World Families Forums - Horse Domestication in Western Europe

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 01, 2014, 11:36:14 PM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Horse Domestication in Western Europe
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Horse Domestication in Western Europe  (Read 906 times)
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« on: July 02, 2011, 05:48:49 PM »

Can anyone here refer me to a good article or book on the history of horse domestication in Western Europe?

It seems to me, if the Kurgan Theory of the spread of Indo-European is correct, then there should be some sort of correlation between Indo-European and the spread of horse domestication and riding to the West.

I have read that horse milk is actually higher in lactose than cow's milk, so lactase persistence would be even more beneficial to a horse milk-drinking population than to a cow milk-drinking population. I read somewhere that horse milk residue has been found in pots in Kazakhstan dated to 5,000 BC, so presumably those people were drinking horse milk. Of course, the modern Kazakhs like to ferment horse milk into Kumis (which tastes like alcoholic blue cheese - I've tried it), and fermentation converts lactose into alcohol and lactic acid, thus eliminating the lactose intolerance problem.

I've also drunk unfermented mare's milk, and it is noticeably sweeter than cow's milk.

Anyway, has anyone traced the spread of horse domestication and horseback riding into Western Europe?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 05:51:02 PM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 731


« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2011, 08:25:27 PM »

Can anyone here refer me to a good article or book on the history of horse domestication in Western Europe?

It seems to me, if the Kurgan Theory of the spread of Indo-European is correct, then there should be some sort of correlation between Indo-European and the spread of horse domestication and riding to the West.

I have read that horse milk is actually higher in lactose than cow's milk, so lactase persistence would be even more beneficial to a horse milk-drinking population than to a cow milk-drinking population. I read somewhere that horse milk residue has been found in pots in Kazakhstan dated to 5,000 BC, so presumably those people were drinking horse milk. Of course, the modern Kazakhs like to ferment horse milk into Kumis (which tastes like alcoholic blue cheese - I've tried it), and fermentation converts lactose into alcohol and lactic acid, thus eliminating the lactose intolerance problem.

I've also drunk unfermented mare's milk, and it is noticeably sweeter than cow's milk.

Anyway, has anyone traced the spread of horse domestication and horseback riding into Western Europe?

I suggest you contact Jean M.

Like you, I have wondered if lactose tolerance first arose arose amongst the IEs through horse rather than cow's milk. It may have been difficult for nomadic people to take cows along with them.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 08:26:59 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2011, 06:30:50 PM »


I found some opinions on the horse in Europe here

http://www.svincent.com/CrystalObelisk/DontEatThem/HorseHistoryEurope.html
Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Heber
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2011, 03:56:22 AM »

It is discussed to varying degrees in the following and in Anthonys book in the most detail.

The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World
David Anthony
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/069114818X/ref=s9_simh_se_p14_d0_i3?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=auto-no-results-center-1&pf_rd_r=1E8KV56G8VA4XED4HFME&pf_rd_t=301&pf_rd_p=1263465782&pf_rd_i=horse%20neolithic%20lactose%20tolerence


After the Ice: A Global Human History 20,000-5000 BC
Steven Mithen

The 10,000 year explosion
How Civilization Accelerated Human Evolution
Gregory Cochran
http://the10000yearexplosion.com/
Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2011, 08:49:35 AM »

I've read Anthony's book at least three times. It does discuss horse domestication but it does not have what I am looking for, which is the history of the spread of horse domestication and horseback riding into Western Europe.

That is one of the big shortcomings of Anthony's book and of all the books I've read that advance the Kurgan Theory. That is, they don't give one much reason to believe steppe people could have spread IE all the way to the Atlantic.
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2011, 08:53:20 AM »


I saw that, but it's pretty scanty and doesn't trace horse domestication into Western Europe.

We know horses and horseback riding became important in Western Europe, but how? And when?
Logged

OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2011, 11:42:32 AM »

The idea of horses being domesticated in different places is interesting. A big problem is the first artifacts associated with horse domestication were probably leather and not able to survive over time.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

A little news on Iberian Horses

The researchers have compared the ancient Iberian sequences from Iberian Neolithic, Bronze Age and Middle Ages obtained in this study with more than 1,000 modern horse sequences from different Iberian and non-Iberian breeds, as well as with ancient sequences from other studies

"wild horses from Iberia contributed to the domestication process, and the Lusitano group C is a witness from this event. "The Lusitano C is a small group constituted only by modern horses from Iberian origin. We have found that maternal lineages from this group were already present in wild Iberian horses from the Early Neolithic, continuing through the Bronze Age until nowadays." explains Juan Luis Arsuaga. These results suggest the possibility of a completely independent domestication episode, or the use of Iberian maternal lineages in a restocking process from the wild."

more.. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100107114431.htm
Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Heber
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2011, 03:25:12 AM »

I have read the histories of Ghenghis Khan and Kublai  Khan and the recurring theme was the importance of mares milk in their  which contributed to their success.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Yclu5Rw-3WUC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=genghis+khan+mare's+milk&source=bl&ots=tMbPBBAdwE&sig=sIVRitPpZMqx4dzhyzRxbbEQC2k&hl=en&ei=MA0UTrXBEcPLswb-x43eDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=genghis%20khan%20mare's%20milk&f=false
Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2011, 07:30:16 AM »


I think they must have been fermenting it, because lactose intolerance is high for Asian populations.
Logged

Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.067 seconds with 19 queries.