwork of the late Bronze Age, considered imports.  I wonder if there was some sort of Bronze Age metal trade connection that linked Cantabria, NE Wales and SW Ireland and perhaps a tribal outpost in each area linked to it.  It just sprung to mind because of the remote NE Spanish/SW Ireland link that Z253 could suggest.  It may have been small scale because most of the Z253 people do seem to belong to Medieval clusters rather than indicating any sort of large movement.  I also would feel its extremely likely that Z253 would have been present in the Atlantic France area in between.    Wiki notes of the Cantabri:

According to Pliny the Elder[8] Cantabria also contained gold, silver, tin, lead and iron mines, as well as magnetite and amber, but little is known about them; Strabo[9] also mentions salt extraction in mines, such as the ones existent around Cabezón de la Sal.

Of course the SW of Ireland featured a number of Copper Mines of copper and early Bronze Age date while NW Wales featured the Early Bronze Age Great Orme copper mine. 

So, early mining seems to be associated with the SW Irish, NW Welsh and NE Spanish areas where the similar sounding tribal names were located.  I generally am not into this O'Rahilly type comparing of tribal names but I do find the Gangani-Concani one interesting.  If it was a real connection I would (in the absence of any similarities in the archaeological record of the Iron Age) tend to think the connection dates back to the early Bronze Age.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 08, 2012, 11:21:03 AM
Actually, it seems that one of the British-Irish cauldrons was actually found in a prehistoric mine in Cantabria.  

I found this article on the Atlantic Bronze Age on the web.  It is not all in English but it seems much more thorough an exploration of it than most of what can be found on the web.  Some useful distribution maps of Atlantic Bronze Age material is provided.

http://www.igespar.pt/media/uploads/trabalhosdearqueologia/10/IntercambioeComercioAsEconomiasdaIdadedoBronze1.pdf


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 08, 2012, 11:41:36 AM
I have given a better link to Atlantic Bronze Age article by editing my previous post

Actually the original was a different article.  Here is it too

http://www.scribd.com/doc/29413470/Arq-Bronze-Existe-Bronc-Atlantico-Ta-10-1-Conceito

The overall tone seem a bit skeptical about the Atlantic Bronze Age.  I really wish someone would publish a good in depth book on the subject in English.  I sort of muddled my way through the French but my Spanish is even more rudimentary. 

One thing about the Atlantic Bronze Age to bear in mind is that it is seen as an elite trade/contact network rather than migration except perhaps on a very small scale.  While the high status material has an international flavour the ordinary stuff often seem rather localised and different.  The Atlantic Bronze Age elite contact network is a plausible location for the emergence of Celtic out of Italo-Celtic or west IE (the more I read into it, the more it seems more plausible than the old model of late Celticization of the west by Urnfield-Hallstatt-La Tene elements) but it clearly did not estabish the haplotype and clade proportions in Atlantic Europe as they are very divergent across its expanse.  I wouldnt rule out the possibility that the network may have allowed minor trickles of multi-directional movement though. 


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on January 08, 2012, 12:46:17 PM
I might have missed someone, but I checked back pretty far on the "Received Lab Results" page of the R-L21 Plus Project for men with Spanish or Portuguese surnames who have Z253 results.

There are six thus far, four who are Z253+ and two who are Z253-.

Here are the lists, beginning with the positives.

Z253+

Davila*  f66434 (Spain - no further info)
Amuchastegui* fN93033  (Markina, Bizkaia, Spain - Basque Country)
Saldaña  f58625 (Mexico)
Rodriguez  f143916 (Puerto Rico)

* Member of the cluster with 385=12-14 and 459=10-10

Z253-

Rodriguez  f89912 (Galicia, Spain)
Chavez  f180338 (Mexico)

As for Z253 tests pending, I know one of our Portuguese guys just ordered it, and one of our French guys has it on order, with the result due 22 February. A number of guys with British Isles surnames have it on order.

I want to order it myself, but I just spent what is for me a bundle of cash for the Family Finder test. Z253 will have to wait.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Heber on January 08, 2012, 01:50:36 PM
Actually, it seems that one of the British-Irish cauldrons was actually found in a prehistoric mine in Cantabria.  

I found this article on the Atlantic Bronze Age on the web.  It is not all in English but it seems much more thorough an exploration of it than most of what can be found on the web.  Some useful distribution maps of Atlantic Bronze Age material is provided.

http://www.igespar.pt/media/uploads/trabalhosdearqueologia/10/IntercambioeComercioAsEconomiasdaIdadedoBronze1.pdf

That is a very interesting series of papers followed by a discussion. I managed to get through all of the French and some of the Spanish. What struck me was the similarity of the Torcs and Lunulae from Ireland and Brittany and the similarity of shields found in Portugal and Ireland. The Iberian chariots supports are similar to those fount in Halstatt and they mention similarities with daggers found in The Alps. It would appear that the Atlantic Bronze age had some connection with Halstatt and Le Tene.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 08, 2012, 04:00:39 PM
I might have missed someone, but I checked back pretty far on the "Received Lab Results" page of the R-L21 Plus Project for men with Spanish or Portuguese surnames who have Z253 results.

There are six thus far, four who are Z253+ and two who are Z253-.

Here are the lists, beginning with the positives.

Z253+

Davila*  f66434 (Spain - no further info)
Amuchastegui* fN93033  (Markina, Bizkaia, Spain - Basque Country)
Saldaña  f58625 (Mexico)
Rodriguez  f143916 (Puerto Rico)

* Member of the cluster with 385=12-14 and 459=10-10

Z253-

Rodriguez  f89912 (Galicia, Spain)
Chavez  f180338 (Mexico)

As for Z253 tests pending, I know one of our Portuguese guys just ordered it, and one of our French guys has it on order, with the result due 22 February. A number of guys with British Isles surnames have it on order.

I want to order it myself, but I just spent what is for me a bundle of cash for the Family Finder test. Z253 will have to wait.

well out of the two people with locations, they perfectly fit my idea of Z253 in NE Spain and L21* in western Iberia.  I think that wraps it up lol

Shame there is a lack of known origin points in Iberia.  I wonder if anyone can comment on the surnames and if they indicate area of origin within Iberia.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 08, 2012, 04:13:13 PM
Actually Davila and Sandana seem to both be names from Castille y Leon (kind of northern and just inland from Cantabria etc) while Chavez is often Portuguese.  That does kind of place the two negatives in western Iberia and the two positives more north-easterly.  I love trying to spot patterns lol.  Cant help myself!


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on January 08, 2012, 08:26:46 PM
Actually Davila and Sandana seem to both be names from Castille y Leon (kind of northern and just inland from Cantabria etc) while Chavez is often Portuguese.  That does kind of place the two negatives in western Iberia and the two positives more north-easterly.  I love trying to spot patterns lol.  Cant help myself!

The patterns you spot are helpful. You were the one who predicted that L21 would be (or might be) common in France, and you were ultimately proven right.

There may be something to that possible Gangani/Concani connection to Z253 you mentioned earlier.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Maliclavelli on January 09, 2012, 10:11:59 AM
...  The DYS464=13, 13, 15,17 of the Irish III/Dalcassian demonstrates, I think, by its low values in a and b, its ancientness and the link with the ancestral values of R1b1* and first subclades. I, who am R-L23, have only 14,14 in a,b. ....
Let's think this through a bit.  You are saying Irish III's (I'll call it L226) low values at 464a and 464b reflect "ancientness" because some folks who are L23*, like yourself also have low values as well.

Please look at the establish Y DNA phlyogeny for L226 and back upstream.
http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html
L226 descends from Z253 which descends from L21 which descends from P312 which descends from L11, etc.

We've got all of the data. The modal at 464a,b for L21 is 15,15. This is not a marginal statement. From our DNA projects for L21:

464a
3480 have 15
408 have 14
274 have 13

464b
2933 have 15
59 have 14
195 have 13

So for low values like 14 or 13 to be the ancestral values for L21 means those folks had extremely bad luck while the guys who had 464a,b=15,15 just took off.  For L21 maybe this happened so the low values are ancestral - just the 15,15 guys were lucky.'

We go up the next step to P312 what do we find?  The same thing. 464a,b=15,15 is the clear modal for P312. L21 brother U152 also has 15,15 underneath P312... so does brother Z196.

Let's go back another step to L11.  The same. L11's modal is 15,15. L11*'s is also 15,15.

It would amazing for the ancestral lineage back to L23 to have the low 464a,b values carry forward through the descendants down to L226 while at least three different times, L11, P312 and L21 - different 15,15 guys became much, much more numerous after having their mutations to 15,15.

I have no time to respond your questions in detail and I have treated these arguments many times and in many postings. I have criticized your use of the modal values, which are conceived by you only like the most diffused, but which proof have you that those were the original ones? None.
Let’s take the two Spanish guys (R-Z253) quoted by Rich Stevens:

the former has DYS464=15-15-17-17
the latter has DYS464=14-15-16-17

By your reasoning the former would be the modal unchanged, and the latter would have had two mutations in a and c, both backwards. But how can you presuppose this? Only by a prejudice, i.e. by its etymology a judgment done before any proof. And you don’t know how many mutations may have happened from the original DYS464, how many mutations around the modal, how many convergence to the modal, how many mutations for the tangent may be happened.

14-15-16-17 was probably the set before my 14-14-16-17, and before probably a 14-15-16-18, thought the modal of R-L23. But, also here, how many mutations etc etc? This is worth for every marker. I have said many times that your “modal” is worth nothing. Why DYS19 of R-L23 could be 14 and not my 15, seen that haplogroups  upstream mine have 15 and not 14 etc etc

To my a few friends, whom now I don’t consider so, I suggested to reconstruct their modal step by step and not taking the most diffused values.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 09, 2012, 10:17:58 AM
Actually Davila and Sandana seem to both be names from Castille y Leon (kind of northern and just inland from Cantabria etc) while Chavez is often Portuguese.  That does kind of place the two negatives in western Iberia and the two positives more north-easterly.  I love trying to spot patterns lol.  Cant help myself!

The patterns you spot are helpful. You were the one who predicted that L21 would be (or might be) common in France, and you were ultimately proven right.

There may be something to that possible Gangani/Concani connection to Z253 you mentioned earlier.

I think northern France was an absolute cert for L21 given its the main source of contact with the isles through much of prehistory and again in the high Medieval period.  What I did get wrong was I didnt realise L21 was more Atlantic in its continental centre of gravity  than U152 because of the misleading pileup of south German L21 that quickly and steadily came through hobby testing.  However, if we hadnt done the funded French testing, we could have wrongly thought it was a south German cluster for a long time.    


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Maliclavelli on January 09, 2012, 02:33:43 PM
I have no time to respond your questions in detail and I have treated these arguments many times and in many postings. I have criticized your use of the modal values, which are conceived by you only like the most diffused, but which proof have you that those were the original ones? None.
Let’s take the two Spanish guys (R-Z253) quoted by Rich Stevens:

the former has DYS464=15-15-17-17
the latter has DYS464=14-15-16-17

By your reasoning the former would be the modal unchanged, and the latter would have had two mutations in a and c, both backwards. But how can you presuppose this? Only by a prejudice, i.e. by its etymology a judgment done before any proof. And you don’t know how many mutations may have happened from the original DYS464, how many mutations around the modal, how many convergence to the modal, how many mutations for the tangent may be happened.

14-15-16-17 was probably the set before my 14-14-16-17, and before probably a 14-15-16-18, thought the modal of R-L23. But, also here, how many mutations etc etc? This is worth for every marker. I have said many times that your “modal” is worth nothing. Why DYS19 of R-L23 could be 14 and not my 15, seen that haplogroups  upstream mine have 15 and not 14 etc etc

To my a few friends, whom now I don’t consider so, I suggested to reconstruct their modal step by step and not taking the most diffused values.

See about this what are saying Anatole Klyosov on Rootsweb, after that I have criticized his method on “Dienekes’ Anthropology blog” and defined his work (important in his field: Chemistry) an impressive waste of time:

“The same situation exists in E-V13 subclade. The currently living people give the TMRCA of ~ 3400 ybp. However, the excavated remnant gave 7,000 ybp for E-V13. It is not a discrepancy, it is of a different meaning. The lineage is ancient, however, at some point between 7,000 and 3,400 the lineage was clinging on the brink of extinction”.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 09, 2012, 03:04:35 PM
...  The DYS464=13, 13, 15,17 of the Irish III/Dalcassian demonstrates, I think, by its low values in a and b, its ancientness and the link with the ancestral values of R1b1* and first subclades. I, who am R-L23, have only 14,14 in a,b. ....
Let's think this through a bit.  You are saying Irish III's (I'll call it L226) low values at 464a and 464b reflect "ancientness" because some folks who are L23*, like yourself also have low values as well.

Please look at the establish Y DNA phlyogeny for L226 and back upstream.
http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html
L226 descends from Z253 which descends from L21 which descends from P312 which descends from L11, etc.

We've got all of the data. The modal at 464a,b for L21 is 15,15. This is not a marginal statement. From our DNA projects for L21:

464a
3480 have 15
408 have 14
274 have 13

464b
2933 have 15
59 have 14
195 have 13

So for low values like 14 or 13 to be the ancestral values for L21 means those folks had extremely bad luck while the guys who had 464a,b=15,15 just took off.  For L21 maybe this happened so the low values are ancestral - just the 15,15 guys were lucky.'

We go up the next step to P312 what do we find?  The same thing. 464a,b=15,15 is the clear modal for P312. L21 brother U152 also has 15,15 underneath P312... so does brother Z196.

Let's go back another step to L11.  The same. L11's modal is 15,15. L11*'s is also 15,15.

It would amazing for the ancestral lineage back to L23 to have the low 464a,b values carry forward through the descendants down to L226 while at least three different times, L11, P312 and L21 - different 15,15 guys became much, much more numerous after having their mutations to 15,15.

I have no time to respond your questions in detail and I have treated these arguments many times and in many postings. I have criticized your use of the modal values, which are conceived by you only like the most diffused, but which proof have you that those were the original ones? None.
....
You are the one who brought this up by saying "Irish III/Dalcassian demonstrates, I think, by its low values in a and b, its ancientness." Why don't you prove that? or at least gives us some logical reasoning that the odds are high that IrishIII's 464a=13,13 is an ancient link to some haplogroup pre-M269 or pre-L23 or pre-L11.

That's got to be pretty hard to do since 464 is considered a fast mutating marker and we are talking about up to 8-15k years ago.  

To consider probabilities you should take into account that between Irish III and L23 there are these clade SNP markers, Z253, L21, P312, L11 and those clades have brothers and cousins that include U152, Z196, L48 and the most common values for 464a,b are 15,15, by vast majority in each of those separate branches. That's an amazing coincidence if each of the those clades had a founder who was 464a,b=13,13 or 14,14.

I must be totally misunderstanding your English. What you are saying related to "ancientness" for IrishIII 464a,b makes no sense.  Is it impossible? No, anything is possible, but why would you think to make such a linkage unless you didn't understand the Y tree structure (phylogeny.)

Well, I think we are wasting blog space and time on this, but I just don't general readers to think that if you have STR match with some people in a clade multiple branches away (thousands of years) from you in the Y DNA tree that such a match is meaningful. It's not.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Maliclavelli on January 09, 2012, 03:14:24 PM
Mike, read, please, my quoting above from Anatole Klyosov. For “ancientness” I did mean that, as Z253 is one of the subclade of R-L21, we can think that it is more ancient of other subclades or, for taking present Klyosov, that the other subclades may have lost the most ancient haplotypes and theirs MRCA is a person more recent etc. etc.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 09, 2012, 03:43:34 PM
Mike, read, please, my quoting above from Anatole Klyosov. For “ancientness” I did mean that, as Z253 is one of the subclade of R-L21, we can think that it is more ancient of other subclades or, for taking present Klyosov, that the other subclades may have lost the most ancient haplotypes and theirs MRCA is a person more recent etc. etc.
If what you are trying point out about "ancientness" is the point that Anatole K made here? ...
Quote
The TMRCA for M222 haplotypes of CURRENTLY LIVING people is 1450+/-150 ybp (years before present). It is a grand non-interrupted super-lineage evolving from the middle of the 1st millennium AD. However, the M222 "origin" is in fact at the break of BC/AD, as determined from distinct M222 branches.It is at least 2,000 years "old".

I absolutely agree with that, which is what the interclade TMRCA Generations7 estimate have been showing. Even though M222's MRCA is not that old the lineage must have diverged from L21 and then DF23 quite a while before M222's MRCA.  The interclades between M222 and L513, for example, are quite old, relatively.

Probably the same is true for L226 (IrishIII) so maybe I agree with you after all - if I understand correctly. L226 is fairly young but its lineage may have diverged from Z253 quite some time ago. That's what it's somewhat unusual STR values seem to indicate. I don't know if 464 is that reliable for telling us this, but generally L226 seems to have its own distinctive pattern.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Maliclavelli on January 09, 2012, 04:09:03 PM
Yes, we all agree on this, even though I have criticized Klyosov because I think that the ancientness of these haplogroups is higher. Both the V13 and the G2a found in South France had been estimated by their STR values younger, 3000 years instead of 7000, for this I am saying that your age of the haplogroups should be multiplied for 2.5 at least… and we would be in another history or, better, prehistory. From this come my theory of the agriculturalists by sea from Italy to Spain and Portugal 7500 years ago, my theory of the Italian Refugium, probably more recently the pile dwellers of the Adriatic etc.
It is clear that all this shall be demonstrated by aDNA, archaeology etc.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 09, 2012, 06:03:37 PM
... Both the V13 and the G2a found in South France had been estimated by their STR values younger, 3000 years instead of 7000, for this I am saying that your age of the haplogroups should be multiplied for 2.5 at least… and we would be in another history or, better, prehistory. From this come my theory...
I agree that there are problems with looking at STR diversity by geography. Balaresque did this and Busby was extremely critical saying the diversity clines for R-L11 were insignificant. This is what Dienekes is concerned about too.  This is a legitimate concern.

