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verelst
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« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2011, 02:10:09 PM »

What's the earliest record of Saxons raiding northern France?

The Menapian soldier Carausius was mentioned as a successful naval commander in the Roman fight against Frankish and Saxon pirates along the North Sea coasts (Belgica and Armorica), as early as 285 AD, before he started his own rebellion against Rome:    http://www.dot-domesday.me.uk/empires2.htm

This website also mentions the "Saxon Shore" line of fortresses that dates from the late 3rd century, and that was presumably finished and used by Carausius to fend off a Roman invasion in Britain. It existed on both sides of the Channel.

As for Saxon settlements in France and Flanders, Bayeux was supposedly already a Saxon city immediately after the Romans left the region:

http://www.third-millennium-library.com/MedievalHistory/Fifth_Century/WESTERN-EUROPE_1.html
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rms2
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« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2011, 05:55:47 PM »

The source I am looking at, Celtic Britain, by Nora Chadwick, says the Saxon Shore forts were built by Carausius and Allectus but originally against attack from the sea by Romans (because Carausius was a usurper). It wasn't until the early 4th century under Constantius that they came to be thought of as primarily directed against the Saxons, but, either way, you're right. They were built earlier than I thought.
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rms2
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« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2011, 09:07:07 PM »

DF19 picked up a Swede this evening: Svensson, kit N11543.

It seems to be mostly continental thus far, at least judging by the R-P312 and Subclades Project.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 09:07:34 PM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2011, 05:43:26 PM »

DF19 picked up a Swede this evening: Svensson, kit N11543.

It seems to be mostly continental thus far, at least judging by the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

Honestly I'm not surprised that DF19 appears to have a strong continental presence. Keep in mind though that of the three samples in the 1000 Genomes Project in which the SNP was first discovered, at least two were from Great Britain.
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verelst
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« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2011, 07:04:16 PM »

Honestly I'm not surprised that DF19 appears to have a strong continental presence. Keep in mind though that of the three samples in the 1000 Genomes Project in which the SNP was first discovered, at least two were from Great Britain.

DF19 is indeed also found in various British samples. On the continent it seems to be found mostly in Germanic regions. For me everything still points to a correlation with the migrations of the Saxons, who e.g. had ended up in England, Flanders and northern France by 800 AD, plus of course also stayed in their north-German homelands. I'd say northern Germany may well be the place where DF19 originated.
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rms2
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« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2011, 10:01:13 PM »

Time will tell. I wish we would starting getting some more DF19+ results so we could flesh the picture out a little.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2011, 12:25:42 AM »

Honestly I'm not surprised that DF19 appears to have a strong continental presence. Keep in mind though that of the three samples in the 1000 Genomes Project in which the SNP was first discovered, at least two were from Great Britain.

DF19 is indeed also found in various British samples. On the continent it seems to be found mostly in Germanic regions. For me everything still points to a correlation with the migrations of the Saxons, who e.g. had ended up in England, Flanders and northern France by 800 AD, plus of course also stayed in their north-German homelands. I'd say northern Germany may well be the place where DF19 originated.

I think it is a more than a little early to start making these sort of connections. I don't think we have a good handle yet on either the age or distribution of DF19.

That being said, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there was a DF19 element among the Saxons.

Beware though that some people do not like any suggestion of a Germanic element in P312.
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rms2
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« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2011, 09:13:28 AM »

Honestly I'm not surprised that DF19 appears to have a strong continental presence. Keep in mind though that of the three samples in the 1000 Genomes Project in which the SNP was first discovered, at least two were from Great Britain.

DF19 is indeed also found in various British samples. On the continent it seems to be found mostly in Germanic regions. For me everything still points to a correlation with the migrations of the Saxons, who e.g. had ended up in England, Flanders and northern France by 800 AD, plus of course also stayed in their north-German homelands. I'd say northern Germany may well be the place where DF19 originated.

I think it is a more than a little early to start making these sort of connections. I don't think we have a good handle yet on either the age or distribution of DF19.

That being said, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there was a DF19 element among the Saxons.

