More Chaos

FTDNA just started providing their long form haplogroup again. 

  • FTDNA's Haplogroup tree is different than it used to be and different from what ISOGG provides.
  • FTDNA is reporting quite a few long form Haplogroups on their ySNP view in their Project Public pages and in the GAP - with a good number of the T-SNP format mixed in.  Sometimes, the long form is also in the Results table info for yDNA.  There is no consistency.
  • FTDNA is now calling the "Terminal SNP" by another name.  It's now "short hand" on their ySNP page.and "Haplogroup" on their yDNA results page.  That's good news in one respect, as "Terminal SNP" was a particularly confusing label - as it is clearly not anyone's true Terminal SNP.when they have an estimate and is probalby not their Terminal SNP when they have been Deep Clade SNP tested.
  • Ironically, things were less difficult when FTDNA was not providing their long form Haplogroup at all - as then, it didn't matter which differences they had with the ISOGG tree.  Now, the differences will be quite confusing - particularly when they sometimes report the "short hand" and sometimes report the long form. 

WorldFamilies will continue to post the T-SNP (short hand) from FTDNA and the Long Form Haplogroup from ISOGG.   We'll soon change the label to reflect FTDNA's new name for the "T-SNP" - "Short Hand"

To give one example of how different ISOGG & FTDNA are these days, here is my long form Haplogroup from both organizations:

FTDNA: R1b1a1a1a1a4a4
ISOGG: R1b1a2a1a2b1b

We can only hope that they will align soon



Long Form Haplogroup

SNPs are confusing enough what with all the different designations such as S, M, FGC, PF, etc. Why do the Powers-That-Be make it even more confusing by sticking to the constantly-changing long forms? What is necessary about them? I have cleared them from my projects in favor of T-SNPs (or shorthand) and am using the space to show who has tested for which advanced SNP test--G2 (Geno 2.0), Ch2 (Chromo2) BY (Big Y), and FGS (Full Genome Scan).

Long Form and Short Hand

Paul, you have done such a nice job of administering your Byrne project through the years that I can only compliment your work.  Identifying who has done an advanced Deep Clade test is a great touch.

I can't speak for others - but for me the key to dealing with SNPs is to be able to look at a Lineage and know which is the most recent SNP.  Without a long form reference, there are two choices: memorize the SNPs (who can do that for more than a very few Lineages?) or look it up (and I do that at ISOGG frequently) 

My Results Tool checks ISOGG every night to identify any additions to their tree the previous day.  When ever a WorldFamilies Results page is updated by our Tool, it has the Short Hand identified by FTDNA and the corresponding Long Form from ISOGG.  That provides both options to folks.  And - the page scroll is set to freeze the kit number and earliest ancestor, so the wide column with the long form is the first to disappear when you scroll right.  The marker labels are also set so that they continue to display as you scroll down the page.

It seems like every few weeks, the browsers take turns providing the best view and the worst one.  The other day, Internet Explorer was providing the best display of our Results pages that were prepared by the Tool


Maybe need to just report the version (year) after the long form

I think the confusion is that FTDNA (and 23andMe for that matter) need to qualify the Haplogroup designation to the "edition" of the tree they used. Historically, until very recently, FTDNA has been using the 2009 tree and 23andMe the 2010 tree. But maybe like you, I have always been mapping and reporting / using the latest "stable" tree on ISOGG. Hence, I try to always report the version and tend to report multiple values so people on different sites can make a proper comparison. With the raw SNP results, one can map into any version of the Haplogroup tree at ISOGG. I built a spreadsheet calculator to do the mapping for me but have been meaning to turn it into a PHP-written app.

Maybe need to just report the version (year) after the long form

I agree that 23andMe needs to report their reference Tree.  I believe that it is identified somewhere on their site and recall it is a 2010 version.  Joanna Mountain stated at the I4GG Conference that 23 was looking into updating their reference tree

As long as FTDNA doesn't share their tree with us - it really doesn't matter what version it is.  Unfortunately, FTDNA is reporting some Short Hand SNPs that are not on the ISOGG tree


ftdna sites

Trying to work w/the Myers site is mind-boggling. I can't tell if I'm signed up easily nor how to use the World sites there such as the Patriarch site. Also, I can't tell if my Geno 2.0 results are available to these sites, nor how to make them available, nor how to use them to find out more info or to how to upload data into any sort of family tree. Is this some sort of weeding-out effort?

ftdna sites

For all of you testers out there who don't read the welcome email - please go to

Addressing specific comments:

1. You do not have to be signed in at WorldFamilies to view project info

2. If you can "Log Out" in the left side bar, then yoiu are signed in.  If you see "Log In" in the left side bar - then you are not logged in

3. Send your Myers Pedigree to  If you provide your kit number, it will be placed on the Myers Patriarch page.

4. Your Geno 2.0 info is NOT available at WorldFamilies if you have not transferred it to FTDNA.  The only info displayed at WorldFamilies that could possibly be from the Geno 2.0 for a kit is the short Hand version of the Haplogroup that FTDNA provides with the marker results.  If you have not done a marker test at FTDNA - then you will not have any results reported on the WorldFamilies Myers Results page 

5. "Google" to find info on how to do something when you are frustrated.  National Geographic doesn't make it easy to find the upload/transfer link.  Use "Upload Geno 2.0 to FTDNA"  Here is the link you need: