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Title: DF23
Post by: rms2 on September 19, 2011, 08:03:46 PM
I thought I would start a thread on this one, which came up over in that thread about DF21. DF23 is supposed to be between L21 and M222, so I for one am really interested in it. I came up negative for DF21, so I am hoping for a positive result on DF23 when it becomes available from FTDNA.

I got a reply from FTDNA back on 31 August saying that Thomas Krahn was working on DF23 and should have an update in about three weeks. In a couple of days I'm going to send FTDNA another email, because I see DF23 is not yet available.

I hope they get the test up and running soon!



Title: Re: DF23
Post by: eochaidh on September 20, 2011, 04:10:22 PM
I heard today that FTDNA is getting the primers this week to test DF23. Hopefully it all goes well and they'll be ready for public testing within the next few weeks!

I'm still waiting for my DF21 results, but I'm expecting to be found negative. If not, I'll be the only DF21 with a value of 24 at DYS481, and I'll be out of "L21*" !


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on September 20, 2011, 06:50:56 PM
Well, I'm hoping we both are DF23+. How about that? ;-)

Honestly, I'll be disappointed if I'm not, but I'll deal with it if that's the case, I guess.

It will be interesting to see how DF23 pans out geographically. I predict it will sell like hotcakes.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mark Jost on September 20, 2011, 07:37:21 PM
Here is the STRs that was present for analysis from the secret Researcher. I added the modal to compare with

   393   390   19   391   385a   385b   439   389i   392   389ii-i   437   448   GataH4   456   438   DYS635
L21   13   24   14   11   11   14   12   13   13   16   15   19   11   16   12   23
NA12154   14   24   14   13   11   14   11   13   14   15   15   19   11   17   12   23


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mark Jost on September 20, 2011, 07:45:23 PM
I forgot to add the main paper and the sup data file link

He M, Gitschier J, Zerjal T, de Knijff P, Tyler-Smith C, et al. 2009 Geographical Affinities of the HapMap Samples. PLoS ONE 4(3): e4684. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0004684

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0004684

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0004684#s5


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: eochaidh on September 20, 2011, 09:32:49 PM
Well, I'm hoping we both are DF23+. How about that? ;-)


I like that! I hope the same for you!


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on September 21, 2011, 08:44:27 AM
Here is the STRs that was present for analysis from the secret Researcher. I added the modal to compare with

   393   390   19   391   385a   385b   439   389i   392   389ii-i   437   448   GataH4   456   438   DYS635
L21   13   24   14   11   11   14   12   13   13   16   15   19   11   16   12   23
NA12154   14   24   14   13   11   14   11   13   14   15   15   19   11   17   12   23


I'm confused, Mark. Is that "NA12154" haplotype DF23+?

And can you perhaps point out the relevant parts of the papers at the links you posted?


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mark Jost on September 21, 2011, 10:16:21 AM

Yes, "NA12154" haplotype DF23+.

Here is the link to GregRM's post which he states:

http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/15595-new-snp-for-l21-df23-upstream-of-m222/page__view__findpost__p__261341

"I'm pleased to convey news that the researcher who has been discovering the Y-SNPs in the DF series has confirmed yet another new SNP under L21, named DF23. It looks like DF23 will be upstream of M222 (i.e. some L21* individuals will be DF23+, and all M222+ individuals will be DF23+). ... We were able to identify this as a candidate using the combination of 1000 Genomes Project data and the whole-genome data of Jay Flatley (CEO of Illumina) ...

Our investigation of the data showed a couple of candidate SNPs shared by both Jay Flatley (who we found to be M222+) and NA12154 (an anonymous Utahn in the "CEU" population group; L21+, M222-) from the 1000 Genomes Project data.

The researcher developed a set of primers to test for one of these candidates, DF23, and confirmed that it was genuine through conventional Sanger/capillary sequencing of a M222+ sample (turned out DF23+) and a L21+/M222- sample (DF23-).  ...

Some limited STR data for NA12154 is available from a paper..."
 
This paper is through The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute points out that CEU samples are better described as being of Western European ancestry than of Northern European ancestry.

GregRM pointed out (for those interested) that the Supp has STR data that the Researcher pointed out was available for the unknown person that has the new SNP that he discovered.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 21, 2011, 10:23:47 AM
Quote
Our investigation of the data showed a couple of candidate SNPs shared by both Jay Flatley (who we found to be M222+) and NA12154 (an anonymous Utahn in the "CEU" population group; L21+, M222-) from the 1000 Genomes Project data.

The researcher developed a set of primers to test for one of these candidates, DF23, and confirmed that it was genuine through conventional Sanger/capillary sequencing of a M222+ sample (turned out DF23+) and a L21+/M222- sample (DF23-).  ...

I don't know if this well appreciated across R1b folks, but we have tremendous thanks to go out to people like GregRM, RRocca, David Reynolds, Kirsten Saxe, etc. I am missing some names but there is also the anonymous researcher to whom we owe a great deal to. I've got my suspicions but there are people digging into a lot of raw data in the human genome scanning projects and WTY to identify SNPs.  Many times these people are working outside their own haplogroups.

Thanks!

Here is GregRM's speculative depiction of some of the new SNP discoveries in the R-L21 tree:
http://www.box.net/shared/66415pac2c5gmrc8z5re
Even though this is a little ahead of the Krahn's draft tree it is still a bit behind. For example we now know Z255 is upstream of both L144 and L159.2. DF21 is also found apparently above P314.2.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: NealtheRed on September 21, 2011, 05:19:07 PM
I apologize for my apparent ignorance, but does DF23 appear to be promising for L21* folks?


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: eochaidh on September 21, 2011, 06:08:21 PM
DF23 holds promise for those L21* guys who have tested negative for everything else and don't belong to any haplotype group. Since it is upstream of M222+ it also holds promise for people like me who have some similarities to M222+
DYS390=25, DYS449=30, DYS481=24, plus I show up near or next to M222+ quite often on charts and graphs.
When you belong to no group and have tested negative for everything, any possible SNP holds promise!


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on September 21, 2011, 06:23:53 PM
It's promising to me, too, even though my haplotype is not even close to the "Niall" thingy, simply because I would like to be on the same branch as M222. That just seems cool to me.

I need to move a step beyond L21, and DF23 seems like a good way to go.

I'll probably be negative for it, but what the heck?


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 21, 2011, 11:33:07 PM
.... I need to move a step beyond L21, and DF23 seems like a good way to go. ..
You might want to watch Z255 or Z245 as well.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Jdean on September 22, 2011, 03:58:05 AM
.... I need to move a step beyond L21, and DF23 seems like a good way to go. ..
You might want to watch Z255 or Z245 as well.


Did you mean to say Z254 (apparently upstream of Z255) ?

Z245 is currently thought to be equivalent to L21 & L459 though testing is limited.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 22, 2011, 06:32:35 AM
.... I need to move a step beyond L21, and DF23 seems like a good way to go. ..
You might want to watch Z255 or Z245 as well.


Did you mean to say Z254 (apparently upstream of Z255) ?

Z245 is currently thought to be equivalent to L21 & L459 though testing is limited.

No, I meant Z245.

Quote from: David Reynolds
Yes, so far all of the R-L21 samples tests are Z245+. But it isn't a large number of data points, so I would say it is premature to write Z245 off as simply being equivalent to L21.

I think Z245 could be a large portion of L21* but not necessarily all. It's too early to write it off as being a equivalent to L21. Less than a handful of people have been tested for Z245.

Though I concede that L459 might be equivalent to L21 we are writing it off too soon as well.  Only about 30 people have tested for L459. There are several thousand L21* people who have not tested for L459.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Jdean on September 22, 2011, 07:53:16 AM

Quote from: David Reynolds
Yes, so far all of the R-L21 samples tests are Z245+. But it isn't a large number of data points, so I would say it is premature to write Z245 off as simply being equivalent to L21.

I think Z245 could be a large portion of L21* but not necessarily all. It's too early to write it off as being a equivalent to L21. Less than a handful of people have been tested for Z245.

Though I concede that L459 might be equivalent to L21 we are writing it off too soon as well.  Only about 30 people have tested for L459. There are several thousand L21* people who have not tested for L459.

