Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)

[A.D.]

would G2a make him of 'Mesolithic' stock ? I noticed in the article it said he had brown eyes I read somewhere else they were blue or grey. couldn't find any mention of HG. I used google translate so maybe I didn't get everything.

[Maliclavelli]

Giuseppe, imagine if a similar news had been given on 10 August? Had anybody spoken about it? I didn’t find anything on that program. Only this, with a little mistake: Wikipaedia says he was 1,65 high.

Der Mann aus dem Eis war 1,59 groß und zu Lebzeiten etwa 50 kg schwer. Er war zwischen 46 und 47 Jahre alt, feingliedrig gebaut, hatte Schuhgröße 38,und braune Augen. Er hatte ältere Verletzungen und Krankheitsbilder und starb an einer Verletzung durch eine Pfeilspitze. Soweit die Fakten.

But hg. G would be one of the candidate. These two Italian haplotypes are on the FTDNA hg. G project:

E11979 Savioli UMBERTO SAVIOLI 1907-1976 Italy G2a4 13 22 15 10 14-14 11 12 11 14 11 30 18 9-9 11 11 23 16 21 30 12-13-15-16 11 12 20-20 15 14 18 18 33-38 11 11 12 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 13 12 12 21-22 18 10 12 12 17 8 13 25 21 15 12 11 14 10 11 11 11  
33943 Ricchiazzi Ricchiazzi Italy G2a4 14 22 15-17 10 13-14 11 12 13 13 11 29 18 9-10 11 11 22 16 21 30 14-14-14-16 11 11 20-20 15 14 18 18 33-39 11 10 11 8 16-16 8 13 10 8 12 11 12 19-19 15 10 12 12 16 8 11 22 21 13 14 11 14 10 11 11 11
Using the usual method, not mine, we can count 38 mutations, not considering the double value on DYS19:
(454x38):134=128
128x32=4096YBP
I’d say that considering my “mutations around the modal” (it is a little bit believable that the fast mutating markers from DYS607 to CDYb have had only 1 mutation whilst others very slow mutating have mutated many times), these two Italian haplotypes have a Common Ancestor much before the life of Ötzi.

[1790Noll]

I wondered why that was not officiallly released Oetzi..  haplogroup ..
Although definitely in August, scientists already knew, the Iceman's haplogroup..
The professor of Bolzano mummy institute said that there are descendants of Oetzi's right in the mountains of Tyrol.
So they have already found and maybe it is not impossible that they are the group G?!
The thing that amazes me is that a persistent lack of R1b in Europe in the ancient european DNA ..
and this seems to confirm arrive... recently (4000 years ago) of R1b in Europe ...
However, anything is possible.
I wondered if the news was true or not?
The news is still plausible .... for me.
From wikipedia.. about hapl. G2a... in Sardinia, Tyrol, Georgia and Ossetia..
In western Austria, in the Tirol (Tyrol) the G percentage can reach 8% or more. In the northern and highland areas of the island of Sardinia off western Italy, G percentages reach 11% of the population in one study[17] and reached 21% in the town of Tempio in another study

[Maliclavelli]

Of course if we didn't find any R1b in ancient Europe the hypothesis of a recent arrival of its from East would be strengthened, but I continue to hope that we'll find it, perhaps in Central-Western Italy or more Westward. Also by my calculations, this G2a4 probably is at least Mesolithic in Italy, and add the G2a3b1a2 (L497+), probably born in the Rhaetian-Etruscan territory. Also this haplogroup could be in the Younger Dryas Refugium, and I continue to think that also R1b was there.

[1790Noll]

Gioiello, About your idea of ​​an Italian origin of R1b M269 I do not know ... ..
I was always amazed that there were U152 +, among the Bashkir  and the Turks Kipchak and Hungarians  ..
Since all populations are ancient Finno Ugric language .. this exclude a Turkish origin of R1b ..
but, however, the results indicate an recent U152+ origin from Central Asia, which is a group of R1b ..
But all hypotheses are possible.....

[rms2]

Well, that is interesting. I voted y hap I in Dienekes' poll, but that was before this news.

[rms2]

It would be nice to have this news confirmed.

Funny that in July Dr. Zink told me they couldn't release the info and then another scientist goes ahead and spills the beans in August.

