DF19: a new SNP under P312

[verelst]

What's the earliest record of Saxons raiding northern France?

The Menapian soldier Carausius was mentioned as a successful naval commander in the Roman fight against Frankish and Saxon pirates along the North Sea coasts (Belgica and Armorica), as early as 285 AD, before he started his own rebellion against Rome:    http://www.dot-domesday.me.uk/empires2.htm

This website also mentions the "Saxon Shore" line of fortresses that dates from the late 3rd century, and that was presumably finished and used by Carausius to fend off a Roman invasion in Britain. It existed on both sides of the Channel.

As for Saxon settlements in France and Flanders, Bayeux was supposedly already a Saxon city immediately after the Romans left the region:

http://www.third-millennium-library.com/MedievalHistory/Fifth_Century/WESTERN-EUROPE_1.html

[rms2]

The source I am looking at, Celtic Britain, by Nora Chadwick, says the Saxon Shore forts were built by Carausius and Allectus but originally against attack from the sea by Romans (because Carausius was a usurper). It wasn't until the early 4th century under Constantius that they came to be thought of as primarily directed against the Saxons, but, either way, you're right. They were built earlier than I thought.

[rms2]

DF19 picked up a Swede this evening: Svensson, kit N11543.

It seems to be mostly continental thus far, at least judging by the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

[GoldenHind]

DF19 picked up a Swede this evening: Svensson, kit N11543.

It seems to be mostly continental thus far, at least judging by the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

Honestly I'm not surprised that DF19 appears to have a strong continental presence. Keep in mind though that of the three samples in the 1000 Genomes Project in which the SNP was first discovered, at least two were from Great Britain.

[verelst]

Honestly I'm not surprised that DF19 appears to have a strong continental presence. Keep in mind though that of the three samples in the 1000 Genomes Project in which the SNP was first discovered, at least two were from Great Britain.

DF19 is indeed also found in various British samples. On the continent it seems to be found mostly in Germanic regions. For me everything still points to a correlation with the migrations of the Saxons, who e.g. had ended up in England, Flanders and northern France by 800 AD, plus of course also stayed in their north-German homelands. I'd say northern Germany may well be the place where DF19 originated.

[rms2]

Time will tell. I wish we would starting getting some more DF19+ results so we could flesh the picture out a little.

[GoldenHind]

Honestly I'm not surprised that DF19 appears to have a strong continental presence. Keep in mind though that of the three samples in the 1000 Genomes Project in which the SNP was first discovered, at least two were from Great Britain.

DF19 is indeed also found in various British samples. On the continent it seems to be found mostly in Germanic regions. For me everything still points to a correlation with the migrations of the Saxons, who e.g. had ended up in England, Flanders and northern France by 800 AD, plus of course also stayed in their north-German homelands. I'd say northern Germany may well be the place where DF19 originated.

I think it is a more than a little early to start making these sort of connections. I don't think we have a good handle yet on either the age or distribution of DF19.

That being said, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there was a DF19 element among the Saxons.

Beware though that some people do not like any suggestion of a Germanic element in P312.

[rms2]

Honestly I'm not surprised that DF19 appears to have a strong continental presence. Keep in mind though that of the three samples in the 1000 Genomes Project in which the SNP was first discovered, at least two were from Great Britain.

DF19 is indeed also found in various British samples. On the continent it seems to be found mostly in Germanic regions. For me everything still points to a correlation with the migrations of the Saxons, who e.g. had ended up in England, Flanders and northern France by 800 AD, plus of course also stayed in their north-German homelands. I'd say northern Germany may well be the place where DF19 originated.

I think it is a more than a little early to start making these sort of connections. I don't think we have a good handle yet on either the age or distribution of DF19.

That being said, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there was a DF19 element among the Saxons.

Beware though that some people do not like any suggestion of a Germanic element in P312.

Really?

I haven't encountered that, but, then, I don't frequent dna-forums.

I've seen some objections to the idea that U106 is mostly Germanic, but not to the idea that P312 could be (and no doubt is) a combination of many things.

