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Author Topic: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)  (Read 13943 times)
rms2
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« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2011, 07:32:33 PM »

The culture he may have come from is the Remedello culture.  Very interesting pre-beaker copper age culture.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remedello_culture

It is one possible option that R1b1b2 must have spread in the copper age (as suggested by Jean).   Otzi comes from a copper age, immediately pre-beaker, culture which may in some way related to some of the stelae that Jean has linked with some sort of east-west movement that prefigures the beaker network.  On that basis (and admittedly I have not sufficient knowledge on these cultures to make any serious comment) I would for fun throw my hat into the ring that Otzi is some form of R1b, maybe L51.    

I hope you're right. That would be very cool.
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Arch Y.
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« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2011, 01:42:40 AM »

I'm guessing Haplogroup G or E.

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OConnor
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« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2011, 06:40:52 AM »

Of course this is just for fun...only one guess please.

The estimated Date for Release of Results October 20-22/2011

M.Hammers....Hg I of some type, though just a guess.

OConnor........I will guess he will be R1b1a2  M269

rms2..............I'm going to go as far as to predict I2 of some kind,maybe I-M26.

Maliclavelli....... R-P312*

mjost.............I am thinking more towards G Hg

Nealthered....I think Ötzi will turn out to be some type of I.

alan trowel hands........some form of R1b, maybe L51.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 01:19:23 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2011, 08:46:16 AM »

I thank you, but you should have said what is for me “more than it was R1b1b2a (S136+)”, mine, then of course the maximum, : “some R-P312*, probably ancestor of your R-L21”.

Because this would confirm all my theories.

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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2011, 01:21:28 PM »

ok my friend I have changed it to  R-P312*
I can correct it again if I don't have it right.  

I'm wondering how deep Otzi has been snp tested?
Maybe they will just report his basic genetic group..like R1b?..or I ?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 01:25:00 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2011, 01:57:53 PM »

@ OConnor

“I'm wondering how deep Otzi has been snp tested?
Maybe they will just report his basic genetic group..like R1b?..or I ?”

It seems they have tested the whole genome, then we’ll get every information, a new sample of the “1000 Genome Project”. We’ll get all the Z beyond the M,L,U,V etc. If the researchers have said that Ötzi had brown eyes, you can imagine how deep has been their test. And that he had brown eyes does mean, I think, he was a Mediterranean and not one of those who came from North of the Black Sea. At least this is what I hope, I’d say with some good reason.

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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2011, 02:21:07 PM »

I learned from my Grandfather's ww1 enlistment papers that he was dark complextion, black hair, brown eyes, and 5 foot 3 1/2 inches tall.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.02-e.php?image_url=http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/553845b.gif&id_nbr=553612

(Not what I expected.)

My father's eyes were hazel. He was about 5' 7"
I am 5' 10" eyes are brown, I (had) fair brown hair, a light complection.

If my ancestors keep getting shorter then I must come from a line of Leprechauns
from S/E Ireland.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2011, 05:57:09 PM »

I learned from my Grandfather's ww1 enlistment papers that he was dark complextion, black hair, brown eyes, and 5 foot 3 1/2 inches tall.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.02-e.php?image_url=http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/553845b.gif&id_nbr=553612

(Not what I expected.)

My father's eyes were hazel. He was about 5' 7"
I am 5' 10" eyes are brown, I (had) fair brown hair, a light complection.

If my ancestors keep getting shorter then I must come from a line of Leprechauns
from S/E Ireland.


 D*i*e*t affects height and weight. People who eat more animal protein tend to be bigger.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 05:57:29 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2011, 07:21:02 PM »

It is interesting that the Remedillo burials that gave its name to the culture that the ice man was maybe linked to are described as follows

The Copper Age graves contained a single body in a crouching or supine position with the head facing north-west.[3]

The male set was represented by arrows, stone daggers and polished stone axes, among the tombs few are those with axes and daggers or ornaments made of copper.[3]

The female burials are accompanied by ceramic vessels or (in rare occasions) ornaments. The graves of children or youngs contained simple kits of flint stone.[3]

Among the found items noteworthy is the presence of extremely accurate works in flint stone as axes and other weapons, objects in copper and arsenical silver (arms, pins, pectorals, bracelets), all of them characterized by decorative elements of eastern origin.[1]


There is certainly some similarity in description to beaker culture but on the other hand the 2nd half of the culture did overlap with beakers in Iberia so there could be some sort of beaker influence.  I also read somewhere that the culture included barbed and tanged arrowheads.  Again, I am not sure if this is pre-beaker or from the later part of Remedello culture which overlapped with beakers or not.  

