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Title: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on September 20, 2011, 11:19:24 AM
WTY results returned for an L159.2+ project member, and he is confirmed Z255+. This establishes a close, genetic relationship between L144 and L159.2 men, who now appear to belong to the same, ancient lineage.

Interestingly, L144 in Ireland is situated in the Southeast, close to its L159.2 cousins.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on September 20, 2011, 04:13:32 PM
I should probably note that L144+ men are Z255+ as well.

L144 is prominent in Whelan/Phelan men from Waterford and Laois, as well as some Prossers from Wales. It looks to follow the distribution of the Deisi, who appear to share ancestry with the Leinster chieftains.

Much like L159.2, L144 is found mostly on the western coast of Great Britain.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: OConnor on September 20, 2011, 04:46:45 PM
I just ordered the Z255 test.

Thanks for the good news.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: rms2 on September 20, 2011, 07:08:51 PM
How many guys in both clades have Z255 results?


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on September 20, 2011, 07:53:49 PM
How many guys in both clades have Z255 results?

I know only of our L159.2 Murphy who just received his Z255+ result today through WTY. Dave Reynolds filled me in on this, by the way:

"Z255 just got more interesting. Previously, based on 1000 Genomes data, it was believed to be located at or above R-L144. The WTY results for kit 185218, R-L159.2 just came back, and it is also Z255+, including that Z255 is upstream from both R-L144 and R-L159.2".


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on September 20, 2011, 07:57:44 PM
DF23 (including M222), DF21, and L513 are also Z255-.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: OConnor on September 20, 2011, 08:04:25 PM
There are a fair number of  R1b1a2a1a1b4e       R-L144+
in the Whalen/Phelan Project.  I do not see any Z255+ people listed yet.
http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/whalen/result


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: Mark Jost on September 20, 2011, 08:06:59 PM
I may see it as a L159 only snp.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on September 20, 2011, 08:08:58 PM
I may see it as a L159 only snp.

It has been confirmed that L144+ samples have tested Z255+ as well.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: OConnor on September 20, 2011, 08:53:48 PM
another piece of the puzzle.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: Mark Jost on September 20, 2011, 09:33:28 PM
I think it pointed to being a fact but is was speculation occording to GregRM post DNA-Forumns stating

Posted 09 April 2011 - 19:40 PM

A draft phylogeny containing several additional candidate L21 SNPs indentified by the anonymous researcher and me is now posted at http://www.box.net/shared/7df64madd3 . Unlike DF1 and DF5, these have not been confirmed by sequencing at this point, and they have been given the names Z245-Z255 for the time being; the details have been added to the "L21 Candidate Variants" sheet at https://spreadsheets...=CIOag_UD#gid=3 .
 
Some notes:
 -A few of these are more speculative, and have been highlighted in orange; further details appear in the notes on the "L21 Candidate Variants" sheet
 -The researcher thinks that Z253 is a promising candidate for testing by Iberian L21 individuals
 -The possibility that Z255 would be phylogenetically equivalent to L144 could not be ruled out (hence the dashed line)
 -Z245 is currently placed with L21, though it could be upstream (or less likely, downstream)

http://www.box.net/shared/66415pac2c5gmrc8z5re


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on September 20, 2011, 09:33:35 PM
another piece of the puzzle.

It would be interesting to get someone who is L226+ to test for Z255 as well. So far, we are still waiting on L226 results to confirm Z255's relationship to that cluster as well.

A very interesting development, indeed...


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 20, 2011, 10:32:50 PM
I don't know if everyone realizes this, but all of the new SNPs and their effective "layering" of subclades will be helpful for TMRCA estimates.

Ken Nordtvedt already had built an interclade TMRCA calculation method which reduces error. He has extended it to do "nested" TMRCA calculations.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: F James on September 24, 2011, 06:33:49 AM
Does anyone know which  L144+ tested postive for Z255.  I'm sure its not a Whelan/Phelan,  but it might be a Brazile or Prosser in the WTY project.

NealtheRed,  have you any idea on the TRMCA between L159.2, L144 and L226??


Side note
I noticed on Rootsweb a while back that Kendal, L144+ (but different haplotype to the usual L144+)  was querying his result as a relative tested L144-.








Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on September 24, 2011, 03:41:06 PM
Does anyone know which  L144+ tested postive for Z255.  I'm sure its not a Whelan/Phelan,  but it might be a Brazile or Prosser in the WTY project.

NealtheRed,  have you any idea on the TRMCA between L159.2, L144 and L226??


Side note
I noticed on Rootsweb a while back that Kendal, L144+ (but different haplotype to the usual L144+)  was querying his result as a relative tested L144-.








I am not sure which L144+ sample tested Z255+, as it was in the 1000 Genomes Project. Dave Reynolds may be able to answer your question more aptly than me. We do know of the Z255+, L144/L159.2- and Z254+, Z255- samples. The former has ancestry from Cornwall, while the latter is from Orkney. 

