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Author Topic: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21  (Read 7140 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: July 20, 2011, 11:40:33 PM »

Some DF21 results came in.

DF21+
f155347___ Hamilton ________________ R-L21/DF21*______ 1722___________ EE764___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim
f20437____ Reynolds_________________ R-L21/DF21/DF5___ 1014-A_________ S5Y63___ zzzUnkOrigin
f75621____ Harriss__________________ R-L21/DF21/DF5___ zzUnassigned___ 6KDDZ___ England, South East, Oxfordshire, Burford
[/quote]

The early research has confirmed that DF5 is downstream of DF21 so I'm counting them.

I've got Hamilton at a GD of 15 over 67 from Harriss and 18 over 67 from Reynolds. I've got Harriss as a GD of 17 from Reynolds so even DF5 is of pretty good age. DF21 could easily be two thousand years old.

I'm using modified infinite allele methods on multi-copy markers so those GD's are somewhat on the conservative side.

This is just a thought, but I wonder if we should send an email blast out to L21* folks. DF21, P314.2 and L513 are quite old so each of them should be evaluated for R-L21* folks?

I can't see much of any common off-modal STRs for between the DF21 folks. I think P314.2 only has one common off-modal STR and the same for L513 so although they are not quite as wide-open, just about anyone could have them.

All three of these SNP subclades have GDs of up into the 20's within the groups. They are old.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 11:43:40 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
rms2
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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2011, 01:45:51 AM »

I saw the result for Hamilton, 155347, but not for Reynolds and Harriss, since they aren't members of the R-L21 Plus Project.

Guess I could send out a bulk email on DF21, L513, and P314.2. We've already had a fair number of negatives on those last two and five DF21 negatives this evening.

I have to find a way to word the email so that I am not inundated with emails asking how likely the writer is to be positive for this or that.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 01:49:01 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2011, 02:03:24 AM »

Okay. I just sent out a bulk email to the L21* members of the R-L21 Plus Project asking them to consider testing for DF21, L513, and P314.2. It will probably go out later this morning Houston time, after the folks at FTDNA approve it.

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saphorr
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« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2011, 04:24:04 PM »

I've got Hamilton at a GD of 15 over 67 from Harriss and 18 over 67 from Reynolds. I've got Harriss as a GD of 17 from Reynolds so even DF5 is of pretty good age. DF21 could easily be two thousand years old.

I'm using modified infinite allele methods on multi-copy markers so those GD's are somewhat on the conservative side.

I am Hamilton 155347.  If you want an even more precise estimate you should be able to get 111-marker data for all three of us.

I have 111 markers tested and Harriss has 111-marker data available on the British Isles Project results page.  I can't find any STR data for Reynolds easily, but I strongly suspect he's tested to 111 markers as well.

At the very least, you can do a ySearch comparison between EE764, S5Y63, and 6KDDZ and you'll see we compare at 95 markers, which I think may be all the markers out of the 111-marker set that ySearch can store.

All that said I think what we'll need to get a good estimate is not more markers but more people :).  Now that we know I'm DF21* I am absolutely certain the following four 67-marker profiles are as well, since they are close STR matches and Hamiltons:

MWBDQ
6K6Y6
XF3GE
XFF5T

It may bias your dataset to throw in so many Hamiltons but it's surely better than having just me.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 03:16:04 PM by saphorr » Logged
Jdean
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« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2011, 07:11:57 PM »

I have 111 markers tester and Harriss has 111-marker data available on the British Isles Project results page.  I can't find any STR data for Reynolds easily, but I strongly suspect he's tested to 111 markers as well.

You'll find Reynolds in the WTY project, kit no. 20437, DF5 was found via that project so isn't listed amongst his SNPs
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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2011, 07:29:27 PM »

Well, the "more people" wish should be fulfilled shortly. A bunch of orders for DF21 (and L513 and P314.2) have come in.

We'll know more in a month or so (maybe sooner, I hope).
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rms2
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« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2011, 10:27:49 AM »

What do you all know about DF21?

I got an email from someone who mentioned DF21 as "pre-M222".

