World Families Forums - Spanish/Portuguese R-L21 Haplotype Cluster with 19=15, 459b=9, and YCAIIb=19

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Author Topic: Spanish/Portuguese R-L21 Haplotype Cluster with 19=15, 459b=9, and YCAIIb=19  (Read 2381 times)
rms2
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« on: June 29, 2011, 08:47:27 AM »

I stumbled upon this haplotype cluster last June and started a thread about it back then. I would have resurrected the old thread, but it had grown long and kind of cluttered, so I decided to create this new one.

There appears to be a Spanish/Portuguese haplotype cluster characterized by the marker values 19=15, 459b=9, and YCAIIb=19.

I have to say up front that this is not a really tight cluster. There are non-Iberian and even non-L21+ who have those marker values. Just the same, when all three of them occur together in someone of Spanish or Portuguese ancestry, they seem to be a good indication that the person is L21+.

The reason I decided to bring this back up is that I finally got one of the members of the cluster to test, after pursuing him for the past year.

Here is the list of cluster members who have tested L21+ so far:

Calvo - Spain (Ysearch GYFHF)

Vargas - Portugal (Ysearch CY5FZ)

Fernandez - Mexico (Ysearch 84MAJ)

Costa - Portugal (Ysearch 6SZWA)

Ventura - Portugal (No Ysearch yet; kit 157713)



The cluster member whose test is now in progress is

Lopez de Prado Lopez - Spain (Ysearch 733TC)

I also found another cluster member:

Leal - Mexico (Ysearch E7Q23)

I am trying to recruit Leal for L21 testing.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 08:52:20 AM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2011, 09:23:56 AM »

Great work, Rich.  In a sense, you are L21's "lead scout", if not our only true scout.

Do you have a feel for the age of this cluster?
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
rms2
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« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2011, 11:34:23 PM »

Great work, Rich.  In a sense, you are L21's "lead scout", if not our only true scout.

Do you have a feel for the age of this cluster?

I don't know really. I haven't tried to run the haplotypes through McGee's Utility to see. These days, I kind of rely on numbers guys like you to give me age estimates.

Thus far it seems to be a western group. Portugal, of course, is western, and Calvo's ancestry is from SW Spain (Andalusia), as I recall. Lopez de Prado Lopez has ancestry in Galicia, which is in NW Spain. I'm hoping he gets an L21+ result.



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cmblandford
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« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2011, 03:20:58 PM »

This seems like a good group for WTY; if a new SNP were found it could have some interesting geographical and historical implications.
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Y-DNA:  R-DF13*


Surname Project:  Blandford

Kit:  ft115893   Ysearch:  EYSPZ


Earliest Known Ancestor:  Thomas Blanford; Dorset, England; born 1648


alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2011, 03:46:04 PM »

Do I remember correctly that more than one Iberian L21 cluster has been identified?  

« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 03:46:21 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2011, 05:30:41 PM »

Do I remember correctly that more than one Iberian L21 cluster has been identified?  

Yes. There are two. This one is the second one.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2011, 04:33:50 PM »

Do I remember correctly that more than one Iberian L21 cluster has been identified?  

Yes. There are two. This one is the second one.

I recall now after checking an old thread on this.  The other one seemed to have a strong NE Spain distribution.  It is interesting that the two clusters seem to be NE and western and this seems to also be true of L21 in Iberia as a whole.  I suspect there are two origins for Iberian L21.  Maybe there are two clusters in those bits of Iberia simply because these are the areas of Iberia where most L21 is and therefore its more likely a cluster would form in those areas.  The question on my mind is if there really are two separate L21 areas in Iberia (which I realise is speculative) then how did it get there?  A NE group is easy to explain given that there is a reasonable amount in western France according to Myres.  Its harder to see how L21 got to western Iberia given the gap in between.  Does seem like a maritime solution would be best. 
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rms2
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« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2011, 05:01:51 PM »

Do I remember correctly that more than one Iberian L21 cluster has been identified?  

Yes. There are two. This one is the second one.

I recall now after checking an old thread on this.  The other one seemed to have a strong NE Spain distribution.  It is interesting that the two clusters seem to be NE and western and this seems to also be true of L21 in Iberia as a whole.  I suspect there are two origins for Iberian L21.  Maybe there are two clusters in those bits of Iberia simply because these are the areas of Iberia where most L21 is and therefore its more likely a cluster would form in those areas.  The question on my mind is if there really are two separate L21 areas in Iberia (which I realise is speculative) then how did it get there?  A NE group is easy to explain given that there is a reasonable amount in western France according to Myres.  Its harder to see how L21 got to western Iberia given the gap in between.  Does seem like a maritime solution would be best.  