Beware though that some people do not like any suggestion of a Germanic element in P312.

Really?

I haven't encountered that, but, then, I don't frequent dna-forums.

I've seen some objections to the idea that U106 is mostly Germanic, but not to the idea that P312 could be (and no doubt is) a combination of many things.

I know that here in the past Alan and I have both suggested that probably a substantial element of the P312* in Britain is Germanic. As I recall, its numbers seem to be highest in the old A-S areas. DF19 is probably a fair sized part of that.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 09:14:09 AM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2011, 04:51:29 PM »

Honestly I'm not surprised that DF19 appears to have a strong continental presence. Keep in mind though that of the three samples in the 1000 Genomes Project in which the SNP was first discovered, at least two were from Great Britain.

DF19 is indeed also found in various British samples. On the continent it seems to be found mostly in Germanic regions. For me everything still points to a correlation with the migrations of the Saxons, who e.g. had ended up in England, Flanders and northern France by 800 AD, plus of course also stayed in their north-German homelands. I'd say northern Germany may well be the place where DF19 originated.

I think it is a more than a little early to start making these sort of connections. I don't think we have a good handle yet on either the age or distribution of DF19.

That being said, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there was a DF19 element among the Saxons.

Beware though that some people do not like any suggestion of a Germanic element in P312.

Really?

I haven't encountered that, but, then, I don't frequent dna-forums.

I've seen some objections to the idea that U106 is mostly Germanic, but not to the idea that P312 could be (and no doubt is) a combination of many things.

I know that here in the past Alan and I have both suggested that probably a substantial element of the P312* in Britain is Germanic. As I recall, its numbers seem to be highest in the old A-S areas. DF19 is probably a fair sized part of that.

Believe me, they exist. Just look at the Eupedia page by Maciamo, who for years has labeled P312 as Italo-Celtic.

There are a few idiots who even go so far as to insist all of R1b is Celtic.

As for P312* in England, I agree its distribution suggests a substantial part must have arrived with the Germanic incursions. However I suspect some part of it is more likely to be British. Maybe when all of P312's subclades are finally identified, we will get an answer to that question.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 05:48:29 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
sarkafarka6
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« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2011, 01:10:03 AM »


As for P312* in England, I agree its distribution suggests a substantial part must have arrived with the Germanic incursions. However I suspect some part of it is more likely to be British. Maybe when all of P312's subclades are finally identified, we will get an answer to that question.

I am afraid, I do not understant your view. If P312* is of the Germanic (Anglo-Sax)origin then the whole clade is of the Germanic origin and it is not possible that "...some part of it is more likely to be British". Do you think, that some P312 subclades originated in the Great Britain area? But even in such case the assumption of the Germanic origin would be still valid (on the level we are speaking about it here).  Could you spedify you view, please?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 01:15:56 AM by sarkafarka6 » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2011, 08:37:45 AM »

P312 and U106 predate Germanic languages, Celtic languages, etc., although they may not predate Proto-Indo-European. Thus, depending on where they were in Europe at the time, some P312+ could be Germanic, while the bulk of the rest of it might have been Italo-Celtic. Something similar is true of U106, as well. Most of it was probably Germanic speaking, but some of it could have been in areas where Italo-Celtic was spoken, some of it perhaps in places where Balto-Slavic was spoken.

Different P312+ subclades might be predominantly one thing or another, depending on their distribution. To take a pretty obvious example, L21 has a distribution that makes it plain it has a connection to Celtic speakers.

P312* is a paragroup that is getting whittled down as more and more new P312 SNPs are discovered, but it seems to me it is more common in the south and east of Britain (A-S regions) than it is in the west and north (Celtic regions).
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sarkafarka6
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« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2011, 09:18:24 AM »

P312 and U106 predate Germanic languages, Celtic languages, etc.........
Thank you for reminding of the time scale. As I am a beginner, I am still not familiar with the subject and I do not see, often, mutual relations between facts.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2011, 07:07:21 PM »


As for P312* in England, I agree its distribution suggests a substantial part must have arrived with the Germanic incursions. However I suspect some part of it is more likely to be British. Maybe when all of P312's subclades are finally identified, we will get an answer to that question.