As far as age estimates between L159.2 and L144, we have not calculated any interclade TMRCA figures. However, we have ascertained that L159.2 is likely 2000 years old based on our current sampling. Some recent L159.2+ results suggest it could be older. Kirsten Saxe is another great resource on this, as she is one of the R-WTY administrators.

The Kendal result appears to be a lab/clerical error. The L144 haplotype is very distinct, and I notice it among those that you mention (Prosser, Whalen/Phalen, MacLaughlin), as well as some Scottish Highlanders (Cameron, MacDonald, MacMasters). It looks to follow a similar distribution to L159.2, but could have an increased presence in Wales and Southwest England.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: F James on September 27, 2011, 03:48:33 AM
Thanks Nealthered,

It looks like the L144+ guy was from Hapmap? data.  A man from Utah with Western or Northern European ancestry.

Maybe I should get a Whelan guy tested for Z255.  Looking forward to seeing more results.

PS; I'm not sure MacMaster is L144,   he is in J haplogroup,  but has 413a/b = 16/17.
Though going by haplotype and matches,  Durie from Scotland, Cameron from Isle of Tiree Scotland and Dorris from County Down all look to match MacDonald and MacLaughlin,  and Braithwaite from Yorkshire might if he tested to 67.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on September 27, 2011, 08:01:31 AM
Thanks Nealthered,

It looks like the L144+ guy was from Hapmap? data.  A man from Utah with Western or Northern European ancestry.

Maybe I should get a Whelan guy tested for Z255.  Looking forward to seeing more results.

PS; I'm not sure MacMaster is L144,   he is in J haplogroup,  but has 413a/b = 16/17.
Though going by haplotype and matches,  Durie from Scotland, Cameron from Isle of Tiree Scotland and Dorris from County Down all look to match MacDonald and MacLaughlin,  and Braithwaite from Yorkshire might if he tested to 67.

The R1b MacMaster who is a close match to one of the L144+ Whalens can be found by his Ysearch ID: 8G53X

I notice all the above names as matches, and predict them to test Z255+, L144+.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: OConnor on September 30, 2011, 04:47:38 AM
I recieved my DF21- result.


Now I await my Z255 result.

Z255(Z255)  11/07/2011 
Batch/431


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on September 30, 2011, 09:25:01 PM
I recieved my DF21- result.


Now I await my Z255 result.

Z255(Z255)  11/07/2011 
Batch/431

Excellent, Mike. I look forward to your Z255 result!


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on October 14, 2011, 08:15:43 AM
Kirsten Saxe just informed me that the CCGG/L159.2- McConnell lineage has tested Z255+! It looks very promising now in connecting our Irish Sea L159.2- folks with the L159.2+ ones.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: F James on October 14, 2011, 10:35:38 PM
Great news Nealthered,

Do you know if any men from L226 or South Irish Type sub groups have tested for Z255? 

Ive ordered Z255 for my L144+ relative. 
I saw a recent post on Rootsweb that Kendall and one of his relatives are  L144+,  and another Kendall relative is L144-.  It was suggested to Scott that they test for Z255 aswell. 


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: F James on October 14, 2011, 11:13:14 PM
I just checked out the SNP pages at L226 and South Irish projects.
No Z255+.  


L226 Project
Brown L226+ Z255-
(Casey L226+, Z253+)    I can't remember where Z253 fits in.


South Irish Project
Stabley Z255-
Carroll Z255-


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on October 15, 2011, 08:42:53 AM
I just checked out the SNP pages at L226 and South Irish projects.
No Z255+.  


L226 Project
Brown L226+ Z255-
(Casey L226+, Z253+)    I can't remember where Z253 fits in.


South Irish Project
Stabley Z255-
Carroll Z255-

Thank you for clarifying this. I did not know L226's relation to Z255 up to now. I want to say Z253 is on another lineage connecting to L226 (separate from Z254/Z255), but I have to check on that.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: OConnor on October 18, 2011, 07:20:08 AM
I turned out Z255-
We shall see if other L159.2+ are also Z255-

P312+ P25+ M343+ M269+ M207+ M173+ L21+ L159.2+ Z255- SRY2627- P66- M73- M65- M37- M222- M18- M160- M153- M126- L96- L195- L193- L192.1- L144- L130- DF21-


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on October 18, 2011, 09:31:01 AM
I turned out Z255-
We shall see if other L159.2+ are also Z255-

P312+ P25+ M343+ M269+ M207+ M173+ L21+ L159.2+ Z255- SRY2627- P66- M73- M65- M37- M222- M18- M160- M153- M126- L96- L195- L193- L192.1- L144- L130- DF21-

That's odd. I never got notification of your results, but I see it now on your Haplotree. Thanks for letting us know, Mike. With more results, we will figure out how it fits in with the grand scheme of things.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: OConnor on October 18, 2011, 01:29:50 PM
I sent ftdna another email. They suggested earlier that they would look over the raw data. Hopefully i will get some answers soon.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: rms2 on October 18, 2011, 06:50:14 PM
I turned out Z255-
We shall see if other L159.2+ are also Z255-

P312+ P25+ M343+ M269+ M207+ M173+ L21+ L159.2+ Z255- SRY2627- P66- M73- M65- M37- M222- M18- M160- M153- M126- L96- L195- L193- L192.1- L144- L130- DF21-

Didn't you say you had a y-dna relative who tested L159.2-? How did that work out with FTDNA?