As it happens I've been toying with the idea of ordering Z245, I hold little hope of belonging to what's left of the recognised downstream SNPs so feel my best chance lies with the ones thought to be close to L21 itself.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 22, 2011, 08:38:58 AM

Quote from: David Reynolds
Yes, so far all of the R-L21 samples tests are Z245+. But it isn't a large number of data points, so I would say it is premature to write Z245 off as simply being equivalent to L21.

I think Z245 could be a large portion of L21* but not necessarily all. It's too early to write it off as being a equivalent to L21. Less than a handful of people have been tested for Z245.

Though I concede that L459 might be equivalent to L21 we are writing it off too soon as well.  Only about 30 people have tested for L459. There are several thousand L21* people who have not tested for L459.

As it happens I've been toying with the idea of ordering Z245, I hold little hope of belonging to what's left of the recognised downstream SNPs so feel my best chance lies with the ones thought to be close to L21 itself.
It might be that R-L21+ Z245- people (or R-L21+ L459-) are small select groups. That doesn't mean you are closely related but at least you can eliminate thousands of others very quickly wit these SNP tests.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on September 22, 2011, 01:30:42 PM
.... I need to move a step beyond L21, and DF23 seems like a good way to go. ..
You might want to watch Z255 or Z245 as well.

Thanks for the heads up. So many new SNPs have come down the pike lately, it's hard to know north from south.

My dna testing budget and my wife's patience are both limited, so I have to be choosy. I want to test for DF23 because that one seems glamorous to me, so I will pay for it. I have no idea whether or not I have much of a chance of being positive for it - but it is cool, being the daddy of M222 and all. ;-)

The others I have to adopt a wait and see attitude on. I will only pay for those I think I might have a chance with (unless FTDNA suddenly lumps a whole bunch of them into its Deep Clade and the price becomes right).


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 22, 2011, 02:23:21 PM
.... I need to move a step beyond L21, and DF23 seems like a good way to go. ..
You might want to watch Z255 or Z245 as well.

Thanks for the heads up. So many new SNPs have come down the pike lately, it's hard to know north from south.

My dna testing budget and my wife's patience are both limited, so I have to be choosy. I want to test for DF23 because that one seems glamorous to me, so I will pay for it. I have no idea whether or not I have much of a chance of being positive for it - but it is cool, being the daddy of M222 and all. ;-)

The others I have to adopt a wait and see attitude on. I will only pay for those I think I might have a chance with (unless FTDNA suddenly lumps a whole bunch of them into its Deep Clade and the price becomes right).
Yes, I know what you mean.  About a year ago I bit off the "L21 SNP extended package" for $119 or something like that, which is on top of the old deep clade test I took and the following P312 and L21 singletons.
After taking a big breadth I ordered a couple for singletons early this year and got lucky on one.

I kept telling myself I was at least finding out where I didn't fit and R-L21* kept getting smaller and smaller. We still probably have another round of WTY and my some more human genome projects before R-L21* really starts to squeeze down like P312* is.

Fortunately, the human genome work, volunteer researchers, Thomas Krahn and WTY round 2 all converged just right for me, but I paid my way to get there. I'm just thankful of the other crazies who also paid for lots of testing, WTY's, etc. that are part of what's needed for progress.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Chuck Blandford on September 22, 2011, 03:17:56 PM
To test or not to test.  If one is looking for an old, wide impact SNP then you must test.  Look at L459 and DF21; no way to predict a positive, at least early in the game.  If you are looking for a recent SNP that matches your “variety” then a positive is almost a foregone conclusion, especially in the case of surname and location match.  I think the more interesting historical conclusions are those drawn from older and wider impact SNPs.  So the answer is to test wisely; but the “nature of the beast” is going to lead to at least some negative results.  The mystery is the attraction.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on September 30, 2011, 08:06:12 PM
Still no DF23 test from FTDNA. Sigh . . .


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Chuck Blandford on October 24, 2011, 07:32:15 PM
Quote
I hope they get the test up and running soon!

No test yet on FTDNA


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mark Jost on October 25, 2011, 11:11:58 AM
The DF23 SNP is up and available for order a short time ago. Just placed my order.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on October 25, 2011, 06:31:40 PM
The DF23 SNP is up and available for order a short time ago. Just placed my order.


Thanks, Mark. I'm going to order it, too.

This is one I am hoping for a positive result on, but, since that is the case . . . well, we'll see.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 25, 2011, 07:56:33 PM
The DF23 SNP is up and available for order a short time ago. Just placed my order.


Thanks, Mark. I'm going to order it, too.

This is one I am hoping for a positive result on, but, since that is the case . . . well, we'll see.

Good luck, guys.  Time for a break-through!


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: GoldenHind on October 26, 2011, 02:52:41 PM

I would hazard a guess that the bags aren't even going to be L21.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on October 26, 2011, 06:59:52 PM
The spammer is gone.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on October 26, 2011, 07:33:30 PM
Like I said before, I'm going to order DF23, but it will probably be Monday before I do.

I would dearly love to get a positive result on this one.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mark Jost on October 26, 2011, 10:27:57 PM
Steve,

Can you look and see how many L21 members have ordered DF23 so far? I can see atleast five or more in the L21 WTY as they have come across. Thx


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on October 27, 2011, 10:05:19 AM
Steve,

Can you look and see how many L21 members have ordered DF23 so far? I can see atleast five or more in the L21 WTY as they have come across. Thx

I'll have to check later when I get home. I'll let you know.

I decided I couldn't wait until Monday, so I went ahead and ordered it. That's one more, at least.



Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mark Jost on October 27, 2011, 05:52:16 PM
Good Deal. I have seen  quite a few Orders via the L21 WTY and had to think that the ratio should be bigger the the L21 DNA project. Interestingly when I ordered mine, the next day my Haplogroup reported 'Testing in progress'. A good sign that work started early may mean a nice rush was expected.

Wondering how many M222's are testing?

Thanks.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on October 27, 2011, 07:12:32 PM
I count 15 on our "Pending Lab Results" page, but there are probably at least twice that many. I've seen quite a few new orders for it that did not make it into this Wednesday's lab batch (including my own). I deleted them with a bunch of other emails, however, and didn't count them, so I'm guessing at probably 25 or 30.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mark Jost on October 27, 2011, 09:14:19 PM
Thats a great initial start. Thanks for checking. We'll all just sit and wait as usual.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Chuck Blandford on October 28, 2011, 03:31:48 PM
I ordered the DF23 test, but if I am DF23+ I will be very, very surprised, and pleased.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on October 28, 2011, 06:46:29 PM
I ordered the DF23 test, but if I am DF23+ I will be very, very surprised, and pleased.

That's how I feel about it for myself. I hope I am DF23+.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on October 29, 2011, 07:52:09 PM
Today I wrote a bulk email to the members of the R-L21 Plus Project advising them that DF23 is available and telling them how to order it (for those who don't know).

I made a point of asking the M222+ guys to test for it, as well as those of us who haven't tested positive for anything south of L21 yet.

Of course, the email won't go out until Monday at the earliest.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mark Jost on October 31, 2011, 07:43:04 PM
I just asked John the M222 project administrator for DF23 orders and he reports that:

> I see three orders  so far in the M222 project.
>
> 96185  Hannan
> 118913 Paterson
> 149181 O'Beirne
>
> Hanna is still listed in the project although he's M222-.

So we can follow the results.



Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mark Jost on November 01, 2011, 09:14:57 PM
I am found to be DF23 negative..... :(


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 01, 2011, 10:23:29 PM
I am found to be DF23 negative..... :(
We do have a DF23+ M222- result today though.
f96185 Hannan

It'll be interesting to see where DF23* is found.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: saphorr on November 02, 2011, 08:48:12 AM
I am found to be DF23 negative..... :(
We do have a DF23+ M222- result today though.
f96185 Hannan

It'll be interesting to see where DF23* is found.

Are you sure about that ?  In the R-L21 Project SNP results list (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/default.aspx?section=ysnp (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/default.aspx?section=ysnp)) kit 96185 appears as M222+.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mark Jost on November 02, 2011, 08:59:37 AM
One Two M222+ went DF23+
DF23+
 96185 Michael Hannon, ~1847-1901 R1b1a2a1a1b4b  R-M222 DF23+, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L21+, L226-, L513-, L96-, M153-, M222+, M269+, M37-, M65-, P312+, P314.2-, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-

118913 Paterson R1b1a2a1a1b4b  R-M222 DF23+, M222+


Eleven L21+& M222- went DF23-

Sad results so far.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 02, 2011, 11:27:03 AM
I am found to be DF23 negative..... :(
We do have a DF23+ M222- result today though.
f96185 Hannan

It'll be interesting to see where DF23* is found.