I am afraid, I do not understant your view. If P312* is of the Germanic (Anglo-Sax)origin then the whole clade is of the Germanic origin and it is not possible that "...some part of it is more likely to be British". Do you think, that some P312 subclades originated in the Great Britain area? But even in such case the assumption of the Germanic origin would be still valid (on the level we are speaking about it here).  Could you spedify you view, please?

Though I think Rich's answer above is a good, one, since you directed your question to me, I will try to answer it.

It is generally agreed that the Germanic people originated in Scandinavia and northern Germany in the culture referred to as the Nordic bronze Age.

Though there have been a number of migrations of various Germanic peoples out of Scandinavia, there hasn't been an enormous amount of migration into Scandinavia in modern times. Thus it is reasonable to look at the present composition of Scandinavia in an effort to determine the composition of the original Germanic people.

R1b appears to be about a third to a half of the male population of Scandinavia today, depending on the country. The composition of Scandinavian R1b varies from location to location there, but overall it appears to be roughly half U106 and half P312. There is no reason to believe this represents inward migration since the Bronze Age, though some have attempted to maintain that position.

Since we know that P312 is much older than the division of Europe into Celts and Germanics, it is reasonable to suppose that P312 was involved in the formation of both of those cultures. For instance, we know that the P312 subclade L238 is found almost exclusively in Scandinavia, while other P312 subclades are found in areas that were almost exclusively Celtic.

The only thing we know about P312* is that their subclade has not yet been discovered. Based on their current distribution, it seems probable that they are composed currently of groups which have very different histories and distributions. The strong presence of P312* in coastal Norway suggest that some of these P312*, like L238, are likely of Germanic origin. This is reinforced by the fact that much of the P312* in England is concentrated in areas known to have been heavily settled by Anglo-Saxons and Vikings. But since some P312* in Britain is also found in primarily Celtic areas, and it is highly unlikely that the large amount of P312* in Iberia is of Germanic origin, it is pretty clear that not all of what is currently classified as P312* is Germanic.
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Paul Van Gestel
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« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2012, 05:37:36 AM »

Hi,
 Today i received the result of the DF19 test.
 It is positive.
 So the full testline is:
 R1b1a2a1a1b
 
P312+ P310+ P25+ L51+ L150+ DF19+
U198- U152- U106- P89.2- P107- M65- M160- M153- M126- L6- L48- L47-
L44- L4- L325- L257- L226- L217- L21- L20- L2- L196- L193- L188- L176.2- L165-
L164- L159.2- L148- L144- L1-

My oldest ancester nown is Andreas Gerardi Andries, who lived in Sint Michielsgestel, Netherlands, and was born there in 1600.
Perhaps this result is helpfull to find the original livingarea of the DF19 tribe,
Paul
 
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Paul R1b1a2a1a1b  P312+ P310+ P25+ L51+ L150+ DF19+ U198- U152- U106- P89.2- P107- M65- M160- M153- M126- L6- L48- L47- L44- L4- L325- L257- L226- L217- L21- L20- L2- L196- L193- L188- L176.2- L165- L164- L159.2- L148- L144- L1-  

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« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2012, 10:14:54 AM »

Hi Paul,

thank you for this message: as far as I know you are the 6th person with documented ancestry on the European continent who tests positive for DF19! The others are from Belgium (2), Germany (1), Czech Republic (1) and Sweden (1). From the British Isles at least another 9 independent families are known to be DF19+.

Based on your 12 STR marker values that I've been able to find online, your sample appears to be quite interesting: it is not closely related to any of the other known DF19+ samples. This indicates that your ancestor may have "branched off" long ago from the other DF19 lineages, perhaps even shortly after the origin of the DF19 mutation.

If you are interested in pursuing this research further, I would definitely recommend you to upgrade to 37, 67 or 111 STR markers, and to consider testing for the two major mutations that have recently been identified below DF19. These mutations are L644 and Z302, and both are now available at FT-DNA. Whatever the results would be, they would certainly provide us with valuable information about the history of the DF19 group!
 