Did they re-check both of you for L159.2?


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: OConnor on October 19, 2011, 03:04:41 PM
i haven't had a reply yet. The email i sent yesterday to ftdna had both my cousin's and mine kit numbers, and results.

Hopefully i will hear something soon. I was told last week that if I didn't get a response from Thomas Krahn by last weekend to let them know. So i did that yesterday, and now I wait.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: OConnor on October 21, 2011, 06:30:13 PM
ftdna is going to re-run my L159.2 test.
Also I got an answer from Thomas via ftdna as to the stability of R-L159.2

"L159 is a marker that is composed of an intercalation of a poly G
homopolymer with a (TG)n dinucleotide STR. We need to expect STR like
mutation mechanisms from both directions, therefore the mutation
frequency will be more similar to an STR (rather than a SNP).

I personally wouldn't trust the stability at a phylogenetic level beyond
the genealogically relevant time frame. However we didn't explicitly
collect stability data such as mutation frequencies for this kind of
markers"


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on October 21, 2011, 07:57:15 PM
ftdna is going to re-run my L159.2 test.
Also I got an answer from Thomas via ftdna as to the stability of R-L159.2

"L159 is a marker that is composed of an intercalation of a poly G
homopolymer with a (TG)n dinucleotide STR. We need to expect STR like
mutation mechanisms from both directions, therefore the mutation
frequency will be more similar to an STR (rather than a SNP).

I personally wouldn't trust the stability at a phylogenetic level beyond
the genealogically relevant time frame. However we didn't explicitly
collect stability data such as mutation frequencies for this kind of
markers"

Yes, Thomas Krahn mentioned this when L159.2 testing started to take off. I am glad we found Z255 (and Z254) to unite the Irish Sea Modal folks and those that are outliers but obviously are related.

I hope you come out positive, Mike, as always. Then again, there is always Z254 testing if you want to consider that later.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: rms2 on October 21, 2011, 08:11:38 PM
ftdna is going to re-run my L159.2 test.
Also I got an answer from Thomas via ftdna as to the stability of R-L159.2

"L159 is a marker that is composed of an intercalation of a poly G
homopolymer with a (TG)n dinucleotide STR. We need to expect STR like
mutation mechanisms from both directions, therefore the mutation
frequency will be more similar to an STR (rather than a SNP).

I personally wouldn't trust the stability at a phylogenetic level beyond
the genealogically relevant time frame. However we didn't explicitly
collect stability data such as mutation frequencies for this kind of
markers"

That requires some translation, but it doesn't sound like the typical, straightforward SNP. I had heard something similar back when L159.2 was first discovered, which is why I felt some misgivings about it. But then it got added to the YCC Tree, so there it is.

Good luck with it!


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: rms2 on October 21, 2011, 10:48:43 PM
Are you all sure L144 is downstream of Z255?

Prosser, kit 57993, Ysearch YYQVA, who is L144+, just got a Z255- result.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: seferhabahir on October 22, 2011, 12:12:10 AM
Are you all sure L144 is downstream of Z255?

Prosser, kit 57993, Ysearch YYQVA, who is L144+, just got a Z255- result.

Well, maybe neither L144+ nor L159.2+ are downstream of Z255, contrary to popular belief. This week is just full of surprises.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: seferhabahir on October 22, 2011, 12:16:49 AM
Are you all sure L144 is downstream of Z255?

Prosser, kit 57993, Ysearch YYQVA, who is L144+, just got a Z255- result.

Well, maybe neither L144+ nor L159.2+ are downstream of Z255, contrary to popular belief. This week is just full of surprises.

I think I'll go have some Highland Park 18 and practice being Celtic...


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 22, 2011, 01:47:48 AM
Are you all sure L144 is downstream of Z255?

Prosser, kit 57993, Ysearch YYQVA, who is L144+, just got a Z255- result.

Well, maybe neither L144+ nor L159.2+ are downstream of Z255, contrary to popular belief. This week is just full of surprises.
Is Z255 suspected of being unstable?
What was the SNP that both L144 and L159.2 were found positive on?  Z255 or Z253?

The Z's are getting a bit confusing.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: saphorr on October 22, 2011, 08:24:23 AM
Is Z255 suspected of being unstable?
What was the SNP that both L144 and L159.2 were found positive on?  Z255 or Z253?

The Z's are getting a bit confusing.

That was Z255.

Z253 is the one which united L226 and L554.  That result looks like it's here to stay at least.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on October 22, 2011, 08:52:12 AM
Are you all sure L144 is downstream of Z255?