This is disconcerting. Either my eyes and hands are that bad or the lab changed a result. I'm pretty sure f96185 Hannan has been M222- for some time in my files. I just double checked old versions. I had him as "L21+ M37- M222- L96- L144- L159.2- L226- L513-" as of Sep 14th.

I'm pretty sure I actually saw the M222- when I first noticed the DF23+ on the FTDNA screen itself. I think the lab changed their old M222- call to M222+ in the last couple of hours.

His haplotype is a tad off the normal NW Irish so it made sense that he was pre-M222, but I guess now he is not.

Ysearch still has him as R1b1a2a1a1b4 with no "b" on the end.
http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?viewuid=MGPP9


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Chuck Blandford on November 02, 2011, 02:56:00 PM
Quote
DF23+ I will be very, very surprised

DF23-, that was just too much of a long shot.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on November 02, 2011, 07:39:59 PM
I thought I remembered that Hannan was M222-, too, Mike, but his Haplotree page now shows him as M222+.

His was the only DF23+ result today.

I'm waiting for mine.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 02, 2011, 09:12:03 PM
I thought I remembered that Hannan was M222-, too, Mike, but his Haplotree page now shows him as M222+.

His was the only DF23+ result today.

I'm waiting for mine.
Two old bad calls overturned in a day.  Hannan's M222- went to M222+ and Bonham's L21+ to L21-. The good news is the new tests were correct DF23+ and L459-. The bad news is if you are an L21* guy not within a reasonable GD of another L21+ confirmed guy then you need to think about validating your result. I guess the L459 test is one way to (un)validate L21... at least it was for Bonham.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Chuck Blandford on November 02, 2011, 09:28:35 PM
Is Z245 a possible new L21 split?


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 02, 2011, 09:37:17 PM
Is Z245 a possible new L21 split?
Yes, but it could be another L459.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on November 03, 2011, 07:45:57 PM
I thought I remembered that Hannan was M222-, too, Mike, but his Haplotree page now shows him as M222+.

His was the only DF23+ result today.

I'm waiting for mine.
Two old bad calls overturned in a day.  Hannan's M222- went to M222+ and Bonham's L21+ to L21-. The good news is the new tests were correct DF23+ and L459-. The bad news is if you are an L21* guy not within a reasonable GD of another L21+ confirmed guy then you need to think about validating your result. I guess the L459 test is one way to (un)validate L21... at least it was for Bonham.

I told him a long time ago to have his L21+ result checked because of his close match to Rick Arnold, who is L21-. Well, the rest is history.

He reminded me of that when I emailed him about this new development.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 04, 2011, 06:45:47 PM
I thought I add this to the thread for the record from dna-forums on June 22 2011.

Quote from: 'GregRM'
I'm pleased to convey news that the researcher who has been discovering the Y-SNPs in the DF series has confirmed yet another new SNP under L21, named DF23. It looks like DF23 will be upstream of M222 (i.e. some L21* individuals will be DF23+, and all M222+ individuals will be DF23+). An updated phylogeny is shown at: http://www.box.net/s...pac2c5gmrc8z5re . We were able to identify this as a candidate using the combination of 1000 Genomes Project data and the whole-genome data of Jay Flatley (CEO of Illumina), available through Amazon Web Services (http://aws.amazon.com/datasets/3357).

Our investigation of the data showed a couple of candidate SNPs shared by both Jay Flatley (who we found to be M222+) and NA12154 (an anonymous Utahn in the "CEU" population group; L21+, M222-) from the 1000 Genomes Project data.

The researcher developed a set of primers to test for one of these candidates, DF23, and confirmed that it was genuine through conventional Sanger/capillary sequencing of a M222+ sample (turned out DF23+) and a L21+/M222- sample (DF23-). As with the other DF-SNPs, the primer info for DF23 will be sent to Thomas Krahn of FTDNA so he can hopefully offer this for sale within a few weeks.

Here are the details for DF23:

Build 37 Build 36 Ancestral Derived
17774409 16283803 G         A


Some more good news:
Some limited STR data for NA12154 is available from a paper by He et al. (http://www.plosone.o...al.pone.0004684). Converted to FTDNA conventions (cf. http://dna-forums.or...apmap-samples/; thanks JaG!), I believe the STR data should be as follows:

Sample ID    Population    DYS19    DYS389I    DYS389II DYS390    DYS391    DYS392    DYS393    DYS437    DYS438    DYS439    DYS448    DYS456    DYS458    DYS635    Y_GATA_H4   DYS385
NA12154            CEU            14    13    29     24    13    14    14    15    12    11    19    17    17    23    11        11,14

I'll leave it to the L21 experts to analyze this and draw conclusions.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: eochaidh on November 06, 2011, 10:41:59 PM
I got a DF23+ (positive) result tonight! I'm DF23+ and M222-  I've always thought I was some sort of pre-M222+

How many of us are there? I so glad to finally belong to a smaller subclade! I haven't even belonged to an L21 cluster before this!

Thanks, Miles Kehoe
FTDNA #97610
Ysearch  fsh3f


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mark Jost on November 07, 2011, 12:28:22 AM
Congrats Miles! This is good news.

MJost


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Heber on November 07, 2011, 05:53:48 AM
Miles,

If you are not a decendent of Niall Noigiallacht you are perhaps a decendent of Eochaid Mugmedon (what a coincidence) or even  Conn Cetchathach his ancestor.
:).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eochaid_Mugmedon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conn_of_the_Hundred_Battles


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: eochaidh on November 07, 2011, 09:14:58 AM
Miles,

If you are not a decendent of Niall Noigiallacht you are perhaps a decendent of Eochaid Mugmedon (what a coincidence) or even  Conn Cetchathach his ancestor.
:).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eochaid_Mugmedon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conn_of_the_Hundred_Battles

Since my last name is MacEochaidh/Eochadha and my Y results have always been from the north of Ireland and Scotland, I'm keen on any "Eochaidh" name from Ulster.

Even though my Dad was from Co. Wexford, it seems obvious that my line isn't a "Leinster" line. my closest match, Dougherty 64/67, has an Ulster surname that is found both M222+ and M222-  Many men from the north came to fight outside of The Pale.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 07, 2011, 05:22:05 PM
I got a DF23+ (positive) result tonight! I'm DF23+ and M222-  I've always thought I was some sort of pre-M222+

How many of us are there? I so glad to finally belong to a smaller subclade! I haven't even belonged to an L21 cluster before this!

Thanks, Miles Kehoe
FTDNA #97610
Ysearch  fsh3f
I posted this response to Miles on another forum but I thought Richard and Alan might be interested:

This is interesting. You do have a lot of differences from the R-M222 modal. Here are the M222 signature STRs, listed in slowest to fastest except for the very, very fastest.

392=14 (Miles/L21=13)
448=19 (Miles/L21=18)
413a=21 (Miles=22 L21=23)
385=11,13 (Miles/L21=11,14)
390=25 (Miles=25, L21=24)
481=25 (Miles=24, L21=22)
464=15,16,16,17 (Miles/L21=15,15,17,17)

To me the above just demonstrates all the more that you were a very early branch off the pre-M222 lineage before M222 occurred.

In most cases, you line up more with the L21 modal. At 413a and 481 you are "in between." You are on target with M222 at 390. Even though 481 is a fast mutator, it seems to be very important to M222 identification. 481=25 is +3 of L21's modal while you are +2. I may be smoking something, but my hypothesis is then that 413a, 390 and 481 were the first STRs to mutate in the DF23 lineage. Essentially that means probably means either of two things in your searches:
1) Ignore GD's to the M222 modal. For the most part they will be misleading you as far as 392, 448, 385 and 464. Focus on 413a, 390 and 481 instead.
OR
2) DF23 is old enough that any R-L21* could have it and everyone needs to be checked.

The latter may be the case because 481 is fast and 413a isn't all that slow. I have your GD at 19 over 67 from the M222 modal and 14 to the L21 modal.

