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Author Topic: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)  (Read 13845 times)
Humanist
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« Reply #100 on: September 17, 2011, 08:53:42 PM »

I am thinking more towards G Hg . . .

I just noticed that back on 08 July Mark correctly predicted that Ötzi would be some kind of G, so he gets the grand prize: the internet warmth of all our smiles. ;-)

Nice work, Mark.

Good work, mjost. 

How about this fella's prognostication?  ;)

Quote
"Ötzi’s secrets about to be revealed"

Reply #46 on: August 05, 2010, 08:31:59 AM »
      
Humanist

Perhaps Oetzi is a G2a man.  :)  The Tirol is fertile territory for G2a men.  At least relatively speaking with regard to its general frequency among the European nations.

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=9550.msg119728#msg119728
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« Reply #101 on: September 18, 2011, 08:28:31 AM »

Sorry, Humanist. I should have picked up on that. Guess I missed it because the post was on a different thread.

You called it right down to the third level (G2a).

Good work!
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 08:34:02 AM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #102 on: September 19, 2011, 02:33:39 PM »

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the oldest R1b in Europe that we know about is that single R1b individual from the Lichtenstein Cave discovery, circa 1,000 BC.

After that, I believe the bodies from the Aldaieta cemetery in the Basque country in Spain are the oldest, but they date from the early medieval period (6th century, I think).

Next in age come the bodies of the warriors in the cave in Ergolding in Bavaria from the 7th century.

Does anyone know of any older R1b in Europe? I haven't heard of any.

So, the oldest known R1b in Europe dates from the Bronze Age. After that, we have a few from the early medieval period, and that's it.

Of course, that doesn't mean there isn't some older stuff out there waiting to be found (or waiting for test results).
What about ancient DNA of R1b anywhere?  From what I've seen of the STR values, King Tut's Y DNA is almost definitely R-M269. I think he's circa 1300 BC so that would be the oldest I know of.  Of course, that's Egypt.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 02:34:44 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #103 on: September 19, 2011, 06:21:53 PM »

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the oldest R1b in Europe that we know about is that single R1b individual from the Lichtenstein Cave discovery, circa 1,000 BC.

After that, I believe the bodies from the Aldaieta cemetery in the Basque country in Spain are the oldest, but they date from the early medieval period (6th century, I think).

Next in age come the bodies of the warriors in the cave in Ergolding in Bavaria from the 7th century.

Does anyone know of any older R1b in Europe? I haven't heard of any.

So, the oldest known R1b in Europe dates from the Bronze Age. After that, we have a few from the early medieval period, and that's it.

Of course, that doesn't mean there isn't some older stuff out there waiting to be found (or waiting for test results).
What about ancient DNA of R1b anywhere?  From what I've seen of the STR values, King Tut's Y DNA is almost definitely R-M269. I think he's circa 1300 BC so that would be the oldest I know of.  Of course, that's Egypt.

Yeah, I was thinking of Europe really, and, besides that, no one is really sure about that alleged Tut result. It was based on something in the background of a video, as I recall, and might not have been Tut's actual information. Maybe someone else recalls more of the details, but I do remember there is some doubt involved.

But you're right; if Tut is really R1b, that would be the oldest result we have, and it's Bronze Age, as well.
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Humanist
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« Reply #104 on: September 19, 2011, 08:49:39 PM »

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the oldest R1b in Europe that we know about is that single R1b individual from the Lichtenstein Cave discovery, circa 1,000 BC.

After that, I believe the bodies from the Aldaieta cemetery in the Basque country in Spain are the oldest, but they date from the early medieval period (6th century, I think).

Next in age come the bodies of the warriors in the cave in Ergolding in Bavaria from the 7th century.

Does anyone know of any older R1b in Europe? I haven't heard of any.

So, the oldest known R1b in Europe dates from the Bronze Age. After that, we have a few from the early medieval period, and that's it.

Of course, that doesn't mean there isn't some older stuff out there waiting to be found (or waiting for test results).
What about ancient DNA of R1b anywhere?  From what I've seen of the STR values, King Tut's Y DNA is almost definitely R-M269. I think he's circa 1300 BC so that would be the oldest I know of.  Of course, that's Egypt.