However, that the particular matter doesn't apply where we assess groups that are known to have a common ancestor. When we look at all of of a subclade (marked by an SNP) versus another, that removes the problem that somehow we are measuring people in the wrong group (i.e. Country A person who really was from Country B earlier.)  The good news when comparing haplogroups is that SNP's clarify to make sure we have right people in the right group.

Are there controversies about mutation rates in general? Sure, but that doesn't mean relative aging between groups is useless.

Ken Nordtvedt is steadfast in saying the evolutionary rates are based on bad science... fudge factors, etc. He is former member of the US National Science Board and a top statistician. He has innovated a number of concepts in TMRCA estimations. The interclade approach to age estimates that he developed is also helpful in reducing error, since we don't need as representative a collection of data from the two clades. We are looking at where they meet, not each individually.

If evolutionary rates are correct, you still have a bit of a problem with your theories in explaining the presence of hg's like G, J and E. Are you saying they are much older than Neolithic and must be Paleolithic?

I've posted Marko Heinilas ages on those haplogroups. They are clearly older than R1b-L11, which is the vast majority of R1b in Western Europe.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: IALEM on January 09, 2012, 07:16:14 PM
BTW, I thought IALEM once posted that there is Beaker stuff all over NE Spain. Is that not the case?

I am not sure.  Traditionally it was thought to be mainly SE Spain and Portugal etc but it may have changed.  I do vaguely recall him posting that.  There is not a good overview book on beakers in recent times.  I will have a dig about to check.  Certainly though the Atlantic Bronze Age would be seen mainly as a west Iberian thing. 
There is indeed Bell Beaker in NE Spain, in particular in the Basque Country. However it is not part of the first wave of Bell Beaker expansion from Portugal, that apparently did not affect that region, but from the reflux coming from the north. So yes, there is Bell Beaker in NE Spain, but its inmediate origin is the SW of France


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: IALEM on January 09, 2012, 07:23:39 PM
Actually Davila and Sandana seem to both be names from Castille y Leon (kind of northern and just inland from Cantabria etc) while Chavez is often Portuguese.  That does kind of place the two negatives in western Iberia and the two positives more north-easterly.  I love trying to spot patterns lol.  Cant help myself!
You are right, Dávila and Saldaña are toponimics from those towns in Castile and Leon. Chavez is very extended, it is mainly portuguese but there is an important jewish branch.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 09, 2012, 07:34:33 PM
BTW, I thought IALEM once posted that there is Beaker stuff all over NE Spain. Is that not the case?

I am not sure.  Traditionally it was thought to be mainly SE Spain and Portugal etc but it may have changed.  I do vaguely recall him posting that.  There is not a good overview book on beakers in recent times.  I will have a dig about to check.  Certainly though the Atlantic Bronze Age would be seen mainly as a west Iberian thing. 
There is indeed Bell Beaker in NE Spain, in particular in the Basque Country. However it is not part of the first wave of Bell Beaker expansion from Portugal, that apparently did not affect that region, but from the reflux coming from the north. So yes, there is Bell Beaker in NE Spain, but its inmediate origin is the SW of France

That is interesting given the L21 hotspot (by Iberian standards) in the Basque and Cantabria areas.  It would make sense if beakers in that area came from SW France where there is a reasonable amount of L21.  I now tend to think if the beaker model is the best interpretation of P312 that L21 actually first occurred in France.  That seems to be what variance suggests.  If it expanded mainly in the beaker hotspot of Atlantic France in all directions a lot would make sense to me about its distribution which does seem to radiate from that area.  For what its worth I now tend to think Celtic may have arisen in a wide area centred on Atlantic France and L21 may have been right at the heart of its origins.       


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Heber on January 09, 2012, 11:57:32 PM
BTW, I thought IALEM once posted that there is Beaker stuff all over NE Spain. Is that not the case?

I am not sure.  Traditionally it was thought to be mainly SE Spain and Portugal etc but it may have changed.  I do vaguely recall him posting that.  There is not a good overview book on beakers in recent times.  I will have a dig about to check.  Certainly though the Atlantic Bronze Age would be seen mainly as a west Iberian thing.  
There is indeed Bell Beaker in NE Spain, in particular in the Basque Country. However it is not part of the first wave of Bell Beaker expansion from Portugal, that apparently did not affect that region, but from the reflux coming from the north. So yes, there is Bell Beaker in NE Spain, but its inmediate origin is the SW of France

That is interesting given the L21 hotspot (by Iberian standards) in the Basque and Cantabria areas.  It would make sense if beakers in that area came from SW France where there is a reasonable amount of L21.  I now tend to think if the beaker model is the best interpretation of P312 that L21 actually first occurred in France.  That seems to be what variance suggests.  If it expanded mainly in the beaker hotspot of Atlantic France in all directions a lot would make sense to me about its distribution which does seem to radiate from that area.  For what its worth I now tend to think Celtic may have arisen in a wide area centred on Atlantic France and L21 may have been right at the heart of its origins.      

Alan,

I would agree that Celtic originated on the Atlantic facade during the Atlantic Bronze Age, but I would put its origins closer to Tartassian and the Tagus valley. I also agree that the beaker model is the best interpretation of P312. I think Galicia was an important hub as it is a hotspot of Celtic culture and Celtic tribes. As they spread northwards along the Atlantic facade Brittany and Morbihan became an important hub and possibly the link with the Alpine Europe, Halstatt and Le Tene via the Loire, Rhone and Rhine.

"Social and commercial relations between the peoples of the northwest of the Iberian Peninsula and those of Brittany and the British Islands date back to very remote times. Trade in tin between Ireland and Galicia was already established during the late Neolithic (MacCalister 1921:16), and the similarities in thousands of stone tombs found all along the coasts of Atlantic Europe could indicate that those contacts existed during the period of megalith construction as well (Eogan 1982). These ancient connections continued during the Bronze Age, when a welldefined socio-cultural and commercial zone called the Atlantic Façade, Area, or Province included Ireland, the Isle of Man, Scotland, Wales, the Cornish Peninsula, Armorica (Brittany) and Galicia in Spain, and lasted for at least three millennia (Cunliffe 1997:148). Cunliffe affords northwestern Iberia particular importance within the zone, noting how the complex influence of western seaways converged "around the isolated yet reassuring stepping-stone of Galicia" (Cunliffe 2001:60). Koch has discussed the social basis of early celticization, presenting a model in which he argues that the consolidation of a proto-Celtic language took place during the Late Bronze Age (c.1300-600 BC) in the Atlantic Zone (1991:18-19). According to a number of authors, Celtic language(s) became the lingua franca for the whole area at the time (Alonso Romero 1976; Cunliffe 1997:148-56; Meijide 1994; Ruiz-Gálvez 1984: passim). Thus, enough evidence exists to indicate that several centuries before the Christian Era, the northwest of the Iberian peninsula was already integrated into the Atlantic world (Tranoy 1981:103), and that the contacts between Galicia and the Celtic Atlantic regions continued until the middle of the first millennium AD (Cunliffe 1997: 145-49"
"Not long before the emergence of the Celts, an Indo-European pre- or proto-Celtic people had already settled in northwestern Iberia (Maluquer de Motes 1975: 130-31; Rankin 1996:6), a historical fact substantiated by epigraphic evidence (Tovar 1985:227-53). Strabo and Pliny described several tribes dwelling in the western regions of Iberia, among them the Celts; Herodotus refers to the Keltici in the west of the Iberian Peninsula and Pomponius Mela to the Celtici who had settled all along the northern and western coasts. Pliny left a list of the tribes living in the Conventus Lucensis (a large part of Galicia) in which he describes the regions inhabited by Celtic peoples (Tranoy 1981:41). This early presence of Celtic populations in the northwestern Iberian Peninsula is also confirmed by linguistic studies and archaeological finds (Ibid. 245-46)."
http://www4.uwm.edu/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol6/6_20/alberro_6_20.pdf

These Atlantic trading routes are described in Professor Barry Cunliffes book "The Celts".

http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=3qzteKHfWUQC&pg=PT28&lpg=PT28&dq=morbihan+celtic+bell+beaker&source=bl&ots=UnA90JiYHT&sig=8YlNHZzi9nwglMhYXvLLI52Xmh4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tLQLT-fPOISiiAeVq_SABg&redir_esc=y&hl=zh-CN&sourceid=cndr#v=onepage&q&f=false

BTW the Atlantic region has its own designation and regional funding within the EU.
http://ec.europa.eu/environment/nature/info/pubs/docs/biogeos/Atlantic.pdf
http://arcatlantique.org/pdf/doc_travail/278_en.pdf





Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 10, 2012, 06:12:54 PM
BTW, I thought IALEM once posted that there is Beaker stuff all over NE Spain. Is that not the case?

I am not sure.  Traditionally it was thought to be mainly SE Spain and Portugal etc but it may have changed.  I do vaguely recall him posting that.  There is not a good overview book on beakers in recent times.  I will have a dig about to check.  Certainly though the Atlantic Bronze Age would be seen mainly as a west Iberian thing.  
There is indeed Bell Beaker in NE Spain, in particular in the Basque Country. However it is not part of the first wave of Bell Beaker expansion from Portugal, that apparently did not affect that region, but from the reflux coming from the north. So yes, there is Bell Beaker in NE Spain, but its inmediate origin is the SW of France

That is interesting given the L21 hotspot (by Iberian standards) in the Basque and Cantabria areas.  It would make sense if beakers in that area came from SW France where there is a reasonable amount of L21.  I now tend to think if the beaker model is the best interpretation of P312 that L21 actually first occurred in France.  That seems to be what variance suggests.  If it expanded mainly in the beaker hotspot of Atlantic France in all directions a lot would make sense to me about its distribution which does seem to radiate from that area.  For what its worth I now tend to think Celtic may have arisen in a wide area centred on Atlantic France and L21 may have been right at the heart of its origins.      

Alan,

I would agree that Celtic originated on the Atlantic facade during the Atlantic Bronze Age, but I would put its origins closer to Tartassian and the Tagus valley. I also agree that the beaker model is the best interpretation of P312. I think Galicia was an important hub as it is a hotspot of Celtic culture and Celtic tribes. As they spread northwards along the Atlantic facade Brittany and Morbihan became an important hub and possibly the link with the Alpine Europe, Halstatt and Le Tene via the Loire, Rhone and Rhine.

"Social and commercial relations between the peoples of the northwest of the Iberian Peninsula and those of Brittany and the British Islands date back to very remote times. Trade in tin between Ireland and Galicia was already established during the late Neolithic (MacCalister 1921:16), and the similarities in thousands of stone tombs found all along the coasts of Atlantic Europe could indicate that those contacts existed during the period of megalith construction as well (Eogan 1982). These ancient connections continued during the Bronze Age, when a welldefined socio-cultural and commercial zone called the Atlantic Façade, Area, or Province included Ireland, the Isle of Man, Scotland, Wales, the Cornish Peninsula, Armorica (Brittany) and Galicia in Spain, and lasted for at least three millennia (Cunliffe 1997:148). Cunliffe affords northwestern Iberia particular importance within the zone, noting how the complex influence of western seaways converged "around the isolated yet reassuring stepping-stone of Galicia" (Cunliffe 2001:60). Koch has discussed the social basis of early celticization, presenting a model in which he argues that the consolidation of a proto-Celtic language took place during the Late Bronze Age (c.1300-600 BC) in the Atlantic Zone (1991:18-19). According to a number of authors, Celtic language(s) became the lingua franca for the whole area at the time (Alonso Romero 1976; Cunliffe 1997:148-56; Meijide 1994; Ruiz-Gálvez 1984: passim). Thus, enough evidence exists to indicate that several centuries before the Christian Era, the northwest of the Iberian peninsula was already integrated into the Atlantic world (Tranoy 1981:103), and that the contacts between Galicia and the Celtic Atlantic regions continued until the middle of the first millennium AD (Cunliffe 1997: 145-49"
"Not long before the emergence of the Celts, an Indo-European pre- or proto-Celtic people had already settled in northwestern Iberia (Maluquer de Motes 1975: 130-31; Rankin 1996:6), a historical fact substantiated by epigraphic evidence (Tovar 1985:227-53). Strabo and Pliny described several tribes dwelling in the western regions of Iberia, among them the Celts; Herodotus refers to the Keltici in the west of the Iberian Peninsula and Pomponius Mela to the Celtici who had settled all along the northern and western coasts. Pliny left a list of the tribes living in the Conventus Lucensis (a large part of Galicia) in which he describes the regions inhabited by Celtic peoples (Tranoy 1981:41). This early presence of Celtic populations in the northwestern Iberian Peninsula is also confirmed by linguistic studies and archaeological finds (Ibid. 245-46)."
http://www4.uwm.edu/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol6/6_20/alberro_6_20.pdf

These Atlantic trading routes are described in Professor Barry Cunliffes book "The Celts".

http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=3qzteKHfWUQC&pg=PT28&lpg=PT28&dq=morbihan+celtic+bell+beaker&source=bl&ots=UnA90JiYHT&sig=8YlNHZzi9nwglMhYXvLLI52Xmh4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tLQLT-fPOISiiAeVq_SABg&redir_esc=y&hl=zh-CN&sourceid=cndr#v=onepage&q&f=false

BTW the Atlantic region has its own designation and regional funding within the EU.
http://ec.europa.eu/environment/nature/info/pubs/docs/biogeos/Atlantic.pdf
http://arcatlantique.org/pdf/doc_travail/278_en.pdf\

One thing I think tends to get blurred is the fact that Atlantic Iberia from Portugal as far as perhaps Cantabria shows signs of a Lusitanian type language.  People tend to use the term para Celtic or Proto-Celtic but from what I have read it is basically a non-Celtic language that lacks the features that define Celtic and is rather closer to Italic.  That puts it in a similar class to Ligurian.  The fact there are two IE languages that may even have been living until quite late does suggest more to me that Celtic overlaid Lusitantian type languages.  So, I believe that Iberia was secondary in the development of Celtic and it more likely happened to the north in northern France where there doesnt seem to be that evidence for non-Celtic IE.  It seems to me that western Europe was first settled by people speaking Lusitanian/.Ligurian/Italic type languages and that Celtic developed in part of that group as a slow development away from the Italic base.  I believe that this development probably occurred on the NW periphery of the Italic group at some point in the mid-late Bronze Age, probably among beaker descended groups in the north and west of France.  I would think Iberia may have been largely Italic before influences from and connections with the north Atlantic areas dragged its elites into the developing Celtic speaking zone.  What has persuaded me that Celtic originated in the Atlantic Bronze Age is that much of Gallia Keltica and the various tribes actually called the Celti or Celtici (who probably gave their name to the ethnic label) actually falls far more into the Atlantic Bronze Age zone than that of the urnfield culture. In fact the urnfield culture only had a major impact on the fringes of the area of France called Celtica and the areas of Iberia with tribes called Celti etc.  So, whatever the name originally meant, I believe the Celts were the descendants of the Atlantic Bronze Age peoples, not central Europeans.





Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Maliclavelli on January 11, 2012, 02:44:33 AM
Alan trowel hands writes:
One thing I think tends to get blurred is the fact that Atlantic Iberia from Portugal as far as perhaps Cantabria shows signs of a Lusitanian type language.  People tend to use the term para Celtic or Proto-Celtic but from what I have read it is basically a non-Celtic language that lacks the features that define Celtic and is rather closer to Italic.  That puts it in a similar class to Ligurian.  The fact there are two IE languages that may even have been living until quite late does suggest more to me that Celtic overlaid Lusitantian type languages.  So, I believe that Iberia was secondary in the development of Celtic and it more likely happened to the north in northern France where there doesnt seem to be that evidence for non-Celtic IE.  It seems to me that western Europe was first settled by people speaking Lusitanian/.Ligurian/Italic type languages and that Celtic developed in part of that group as a slow development away from the Italic base.  I believe that this development probably occurred on the NW periphery of the Italic group at some point in the mid-late Bronze Age, probably among beaker descended groups in the north and west of France.  I would think Iberia may have been largely Italic before influences from and connections with the north Atlantic areas dragged its elites into the developing Celtic speaking zone.  What has persuaded me that Celtic originated in the Atlantic Bronze Age is that much of Gallia Keltica and the various tribes actually called the Celti or Celtici (who probably gave their name to the ethnic label) actually falls far more into the Atlantic Bronze Age zone than that of the urnfield culture. In fact the urnfield culture only had a major impact on the fringes of the area of France called Celtica and the areas of Iberia with tribes called Celti etc.  So, whatever the name originally meant, I believe the Celts were the descendants of the Atlantic Bronze Age peoples, not central Europeans.