[Maliclavelli]

You know that at the origin of my theory (an Italian refugium against an Eastern origin, at least from R1b1*) there was the fact that Italy (and Europe) has all the lines of this haplogroup: R1b1/V88-, R1b1/M18 (Sardinia), R1b1a2/YCAII=17-23, R1b1a2a/L150- (your friend Romitti), R1b1a2a/L150+(me too), R-L51+ (it seemed that Italy had the high percentage) and so on. The 3 most important subclades are European in their origin: R-U152: Central-North Italy, R-U106: Central-North Europe, R-L21: Celtic world, above all the British one. What more?

I think having demonstrated also that R-M73, R-M335, and also R1a-M420, may be born in Italy or in Western (for R1a also Central and Eastern) Europe.

To think that for some R-U152 (which is your haplogroup too) found sparsely in Eastern Europe there is its origin, I consider it an act of masochism.

[1790Noll]

Me also suggested haplogroup I for Oetzi...
Because i  did not think that the Sardinians are also G  or both I and G.
For the rest all are hypotheses for now ..
Wait for the confirmation ..

[1790Noll]

It would be nice to have this news confirmed.

Funny that in July Dr. Zink told me they couldn't release the info and then another scientist goes ahead and spills the beans in August.

May be the scientist Dr. Zink spoke about  Dna hapl. Oetzi in August??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CGG7Ax9btY&feature=related
Surely  months they know the Iceman's DNA.

[1790Noll]

You know that at the origin of my theory (an Italian refugium against an Eastern origin, at least from R1b1*) there was the fact that Italy (and Europe) has all the lines of this haplogroup: R1b1/V88-, R1b1/M18 (Sardinia), R1b1a2/YCAII=17-23, R1b1a2a/L150- (your friend Romitti), R1b1a2a/L150+(me too), R-L51+ (it seemed that Italy had the high percentage) and so on. The 3 most important subclades are European in their origin: R-U152: Central-North Italy, R-U106: Central-North Europe, R-L21: Celtic world, above all the British one. What more?

I think having demonstrated also that R-M73, R-M335, and also R1a-M420, may be born in Italy or in Western (for R1a also Central and Eastern) Europe.

To think that for some R-U152 (which is your haplogroup too) found sparsely in Eastern Europe there is its origin, I consider it an act of masochism.

You are always nice.
I'm no masochist, I thought the only very ancient DNA found .."R " is not. in Europe ..
yes .. but in Asia.
 
I think that the hypothesis of a possible "R" origin should be  from the steppes of Central Asia ..
When?!? I do not know for sure.

Italy was the center of the Roman Empire .. and certainly people came in Italy  from all over the Mediterranean and Europe..
This would explain the variety of Italian hapl. R. Hyp. sure...

[Maliclavelli]

It is masochistic to think they came, sadistic to think we went.

[1790Noll]

Very nice ..
but you know I do not think either sadistic or masochistic or not a source of my group L20 + from a cisalpine Gaul  or from a Lombard (Longobardo)..
For the rest you can not deny that throughout the Roman Empire  a lot of slaves arrived in Italy ..
And also perhaps only in Sardinia, in the mountains of Barbagia, may be have preserved the ancient European Mesolithic in the majority haplogroup I and G...

[Maliclavelli]

Sardinia gets also a high percentage of R-U152 amongst the R haplogroup and also R-M18, one of the most ancient subclade of R1b1/V88-. Don’t you remember when a phantom (who is now again furtive amongst the forums, after having left his paradise under his plants, and he isn’t the Communism) wanted to convince everyone that it was Lebanese? Perhaps he spread the news, because I looked at all the interviews from South Tyrol and nobody spoke of haplogroup G, they said “genes” not “G”.

[1790Noll]

Yes a lot of sardinian coast are U152+ as are the Corsican..
but i think a lot are Ligurians..

The central mountain of Sardinia are I or G. ..

about phoenician phantom.. i don't know..
I remember some talk about R1b+ in Lebanon as crusaders.. mah!?

The V88 are ancients  egyptians as ...their chadics languages...?!.

[Maliclavelli]

They are V88+, but Sardinian R-M18 presupposes V88-, not found in North Africa. My theory is that it came from Italy via sea and I am always waiting the paper Fulvio Cruciani "promised" me.

The phantom who spoke of Phoenicians wasn't a Phoenician. On "Dienekes' blog" I added this:

And who spoke of this news? Marcantonio, written in Italian: the monkey clomb down a tree.

[1790Noll]

Ah,..
i don't knew tha the phantom was Marcantonio ..
the same that writed about Oetzi G2a etc..............
We have always to await that scientist release the Oetzi Y Dna. ok..