If he is indeed R-M269.  Although Egyptian, there is the possibility his line was Hyksos or Hittite.  Mitanni/Hurrians and Egyptians were marrying off their women to one another for generations.  Granted, women are one thing, men are another.  But, the relationship between two two kingdoms was close.  Nefertiti herself, it is possible, was of at least part Mitanni/Hurrian origin.

http://nabataea.net/EdomMap4.gif 
http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/images/hyksosmap.gif
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 08:50:55 PM by Humanist » Logged

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« Reply #105 on: September 26, 2011, 04:11:43 PM »

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the oldest R1b in Europe that we know about is that single R1b individual from the Lichtenstein Cave discovery, circa 1,000 BC.

After that, I believe the bodies from the Aldaieta cemetery in the Basque country in Spain are the oldest, but they date from the early medieval period (6th century, I think).

Next in age come the bodies of the warriors in the cave in Ergolding in Bavaria from the 7th century.

Does anyone know of any older R1b in Europe? I haven't heard of any.

So, the oldest known R1b in Europe dates from the Bronze Age. After that, we have a few from the early medieval period, and that's it.

Of course, that doesn't mean there isn't some older stuff out there waiting to be found (or waiting for test results).

Correct.  It is interesting that the finds for Hg G are starting to cluster around the Neolithic to Copper age (LBK, Treilles, and maybe Otzi/Remedello).  Although one of the Ergolding Merovingians was G which is an outlier to this emerging pattern or even a migration period descendant.  R1b is showing up Bronze age and later, which is also in line with the STR variance based calculations.  
Maybe there is value in the molecular clock concept and STR variance after all.

Although we have no scientific sampling of ancient Y DNA, at least for Hg G we have a bit of pattern developing.
Quote from: Dienekes
Ötzi, the Tyrolean Iceman belonged to Y-haplogroup G2a4.
We now have G2a3 from Neolithic Linearbandkeramik in Derenburg and G2a in Treilles in addition to Ötzi from the Alps. G2a folk got around.

For R1b this may be not be satisfying for a while. The answer to RMS's question "Does anyone know of any older R1b in Europe?" is NO but lack of evidence is not evidence of absence. I think the key when we find ancient R1b is not that it is R1b but what subclade.  There is a big difference between finding R-L23* and R-P312 or R-M222.


Again, he is not European, but Egypt is close. King Tutankhamun is the earliest probably R-M269 guy out there.
Quote from: Jacques P Beaugrand
Assuming that TUTANKHAMON's signature is
DYS393=13 DYS390=24 DYS19=14 DYS391=11 DYS385A=11 DYS385B=14
DYS439=10 DYS389I=13 DYS392=13 DYS389II=30 DYS458=16 DYS437=14
DYS448=19 GATAH4=10 DYS456=15 DYS438=12 DYS635=23

and yhg=R1b1a2

in the French Heritage DNA project some rather close matches are found:

one on 10/10 shared markers (for which they were both tested) with kit#
102715 FONTAINE
and two others  13/16 #173139 DESLEY and #175161 SHAPIRO (of French-canadian
descent, adopted)

and naturally the TREMBLAYs  are not very far with 8/10.

Tutankhamon's signature can be compared here http://bit.ly/ndWARw

Amusing  ...

Jacques B.

A few R-P312 guys on the list.  I just think Tut's signature appears WAMHish.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #106 on: October 17, 2011, 09:24:19 PM »

From “Dienekes’ Anthropology blog”


Even though Ötzi came out a Caucasian in his autosomal data, would your hypothesis be demonstrated? I think not. We should have the data of those who killed him and of others: they probably considered him a foreigner, an outcast. It is possible that he was a Caucasian metalworker migrated to Italian ores, even though the link of the merchants of obsidian from the Aegean Sea (and Italy) from 15000YBP should be kept in mind, then the presence of G2a in Western Europe from very ancient times, and one centre of diffusion of this haplogroup is in Sardinia and it isn’t said that the Caucasus were its place of origin, even though now, that we have mt K3 besides K1 and K2 , and K3 is from Caucasus, it is possible that the K* of Ötzi was from Caucasus more than from Western Europe (even though I think that K, from U8b/K, is clearly from Western Europe in its origin).
I think having demonstrated in my postings that the supposed Middle Eastern mt-haplogroup like R0a, HV4, HV1a’b’c etc. come probably from Italy (and between the LGM and the Younger Dryas).
And what will you say if Ötzi’s autosomal were linked to Sardinians or Tuscans and not to Caucasians?