Of course I agree perfectly with you. In which is different what you say from my theory?
1)   Italian Refugium
2)   7500 years ago “Italian” agriculturalists by sea peopled Spain and Portugal coming from many places of Italian Peninsula: Sardinia, Arene Candide in Liguria (but firstly they came from Tuscany)
3)   They carried G2a, E-V13, but I think also some R-P312, from which derived the particular Spanish haplogroups, R-M167, R-M153. but probably also R-L21, which in fact lack in Italy (but some R-L21 in the Lake Region, see Argiedude, could already be present). Probably some R-U152* was present: see the Mexicans found in 1000 Genome Project by Richard Rocca with at least 18 independent mutations…
Why I think that Spain isn’t at the origin of R? Because there lack the haplogroups upstream P-312, which are largely present in Italy, which get the “path” like I have always said, and the last communication of Rich Rocca about the 2 R-L51 in Tuscans (about 4%), the percentage found by Argiedude and me in Central-North Italy and lowest out of it. The other point is the R-L23/L150- of the Italian Romitti. But Italy has also the R1b1*, the R-M18, the R-M269 with YCAII=17-23 etc.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rollyhomer on January 11, 2012, 04:45:30 AM
Now R-L21: New SNP Z253 will set a new platform for new innovations.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Heber on January 11, 2012, 01:55:54 PM
Alan trowel hands writes:
One thing I think tends to get blurred is the fact that Atlantic Iberia from Portugal as far as perhaps Cantabria shows signs of a Lusitanian type language.  People tend to use the term para Celtic or Proto-Celtic but from what I have read it is basically a non-Celtic language that lacks the features that define Celtic and is rather closer to Italic.  That puts it in a similar class to Ligurian.  The fact there are two IE languages that may even have been living until quite late does suggest more to me that Celtic overlaid Lusitantian type languages.  So, I believe that Iberia was secondary in the development of Celtic and it more likely happened to the north in northern France where there doesnt seem to be that evidence for non-Celtic IE.  It seems to me that western Europe was first settled by people speaking Lusitanian/.Ligurian/Italic type languages and that Celtic developed in part of that group as a slow development away from the Italic base.  I believe that this development probably occurred on the NW periphery of the Italic group at some point in the mid-late Bronze Age, probably among beaker descended groups in the north and west of France.  I would think Iberia may have been largely Italic before influences from and connections with the north Atlantic areas dragged its elites into the developing Celtic speaking zone.  What has persuaded me that Celtic originated in the Atlantic Bronze Age is that much of Gallia Keltica and the various tribes actually called the Celti or Celtici (who probably gave their name to the ethnic label) actually falls far more into the Atlantic Bronze Age zone than that of the urnfield culture. In fact the urnfield culture only had a major impact on the fringes of the area of France called Celtica and the areas of Iberia with tribes called Celti etc.  So, whatever the name originally meant, I believe the Celts were the descendants of the Atlantic Bronze Age peoples, not central Europeans.

Of course I agree perfectly with you. In which is different what you say from my theory?
1)   Italian Refugium
2)   7500 years ago “Italian” agriculturalists by sea peopled Spain and Portugal coming from many places of Italian Peninsula: Sardinia, Arene Candide in Liguria (but firstly they came from Tuscany)
3)   They carried G2a, E-V13, but I think also some R-P312, from which derived the particular Spanish haplogroups, R-M167, R-M153. but probably also R-L21, which in fact lack in Italy (but some R-L21 in the Lake Region, see Argiedude, could already be present). Probably some R-U152* was present: see the Mexicans found in 1000 Genome Project by Richard Rocca with at least 18 independent mutations…
Why I think that Spain isn’t at the origin of R? Because there lack the haplogroups upstream P-312, which are largely present in Italy, which get the “path” like I have always said, and the last communication of Rich Rocca about the 2 R-L51 in Tuscans (about 4%), the percentage found by Argiedude and me in Central-North Italy and lowest out of it. The other point is the R-L23/L150- of the Italian Romitti. But Italy has also the R1b1*, the R-M18, the R-M269 with YCAII=17-23 etc.


What is interesting about the Atlantic Facade is that so many of the major migrations passed in waves by there and we're concentrated in specific regions:
The Atlantic Megalithic 4,800 - 3,000 and 3,000 - 1,200 between Iberia, Brittany, England, Ireland to Scotland
The Maritime Bell Beaker 2,400 - 1,800 between Iberia, Brittany, Ireland, England
The Atlantic Bronze Age 1,300 - 700 between Iberia, Brittany, Ireland, England
The Iron Age 1,200 BC - 300 AD between Iberia, Brittany, Halstatt, Le Tene (via the Loire, Rhone, Rhine)  The Isles
Common hotspots were Tartessian, Galicia, Morbihan, Wiltshire, Boyne Valley
Many originated from Anatolia, and migrated via Italy, Iberia and France to the Isles.
It is almost like successive generations were following in the footsteps of their ancestors.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on January 30, 2012, 10:02:22 PM
A few more Irish guys who are L226- got Z253+ results this evening. I don't have time right now to list them and talk about their haplotypes. Maybe tomorrow, or maybe Mike will take up the slack on that.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 31, 2012, 03:50:31 PM
A few more Irish guys who are L226- got Z253+ results this evening....
Here is the list I have

fN26398___ Canady___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-1117____________ JEMDX___ zzzUnkOrigin

f106554___ Conley___________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1117____________ GT897___ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Meath

fN24384___ Gilchrist________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1117____________ BQGR2___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Loughrea

f205635___ Murta____________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1117____________ EME4H___ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Westmeath, Cummerstown

f92957____ Johnson__________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1130____________ GUXTG___ England, East Midlands, Lincolnshire, West Lindsey, Gainsborough

f86680____ McConnell________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1130____________ HD5D5___ Ireland, Ulster

f19695____ McQuilkan________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1130____________ MN4KA___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyllshire, Kintyre, Clachan

fN93033___ Amuchástegui_____________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1211____________ 5ZZXA___ Spain, Basque Country, Biscay, Lea-Artibai, Markina

f66434____ Davila___________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1211____________ 3SZYY___ Spain

fE4785____ Gerber___________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1310____________ GVU3M___ Switzerland, Bern, Oberaargau, Herzogenbuchsee

f124852___ Leonard__________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1310-T4_________ MBX33___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Sligo

f99622____ Brown____________________ R-L21/Z253/L554______________ 253-1414____________ QEAEM___ Ireland

f23996____ Pike_____________________ R-L21/Z253/L554______________ 253-1414____________ KNA9C___ England, South West, Dorset, Poole

fN16295___ Ramsey___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-1414____________ KU83A___ Ireland, Ulster

f130121___ Ramsey___________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1414____________ ___ Ireland

f90442____ Law______________________
R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1518____________ Z3WVN___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Ayrshire

f94662____ Mitchell_________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1518____________ QM6HA___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Derry, Killymallaght

f149770___ zzzUnkName_______________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1518____________ 3QR7V___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Renfrewshire, Grennock

f149025___ Abbotts__________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ zzZ253unassigned____ S9QTM___ England, West Midlands, Shropshire, Lee Brockhurst

f162176___ Falch(Ølfernes)__________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ 5G4G5___ Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes

f58625____ Guerra___________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned______ 6FDJY___ Spain

fN40675___ Hammers__________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned______ FFPST___ UK

fN85107___ Hockings_________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ A5R59___ England, London

f184691___ Keany____________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned______ HYYYJ___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Leitrim, Glenfarne

f86086____ Kiely____________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 1014________________ APPVH___ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Waterford, Ballynamult, Tooraneena Parish

f120936___ Merry____________________ R-L21/Z253/L895______________ 253-unassigned______ U38VD___ England, South East, Oxfordshire, Eynsham

f109000___ Mulholland_______________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned______ YGJ9A___ Ireland, Munster, Co. Tipperary, Littleton

f143916___ Rodriguez________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-unassigned______ NR6EY___ Spain

f81795____ Whitehead________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ ___ England


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 31, 2012, 05:56:29 PM
I'm a neophyte on historical and archaeological expansions so may be I'm missing the perfect fit.

Since Z253* is pretty scattered and Z253 includes a Spanish contingent as well as a scattered Irish IV and a concentrated (Munster) Irish III contingent my first thoughts would be that Z253's expansion was quite ancient.  However, I'm not getting that with the interclade calculations. I get the beginning of the first millenium BC as being a time that Z255 and Z253's MRCA tribe got going whereas L21 is probably 1500 years or so older.

Is there a culture that was expanding rapidly through France around 1000 BC. Is this the beginning of the Hallstadt people?



Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: MHammers on January 31, 2012, 06:30:01 PM

I'm not as familiar as some with this era, but the Atlantic Bronze age horizon would be a good fit with its connections to Urnfield.  Halstatt culture developed out of late Urnfield around the 8th century BC.  From the illustration on the Urnfield Wikipedia page, the Atlantic world imported more goods, than exported to Urnfield.  So, this is a clue that more people were moving north and west.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: MHammers on January 31, 2012, 06:40:30 PM
I get the beginning of the first millenium BC as being a time that Z255 and Z253's MRCA tribe got going whereas L21 is probably 1500 years or so older.

Mike,

By calculating Z255 and Z253 with the interclade method, is this the oldest possible  bound for Z253?  What about Z253 with the other parallel lineages such as DF23, L513, etc?  Wouldn't they push the node man much farther back in time?  I'm not disagreeing, only trying get an understanding on the concept and how everything fits.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: NealtheRed on January 31, 2012, 06:58:51 PM

I'm not as familiar as some with this era, but the Atlantic Bronze age horizon would be a good fit with its connections to Urnfield.  Halstatt culture developed out of late Urnfield around the 8th century BC.  From the illustration on the Urnfield Wikipedia page, the Atlantic world imported more goods, than exported to Urnfield.  So, this is a clue that more people were moving north and west.

Is Urnfield where we see the Proto-Celts start to emerge as a distinct culture?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 31, 2012, 06:59:07 PM
I'm a neophyte on historical and archaeological expansions so may be I'm missing the perfect fit.

Since Z253* is pretty scattered and Z253 includes a Spanish contingent as well as a scattered Irish IV and a concentrated (Munster) Irish III contingent my first thoughts would be that Z253's expansion was quite ancient.  However, I'm not getting that with the interclade calculations. I get the beginning of the first millenium BC as being a time that Z255 and Z253's MRCA tribe got going whereas L21 is probably 1500 years or so older.

Is there a culture that was expanding rapidly through France around 1000 BC. Is this the beginning of the Hallstadt people?



Around 1300-750BC the area is really in what has been termed the Atlantic Bronze Age.  From 750BC we are in the Hallstatt C phase.  Neither is really seen as large scale migration and conquest these days.  However, that doesnt rule out small scale movement.  The Hallstatt and La Tene cultures tended formerly to be hyped up as conquerors etc but in truth in many places all we see is adoption of metalwork and art styles and perhaps some behavoural traits but with most stuff remaining local indigenous in nature.  As such they are no different from the Atlantic Bronze Age.  If the bar for detecting migration is lowered to only require trends in metalworking then there is no reason to focus on the La Tene and Hallstatt periods.  


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 31, 2012, 07:01:25 PM

I'm not as familiar as some with this era, but the Atlantic Bronze age horizon would be a good fit with its connections to Urnfield.  Halstatt culture developed out of late Urnfield around the 8th century BC.  From the illustration on the Urnfield Wikipedia page, the Atlantic world imported more goods, than exported to Urnfield.  So, this is a clue that more people were moving north and west.
The old school idea is urnfield leads to Hallstatt C leads to Hallstatt D leads to La Tene.  However, it just doesnt really stack up in terms of Celtic ethnogenesis and with every passing year it is less and less believed.  Certainly it might be part of the story but its not the whole thing. 
Is Urnfield where we see the Proto-Celts start to emerge as a distinct culture?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 31, 2012, 07:59:48 PM
I get the beginning of the first millenium BC as being a time that Z255 and Z253's MRCA tribe got going whereas L21 is probably 1500 years or so older.
By calculating Z255 and Z253 with the interclade method, is this the oldest possible  bound for Z253?  What about Z253 with the other parallel lineages such as DF23, L513, etc?  Wouldn't they push the node man much farther back in time?  I'm not disagreeing, only trying get an understanding on the concept and how everything fits.
No. The youngest interclade nodal Most Recent Common Ancestor for a pair of subclades sets the maximum likely age for either SNP's MRCA. As long as the SNPs are parallel we know the interclade nodal man had to be L21*, therefore both Z253 and Z255 must be younger.

The older interclade nodal MRCAs push back the parent clade, L21 in this case. The DF23 lineage seems to be the one that branched off first and therefore, in pair with other SNPs, sets the mininum age for the parent, L21, back.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on January 31, 2012, 08:01:51 PM
R-Z253 is a rapidly growing subclade. There were a number of positive results today among men with British Isles ancestry or British Isles surnames.

Looks like a reasonable gamble for R-L21 guys looking for that possible downstream SNP.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 31, 2012, 08:03:20 PM
Around 1300-750BC the area is really in what has been termed the Atlantic Bronze Age.  From 750BC we are in the Hallstatt C phase.  Neither is really seen as large scale migration and conquest these days.  However, that doesnt rule out small scale movement. ...
Since we are talking about Most Recent Common Ancestor ages, we are talking about individuals so all that is required is that we see some individuals who were sending descendants in multiple directions and either had some significant advantage or were very lucky... or both.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 31, 2012, 08:06:09 PM
R-Z253 is a rapidly growing subclade. There were a number of positive results today among men with British Isles ancestry or British Isles surnames.

Looks like a reasonable gamble for R-L21 guys looking for that possible downstream SNP.
Yes, I think Z253, DF21, then DF23, Z255 and L513 in that order are all prospects for L21* folks. All are over a couple of thousand years old and all have no one single STR off-modal that is golden. L513's 617>=13 maybe close to that and DF23's 481>22.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: MHammers on January 31, 2012, 09:31:44 PM
No. The youngest interclade nodal Most Recent Common Ancestor for a pair of subclades sets the maximum likely age for either SNP's MRCA. As long as the SNPs are parallel we know the interclade nodal man had to be L21*, therefore both Z253 and Z255 must be younger.

The older interclade nodal MRCAs push back the parent clade, L21 in this case. The DF23 lineage seems to be the one that branched off first and therefore, in pair with other SNPs, sets the mininum age for the parent, L21, back.

Ok, thanks.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: A.D. on February 02, 2012, 03:00:17 PM
I Don't know if it's relevant but I was was just reading about the  'Protestant Plantation of Ireland@ from Scotland. Apparently in the 16th century more Scots to Scandinavia and Poland than to Ireland America was  another destination via Spain.
rms2 asked a question about this in regards to Z253 would this have anything to do with it. I certianly didn't know this. The numbers involved were 35,00+.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: A.D. on February 02, 2012, 03:04:42 PM
Sorry 35,000+


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on February 08, 2012, 09:10:59 PM
I notice that R-Z253 (L226-) is growing rapidly. Interestingly, there is at least one haplotype in the bunch (Mulholland, kit 109000) that bears at least a superficial resemblance to my own, with 390=23 and 385=11-11. That's not much to go on, but it might be worthwhile for me to order Z253.



Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on February 12, 2012, 11:20:56 PM
I notice that R-Z253 (L226-) is growing rapidly. Interestingly, there is at least one haplotype in the bunch (Mulholland, kit 109000) that bears at least a superficial resemblance to my own, with 390=23 and 385=11-11. That's not much to go on, but it might be worthwhile for me to order Z253.
There is a guy named Murta or Murtaugh (on the L21 Yahoo group) who dug up a bunch of folks and is after them to get tested.

Besides the Irish III and IV guys, there are a couple of other clusters who appear to have Z253+

253-1117: 511=11 (557=17 449>=30 442=13 439>=13 464x=14,$,16,$) {Z253} [Butler,Canady,Farrell,Reynolds,Robertson]
253-1414: 487=14 437=14 389i=14 534>=16 (456=15) {Z253 L554}
253-1130: 385=11,11 449>=30 576>=19 {Z253}
253-1518: 392>=15 448<=18 557>=17 444>=13 (607<=14) {Z253} [McCracken]
253-1211: 385a=12/13 439=11 447=24 449>=30 537=11 481<=20 (459=10,10) {Z253} [Spanish surnames]

The 253-1117 looks to be pretty big.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on February 17, 2012, 08:02:46 PM
We added a couple of Englishmen to the growing Z253+ (L226-) pile this evening: Berriman, kit 41327, Ysearch MRJ55, and Dredge, kit 63623, Ysearch ARERF.

Maybe I should have written "Britons" rather than "Englishmen".



Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 17, 2012, 08:28:14 PM
Z253 is fascinating.  Irish III, Irish IV, the Iberian cluster and many others too.  I feel like Atlantic France would be in the centre of its gravity and would also explain why a clade with so many 'Norman' names like Irish IV has this SNP.  Have many French been tested for Z253?  It seems unlikely to me that Pyrenean Spain and the isles can have a significant amount of this SNP but not France in between.  Not impossible but unlikely IMO. 


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on February 17, 2012, 08:30:49 PM
Z253 is fascinating.  Irish III, Irish IV, the Iberian cluster and many others too.  I feel like Atlantic France would be in the centre of its gravity and would also explain why a clade with so many 'Norman' names like Irish IV has this SNP.  Have many French been tested for Z253?  It seems unlikely to me that Pyrenean Spain and the isles can have a significant amount of this SNP but not France in between.  Not impossible but unlikely IMO. 

I haven't done a detailed check, but I don't think many of our Frenchmen have been tested for it. I suggested to one that he try it. Perhaps I'll send out an email to the others, as well.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on February 17, 2012, 08:40:36 PM
I just sent a bulk email to all the guys in our France category urging them to test for both Z253 and DF23, if they haven't already. Hopefully at least some of them will. I used one of those online translators to send a French version, since I don't know much French, and some of our guys don't know much English.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on March 11, 2012, 12:07:39 PM
We just got a couple of newly-minted French R-Z253 (L226-): Bellieres and Le Bras, who are in the R-Z253 (L226-) category at the R-L21 Plus Project now.

So, now Z253 has broken into France. The first two of many?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 12, 2012, 06:40:23 PM
We just got a couple of newly-minted French R-Z253 (L226-): Bellieres and Le Bras, who are in the R-Z253 (L226-) category at the R-L21 Plus Project now.