Prosser, kit 57993, Ysearch YYQVA, who is L144+, just got a Z255- result.

Interesting. The 1000 Genomes L144+ tested Z255+ as well. Either this has been a surprising week, or maybe there are some lab errors.

As far as the stability, Z255 has been consistent thus far in connecting L159.2+ and L159.2- Irish Sea lineages.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on October 22, 2011, 10:51:44 AM
I found an interesting diagram illustrating the relationship between Z254/Z255 and L144. Notice the serrated line from Z255 to L144 implying that the L144+ sample is Z255+.

Click here: http://www.box.net/shared/qljxuisx9a

Maybe the relationship between Z255 and L144 was not confirmed. On the other hand, we are at a 100% Z255+ testing rate for the Irish Sea Modal folks.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: rms2 on October 22, 2011, 11:08:49 AM
Well, I noticed in the earlier posts that no one could actually name an L144+ man who was Z255+. Now we have a real L144+ man who has been tested for Z255 and found to be negative for it.

So, was the supposed Z255/L144 connection a mistake, based on hearsay? That's what it looks like.

We do have some L159.2+ guys who are Z255+, however; so the connection there is confirmed.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on October 22, 2011, 11:49:23 AM
Well, I noticed in the earlier posts that no one could actually name an L144+ man who was Z255+. Now we have a real L144+ man who has been tested for Z255 and found to be negative for it.

So, was the supposed Z255/L144 connection a mistake, based on hearsay? That's what it looks like.

We do have some L159.2+ guys who are Z255+, however; so the connection there is confirmed.

Ambiguity was definitely involved. I looked over a message from Kirsten Saxe about the two samples from 1000 Genomes that tested positive for Z255:

"you should be able to see that Z255 was
 found in two individuals in the 1000 Genomes project, one of whom also is
believed to carry the L144 SNP
."

Quality assurance, anyone?


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: rms2 on October 22, 2011, 12:02:10 PM
This could be a good thing. L159.2 was always a little shaky. If Z255 is a "traditional" SNP, and if all L159.2+ guys are positive for it, it may be a step up, an improvement.

(I am not sure what Mike's situation is. Since he has a y-dna relative who is L159.2-, and Mike himself tested Z255-, he may in fact be L159.2-. Or perhaps his version of L159.2 is more an STR mutation than anything else.)


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: seferhabahir on October 22, 2011, 02:19:35 PM
So, was the supposed Z255/L144 connection a mistake, based on hearsay? That's what it looks like.

We do have some L159.2+ guys who are Z255+, however; so the connection there is confirmed.

I was referring to the anomalous Mr. O'Connor:

N12172    Andrew O'Connor 1802 S.Ireland R1b1a2a1a1b4f    

DF21-, L130-, L144-, L159.2+, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L21+, L96-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P25+, P312+, P66-, SRY2627-, Z255-


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on October 22, 2011, 02:50:27 PM
So, was the supposed Z255/L144 connection a mistake, based on hearsay? That's what it looks like.

We do have some L159.2+ guys who are Z255+, however; so the connection there is confirmed.

I was referring to the anomalous Mr. O'Connor:

N12172    Andrew O'Connor 1802 S.Ireland R1b1a2a1a1b4f    

DF21-, L130-, L144-, L159.2+, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L21+, L96-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P25+, P312+, P66-, SRY2627-, Z255-

Mike's L159.2+ result may be due to a lab error, so FTDNA is rerunning the test. Moreover, his cousin returned L159.2-.

His haplotype deviates considerably from the Irish Sea Modal, which is defined by a number of STR values:

DYS448: 18
CDYa/b: 38 or higher, 39 or higher
DYS442: 11
DYS557: 17
DYS446: 14

Those L159.2+ members who match the above modal and test for Z255 are all returning Z255+.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: rms2 on October 22, 2011, 08:08:38 PM
Ever since I heard that Mike's y-dna relative got an L159.2- result, I suspected that Mike was the one with the erroneous L159.2 result (although I could be wrong, obviously). I remembered reading one of your exchanges with him in which the two of you discussed how different his haplotype is from the usual L159.2 folks.

His recent Z255- result just seems to be more evidence that he is probably not L159.2+.

We'll see how FTDNA's re-test comes out.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 22, 2011, 08:30:09 PM
Ever since I heard that Mike's y-dna relative got an L159.2- result, I suspected that Mike was the one with the erroneous L159.2 result (although I could be wrong, obviously). I remembered reading one of your exchanges with him in which the two of you discussed how different his haplotype is from the usual L159.2 folks.

His recent Z255- result just seems to be more evidence that he is probably not L159.2+.

We'll see how FTDNA's re-test comes out.
His STRs are quite a bit different than the Irish Sea folks.  If he comes out L159+ I also think we should call it it L159.3+


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: F James on October 22, 2011, 10:57:48 PM
Well, I noticed in the earlier posts that no one could actually name an L144+ man who was Z255+. Now we have a real L144+ man who has been tested for Z255 and found to be negative for it.

