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Author Topic: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21  (Read 7197 times)
rms2
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« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2011, 02:29:31 PM »

So far today, two more Germans, a Frenchman, and a Dane have gotten DF21 results - all of them negative.
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rms2
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« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2011, 07:25:13 PM »

So far today, two more Germans, a Frenchman, and a Dane have gotten DF21 results - all of them negative.

Two more Germans and one more Frenchman have gotten DF21- results since that earlier post.

So here are the updated continental DF21 results thus far:

DF21-

Belarus  -  1

Denmark  -  2

France  -  8

Germany  -  9

Norway  -  1

Spain  -  3

DF21+

Netherlands  -  1
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« Reply #52 on: August 31, 2011, 09:35:40 AM »

Big news for DF21. I think everyone knows I can't find a single STR that is off-modal for all DF21+ founds. There is no single off-modal signature, just L21 All's modal itself.  This is an implication of old age. The large GD's between DF21+ is another indicator of old age.

The new news is a 425=null 511=9 guy has come up DF21+. The Little Scots already came in as DF21+ but 425n9 is much larger. They have their own project called the Clan Colla project.

Clan Colla Null 425 project  http://www.familytreedna.com/public/clancolla425null/default.aspx

"DNA of the Three Collas" at: http://www.peterspioneers.com/colla.htm

I'm neutral on the Three Collas - I don't know what is true or not.

The following is from David Reynolds' DF21 Project Background Page...

Predicted DF21+ Clusters
21-1014-A
21-1169-A
21-1169-B
21-1722
21-3016
21-49211 includes Ely Carrol
21-LS (was 1030-A-Sc-LS) Little Scots
......
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 10:40:52 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
rms2
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« Reply #53 on: August 31, 2011, 01:13:01 PM »

I saw that last night and wondered about the implications of it. I don't know much about the whole Colla thing either.

DF21 is not doing too well on the Continent. That could change, but thus far there are no real indications (beyond the single Dutch hit) that it will.

I haven't made an exact count (and probably won't), but it seems to me the DF21 negatives far outnumber the DF21 positives. Last time I was counting, I think the positives were running at about 15% of the total.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #54 on: August 31, 2011, 05:20:51 PM »

... DF21 is not doing too well on the Continent. That could change, but thus far there are no real indications (beyond the single Dutch hit) that it will....

That brings up a good point. How many WTY L21 people are from the continent? Perhaps that's where we should look for old SNPs under L21?
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rms2
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« Reply #55 on: August 31, 2011, 05:27:54 PM »

... DF21 is not doing too well on the Continent. That could change, but thus far there are no real indications (beyond the single Dutch hit) that it will....

That brings up a good point. How many WTY L21 people are from the continent? Perhaps that's where we should look for old SNPs under L21?

I think a few of them are in the L21 WTY, but I don't know how many. I agree with you.

I just got my DF21 result. I am DF21-, so there goes my budding fascination with it!

It's just as well. I'm holding out for DF23 and hoping for a positive result on that one. I kind of always wanted to be M222+. A DF23+ result would be the next best thing. :-)
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #56 on: August 31, 2011, 07:01:18 PM »

... DF21 is not doing too well on the Continent. That could change, but thus far there are no real indications (beyond the single Dutch hit) that it will....

That brings up a good point. How many WTY L21 people are from the continent? Perhaps that's where we should look for old SNPs under L21?

I think a few of them are in the L21 WTY, but I don't know how many. I agree with you.

I just got my DF21 result. I am DF21-, so there goes my budding fascination with it!

It's just as well. I'm holding out for DF23 and hoping for a positive result on that one. I kind of always wanted to be M222+. A DF23+ result would be the next best thing. :-)

Well at least you got a result. I ordered DF19 back in June, and it was due 8/1, and still no result.
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Heber
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« Reply #57 on: August 31, 2011, 07:03:58 PM »

Clan Colla were from the Kingdom of Airghilla which roughly corresponds to modern day Monaghan, Armagh, Louth and parts of Fermanagh. This is where my ancient ancestors came from in the 6th C. One of my closest matches on FTDNA is Mc Mahon of Clan Colla. Clan Donald of Dal Riada claim decent from Clan Colla. Clan Colla were directly related to Niall of the Nine Hostages (sons???).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airg%C3%ADalla

A genealogy of the Three Colla's is given here.

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/colla.htm

Edit. Waiting for DF23 availability.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 08:32:35 PM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



rms2
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« Reply #58 on: August 31, 2011, 07:22:07 PM »

DF23? I don't see that FTDNA is testing for it yet.