So, now Z253 has broken into France. The first two of many?
France could be thick with Z253. With Z253 in Switzerland, Spain and the Isles, some had to get lost in France....   or maybe that was home.

I looked at the Z253 STRs and including the French and I thought I found a pattern, but it is so sketchy, people just need to test for the SNP.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 12, 2012, 06:43:26 PM
We just got a couple of newly-minted French R-Z253 (L226-): Bellieres ..
Has fE5371 Bellieres tested for L226?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on March 12, 2012, 08:00:45 PM
We just got a couple of newly-minted French R-Z253 (L226-): Bellieres ..
Has fE5371 Bellieres tested for L226?

No, but his haplotype isn't anything like the L226+ haplotypes.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 12, 2012, 08:54:55 PM
We just got a couple of newly-minted French R-Z253 (L226-): Bellieres and Le Bras, who are in the R-Z253 (L226-) category at the R-L21 Plus Project now.

So, now Z253 has broken into France. The first two of many?
France could be thick with Z253. With Z253 in Switzerland, Spain and the Isles, some had to get lost in France....   or maybe that was home.

I looked at the Z253 STRs and including the French and I thought I found a pattern, but it is so sketchy, people just need to test for the SNP.


A pattern? Now Mike, you cant say something like that and then not tell us!


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: JeanL on March 13, 2012, 03:11:31 PM
From this recently published study:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/12/molbev.mss091.abstract

On the supplementary table-S3a list the following frequencies for R-L21 in different Basques and nonBasque populations:

R-L21

Gascony

Bigorre: 3/44
Bearn: 8/56
Chalosse: 6/58

French Basque

Lapurdi/Baztan: 12/44
Lapurdi Nafarroa: 9/66
Zuberoa: 3/53

Navarra

Roncal and Salazar valleys: 11/53
Central Western Nafarroa:9/60
North Western Nafarroa: 5/51

Spanish Basque

Gipuzkoa: 9/47
SouthWestern Gipuzkoa: 13/57
Araba: 11/51
Bizkaia: 7/57
Western Bizkaia: 2/19

North Spain

Cantabria: 0/18
Burgos: 0/20
La Rioja: 6/54
North Aragon: 1/27


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on March 13, 2012, 07:15:00 PM
Wow!

Those are some pretty respectable percentages among the Gascons and Basques.

Hmmm . . .


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 13, 2012, 08:02:16 PM
From this recently published study:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/12/molbev.mss091.abstract

On the supplementary table-S3a list the following frequencies for R-L21 in different Basques and nonBasque populations:

R-L21

Gascony

Bigorre: 3/44
Bearn: 8/56
Chalosse: 6/58

French Basque

Lapurdi/Baztan: 12/44
Lapurdi Nafarroa: 9/66
Zuberoa: 3/53

Navarra

Roncal and Salazar valleys: 11/53
Central Western Nafarroa:9/60
North Western Nafarroa: 5/51

Spanish Basque

Gipuzkoa: 9/47
SouthWestern Gipuzkoa: 13/57
Araba: 11/51
Bizkaia: 7/57
Western Bizkaia: 2/19

North Spain

Cantabria: 0/18
Burgos: 0/20
La Rioja: 6/54
North Aragon: 1/27


Kind of confirms that L21 is far higher among basques than most Iberian folks.  I am surprised by the low result in Cantabria.  Myres used Santander which is in Cantabria and got the Iberian peak there for L21 (he didnt test the Basques).  The project map also has a peak in the same zone


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: IALEM on March 13, 2012, 08:23:41 PM
I think it confirms what we already knew, that Basques are closer to Gascons than to Iberians, and that they are more representative of a SW France (ancient Aquitanian) population than Iberians. It is in concordance with the theory of a late arrival of Basques to modern Spanish Basque country.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: NealtheRed on March 15, 2012, 10:10:34 PM
We just got a couple of newly-minted French R-Z253 (L226-): Bellieres and Le Bras, who are in the R-Z253 (L226-) category at the R-L21 Plus Project now.

So, now Z253 has broken into France. The first two of many?

To be honest, I am pulling for Z253 on the Continent, and am pleased to see it is found in France, Switzerland, and Spain.

Mike's numbers say Z253 is a close cousin to Z255, so more Continentals can improve our chances at finding a common ancestor there!


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: OConnor on March 19, 2012, 07:30:34 AM
The reconquest of Spain from the Moors involved many groups including Normans.
Could most Spanish L21 like L226 have entered Spain at this time from France?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: IALEM on March 19, 2012, 08:19:50 AM
The reconquest of Spain from the Moors involved many groups including Normans.
Could most Spanish L21 like L226 have entered Spain at this time from France?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista
It could be for L-21 in regions of Spain in which is found in low percentages. Also some English were involved in the Reconquista, for instance the first christian lord of the castle of Elda (The town I am living presently in SE Spain) was an English knight.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: JeanL on March 19, 2012, 11:10:03 AM
In that case we should expect some significant portions of R-L21 in the Canary Islands, more specifically the Islands of Lazarote and Fuerteventura which were conquered by Normans such as Jean de Bethencourt, Maciot de Bethencourt, etc.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: OConnor on March 19, 2012, 05:38:44 PM
I haven't read up on those Islands.
Perhaps there is, or perhaps there isn't any?

I have heard of one in Sicily.
Though I can't claim this person has a Norman ancestor.

It's just an open question of mine.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: OConnor on March 20, 2012, 08:05:58 AM
In that case we should expect some significant portions of R-L21 in the Canary Islands, more specifically the Islands of Lazarote and Fuerteventura which were conquered by Normans such as Jean de Bethencourt, Maciot de Bethencourt, etc.

Lazarote
As of 2010, a total of 139,000 people lived on Lanzarote[2] which is an increase of 9.4% from 2006 (127,000).[3] The seat of the island government (Cabildo Insular) is in the capital, Arrecife, which has a population of 59,000.[2] The majority of the inhabitants (73.9%) are Spanish, with a sizable number of residents from other European nations, mainly British (4.0%), Germans (2.6%) and Irish (2.5%).[4] Other populous groups include immigrants from Colombia, Morocco, Ecuador, Western Africa, China and India, which constitute a large proportion of the remaining 15.6% of the population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanzarote

I would guess that Lazarote could have some L21.
Though they could have Spanish, Irish, German, British or Norman roots.

There is a Canary Islands DNA Project.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Guanches-CanaryIslandsDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: ironroad41 on April 21, 2012, 09:28:13 AM
 I just tested positive for Z253 and so did the Clan Gregor moderator.  My haplotype is unlike any other tested so far.  My other handle is Mcg11.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 21, 2012, 01:18:08 PM
I just tested positive for Z253 and so did the Clan Gregor moderator.  My haplotype is unlike any other tested so far.  My other handle is Mcg11.
Congratulations.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 23, 2012, 11:23:54 AM
I looked at your age estimate for Z253 Mike, and I know it is consistent with your other work, but as I've noted before, I have a great deal of difficulty reconciling the haplotype I have z5hg3 (Ysearch) with your age estimates of this subclade.  I know I don't fit the mold, but I have been tested positive for this SNP.

Ironroad, here are the folks closest to you in the L21 file.  They are at GDs of 4 through 14 to you.  Notice they seem to fit in to Z253 varieties (clusters) so it appears like the STRs are aligning with Z253 for these folks.

f35981____ McGregor_________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1223____________ Z5HG3___ Scotland, Tayside, Perthshire and Kinross, Kinloch Rannoch, Aulich
f62717____ Turner___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1223____________ BXZDC___ zzzUnkOrigin
fN14578___ zzzUnknown_______________ R-L21________________________ 253-1223____________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f15796____ Sammons__________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1223____________ K3UA9___ England
f165405___ Darnell__________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1223____________ U3C86___ England
f166686___ Healy____________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1223____________ VUD7A___ Ireland
f86086____ Kiely____________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253- unassigned_____ APPVH___ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Waterford, Ballynamult, Tooraneena Parish
f102526___ Mangum___________________ zzPredicted__________________ 253-1711-M__________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f178942___ Hall_____________________ R-L21________________________ zzL21unassigned_____ ___ zzzUnkOrigin


The first four of you (McGregor, Turner, zzzUnknown,  Sammons) are all 393=12 390=23 391=10 607=16 520=19. Darnell and Healy have the same signature except they are 393=13.  To me, this imples that the mutation to 393=12 was the most recent of the signature.

Do these geographic locations and surnames mean anything?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mark Jost on April 23, 2012, 12:20:02 PM
I just tested positive for Z253 and so did the Clan Gregor moderator.  My haplotype is unlike any other tested so far.  My other handle is Mcg11.

Congrates on Finding your new SNP Mcg11!!!

What do you think about the Iberian connection?

Also how was last years wine?

MJost


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: ironroad41 on April 23, 2012, 04:24:47 PM
I looked at your age estimate for Z253 Mike, and I know it is consistent with your other work, but as I've noted before, I have a great deal of difficulty reconciling the haplotype I have z5hg3 (Ysearch) with your age estimates of this subclade.  I know I don't fit the mold, but I have been tested positive for this SNP.

Ironroad, here are the folks closest to you in the L21 file.  They are at GDs of 4 through 14 to you.  Notice they seem to fit in to Z253 varieties (clusters) so it appears like the STRs are aligning with Z253 for these folks.

f35981____ McGregor_________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1223____________ Z5HG3___ Scotland, Tayside, Perthshire and Kinross, Kinloch Rannoch, Aulich
f62717____ Turner___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1223____________ BXZDC___ zzzUnkOrigin
fN14578___ zzzUnknown_______________ R-L21________________________ 253-1223____________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f15796____ Sammons__________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1223____________ K3UA9___ England
f165405___ Darnell__________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1223____________ U3C86___ England
f166686___ Healy____________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1223____________ VUD7A___ Ireland
f86086____ Kiely____________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253- unassigned_____ APPVH___ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Waterford, Ballynamult, Tooraneena Parish
f102526___ Mangum___________________ zzPredicted__________________ 253-1711-M__________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f178942___ Hall_____________________ R-L21________________________ zzL21unassigned_____ ___ zzzUnkOrigin


The first four of you (McGregor, Turner, zzzUnknown,  Sammons) are all 393=12 390=23 391=10 607=16 520=19. Darnell and Healy have the same signature except they are 393=13.  To me, this imples that the mutation to 393=12 was the most recent of the signature.

Do these geographic locations and surnames mean anything?

I can tell you about Turner, he is a NPE.  His father was apparently a brother to my ggggggf c. 1700 AD.  I did a TMRCA and it turned out close between him and me.  This was a brother of my direct ancestor who settled in NC c. 1690+.   I doubt if he has been tested Z253, but I'm sure he would be positive.

The others have no direct relationship to me that I am aware of.  I have done a TMRCA between the Clan Gregor Moderator and  myself and the Clan Gregor chieftain.  I used two approaches: for the moderator I compared 59 STR''s and used Chandlers and the set of 110 rates from 2011. I got c. 200 AD for Chandlers rates and c. 550BC for the 110 data set.  For the chieftain, I followed Busbys recommendation and only looked at the 13 slowest FtDNA markers which we differ at two: 388 and 495.   I got a TMRCA of c. 13k BC!! I personally believe that the Chief is of Hallstatt origin who migrated to what is now Belgium and then were ousted by the Romans and they migrated to Ireland, where they became what is now called South Irish and later Dal Riadans.

For the latter result to make any sense, some of the following has to be true: 1.  There were at least two waves of migration out of Iberia which eventually ended up in the British Isles.  The first had to be pretty early.   Robert L. Tarin, Jr. has collected a lot of data on Iberia.   The frequency of 393 = 12 in early Iberians is almost 9% while later groups of R1b show only a 3% level.  For some of us, I think we have carried that mutation for a long, long time?  Departure from Iberia could have been a complex route with even a stop in doggerland as a possibility.  This at the present time is pure speculation on my part.  That said, I will continue to argue that my haplotype is different than most R-L21's and began quite early in the R-L21 cycle.  JMHO


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: razyn on April 23, 2012, 07:04:05 PM
The frequency of 393 = 12 in early Iberians is almost 9% while later groups of R1b show only a 3% level.  For some of us, I think we have carried that mutation for a long, long time?  Departure from Iberia could have been a complex route with even a stop in doggerland as a possibility.  This at the present time is pure speculation on my part.

According to the famously un-juried Wikipedia entry, "Doggerland became submerged beneath the North Sea, cutting off what was previously the British peninsula from the European mainland by around 6500 BCE."  Given that you are talking about a clade that didn't exist (to arrive in its Iberian point of departure) until a few thousand years later, what were they doing during their Doggerland stopover... doggerpaddling?

This is a wild exaggeration, but the idea is that the math of one theory can't possibly be bent to fit the other.  So one theory or the other is clearly (and badly) mistaken.  For the time being, anyway, I think it's Mike who has the more credible evidence.  Not that our voting on it is going to resolve the question -- but there is a question.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 23, 2012, 07:16:31 PM
....  I have done a TMRCA between the Clan Gregor Moderator and  myself and the Clan Gregor chieftain.  I used two approaches: for the moderator I compared 59 STR''s and used Chandlers and the set of 110 rates from 2011. I got c. 200 AD for Chandlers rates and c. 550BC for the 110 data set.  For the chieftain, I followed Busbys recommendation and only looked at the 13 slowest FtDNA markers which we differ at two: 388 and 495.   I got a TMRCA of c. 13k BC!! I personally believe that the Chief is of Hallstatt origin who migrated to what is now Belgium and then were ousted by the Romans and they migrated to Ireland, where they became what is now called South Irish and later Dal Riadans.....
Are the Gregor Moderator and Chieftain Z253?  If they aren't, your relationship to them has to be at least two thousand years ago.

As far as using only the 13 slowest markers, per Busby, I don't recommend that at all. That's just not enough markers and particularly since you are looking for relationships in the historical timeframe I don't think the linear duration of STRs will be a big problem in your analysis.



Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mark Jost on April 23, 2012, 08:36:41 PM
....  I have done a TMRCA between the Clan Gregor Moderator and  myself and the Clan Gregor chieftain.  I used two approaches: for the moderator I compared 59 STR''s and used Chandlers and the set of 110 rates from 2011. I got c. 200 AD for Chandlers rates and c. 550BC for the 110 data set.  For the chieftain, I followed Busbys recommendation and only looked at the 13 slowest FtDNA markers which we differ at two: 388 and 495.   I got a TMRCA of c. 13k BC!! I personally believe that the Chief is of Hallstatt origin who migrated to what is now Belgium and then were ousted by the Romans and they migrated to Ireland, where they became what is now called South Irish and later Dal Riadans.....
Are the Gregor Moderator and Chieftain Z253?  If they aren't, your relationship to them has to be at least two thousand years ago.

As far as using only the 13 slowest markers, per Busby, I don't recommend that at all. That's just not enough markers and particularly since you are looking for relationships in the historical timeframe I don't think the linear duration of STRs will be a big problem in your analysis.

@IronR, Mike shows the age of Z253 is around 400BC to 0AD leaving about 1500 years to L21?  Doggerland disappeared about 6,500 or 6,200 BCE. L11 is only about 4500 years old. I do not see Doggerland as a possible route.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: ironroad41 on April 24, 2012, 07:04:19 AM
....  I have done a TMRCA between the Clan Gregor Moderator and  myself and the Clan Gregor chieftain.  I used two approaches: for the moderator I compared 59 STR''s and used Chandlers and the set of 110 rates from 2011. I got c. 200 AD for Chandlers rates and c. 550BC for the 110 data set.  For the chieftain, I followed Busbys recommendation and only looked at the 13 slowest FtDNA markers which we differ at two: 388 and 495.   I got a TMRCA of c. 13k BC!! I personally believe that the Chief is of Hallstatt origin who migrated to what is now Belgium and then were ousted by the Romans and they migrated to Ireland, where they became what is now called South Irish and later Dal Riadans.....
Are the Gregor Moderator and Chieftain Z253?  If they aren't, your relationship to them has to be at least two thousand years ago.

As far as using only the 13 slowest markers, per Busby, I don't recommend that at all. That's just not enough markers and particularly since you are looking for relationships in the historical timeframe I don't think the linear duration of STRs will be a big problem in your analysis.


The moderator is the chief is not, and therefore the Ian Cam are not.  I agree with your observation re: the time of the founding of Clan Gregor.  I do not need to worry about linearity in that time frame, just have to be careful to use unique mutational events and none of the faster or more complex dys loci, such as CDY a,b and 385a,b or the 464 series.  Within the 700 years or so, I am quite confident there have been no hidden mutations.  I try to keep my TMRCA estimates under 1K years to minimize that problem.  I believe it is OK to hop-scotch back in time as I did when I converged the Buchanans, MacMillans, R1b MacDonalds and Clan Gregor back to the South Irish in Ireland c. 50 to 200 BC.

Note:  supporting the concept of random mutations, one Ian Cam has a 426 mutation.  I usually don't include his haplotype in the set I analyze because it adds about 200 years to the TMRCA, since I have only about 40 independent entries.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: ironroad41 on April 24, 2012, 07:11:58 AM
The frequency of 393 = 12 in early Iberians is almost 9% while later groups of R1b show only a 3% level.  For some of us, I think we have carried that mutation for a long, long time?  Departure from Iberia could have been a complex route with even a stop in doggerland as a possibility.  This at the present time is pure speculation on my part.

According to the famously un-juried Wikipedia entry, "Doggerland became submerged beneath the North Sea, cutting off what was previously the British peninsula from the European mainland by around 6500 BCE."  Given that you are talking about a clade that didn't exist (to arrive in its Iberian point of departure) until a few thousand years later, what were they doing during their Doggerland stopover... doggerpaddling?