I see looking back that the Remedello is part of the Harrison and Heyd take on beakers that Jean's model relates to and has been discussed in the past by Jean and others.  So, it really will be very interesting if the ice man is a Remedello chap.  

I still am not a huge fan of the southern route given variance calculations and the lack of L11* but I suppose L11 could partly have moved along the Alps (I think Myres shows there is hotspot of L11* in the Alps) and S116 could have occurred somewhere like the French/Swiss border (where it had high variance).  The Rhone could have been important as it links both to the Med. and the Rhine and other areas and from there split partly heading north and partly west.  I understand there is a huge amounts of pretty early beaker in the Rhone area.  I recall in the various dating estimates that southern France (and Italy) was in the very early beaker zone along with Iberia.  A lot would fall into place if beaker cultures origins started across a zone that included both Alpine Italy and south-east France as well as Iberia.  

I dont know whether that would mean the ice man would most likely be L51, L11* or S116*.  My problem with the latter is that S116 is not given a high variance in Italy and yet gets its peak variance in the SE France area.  Problem with L11* is it is more on the north side of the Alps it seems to have been found by Myres etc.  That kind of pushes the origin of both L11 and S116 to the north side of the Alps. Maybe not far north though?  Could L11 have happened as some L51 headed up the Rhone coming from Italy?  I believe the Rhone leads to the Rhine and I suppose its not impossible that S116 and U106 both could have descended from L11* people in the SE French/Alps area.  Then why would there be such as explosion of clades from L51-L11-S116/U106 in the north Alpine area?  There is definately a lot to be chewed over but it is not easy to fit it all together in a way that links the DNA and archaeology.  So, I am still guessing but if I had to go for a single clade I would go for L51.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 07:24:32 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
GoldenHind
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« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2011, 08:17:16 PM »

I'm wondering how deep Otzi has been snp tested?
Maybe they will just report his basic genetic group..like R1b?..or I ?

I hope Malicavelli is correct, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the announcement is merely HG I or R1b or whatever he turns out to be. 
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rms2
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« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2011, 07:09:23 AM »

I'm wondering how deep Otzi has been snp tested?
Maybe they will just report his basic genetic group..like R1b?..or I ?

I hope Malicavelli is correct, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the announcement is merely HG I or R1b or whatever he turns out to be. 

Especially since the information will probably be filtered through various news media, the Institute will keep it as simple as possible.

But we can hope for better.
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« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2011, 09:50:28 AM »

@ Rich
“Especially since the information will probably be filtered through various news media, the Institute will keep it as simple as possible”.

But are you joking? After having deciphered the whole genome, not only they’ll publish a detailed paper, but I think they’ll put on internet all the data. They are already working on the data, to do the maximum of discoveries.
But I am asking where is the Italian Government. Of course the Alto Adige/South Tyrol is a “Regione a Statuto Speciale” and has an autonomy, but we are speaking just of the genetic origin  not only of those people, but also of the whole Italians and I think of the Europeans, at least the Western ones, and my Government should can say something.
I have written many times in the past where Fräulein Pichler should have looked for the ancestors of her Hutterites (at least those coming from Tyrol).
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2011, 01:42:00 PM »

@ Rich
“Especially since the information will probably be filtered through various news media, the Institute will keep it as simple as possible”.

But are you joking? After having deciphered the whole genome, not only they’ll publish a detailed paper, but I think they’ll put on internet all the data. They are already working on the data, to do the maximum of discoveries.
But I am asking where is the Italian Government. Of course the Alto Adige/South Tyrol is a “Regione a Statuto Speciale” and has an autonomy, but we are speaking just of the genetic origin  not only of those people, but also of the whole Italians and I think of the Europeans, at least the Western ones, and my Government should can say something.
I have written many times in the past where Fräulein Pichler should have looked for the ancestors of her Hutterites (at least those coming from Tyrol).


They may publish a paper, but will it also be ready October 20-22?

I hope they make everything public.