[rms2]

So, I gather this news that Ötzi is G2a4 is unreliable.

Okay. We wait for October and the big announcement.

[NealtheRed]

So, I gather this news that Ötzi is G2a4 is unreliable.

Okay. We wait for October and the big announcement.

How was Oetzi determined to be G2a4? I guess I missed this news flash!

[rms2]

So, I gather this news that Ötzi is G2a4 is unreliable.

Okay. We wait for October and the big announcement.

How was Oetzi determined to be G2a4? I guess I missed this news flash!

Apparently someone posted a comment on Dienekes' blog saying he (the poster of the comment) had seen a documentary in which an Austrian scientist had announced that Ötzi's y haplogroup is G2a4.

No one seems able to confirm the truth of that claim, so we're still waiting for the big official announcement in October.

[NealtheRed]

So, I gather this news that Ötzi is G2a4 is unreliable.

Okay. We wait for October and the big announcement.

How was Oetzi determined to be G2a4? I guess I missed this news flash!

Apparently someone posted a comment on Dienekes' blog saying he (the poster of the comment) had seen a documentary in which an Austrian scientist had announced that Ötzi's y haplogroup is G2a4.

No one seems able to confirm the truth of that claim, so we're still waiting for the big official announcement in October.

Ah, I see. It is back to the waiting game then.

[NealtheRed]

I looked at Dienekes's blog regarding Oetzi, and I found another post related to his Y-DNA:

"The Y DNA results are allegedly back. Seen on Austrian TV. Not by me. G2a4".

I am not commenting on validity, just relaying information.

[Mikewww]

I looked at Dienekes's blog regarding Oetzi, and I found another post related to his Y-DNA:

"The Y DNA results are allegedly back. Seen on Austrian TV. Not by me. G2a4".

I am not commenting on validity, just relaying information.

MHammers, does this match up with your aging for G?  I remember you looked at one of the G subclades and felt like its TMRCAs were a little older than the R-L23 in the Caucusus.  Is that right?

[MHammers]

I looked at Dienekes's blog regarding Oetzi, and I found another post related to his Y-DNA:

"The Y DNA results are allegedly back. Seen on Austrian TV. Not by me. G2a4".

I am not commenting on validity, just relaying information.

MHammers, does this match up with your aging for G?  I remember you looked at one of the G subclades and felt like its TMRCAs were a little older than the R-L23 in the Caucusus.  Is that right?

I'll have to find that post, but the G subclades I put together were rather mixed as some were untested for downstream snp's.  However, I did get estimates much older than what we see for R1b.

[MHammers]

Here it is.. I'll see if there is enough G2A4 out there to run through Ken's spreadsheet.

Since we now know G2a3 was present in the LBK of Germany during the neolithic, I decided to run some calculations on G2a3 types using Ken's Generations5 calculator.
The data comes from the FTDna Haplogroup G project.

The following are intraclade ages using mostly G2a3a, G2a3a1, G2a3b, and G2a3b1 as a proxy for a neolithic pattern.  Some of the haplotypes were not as fully tested as I would have liked, so that should be taken into account when considering the ages.

G2a3b and G2a3b1(nothing further downstream) - all locations - G=324/17 or 9720+/-510 ybp - n=154

G2a3b and G2a3b1(nothing further downstream) - Europe only - G=313/16 or 9390+/-480 ybp - n=145

G2a3b1+(all downstream) -all locations - G=366/22 or 10980+/-660 ybp - n=220

G2a3b1+(all downstream) -Europe only - G=356/21 or 10680+/-630 ybp - n=207

G2a3a+ - all locations - G=372/20 or 11160+/-600 ybp - n=36

G2a3a+ - Europe only - G=260/18 or 7800+/-540 ybp - n=24

G2a3b1a1a (for comparison) - G=109/12 or 3270+/-360 ybp - n=34

Here's an interclade for G2a3 using G2a3a, G2a3a1, G2a3b and G2a3b1 (nothing further downtstream) - G=529/135 or 15870+/-4050 ybp

As you can see these ages are much older than what we're getting for R1b.  G2a3 seems to originate in SW Asia sometime during the upper paleolithic and was probably important to the transition to agriculture there.   The Europe only sample for G2a3b and G2a3b1 are in line with a neolithic entry for SE Europe around 7000 BC and the Europe only for G2a3a is very close to LBK in Central Europe.  The LBK aDNA was at least G2a3, but I'm not sure exactly what, if any, downstream snp's were tested.