This is a wild exaggeration, but the idea is that the math of one theory can't possibly be bent to fit the other.  So one theory or the other is clearly (and badly) mistaken.  For the time being, anyway, I think it's Mike who has the more credible evidence.  Not that our voting on it is going to resolve the question -- but there is a question.

I thought that "red flag" would catch your eye.  Yes there is a question of how you model all this.  As mike has said, even the experts can't decide on the appropriate model.  I spent a lot of time on the Busby paper this winter and also pondered again the Zhivotovsky conundrum.  At the present time, I don't see evidence that the Drunkards Walk model is a good model of the Y STR mutational process.  I would be interested in you presenting the "credible evidence" mike has and your reasons for the Variance/ASD diversity model as the best model of this process.

I believe it is healthy to review the basic assumptions implied in this work and compare it carefully to whatever data we have.  I would like to keep personal opinion out of the process.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: ironroad41 on April 24, 2012, 07:24:48 AM
....  I have done a TMRCA between the Clan Gregor Moderator and  myself and the Clan Gregor chieftain.  I used two approaches: for the moderator I compared 59 STR''s and used Chandlers and the set of 110 rates from 2011. I got c. 200 AD for Chandlers rates and c. 550BC for the 110 data set.  For the chieftain, I followed Busbys recommendation and only looked at the 13 slowest FtDNA markers which we differ at two: 388 and 495.   I got a TMRCA of c. 13k BC!! I personally believe that the Chief is of Hallstatt origin who migrated to what is now Belgium and then were ousted by the Romans and they migrated to Ireland, where they became what is now called South Irish and later Dal Riadans.....
Are the Gregor Moderator and Chieftain Z253?  If they aren't, your relationship to them has to be at least two thousand years ago.

As far as using only the 13 slowest markers, per Busby, I don't recommend that at all. That's just not enough markers and particularly since you are looking for relationships in the historical timeframe I don't think the linear duration of STRs will be a big problem in your analysis.

@IronR, Mike shows the age of Z253 is around 400BC to 0AD leaving about 1500 years to L21?  Doggerland disappeared about 6,500 or 6,200 BCE. L11 is only about 4500 years old. I do not see Doggerland as a possible route.

The dates you present are derived using the current Variance/ASD model.  I think the data is suggesting that hidden mutations shorten the estimates while multisteps and multiple entries of a mutation lengthen it.  Further, in the ASD math, the effect of multisteps is even worse, greatly extending the time estimate.  A multistep of 4 will have 16 times more effect on the calculation than a single step would.

It is the confluence of these effects: hidden mutations on one side and multisteps and highly correlated data sets on the other which are confusing the issue and warping time.

I think Mike and I agree that over time spans of less than 1k, these effects can be compensated for.  For other, longer time frame issues, we have a problem I believe in the accuracy/precision of the current estimates.

A final thought is that I'm not fully sure that there aren't other issues.  An apparent change in data rate with modal value; specifically 388 in I1 and J2.  An apparent increase in the number of mutations for some haplotypes subjected to large physical displacements,, e.g. from one continent to another.  All of this needs to be understood, compensated for if possible and included in how we model this process.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 24, 2012, 11:09:41 AM
....  I have done a TMRCA between the Clan Gregor Moderator and  myself and the Clan Gregor chieftain.  I used two approaches: for the moderator I compared 59 STR''s and used Chandlers and the set of 110 rates from 2011. I got c. 200 AD for Chandlers rates and c. 550BC for the 110 data set.  For the chieftain, I followed Busbys recommendation and only looked at the 13 slowest FtDNA markers which we differ at two: 388 and 495.   I got a TMRCA of c. 13k BC!! I personally believe that the Chief is of Hallstatt origin who migrated to what is now Belgium and then were ousted by the Romans and they migrated to Ireland, where they became what is now called South Irish and later Dal Riadans.....
Are the Gregor Moderator and Chieftain Z253?  If they aren't, your relationship to them has to be at least two thousand years ago.

As far as using only the 13 slowest markers, per Busby, I don't recommend that at all. That's just not enough markers and particularly since you are looking for relationships in the historical timeframe I don't think the linear duration of STRs will be a big problem in your analysis.

@IronR, Mike shows the age of Z253 is around 400BC to 0AD leaving about 1500 years to L21?  Doggerland disappeared about 6,500 or 6,200 BCE. L11 is only about 4500 years old. I do not see Doggerland as a possible route.
The dates you present are derived using the current Variance/ASD model.  I think the data is suggesting that hidden mutations shorten the estimates while multisteps and multiple entries of a mutation lengthen it.  Further, in the ASD math, the effect of multisteps is even worse, greatly extending the time estimate.  A multistep of 4 will have 16 times more effect on the calculation than a single step would.
......
I think Mike and I agree that over time spans of less than 1k, these effects can be compensated for.  For other, longer time frame issues, we have a problem I believe in the accuracy/precision of the current estimates....
The dates I've calculated are based on Ken Nordtvedt's Generation 7 methodology. Ken is a former National Science Board member, appointed by President Reagan. Ken is particularly known for his mathematical abilities.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Nordtvedt

As an alternative method, using STR diversity "maximum likelihood" (but not statistical variance), Marko Heinila's esimates for R-L21, P312, U106 come up similar to Ken's. The interclade age for P312 and U106 is much younger than Doggerland so Z253 has to be younger than that.

I think these methods are useful for longer than 1000 years, for sure, but I don't think they are precise. Ken's methods do a nice job of giving you error ranges. Vince Vizachero has said that STR diversity is useful (linearly with time) until you get up into old haplogroup groups and he cited 25k years as an example. This is posted over in the STR Wars thread.

It is a valid argument for you to say the mutation rates that Marko and Ken use are incorrect and they should be using the evolutionary rates, rather than germ-line.  Ken is vehement in his disdain for the evolutionary rates but it is clearly an issue of disagreement. However, there is a problem with using the evolutionary rates. Using Marko and Ken's methods, they do get Hg's, like Hg I (that is pretty much European restricted) that are way too old if you use the evolutionary rates... way too old for the archaeologically documented appearance of modern man (homo sapiens sapiens) in Europe.   You are stuck in logic trap.   Your only way out is for you to argue that we must use one set of mutation rates for one haplogroup and another set for another... but we are all homo sapiens sapiens, more alike than different and the Y SNPs marking the haplogroups are just "junk DNA."  

 .... well, I guess there is the fallback that Busby used as their second line of defense - STRs are unreliable so we can't tell anything from them.  Simulations on real data show that STRs do have some consistency, though.  No one is saying they are perfectly consistent and improvements in modeling and selection shouldn't be made.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 24, 2012, 11:32:15 AM
As mike has said, even the experts can't decide on the appropriate model.  I spent a lot of time on the Busby paper this winter and also pondered again the Zhivotovsky conundrum. 
There are several mathematical methodologies that produce similar results so I do want to be clear that there are alternative methods that seem to support each other in TMRCA calculations.

What is not agreed up on are the mutation rates, although the leading hobbyist-scientists seem to come down pretty much on the side of the germ-line rates...  this would include Chandler, Nordtvedt, Heinila and Klyosov. I don't know if Vizachero and Dienekes are scientists but they also are against using the evolutionary rates rather than the germ-line rates.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Maliclavelli on April 24, 2012, 11:55:22 AM
I repeat:
This posting of mine, posted here and published also by Dienekes, is waiting some response, above all from Anatole Klyosov:
An interesting haplotype of R1a1a (M17) has been found in the paper of Gunjan Sharma et al., Genetic Affinities of the Central Indian Tribal Population, PLoS one, February 2012:
DYS19=18
DYS385=14-17
DYS389=15-30
DYS390=28
DYS391=12
DYS392=14
DYS393=13
DYS437=17
DYS439=13
DYS448=22
DYS456=17
DYS458=17
At first sight it could seem we have found the R-M420 not found so far in India with its DYS492=14, which presupposes a 13, whereas all the other R1a1a haplotypes have 11 or 10 and 12 from 11, but this haplotype has been tested for M17, then it isn’t an R-M420. Also the extremely large variance of the other markers makes us think that this value 14 derives from a modal 11 (or what was the modal at the origin of this subclade). Then again all the discourses about “modal” and “variance”, as I have supported many times, are worth nothing.
But I think it would be something to say about the TMRCA of 10.97+/-1.86 kya (25 y for generation) even though calculated by the Zhivotovsky rate. It is clear that these R1a1a-s belong to different clades and the massive presence of the clade most usually found falsifies the calculation. It is clear that this haplotype is an outlier, but for this more interesting, because testifies all the mutation gone mostly for the tangent and not around the modal. If we calculate the intraclade between two of these haplotypes, for instance with this closer to the modal: 15, 11-14, 14-32, 24,10, 11, 12,14,10, 20, 15,16 we have 32 mutations. Also using the usual mutation rate of 0,0022, we have:
(454x32)/28=518
518x25=12,950
and I have used a generation of 25 years and not 32 as I use usually, and I haven’t considered other mutations around the modal.
Conclusions? The ancientness of the haplogroups is much much more than it is usually thought.

My calculation, using a germ line mutation rate, has reached results not different from the evolutionary rate of the paper, and the mistake of the paper was that of calculating the variance between haplotypes mostly of the same descent and only one (and another, but closer to the overwhelming group) outlier. The problem is to find the outliers which demonstrate all the mutations happened, and also this have had of course mutations around the modal etc. Then the evolutionary mutation rate is the unique to consider this. Also Mr Nordtvedt said many times that some hg.I of his had an  ancientness of 6000 years, but the node with the closest branch was at least 20000 years old. It happened simply that the intermediate haplotypes died, but, fortunately, it happens that sometimes someone survives.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 24, 2012, 12:03:30 PM
I repeat:
This posting of mine, posted here and published also by Dienekes, is waiting some response, above all from Anatole Klyosov:
An interesting haplotype of R1a1a (M17) has been found in the paper of Gunjan Sharma et al., Genetic Affinities of the Central Indian Tribal Population, PLoS one, February 2012:....

Using a single example to argue against large scale studies and mathematical analysis is a poor argument technique known as the "exception fallacy." http://changingminds.org/disciplines/argument/fallacies/exception.htm

Why are we posting an R1a1a question in the Z226 thread?  

RMS2, can you move the side discussions on STR diversity, TMRCA methodologies and mutation rates over to a separate thread? Please just do it on the fly as they come up. You can use the STR Wars thread if you want although I really didn't intend for it to get into mutation rates.  We just need to have a place to steer these side conversations.  I don't plan on letting some of these items go unchallenged and I'm sure others want to challenge me... that's fine but let's put those things in their own thread.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Maliclavelli on April 24, 2012, 12:09:20 PM
Which fallacy is yours? That of the authority or, better, that of the moderator?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 24, 2012, 12:10:49 PM
Which fallacy is yours? That of the authority or, better, that of the moderator?

You are the giant slayer who can read others thoughts and speak on behalf of those you don't know.   I don't see why you need to ask questions since you know the answers.

Please start up a separate thread to explain your thinking and challenges. Some of this is completely off topic.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Maliclavelli on April 24, 2012, 12:21:33 PM
Here another fallacy, the “off topic one”. It remains to you the “fallacy of fallacy”, then, like Hegel taught, you will have reached the irony, Ein Nichtiges an Sich Vernichtendes.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: ironroad41 on April 24, 2012, 12:38:09 PM
As mike has said, even the experts can't decide on the appropriate model.  I spent a lot of time on the Busby paper this winter and also pondered again the Zhivotovsky conundrum. 
There are several mathematical methodologies that produce similar results so I do want to be clear that there are alternative methods that seem to support each other in TMRCA calculations.

What is not agreed up on are the mutation rates, although the leading hobbyist-scientists seem to come down pretty much on the side of the germ-line rates...  this would include Chandler, Nordtvedt, Heinila and Klyosov. I don't know if Vizachero and Dienekes are scientists but they also are against using the evolutionary rates rather than the germ-line rates.
I am responding to your previous post and this one.  We are all homosapiens, but what does that mean?  We have many differences due to environment and evolution.  The same is true in this area of study.  If you have accessed the table I referred to you can look at the distribution of 388 for hgs I1, J2, and R1b.  I am emphasizing this dys loci because its behavior can significantly affect the TMRCA estimate.  For this loci Chandler gives a value of .00022 per gen and burgurella .00046.  From the table I note that R1b had approximately 221 mutations out of 22129 entries.  We have no idea how many are unique and how many are inherited.  J2 had 265 out of 915 and I had 2508 out of 5700!  Additionally the data spread is across 5 to 6 values for I and J2 and across essentially 3 values for R1b. In no way can one rate support these data.   Additionally, the variance calculation will show a large contribution to TMRCA due to the very low mutation rate and concomitant long time period expected between mutations at this locus.  No wonder I and J appear older in Kens work.

I really believe you have to get into this level of detail to understand the Y STR mutation process and its current problems.  Most Dys loci who mutate within the modal +/- l generate no appreciable variance and certainly no increase occurs with time as the drunkards walk model suggests.  Most of the variance is generated by multisteps, especially steps greater than 2 and the faster mutators such as CDYa,b.

My conclusion is that the Variance/ASD model does not represent the data properties.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 24, 2012, 01:14:30 PM
I am responding to your previous post and this one.  We are all homosapiens, but what does that mean?  ...
I'll respond over in the STR Wars thread when I get a chance.  We are actually Homo sapiens sapiens...  at least I hope.
Quote
"Modern humans" are defined as the Homo sapiens species, of which the only extant subspecies is known as Homo sapiens sapiens
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 25, 2012, 03:42:23 PM
... . That said, I will continue to argue that my haplotype is different than most R-L21's and began quite early in the R-L21 cycle. JMHO

I copied this from another thread, because it is pertinent to Z253 overall. I think your haplotype demonstrates that you are in an early branch off of from the Irish III and Irish IV lineages within Z253.... and that Z253 is quite old. It can't be older than L21 but it is trending back that way.

...
For what its worth, McGregor, I looked at Mikew L21Ext sheet and selecting only Z253 tested Hts (n=32) here is what I see is that your closest 111 marker Z253 kit is a GD of 29 up to 50 (TMRCA range of 1784 to 3075 years). Most of the markers that you are different are in the 68-111 panel.

No one close to you. Outlier your are until others are found and are Z253 positive. Keep hunting. MJost...


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on April 30, 2012, 07:05:34 AM
R-Z253 (L226-) acquired yet a third French member as of this morning: Grenier (kit 79112, Ysearch 4XHJC). He has no close matches at 67 markers in FTDNA's database. His closest matches at 37 markers are 4 off.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mark Jost on April 30, 2012, 09:28:33 AM
Steve,

f79112 Grenier France EW Fra North & Central
 
is closest GD9/67 with

f41327 Berryman   R-L21/Z253* England IS Eng South West

his next closest starts as GD18.

MJost


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on April 30, 2012, 10:41:59 AM
Steve,

f79112 Grenier France EW Fra North & Central
 
is closest GD9/67 with

f41327 Berryman   R-L21/Z253* England IS Eng South West

his next closest starts as GD18.

MJost


Theoretically, that puts him and Berriman sharing a common ancestor roughly around the time of the Norman Conquest.

That makes sense historically, at least, if Berriman is descended from a Norman or a Breton.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mark Jost on April 30, 2012, 01:40:34 PM
With the dominating surname Grenier in France according to http://worldnames.publicprofiler.org you would have to believe Berryman is French YDNA as Berryman has such a very low numbers in Wales and England.



Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on April 30, 2012, 01:47:33 PM
Here (http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=Grenier&submit=Valider&client=cdip) is a good site for checking French surnames. Notice that Grenier is most common in Seine Maritime in Haute Normandie, so it is evidently a Norman surname.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mark Jost on April 30, 2012, 03:04:45 PM
Now that shows that mainland Normandy in France is a big cluster of Grenier's. Notice the large number in the Southwest Gironde and along a central west to east area.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on April 30, 2012, 03:14:26 PM
Now that shows that mainland Normandy in France is a big cluster of Grenier's. Notice the large number in the Southwest Gironde and along a central west to east area.

I noticed, but Haute Normandie has by far the most Greniers, and, relative to our Grenier, probably the most L21 (although Gironde is probably not lacking in L21 either).

Normandy makes sense historically, as well, given that Berriman and Grenier are haplotype neighbors (I don't want to say "matches" - they aren't all that close).



Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mark Jost on April 30, 2012, 03:43:54 PM
Looking at there marker values, they each have three different markers that do not match but they have many (8) common or same direction off-modal allele values.

I would say yes they are in a border geneological time frame from the same lineage looking at that with fact that they are now the same subclade.



 


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mark Jost on April 30, 2012, 04:13:35 PM
16 of 43 L253*/** that have an identified location are from various areas in Ireland. There is a large important need for Coastal Norman's to be tested.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 14, 2012, 04:43:13 PM
Wow it only gets better, or at least deeper.

Quote from: Greg M
The anonymous researcher and I have been working, with some sample classification assistance from Rich Rocca and Ray Banks, to analyze the latest data from the 1000 Genomes Project as it pertains to R-L21. The analysis has allowed identification of two groups under Z253.

    One of the groups joins NA06984 (CEU, Utahn of European ancestry) and HG01500 (IBS, Iberian from Spain). There are six high-quality candidate variants that these samples seem to share. One of these is already in FTDNA's ymap as L1066. The other variants have been assigned names Z2182 through Z2186.
    The second group joins HG01503 and HG01675 (both IBS, Iberian from Spain). There are 21 high-quality candidate variants that these samples seem to share. One, DF73, has been explored by the anonymous researcher, but he did not find any derived individuals based on testing a very small number of separate (i.e. non-1000 Genomes Project) Z253+ samples, so this remains an unconfirmed candidate variant at present. The other candidate variants have been given names Z2187 through Z2206. Because of the large number of variants shared by these samples, it is quite possible they may span a spectrum of frequency with many being "semi-private".