Dienekes says: “It seems that my prediction that the Iceman will turn out to be Mediterranean in terms of his autosomal genetic components was right!”

“he is more related to people living in southern Europe today than to those in North Africa or the Middle East, with close connections to geographically isolated modern populations in Sardinia, Sicily, and the Iberian Peninsula”

This isn’t “Mediterranean” and less “Greek”: this is Italian, those Italians from Sardinia, Tuscany and Liguria who peopled like agriculturalists (cultural ones and not demic from Middle East) from 7500 YBP also Spain.

If there is someone whose hypotheses are winning is me, with all the respect and admiration I have always had for you.

And, please, let’s stop to consider Sicilians something else from Italians, because they maintain the  Y and mt of the most ancient Italians.

Dienekes’ answer:
This isn’t “Mediterranean” and less “Greek”: this is Italian, those Italians from Sardinia, Tuscany and Liguria who peopled like agriculturalists (cultural ones and not demic from Middle East) from 7500 YBP also Spain.

We'll have to see the details. First of all, no one said anything about "Greek", so stop hallucinating. Second, Sardinia and Sicily are Mediterranean islands, and they are not part of the Italian peninsula. Third, it may suck for your Italian uber-refugium theory that a prehistoric North Italian has links to Sardinians, Sicilians, and Iberians, but apparently not Tuscans. I guess you'll have to modify your theories.
Monday, October 17, 2011


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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #107 on: October 18, 2011, 03:34:15 AM »

“The connection is that they (meaning Iberian isolates, today) are less "tainted" by later migrations - first agriculturalists from Anatolia, cattle farming IE people from the north, seafarers from the Levant and Greece, and multi-culti introduced by Romans”.

Someone thinks to me like an Italocentric person.
What should we think about “eurologist”?

1)   “first agriculturalists” came from Anatolia (there are papers that demonstrate that they came from Italy 7500 YBP by sea, and that they were Italians become agriculturalists)
2)   “cattle farming IE people from the north”:  others think from East. My positions is that IE is linked to Etruscan-Rhaetian-Camun and was formed in Central Europe, but they came out from the Italian refugium
3)   “seafarers from the Levant and Greece”: opposite fans counted twice or more those hg. T etc.
4)   Romans of course introduced only multicultural persons and not themselves….

But why “eurologist”? “Deutsche-un-logiker” would be better.
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« Reply #108 on: October 23, 2011, 06:07:41 AM »

The big "Mummies from the Ice" conference in Bolzano, Italy, took place this past Thursday through Saturday (20-22 October 2011). Has anyone heard any news? They were supposed to release Ötzi's entire genome. It was probably pretty fascinating.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 06:08:19 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #109 on: October 23, 2011, 06:47:12 AM »

Dienekes says: "Yesterday, I twitted in exasperation that Otzi's genome, which must have been available in at least some sort of draft form since at least the beginning of this year, has been under lock and key, presumably because of the need to make a big splash with the simultaneous Bolzano conference, TV special, likely imminent journal publication, and all the media stories that will follow".
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« Reply #110 on: October 23, 2011, 06:55:31 AM »

I found the conference,but I couldn't find any results.


2nd BOLZANO MUMMY CONGRESS - OCTOBER 20th - 22nd 2011
                                       MUMMIES FROM THE ICE

http://www.eurac.eu/en/research/institutes/iceman/Activities/mummycongress/2011/pages/Programme.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 06:56:18 AM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #111 on: October 23, 2011, 07:02:14 AM »

I found the conference,but I couldn't find any results.


2nd BOLZANO MUMMY CONGRESS - OCTOBER 20th - 22nd 2011
                                       MUMMIES FROM THE ICE

http://www.eurac.eu/en/research/institutes/iceman/Activities/mummycongress/2011/pages/Programme.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

Looks like it was an interesting conference.

Still we peasants wait for news.
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« Reply #112 on: October 29, 2011, 09:08:17 AM »

The Bolanza Mummy conference came and went without the publication of Otzi's genome. This is a great disappointment. Dienekes says:

"The 90% of the Iceman genome that has been sequenced will remain locked up. This will ensure that some of the "100 Ötzi researchers" will have the time to write their papers without fear of competition, and that the journals that will publish them will have the exclusivity necessary to make a profit. Only losers: (a) the public in several nations, which makes possible, directly or indirectly this type of research, and (b) Science, which must take second place behind more ephemeral concerns."