If I was to predict an ancestral haplotype for R-DF23, it'd only have a GD of 8/9 @67 to the L21 Modal whereas the M222 modal has a GD of about 16 to the L21 modal. To put very rough timeframes on that, if L21 is 4000* ybp, DF23 is about 3000 ybp and M222 is about 2000 ybp. All of those are very rough approximations.

* I use 4000 because several leading hobbyist folks like Tim Janzen, Anatole Klyosov, Marko Heinila and Ken Nordtvedt are getting that kind of time range.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: alan trowel hands. on November 07, 2011, 06:33:26 PM
I got a DF23+ (positive) result tonight! I'm DF23+ and M222-  I've always thought I was some sort of pre-M222+

How many of us are there? I so glad to finally belong to a smaller subclade! I haven't even belonged to an L21 cluster before this!

Thanks, Miles Kehoe
FTDNA #97610
Ysearch  fsh3f

Congrats Miles.  There was always a feeling that you were somewhere on the same branch as M222 and this proves it. 


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: alan trowel hands. on November 07, 2011, 06:42:27 PM
I got a DF23+ (positive) result tonight! I'm DF23+ and M222-  I've always thought I was some sort of pre-M222+

How many of us are there? I so glad to finally belong to a smaller subclade! I haven't even belonged to an L21 cluster before this!

Thanks, Miles Kehoe
FTDNA #97610
Ysearch  fsh3f
I posted this response to Miles on another forum but I thought Richard and Alan might be interested:

This is interesting. You do have a lot of differences from the R-M222 modal. Here are the M222 signature STRs, listed in slowest to fastest except for the very, very fastest.

392=14 (Miles/L21=13)
448=19 (Miles/L21=18)
413a=21 (Miles=22 L21=23)
385=11,13 (Miles/L21=11,14)
390=25 (Miles=25, L21=24)
481=25 (Miles=24, L21=22)
464=15,16,16,17 (Miles/L21=15,15,17,17)

To me the above just demonstrates all the more that you were a very early branch off the pre-M222 lineage before M222 occurred.

In most cases, you line up more with the L21 modal. At 413a and 481 you are "in between." You are on target with M222 at 390. Even though 481 is a fast mutator, it seems to be very important to M222 identification. 481=25 is +3 of L21's modal while you are +2. I may be smoking something, but my hypothesis is then that 413a, 390 and 481 were the first STRs to mutate in the DF23 lineage. Essentially that means probably means either of two things in your searches:
1) Ignore GD's to the M222 modal. For the most part they will be misleading you as far as 392, 448, 385 and 464. Focus on 413a, 390 and 481 instead.
OR
2) DF23 is old enough that any R-L21* could have it and everyone needs to be checked.

The latter may be the case because 481 is fast and 413a isn't all that slow. I have your GD at 19 over 67 from the M222 modal and 14 to the L21 modal.

If I was to predict an ancestral haplotype for R-DF23, it'd only have a GD of 8/9 @67 to the L21 Modal whereas the M222 modal has a GD of about 16 to the L21 modal. To put very rough timeframes on that, if L21 is 4000* ybp, DF23 is about 3000 ybp and M222 is about 2000 ybp. All of those are very rough approximations.

* I use 4000 because several leading hobbyist folks like Tim Janzen, Anatole Klyosov, Marko Heinila and Ken Nordtvedt are getting that kind of time range.

That makes perfect sense to me.  One thing though. Am I right in understanding that a number of new L21 subclades and clusters are known to be L23 negative and if you fit those then testing would be pointless?  Can anyone briefly list which clusters and clades and new SNPs are known to be L23 negative?


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: eochaidh on November 07, 2011, 07:04:36 PM
I got a DF23+ (positive) result tonight! I'm DF23+ and M222-  I've always thought I was some sort of pre-M222+

How many of us are there? I so glad to finally belong to a smaller subclade! I haven't even belonged to an L21 cluster before this!

Thanks, Miles Kehoe
FTDNA #97610
Ysearch  fsh3f

Congrats Miles.  There was always a feeling that you were somewhere on the same branch as M222 and this proves it. 
Thanks!


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on November 07, 2011, 07:33:14 PM
Miles,

Congratulations! You are the first one in the new R-DF23 (M222-) category at the R-L21 Plus Project.

I hope I'll be joining you soon, but who knows?


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: eochaidh on November 07, 2011, 07:51:40 PM
I hope you join me soon as well. I love being part of a new subclade, but if I end up alone, yikes! Plus, I know you would really like to be DF23+

Good luck,  Miles


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on November 07, 2011, 07:58:20 PM
I hope you join me soon as well. I love being part of a new subclade, but if I end up alone, yikes! Plus, I know you would really like to be DF23+

Good luck,  Miles

Well, if I do get it, I'll be broadening out the DF23 variance, since my haplotype isn't anything like the typical M222 haplotype. My haplotype looks more like a U106 haplotype, with the exception of 492=13 (I have 12 there).

I'm just hoping against hope that I get a DF23+ result.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 09, 2011, 09:43:52 AM
I hope you join me soon as well. I love being part of a new subclade, but if I end up alone, yikes! Plus, I know you would really like to be DF23+

Good luck,  Miles

Well, if I do get it, I'll be broadening out the DF23 variance, since my haplotype isn't anything like the typical M222 haplotype. My haplotype looks more like a U106 haplotype, with the exception of 492=13 (I have 12 there).

I'm just hoping against hope that I get a DF23+ result.
Since Miles' haplotype is closer to the L21 modal than to the M222 modal we may see a few surprises with DF23.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: eochaidh on November 09, 2011, 07:52:16 PM
When I go to the Haplotype Data R-L21 all and run my little tests, here's what I get.

My favorite test is:
DYS390=25
DYS449=30
DYS481=24
Results= 15 M222+ , 8 M222- (including me DF23+)

The next simple test is:
DYS390=25
DYS481=24
Results= 25 M222+, 8 L513+, 59 M222- (including me DF23+)

Intersting to note that there are no other SNPs in the results. M222+, L513+, DF23+ and L21*, that's it. I know that simply running two or three marker values can't tell us much, but it is odd how these two or three marker values can exclude all other sunbclades. Just running two eliminates all but M222+, L513+ and me DF23+. Might be something there.

I've been doing these test for a long while.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: eochaidh on November 10, 2011, 07:46:26 PM
Two more DF23+, M222- results.
Anglin 63595
Caldwell 137235

They are more similar to each other than to me. And more similar to M222+

It seems that DYS413a and DYS481 are the keys markers. I'd also say DYS449 might play a part.

Miles Kehoe (The other DF23+, M222-)


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on November 10, 2011, 09:48:24 PM
Yep, and I got a big goose egg. :(

Ah, well. The Lord must be reserving the subclade of the X-Men or the Justice League for me, whatever it is. ;-)

L21 is about as close to M222 as I get.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: eochaidh on November 10, 2011, 10:42:59 PM
Sorry to hear, Rich... Maybe that new match you got recently will lead to many good things.

All I can say is I've never belonged to any cluster or small subclade until now, and it came out of nowhere... of course by next year it may be huge and meaningless  :)


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on November 10, 2011, 11:13:50 PM
Sorry to hear, Rich... Maybe that new match you got recently will lead to many good things.

All I can say is I've never belonged to any cluster or small subclade until now, and it came out of nowhere... of course by next year it may be huge and meaningless  :)

I think you will find DF23 characterizes a particularly barbarous band of Celtic headhunters, like the "Seal People" in the film The Eagle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx4bnwvGmKM). ;-)


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: eochaidh on November 11, 2011, 12:21:27 AM


I think you will find DF23 characterizes a particularly barbarous band of Celtic headhunters, like the "Seal People" in the film The Eagle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx4bnwvGmKM). ;-)
[/quote]

I can only hope  :)


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on November 16, 2011, 08:35:23 PM
The R-DF23 (M222-) category has grown quite a bit this evening.

Thus far, it's all British Isles and British Isles surname stuff.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: eochaidh on November 16, 2011, 09:23:15 PM
The R-DF23 (M222-) category has grown quite a bit this evening.

Thus far, it's all British Isles and British Isles surname stuff.
I see that, it looks like DF23+, M222- is up to 8 members. All of the new guys have DYS481=24 or greater.