An updated phylogeny depicting the proposed placement of these candidate variants is at https://www.box.com/s/1384cf752f6acbc5be03 . The newest samples that have been added with the first batch of "Phase II" data from the 1000 Genomes Project are highlighted in red.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/message/8768

Thanks once again to the anonymous researcher and Richard R along with Greg M and Ray Banks. You are better than the "dream team".


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on July 25, 2012, 10:02:12 PM
I finally moved all the guys in that Spanish cluster with 385=12-14 and 459=10-10 (among other identifying markers) to the R-Z253 category. Don't know why I waited this long. I think I just kind of forgot about it.

Anyway, one guy who is kind of on the fringe of it, Robles, kit 67597, has ordered Z253.

And I ordered it yesterday myself, which renews my interest in it (unless and until I get a negative result, that is).


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: OConnor on July 26, 2012, 09:40:36 AM
Good Luck Rich.

Though I am happy to have your company at DF13*

I'm not sure whats next for me.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on July 26, 2012, 10:00:28 AM
Good Luck Rich.

Though I am happy to have your company at DF13*

I'm not sure whats next for me.

Thanks, Mike. I'm not sure what my chances of being Z253+ are. Probably not good.

Thus far, you and I have kept pace since 2006 with always the same results. I remember you were one of the first to congratulate me when I got my first 37-marker results and was told I was "R1b1".



Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 26, 2012, 10:55:14 AM
Good Luck Rich.

Though I am happy to have your company at DF13*

I'm not sure whats next for me.

Thanks, Mike. I'm not sure what my chances of being Z253+ are. Probably not good.

Thus far, you and I have kept pace since 2006 with always the same results. I remember you were one of the first to congratulate me when I got my first 37-marker results and was told I was "R1b1".

Z253 is full of surprises so you never know...


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: OConnor on July 26, 2012, 11:14:32 AM
yes Richard i remember meeting you in the FTDNA Batch forum. I believe you were waiting for your first results. I may have ordered just before you..looking at my order history's ealiest date.. 22/10/2005.

Thanks for all the continuing L21 detective work. I'm sure many of our questions will be answered over time. Probably more complicated questions will arise as a result.





Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on July 26, 2012, 09:23:31 PM
yes Richard i remember meeting you in the FTDNA Batch forum. I believe you were waiting for your first results. I may have ordered just before you..looking at my order history's ealiest date.. 22/10/2005.

Thanks for all the continuing L21 detective work. I'm sure many of our questions will be answered over time. Probably more complicated questions will arise as a result.





You were a good six months ahead of me. I ordered my first 37-marker test in April of 2006 and got the results on 19 May 2006. I remember you already knew you were R1b.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on July 26, 2012, 09:25:56 PM
Good Luck Rich.

Though I am happy to have your company at DF13*

I'm not sure whats next for me.

Thanks, Mike. I'm not sure what my chances of being Z253+ are. Probably not good.

Thus far, you and I have kept pace since 2006 with always the same results. I remember you were one of the first to congratulate me when I got my first 37-marker results and was told I was "R1b1".

Z253 is full of surprises so you never know...

I hope so. It would be nice to get a positive result.

With DF13 I was pretty sure I would be positive. With this one, I just don't know. I kind of have the feeling I will be Z253+, but that could just be wishful thinking trying to masquerade as premonition.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on July 26, 2012, 09:44:50 PM
I noticed some at least superficial similarities between my haplotype and that of Mulholland, Ysearch YGJ9A, kit 10900, who is R-Z253. We're a gd of 26 at 67 markers, but he has 390=23 and 385=11-11, like me. There are plenty of significant differences, of course, but I don't usually find anyone in any of the subclades whose haplotype even superficially resembles mine.

It's a thin reed, but better than nothing.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on July 26, 2012, 09:53:20 PM
I noticed some at least superficial similarities between my haplotype and that of Mulholland, Ysearch YGJ9A, kit 10900, who is R-Z253. We're a gd of 26 at 67 markers, but he has 390=23 and 385=11-11, like me. There are plenty of significant differences, of course, but I don't usually find anyone in any of the subclades whose haplotype even superficially resembles mine.

It's a thin reed, but better than nothing.

Hmmm . . .

A cursory inspection of the R-Z253 (xL226) category seems to reveal that the 11-11 RecLoH at 385 is somewhat more common than in other groups. I didn't make a count, but it does seem noticeable that there are a few more 385=11-11 guys than is usual.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mark Jost on July 27, 2012, 12:01:49 AM
I ran your variety with and without Kit 10900 to see if it would help your analysis.

f59080   Stevens
f208061   Stephens
yVT2R6   Beddoes
f88034   Stevens
f212967   Stevens
f163684   Webb
f57563   Cooper
f109000   Mulholland
fN40760   Stevens
f124786   Stevens
f102653   French
f191492   Stevens

Gen111T mod to 37 markers of 1123-16's With Kit 10900
YrsPerGen*   Count   Coalescence Age   Generations   StdDev   YBP   + - YBP   Founder's Age   Generations   StdDev   YBP   + - YBP   Max
30   N=12   1123-16  GA coal=   40.6   22.5   1,217.9   676.3   GA=   44.9   23.7   1,345.7   710.9   2,056.5
YrsPerGen*   Count   Coalescence Age   Generations   StdDev   YBP   + - YBP   Founder's Age   Generations   StdDev   YBP   + - YBP   Max
30   N=2647   L21GB coal=   109.1   36.9   3,272.1   1,108.5   GB=   116.1   38.1   3,482.5   1,143.6   4,626.1
      Diff =   68.5      2,054.2      Diff =   71.2      2,136.8      
26/37Markers                                    
   TRUE   TMRCA Founder   Generations   StdDev   YBP   + - YBP        Coalescence Age = Variance of Whole Population (n)               
30      GAB=   135.4   8.2   4,062.1   246.8        Founder's Age = Variance from Modal               


Without 10900

YrsPerGen*   Count   Coalescence Age   Generations   StdDev   YBP   + - YBP   Founder's Age   Generations   StdDev   YBP   + - YBP   Max
30   N=11   1123-16  GA coal=   14.3   13.4   428.3   401.0   GA=   15.9   14.1   477.9   423.7   901.6
YrsPerGen*   Count   Coalescence Age   Generations   StdDev   YBP   + - YBP   Founder's Age   Generations   StdDev   YBP   + - YBP   Max
30   N=2647   L21GB coal=   109.1   36.9   3,272.1   1,108.5   GB=   116.1   38.1   3,482.5   1,143.6   4,626.1
      Diff =   94.8      2,843.8      Diff =   100.2      3,004.5      
26/37Markers                                    
   TRUE   TMRCA Founder   Generations   StdDev   YBP   + - YBP        Coalescence Age = Variance of Whole Population (n)               
30      GAB=   129.1   8.0   3,871.9   241.0        Founder's Age = Variance from Modal               

MJost


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on July 27, 2012, 07:31:42 AM
Thanks, Mark!

I missed French, who is also Z253+. His result gives me added hope for a positive hit at Z253.

We'll see.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mark Jost on July 27, 2012, 07:49:29 AM
Your welcome. Hope it helps. Mulholland is the outlier of the group with the some of the opposite direction of off modal faster STRs and, as you can see the big swing of intraclade founders age with or with out him.

MJost


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on July 27, 2012, 08:12:26 AM
Your welcome. Hope it helps. Mulholland is the outlier of the group with the some of the opposite direction of off modal faster STRs and, as you can see the big swing of intraclade founders age with or with out him.

MJost

Thanks again!

I'm hoping my Z253 result comes back quickly. My DF13 test took about a week or thereabouts from the time it got to the lab, so my hopes are high.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on July 30, 2012, 08:10:06 AM
I am foolishly becoming kind of excited over the possibility of a Z253+ result. It's foolish because I'll probably get just the opposite, and because there doesn't seem to be a lot known about Z253, anyway.

It's not like it will get me right to the village or farm where my immigrant ancestor was born.

Still waiting for whole genome testing (like I'll be able to afford it when it comes!).


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Forsythe on July 30, 2012, 08:57:07 AM
I think at one point you guessed it at possibly around $1000...Any idea when this test may be made available..
I have upgraded to 67 markers, and am DF13+  DF49- with no other options that I know of...


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on July 30, 2012, 09:08:24 AM
I think at one point you guessed it at possibly around $1000...Any idea when this test may be made available..
I have upgraded to 67 markers, and am DF13+  DF49- with no other options that I know of...

I read somewhere it might become available in the next two or three years at $1,000.

I could pay that, but I'm not sure the wife would let me live long enough to see the results.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Warrior1 on August 03, 2012, 08:55:58 PM
It's good to see your interest in hoping for a Z253+ result and just as you said, you'll find it won't really answer much and it will be on to further snp testing. I'm currently awaiting the results of what is left under Z253, already being L226- and L894-. The Casey predictor pretty much had negative predicted and that really leaves DF73, which I wouldn't hold my breath on...Then I've got these wacky YCA II a/b markers of 22/23....anyone have any thoughts on this combo?? It's not very common that is for sure.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on August 03, 2012, 09:49:22 PM
It's good to see your interest in hoping for a Z253+ result and just as you said, you'll find it won't really answer much and it will be on to further snp testing. I'm currently awaiting the results of what is left under Z253, already being L226- and L894-. The Casey predictor pretty much had negative predicted and that really leaves DF73, which I wouldn't hold my breath on...Then I've got these wacky YCA II a/b markers of 22/23....anyone have any thoughts on this combo?? It's not very common that is for sure.

Thanks. I was hoping for a fast result, too, but it hasn't come in yet. It's only been a couple of weeks, but it was faster than that for DF13, so I was hoping for a repeat performance.

Still waiting.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Warrior1 on August 03, 2012, 10:15:20 PM
I hear you, SNP results a month back were coming through in about 1.5 weeks and now I have a L1066 from batch 470 that still hasn't completed. That was batched on 06/27...


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Frances James on August 03, 2012, 11:02:36 PM
IThen I've got these wacky YCA II a/b markers of 22/23....anyone have any thoughts on this combo?? It's not very common that is for sure.

I have a few men in a project with YCA II a/b =22/23  and 390 =21.
There are a few other surnames with this combo.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Warrior1 on August 04, 2012, 11:44:30 AM
IThen I've got these wacky YCA II a/b markers of 22/23....anyone have any thoughts on this combo?? It's not very common that is for sure.

I have a few men in a project with YCA II a/b =22/23  and 390 =21.
There are a few other surnames with this combo.


Greetings:

Thank you for your reply. May I ask which project you are referring to? I have seen a small number of 22/23's but only as a fractional minority among hundreds or thousands of other L21's having the typical 19/23 combo..

Thanks.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Frances James on August 04, 2012, 09:58:23 PM
Warrior

There are a few Whalens, also Fitpatricks, Daltons, Brennans with YCAII a/b = 22/23,
 They all have 390 = 21 aswell,  which you dont appear to have.
I havnt tested whalen for Z253 yet, that might be the next move.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Warrior1 on August 04, 2012, 10:54:44 PM
I'm requesting from FTDNA the YCAII a/b be reviewed as I'm not confidient they are accurate however it is a bit comforting to know there are others having these markers. I have to know for certain though since my most distant relations is only speculative, being from Scotland in the mid 1600's and can't afford the inconvenience of inaccurate markers in trying to confirm the lineage.

Feel free to refer to me as Bill as well.

Cheers,

Bill


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Warrior1 on August 04, 2012, 11:08:30 PM
Warrior

There are a few Whalens, also Fitpatricks, Daltons, Brennans with YCAII a/b = 22/23,
 They all have 390 = 21 aswell,  which you dont appear to have.
I havnt tested whalen for Z253 yet, that might be the next move.


I wanted to add, even among the Z253+ group thus far, the 22/23 str combo is about non-existent. This combo must be more recent, or several of us have an error in our resluts. My guess is there is some type of minority group within the British Isles, perhaps Pictish (I don't believe for one minute the Scot's modal is Pictish). Time will tell.

Bill


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on August 05, 2012, 08:00:27 AM
I'm guessing 23-23 at YCAII is a RecLoH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RecLOH), and 22-23 just represents a one-step move down on one of those values that make up that duplicate marker.

SMGF's entry for YCAII (http://www.smgf.org/ychromosome/marker_details.jspx?marker=YCAII#duplicated) indicates that 22-23 occurs 1.67% of the time in its database or in 608 of its samples. That actually makes it one of the more frequent values at that marker. That's not the same as saying it occurs commonly; it doesn't. It only occurs 1.67% of the time over the whole SMGF database.

Of course, that is the total for all of SMGF's database, and not just for L21 or for Z253.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Warrior1 on August 05, 2012, 08:34:03 AM
I'm guessing 23-23 at YCAII is a RecLoH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RecLOH), and 22-23 just represents a one-step move down on one of those values that make up that duplicate marker.

SMGF's entry for YCAII (http://www.smgf.org/ychromosome/marker_details.jspx?marker=YCAII#duplicated) indicates that 22-23 occurs 1.67% of the time in its database or in 608 of its samples. That actually makes it one of the more frequent values at that marker.

Of course, that is the total for all of SMGF's database, and not just for L21 or for Z253.

Thank you, yes, I do see this: 22-23   608   . It's good to know, other than the mutant piece. I guess we are all mutants to a certain degree.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on August 05, 2012, 08:36:17 AM
I'm guessing 23-23 at YCAII is a RecLoH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RecLOH), and 22-23 just represents a one-step move down on one of those values that make up that duplicate marker.

SMGF's entry for YCAII (http://www.smgf.org/ychromosome/marker_details.jspx?marker=YCAII#duplicated) indicates that 22-23 occurs 1.67% of the time in its database or in 608 of its samples. That actually makes it one of the more frequent values at that marker.

Of course, that is the total for all of SMGF's database, and not just for L21 or for Z253.

Thank you, yes, I do see this: 22-23   608   . It's good to know, other than the mutant piece. I guess we are all mutants to a certain degree.

It's still not exactly a common value (I amended my original post above to indicate that). It only occurs 1.67% of the time throughout SMGF's entire database. That's not a lot really.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Warrior1 on August 05, 2012, 02:40:08 PM
One other question though, don't want to hi-jack the thread, but wouldn't a recLOH event have affected other twin allele markers and not just YCAII? For instance 385, 464, cdy, etc. I'm not seeing anything that would indicate they had an event. I could be wrong but when I researched a little it seems like more than one set of markers would be affected by the event at the same time.

Cheers.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on August 05, 2012, 05:06:43 PM
One other question though, don't want to hi-jack the thread, but wouldn't a recLOH event have affected other twin allele markers and not just YCAII? For instance 385, 464, cdy, etc. I'm not seeing anything that would indicate they had an event. I could be wrong but when I researched a little it seems like more than one set of markers would be affected by the event at the same time.

Cheers.

One RecLoH doesn't necessarily mean you'll have others.

A RecLoH to 23-23 from 19-23 at YCAII is a one-step mutation. Down to 22-23 makes that just two steps. It seems more likely than three steps up from 19-23.



Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on August 05, 2012, 05:37:41 PM
Man, I wish these test results came in faster!

That is one huge negative about this hobby: the waiting.

Guess, I should just forget about it for now. It'll come when it comes.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Warrior1 on August 05, 2012, 05:44:35 PM
Man, I wish these test results came in faster!

That is one huge negative about this hobby: the waiting.

Guess, I should just forget about it for now. It'll come when it comes.

Me too, I check dozens of times a day because I never get the email notifications, for other than large tests like the mtDNA but for snps an as the STRs finish I don't get any emails about it....I've been waiting for L1066 since June 27th..Come on guys, get to work...please??


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on August 05, 2012, 06:23:27 PM
Man, I wish these test results came in faster!

That is one huge negative about this hobby: the waiting.

Guess, I should just forget about it for now. It'll come when it comes.

Me too, I check dozens of times a day because I never get the email notifications, for other than large tests like the mtDNA but for snps an as the STRs finish I don't get any emails about it....I've been waiting for L1066 since June 27th..Come on guys, get to work...please??


FTDNA doesn't generally send emails for individual SNP test results. All you can do is keep checking the top of your Haplotree page.



Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2012, 12:19:24 AM
Well, woe is me, I am Z253-.

Sigh . . .

Guess I'll be spending some more money soon chasing down another downstream SNP.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Warrior1 on August 10, 2012, 12:51:39 AM
Well, woe is me, I am Z253-.

Sigh . . .

Guess I'll be spending some more money soon chasing down another downstream SNP.
Well, I'm glad you got your results. I just received mine as well, L1066+. Now I'm stuck at another wall but with only a handful of other gentlemen, all of the Irish persuasion thus far. I shouldn't be though, I believe I trace back to Scotland so we'll see what the next SNP is that comes along...

Cheers.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2012, 01:05:42 AM
Well, woe is me, I am Z253-.

Sigh . . .

Guess I'll be spending some more money soon chasing down another downstream SNP.
Well, I'm glad you got your results. I just received mine as well, L1066+. Now I'm stuck at another wall but with only a handful of other gentlemen, all of the Irish persuasion thus far. I shouldn't be though, I believe I trace back to Scotland so we'll see what the next SNP is that comes along...

Cheers.

There's an L1066+ category at the R-L21 Plus Project now. You're probably in it.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Warrior1 on August 10, 2012, 01:09:29 AM
 Yes sir, I am there now and I would imagine the Z253 project will update soon as well.

I wish you well in your journey.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: NealtheRed on August 23, 2012, 08:13:30 AM
Z253 just picked up another Norwegian this morning: Meringdal, MDKA from Oppland, Norway.