What we do know from the conference is:

"There was broad agreement at the Bolzano Congress about the last hour of his life. Albert Zink, Head of the Institute for Mummy Research at EURAC, reports as follows about the circumstances of the Iceman's death: "He felt safe enough to take a break, and settled down to a copious meal. While thus resting, he was attacked, shot with an arrow and left for dead." There was no evidence pointing to a possible burial as some scientists have suggested in the past. "The position of the mummified body with his arm pointing obliquely upwards, the lack of any piles of stones or other features which often accompany burial sites, runs counter to the burial theory," he continues."

We do know that his haplogroup is G2A4 and is closest to the Sardinian signature. Dienekes has an interesting analysis on the uniqueness of Sardinian DNA this week.

"There is, however, one population that stands as an outlier against the backdrop of discontinuity: Sardinians. Ghirotto et al. inferred population continuity in Sardinian mtDNA at least until the Bronze Age. Stories about the Tyrolean Iceman, confirmed in the NOVA TV documentary suggest that a 5,000-year old denizen of Central Europe was genetically closest to Sardinians."

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/

Lets hope that the reason for the delay in publishing Otzi's genome is due to the fact that spectacular disoveries have been made which require further detailed research, rather than some PR exercise.
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Heber


 
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« Reply #113 on: October 29, 2011, 09:57:38 AM »

We're lucky Dr. Vigl let his y haplogroup slip!
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« Reply #114 on: October 29, 2011, 10:50:12 AM »

By the way, that is an interesting post at Dienekes' blog: October 28, 2011,
"Sardinian continuity against a backdrop of European discontinuity".

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/

Quote
If I had to guess, I would propose that most extant Europeans will be discovered to be a 2-way West Asian/Ancestral European mix, just as most South Asians are a simple West Asian/Ancestral South Indian mix. In both cases, the indigenous component is no longer in existence and the South Asian/Atlantic_Baltic components that emerge in ADMIXTURE analyses represent a composite of the aboriginal component with the introduced West Asian one. And, like in India, some populations will be discovered to be "off-cline" by admixture with different elements: in Europe these will be Paleo-Mediterraneans like the Iceman, an element maximally preserved in modern Sardinians, as well as the East Eurasian-influenced populations at the North-Eastern side of the continent.

I have been saying something similar since I first got into genetic genealogy back in 2006. I never accepted the old, "R1b Cro-Magnon" scenario.

I wouldn't say "the indigenous component is no longer in existence", although some of it probably no longer exists, except in autosomal form. However, I do think some indigenous y and mtDNA haplogroups still exist in Europe but in much reduced, vestigial form. They are among the small, seemingly odd clades one finds here and there among persons of European ancestry.

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« Reply #115 on: October 29, 2011, 12:27:07 PM »

Before we knew Ötzi’s haplogroup, of course we bet about it and I hoped it had come out an R1b which would have resolved our questions, but I still said that I’d have been glad of whichever would have demonstrated that the calculations about the ancientness of the haplogroups would have been demonstrated wrong. This has happened.
At the news it was G2a4, many thought to a recent introgression from Caucasus. I said hg. G is very ancient in Italy and one centre of diffusion to all Western Europe is in Sardinia. Now nobody thinks that Ötzi is a recent immigrant from Caucasus.
After Mister Tyrolean announced that he matches closer than other peoples Sardinians, Sicilians and Iberians (isolate populations). Dienekes said they weren’t “Italians”, but Mediterranean Islanders. Dienekes wrote under a posting of his about Ötzi “Austria” and not Italy like I think everybody should write.

I don’t like particularly Maju and his Basquism nor Dienekes and his Greekism (and they of course are free to not like my Italianism, even though Maju is 25% Italian and Dienekes, if he is whom I think, even much more, and they are free to not publish my posts: their blogs are theirs and they do what they like), but it seems to me that Maju (who of course like me believes in an ancient presence of R1b in Western Europe: he probably in Iberia and I in Italy) has said some important things in his reply to Dienekes.