So, was the supposed Z255/L144 connection a mistake, based on hearsay? That's what it looks like.

We do have some L159.2+ guys who are Z255+, however; so the connection there is confirmed.

Prosser tested Z255-  so I'm sure my Whelan relative will aswell.
I'm not sure if Kendall, who is L144+ and of a different haplotype, is testing for Z255.  Robert Hughes may know as all three guys are in his 17-14-10 project

Unfortunately we have no idea of the identity or haplotype of the L144+ man in the 1000 genomes project who is supposedly Z255+. 


I'll get my relative tested for Z254 when that comes out.



Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: rms2 on October 23, 2011, 05:59:46 AM
I suspect there is no L144+ man who is Z255+ but rather that there was a miscommunication somewhere.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: rms2 on October 26, 2011, 07:01:10 PM
I suspect there is no L144+ man who is Z255+ but rather that there was a miscommunication somewhere.

It looks like I was right. Whelan, kit 83115, who is L144+, just got his Z255- result.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: Jdean on October 26, 2011, 07:11:32 PM
I suspect there is no L144+ man who is Z255+ but rather that there was a miscommunication somewhere.

It looks like I was right. Whelan, kit 83115, who is L144+, just got his Z255- result.

Tis a shame, hopefully the misreading was with Z155 and not L144 and Z254 will bring more luck.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on October 26, 2011, 07:45:33 PM
I suspect there is no L144+ man who is Z255+ but rather that there was a miscommunication somewhere.

It looks like I was right. Whelan, kit 83115, who is L144+, just got his Z255- result.

Thanks for keeping us all posted, Rich! We were waiting on that result. So it looks like L159.2 is the only descendant of Z255 thus far.

And I agree with JDean. We need to establish if L144 is downstream of Z254 as well. I doubt that though, considering everything was based on that 1000 Genomes sample that was assumed to be L144+.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on October 26, 2011, 07:54:12 PM
I suspect there is no L144+ man who is Z255+ but rather that there was a miscommunication somewhere.

It looks like I was right. Whelan, kit 83115, who is L144+, just got his Z255- result.

Tis a shame, hopefully the misreading was with Z155 and not L144 and Z254 will bring more luck.

I think the problem was that there was no call on the L144 status of one of the 1000 Genomes samples which tested Z255+.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: rms2 on October 26, 2011, 08:15:11 PM
Yeah, I got the impression someone over at dna-forums (which place I gladly no longer frequent) thought a Z255+ guy might be L144+, and somehow that got interpreted as a confirmed Z255+ L144+ result, which apparently it never was.

It's kind of like that old game in which someone passes information, which is then subsequently passed in succession to a  number of people in a circle. By the time the tale gets back to its originator, it has been altered almost beyond recognition.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on October 26, 2011, 08:43:18 PM
Yeah, I got the impression someone over at dna-forums (which place I gladly no longer frequent) thought a Z255+ guy might be L144+, and somehow that got interpreted as a confirmed Z255+ L144+ result, which apparently it never was.

It's kind of like that old game in which someone passes information, which is then subsequently passed in succession to a  number of people in a circle. By the time the tale gets back to its originator, it has been altered almost beyond recognition.

Yeah, and these new results do not lie. They confirm what some suspected.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: saphorr on October 26, 2011, 11:53:06 PM
Yeah, and these new results do not lie. They confirm what some suspected.

Well, it's at least gratifying to learn that the uncertainty was there from the beginning.

I'm still trying to piece it together but I get the impression that the reason L144 was suspected to be underneath Z255 was somehow connected to the fact that Z255 was known to be below Z254 (the two Z255+ samples in 1000 Genomes data were both Z254+, plus there was one more Z254+ which was Z255-).

The only thing I can think was that L144 was believed for some reason to be Z254+?  It still wouldn't follow from that that L144 should be below Z255, but at least the L144 wouldn't be coming out of nowhere.

Maybe it is the case that L144 is downstream of Z254 and a brother clade to Z255.  I guess we won't know until there is a Z254 test, although hopefully by then someone who knows what's going on will have pored over the data and clarified this confusing situation.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on October 27, 2011, 12:47:01 AM
Yeah, and these new results do not lie. They confirm what some suspected.

Well, it's at least gratifying to learn that the uncertainty was there from the beginning.

I'm still trying to piece it together but I get the impression that the reason L144 was suspected to be underneath Z255 was somehow connected to the fact that Z255 was known to be below Z254 (the two Z255+ samples in 1000 Genomes data were both Z254+, plus there was one more Z254+ which was Z255-).

The only thing I can think was that L144 was believed for some reason to be Z254+?  It still wouldn't follow from that that L144 should be below Z255, but at least the L144 wouldn't be coming out of nowhere.

Maybe it is the case that L144 is downstream of Z254 and a brother clade to Z255.  I guess we won't know until there is a Z254 test, although hopefully by then someone who knows what's going on will have pored over the data and clarified this confusing situation.

