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Maliclavelli
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« on: September 06, 2011, 12:09:33 PM »

U152 Frequencies Worldwide by Tibor Fehér

What wouldn’t someone do in order to go against Italy? Someone spends his time in a silly hobby like to meter variance. Take the Attila’s (named “the Scourge of God”) follower, Fehér Tibor. How much of his time he wasted!
Poland, with a percentage of R-U152 of 3,6%, with only 5 haplotypes, would get a variance of 3,00, and Italy, with the highest percentage of R-U152 all over the world, with the highest number of haplotypes, would get a variance lower than Poland.
But has Mr Fehér nothing more useful to do?
Apart the fact that any haplotype, for my rules ( 1: mutations around the modal, 2: convergence to the modal as time passes, 3: clusters formed when a mutation goes for the tangent), doesn’t correspond automatically to its ancientness, it is clear that the countries with more haplotypes, which should be a merit, tends to get less variance just for my rules I listed above.

Take DYS439, a pretty fast mutating marker. Poland has the values 10,12,12,13,13. Then, assuming that the modal is 12 (but modal of what?) = 4 mutations, that carry 0,8 of the whole variance of 3,00. And the value 11 where has gone? Probably these haplotypes aren’t Polish from the beginning, but come from elsewhere.
Central Italy gets the values 10,11,12,13,14 with 10 mutations on 32 (!) haplotypes, then they carry 0,3125 of the whole variance. Probably these haplotypes are Italian from the beginning, have all the values on the range 10-14 etc. etc.
Have Fehér nothing more useful to do?
Let him find many R-U152* in his country (or in Poland)!
So far the final of the 1000 Genomes Project Trophy has already been played: Italy strikes Great Britain 3 to 1, but of course R-U152 isn’t the core for Englishmen. The other countries have neither played.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 07:03:08 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2011, 07:24:10 PM »

I thank my friend Giuseppe Belgieri for having signalled this. Mr Fehér is “U152+ Z36+ L671+ (Z37 Z38 Z39 Z54 Z67 Z70 Z143 not tested)”. In 1000 Genomes project the SNPs downstream Z36 have been found only amongst Tuscans. Perhaps Mr Fehér, more than a descendant of Attila, comes from Dante, Petrarca, Boccaccio, Giotto, Masaccio, Leonardo, Michelangelo, Galilei and hundred of other similar vandals, if it doesn’t disgust him.
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Maliclavelli


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1790Noll
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« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2011, 08:28:54 AM »

Gioiello,
do you always have your Tuscan humor.
But i think.. if we go back in time we can all be descended from Roman legionaries, or Huns, etc..
Tibor is very different from other U152+ Z36+ so anything is possible. .
But I remember that Hungary was recolonized after the expulsion of the Ottomans ..
I do not know how many of the ancient inhabitants are actually survived the Turkish conquest ..
Easiest in Transylvania?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2011, 09:38:50 AM »

I’d be very glad that Roman legionaries were at the origin of all these descendants, but, unfortunately, I think we haven’t enough elements to say that. You know that Republican Armies were above all Roman or from Italic Allied, but Imperial Armies were composed with all the peoples of the Empire, and you know that many (also Englishmen who are G2a3b1 etc.) would prefer every peoples, Sarmatians Circassians, etc., than Romans, just when G-L497* seems just Etruscan then Italic.
It seemed to me that the tree of R-U152 come out from the 1000 Genomes Project were enough clear:
1)   R-U152* was born in Central-North Italy
2)   Z36 and Z42/Z43, the most ancient, were above all Italian
3)   perhaps L2 born out of Italy and in part returned to Italy with many immigrations (Celts, Germans, etc.)

But you know that there is a great work by the R-U152 group in testing this and that to demonstrate that Z36, for instance, is diffused in many countries, but, I’d say, even though it were born in Italy, of course after migrated to Central and North Europe, just to remember my theory of the Italian refugium. As you see data can be interpreted.
It seemed to me that, being the persons of the 1000 Genomes Project chosen by chance, that the little Tuscany had expressed all those R-U152-s and the most ancient were meaningful, but it seems it doesn’t.
But before saying that Fehér is Z36 let’s wait. He must be tested for the SNPs around Z37 and Z40, those positive for Tuscans, and the Z36* found by 1000 Genomes Project were only South Americans, those Spaniards who were the first and most ancient immigrants from Italy, and I am thinking to very ancient times, to the first diffusion from agriculturalist by sea from Grotta delle Arene Candide, then 7500 BC, or, better, from the diffusion of Ligurians to Provence and Spain.
Certainly the haplotype of Fehér is very interesting, above all for its DYS392=10 and probably the unique value like this is that of an R-U152 from Crete. Rich was saying on another thread that he agree with me on the fact that the Cretan and Greek R-U152-s are above all of Venetian origin, lacking many places of Greece this haplogroup and being present only in others where happened the Venetian colonization and certainly if we did find this value in Italy this hypothesis would be more reliable, but it could be also another explication, i.e. the same ancient diffusion from the Italian Refugium in very ancient times. Apart this value, the Cretan and the Hungarian haplotypes are very different and probably, if they have the same origin, it is very ancient.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 11:55:57 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2011, 06:54:01 AM »

Fehér Tibor was so kind as to answer me from the place to me forbidden:

“I ordered the additional sub-Z36 SNPs.
Let's see if I am the descendant of Dante, Petrarca and Boccaccia”.

“Boccaccia” in Italian is another thing (grimace) and one I know is on the site where Tibor writes.
I don’t know if he will be a descendant of Dante et alii, certainly he isn’t of Machiavelli, because he is an ancestor of mine only.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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