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Author Topic: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)  (Read 13963 times)
rms2
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« on: July 05, 2011, 07:30:59 PM »

I heard this morning that the entire genome of Ötzi the famous Italian "Iceman" has been successfully sequenced. Naturally, I want to know his y haplogroup, so I thought, what the heck, it doesn't hurt to ask someone who knows the answer. So I wrote the contact email at the Institute for Mummies and the Iceman in Bolzano, Italy.

To my surprise, I actually received an answer.

No, I don't yet know what Ötzi's y haplogroup is, but I received a very courteous answer from Dr. Albert Zink of the Institute. I don't think he would mind me quoting him, so here's part of what he wrote me:

"The Iceman genome will be published soon including his Y haplogroup. You may understand that we cannot release any information in advance.
Best,
Albert Zink"


So, that's something to look forward to.

Anyone want to start the guessing game as to what his y haplogroup will be?

I need to think about it, personally.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 07:36:45 PM by rms2 » Logged

MHammers
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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2011, 08:22:21 PM »

Hg I of some type, though just a guess.
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Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

OConnor
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« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2011, 06:33:05 AM »

I'll go on Faith to support my R Group.

I will guess he will be R1b1a2  M269

Do you favour one idea over the other, as to was Otzi killed in the mountains, or carried and laid to rest there?

(A different approach)
Ötzi died a violent death in the spring and was carried up to a high pass five months later for a ceremonial burial, according to a new study.
A map of the body and artifacts indicates that the Iceman was buried on a stone platform.
Over time, the body and the objects moved in semi-melted ice until they were found 19 years ago.

"Our reconstruction suggests that Ötzi died at at lower altitude in early-mid spring, and was then buried up on the mountain with his goods in late summer or early autumn," Luca Bondioli of the National Museum of Prehistory and Ethnology in Rome told Discovery News.

Pollen found in the mummy's gut indicated that Ötzi died in April, while pollen within the ice suggested the corpse was deposited there in August or September. The theory would explain this mismatch.


There is a comment ending the article

But Frank Rühli, head of the Swiss Mummy Project at the University of Zurich and one of the experts who investigated the mummy, argues it's is unlikely that Ötzi's unnatural posture, with the left arm bent across the chest, was the result of a post-mortem event.

"CT scans suggested that no major movement of the arm occurred after death," Rühli told Discovery News.

http://news.discovery.com/history/iceman-otzi-burial-ceremony.html

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I have doubts that pollen in the ice can indicate what time of year he was laid to rest. Who knows how long after his death that the ice formed, or melted and reformed?

Analysis of Ötzi's gut contents showed two meals, one of ibex meat, the second of red deer meat, both consumed with some grain. Pollen in the first meal showed that it had been consumed in a mid-altitude conifer forest.
http://www.crystalinks.com/oetzi.html


« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 06:36:06 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2011, 07:34:14 AM »

Hg I of some type, though just a guess.

That's my guess, too. I'm going to go as far as to predict I2 of some kind (maybe I-M26).
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 07:36:22 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2011, 08:40:57 AM »

I feel like a privileged person with inside information . . . because I now know when Ötzi's y haplogroup and the rest of his genetic information will be released:

October 20-22, 2011, at the next Bolzano Mummy Congress called "Mummies from the Ice".

The people at the Institute for Mummies and the Iceman in Bolzano, Italy, are very nice. I received a follow-up email this morning from Paola Bassetti of the Institute informing me of the release of Ötzi's information at the congress I mentioned above.

So that's it: October 20-22.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2011, 10:28:41 AM »

Rich, it didn’t please to me that these studies have been done by “German” scientists:
1)   Because Oetzi, in spite of the name, was an ancient Italian; he has been found in Italy in spite of some of you writes in Austria or more in Austria than in Italy. I have written a lot about the papers of Irene Pichler and others: the inhabitants of the most ancient places of Alto Adige /South Tyrol are above all “Italians” and not Germans: the last letter I wrote was about mtDNA H* of some Hutterites that Fraülein Pichler was looking for in Central Europe, but this is the mtDNA of my father (mutations: 5460A, 10124C, 15617A), then, if she were searching in Tuscany, she would for sure have found it. I wouldn’t that Oetzi ends like Tutankhamun.
2)   If the test had been done by Italians, certainly we’d have known the result before that date, and this would be a best thing for us, but not to the detriment of German scholars.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 02:05:32 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2011, 01:03:26 PM »

Which would be the best result for me? I have said many times: an haplotype of an haplogroup thought so far very recent, like it happened for the G2a found in France: following that haplotype and the current theories (of Nordtvedt, Klyosov, Vizachero: but is he still alive?) it would have been 2000 years old, and it is 5000.
Why it will unlikely be a I-M26? Because this haplogroup is more ancient and migrated to Sardinia from main Italy long before. But we know the mtDNA of Ötzi: K1ö, i.e. one of that bush from where comes my K1a… Then I think that he could probably be from that bush from where only a few lines have survived and probably its descendants are in the British Isles, then some R-P312*, probably ancestor of your R-L21.
This would be for me the maximum, perhaps more than it was R1b1b2a (S136+).

« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 11:39:51 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

OConnor
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« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2011, 01:19:35 PM »

Could the Alps in general have had a some-what common people in Otzi's time? Could this mean that the people of the Alps extended south into the heart of italy and beyond? Maybe not?