I'm interested in the Martin from Co. Antrim b. 1824. I have a maternal great, great grandmother, Sarah Martin from Co. Antrim. The surname Martin is pretty popular there, but it's interesting to think I might have another DF23+ line, though.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: OConnor on November 17, 2011, 05:14:56 AM
My furthest known Maternal ancestor was Jessie Martin, Isle of Skye, Scotland.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rayjenkins on November 17, 2011, 11:08:36 PM
The parents of Charles James Moore Martin b1824 County Antrim were James Martin and Mary Moore.
James Martin was shown to be a Captain in the infantry on 2  Cheshire UK marriage certs dated 1849 and 1852. at this point I have no other info


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 18, 2011, 12:36:39 AM
The R-DF23 (M222-) category has grown quite a bit this evening.

Thus far, it's all British Isles and British Isles surname stuff.
I see that, it looks like DF23+, M222- is up to 8 members. All of the new guys have DYS481=24 or greater. ...

As of now there is only one common off-modal (of L21) for DF23* that is also shared with M222.  It is being on the high side of 481, usually 24 or higher.

Vince V called this over a year ago when I tried to do a "pre-M222" search. He told me at the time that 481 was the one marker that made M222 unique.  There are other signature markers but the high 481 value is the one thing that is really consistent in M222.

BTW, there is a Stephens in DF23*.   I just noticed I had him labeled as variety "14N-B-WSW" so he was supposed to be a "pre-M222" guy all along.  I labeled M222 as "14NW".

What's important about "14N-B-WSW" is that it is really short for something Ed Martin found a couple of years ago - what he calls the Wales South West England Modal (WESM.)
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ed_Martin_WalesSWEng/default.aspx

This looks like a firm brother cluster for M222.   Does a La Tena theory for M222 hold up with this?  WESM/WSW is Wales/SW England oriented.  I guess one of the Welsh royal lines were "men from the north". I understand that meant from north of Britain.  
I think odds of M222 originating in Britain vs Ireland are increasing (although Ireland is still a if not the leading candidate.)   I don't see how the German/La Tene thing will work unless we find DF23* among the L21* folks there.




Title: Re: DF23
Post by: alan trowel hands. on November 18, 2011, 03:04:14 PM
The R-DF23 (M222-) category has grown quite a bit this evening.

Thus far, it's all British Isles and British Isles surname stuff.
I see that, it looks like DF23+, M222- is up to 8 members. All of the new guys have DYS481=24 or greater. ...

As of now there is only common off-modal (of L21) for DF23* that is also shared with M222.  It is being on the high side of 481, usually 24 or higher.

Vince V called this over a year ago when I tried to do a "pre-M222" search. He told me at the time that 481 was the one marker that made M222 unique.  There are other signature markers but the high 481 value is the one thing that is really consistent in M222.

BTW, there is a Stephens in DF23*.   I just noticed I had him labeled as variety "14N-B-WSW" so he was supposed to be a "pre-M222" guy all along.  I labeled M222 as "14NW".

What's important about "14N-B-WSW" is that it is really short for something Ed Martin found a couple of years ago - what he calls the Wales South West England Modal (WESM.)
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ed_Martin_WalesSWEng/default.aspx

This looks like a firm brother cluster for M222.   Does a La Tena theory for M222 hold up with this?  WESM/WSW is Wales/SW England oriented.  I guess one of the Welsh royal lines were "men from the north". I understand that meant from north of Britain.  
I think odds of M222 originating in Britain vs Ireland are increasing (although Ireland is still a if not the leading candidate.)   I don't see how the German/La Tene thing will work unless we find DF23* among the L21* folks there.




One thing that springs to mind is Devon=Dumonia=Fir Domnain.  I have pointed out before that there were Fir Domnain in Mayo who were apparently seen as a military crack tribe of Connaught in the Ulster Cycle (Ferdia was one of them).  I had previous wondered if they related to the Damnoni of SW Scotland.  Maybe there was a link between all three.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on November 18, 2011, 08:03:37 PM
Wales and SW England were also heavily settled by Irish during the post-Roman period. Some of them settled there during the Roman period itself and were commissioned by the Romans to keep their fellow Irish out.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: eochaidh on November 19, 2011, 07:30:57 PM
Please don't respond to spammers. You just create a permanent post for their mischief, even after I have deleted the original. I don't normally delete real users' posts unless they're duplicates or they asked to have them deleted.



Sorry, I didn't realize it was a problem. I deleted my posts. Just fooling around...


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 20, 2011, 12:59:39 AM
Wales and SW England were also heavily settled by Irish during the post-Roman period. Some of them settled there during the Roman period itself and were commissioned by the Romans to keep their fellow Irish out.
Has anyone done any analysis of the impact of migrations from western Britain to Ireland versus the other way around?

I'd guess the larger impact would be from Britain to Ireland but I don't know.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on November 20, 2011, 08:42:07 AM
Wales and SW England were also heavily settled by Irish during the post-Roman period. Some of them settled there during the Roman period itself and were commissioned by the Romans to keep their fellow Irish out.
Has anyone done any analysis of the impact of migrations from western Britain to Ireland versus the other way around?

I'd guess the larger impact would be from Britain to Ireland but I don't know.

It depends on the time period, I think. The Irish Sea was the Celtic Mediterranean, so to speak, Mare Nostrum; there was always a lot of movement back and forth.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on November 29, 2011, 09:11:44 PM
Interesting news: DF23xM222 has claimed its first continental that I know of. He is Provost, kit N92711, and his ancestor came from Normandy. He has the telltale 481=24.

Provost has a fair number of close British Isles matches at 37 markers, but no 67-marker matches at all per FTDNA.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: eochaidh on November 29, 2011, 11:32:56 PM
Interesting news: DF23xM222 has claimed its first continental that I know of. He is Provost, kit N92711, and his ancestor came from Normandy. He has the telltale 481=24.

Provost has a fair number of close British Isles matches at 37 markers, but no 67-marker matches at all per FTDNA.

Is (Le) Provost French-Canadian or other New World French?


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 30, 2011, 05:16:35 PM
Interesting news: DF23xM222 has claimed its first continental that I know of. He is Provost, kit N92711, and his ancestor came from Normandy. He has the telltale 481=24.

Provost has a fair number of close British Isles matches at 37 markers, but no 67-marker matches at all per FTDNA.

Is (Le) Provost French-Canadian or other New World French?
Kirsten S just answered this on the Yahoo Group.  She says he is "Old World" not a French-Canadian or the like.
I checked his GD's with the other DF23* people that have 67 markers. Le Prevost's GDs range from 16 to 26 to the others.
A GD of 26 is quite ways so DF23 must have happened quite a bit before M222.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: eochaidh on November 30, 2011, 05:42:09 PM
I think your original "rough" age estimate was: L21 4,000 ybp, DF23 3,000 ybp, and M222 2,000 ybp.

What really seems notable is how different the current DF23 haplotypes are from each other. Very strange. And then our descendant, M222 is so completely different from us and L21. What is going on?!  :)


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 30, 2011, 06:45:04 PM
I think your original "rough" age estimate was: L21 4,000 ybp, DF23 3,000 ybp, and M222 2,000 ybp.

What really seems notable is how different the current DF23 haplotypes are from each other. Very strange. And then our descendant, M222 is so completely different from us and L21. What is going on?!  :)
I think DF23 could actually be older than that, but of course can't be older than L21.  I think the M222 branch in the of DF23 family tree got lucky somewhere along the line about AD 1 to AD 500.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: OConnor on December 01, 2011, 01:54:12 AM
but where did it get lucky?


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 01, 2011, 10:03:52 PM
but where did it get lucky?
M222 was very prolific in fairly recent times in the north of Ireland and in Scotland.  He might have been just another subclade over in some place like England.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on December 03, 2011, 07:48:31 PM
M222 got lucky in Anatolia?


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on December 03, 2011, 09:18:45 PM
M222 got lucky in Anatolia?

I mean a DF23 got lucky and started the M222 line in Anatolia.

Please explain. Honestly, I don't mean to be argumentative or offensive, but I don't know of even any R-L21 in Anatolia, let alone R-DF23 or R-M222.

It seems to me L21 did not emerge from its P312 base until after that base first arrived in France or perhaps western Germany, or maybe even northern Spain. The jury is out on whether DF23 was born in the British Isles or the Continent.

I could see Anatolia as the Urheimat of M269 or maybe L23, but not DF23 or M222.



Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike23 on December 06, 2011, 11:34:18 AM
Here is what I am suggesting regarding the M222's in the Isles:

Around 400-500 BC, some Volcae Tectasages plus the Tolistobogii and Trocmi tribes left what may have been a DF23 hotspot in SW France around Toulouse and wound up around 280 BC in Anatolia. They became known as the Galatians and became M222 during their residence in Anatolia.

The Galatians provided troops to the Ptolemies and the Romans. One Legion, known to be Galatian, was the 22nd Deiotarian Legion.

I believe that this Legion was posted to Britain, perhaps in the 3rd Century and deserted the Wall in 367 AD in what was known as the Great Conspiracy. The Galatians then fled to NW Ireland.
 
I'll be glad to hear your thoughts.

Best regards,

Mike Hannan


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Maliclavelli on December 06, 2011, 12:18:36 PM
Here is what I am suggesting regarding the M222's in the Isles:

Around 400-500 BC, some Volcae Tectasages plus the Tolistobogii and Trocmi tribes left what may have been a DF23 hotspot in SW France around Toulouse and wound up around 280 BC in Anatolia. They became known as the Galatians and became M222 during their residence in Anatolia.

The Galatians provided troops to the Ptolemies and the Romans. One Legion, known to be Galatian, was the 22nd Deiotarian Legion.

I believe that this Legion was posted to Britain, perhaps in the 3rd Century and deserted the Wall in 367 AD in what was known as the Great Conspiracy. The Galatians then fled to NW Ireland.
 
I'll be glad to hear your thoughts.

Best regards,

Mike Hannan


There are many kinds of foolishness and everyone is free to choose its own.
One kind was that of David Faux (a good person otherwise) when thought that R-U152 was “Celt”, but there isn’t no R-U152 in Turkey where Galatians settled and lived, but its highest percentage is in North Italy where Galatians never were and the most ancient haplotypes are in Tuscany, where neither “Celts” never were.
Yours is also worst: Galatians would have been not R-U152 but R-M222, they would have fought in the Roman troops, settled in the British Isles and would have given life to a large part of the British/Irish men etc. etc.
But why there isn’t any R-M222 in Turkey? And less in Italy?


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: OConnor on December 06, 2011, 09:32:40 PM
Here is what I am suggesting regarding the M222's in the Isles:

Around 400-500 BC, some Volcae Tectasages plus the Tolistobogii and Trocmi tribes left what may have been a DF23 hotspot in SW France around Toulouse and wound up around 280 BC in Anatolia. They became known as the Galatians and became M222 during their residence in Anatolia.

The Galatians provided troops to the Ptolemies and the Romans. One Legion, known to be Galatian, was the 22nd Deiotarian Legion.

I believe that this Legion was posted to Britain, perhaps in the 3rd Century and deserted the Wall in 367 AD in what was known as the Great Conspiracy. The Galatians then fled to NW Ireland.
 
I'll be glad to hear your thoughts.

Best regards,
Mike Hannan

I have never known of Galacia. It may explain some genetic connections to some people. But I would expect to see some M222+ there in order to consider it a source .


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: OConnor on December 06, 2011, 11:45:10 PM
I'm a little hesitant to order DF23.
I thought I'd wait till some results started coming in
and then see how i compare with them.

I'm still a little lost after the L159 lab error. I wasn't really paying much attention to the newer snp's as they came about.

Is there a DF23 Project?..or will they join the M222 Project?









Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike23 on December 07, 2011, 08:32:36 AM
Look in the L21 Plus Project and you will find a section devoted to DF23 with 9 members on Page3.

Regards,

Mike Hannan


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on December 07, 2011, 09:09:58 PM
Here is what I am suggesting regarding the M222's in the Isles:

Around 400-500 BC, some Volcae Tectasages plus the Tolistobogii and Trocmi tribes left what may have been a DF23 hotspot in SW France around Toulouse and wound up around 280 BC in Anatolia. They became known as the Galatians and became M222 during their residence in Anatolia.

The Galatians provided troops to the Ptolemies and the Romans. One Legion, known to be Galatian, was the 22nd Deiotarian Legion.

I believe that this Legion was posted to Britain, perhaps in the 3rd Century and deserted the Wall in 367 AD in what was known as the Great Conspiracy. The Galatians then fled to NW Ireland.
 
I'll be glad to hear your thoughts.

Best regards,

Mike Hannan


Mike,

Northern France and the British Isles are positively loaded with L21. It is much more likely that DF23 either arose on the Continent not far from the Isles or somewhere in the Isles themselves. Then M222 arose from the DF23+ population in the British Isles somewhere.

No need to look to the faraway Galatians.



Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike23 on December 07, 2011, 09:29:39 PM
Hello rms2,

My idea is that the DF 23's come from a hot spot in SW France around Toulouse. They did not leave SW France when the other DF 23 tribes that became known as the Galatians did.  Further I think that some of the DF 23's in SW France migrated up the coast and signed on with the Normans as soldiers or support and entered England, Wales and Ireland at that time.

On the L21''s I have no strong feelings on where they first appeared but I'd bet it was on the Mediterranean coast of France if you forced me to pick a place.

Regards,

Mike Hannan



Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on December 08, 2011, 09:42:50 PM
Interesting theory. Do you have any real evidence to support it?


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 19, 2011, 12:20:37 PM
... BTW, there is a Stephens in DF23*.   I just noticed I had him labeled as variety "14N-B-WSW" so he was supposed to be a "pre-M222" guy all along.  I labeled M222 as "14NW".

What's important about "14N-B-WSW" is that it is really short for something Ed Martin found a couple of years ago - what he calls the Wales South West England Modal (WESM.)
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ed_Martin_WalesSWEng/default.aspx

This looks like a firm brother cluster for M222....
Three people in the Wales South West England project now are DF23+ M222-. I renamed it 23-15-WSW.
The complete list of DF23+ M222- (or at least probably M222-) that I'm aware of are below.

f19920____ Stephens_________________ R-L21/DF23*__________________ 23-15-WSW_______ X3TH6___ Scotland
f156257___ Stephens_________________ R-L21/DF23___________________ 23-15-WSW_______ B25VE___ zzzUnkOrigin
f147036___ Vaughan__________________ R-L21/DF23___________________ 23-15-WSW_______ ___ Wales
f64716____ Vaughan__________________ R-L21/DF23*__________________ 23-15-WSW_______ CC95M___ zzzUnkOrigin
f41311____ Eaton____________________ R-L21/DF23*__________________ 23-1220_________ NW7PU___ England, South East, Kent
f207798___ Martin___________________ R-L21/DF23*__________________ 23-1421_________ PS5JD___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim
f63595____ Anglin___________________ R-L21/DF23*__________________ 23-2224_________ E5X7X___ Ireland, Munster, Co. Cork
f137235___ Caldwell_________________ R-L21/DF23*__________________ 23-2224_________ GDYM6___ Ireland
f119874___ Stanton?_________________ R-L21/DF23*__________________ 23-2224_________ PFGV7___ zzzUnkOrigin
fN1871____ Warren___________________ R-L21/DF23*__________________ 23-unassigned___ ZD5SS___ UK
f97610____ Kehoe____________________ R-L21/DF23*__________________ 23-unassigned___ FSH3F___ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Wexford
fN92711___ Le Provost_______________ R-L21/DF23*__________________ 23-unassigned___ ___ France, Basse-Normandie, Avranches


I wouldn't make too much of a variance calculation on just 11 haplotypes, but if it can be believed, DF23* is showing a higher linear marker variance than DF21, making DF23 the oldest of L21's subclades.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: eochaidh on December 19, 2011, 01:41:41 PM
Cool.... Is there a Welsh name "Vaughan"? I know there is an Irish name Vaughan.

EDIT: I see that there is a Welsh name Vaughan and an Irish name Vaughan.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Jdean on December 19, 2011, 08:22:45 PM
Cool.... Is there a Welsh name "Vaughan"? I know there is an Irish name Vaughan.

EDIT: I see that there is a Welsh name Vaughan and an Irish name Vaughan.


Yep Vaughan is a name with a lot of Welsh history though it's not a 'typical' Welsh sounding name and I don't know it's etymology but I've often wondered if Vaux isn't connected to it. Probably not judging by the spread of the latter in the 1881 census :)


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: eochaidh on December 19, 2011, 08:31:32 PM
Cool.... Is there a Welsh name "Vaughan"? I know there is an Irish name Vaughan.