I know that here in the past Alan and I have both suggested that probably a substantial element of the P312* in Britain is Germanic. As I recall, its numbers seem to be highest in the old A-S areas. DF19 is probably a fair sized part of that.

[GoldenHind]

Honestly I'm not surprised that DF19 appears to have a strong continental presence. Keep in mind though that of the three samples in the 1000 Genomes Project in which the SNP was first discovered, at least two were from Great Britain.

DF19 is indeed also found in various British samples. On the continent it seems to be found mostly in Germanic regions. For me everything still points to a correlation with the migrations of the Saxons, who e.g. had ended up in England, Flanders and northern France by 800 AD, plus of course also stayed in their north-German homelands. I'd say northern Germany may well be the place where DF19 originated.

I think it is a more than a little early to start making these sort of connections. I don't think we have a good handle yet on either the age or distribution of DF19.

That being said, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there was a DF19 element among the Saxons.

Beware though that some people do not like any suggestion of a Germanic element in P312.

Really?

I haven't encountered that, but, then, I don't frequent dna-forums.

I've seen some objections to the idea that U106 is mostly Germanic, but not to the idea that P312 could be (and no doubt is) a combination of many things.

I know that here in the past Alan and I have both suggested that probably a substantial element of the P312* in Britain is Germanic. As I recall, its numbers seem to be highest in the old A-S areas. DF19 is probably a fair sized part of that.

Believe me, they exist. Just look at the Eupedia page by Maciamo, who for years has labeled P312 as Italo-Celtic.

There are a few idiots who even go so far as to insist all of R1b is Celtic.

As for P312* in England, I agree its distribution suggests a substantial part must have arrived with the Germanic incursions. However I suspect some part of it is more likely to be British. Maybe when all of P312's subclades are finally identified, we will get an answer to that question.

[sarkafarka6]

As for P312* in England, I agree its distribution suggests a substantial part must have arrived with the Germanic incursions. However I suspect some part of it is more likely to be British. Maybe when all of P312's subclades are finally identified, we will get an answer to that question.

I am afraid, I do not understant your view. If P312* is of the Germanic (Anglo-Sax)origin then the whole clade is of the Germanic origin and it is not possible that "...some part of it is more likely to be British". Do you think, that some P312 subclades originated in the Great Britain area? But even in such case the assumption of the Germanic origin would be still valid (on the level we are speaking about it here).  Could you spedify you view, please?

[rms2]

P312 and U106 predate Germanic languages, Celtic languages, etc., although they may not predate Proto-Indo-European. Thus, depending on where they were in Europe at the time, some P312+ could be Germanic, while the bulk of the rest of it might have been Italo-Celtic. Something similar is true of U106, as well. Most of it was probably Germanic speaking, but some of it could have been in areas where Italo-Celtic was spoken, some of it perhaps in places where Balto-Slavic was spoken.

Different P312+ subclades might be predominantly one thing or another, depending on their distribution. To take a pretty obvious example, L21 has a distribution that makes it plain it has a connection to Celtic speakers.

P312* is a paragroup that is getting whittled down as more and more new P312 SNPs are discovered, but it seems to me it is more common in the south and east of Britain (A-S regions) than it is in the west and north (Celtic regions).

[sarkafarka6]

P312 and U106 predate Germanic languages, Celtic languages, etc.........

Thank you for reminding of the time scale. As I am a beginner, I am still not familiar with the subject and I do not see, often, mutual relations between facts.

[GoldenHind]

As for P312* in England, I agree its distribution suggests a substantial part must have arrived with the Germanic incursions. However I suspect some part of it is more likely to be British. Maybe when all of P312's subclades are finally identified, we will get an answer to that question.

I am afraid, I do not understant your view. If P312* is of the Germanic (Anglo-Sax)origin then the whole clade is of the Germanic origin and it is not possible that "...some part of it is more likely to be British". Do you think, that some P312 subclades originated in the Great Britain area? But even in such case the assumption of the Germanic origin would be still valid (on the level we are speaking about it here).  Could you spedify you view, please?