Did you order it from someone else?
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Heber
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« Reply #59 on: August 31, 2011, 08:49:46 PM »

Rich,
Thanks for pointing that out. I have corrected the post.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



rms2
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« Reply #60 on: September 01, 2011, 07:14:18 AM »

Rich,
Thanks for pointing that out. I have corrected the post.

I'm waiting for DF23, too. I'll probably be negative for it, but it would be nice to get a positive result.

I wrote FTDNA yesterday evening asking when they plan to offer it.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #61 on: September 01, 2011, 01:49:19 PM »

I too am waiting for DF23 and hoping that my DYS390=25, DYS449=30 and DYS481=24 are an indication of a pre-M222+ Haplotype. I have recently tested L513- and have ordered DF21. Of course, if I come up DF21+ then I believe that negates my chance of being DF23+
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mtDNA: T2g
rms2
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« Reply #62 on: September 01, 2011, 02:09:54 PM »

I too am waiting for DF23 and hoping that my DYS390=25, DYS449=30 and DYS481=24 are an indication of a pre-M222+ Haplotype. I have recently tested L513- and have ordered DF21. Of course, if I come up DF21+ then I believe that negates my chance of being DF23+

I thought of you when I first heard about DF23. It occurred to me that if anyone ought to be DF23+ based on haplotype, it's you.

I want to be DF23+, just because I've always thought M222 is glamorous (yeah, I do). John Wayne (Marion M. Morrison) was M222+, and DF23 is supposed to be between L21 and M222, but my haplotype gives no indication that I will get my wish.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 02:17:15 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #63 on: September 01, 2011, 02:24:47 PM »

... DF21 is not doing too well on the Continent. That could change, but thus far there are no real indications (beyond the single Dutch hit) that it will....

That brings up a good point. How many WTY L21 people are from the continent? Perhaps that's where we should look for old SNPs under L21?

I think a few of them are in the L21 WTY, but I don't know how many. I agree with you.

I just got my DF21 result. I am DF21-, so there goes my budding fascination with it!

It's just as well. I'm holding out for DF23 and hoping for a positive result on that one. I kind of always wanted to be M222+. A DF23+ result would be the next best thing. :-)

Well at least you got a result. I ordered DF19 back in June, and it was due 8/1, and still no result.

You should contact FTDNA. They might need some new samples from you.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2011, 05:11:09 PM »

I too am waiting for DF23 and hoping that my DYS390=25, DYS449=30 and DYS481=24 are an indication of a pre-M222+ Haplotype. I have recently tested L513- and have ordered DF21. Of course, if I come up DF21+ then I believe that negates my chance of being DF23+

I thought of you when I first heard about DF23. It occurred to me that if anyone ought to be DF23+ based on haplotype, it's you.

I want to be DF23+, just because I've always thought M222 is glamorous (yeah, I do). John Wayne (Marion M. Morrison) was M222+, and DF23 is supposed to be between L21 and M222, but my haplotype gives no indication that I will get my wish.

Yea, I'll admit to always wanting to be M222+ as well :) 

Mike W. has found a guy whose Haplotype is amazingly close to M222+ I think the guy's closest matches at 67 markers are M222+!

Well if not us, some lucky guys  LOL
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« Reply #65 on: September 02, 2011, 08:43:48 AM »

I too am waiting for DF23 and hoping that my DYS390=25, DYS449=30 and DYS481=24 are an indication of a pre-M222+ Haplotype. I have recently tested L513- and have ordered DF21. Of course, if I come up DF21+ then I believe that negates my chance of being DF23+

I thought of you when I first heard about DF23. It occurred to me that if anyone ought to be DF23+ based on haplotype, it's you.

I want to be DF23+, just because I've always thought M222 is glamorous (yeah, I do). John Wayne (Marion M. Morrison) was M222+, and DF23 is supposed to be between L21 and M222, but my haplotype gives no indication that I will get my wish.
Assuming DF23+ includes M222, it'll be very interesting to see what M222- guys are DF23+. There is potential in it to support Jean M's theory on M222 coming from La Tene... if we found DF23+ in Germany.  I don't really see likely haplotypes there, though.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2011, 11:32:03 AM »

I too am waiting for DF23 and hoping that my DYS390=25, DYS449=30 and DYS481=24 are an indication of a pre-M222+ Haplotype. I have recently tested L513- and have ordered DF21. Of course, if I come up DF21+ then I believe that negates my chance of being DF23+

I thought of you when I first heard about DF23. It occurred to me that if anyone ought to be DF23+ based on haplotype, it's you.

I want to be DF23+, just because I've always thought M222 is glamorous (yeah, I do). John Wayne (Marion M. Morrison) was M222+, and DF23 is supposed to be between L21 and M222, but my haplotype gives no indication that I will get my wish.