He has a close match with another man of Norwegian ancestry (Skeie, Hordaland) that will also most likely test Z253+.

It's strange how I recruited Meringdal for testing because his close match (Skeie) is a 67 marker match with a Z255+ Beattie in the Z255 Project. I initially thought Meringdal might be Z255+, but he tested negative for it.

I checked out the Z253 Project and noticed that many guys share some modal values common in Z255 - DYS442 = 11, DYS557 = 17, etc. Any thoughts on this?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 23, 2012, 08:24:02 PM
Z253 just picked up another Norwegian this morning: Meringdal, MDKA from Oppland, Norway.

He has a close match with another man of Norwegian ancestry (Skeie, Hordaland) that will also most likely test Z253+.

It's strange how I recruited Meringdal for testing because his close match (Skeie) is a 67 marker match with a Z255+ Beattie in the Z255 Project. I initially thought Meringdal might be Z255+, but he tested negative for it.

I checked out the Z253 Project and noticed that many guys share some modal values common in Z255 - DYS442 = 11, DYS557 = 17, etc. Any thoughts on this?

This is just more evidence that Z253 is quite old. We can't come up with an STR pattern or set of patterns that has encompassed it yet.  It also stretches from Iberia to Scandinavia.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: hoxgi on August 24, 2012, 01:59:46 AM
Re Z253 and Z255 - I recall that Mike's interclade calculations indicated that these two SNPs had a common ancestor more recently than any of the other L21 subclades. Perhaps a few of the off-modal STrs common to these two SNPs pre-date the SNPs themselves.
Re Meringdal - his STR pattern is very different from the other Z253+ person in the Z253 Project from Norway (Falch).  I think that Meringdal should test for L1066 on the basis of his STR results.
Re L1066 - we have just had an L1066+ result in Goff B2394, who is a member of the Irish Type IV group.  So it looks like L1066 just became much larger. Goff has the closest GD and greatest number of common off-modal STRs of any Irish Type IV person to the L1066 Brady/Burns variety, so I think I'll ask another Irish Type IV person to test for L1066 as well, just to be sure.
Greg


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 24, 2012, 12:50:19 PM
... Re L1066 - we have just had an L1066+ result in Goff B2394, who is a member of the Irish Type IV group.  So it looks like L1066 just became much larger. Goff has the closest GD and greatest number of common off-modal STRs of any Irish Type IV person to the L1066 Brady/Burns variety, so I think I'll ask another Irish Type IV person to test for L1066 as well, just to be sure.

This is pretty cool that the 1310-T4 (Irish IV/Cont) guys now have an SNP than their own, and I like the fact that it is a little broader that the STR pattern. This might help us understand the subclade's origin and migration.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: hoxgi on August 24, 2012, 07:26:53 PM
Yes, it's good news for Irish Type IV. Another two of them have just ordered L1066 tests, which should confirm Goff's results.
So we now have eight L1066+ persons in the Z253 Project (and another eleven L1066 tests ordered), plus the original two L1066+ results in the 1000 Genomes Project, one of whom has Iberian ancestry.
There are two Z253+ persons of French or Scandinavian ancestry who look promising candidates for L1066: Le Bras N56523 and Olsen 21595. They both have 385b=15 and 449=29. I'll see if would be willing to test. It would be interesting if L1066 has a presence right along the European coast as well.
Greg


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 07, 2012, 11:56:08 AM
Yes, it's good news for Irish Type IV. Another two of them have just ordered L1066 tests, which should confirm Goff's results.
So we now have eight L1066+ persons in the Z253 Project (and another eleven L1066 tests ordered), plus the original two L1066+ results in the 1000 Genomes Project, one of whom has Iberian ancestry.
There are two Z253+ persons of French or Scandinavian ancestry who look promising candidates for L1066: Le Bras N56523 and Olsen 21595. They both have 385b=15 and 449=29. I'll see if would be willing to test. It would be interesting if L1066 has a presence right along the European coast as well.

What do you think of Shields?  We have some evidence that the mutation 426=13 occurred relatively recently for Irish IV people.

We have this fellow who is L1066+
f87470   Shields   R-L21/DF13/Z253/L1066 426=12 and not quite Irish IV

One of his two closest GD's in the L21 file is this person who is a clear Irish IV person
fN21843   Kennedy   R-L21  426=13 and Irish IV

Their GD is 10 at 67.

What does this mean?  I don't know, but one speculation could be that L1066+ 426=13 people expanded relatively recently, like 1500 years ago.  Since they are widely scattered across the Isles and the Continent you can start trying to align with historical movements.

On the other hand, even though it is very slow, maybe the Shields lineage had a back mutation to 426=12.  L1066 testing and 111 testing of Irish IV and almost Irish IV people could be very helpful.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 13, 2012, 03:52:10 PM
Z253 has just expanded. An L643 person was found to be Z253+. Thank you, exploratory testers.

This is the STR signature that seems to fit L643.
253-643: 572<=10 389ii-i=17 442<=11 {L643}

I can't say they are all L643 and more testing needs to occur:
f40717   MacKenzie   R1b-L21>DF13>Z253   253-643   Z253+ L643+ L226-
f57521   Matheson    R1b-L21>DF13   253-643   DF13+ L643+
fN1851   Orem   R1b-L21>DF13   253-643   DF13+ L643+ L513- DF21- L144- L371- L555- L96- L130- L195- L319.1- L526- L557- L580- L583- L679-

See how MacKenzie and Orem are both L643+ and MacKenzie is Z253+ and he is L226-.

Has an L643 person tested for L1066?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 13, 2012, 05:24:34 PM
Z253 has just expanded. An L643 person was found to be Z253+. Thank you, exploratory testers.

This is the STR signature that seems to fit L643.
253-643: 572<=10 389ii-i=17 442<=11 {L643}

I can't say they are all L643 and more testing needs to occur:
f40717   MacKenzie   R1b-L21>DF13>Z253   253-643   Z253+ L643+ L226-
f57521   Matheson    R1b-L21>DF13   253-643   DF13+ L643+
fN1851   Orem   R1b-L21>DF13   253-643   DF13+ L643+ L513- DF21- L144- L371- L555- L96- L130- L195- L319.1- L526- L557- L580- L583- L679-

See how MacKenzie and Orem are both L643+ and MacKenzie is Z253+ and he is L226-.

Has an L643 person tested for L1066?

It looks like Z2185 is about ready to insert itself on the Z253 tree.
Quote from: David Reynolds
Once the Z2185 result for Robert Brooks Casey (L226+) is back, assuming it is
Z2185-, we will be able to add Z2185 at at peer level to L554 and L226, with
L1066 moving under Z2185.

After that, the expectation is to add L643 at a peer level to L554, L226, and
Z2185. For that, we are waiting on the Matheson & Hockings tests that Connie
mentioned below.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/message/12052


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on October 13, 2012, 05:30:47 PM
Is L643 between DF13 and Z253 or downstream of Z253?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on October 13, 2012, 05:52:11 PM
Is L643 between DF13 and Z253 or downstream of Z253?

Never mind. I see there is a Z253+ guy who is L643-, so L643 must be downstream of Z253.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mark Jost on October 16, 2012, 11:07:02 AM
Interesting England majority results of:

R1b-L21>DF13>Z253**

f162176   Falch(Ølfernes) Norway
fN85107   Hockings England
f63623   Dredge England
f212724   Yorke   Ireland  IS Ire Ulster

111(94) Markers   Sheet  Mutation Rate: 0.22894
STRs not used: 385,389i,459,464,CDY,YCAII,395S1 & 413

L21 ALL (111Markers)  
YrsPerGen*  Count
30   N=1048

Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  Max  VAR  

SD
114.6   32.1  3,438.8  963.5  4,402.3  12.738  3.569


R1b-L21>DF13>Z253**  
YrsPerGen*  Count
30   N=4

Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  Max  VAR  

SD

98.3  20.7  2,948.4  621.6  3,570.0  22.500  4.743

            

TRUE MRCA  InterClade AB Founder      
Pooled SD Clades  A & B  Interclade

YrsPerGen*
30

Interclade GAB: L21* for L21 ALL (111Markers) & R1b-

L21>DF13>Z253**



Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  PooledVar   

PooledSD
   
113.3  22.2  3,398.6  667.4  25.936  5.093


MJost


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: hoxgi on October 17, 2012, 10:10:57 PM
Mark, these are very interesting calculations. Have you by any chance used the same approach on the major Z253 subclades - L226 and L1066? I think there are over a hundred L226+ people in the L226 Project. We have twenty-three L1066+ results in the Z253 Project, with a few more expected in the next week or two. On the basis of current results, I think you could assume the Irish Type IV group to all be L1066+ as well.
We also know that L1066 is downstream from Z2184 and Z2185. The following Z253+ people are confirmed Z2184- and Z2185-:
Pike 23996 (L554+)
Clark N1931
Whitehead 81795
Strahan 146819
My own kit (Hockings N85107) is Z253+ Z2184+ Z2185+ L1066-.
I don't seem to have any similarities in my STR off-modals to the L1066+ group and have a fairly high GD to some of them. So Z2184 and/or Z2185 will presumably define a larger subclade within Z253, which includes L1066.
Greg


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mark Jost on October 18, 2012, 01:05:15 AM
Greg,

I ran the 67 marker haplotypes and posted it in the file section of R-L21 Files section

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/

Called:

Z253&SubcladesTMRCA-Gen111T_Estimator_ModMJost

It has the Interclades for the three subclades of Z253: L1066, L226 and L554 in the order of age.... interesting.

MJost


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: hoxgi on October 18, 2012, 01:22:31 AM
Thanks very much Mark. These calculations are certainly worth some thought.
The relatively young age of L554 is consistent with the small number of L554+ people so far identified. 
However, I wasn't expecting L1066 to be around 800 years older than L226. Given that we already have two other SNPs (Z2184 and Z2185) between Z253 and L1066, I would think that there should also be other, as yet unidentifed, SNPs upstream of L226. I don't yet know if Geno 2 will help clarify this.
We'll continue to encourage testing for these SNPs in selected Z253+ persons.
Greg


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: amorgan on December 24, 2012, 08:52:37 PM
I was recently confirmed as R-Z253 by Geno 2.0. I am kit fN85391. Surname Morgan, assumed to be Welsh, but uncertain.  Also, my DYS 19=10, which seems to be very rare.

Most of this thread is over my head, but I am hoping people are still reading this thread and may be able to provide some advice on where to look next.  Since some of you seem to be adept at interpreting STR values given SNP results, I hoping someone will be willing to go out on a limb and provide some theories. 

It seems like the general theory is that Z253 originated in France or northern Spain, then spread to Ireland, Scotland, etc. Given my haplotype, and in particular the DYS 19 of 10, does anyone have any predictions about where my European ancestor came from?  Does DYS19=10 indicate a very old branch of Z253?  A few months ago I tried doing searches for people with this value using tools like usystrdatabase.org, and the only people I've found that were even close were of Iberian origin.  However, since I have seen one person from Como Italy, but he doesn't match well on other STRs. 

To add a little genealogical detail, there are several competing theories on where our first Morgan ancestor in the colonies (PA, VA, or MD) came from.  The two most likely are a) Edward Morgan of Bala, Wales, and b) Edward Morgan, son of Sir James Morgan of Llantarnum Abbey, Monmouthshire, Wales. The former is in northern Wales, someone of likely limited financial resources, and older Welsh descent or perhaps some ties to the Irish types that have been talked about so much on this thread.  The latter (b) was the son of a wealthy Catholic family in southern Wales.  This family fought in the 100 years war in Normandy.  Other theories include Caribbean immigration and then adopting the name Morgan at some point in the 1600s.

I might even be willing to pay someone for some consulting to look at our data and provide some insights.  Or I could chip in to support whatever project you might need funds for.  I have data from Geno 2.0, FTDNA (waiting on deep clade results), 23andme, and Ancestry DNA Family Finder.

I know most of you are more interested in the early history and scientific discovery aspects of this rather than helping some newbie joker figure out his genealogy, but if anyone has any clues it would be a great Christmas present.

BTW, merry Christmas!


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Autochthon on December 27, 2012, 12:08:17 PM
I was recently confirmed as R-Z253 by Geno 2.0. I am kit fN85391. Surname Morgan, assumed to be Welsh, but uncertain.  Also, my DYS 19=10, which seems to be very rare.

Most of this thread is over my head, but I am hoping people are still reading this thread and may be able to provide some advice on where to look next.  Since some of you seem to be adept at interpreting STR values given SNP results, I hoping someone will be willing to go out on a limb and provide some theories. 

It seems like the general theory is that Z253 originated in France or northern Spain, then spread to Ireland, Scotland, etc. Given my haplotype, and in particular the DYS 19 of 10, does anyone have any predictions about where my European ancestor came from?  Does DYS19=10 indicate a very old branch of Z253?  A few months ago I tried doing searches for people with this value using tools like usystrdatabase.org, and the only people I've found that were even close were of Iberian origin.  However, since I have seen one person from Como Italy, but he doesn't match well on other STRs. 

To add a little genealogical detail, there are several competing theories on where our first Morgan ancestor in the colonies (PA, VA, or MD) came from.  The two most likely are a) Edward Morgan of Bala, Wales, and b) Edward Morgan, son of Sir James Morgan of Llantarnum Abbey, Monmouthshire, Wales. The former is in northern Wales, someone of likely limited financial resources, and older Welsh descent or perhaps some ties to the Irish types that have been talked about so much on this thread.  The latter (b) was the son of a wealthy Catholic family in southern Wales.  This family fought in the 100 years war in Normandy.  Other theories include Caribbean immigration and then adopting the name Morgan at some point in the 1600s.

I might even be willing to pay someone for some consulting to look at our data and provide some insights.  Or I could chip in to support whatever project you might need funds for.  I have data from Geno 2.0, FTDNA (waiting on deep clade results), 23andme, and Ancestry DNA Family Finder.

I know most of you are more interested in the early history and scientific discovery aspects of this rather than helping some newbie joker figure out his genealogy, but if anyone has any clues it would be a great Christmas present.

BTW, merry Christmas!

You are in the cluster 253-1716-11 in Mike Walsh's Yahoo R-L21 Project data spreadsheet. If you haven't already joined the project I suggest you do so, where you will find your closest STR matches and people who share your aims. The cluster comprizes more than 150 members with similar profiles to your own, predominantly of Bitish Isles origin, with a majority from the central counties of Ireland. There are currently no SNPs discovered downstream of Z253 that define the cluster 253-1716-11, but the search is on.

Your value of DYS19 = 10 is a long way from the modal value and is likely to be a single event mutatation. I would therefore suggest you don't put too great an emphasis on that value when comparing your profile with others.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: embPA on December 27, 2012, 03:25:26 PM
The DYS19 of 10 instead of 14 is treated as a GD of one on the Semargl site, at least in this instance:
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/nearest-neighbors/49919/

Z253 does seem to have a high presence in the central counties of Ireland.  That may be connected to the two major rivers, the River Shannon and the River Erne, both flow into the Atlantic. Headwaters of both are in what is now Co. Cavan.  So, while Cavan appears to be landlocked, it was not.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: amorgan on December 29, 2012, 04:01:39 PM
@autochthon and @embPA: Thanks, this is very interesting and useful info.  I have now joined the Yahoo group and am trying to catch up.

Based on your observations about the central counties of Ireland where my haplotype seems to be common, I guess the implication is this:
Someone in Spain or the coast of France was born with the Z253 mutation about 3000 or so years ago.  One of his descendents a thousand or more years later sailed to Ireland, working his way up one of the rivers mentioned, settling in central Ireland.  Later some of his descendents started migrating to other parts of the British Isles.

Am I on the right track? Where does Wales come in? I don't see many Welsh names under Z253. I read that there was some Irish settlement in Wales in the fourth and fifth century.  Is that in the right time frame?  Any other ideas?   


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Autochthon on December 30, 2012, 05:04:55 PM
@autochthon and @embPA: Thanks, this is very interesting and useful info.  I have now joined the Yahoo group and am trying to catch up.

Based on your observations about the central counties of Ireland where my haplotype seems to be common, I guess the implication is this:
Someone in Spain or the coast of France was born with the Z253 mutation about 3000 or so years ago.  One of his descendents a thousand or more years later sailed to Ireland, working his way up one of the rivers mentioned, settling in central Ireland.  Later some of his descendents started migrating to other parts of the British Isles.

Am I on the right track? Where does Wales come in? I don't see many Welsh names under Z253. I read that there was some Irish settlement in Wales in the fourth and fifth century.  Is that in the right time frame?  Any other ideas?   


Your assumption is a possibility, but the origin of Z253 has not been established with any confidence. You can see from Mike's spreadsheet that there are a number of clusters under Z253 with considerably different profiles with high Irish origin, from several distinct areas of Ireland. If Z253 originated on the continent either there were several migrations to Ireland that resulted in the different clusters, or there was a single migration shortly after the Z253 origin and the different clusters developed within Ireland. The 253-1716-11 cluster to which you belong is probably around 1500 years old, and there was probably mobility between Ireland and Wales during that period. There are several members with Welsh origin names in your cluster but none of them apear to be very close to you. Nevertheless it is within that cluster that your closest matches will be found.

Quite a number within the cluster have upgraded to 111 markers so that is something you might consider. There is a sale on at the moment but it ends tomorrow.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 31, 2012, 01:44:21 PM
j... Am I on the right track? Where does Wales come in? I don't see many Welsh names under Z253. I read that there was some Irish settlement in Wales in the fourth and fifth century.  Is that in the right time frame?  Any other ideas?   

There is a Wales DNA project at FTDNA too. You might consider joining it to see if you fit in any of their groups, or vice versa.