Have any M222+ guys been tested for DF21? Is DF21 thought to be between L21 and M222 on the tree?
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Jdean
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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2011, 03:12:05 PM »

What do you all know about DF21?

I got an email from someone who mentioned DF21 as "pre-M222".

Have any M222+ guys been tested for DF21? Is DF21 thought to be between L21 and M222 on the tree?


I think this person’s getting confused with DF23, easily done with the profusion of new SNPs

1000 Genomes data analsis
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rms2
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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2011, 05:17:17 PM »

What do you all know about DF21?

I got an email from someone who mentioned DF21 as "pre-M222".

Have any M222+ guys been tested for DF21? Is DF21 thought to be between L21 and M222 on the tree?


I think this person’s getting confused with DF23, easily done with the profusion of new SNPs

1000 Genomes data analsis


Ah, I see.

So, I assume both M222+ and L21+ x M222 have tested positive for DF23, since it is said to be between L21 and M222. Right?

If so, that one might stir some interest.

From what I can tell, FTDNA is not offering it yet. At least, a search of the Advanced Orders menu didn't turn it up.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 05:20:00 PM by rms2 » Logged

Jdean
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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2011, 06:55:25 PM »

Ah, I see.

So, I assume both M222+ and L21+ x M222 have tested positive for DF23, since it is said to be between L21 and M222. Right?

If so, that one might stir some interest.

From what I can tell, FTDNA is not offering it yet. At least, a search of the Advanced Orders menu didn't turn it up.
I can't imagine they'll hang around, as you say interest should be high with this one.
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« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2011, 09:18:05 PM »

We got our second DF21+ result in the R-L21 Plus Project this evening, so I created an R-DF21 category. There are two project members in it thus far: Hamilton (mentioned above) and the newest DF21+, Brooks, kit 48674 (Ysearch 7YQV5).

Brooks' mdka came from Yorkshire.
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cmblandford
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« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2011, 03:21:38 PM »

Brooks is my "fellow outlier" on the Irish Type III Alex Williamson L-21 tree.  We are the only ones grouped with Irish Typer III that are L226-.  My DF21 test is in progress. 
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Y-DNA:  R-DF13*


Surname Project:  Blandford

Kit:  ft115893   Ysearch:  EYSPZ


Earliest Known Ancestor:  Thomas Blanford; Dorset, England; born 1648


rms2
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« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2011, 01:27:35 PM »

I just ordered DF21 a few minutes ago. I have no idea whether the result will be DF21+ or DF21-.

"We'll see," said the blind man.
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rms2
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« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2011, 09:30:17 PM »

I'm just blabbing because I feel like blabbing. I have no idea what my DF21 test result will be, other than either DF21+ or DF21-, but I just read on the Background page of the DF21 Project that one of the 1000 Genomes Project test subjects who got a DF5+ result (and DF5 is downstream of DF21) was from Cornwall in England. Hmmm . . . my surname is very common in Cornwall; it's particularly common in Truro.

That could be meaningless. I don't know that my immigrant ancestor came from Cornwall, and, even if he did, one 1000 Genomes test result doesn't mean that all or even most Cornishmen are DF21+.

Still, I'm grasping for clues . . .

It's kind of fun.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2011, 11:39:56 PM »

What do you all know about DF21?

I got an email from someone who mentioned DF21 as "pre-M222".

Have any M222+ guys been tested for DF21? Is DF21 thought to be between L21 and M222 on the tree?
I think this person’s getting confused with DF23, easily done with the profusion of new SNPs
My understanding is the same as Jdean's.  DF23, not DF21, has been found in both an M222+ and M222- person.  Testing companies haven't declared this but this what researchers think they've seen in the various genome studies.

DF21 might be upstream of something big though... L226. That's what CMBlandford was talking about.  I don't know, there are a couple of common off-modal markers between the L226+ folks and the DF21+ guy who we know is L226-.
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Jdean
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« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2011, 04:46:15 AM »

My understanding is the same as Jdean's.  DF23, not DF21, has been found in both an M222+ and M222- person.  Testing companies haven't declared this but this what researchers think they've seen in the various genome studies.