I had wondered one time or another if the Alps back then should considered a country in itself. Perhaps it could be named Alpinia. And not parts of Italy, Austria and Swiss.

I don't mean to step on any toes. I am just trying to look at a world with different  boundries than today.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2011, 01:37:49 PM »

Ötzi came from the Remedello culture, his copper axe came from Tuscan ore, then if there is a people who can claim his ancestry they are the Italians. You have seen how Austrians have owned of him, but they are genetically (those of Alto Adige and Austrian Tyrol) mostly descendants of those ancient inhabitants (the Rhaetians) and have a little to do with Germans come later. The fact that we shall find the Ötzi’s descendants in the British Isles is what I have said from many years, not giving a lot of pleasure to the same British or Celts. But this is what Genetics is demonstrating: probably the closest to Ötzi, at least for his mtDNA, are in the British Isles. If someone wants to think that he was the son of an Irish monk, he is free to think that.
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Maliclavelli


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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

OConnor
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« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2011, 01:54:18 PM »

There have been green stone axes found in southern england which are supposedly sourced from the Italian Alps. So I am open to anything.

But they are around 6000 years old. Is this a time before R1b1 in North West Europe? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/court_and_social/article6497835.ece
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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GoldenHind
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« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2011, 02:06:56 PM »

Is there a firm date for when Ötzi lived?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 02:07:53 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2011, 02:24:32 PM »

5300 Years Before Present.
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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2011, 02:36:01 PM »

I would be thrilled if Ötzi were P312+, but I seriously doubt it.

I'm still going with some kind of I2. That's my guess, and I'm sticking with it.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2011, 05:18:58 PM »

Could he have been Haplogroup E, G or J?
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2011, 06:32:13 PM »

Could he have been Haplogroup E, G or J?

Sure.
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OConnor
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« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2011, 09:12:25 PM »

hey c'mon mjost...just one guess.  ;))
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Mark Jost
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« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2011, 09:54:52 AM »

I am thinking more towards G Hg since I read something about Eurasia in my reading of the Iceman. Wasn't there a recent discussion on how G was really a strong southwestern Euro Haplogroup before R1b arrived and replaced G as a majority.

Steve, I2 is a great suggestion though. It is strong presence in the Southeastern part of Europe.

The Romania page has some great Maps for review - Romania - Results
GENERAL OBSERVATIONS

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Romania/default.aspx?section=results
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2011, 12:48:05 PM »

Like I wrote to my friend Giuseppe Belgieri a few days ago, Romania is a mix of too many peoples for meaning something: if you understand a little of surnames, there are above all Jews, Germans, Poles, probably someone will be a Gypsy, and the true Romanians will be some the descendants of the Italians and Celts-Romans of the Rhine Valley who peopled the ancient Dacia after the Trajan's conquest and others goodness knows of which other origin. There are many Hungarians too.
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Maliclavelli


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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Mark Jost
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« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2011, 01:23:16 PM »

Romanians melded into the Hungarian culture in the last few millenniums but what happened 5500 years ago is well known?
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2011, 05:41:16 PM »

I think Ötzi will turn out to be some type of I.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2011, 09:34:09 PM »

I think Ötzi will turn out to be some type of I.

Of course, I agree.

And, of course, we're all just having fun. He could turn out to belong to just about any y haplogroup.

I'm looking forward to finding out. Too bad we have to wait until the end of October!
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2011, 08:32:46 AM »

He had a copper axe etc and there was certainly at one time a suggestion he may have been a metal worker.  I wonder how Otzi fits in with with Jean's idea of Stelae people as pre-beaker metalworkers passing through Italy to Iberia. 

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rms2
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« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2011, 08:17:30 AM »

He had a copper axe etc and there was certainly at one time a suggestion he may have been a metal worker.  I wonder how Otzi fits in with with Jean's idea of Stelae people as pre-beaker metalworkers passing through Italy to Iberia. 



What puzzles me is why whoever killed Ötzi did not steal his copper axe or his other things, for that matter.
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OConnor
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« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2011, 06:51:41 AM »

A couple things came to mind.

If Otzi was murdered by someone (or people) he knew,  they may not want to return with anything that can be recognized as his.

Or perhaps he was buried further up in the mountains in a rock cist of some sort. Over thousands of years the melting sliding glacier could have dragged him and his items to where they were found.

According to Maliclavelli his copper axe came from Tuscan ore.
This does not mean he brought it from there, or that he made it himself.
I remember the Amesbury Archer's 2 copper knives were traced to Spain, and France. They could have been obtained as gifts, trade, plunder, or he may have made them himself.

 
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2011, 02:30:51 PM »

The culture he may have come from is the Remedello culture.  Very interesting pre-beaker copper age culture.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remedello_culture

It is one possible option that R1b1b2 must have spread in the copper age (as suggested by Jean).   Otzi comes from a copper age, immediately pre-beaker, culture which may in some way related to some of the stelae that Jean has linked with some sort of east-west movement that prefigures the beaker network.  On that basis (and admittedly I have not sufficient knowledge on these cultures to make any serious comment) I would for fun throw my hat into the ring that Otzi is some form of R1b, maybe L51.    
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 02:34:48 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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