I was just looking at Iberia on the R-L21 European Continent Map. Leaving out the placemarks in Madrid, and drawing a north-south line through Madrid to divide East and West, there are nine placemarks in the East and ten in the West.

Of the four placemarks in Madrid, only one represents an ancestor actually born in Madrid (about 1880). The rest are stuck there because all I know about their places of birth is "Spain".

Of the ten placemarks in the western half of Iberia, only five are in the cluster that is the subject of this thread.

It is curious that most of the L21 is found around the edges of the peninsula. The exception is Romero (Ysearch 7K7QZ), whose ancestor came from east of Toledo, unless you count Garcia (Ysearch ZQ6P9), whose ancestor was actually born in Madrid, albeit late (1880, as I mentioned above).

I suspect part of the reason for this is that historically the periphery of the Iberian Peninsula has been the most densely populated part, but I could be wrong about that.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 05:04:45 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2011, 05:24:13 PM »

Maybe we should try to raise money for a study of Iberian L21, i.e., recruiting men of Portuguese and Spanish descent for L21 testing.

I suspect the biggest problem would be that we might find Iberia less fruitful than France.

Spending money, waiting seemingly forever, and finally getting a bunch of negative results is double plus un-fun.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2011, 08:52:56 PM »

Maybe we should try to raise money for a study of Iberian L21, i.e., recruiting men of Portuguese and Spanish descent for L21 testing.

I suspect the biggest problem would be that we might find Iberia less fruitful than France.

Spending money, waiting seemingly forever, and finally getting a bunch of negative results is double plus un-fun.
This is one area that probably should be done in conjunction with the P312 Project and SRY2627 project people.  R1b people from Iberia could be about anything and need the deep clade package type testing. The price is about 3x higher, but the other project folks would benefit as much, if not more, than L21 folks.
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rms2
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« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2011, 08:58:56 PM »

Maybe we should try to raise money for a study of Iberian L21, i.e., recruiting men of Portuguese and Spanish descent for L21 testing.

I suspect the biggest problem would be that we might find Iberia less fruitful than France.

Spending money, waiting seemingly forever, and finally getting a bunch of negative results is double plus un-fun.
This is one area that probably should be done in conjunction with the P312 Project and SRY2627 project people.  R1b people from Iberia could be about anything and need the deep clade package type testing. The price is about 3x higher, but the other project folks would benefit as much, if not more, than L21 folks.

You know, I was thinking pretty much the same thing.

Coordinating it would be difficult with so many projects and project admins involved, though.

Maybe Tibor Feher could run it through the R1b Project, but I would definitely like to see it limited to Iberia.

A hundred or more new Iberian Deep Clade results would be nice.
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rms2
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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2011, 10:15:28 PM »

I think it might be easier to raise money to test Iberian guys through the R-L21 Plus Project simply because a lot of the Irish guys would be interested in the results because of the connection alleged between Ireland and Iberia in the Book of Invasions.

Just thinking out loud.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2011, 06:45:20 AM »

The way I felt about French testing is it probably needed supported more than other large western European countries because of the lack of testing.  There always seemed to be a better stream of people from Germany, Iberia and of course Britain and Ireland testing.  It also was a strong hunch/educated guess that there would be a high hit rate in France and therefore reasonable value for money. 

Unless something has changed in our understanding of identifying S116 clades from STRs then I would imagine a place like Iberia could be pretty painful for blind testing of unresolved R1b in terms of negative results given the predominance of other S116 clades.  I certainly wouldnt see the c. 50% hit rate we saw in the (largely northern) French sample.  Could be something really painful like less than one in ten which just wouldnt be practical.  Also the world economy would not help donations.  The change in the economy from a couple of years ago to now has been huge.  I do agree though that the old 'book of invasion' obsession might generate interest. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2011, 06:54:01 AM »