“I do not think that is possible. If in South Asia (a perfectly comparable case, as you say well) the ancestral component (ASI) is still clearly apparent, as well as the ASI-ANI duality, why don't we see anything like that in Europe?
The reason is that there has NOT been any significant West Asian immigration with Neolithic. And therefore the components we see (not always exactly the same but with tendency to repeat across studies) are actually pre-Neolithic stuff, with the West Asian component still apparent as such West Asian (and Red Sea) components.
These still make up (using your K=11 analysis) 44% in South Italy, 40% among Greeks, 36% in Central Italy, 30% among Tuscans, 24% among Romanians, 16% in North Italy, etc.
Alternatively, you seem to be able to discern that the North European component is closes to that of West Asia. Much closer than the Mediterranean or even the Red Sea component. This offers another interesting possibility: that North Europe was the part of Europe which was actually colonized by (blondish?) people from Turkey and such.
I'd rather think this only indicates maybe a second Paleolithic layer but that is what your own analysis has to offer - and not what you are saying.
Sardinians would then be 100% of another component, which may or not have arrived from the East (it's rare in West Asia, excepting Cyprus) and that we could describe as Greco-Italian for the two regions that have it above 30% (although you use the term "Mediterranean" instead).
But I do not dare to say more because I really do not like too much your analysis strategy, discarding important European components and retaining once and again exotic pointless components from Africa and East Asia”
Probably the answer is yet in the Dienekes’ analysis:

“At K=10 […]as well as a Sardinian-Basque one:
[150,] "O_Italian_D" "39.5"
[151,] "C_Italian_D" "40.4"
[152,] "French_D" "41.4"
[153,] "French" "41.5"
[154,] "N_Italian_D" "43.1"
[155,] "Tuscan" "43.5"
[156,] "TSI" "43.7"
[157,] " Portuguese_D" "46.2"
[158,] "North_Italian" "47.2"
[159,] "Spanish_D" "51.1"
[160,] "Spaniards" "51.2"
[161,] "IBS" "51.8"
[162,] "Basque_D" "68"
[163,] "French_Basque" "69.3"
[164,] "Sardinian" "77"

Not only I think having demonstrated that many mt haplogroups (R0a, HV1a’b’c, HV4) are born in Italy and diffused till Arabia, and these are the ancestral to all European haplogroups with U/K, but I am always waiting that an R1b will come out from ancient Europe: the presence of it, from R-M207 to R1b1 to its subclades and some decisive knots (R-L23+/L150-, R-L51+), indicates that here is its origin. Of course every haplogroup has a wide diffusion specially in its oldest subclades.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 01:03:34 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #116 on: November 01, 2011, 11:56:35 AM »

More  G2A Ancient DNA has been found in Iberia.

Ancient DNA suggests the leading role played by men in the Neolithic dissemination
Marie Lacan et al.
"Maternal haplogroups found are consistent with pre-Neolithic settlement, whereas the Y-chromosomal analyses permitted confirmation of the existence in Spain approximately 7,000 y ago of two haplogroups previously associated with the Neolithic transition: G2a and E1b1b1a1b.

Dienekes has commented on it on his blog:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/11/y-haplogroups-e-v13-and-g2a-in.html

"The discovery of G2a is added to the finds from Treilles, Derenburg, and the Alps. It is now virtually certain that the Neolithic transition in much of Europe, both inland, and coastal involved G2a-bearing men."

"The discovery of E-V13 in Spain is unexpected on a number of different reasons: there is relatively little of it there now; it had previously been associated with the inland route of the spread of agriculture, as well as the spread of the Greeks to Sicily and Provence, or Roman soldiers at a much later date. "

"While this Neolithic E-V13 may well have come from the Balkans, and the common ancestor of the very uniform present-day Balkan cluster may have lived after this Spanish find, it is now certain that E-V13 was established in Europe long before the Bronze Age. This highlights the need to avoid Y-STR based calculations on modern populations for inferring patterns of ancient history, and not to conflate TMRCAs with "dates of arrival": "In short: a particular TMRCA is consistent with either the arrival of the lineage long before and long after the TMRCA in a particular geographical area."

"At least for now, three of the major players of the European genetic landscape (E-V13, G2a, and I2a) have made their Neolithic appearance. Hopefully, as more ancient DNA is published, and even from later dates, more of them will turn up."