I'm not big on government involvement.
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« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2011, 03:53:43 PM »

They have all the data at their disposal. It depends on what they want to privilege. We’ll see by what they’ll publish.
The Government. Mine doesn’t exist, less about this stuff.
Read on 23andme what I have written recently to Maragoudakis: a Cretan K1a1b1 (like me) but who matches an Hutterite of Fräulein Pichler: he is probably of Venetian descent and all carries us to North Italy.
In my region I have tested (at my expense) a few persons beyond my familiars by chance:
Me: R1b1b2a (S136+). K1a1b1 (9932A)
My Wife: K1c1* (16180T)
My cousin (then my father): H* (5460A, 10124C, 15617A): that of 3 Hutterites
Tognarelli (husband of my cousin): another R1b1b2a (probably not 136+: C in rs13303711), H6a1
Federighi (husband of a second cousin of mine): R1b1b2 (DYS462=12), R0a (16230G, 16497G)
Malvolti: R-U152, H (no coding region).
Which genetic mine is my zone? Don’t you think that a Government or a people who loves himself
should care for this, and, above all, for his past? And Ötzi is our past.


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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2011, 12:01:57 AM »

The last update of Phylotree has accepted the work of Endicott 2009 and has relabelled K1ö in K1f.
The mutation in 16362 is common to K1d and K1f.
K1d is an Australian, then I suppose of British Isles descent, then what I have said , that the closest to Ötzi are there, I think is demonstrated. This makes me hope about my hypothesis re: Ötzi’s Y, i.e. the ancestor of the most diffused haplogroup of the British Isles, above all the extreme parts (Ireland and Scotland): a bush of R-P312*.

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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2011, 07:58:50 AM »

I learned from my Grandfather's ww1 enlistment papers that he was dark complextion, black hair, brown eyes, and 5 foot 3 1/2 inches tall.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.02-e.php?image_url=http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/553845b.gif&id_nbr=553612

(Not what I expected.)

My father's eyes were hazel. He was about 5' 7"
I am 5' 10" eyes are brown, I (had) fair brown hair, a light complection.

If my ancestors keep getting shorter then I must come from a line of Leprechauns
from S/E Ireland.


Just the other day I was following a related line for some relatives with the surname Kirst (a Kirst married my paternal grandfather's sister, Ruth). I hit a goldmine of documentary info and found their immigrant Kirst ancestor, a man from Saxony in Germany who came to America and joined the U.S. Army. He was at a fort in Texas in the 1870s and up at Ft. Shaw in Montana in the 1880s.

Anyway, I saw a re-enlistment roster with his name on it that listed all the recruits and gave their height, as well as hair and eye color. Sergeant Kirst was 5-3 1/2, but he wasn't unusual. All of the entries I saw were for short guys, by modern standards, anyway. I didn't go over the entire list, but what I saw was striking.

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rms2
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« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2011, 08:18:21 AM »

I learned from my Grandfather's ww1 enlistment papers that he was dark complextion, black hair, brown eyes, and 5 foot 3 1/2 inches tall.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.02-e.php?image_url=http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/553845b.gif&id_nbr=553612

(Not what I expected.)

My father's eyes were hazel. He was about 5' 7"
I am 5' 10" eyes are brown, I (had) fair brown hair, a light complection.

If my ancestors keep getting shorter then I must come from a line of Leprechauns
from S/E Ireland.


Just the other day I was following a related line for some relatives with the surname Kirst (a Kirst married my paternal grandfather's sister, Ruth). I hit a goldmine of documentary info and found their immigrant Kirst ancestor, a man from Saxony in Germany who came to America and joined the U.S. Army. He was at a fort in Texas in the 1870s and up at Ft. Shaw in Montana in the 1880s.

Anyway, I saw a re-enlistment roster with his name on it that listed all the recruits and gave their height, as well as hair and eye color. Sergeant Kirst was 5-3 1/2, but he wasn't unusual. All of the entries I saw were for short guys, by modern standards, anyway. I didn't go over the entire list, but what I saw was striking.




I just went back and looked at two such enlistment rosters. The tallest man I could find was 5-10 1/2, and he must have seemed like a real giant compared with the rest. He was an American from Pennsylvania with the surname Kyle. There were no six-foot or six-foot-plus individuals, not a one.