Yea, I'll admit to always wanting to be M222+ as well :) 

Mike W. has found a guy whose Haplotype is amazingly close to M222+ I think the guy's closest matches at 67 markers are M222+!

Well if not us, some lucky guys  LOL

When an M222+ and and M222- guy are close at 67 markers does that not seem odd if M222 happened nearly 1500- 2000 years ago? Should people match closely with someone with whom there TMRCA is 1500-2000 years ago? Is it possible for SNPs to be lost? 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2011, 11:48:18 AM »

If DF23 really is pre-M222 then from what I understand pre-M222 in STR terms tends to be found in SW Scotland and M222 itself is found there too.  My throwaway hunch is that DF23 will be found in L21 in SW Scotland/northern England.  That would also not be totally out of keeping with Jean's La Tene theory.  Although Irish La Tene does seem to have some aspects that slightly differ from British and are more like the continent (think its was the Rhine and Switzerland), much of it is comparable with northern England and its fair to say on simple Geography alone its hard to image any route from the continent to the northern half of Ireland that would not have been via Britain.  

I suppose that leaves the question of the root of DF23 and whether it occurred in northern England/SW Scotland or the continent before that.  If there is a continental link then all I can think off is the Arras culture associated with the Parisii tribe and its connections with the tribe of the same name on the River Seine in France. So maybe some DF23 will be found there.  Total guessology though! 

There are other possibilities like it being slightly later and being linked to the Damnoni of SW Scotland and some of the Fir Domnain peoples in Ireland (including NW Connaught). I often wonder if the Fir Domnain in Ireland did not include both Dumnoni (from SW England) and Damnoni.  It would make geographical sense if the Fir Domnain of the NW were Damnoni and the people of the same name in Leinster were Dumnoni.  Anyway, it is a bit of a coincidence that the Damnoni of SW Scotland and the north of Connaught (where some of the Fir Domnain were located) but have associations with M222.  I think the Fir Domnain were the tribe of Connaughts champion Ferdia who fought Cuchullain in the Ulster Cycle legends.  I have always had a suspicion that the Ui Neill's real origin was as an offshoot of them but I have no real evidence. 
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 12:00:34 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
eochaidh
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« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2011, 06:10:04 PM »

When I use Mike's L21 Worksheet and enter DYS390=25, DYS449=30 and DYS481=24 (and enter DYS385b=14 to weed out M222+), I get:

Corrigan, Ireland
McCormick, Ireland
Burns, Ireland
McGuire, Unknown
Bennett, Unknown
Kehoe, Ireland (me)

Corrigan, McCormick, Burns and McGuire also have DYS448=18, while Bennet and I have DYS413a=21/22 respectively.

My family is from Co. Wexford (Leinster), but my closest matches  are, 7 from Ulster and 1 from Scotland. Oh yea, and 1 from Italy...

Hey, these could be possible DF23+...... we'll see.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe
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rms2
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« Reply #69 on: September 02, 2011, 07:56:37 PM »

I heard back from FTDNA today that the initial tests on DF23 have failed, but they're going to try again. We should have an update in about three weeks.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #70 on: September 02, 2011, 08:58:18 PM »

I heard back from FTDNA today that the initial tests on DF23 have failed, but they're going to try again. We should have an update in about three weeks.

Oh well, we
 wait and hope for the best... in the meantime I should come back DF21-
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« Reply #71 on: September 02, 2011, 09:05:35 PM »

I heard back from FTDNA today that the initial tests on DF23 have failed, but they're going to try again. We should have an update in about three weeks.

Oh well, we
 wait and hope for the best... in the meantime I should come back DF21-


Good things come to those who wait . . . I guess.
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OConnor
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« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2011, 10:45:19 PM »

There are 2 results of DF21- from the R-L159.2 Project.

One member is 464x=CCCg, the other is 464x=CCgg
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


rms2
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« Reply #73 on: September 04, 2011, 06:49:43 AM »

I am a little puzzled by this, but a guy who has already tested P314.2+ got a DF21+ result. I'm not sure if that is an error or if it means P314.2 is downstream of DF21. It cannot mean the reverse, because some of the DF21+ guys have already tested P314.2-.
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« Reply #74 on: September 10, 2011, 03:43:39 PM »

I was informed recently that DF5 is downstream of DF25. Maybe you all knew that, but I did not.

It's hard to keep up with all of the new SNPs coming at us now.

Remember when so many of us were "R1b1c" (R-M269) and some folks were telling us that was it, there were no more SNPs to be discovered?
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