Does this mean that R1b is likley to be younger post neolithic expansion associated with Iron Age or Bell Beaker expansion? And where does this leave Myers and Busby older age estimates?
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« Reply #117 on: November 01, 2011, 02:58:11 PM »

Dienekes has commented on it on his blog...
"The discovery of E-V13 in Spain is unexpected on a number of different reasons: there is relatively little of it there now; it had previously been associated with the inland route of the spread of agriculture, as well as the spread of the Greeks to Sicily and Provence, or Roman soldiers at a much later date. "

"While this Neolithic E-V13 may well have come from the Balkans, and the common ancestor of the very uniform present-day Balkan cluster may have lived after this Spanish find, it is now certain that E-V13 was established in Europe long before the Bronze Age. This highlights the need to avoid Y-STR based calculations on modern populations for inferring patterns of ancient history, and not to conflate TMRCAs with "dates of arrival": "In short: a particular TMRCA is consistent with either the arrival of the lineage long before and long after the TMRCA in a particular geographical area."
Well, at least Dienekes is consistent in his feelings about STR variance when he said before "STRs #$#&!!!"

Good news is he is being more specific in relating to use of applying STR variance in comparing geographies. That is particularly legitimate, because one paragroup of a particular subclade in a particular country may (probably) not have a MRCA from that country as compared to the other country.

However, I didn't get the point why he is throwing in his two cents on STR variance related to the above.

Both E-V12* and E-V13 are found in Spain. See table at bottom of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_%28Y-DNA%29

Marko Heinila has the interclade TMRCA for E-V12 and E-V13 as 7.2K ybp.... umm... just about right for the Neolithic early advances to Iberia. That doesn't guarantee E-V12 and E-V13 came to Iberia during the Neolith but is added evidence that they could have.  It is evidence that they didn't come earlier than the Neolith.

Perhaps Dienekes was arguing against the badness of evolutionary mutation rates or something and was just throwing that in with the general badness of STRs. LOL
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« Reply #118 on: November 01, 2011, 06:52:47 PM »

Dienekes has commented on it on his blog...
"The discovery of E-V13 in Spain is unexpected on a number of different reasons: there is relatively little of it there now; it had previously been associated with the inland route of the spread of agriculture, as well as the spread of the Greeks to Sicily and Provence, or Roman soldiers at a much later date. "

"While this Neolithic E-V13 may well have come from the Balkans, and the common ancestor of the very uniform present-day Balkan cluster may have lived after this Spanish find, it is now certain that E-V13 was established in Europe long before the Bronze Age. This highlights the need to avoid Y-STR based calculations on modern populations for inferring patterns of ancient history, and not to conflate TMRCAs with "dates of arrival": "In short: a particular TMRCA is consistent with either the arrival of the lineage long before and long after the TMRCA in a particular geographical area."
Well, at least Dienekes is consistent in his feelings about STR variance when he said before "STRs #$#&!!!"

Good news is he is being more specific in relating to use of applying STR variance in comparing geographies. That is particularly legitimate, because one paragroup of a particular subclade in a particular country may (probably) not have a MRCA from that country as compared to the other country.

However, I didn't get the point why he is throwing in his two cents on STR variance related to the above.

Both E-V12* and E-V13 are found in Spain. See table at bottom of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_%28Y-DNA%29

Marko Heinila has the interclade TMRCA for E-V12 and E-V13 as 7.2K ybp.... umm... just about right for the Neolithic early advances to Iberia. That doesn't guarantee E-V12 and E-V13 came to Iberia during the Neolith but is added evidence that they could have.  It is evidence that they didn't come earlier than the Neolith.

Perhaps Dienekes was arguing against the badness of evolutionary mutation rates or something and was just throwing that in with the general badness of STRs. LOL
Dienekes reply is that for E-V12 and E-V13 to be there in the Neolithic but to originate in the Near East they would have had to move very quickly to get to Spain.

I think that is a good point and I agree that E-V12 and E-V13's MRCA may well be older than 7.2K ybp.  However, the TMRCA interclade estimate does have a wide error range that would encompass the LBK, for example, or the Cardial Wares. The estimates are really "coalescence" ages, Ken N says, which is the age of expansion not really the MRCA.  Well, anyway, if Dienekes is saying TMRCAs are imprecise. I agree and he is correct. However, they do have a relative value at the least.
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« Reply #119 on: November 01, 2011, 07:48:22 PM »

More  G2A Ancient DNA has been found in Iberia.

