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Author Topic: Is mtDNA R0a2c only Arab?  (Read 1461 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: September 11, 2012, 06:21:02 AM »

I have written a lot about mtDNA R0a2. A few time ago it seemed that also 23andMe accepted that it was born in Europe, but after, perhaps for the papers of Cerny et al., they decided for an origin in Middle East. In the last reassessment of Behar 2012b I have some difficulties in finding the “Tuscan” R0a with HVRI 16126C 16230G 16362C 16497G and 16126C 16266T 16362C.
Now a friend of mine sends me the 23andMe of his father from Campania. It is an R0a2c, said by Cerny et al. “restricted to the Arabian Peninsula” (Internal diversification of mitochondrial haplogroup R0a reveals Last Glacial Maximum demographic expansion in South Arabia, p. 9).

These are the mutations in the 23andMe data:

58C 263G 750G 1438G 2355G 2442C 2706G 3847C 4232T 4769G 6975T 7028T 8860G 13188T
14766T 15326G 15674C 16304G 16311C 16362C

and this is the R0a2c/DQ904238

T59A 60.1T C64T A263G 309.1C A750G A1438G A2355G T2442C A2706G T3847C A4769G C7028T A8860G T13095C C13188T C14766T A15326G C15661T T15674C T16126C T16304C T16311C T16362C

We can see that the Italian has the mutations 4232T and 6975T in the CR and the Arab the mutations 13095C and 15661T. Then certainly they are separated from many thousands of years and the Italian sample isn’t derived in recent times from an introgression from MiddLe East.

On Mitosearch we have two other samples with these mutations (16126 16304 16311 16362): 694ZY from Germany and 7GR64 from Sicily (Italy).




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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2012, 01:10:28 PM »

Perhaps it isn’t by chance that the R0a2 present in Europe are the most ancient:

Roa2 14149.8 +/- 2387.3
R0a2c 10546.1 +/- 6060.1
R0a2f 12626.3 +/- 3323.0

and I don’t speak of the R0ab found in Sicily: 22428.3 +/- 6156.3

From South to North or from North to South after the Last Glacial Maximum.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2012, 05:10:15 PM »

(From 23andMe)

“Is mtDNA R0a2c only Arab?”
Posted by Gioiello in Maternal Haplogroup R0a
I have written a lot about mtDNA R0a2. A few time ago it seemed that also 23andMe accepted that it was born in Europe, but after, perhaps for the papers of Cerny et al., they decided for an origin in Middle East. In the last reassessment of Behar 2012b I have some difficulties in finding the “Tuscan” R0a with HVRI 16126C 16230G 16362C 16497G and 16126C 16266T 16362C.
Now a friend of mine sends me the 23andMe of his father from Campania. It is an R0a2c, said by Cerny et al. “restricted to the Arabian Peninsula” (Internal diversification of mitochondrial haplogroup R0a reveals Last Glacial Maximum demographic expansion in South Arabia, p. 9).

These are the mutations in the 23andMe data:

58C 64T 263G 750G 1438G 2355G 2442C 2706G 3847C 4232T 4769G 6975T 7028T 8860G 13188T 14766T 15326G 15674C 16304G 16311C 16362C
 
and this is the R0a2c/DQ904238
T59A 60.1T C64T A263G 309.1C A750G A1438G A2355G T2442C A2706G T3847C A4769G C7028T A8860G T13095C C13188T C14766T A15326G C15661T T15674C T16126C T16304C T16311C T16362C
We can see that the Italian has the mutations 4232T and 6975T in the CR and the Arab the mutations 13095C and 15661T. Then certainly they are separated from many thousands of years and the Italian sample isn’t derived in recent times from an introgression from MiddLe East. On Mitosearch we have two other samples with these mutations (16126 16304 16311 16362): 694ZY from Germany and 7GR64 from Sicily (Italy).Sep 11, 2012 (4 days ago)
 
15 Responses (reply)

   Gioiello: Perhaps it isn’t by chance that the R0a2 present in Europe are the most ancient:Roa2 14149.8 +/- 2387.3R0a2c 10546.1 +/- 6060.1R0a2f 12626.3 +/- 3323.0and I don’t speak of the R0ab found in Sicily: 22428.3 +/- 6156.3From South to North or from North to South after the Last Glacial Maximum.Sep 11, 2012 (4 days ago)
 
   Brellion: So what does this mean for those of us who don't know much about how this stuff works? Sep 13, 2012 (1 day ago)
 
   Gioiello: @Brellion First of all you could send me your 23andme mtDNA. Go to your account, browse raw data, password, secret answer, load raw data, go to the bottom, copy and paste your mt, send my address gioiellotgnn06@gmail.com. I am very curious to see an R0a2 from the Isles.Sep 13, 2012 (1 day ago)
 