That could certainly be the case, but I think the relationship was supposed based on the Z255+ sample being L144+. Since we know Z255 is downstream of Z254, then the assumed L144+ was Z254+ by default. That may well change now, but like you say, we will see!


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: Jdean on October 27, 2011, 08:42:56 AM
Yeah, I got the impression someone over at dna-forums (which place I gladly no longer frequent) thought a Z255+ guy might be L144+, and somehow that got interpreted as a confirmed Z255+ L144+ result, which apparently it never was.

I think this was a case of human error rather than miscommunication.

The person responsible for the call made a request for others involved in scouring the 1000 Genome data to review the sample to see if they could work out where he'd gone wrong.

I think this was the same person who found other L21 SNPs which have proved valid.

Of course the chap in the 1000 genome project could be L144.2


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: rms2 on October 27, 2011, 10:18:24 AM
. . .

Of course the chap in the 1000 genome project could be L144.2

I hope not! Too much of that would be like a heavy SNP fog obscuring the view.

The same SNP appearing independently in two different and mutually exclusive L21+ lines seems unlikely, not to mention messy.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: Jdean on October 27, 2011, 11:27:18 AM
. . .

Of course the chap in the 1000 genome project could be L144.2

I hope not! Too much of that would be like a heavy SNP fog obscuring the view.

The same SNP appearing independently in two different and mutually exclusive L21+ lines seems unlikely, not to mention messy.

No I don't think that's a likely scenario either I was just covering all the bases.

I would like to hear how the error was made though, but of course it makes little difference now. Either way the testing of L159 was useful.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 27, 2011, 12:51:15 PM
Yeah, I got the impression someone over at dna-forums (which place I gladly no longer frequent) thought a Z255+ guy might be L144+, and somehow that got interpreted as a confirmed Z255+ L144+ result, which apparently it never was.

I think this was a case of human error rather than miscommunication.

The person responsible for the call made a request for others involved in scouring the 1000 Genome data to review the sample to see if they could work out where he'd gone wrong.

I think this was the same person who found other L21 SNPs which have proved valid.

Of course the chap in the 1000 genome project could be L144.2
I doubt if there is an L144.2.

Yes, the volunteer/hobbyist researcher has been a great help to L21 in identifying these new SNPs and speculating as to their placement.  I think he's always called these positionings as "tentative." I don't want to scare him away, I think he's really a U106 guy just being extra passionate in helping the rest of us.

All of the speculation just gives us reasons to test, which is where the confirmation IS or IS NOT. There is no substitute for the testing.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: saphorr on October 27, 2011, 01:23:41 PM
I doubt if there is an L144.2.

Yes, the volunteer/hobbyist researcher has been a great help to L21 in identifying these new SNPs and speculating as to their placement.  I think he's always called these positionings as "tentative." I don't want to scare him away, I think he's really a U106 guy just being extra passionate in helping the rest of us.

All of the speculation just gives us reasons to test, which is where the confirmation IS or IS NOT. There is no substitute for the testing.

I absolutely agree the caveats were there from the beginning and it's unfortunate the message was muddled along the way.  What I'd like to know is why L144 was thought to be below Z255 in the beginning.

The draft phylogeny mentioning Z255 was first referenced in a DNA Forums post of April 9.  That draft phylogeny is here: http://www.box.net/shared/7df64madd3 (http://www.box.net/shared/7df64madd3).  The Z254 branch which contains Z255 and L144 has references to three 1000 Genomes samples: HG00119, HG00246, and NA12762.

It's stated in the same message that HG00246 was a no-call for L144.  Other messages from the R-L21 list make it clear that the following results hold:
HG00119: Z254+ Z255-
HG00246: Z254+ Z255+
NA12762: Z254+ Z255+

My question is, what are the L144 results for the other two 1000 Genomes samples, HG00119 and NA12762?  Finding that out could resolve this confusion right now.

If HG00119 is L144- and NA12762 is L144+, as the draft phylogeny suggests, then we have a real conundrum and we have to look at the possibility of a L144.2 or maybe a back mutation to L144-.  If one or more are no-calls, then there are other possibilities.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: F James on October 27, 2011, 09:16:41 PM
If  Kendall L144+ tests for Z255 we may have an partial answer for two seperate L144 lines.

His haplotype is very different to the Whelan/Bracewell/Prosser/Maclaughlin/Clark  L144 haplotype.
It has been suggested that he test for Z255 as the Kendall family cluster "Group 1"  have three L144 tests,  2 positve and 1 negative.   If they are Z255+  they must be a seperate L144 line.

Kendall also posted a reply on Rootsweb that he had from FTDNA about the Kendall L144 tests:
"I followed up with the lab about L144. It is surrounded by a DNA
sequence that is more likely to experience mutations, making it
possible for this SNP to mutate back and forth. It can still be useful
to test this SNP, but it is perhaps a little less reliable than other
SNPs."




I'll have my Whelan L144+ relative test for Z254 when it becomes available. 


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on October 27, 2011, 09:38:28 PM
That sounded similar to the status of L159.2 when it was first announced.

We will see if the L144+ Whalens are Z254+. Thank you for keeping us posted on the results!

I spoke with the Kendall administrator, and he is testing for Z255 now.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on October 31, 2011, 02:22:32 PM
If  Kendall L144+ tests for Z255 we may have an partial answer for two seperate L144 lines.

His haplotype is very different to the Whelan/Bracewell/Prosser/Maclaughlin/Clark  L144 haplotype.
It has been suggested that he test for Z255 as the Kendall family cluster "Group 1"  have three L144 tests,  2 positve and 1 negative.   If they are Z255+  they must be a seperate L144 line.

Kendall also posted a reply on Rootsweb that he had from FTDNA about the Kendall L144 tests:
"I followed up with the lab about L144. It is surrounded by a DNA
sequence that is more likely to experience mutations, making it
possible for this SNP to mutate back and forth. It can still be useful
to test this SNP, but it is perhaps a little less reliable than other
SNPs."




I'll have my Whelan L144+ relative test for Z254 when it becomes available. 


Z254 is officially available to order.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: Jdean on October 31, 2011, 04:54:33 PM

Z254 is officially available to order.

I'll be ordering this one when my DF23 neg result comes through :)


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: F James on November 01, 2011, 06:20:18 AM
Just ordering Z254 now for Whelan,  if its negative then I'll think about Z253 and or DF23.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on November 01, 2011, 09:55:31 AM
Just ordering Z254 now for Whelan,  if its negative then I'll think about Z253 and or DF23.

I will be pulling for both you and JDean!


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: Jdean on November 02, 2011, 02:51:10 PM
Just ordering Z254 now for Whelan,  if its negative then I'll think about Z253 and or DF23.

I will be pulling for both you and JDean!

Thanks for that, and as luck would have it my DF23 neg result has just come in so I can make the deadline for ordering L254.

Getting all these negative results is a lot less painful when they don't keeping you hanging around for weeks (months for some) on end :)


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on November 02, 2011, 03:16:11 PM
Just ordering Z254 now for Whelan,  if its negative then I'll think about Z253 and or DF23.

I will be pulling for both you and JDean!

Thanks for that, and as luck would have it my DF23 neg result has just come in so I can make the deadline for ordering L254.

Getting all these negative results is a lot less painful when they don't keeping you hanging around for weeks (months for some) on end :)

That's a good point. I have been noticing these SNP results coming back a lot quicker than before. Hopefully, you get a positive on Z254.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: OConnor on November 03, 2011, 07:45:23 AM
a big surprise

I tested R-L159.2-

It's back to the R-L21 drawing board. :(


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: rms2 on November 03, 2011, 07:48:06 PM
a big surprise

I tested R-L159.2-

It's back to the R-L21 drawing board. :(

Honestly, that is no surprise to me. I kind of expected it when you posted that your y-dna relative got an L159.2- result. Back to the Ireland category for you! ;-)

Have you ordered DF23 yet?


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: OConnor on November 03, 2011, 08:19:11 PM
No I haven't ordered DF23.

I will have a look around over the next few days to see what  I should test for.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: F James on November 10, 2011, 07:15:24 PM
Whelan is L144+, Z254-, Z255-


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on November 10, 2011, 10:21:43 PM
Whelan is L144+, Z254-, Z255-

Thank you, FJames. I was hoping for a positive result, but it is informative nevertheless. Do you know of any other L144+ folks who ordered Z254?


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on November 10, 2011, 10:37:31 PM
Speaking of other Z254 results, an L159.2+ sample returned Z254- as well!


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: F James on November 11, 2011, 05:52:51 AM
Whelan is L144+, Z254-, Z255-

Thank you, FJames. I was hoping for a positive result, but it is informative nevertheless. Do you know of any other L144+ folks who ordered Z254?
I'm not aware of any other L144 guys ordering Z254,  definately none in the Whelan project.
I see Kendall came in Z255-,  I dont know if he or Prosser have ordered Z254 aswell.

Have there been any Z254+ results today?




Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: Jdean on November 11, 2011, 07:05:15 AM
Whelan is L144+, Z254-, Z255-

Thank you, FJames. I was hoping for a positive result, but it is informative nevertheless. Do you know of any other L144+ folks who ordered Z254?
I'm not aware of any other L144 guys ordering Z254,  definately none in the Whelan project.
I see Kendall came in Z255-,  I dont know if he or Prosser have ordered Z254 aswell.

Have there been any Z254+ results today?





None that I'm aware of.

It was reported on DNA-Forums today that the 1000 Genome data for this loci was a bit flakey, I think that's the kind of information I may have liked to have heard before I ordered it !!