DF21 might be upstream of something big though... L226. That's what CMBlandford was talking about.  I don't know, there are a couple of common off-modal markers between the L226+ folks and the DF21+ guy who we know is L226-.

I think the pending DF21 test for an R-L226+ chap is the one to watch at the moment, it would be extremely interesting if those two SNPs get tied up together.

Of course we would probably have to go through the 'British SNP' malarkey again but who knows maybe DF21 will turn out to be an ancient British marker though I doubt it :)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 04:51:34 AM by Jdean » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2011, 10:20:45 AM »

I look forward to the day when accurate test results can be had in a few days or perhaps a few hours.

Waiting is one of the big downsides to this hobby.
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Jdean
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« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2011, 11:18:14 AM »

I look forward to the day when accurate test results can be had in a few days or perhaps a few hours.

Waiting is one of the big downsides to this hobby.

It can be done, FTDNA seem to be returning results for Z18 (new one under U106) quite literally within a couple of days but I had to wait the full 6 weeks for my DF21.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2011, 04:53:25 PM »

I look forward to the day when accurate test results can be had in a few days or perhaps a few hours.

Waiting is one of the big downsides to this hobby.

It can be done, FTDNA seem to be returning results for Z18 (new one under U106) quite literally within a couple of days but I had to wait the full 6 weeks for my DF21.

My DF19 order is now past the six week estimated date and hence overdue. Some of the L238 orders were several months overdue at one point, and some may well still be. Yet many of the Z196 orders were processed at a fairly rapid rate. I have no idea how FTDNA determines the order they test these new SNPs. It is certainly mystifying.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2011, 11:30:25 PM »

A bunch of DF21 results came in. I've got up to 18 DF21+ people, including the DF5+ folks.
DF21 is significant.
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« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2011, 12:49:50 AM »

A bunch of DF21 results came in. I've got up to 18 DF21+ people, including the DF5+ folks.
DF21 is significant.

Only 13 of them are in the R-L21 Plus Project, one of them DF5+.

It's looking very Isles-ish, but that could just be due, as usual, to a lack of continental test subjects.

A couple of our Spanish guys got DF21 results tonight, though, but both of them were negative.

I'm still waiting for my result.
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rms2
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« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2011, 12:53:48 AM »

A bunch of DF21 results came in. I've got up to 18 DF21+ people, including the DF5+ folks.
DF21 is significant.

Only 13 of them are in the R-L21 Plus Project, one of them DF5+.

It's looking very Isles-ish, but that could just be due, as usual, to a lack of continental test subjects.

A couple of our Spanish guys got DF21 results tonight, though, but both of them were negative.

I'm still waiting for my result.


Oh, and one German got his DF21 result, too, but it was also negative.
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« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2011, 07:31:17 AM »

Unless I miscounted, there were 61 new DF21 results in the R-L21 Plus Project last evening, with 10 positive and 51 negative. That's 16% positive, 84% negative. (There was one additional DF21 result - positive - but it was for a man who had already tested DF5+ and so was known to be DF21+ before last night's results came in.)

All of the positives either have ancestry in the British Isles or British Isles surnames.

There were just three continental results - two Spaniards and one German - and they were negative. There was one who is not sure of his European ancestry but whose surname appears to be French. He was also negative.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 07:40:52 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2011, 06:39:42 PM »

A few more DF21 results have come in, and there may be more before the evening is over. Anyway, one of those that has come in is for another continental, a Norwegian this time, and he is DF21-.

So, thus far, DF21 is 0 for 4 when it comes to continental Europeans.
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Jdean
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« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2011, 06:44:36 PM »

A few more DF21 results have come in, and there may be more before the evening is over. Anyway, one of those that has come in is for another continental, a Norwegian this time, and he is DF21-.

So, thus far, DF21 is 0 for 4 when it comes to continental Europeans.

Interestingly it has been reported over on DNA-Forums that a Little Scots Cluster chap is DF21+ whilst somebody who's Scots Modal is neg.
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