Anyway, based on what we have in Iberia, the pattern to date does seems to hint at a dual distribution of L21 in Iberia with a stronger NE group and a more diffuse western Iberian group.  Although Myres only tested very patchily in Iberia this pattern was not contradicted in that study.  It picked out modest elevations of L21 in its testing in Santander (the most north-easterly area tested) and Porto (the only Portugese area tested) if I recall correctly but very low levels elsewhere in Iberia.  That seems compatible with the NE and western peaks identified in the project maps.   I am a believer that the project maps are showing the basic reality of distribution of L21 albeit not perfectly. 
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rms2
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« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2011, 04:08:29 PM »

Anyway, based on what we have in Iberia, the pattern to date does seems to hint at a dual distribution of L21 in Iberia with a stronger NE group and a more diffuse western Iberian group.  Although Myres only tested very patchily in Iberia this pattern was not contradicted in that study.  It picked out modest elevations of L21 in its testing in Santander (the most north-easterly area tested) and Porto (the only Portugese area tested) if I recall correctly but very low levels elsewhere in Iberia.  That seems compatible with the NE and western peaks identified in the project maps.   I am a believer that the project maps are showing the basic reality of distribution of L21 albeit not perfectly. 

I don't trust Myres. I get the impression they were hunting for U106 and maybe U152 and didn't care about much else.

The sampling was just odd, and the results were even odder.

I would like to see someone else come along and do a better job, but how likely is that anytime soon?

In the meantime, I would like to at least target Iberians who are likely to be L21+.
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rms2
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« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2011, 09:00:59 AM »

Back to the cluster that is the subject of this thread.

Robert Tarin found a few more cluster members.

Rodriguez Lopez, kit 29829 (Ysearch J45FQ) is one. He has only 25 markers in Ysearch, but his full 37 can be seen in the Puerto Rico Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/puertoricansurname/default.aspx?section=yresults

Robert also found two more in SMGF:

Medeiros (Brazil)

Alcantara Guzman (Peru)

Too bad there is no way to get hold of those Sorenson entries.

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rms2
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« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2011, 09:34:16 AM »

Back to the cluster that is the subject of this thread.

Robert Tarin found a few more cluster members.

Rodriguez Lopez, kit 29829 (Ysearch J45FQ) is one. He has only 25 markers in Ysearch, but his full 37 can be seen in the Puerto Rico Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/puertoricansurname/default.aspx?section=yresults

Robert also found two more in SMGF:

Medeiros (Brazil)

Alcantara Guzman (Peru)

Too bad there is no way to get hold of those Sorenson entries.




There is another in the Puerto Rico Project would could be a member of this cluster:

Sierra, kit 80959, Ysearch BGKYK

Unfortunately, he has just 25 markers, so, although he has 19=15 and 459=9-9, there is no YCAII result. We can't tell if he has 19-19 there or not.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 09:36:48 AM by rms2 » Logged

IALEM
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« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2011, 10:24:22 AM »



I suspect part of the reason for this is that historically the periphery of the Iberian Peninsula has been the most densely populated part, but I could be wrong about that.
That depends on what you mean as historically, before the 17th century it was the central regions that were more densely populated, and in earlier periods it was the south (The valley of Guadalquivir) and the Mediterranean coast.
An alternative explanation is that most migrants to America come from the Northern coast, so maybe is that pattern what is reflected.
IMO L-21 in the Basque Country is fromWestern France, but the tptal percentage is probabbly boosted by the high percentage of R1b.
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Y-DNA L21+


MDKA Lope de Arriçabalaga, born c. 1390 in Azcoitia, Basque Country

OConnor
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« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2011, 04:44:53 PM »

I tossed the numbers in y-search with some more L21+ like str values to make up a 12 number sequence. I got mostly German, Welsh, Scot people, and a Dupuis which I think is French. A couple Isle surnames are supposedly connected to Norse origin like Reynalds.


Iberia seems to have been visited many times by the Norse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_expansion   

Iberia
"Another great campaign took place in 968. The jarl ("warlord") Gundraed attacked Galicia with 100 ships and 8,000 warriors. They roamed freely for years and even occupied Santiago de Compostella, but the Vikings were finally defeated by the troops of the count Gonzalo Sanchez"
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


rms2
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« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2011, 07:39:46 PM »



I suspect part of the reason for this is that historically the periphery of the Iberian Peninsula has been the most densely populated part, but I could be wrong about that.
That depends on what you mean as historically, before the 17th century it was the central regions that were more densely populated, and in earlier periods it was the south (The valley of Guadalquivir) and the Mediterranean coast.
An alternative explanation is that most migrants to America come from the Northern coast, so maybe is that pattern what is reflected.
IMO L-21 in the Basque Country is fromWestern France, but the tptal percentage is probabbly boosted by the high percentage of R1b.