   Shimmy1988: @GioielloI don't know if this will help you out, but many of these haplogroups including the haplogroup R0a can be found in frequencies in different areas of the world and these haplogroups also trace maternal or paternal lineage going back thousands of years, that unless you know for sure where your maternal lineage traces to and unless you also find people that match your mitochondrial sequence, it can be hard to narrow down the origins of your haplogroup. From what I could read about haplogroup R0a, it is more of a Middle Eastern haplogroup, but it can be found in diverse populations such as Jews, Arab, Northern African, and even European and East African populations. It does appear that your maternal lineage could trace back to the Middle East which some Europeans do find that they do have more Middle Eastern haplogroups due either to migration or intermixing. I wish you luck in your search. :)Sep 13, 2012 (1 day ago)

   Gioiello: @Shimmy1988 I thank you for your response, but my mitochondrial haplogroup isn't R0a2: I am only studying it for my theories about the Italian Refugium. My haplogroup is K1a1b1e, born certainly in Italy about 7000 years ago and diffused to the British Isles with the mutation 477.Sep 13, 2012 (1 day ago)
  
   Shimmy1988: @Gioiello Ok. Hopefully others with this haplogroup can get a general idea of it from what I posted. I apologize for assuming you were a part of this haplogroup.Sep 13, 2012 (1 day ago)
 
   Dorolga: @ Gioiello: "We can see that the Italian has the mutations 4232T and 6975T in the CR and the Arab the mutations 13095C and 15661T. Then certainly they are separated from many thousands of years and the Italian sample isn’t derived in recent times from an introgression from MiddLe East."How do you know from the above mutations that they separated many thousands of years ago and not say 800 years ago subsequent to the Arab conquest of Siciliy between 902-1061?Sep 14, 2012 (14 hours ago)
 
   Kw Kw Lau: @Gioiello, do you research on other haplogroup? Mt-haplogroup Z? Are there people doing research of mt-haplogroup Z?Sep 15, 2012 (12 hours ago)

   Gioiello: @ Kw Kw Lau I haven't been interested so far to hg. Z, because it is an Asian one and practically not found in Europe, but it may be studied like every other haplogroup.Sep 15, 2012 (12 hours ago)
 
   Gioiello: @ Dorolga One mutation in the Coding Region may value also 7800 years if the mutation is synonymous. I'll look at it. Anyway 2 mutations =10,000 years was a calculation on average. They could be also much more, above all because haplogroup J/T and R0a probably have a slowest mutation rate than other haplogroups.Sep 15, 2012 (12 hours ago)
 
   Gioiello: 4232T isn't a mutations, then remains only 4975T, which is non synonymous one and also a transversion. Anyway the Italian sample is tested only on about 2500 SNPs out of 16569, and we should get an FGS to know all the mutations. The Arab sample maintains its two mutations in the Coding Region which are synonymous ones and thus between the Italian and the Arab mtDNA there is a separation of at least 15,000 years. The Arab samples isn't from Arabia but from Middle East, because Arabia was peopled from Middle East after the LGM. If these R0a are from Middle East (as also 23andme supports) or from Europe (as I support) shall be ascertained by other studies. Unfortunately I must say that many Italians, above all from South Italy and Sicily, convinced (wrongly) to be of Arab, Jewish or elsewhere from Middle East origin, don't collaborate by the exam of their mtDNA, which frequently gets the most ancient haplotypes. But also this problem will be solved.Sep 15, 2012 (7 hours ago)

   Brellion: Gioiello, I have my whole genome as a zipped file. I don't fully understand your instructions, as I don't see anywhere to just download my mtDNA information from the site. Do you want me to unzip my genome file and just send you the mtDNA part? Also, I match a Sicilian-descended person on the X-chromosome, but not on atDNA. So I must have more recent Southern European admixture somewhere.Sep 15, 2012 (2 hours ago)

   Gioiello: · Brellion, you have your data on your 23andme account. If you click on “account” (beside your name; above right), you have this:· My Profile· Settings· Manage Sharing· Browse Raw DataClick “browse raw data”There appears “download raw data”They ask your password and Secret answerAt the bottom there are “Download data”. Click.It appear the zip file. If you open it with OK, you have all your data tested by 23andme, from chromosome 1 to mt at the bottom. If you go at the bottom, you can upload all the mtDNA SNPs and you may send them to me. My address is: gioiellotgnn06@gmail.com. End.Sep 15, 2012 (2 hours ago)
 
   Brellion: Okay, thanks for the longer explanation. I'll send it to you now.Sep 15, 2012 (1 hour ago)
 
   Gioiello: I have to do some corrections to my analysis. The mutations of the Italian from Campania cited above are:

58C 64T 263G 750G 1438G 2355G 2442C 2706G 3847C 4232T 4769G 7028T8860G 13188T 14766T 15326G 15674C 16126C 16304G 16311C 16362C