Though I think Rich's answer above is a good, one, since you directed your question to me, I will try to answer it.

It is generally agreed that the Germanic people originated in Scandinavia and northern Germany in the culture referred to as the Nordic bronze Age.

Though there have been a number of migrations of various Germanic peoples out of Scandinavia, there hasn't been an enormous amount of migration into Scandinavia in modern times. Thus it is reasonable to look at the present composition of Scandinavia in an effort to determine the composition of the original Germanic people.

R1b appears to be about a third to a half of the male population of Scandinavia today, depending on the country. The composition of Scandinavian R1b varies from location to location there, but overall it appears to be roughly half U106 and half P312. There is no reason to believe this represents inward migration since the Bronze Age, though some have attempted to maintain that position.

Since we know that P312 is much older than the division of Europe into Celts and Germanics, it is reasonable to suppose that P312 was involved in the formation of both of those cultures. For instance, we know that the P312 subclade L238 is found almost exclusively in Scandinavia, while other P312 subclades are found in areas that were almost exclusively Celtic.

The only thing we know about P312* is that their subclade has not yet been discovered. Based on their current distribution, it seems probable that they are composed currently of groups which have very different histories and distributions. The strong presence of P312* in coastal Norway suggest that some of these P312*, like L238, are likely of Germanic origin. This is reinforced by the fact that much of the P312* in England is concentrated in areas known to have been heavily settled by Anglo-Saxons and Vikings. But since some P312* in Britain is also found in primarily Celtic areas, and it is highly unlikely that the large amount of P312* in Iberia is of Germanic origin, it is pretty clear that not all of what is currently classified as P312* is Germanic.

[Paul Van Gestel]

Hi,
 Today i received the result of the DF19 test.
 It is positive.
 So the full testline is:
 R1b1a2a1a1b
 
P312+ P310+ P25+ L51+ L150+ DF19+
U198- U152- U106- P89.2- P107- M65- M160- M153- M126- L6- L48- L47-
L44- L4- L325- L257- L226- L217- L21- L20- L2- L196- L193- L188- L176.2- L165-
L164- L159.2- L148- L144- L1-

My oldest ancester nown is Andreas Gerardi Andries, who lived in Sint Michielsgestel, Netherlands, and was born there in 1600.
Perhaps this result is helpfull to find the original livingarea of the DF19 tribe,
Paul
 

[verelst]

Hi Paul,

thank you for this message: as far as I know you are the 6th person with documented ancestry on the European continent who tests positive for DF19! The others are from Belgium (2), Germany (1), Czech Republic (1) and Sweden (1). From the British Isles at least another 9 independent families are known to be DF19+.

Based on your 12 STR marker values that I've been able to find online, your sample appears to be quite interesting: it is not closely related to any of the other known DF19+ samples. This indicates that your ancestor may have "branched off" long ago from the other DF19 lineages, perhaps even shortly after the origin of the DF19 mutation.

If you are interested in pursuing this research further, I would definitely recommend you to upgrade to 37, 67 or 111 STR markers, and to consider testing for the two major mutations that have recently been identified below DF19. These mutations are L644 and Z302, and both are now available at FT-DNA. Whatever the results would be, they would certainly provide us with valuable information about the history of the DF19 group!
 
  Best regards,

    Wim Verelst (DF19+ L644+).

Hi,
 Today i received the result of the DF19 test.
 It is positive.
 So the full testline is:
 R1b1a2a1a1b
 
P312+ P310+ P25+ L51+ L150+ DF19+
U198- U152- U106- P89.2- P107- M65- M160- M153- M126- L6- L48- L47-
L44- L4- L325- L257- L226- L217- L21- L20- L2- L196- L193- L188- L176.2- L165-
L164- L159.2- L148- L144- L1-

My oldest ancester nown is Andreas Gerardi Andries, who lived in Sint Michielsgestel, Netherlands, and was born there in 1600.
Perhaps this result is helpfull to find the original livingarea of the DF19 tribe,
Paul