Ancient DNA suggests the leading role played by men in the Neolithic dissemination
Marie Lacan et al.
"Maternal haplogroups found are consistent with pre-Neolithic settlement, whereas the Y-chromosomal analyses permitted confirmation of the existence in Spain approximately 7,000 y ago of two haplogroups previously associated with the Neolithic transition: G2a and E1b1b1a1b.

Dienekes has commented on it on his blog:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/11/y-haplogroups-e-v13-and-g2a-in.html

"The discovery of G2a is added to the finds from Treilles, Derenburg, and the Alps. It is now virtually certain that the Neolithic transition in much of Europe, both inland, and coastal involved G2a-bearing men."

"The discovery of E-V13 in Spain is unexpected on a number of different reasons: there is relatively little of it there now; it had previously been associated with the inland route of the spread of agriculture, as well as the spread of the Greeks to Sicily and Provence, or Roman soldiers at a much later date. "

"While this Neolithic E-V13 may well have come from the Balkans, and the common ancestor of the very uniform present-day Balkan cluster may have lived after this Spanish find, it is now certain that E-V13 was established in Europe long before the Bronze Age. This highlights the need to avoid Y-STR based calculations on modern populations for inferring patterns of ancient history, and not to conflate TMRCAs with "dates of arrival": "In short: a particular TMRCA is consistent with either the arrival of the lineage long before and long after the TMRCA in a particular geographical area."

"At least for now, three of the major players of the European genetic landscape (E-V13, G2a, and I2a) have made their Neolithic appearance. Hopefully, as more ancient DNA is published, and even from later dates, more of them will turn up."

Does this mean that R1b is likley to be younger post neolithic expansion associated with Iron Age or Bell Beaker expansion? And where does this leave Myers and Busby older age estimates?

Well, that is interesting and makes me feel pretty good. I wrote this a day or two ago over on another thread:

Quote
I think it is possible that G2a was at one time the default y haplogroup in southern Europe, along with I2a.

I also mentioned that I thought the Tripolye people probably had some E1b1b among them but probably not much R1b, if any.

I know Spain is a long way from the Balkans, but it is interesting that still no R1b has been found thus far in Europe older than the Bronze Age.
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« Reply #120 on: November 10, 2011, 11:14:17 PM »

What is even more weird, that no Bronze Age R1b has been found anywhere. The lack of R1b finds from anywhere, and even dating from 18kya is very frustrating. Perhaps this is due to burial practices, and environment conditions in Eurasia since 18kya?

R1b must have primarily roamed a region of humidity, forests, rivers, etc. Maybe all this attributes to the lack of R1b being found in Europe, etc. The G, H, I, J must have been entombed in places where it was extremely cold or hot, and dry; perhaps before or during the height of the LGM. Maybe the best we can hope for R1b is a peat bog for preservation, but who knows when this kind of burial was practiced. Plus finding it. :-(

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« Reply #121 on: November 10, 2011, 11:21:06 PM »

The one R1b from the Lichtenstein Cave dates to about 1,000 BC.

That's Bronze Age in Northern Europe.

It's the oldest R1b thus far found.
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« Reply #122 on: November 13, 2011, 04:33:21 PM »

The one R1b from the Lichtenstein Cave dates to about 1,000 BC.

That's Bronze Age in Northern Europe.

It's the oldest R1b thus far found.

Also, with all the research that has been conducted in Anatolia, I'm quite surprised that we haven't seen one shred of evidence for R1b's presence there. Why is it so difficult to find R1b?

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« Reply #123 on: November 13, 2011, 08:02:20 PM »

Maybe the best we can hope for R1b is a peat bog for preservation, but who knows when this kind of burial was practiced. Plus finding it. :-(

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I asked that question of the curator of the exhibition, Kingship and Sacrifice, in the National Museum of Ireland, which exhibited two well preserved bog bodies. She said that the acid bog water which preserves the bodies also "stews" them which destroys any traces of DNA.
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« Reply #124 on: February 18, 2012, 11:20:32 AM »

Great Riddles in Archaeology Lecture Series: Ötzi the Iceman
Penn Museum
Dr. Thomas Tartaron
February 1, 2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZJpRTrYDeI&feature=player_embedded
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