Even though tested on less than 2500 SNPs out of 16569, he is clearly hg. R0a2c with the mutation 16311C like the Arab DQ904238. He hasn’t other mutations, whereas DQ904238 has T13095C and C15661T. We don’t know if the Italian person has other mutations, not being tested by an FGS. Anyway we can say that it is more likely that the Arab descend from the Italian rather than the other way around.The mutations of Brellion are:

64T 263G 750G 1438G 2355G 2442C 2706G 3847C 4232T 4769G 7028T 8860G 13188T 14766T 15326C 15674C 16126C 16362C

He is R0a2 for the mutation A2355G.
For 14544G he isn’t R0a2a
For 5237G he isn’t R0a2b
For 16304T he isn’t R0a2c
For 3438G he isn’t R0a2d
For 7256C he isn’t R0a2e
For 8251G he isn’t R0a2f
For 9128T he isn’t R0a2g
For 16172T he isn’t R0a2h
For 9337T he isn’t R0a2i
12295 for R0a2k isn’t tested, but for 3531G he isn’t R0a2k1
The mutations of R0a2l aren’t tested
For 4767A he isn’t R0a2m
Then more likely Brellion is R0a2*, the most ancient and original, like the R0a2* found in Tuscany and Central Italy.I believe once more that R0a is born in Europe, probably in the Italian Refugium, and diffused to Middle East after the Last Glacial Maximum, as also 23andMe wrote till a few time ago, before the last paper of Cerny et al.Sep 15, 2012 (moments ago)

   Brellion: Thank you for running the test."I believe once more that R0a is born in Europe, probably in the Italian Refugium, and diffused to Middle East after the Last Glacial Maximum, as also 23andMe wrote till a few time ago, before the last paper of Cerny et al."Has anyone saved what 23andme wrote about R0a before they changed it?Sep 15, 2012 (1 minute ago)

   Gioiello: This is what FTDNA writes about hg.R0a:

Mitochondrial haplogroup R0a (formerly known as pre-HV1) is a primarily European haplogroup that was present in Europe beginning approximately 20,000 years ago. It occurs in very low frequency throughout Europe, and some descendant lineages of the original haplogroup R0a appear in the Near East as a result of migration. It was probably one of the original mitochondrial haplogroups in Europe, and likely pre-dates the occurrence of farming in Europe. Future work will better resolve the distribution and historical characteristics of this haplogroup.

And I have a Tuscan R0a2 tested by FTDNA:

60.1T 64T 263G 309.1C 315.1C 750G 1438G 2355G 2442C 2706G 3447G 3847C 4769G 5585A 7028T 8860G 11914A 12885T 13188T 14766T 15326G 15626T 15674C 16126C 16266T 16362C

Sep 15, 2012 (moments ago)

« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 11:39:05 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2012, 12:32:45 AM »

   Brellion: Very interesting! I hadn't heard this alternate explanation of the origin of R0a. We'll have to see what subsequent studies confirm. When and why would there be migration from Europe to the Middle East? I thought most of the migration went the other way, from the Middle East into Europe.Sep 15, 2012 (7 hours ago)

   Gioiello: This is another prejudice, that of "ex Oriente lux", which, having strong religious assumptions, is hard to demolish. By the distributions of many haplogroups we may infer that after the Last Glacial Maximum many haplogroups expanded from South Europe not only to North Europe but also to the Russian Plane (see Malyarchuk's papers) and to Middle East. The religious prejudice about mtDNA R0a is due to the fact that this implicates hg. H. In another side also K (see how is fundamental K1a1b1a for the Jewish ancestry), but also the Y R (at least from R1b1*), about which I am doing a struggle from many years, amongst many banishments from many forums.Sep 15, 2012 (4 minutes ago)

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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2013, 11:59:10 AM »

My father's mtDNA is an R0a2. His mother's line has been traced to the region of Basilicata in Southern Italy back to the 1600's. His test was done by 23andme.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2013, 04:47:11 PM »

My father's mtDNA is an R0a2. His mother's line has been traced to the region of Basilicata in Southern Italy back to the 1600's. His test was done by 23andme.

This I wrote a few days ago to a person who contacted me by mail. After no answer:

Hi Elizabeth, I thank you for your post and your data. The fact that your maternal origin isn't in Italy but in France doesn't make your data less interesting. Your data are given as the new Behar's reassessment (RSRS), but for the ancient rCRS your mutations would be these:
T16126C C16188T T16362C
where the mutation C16188T is new and rare.
Unfortunately you have been tested only for the HVRI, and without HVRII and above all the coding region I cannot say more, but your haplotype promises to be interesting. Then I invite you to test for an FMS, you could do by an upgrading probably for about 150 dollars. Perhaps they aren't a few, but I think it merits the expense for understanding your maternal origin and also those of hg. R0a.
Kind regards, Gioiello Tognoni
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Maliclavelli


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