Unfortunately it appears Z251 suffers from the same problem so I may sit that one out a bit when it becomes available.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: rms2 on November 11, 2011, 08:23:25 AM
Whelan is L144+, Z254-, Z255-

Thank you, FJames. I was hoping for a positive result, but it is informative nevertheless. Do you know of any other L144+ folks who ordered Z254?
I'm not aware of any other L144 guys ordering Z254,  definately none in the Whelan project.
I see Kendall came in Z255-,  I dont know if he or Prosser have ordered Z254 aswell.

Have there been any Z254+ results today?




Quite a few, but, unless I missed one, all of them were negative.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on November 11, 2011, 10:52:43 AM
Whelan is L144+, Z254-, Z255-

Thank you, FJames. I was hoping for a positive result, but it is informative nevertheless. Do you know of any other L144+ folks who ordered Z254?
I'm not aware of any other L144 guys ordering Z254,  definately none in the Whelan project.
I see Kendall came in Z255-,  I dont know if he or Prosser have ordered Z254 aswell.

Have there been any Z254+ results today?





None that I'm aware of.

It was reported on DNA-Forums today that the 1000 Genome data for this loci was a bit flakey, I think that's the kind of information I may have liked to have heard before I ordered it !!

Unfortunately it appears Z251 suffers from the same problem so I may sit that one out a bit when it becomes available.

Yeah, it seems that a lot of it is flaky.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: Jdean on November 11, 2011, 01:58:43 PM
Quote from: NealtheRed link=topic=10091.msg125763#msg125763
Yeah, it seems that a lot of it is flaky.
[/quote

To be fair we've had a lot of successes from the analysis of the 1000 Genome project, this little section appears to have gone slightly haywire though. First we had the L144 hiccup and now this.

I thought I was boxing clever waiting for Z254 ,after having paid for both DF5 and DF21, but now it looks like I shall be ordering 255 after all, I do feel a bit cheesed off.

Oh I'm Z254 neg BTW :)


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: NealtheRed on November 11, 2011, 04:53:20 PM

To be fair we've had a lot of successes from the analysis of the 1000 Genome project, this little section appears to have gone slightly haywire though. First we had the L144 hiccup and now this.

I thought I was boxing clever waiting for Z254 ,after having paid for both DF5 and DF21, but now it looks like I shall be ordering 255 after all, I do feel a bit cheesed off.

Oh I'm Z254 neg BTW :)

Right. It seems to be the case now that Z255 people are Z254- too, so you are not alone, JDean!

It begs the question: How were those Z255+ samples in 1000 Genomes deemed to be Z254+? At this point, it has become so convoluted that I would rather not know.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 11, 2011, 05:28:15 PM

To be fair we've had a lot of successes from the analysis of the 1000 Genome project, this little section appears to have gone slightly haywire though. First we had the L144 hiccup and now this.

I thought I was boxing clever waiting for Z254 ,after having paid for both DF5 and DF21, but now it looks like I shall be ordering 255 after all, I do feel a bit cheesed off.

Oh I'm Z254 neg BTW :)

Right. It seems to be the case now that Z255 people are Z254- too, so you are not alone, JDean!

It begs the question: How were those Z255+ samples in 1000 Genomes deemed to be Z254+? At this point, it has become so convoluted that I would rather not know.
GregRM posted today on this. He said that Z254 is listed on the "speculative" chart in yellow, which meant it was a question mark.
Some of this is just not necessarily understanding the details of how GregRM and the anonymous researcher for the 1000 HG project data communicating.  I plead guilty on not reading the fine print. They were very careful to label everything speculative.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: F James on November 11, 2011, 10:33:40 PM
Well,  a negative result tells us as much as a positve.
We can at least confirm/eliminate some of the specualtion from the 1000K project.


Title: Re: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2
Post by: Mark Jost on October 16, 2012, 11:53:41 AM
R1b-L21>DF13>Z255  A Young Clade Isles origin.

111(94) Markers  Sheet Mutation Rate:  0.22894

STRs not used: 385,389i,459,464,CDY,YCAII,395S1 & 413

L21 ALL (111Markers) 
YrsPerGen*  Count
30   N=1048

Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  Max  VAR   

SD
114.6   32.1  3,438.8  963.5  4,402.3  12.738  3.569


R1b-L21>DF13>Z255 ALL
YrsPerGen*  Count
30   N=38

Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  Max  VAR   SD

46.0  14.2  1,379.7  425.2  1,805.0  10.529  3.245


            

TRUE MRCA  InterClade AB Founder      
Pooled SD Clades  A & B  Interclade

YrsPerGen*
30

Interclade GAB: L21* for L21 ALL (111Markers) & R1b-L21>DF13>Z255 ALL

Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  PooledVar   

PooledSD
   
46.0  14.2  1,379.7  425.2  1,805.0  10.529  3.245


R1b-L21>DF13>Z255* Only  N=4
Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  Max  VAR   SD
49.9   14.8   1,496.0   442.8   1,938.8  11.417  3.379


R1b-L21>DF13>Z255>L159 only   N=33
Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  Max  VAR   SD

44.1  13.9     1,321.6  416.1  1,737.7  10.085  3.176



MJost