There were a lot of German and Irish immigrants in the U.S. Army at that time, judging by those rosters. There was one Norwegian, too, I noticed. He was 5-7 1/2.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 08:23:04 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2011, 04:52:34 AM »

Height is directly related to nourishment, and in the XIX century most people living in Western Europe got a very poor . I remember reading that the average height of Danish recruits in 1860 was 163 cms.
Dutch are presently tallest Europeans, however in the XVI century Spanish soldiers laughed at their diminutive Dutch opponents, Dutch society was at the time the most urbannized, and people coming from rural areas were regularly taller and healthier.
Here is an interesting article on historical height
http://www.macleans.ca/science/technology/article.jsp?content=20050404_103140_103140
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 04:53:24 AM by IALEM » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2011, 07:50:40 AM »

Height is directly related to nourishment, and in the XIX century most people living in Western Europe got a very poor . I remember reading that the average height of Danish recruits in 1860 was 163 cms.
Dutch are presently tallest Europeans, however in the XVI century Spanish soldiers laughed at their diminutive Dutch opponents, Dutch society was at the time the most urbannized, and people coming from rural areas were regularly taller and healthier.
Here is an interesting article on historical height
http://www.macleans.ca/science/technology/article.jsp?content=20050404_103140_103140

Notice the political conclusions reached by that article? The warning lights go off when I read stuff like that.

What hooey.
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« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2011, 11:55:14 AM »




Notice the political conclusions reached by that article? The warning lights go off when I read stuff like that.

What hooey.
Hmm no, what are they?
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« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2011, 12:30:24 PM »




Notice the political conclusions reached by that article? The warning lights go off when I read stuff like that.

What hooey.
Hmm no, what are they?

I don't really want to get into a political discussion, but just read the article's conclusions.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 12:30:44 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2011, 01:10:08 PM »

Maybe we are reading different parts, because the only political conclusion I can read is that Rich people are taller and live longer lives.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 01:10:27 PM by IALEM » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2011, 06:13:58 AM »

http://news.discovery.com/history/oetzi-girlfriend-skeleton-110720.html


"Italian workers building an addition to a kindergarten have unearthed a well preserved female skeleton who might be relatively contemporaneous with Ötzi, the Iceman mummy discovered 20 years ago in a melting glacier in South Tyrol.

The "Lady of Introd" or "Ötzi’s girlfriend," as the skeleton was nicknamed in Italy, was found in the tiny Alpine village of Introd, in the Val d'Aosta, famous to be the preferred vacationing spot for both Pope John II and his successor Benedict XVI.

According to archaeologists and anthropologists, the woman has been lying on her right side, with her head facing west, for about 5,000 years."

I hope she is next for the full genome treatment. They could determine her degree of cousinship with Otzi.


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R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



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« Reply #48 on: August 13, 2011, 06:49:40 AM »

http://news.discovery.com/history/oetzi-girlfriend-skeleton-110720.html


"Italian workers building an addition to a kindergarten have unearthed a well preserved female skeleton who might be relatively contemporaneous with Ötzi, the Iceman mummy discovered 20 years ago in a melting glacier in South Tyrol.

The "Lady of Introd" or "Ötzi’s girlfriend," as the skeleton was nicknamed in Italy, was found in the tiny Alpine village of Introd, in the Val d'Aosta, famous to be the preferred vacationing spot for both Pope John II and his successor Benedict XVI.

According to archaeologists and anthropologists, the woman has been lying on her right side, with her head facing west, for about 5,000 years."

I hope she is next for the full genome treatment. They could determine her degree of cousinship with Otzi.


They should at least be able to get her mtDNA, which would be something, anyway.
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« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2011, 05:12:11 AM »

G2a4!?!?
From Dienekes blog... comment.. of Marcantonio...
According to an interview with an austrian scientist Ötzi is G2a4!

Link?

The source of this information is an interview with Dr. Eduard Egarter-Vigl, Head of Conservation and Assistant to research projects of the Archaeological Museum in Bozen, given in a documentary on Ötzi broadcast by 3sat on 10th august 2011. See also the following link for more info on this documentary:
http://www.3sat.de/page/?source=/dokumentationen/155967/index.html
But unless you speak German this link will be of no interest!

I wonder if it is true (G2a)  or just speculation?!
Giuseppe.

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