There were many migrations between Ireland and Wales, both directions. My own theory is that many of the Irish are not old, old pre-Roman Irish but were Brythonic speaking (or English) people that converted to Q-Celtic as they immigrated to Ireland.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Autochthon on January 01, 2013, 12:31:49 PM
or the coast of France was born with the Z253 mutation about 3000 or so years ago.  One of his descendents a thousand or more years later sailed to Ireland, working his way
@autochthon and @embPA: Thanks, this is very interesting and useful info.  I have now joined the Yahoo group and am trying to catch up.

Based on your observations about the central counties of Ireland where my haplotype seems to be common, I guess the implication is this:
Someone in Spain  up one of the rivers mentioned, settling in central Ireland.  Later some of his descendents started migrating to other parts of the British Isles.

Am I on the right track? Where does Wales come in? I don't see many Welsh names under Z253. I read that there was some Irish settlement in Wales in the fourth and fifth century.  Is that in the right time frame?  Any other ideas?   


 shortly after the Z253 origin and the different clusters developed within IrelandYour assumption is a possibility, but the origin of Z253 has not been established with any confidence. You can see from Mike's spreadsheet that there are a number of clusters under Z253 with considerably different profiles with high Irish origin, from several distinct areas of Ireland. If Z253 originated on the continent either there were several migrations to Ireland that resulted in the different clusters, or there was a single migration. The 253-1716-11 cluster to which you belong is probably around 1500 years old, and there was probably mobility between Ireland and Wales during that period. There are several members with Welsh origin names in your cluster but none of them apear to be very close to you. Nevertheless it is within that cluster that your closest matches will be found.

Quite a number within the cluster have upgraded to 111 markers so that is something you might consider. There is a sale on at the moment but it ends tomorrow.

Assuming that your DYS 19 = 10 is a single event mutation, looking at your closest matches you have several with relatively small genetic distance, suggesting that you probably share common ancestors with them in the past 1000 years, i.e. after the introduction of surnames. Your closest matches are of Irish origin rather than Welsh. Have you considered the possibility that your Morgan surname may be the Irish version, derived from the Gaelic O'Muireagain?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: amorgan on January 01, 2013, 03:08:33 PM
Your closest matches are of Irish origin rather than Welsh. Have you considered the possibility that your Morgan surname may be the Irish version, derived from the Gaelic O'Muireagain?

That is a possibility I've been considering, but it doesn't line up very well with the other things I know to date.  Most things seem to point to ancestors in PA and VA who considered themselves of Welsh background. This week I will try to do GD comparisons with people from Welsh projects to see if there are any as close as the closest in the 253-1716 group.  I'm also looking at possible Caribbean route.  There were certainly many Irish who went to the Caribbean during the Cromwell period.     


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: inver2b1 on January 01, 2013, 08:13:39 PM
j... Am I on the right track? Where does Wales come in? I don't see many Welsh names under Z253. I read that there was some Irish settlement in Wales in the fourth and fifth century.  Is that in the right time frame?  Any other ideas?   

There is a Wales DNA project at FTDNA too. You might consider joining it to see if you fit in any of their groups, or vice versa.

There were many migrations between Ireland and Wales, both directions. My own theory is that many of the Irish are not old, old pre-Roman Irish but were Brythonic speaking (or English) people that converted to Q-Celtic as they immigrated to Ireland.

What period do you think migrations from Wales were in?
If Welsh were forced to Northern France by Irish raiders I find it unusual they would at some stage migrate to a place where their persecutors came from.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 02, 2013, 12:11:00 AM
j... Am I on the right track? Where does Wales come in? I don't see many Welsh names under Z253. I read that there was some Irish settlement in Wales in the fourth and fifth century.  Is that in the right time frame?  Any other ideas?   

There is a Wales DNA project at FTDNA too. You might consider joining it to see if you fit in any of their groups, or vice versa.

There were many migrations between Ireland and Wales, both directions. My own theory is that many of the Irish are not old, old pre-Roman Irish but were Brythonic speaking (or English) people that converted to Q-Celtic as they immigrated to Ireland.

What period do you think migrations from Wales were in?
If Welsh were forced to Northern France by Irish raiders I find it unusual they would at some stage migrate to a place where their persecutors came from.

I never said the Welsh were forced to Northern France by Irish raiders.

I didn't say this either, but there are many historians that think that Britons from Great Britain (including Wales) left for Bretagne (Brittany), France during the Anglo-Saxon Invasion Era.

For sure, we know that the Cambro-Norman Invasion of Ireland, circa 1169 AD, brought many Welsh/Norman families to Ireland. Some of these lineages came to England, circa 1066 AD, as Anglo-Normans and possibly really as old Bretons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ireland_%281169%E2%80%931536%29

I think this is just the tip of the iceberg and that people have migrated from Britain and Bretagne to Ireland many, many times. ...  and some have circled back again to Britain, anyway, and to the continent at least a little.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: inver2b1 on January 02, 2013, 08:22:22 AM
I thought the migrations to Brittany from Wales preceeded the Saxons and may have started after raids from Ireland (I think I read that on DNA forums).
Actually now thinking about it I recall a thread there where someone claimed a link between Wales and groups on the West of Ireland.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: rms2 on January 02, 2013, 08:10:45 PM
I thought the migrations to Brittany from Wales preceeded the Saxons and may have started after raids from Ireland (I think I read that on DNA forums).
Actually now thinking about it I recall a thread there where someone claimed a link between Wales and groups on the West of Ireland.

That is what Nora Chadwick said in her book, Celtic Britain, I believe. It was either there or in the book she wrote with Myles Dillon, Celtic Realms. The Britons started going to Armorica (Bretagne) too early and from too far west to have been driven there by the Anglo-Saxons, plus there were Saxons living near the Loire in France. Chadwick believed the Britons were fleeing the Irish.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 02, 2013, 10:19:14 PM
I thought the migrations to Brittany from Wales preceeded the Saxons and may have started after raids from Ireland (I think I read that on DNA forums).
Actually now thinking about it I recall a thread there where someone claimed a link between Wales and groups on the West of Ireland.

Ancient historians were not necessarily reliable, but regardless, I doubt if we should look at migrations from Britain to Ireland or Ireland to Britain or either to and from the Amorican Peninsula (where Bretagne is) as single events or even as a single phase.

Undoubtedly, the expansion of the Roman Empire and the Gallic Wars pushed Celts from France into Britain and across into Ireland as well as towards the fringes of the continent, such as the Armorican Peninsula of France. Some this may have resulted in a a domino effect pushing people from Britain into Ireland.

Also, the following expansion of the Roman Empire into Britain and wars against various Celtic tribes there also pushed people around. Old Brits on the wrong side of the war reportedly headed "for the hills". Essentially the rougher lands in what is now Wales and Scotland. Some folks probably were pushed or fled into Ireland and it makes sense that some would flee to the Armorican Peninsula, as some have reported. There may have already been relatives there to greet them. There may have been Britons fleeing some earlier Irish raids or maybe it was really just home.

Of course, later, the Anglo-Saxons came in and inflicted a lot of change on large parts of Britain. There were probably Britons fleeing in all directions, including Armorica. We also know of the ironic situation where Bretons from Armorica joined with or integraged with Normans and came back into England and then Wales and Scotland and finally all the way to Ireland. By the time the Normans reached Ireland, they were integrated with Welsh.

By the time of the English colonizations and Cromwell's work in Ireland, we probably have Old Britons that had been Anglicized and were Englishman that came with and followed Cromwell's path. Of course the Ulster Scots are from Northern Britain, Scotland.

All of this makes sense. What were the proportions of inhabitants that got where by what method, we'll probably never know, but I would think any significant cultural stress would  have caused movement over the ages.

We don't have the historical record in prehistoric times, but we don't really have reason to think stability was all that high prior to the Romans so movements between Britain, Ireland, Amorica and vice versa could well have been common for thousand or two years.

One example is the La Tene Celt influence which is thought to have entered Ireland through Northern Britain. That is just one example, though. I'm not sure how the Bell Beaker cultures unfolded, but surely there was exchange of people across the Irish Sea and down to Armorica during this time period.

As far gene diversity goes, L21 appears older in England than in Ireland. I think it got there first. I just don't see how all of the L21 in Ireland would have come directly from the continent. Some must have come via Britain.

Of course there are links down to SW France and to Galician Spain as well.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Alpine on January 02, 2013, 10:53:26 PM
I thought the migrations to Brittany from Wales preceeded the Saxons and may have started after raids from Ireland (I think I read that on DNA forums).
Actually now thinking about it I recall a thread there where someone claimed a link between Wales and groups on the West of Ireland.

That is what Nora Chadwick said in her book, Celtic Britain, I believe. It was either there or in the book she wrote with Myles Dillon, Celtic Realms. The Britons started going to Armorica (Bretagne) too early and from too far west to have been driven there by the Anglo-Saxons, plus there were Saxons living near the Loire in France. Chadwick believed the Britons were fleeing the Irish.

I recall the cornish britons fleeing to Brittany france in large numbers only during the Prayer book rebellion. A lot where killed by the English at that time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_Book_Rebellion



Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: SEJJ on January 03, 2013, 10:24:12 AM
I thought the migrations to Brittany from Wales preceeded the Saxons and may have started after raids from Ireland (I think I read that on DNA forums).
Actually now thinking about it I recall a thread there where someone claimed a link between Wales and groups on the West of Ireland.

Ancient historians were not necessarily reliable, but regardless, I doubt if we should look at migrations from Britain to Ireland or Ireland to Britain or either to and from the Amorican Peninsula (where Bretagne is) as single events or even as a single phase.

Undoubtedly, the expansion of the Roman Empire and the Gallic Wars pushed Celts from France into Britain and across into Ireland as well as towards the fringes of the continent, such as the Armorican Peninsula of France. Some this may have resulted in a a domino effect pushing people from Britain into Ireland.

Also, the following expansion of the Roman Empire into Britain and wars against various Celtic tribes there also pushed people around. Old Brits on the wrong side of the war reportedly headed "for the hills". Essentially the rougher lands in what is now Wales and Scotland. Some folks probably were pushed or fled into Ireland and it makes sense that some would flee to the Armorican Peninsula, as some have reported. There may have already been relatives there to greet them. There may have been Britons fleeing some earlier Irish raids or maybe it was really just home.

Of course, later, the Anglo-Saxons came in and inflicted a lot of change on large parts of Britain. There were probably Britons fleeing in all directions, including Armorica. We also know of the ironic situation where Bretons from Armorica joined with or integraged with Normans and came back into England and then Wales and Scotland and finally all the way to Ireland. By the time the Normans reached Ireland, they were integrated with Welsh.

By the time of the English colonizations and Cromwell's work in Ireland, we probably have Old Britons that had been Anglicized and were Englishman that came with and followed Cromwell's path. Of course the Ulster Scots are from Northern Britain, Scotland.

All of this makes sense. What were the proportions of inhabitants that got where by what method, we'll probably never know, but I would think any significant cultural stress would  have caused movement over the ages.

We don't have the historical record in prehistoric times, but we don't really have reason to think stability was all that high prior to the Romans so movements between Britain, Ireland, Amorica and vice versa could well have been common for thousand or two years.

One example is the La Tene Celt influence which is thought to have entered Ireland through Northern Britain. That is just one example, though. I'm not sure how the Bell Beaker cultures unfolded, but surely there was exchange of people across the Irish Sea and down to Armorica during this time period.

As far gene diversity goes, L21 appears older in England than in Ireland. I think it got there first. I just don't see how all of the L21 in Ireland would have come directly from the continent. Some must have come via Britain.

Of course there are links down to SW France and to Galician Spain as well.

I think that is a very good summary. Of course what people (not yourself of course) often forget to remember is that for people living in an area with so much coast, the sea was an important highway as well as a lifeline, especially when you have two islands and the continent connected by relatively narrow stretches of water. I would be very surprised if there were not a number of people going between (and staying in)Ireland, Britain and Armorica every single year that they were inhabited, although i definitely agree that any major event that shuffled around tribal boundaries or caused catastrophes would have increased this many fold. There was definitely a great deal of gene-flow between the three areas, looking at all the L21 there.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: inver2b1 on January 03, 2013, 11:36:40 AM
I thought the migrations to Brittany from Wales preceeded the Saxons and may have started after raids from Ireland (I think I read that on DNA forums).
Actually now thinking about it I recall a thread there where someone claimed a link between Wales and groups on the West of Ireland.

Ancient historians were not necessarily reliable, but regardless, I doubt if we should look at migrations from Britain to Ireland or Ireland to Britain or either to and from the Amorican Peninsula (where Bretagne is) as single events or even as a single phase.

Undoubtedly, the expansion of the Roman Empire and the Gallic Wars pushed Celts from France into Britain and across into Ireland as well as towards the fringes of the continent, such as the Armorican Peninsula of France. Some this may have resulted in a a domino effect pushing people from Britain into Ireland.

Also, the following expansion of the Roman Empire into Britain and wars against various Celtic tribes there also pushed people around. Old Brits on the wrong side of the war reportedly headed "for the hills". Essentially the rougher lands in what is now Wales and Scotland. Some folks probably were pushed or fled into Ireland and it makes sense that some would flee to the Armorican Peninsula, as some have reported. There may have already been relatives there to greet them. There may have been Britons fleeing some earlier Irish raids or maybe it was really just home.

Of course, later, the Anglo-Saxons came in and inflicted a lot of change on large parts of Britain. There were probably Britons fleeing in all directions, including Armorica. We also know of the ironic situation where Bretons from Armorica joined with or integraged with Normans and came back into England and then Wales and Scotland and finally all the way to Ireland. By the time the Normans reached Ireland, they were integrated with Welsh.

By the time of the English colonizations and Cromwell's work in Ireland, we probably have Old Britons that had been Anglicized and were Englishman that came with and followed Cromwell's path. Of course the Ulster Scots are from Northern Britain, Scotland.

All of this makes sense. What were the proportions of inhabitants that got where by what method, we'll probably never know, but I would think any significant cultural stress would  have caused movement over the ages.

We don't have the historical record in prehistoric times, but we don't really have reason to think stability was all that high prior to the Romans so movements between Britain, Ireland, Amorica and vice versa could well have been common for thousand or two years.

One example is the La Tene Celt influence which is thought to have entered Ireland through Northern Britain. That is just one example, though. I'm not sure how the Bell Beaker cultures unfolded, but surely there was exchange of people across the Irish Sea and down to Armorica during this time period.

As far gene diversity goes, L21 appears older in England than in Ireland. I think it got there first. I just don't see how all of the L21 in Ireland would have come directly from the continent. Some must have come via Britain.

Of course there are links down to SW France and to Galician Spain as well.

Thanks, is there any genetic evidence of Wales to Ireland migration around the 5th century onwards?
Also with surnames like Walsh and Burke do we see any clusters/patterns that might distinguish between Normans and local populations that adopted the surnames?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Celtarion on January 19, 2013, 04:31:49 PM
I have been confirmed as Z253+ by FTDNA today under kit number 233265. Surname Le Gall (meaning in breton language, the foreigner who does not speak breton).

To give you a short background of my family, for the last 4 centuries (back to 1605), my father, gd father etc.. are all born in Brittany, same town, same place. Confirmed by the genealogical tree that I have built this past year. Till now, I haven't found someone in my breton tree from one of these countries like Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England or Spain. However, 23andme has shown Iberia and British/Irish in my Ancestry Composition but at a very low percentage.

Geno 2.0 may provide additional details in the coming next weeks, still waiting for the results.

Also, my brother's kit is currently under testing, and should show the same results as mine. The very few first results are showing that he is potentially DF13, but I have no doubt that he should be Z253 shortly.

Have a good weekend all!

Joss.


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: hoxgi on January 20, 2013, 08:33:13 AM
Welcome to the Z253 world, Joss.  Your results are interesting in view of your Breton heritage. 

You share five off-modals with Irish Type IV, but do not match on their other eight off-modals. Irish Type IV is Z253+, Z2534+, Z2185+ and L1066+ (in descending order).

You also share four off-modals with a group designated 253-1121, but do not match on their other six off-modals.  This group is thought to be Z2534-, although only one person has tested so far, and if so must also negative for Z2185 and L1066.  It includes persons with ancestry from Norway, Sweden and the Netherlands, as well as the Isles.

So your next step should be to test for Z2534, which I see you have already ordered. Your closest Z253+ matches are in the GD range of 12-15 and include several Irish Type IV and two members of 253-1121.

Greg



Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Celtarion on January 22, 2013, 06:01:41 PM
Hey Greg,

Thanks! There is an other breton guy which his family is from Brittany as well, and in the same area as mine (Finistère) and where he is L1066+ under kit N56523. I may be L1066+ too.

In the case where I'm positive for Z2534, so then I'll go directly to L1066, if I'm negative, well c'est la vie :-)


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: Randy Wilhoit on March 02, 2013, 06:16:06 PM
I could use a little help as I am fairly new to this.  It is my mother that should be Irish Type 3 or SNP L226, as a Maloney from Clare.  I assume I prove this with MTDNA testing ?


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: hoxgi on March 02, 2013, 11:37:50 PM
Hi Randy. L226 is a mutation on the Y-chromosome. You have your father's Y-chromosome and your mother's mitochondrial DNA, so there is no point in your testing unless you think your father may be L226+. Of course your mother does not have a Y-chromosome, so you will need to arrange testing on a male relative of your mother's, such as her brother or father, if you wish to establish the genetics of her paternal line.
Greg


Title: Re: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226
Post by: artmulh on September 13, 2013, 05:21:19 PM
Hi, I am the "Mulholland" 109000 mentioned o the site. Just ran across you site. Please advise how I may help or add to the discussion.