EDIT: I see that there is a Welsh name Vaughan and an Irish name Vaughan.


Yep Vaughan is a name with a lot of Welsh history though it's not a 'typical' Welsh sounding name and I don't know it's etymology but I've often wondered if Vaux isn't connected to it. Probably not judging by the spread of the latter in the 1881 census :)

I read that it's from the Welsh word for "small" or "little", fychan. In Irish, it's a form of MacMahon.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Jdean on December 19, 2011, 09:13:48 PM

I read that it's from the Welsh word for "small" or "little", fychan. In Irish, it's a form of MacMahon.

It would be rather nice for me to understand just a little Welsh (well I do know a few words, but it's nothing to take to a party)

According to Google the translation of 'fychan' is 'small' and the pronunciation would be about right but I wonder why they would have used an English spelling ?

I'm quite amused by this etymology though, it would appear that my family had a fascination with diminutive surnames, Child, Smallman and now Vaughan !!

I've also come across 14th C. documents concerning somebody bearing my name associated with a John Little in certain misdemeanours in Yorkshire as well :)


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: rms2 on February 09, 2012, 07:54:28 PM
Now there are three men of French origin who have been found to be DF23+ (M222-): one Norman, one from Poitou, and one from Languedoc.

So, did DF23 originate on the Continent?


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike23 on February 09, 2012, 08:50:58 PM
Perhaps SW France for DF23's origins. There is one other Frenchman who lives in Northern Italy named Bonnet whose ancestors likely came from Toulouse.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 17, 2012, 07:11:04 PM
Having looked at the new FTDNA project maps and being very aware that France is unbelievably undertested, the three DF23* people in France already (and not elsewhere on the mainland continent) seems a strong pattern that cant be chance.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike Walsh on February 20, 2012, 11:15:27 AM
Of the French L21+ people I'm aware of, these are the ones with 481>=23.

f176268   Gontaut __ R-L21/L96   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees
fE5171   Rotrou ___ R-L21   EW Fra North & Central
f73834   Landon ___ R-L21   EW Fra z unk
f127515   Dupuis____ R-L21   EW Fra North Atlantic
f160587   Bodine____ R-L21   EW Fra North Atlantic
f182980   Georgel___ R-L21   EW Fra Northeast
fN82517   Pontbriant R-L21   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees

f18917   Brun _____ R-L21/DF23*   EW Fra North Atlantic
f57411   Fournier__ R-L21/DF23/M222   EW Fra North Atlantic
f78065   Lamphier__ R-L21/DF23*   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees
fN92711   LeProvost_ R-L21/DF23*   EW Fra North & Central

Of course, the bottom set is already proven DF23+ while the top seven are have not been tested. These would be the prime candidates, from my perspective.
We have a volunteer, Dubhthach, who'll pay for a test for the L96 guy, if needed.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike23 on February 29, 2012, 02:31:29 PM
Having looked at the new FTDNA project maps and being very aware that France is unbelievably undertested, the three DF23* people in France already (and not elsewhere on the mainland continent) seems a strong pattern that cant be chance.

Add in 7 of the remaining 8 DF23's in the L21 Plus DNA project who appear to have Norman-French surnames and you can conclude that DF23 originated on the Continent and did not arrive in Britain and Ireland until the 11th to 13th Centuries AD. This leaves you with the unusual situation where the ancestral clade ( DF23 ) arrived in the Isles some 700 or more years AFTER the descendant clade ( M222 ).

Mike Hannan


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 29, 2012, 02:40:57 PM
Having looked at the new FTDNA project maps and being very aware that France is unbelievably undertested, the three DF23* people in France already (and not elsewhere on the mainland continent) seems a strong pattern that cant be chance.

Add in 7 of the remaining 8 DF23's in the L21 Plus DNA project who appear to have Norman-French surnames and you can conclude that DF23 originated on the Continent and did not arrive in Britain and Ireland until the 11th to 13th Centuries AD. This leaves you with the unusual situation where the ancestral clade ( DF23 ) arrived in the Isles some 700 or more years AFTER the descendant clade ( M222 ).

Mike Hannan

Personally I think the issue is one of history repeating itself due to basic geography and sea routes.  I mean that both the prehistoric settlers of the Atlantic areas of the isles and, much later, the non-Norse element (which was probably the vast majority) of the Normans essentially came from the same area and, although separated by a long period and changes is languages and cultures, they came predominantly from the same stock of Atlantic France (perhaps mostly from the Seine to the Garrone).  I dont know if that is correct but it certainly is not out of step with archaeology.   DF23 in this model may have arrived several times in the isles.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: OConnor on March 15, 2012, 07:41:22 PM
Maybe it came initially from Scandinavia?

Is there a lot riding against this idea?


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Mike23 on March 28, 2012, 08:58:04 PM
DF23 Surname Analysis

Of the 13 people reported in the L21 Plus Project, the following are the surname results as of 3-28-2012:

3 French
8 Norman French
1 English
1 Irish

Regards,

Mike Hannan


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: eochaidh on March 28, 2012, 10:55:59 PM
DF23 Surname Analysis

Of the 13 people reported in the L21 Plus Project, the following are the surname results as of 3-28-2012:

3 French
8 Norman French
1 English
1 Irish

Regards,

Mike Hannan

What?! How familiar are you with Irish names?

Kehoe, Byrne, O'Beirne, Anglin and Caldwell are all native names. Plus, a Kelly was added today. Martin can be Norman and can be native Irish.

Anglin (O hAngluinn) and Caldwell (Mac Cathmhaoil/Mac Conluain) have English sounding translations, but they're Irish names.

And, if you're another eedjit who thinks Kehoe (Mac Eochadha/MacEochaidh/Mac Eoghu) is Hawaiian, I'll have to ask you to step outside! Well, me and the many hundreds of Kehoes in Wexford, Carlow and Wicklow... including my family in Kilrush Parish, Co. Wexford! Insane!

In ainm an diabhal, Maolmordha Mac Eochadha (Miles Kehoe DF23+, M222-)


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Jean M on March 29, 2012, 06:42:15 AM
The names:

French:
Vincent Brun, b. abt. 1616, Poitou, France
Thomas Lamphier, 1570 Lanquedoc, France
Le Provost (Avranches Manche ca1580-1640)

Norman French:
William H Warren; - de Warenne

British:
Jonas Eaton, 1618-1674; - from one of the English places called Eaton or Eton
William Johnson; - son of John
Ephraim Stephens bc 1710 Scotland; - son of Stephen

Irish:
James Anglin, b.c. 1720 (Ireland)
Mogue Kehoe b.1799 Kiltilly, Co. Wexford, Ireland;
Martin Kelly

Anglo or Gaelic:
Robert Caldwell;
Charles James Moore Martin 1824 County Antrim;

Fentress Co. Tn;  - a  place, not a person. 


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: eochaidh on March 29, 2012, 11:10:50 AM
The names:

French:
Vincent Brun, b. abt. 1616, Poitou, France
Thomas Lamphier, 1570 Lanquedoc, France
Le Provost (Avranches Manche ca1580-1640)

Norman French:
William H Warren; - de Warenne

British:
Jonas Eaton, 1618-1674; - from one of the English places called Eaton or Eton
William Johnson; - son of John
Ephraim Stephens bc 1710 Scotland; - son of Stephen

Irish:
James Anglin, b.c. 1720 (Ireland)
Mogue Kehoe b.1799 Kiltilly, Co. Wexford, Ireland;
Martin Kelly

Anglo or Gaelic:
Robert Caldwell;
Charles James Moore Martin 1824 County Antrim;

Fentress Co. Tn;  - a  place, not a person. 

Thank you. Sanity has returned. :)


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 30, 2012, 01:10:07 PM
The names:

French:
Vincent Brun, b. abt. 1616, Poitou, France
Thomas Lamphier, 1570 Lanquedoc, France
Le Provost (Avranches Manche ca1580-1640)

Norman French:
William H Warren; - de Warenne

British:
Jonas Eaton, 1618-1674; - from one of the English places called Eaton or Eton
William Johnson; - son of John
Ephraim Stephens bc 1710 Scotland; - son of Stephen

Irish:
James Anglin, b.c. 1720 (Ireland)
Mogue Kehoe b.1799 Kiltilly, Co. Wexford, Ireland;
Martin Kelly

Anglo or Gaelic:
Robert Caldwell;
Charles James Moore Martin 1824 County Antrim;

Fentress Co. Tn;  - a  place, not a person. 