Thanks. I think you are right that part of what we are seeing has a lot to do with the American immigration pattern.

We've also seen that with the French results, since many of our members are French Canadian.
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rms2
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« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2011, 07:41:09 PM »

Lopez de Prado Lopez (Ysearch 733TC) just got his L21+ result today, so chalk up another positive for this cluster. His mdka came from Aldurfe in Galicia (which you can see from his Ysearch entry and from the R-L21 European Continent Map).
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Erik Maher
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« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2013, 07:12:09 PM »

Hi fellow Iberian 9919 researchers, I'm copying this z9919-A-SP list here for safekeeping, building upon your earlier discoveries.  (Do you think the surname "Parrott" belongs in this cluster?)  As you mentioned, this cluster is not very tight, at least in the first 67 markers, but I wonder if all members will turn out to have the {495=14, 643=9} combination of very slow mutating markers, as Costa does?

Full STR off-modals are on the 9919 Project's Results tab; hit Ctrl-F and search for "9919-A-SP"
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/recloh/default.aspx?section=results

Regards,
Erik

Note:  I'm not entirely sure all of these kits belong in this list, esp. the 37-marker kits.

__________________________________________________

z9919-A-SP [possibly all 495=14 and 643=9?; "Iberian"]

Allen:  122187 (67m, from Ireland)
Allen:  144432 (37-marker kit, from England)
Carvalho:  270874 (37-marker kit, from Portugal, predicted A-SP)
Costa:  136490 6SZWA (111m, from Portugal, DF13+)
Ortega (de Herrera):  E8027 88NXH (67m, unknown origin)
Calvo de la Puerta:  N5681 GYFHF (67m, L21+, from Spain)
De Torres:  235991 (67m, L21+, unknown origin)
Delgado:  50251 (67m, from Tenerife, Canary Islands, Spain)
Garaboto:  251332 (37-marker kit, from Tenerife, Canary Islands, Spain, predicted A-SP)
Fernández:  70364 84MAJ (37-marker kit, L21+, from Mexico, predicted A-SP)
Fernandes (Ventura):  157713 (67m, L21+, from Azores, Portugal)
Leal:  40955 E7Q23 (67m, from Spain)
Rodriguez Lopez:  29829 J45FQ (37-marker kit, from Caguas, Puerto Rico, predicted A-SP)
López Salgado (de Prado):  E2160 733TC (37-marker kit, L21+, from Aldurfe, Galicia, Spain)
McCarthy:  145187 (37-marker kit, from Ireland, predicted A-SP)
Miranda:  288129 (37-marker kit, from Spain, predicted A-SP)
Santos:  223336 (37-marker kit, from USA, predicted A-SP)
Vargus:  79767 CY5FZ (67m, DF13+, from Portugal)
Ventura:  157713 (67m, L21+, from Portugal)
???:  105060 (67m, unknown origin) <----- I can only find this on Semargl and don't know the surname

Robert Tarin found these two in SMGF:
Medeiros (Brazil)
Alcantara Guzman (Peru)

Possibly A-SP
Richard Perrot descendants or possible descendants, see http://www.familytreedna.com/public/parrott/default.aspx?section=yresults
Also see http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~parrott/family-a.shtml
Unknown L21 or DF13 status.
General pattern:  19=15, 385=12-14, 456=17, 570=19, 413a=22, 557=17, 534=16, 481=21
Parrott:  43755 (67m, 640=12)
Parrott (Perrott):  62651 (67m, 640=12)
Parrott:  258360 (67m, 640=12)
Several other 37, 25, and 12-marker Parrott kits

Possibly A-SP
Sierra Lopez:  80959 BGKYK (25-marker kit, from Spain)

Most striking characteristics:
Many of the members are of known or suspected Iberian origin.
Assuming the rest will match Costa, they will be the only 9919 group who universally has 495=14 and 643=9, both of which are very slow mutating.
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Erik Maher
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« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2013, 07:28:41 PM »

Ooops, never mind my question regarding surname Parrott; I just noticed that Mike already has this surname under z9919-A-SP in the L21 Haplotypes spreadsheet.
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