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Maliclavelli
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« on: July 17, 2011, 04:43:37 AM »

S136 is a mutation found in me (ySearch KV7Y2) from EthnoAncestry. It is a deletion of 9 bp in the region of L50 and often it is confused with it, but L50 is a point mutation: rs13303711 in Y-7012023 from C to T. It isn’t easy to test this mutation and EthnoAncestry did it by an indirect way, i.e. by testing the STRs of that region.
The closest to me is Giancarlo Tognoni (ySearch XG6HX): same surname even though no record of relatedness. Our families separated during the 15th century and there are 15 generations between us. Using a method to calculate the MRCA taking in consideration only the markers mutated and their Mutation Rate (that used by John Chandler I esteemed the most reliable) I got pretty the same generations.
I tested Giancarlo Tognoni c/o EthnoAncestry and he too was found derived, then this mutation is at least 500 years old.
The closest to me, after Giancarlo Tognoni, is an Anonymous Brazilian tested by SMGF I wasn’t able to find and to test. After this Anonymous Brazilian the closest to me I found are the descendants of a Swiss family of the Region Bern, numerous in Switzerland and amongst the Americans: Flückiger/Flickinger. I have tested an American Flickinger and it is resulted ancestral. The thing interesting of these Flückigers is that they came from Weissenburg, the ancient Biriciana on the Roman “Limes”, where Roman troops stayed for centuries and also the Ala of the Hispanic cavalry. It was easy to hypothesize a common origin from an Etruscan/Roman man, not excluding a German common origin, being my haplogroup (thought of Oriental origin, but by me mostly Italian) diffused also near Italy and in the Rhine Valley. This I wrote to the administrator of the Flickinger project c/o DNAHeritage and now transferred c/o FTDNA, Robin Flickinger Gaynor:
I have calculated the MRCA between the Tognonis (me: KV7Y2) and the Flückigers by a new method of mine:
DYS19 (394) =0,001548
DYS385a=0,002800
DYS389I=0,002584
DYS392=0,001488
DYS459a=0,001176
DYS447=0,003891
DYS449x2=0,006464
DYS460=0,002942
H4=0,003044
DYS456=0,005342
A10x2=0,003794
DYS446x2=0,003143
0,051617:15= 0,003441
1000000:3441=290
(290x15)/86=50,58
50,58x32= 1618
1950(about)-1618=332A[nno] D[omini]
Between me and a Flückiger/Flickinger of today there are about 51 generations. Calculating a generation of 32 years, these are the results: a common ancestor in the first half of the 4th century AD. Of course these data could change by changing some of these parameters, but I think that the times are about these. Of course this doesn’t mean that the Flickingers have the SNP S136, which could be happened later and it isn’t said that we are Romans, Etruscans, etc. I have always taken in consideration also a German origin of my family, even though we link our haplogroup more with Italy than with North Europe, but it isn’t said. Of course your project at FTDNA, by collecting more data as possible, will be able to contribute to answer this questions”.
We could shed some doubt on the times, i.e. the link between me and the Flickingers could be also more ancient, and who knows me knows that I have always thought against these short times, but have always said that within a few thousands of years these calculations may work. I think not on more ancient times, when the mutations around the modal could hide their true number.
What about this result? From one side it is disappointing, but from the other, if the times calculated are reliable, is an indication that my mutation is recent, between about 500 to 1500 AD, and this is good for me, because my haplotype belongs to the most ancient R1b1a2a from which were generated the European subclades. Of course also the mutations found in some Eastern R1b1a2a, like L277, L405 etc., could be recent like mine, but this shall be calculated by the same my way.
Testing some relatives of mine at 23andMe (and about this I have spoken in other threads) I found an R1b1a2a in my cousin’s husband Giorgio Tognarelli. I know he doesn’t get my SNP S136+, being at rs13303711=C, the ancestral, then not L50+ nor a deletion. The next step will be to test him at least for 37 markers now that we are all at FTDNA, for understanding how close he is to me and to calculate at the same time how recent is my S136+ he clearly hasn’t. With this order I’ll do also an FGS for the K1c1 of my wife and my daughter and son.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 03:08:59 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

OConnor
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« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2011, 09:20:47 AM »

A little bit off topic.. but there has been a female skeleton found in Northern Italy.
5000 years old. http://www.stonepages.com/news/archives/004425.html
aDNA would be nice. Perhaps it would show an additional mtdna group to Otzi's K ?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 09:21:18 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2011, 10:54:14 AM »

I had the news from Italian Television last Saturday and was waiting that someone published something on some forum I usually read. Not seeing anything, yesterday I published this news here, having some doubts about the translation. I thank you, because the news is pretty the same, and I have some comparison with my translation. An occasion more to better my English.
This finding isn’t like that of Ötzi, because this is only a skeleton and I suppose her DNA won’t be the same at the level of the conservation, but anyway some useful information will be able to be got.

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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2011, 11:55:46 AM »

We all (me: KV7Y2 and my relative Giancarlo Tognoni: XG6HX and the Flickingers ) were tested by DNAHeritage. Now, by the transferring of the data to FTDNA, above all Giancarlo Tognoni has been signalled close to a Dubin (2 mismatches over 25). But I already knew a Dubin, tested by SMGF and by me extracted and put on ySearch: Y5X5F, clearly close related to him if not the same.
By using my calculation of the MRCA between Giancarlo Tognoni (XG6HX) and Dubin (Y5X5F), these are the results (9 mismatches over 43 markers, those tested by SMGF):
DYS391: 0,003155
DYS459b: 0,001176
DYS460: 0,002942
H4: 0,003044
DYS456: 0,005342
DYS444: 0,002956
DYS461: 0,002327
A10: 0,003794
DYS452: 0,001743
0,026479:9=0,002942
1000000:2942=339,9
(339,9x9):86=35,57
35,57x32=1138
1932(birth date of Giancarlo Tognoni)-1138=794AD
Then we can hypothesize that the MRCA between the ancestor of the Dubins and of the Tognonis had lived at the end of the 8th century, then after the ancestor between the ancestor of the Tognonis and the Flückigers. I don’t know if some of these Dubins will accept to do the test for S136. Anyway I think that at least a Dubin has done 23andMe and it would be enough to see at his rs13303711/7012023 (6952023): if he is C he is ancestral, if he gets a no call, probably he gets the mutation S136+.
These Dubin/Dubinsky are Ashkenazi Jews, then my ancient question: am I a Jew or are these Jews Italians? doesn’t yet get an answer, but I feel that we are on the right road.




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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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