I think its very significant that the hopelessly undertested French as so well represented in that group.   


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: eochaidh on April 03, 2012, 11:03:44 AM
Okay, not to take away from the French origin of DF23+, M222-, but I have noticed something to do with a few of the Irish names. In the old genealogies of Ireland (which are laughable and incorrect...just protecting myself) the name Kehoe/Keogh is connected with O'Byrne in Leinster and O'Kelly in Ui Maine. We have all three names among the current DF23, M222-. It is sometimes written that the Ui Maine are part of the Ulster tribe of Airghialla. So far I, as a Kehoe, don't match with any other Kehoe/Keogh of Leinster and no other Leinster families. The O'Beirne listed is a spelling more commonly found among Ui Maine families.

Perhaps, there is a connection with DF23+, M222- and Ulster (after they came from France!!!!). And suppose Brun is a French rendering of O' Byrne. The French rendering of Irish names is fairly common in Quebec and there were Irish who migrated to France.

I will now duck and cover,  Miles Kehoe DF23+, M222-


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Jean M on April 03, 2012, 01:46:22 PM
Kehoe/Keogh in Ui Maine is interesting Miles, though I would wait awhile to see what else turns up.

I'm all for Irish genealogy in general, and the promise it gives of surname/DNA matches which can take us back further than in Britain. We just have to be a bit careful with the early stuff, like any other source of that date.

There is no relationship between Brun (which is the French equivalent of Brown and pretty common) and O'Byrne, descendant of Bran. Whatever might might happen in Quebec, this Brun is descended from a French Brun.

Kelly is too common to get us anywhere I'm afraid.



Title: Re: DF23
Post by: Dubhthach on April 03, 2012, 05:53:01 PM
Kehoe/Keogh in Ui Maine is interesting Miles, though I would wait awhile to see what else turns up.

I'm all for Irish genealogy in general, and the promise it gives of surname/DNA matches which can take us back further than in Britain. We just have to be a bit careful with the early stuff, like any other source of that date.

There is no relationship between Brun (which is the French equivalent of Brown and pretty common) and O'Byrne, descendant of Bran. Whatever might might happen in Quebec, this Brun is descended from a French Brun.

Kelly is too common to get us anywhere I'm afraid.



Well "Byrne" is one of those names where several different names in irish lanuage have ended up with one angliscation. In case of Roscommon (North of Uí Maine) you have Ó Birn (basically O'Burn)

Quote
Ó BIRN—O Birn, O Birne, O Byrn, O'Beirne, O'Bierne, O'Byrne, Birne, Beirne, Byrne, Birnes, Byrns, Byrnes, (Byron, Burns); 'descendant of Biorn' (the Norse personal name Bjorn); a variant of Ó Beirn, which see. The present is the usual form of the name in the Annals; Ó Beirn was apparently more common at a later period. There are two distinct families of the name in Connacht: (1) Ó Birn of Siol-Muireadhaig. This family first came into prominence as stewards to the O'Connors, Kings of Connacht and sometimes of all Ireland. About the middle of the 13th century, they superseded the O'Monaghans as chiefs of Tir-Bhriuin, a beautiful district in Co. Roscommon, a position which they continued to hold for more than three hundred years. In the year 1570, Teig Byrne, alias O Byrne, was 'the chiefest of Tirowyne' (Tir-Bhriuin), and several gentlemen of the name are mentioned in the Fiants of Elizabeth. (2) Ó Birn of Ui Fiachrach. This family enjoyed, at the beginning of the 15th century, a considerable estate in Co. Mayo, a little to the north of Ballinrobe, and there were respectable families of the name in that county at the end of the 16th century. O'Donovan found the name, under the anglicised form of Byrne, in the very district anciently occupied by the family. O'Beirne and O'Byrne were in use in Lecale, Co. Down, at the beginning of the 17th century, but whether the Irish was Ó Birn, or Ó Broin (which see), I am unable to say.

Ceallach was an extremely popular firstname in early medieval Ireland. In case of Ó Ceallaigh there are at least nine septs:

Quote
Ó CEALLAIGH—I—O'Kelly, Kelly, Kelley; 'descendant of Ceallach' (war, contention); the name of several distinct families, of which the following are the best known: (1) Ó Ceallaigh of Ui Maine, a branch of the Oirghialla of Ulster. They were one of the most powerful families in Connacht, and as chiefs of Ui Maine ruled over an extensive territory in the counties of Galway and Roscommon, which they held down to the reign of Elizabeth. This family produced many distinguished chiefs, among them Tadhg Mór Ó Ceallaigh who fell at Clontarf in 1014. (2) Ó Ceallaigh of Breagh, a branch of the southern Ui Neill, who were lords of Breagh, an extensive district embracing a large portion of Meath and the north of Co. Dublin, until after the Anglo-Norman invasion, when they were dispossessed and dispersed throughout Ireland. Conghalach Ó Ceallaigh, the last lord of Breagh, died in 1292. (3) Ó Ceallaigh of Cinel Eachach in the barony of Loughinsholin, Co. Derry, where they are still numerous; (4) Ó Ceallaigh of Leighe, now Lea, (5) Ó Ceallaigh of Magh Druchtain, (6) Ó Ceallaigh of Gallen, all three in Leix; (7) Ó Ceallaigh of Ui Teigh, in the north of the present Co. Wicklow; (8) Ó Ceallaigh of Árd Ó gCeallaigh, in the parish of Templeboy, Co. Sligo; and (9) Ó Ceallaigh of Corca Laoighdhe, in the south-west of Co. Cork.

There are two septs of MacCeallaigh, at least one is same as Ó Cealaigh of Uí Máine. As a Galwegian I an attest that Kelly is still extremely common surname in County Galway, as is Madden. Do we know of any Madden's that match DF23 signature?

Quote
Ó MADÁIN—I—O Maddane, O Madden, Madden; 'descendant of Madadhán' (diminutive of madadh, a dog); older form Ó Madadháin, now generally Ó Madaidhín, which see, with variants Ó Madaidh and Ó Madagáin, which see; the name of a distinguished branch of the Ui Maine in Co. Galway, who derive their descent from Madadhán (slain in 1008), who was son of Gadhra Mor, chief of Ui Maine from 1014 to 1027, and are of the same stock as the O'Kellys, with whom they originally formed one clan—the Ui Maine. About the middle of the 11th century, Siol nAnmchadha, a sub-division of the Ui Maine, became independent, and from that period down to the middle of the 17th century the chieftaincy of Siol nAnmchadha continued in almost unbroken succession in the family of O'Madden. The clan-lands, which in accordance with Irish usage were named from the clan, comprised the barony of Longford, in the south-east of Co. Galway, and the parish of Lusnagh, on the other side of the Shannon, in the present Offaly. Many distinguished chiefs of the name are mentioned in the Irish annals. In 1612, Donal O'Madden, 'captain of his nation,' settled his manor and castle of Longford and all his other estates in Co. Galway on his son and heir, Anmchadh, or Ambrose, O'Madden, in tail male. Ambrose died in 1637, and was succeeded by his son, John O'Madden. John's property was confiscated after the Cromwellian wars, but was in part restored in 1677 by grant under the Act of Settlement. Five of the name were attainted in 1691. The O'Maddens of Co. Antrim (formerly called O Maddegane) are probably a distinct family. On the other hand, there is reason to believe that the Anglo-Irish family of Madden, formerly of Baggotrath, near Dublin, is a branch of the O'Maddens of Siol nAnmchadha.

The Uí Máine are interestin, obviously as mention there is the connection to Oirialla (Airghíalla -- old Irish) however there is also the fact that they later changed their genealogy to claim that they were descended from Máine mac Néill (ala Niall)

Even if you ignore such fabrications of genalogy the political geography would have seen them surrounded in most directions by Connachta populations. There's a probability that they were all part of one tribal confederation or were military vassals which at later times were given favourable genealogies for political reasons in the 7-9th centuries.


Title: Re: DF23
Post by: OConnor on April 03, 2012, 06:04:20 PM
Has there been much testing for DF23 in Scotland?