  Best regards,

    Wim Verelst (DF19+ L644+).


Hi,
 Today i received the result of the DF19 test.
 It is positive.
 So the full testline is:
 R1b1a2a1a1b
 
P312+ P310+ P25+ L51+ L150+ DF19+
U198- U152- U106- P89.2- P107- M65- M160- M153- M126- L6- L48- L47-
L44- L4- L325- L257- L226- L217- L21- L20- L2- L196- L193- L188- L176.2- L165-
L164- L159.2- L148- L144- L1-

My oldest ancester nown is Andreas Gerardi Andries, who lived in Sint Michielsgestel, Netherlands, and was born there in 1600.
Perhaps this result is helpfull to find the original livingarea of the DF19 tribe,
Paul
 

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freywill
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« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2013, 02:05:26 PM »

Not sure if anyone is still following this series of notes, but I've just got back my results from the Genographic Project and have R-DF19 as my paternal lineage.  I am not generally active in following developments in this area, although I see that there have been few documented DF-19's, so thought I'd add one more to the mix.  I can trace my family back to Germany (ancestors arrived in the US in 1727 from Weiler, Germany).  Some additional data suggests the family (surname: FREY) originally came from Switzerland near Zurich some time in the 1600's.
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Kentface
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« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2013, 09:10:49 AM »

I've just registered with this forum to say that my recent Y DNA results showed that my paternal line is positive for DF19. That line, suname Kent, I can trace back to a William in the 17th century and for much of the time since then, the family have been lightermen and watermen on the Thames, as documented in the relevant Guild's records.
I will be interested to see how this story develops
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satu
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« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2014, 08:36:34 PM »

I registered especially for this thread. My father got his results back from the Genographic Project 2.0 and it turns out he is R-DF19. My paternal line all come from north of The Netherlands (Groningen, Friesland area) and northern Germany around the Elbe. I'm not sure if this helps anything to find out the possible origin of R-DF19, his first reference group was: Danish and the second reference group: German. I will definitely keep an eye on this thread to learn more.
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verelst
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« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2014, 05:46:54 PM »

Thank you for announcing your DF19+ result on this forum, I see it’s high time for an update! At this moment we have already identified more than 50 distinct families carrying the DF19 mutation in their Y-chromosome. About 20 of them have ancestors on the European continent, and the rest have their origins in the British Isles. On the continent DF19 has so far been found in Sweden, Finland, Germany, the Czech Republic, Belgium, the Netherlands, France (Normandy),  and even one specific case in Italy (presumably dating back to the time of the Norman kingdom of Sicily, in the 11th and 12th century).

Comparison of the STR profiles of all these samples suggests that the DF19 mutation originated about 2000 – 2500 years ago, most likely in Scandinavia or northern Germany, and as such it would have been present among various Germanic people in the following centuries (including the Saxons, Frisians, Franks), and among their descendants in later times. An important new development is the discovery of subclades below DF19, defined by specific SNPs. Most of these are so new that they are not yet recognised by the Geno2.0 test. At the highest level, just below DF19 in the haplotree, DF88 and Z302 have been identified. Both these mutations appear to be almost as old as DF19 itself, and so far none of the DF19+ samples has been found to be negative for both (i.e. all tested DF19+ men are so far either DF88+ or Z302+). So far five samples have tested positive for Z302, and the rest is DF88+. Below DF88, three other SNPs have so far been found: L644, L719 and L1199. L644 appears to be the biggest of these subclades below DF88, and the L644 mutation probably originated in northern Germany or Denmark, roughly between the 5th and 8th century AD. In the British Isles, L644 appears to be indicative of Norman ancestry (I suspect they were descendants of Danish Vikings who had settled in Normandy in the 10th century, and crossed to England in or after 1066), but we’ll need more samples to further support this hypothesis. L719 has only been found in 3 samples and we have no clues yet about its age or distribution, and L1199 is a mutation that probably arose in the (early) Middle Ages and that is mostly found in Scotland, presumably among descendants of Viking settlers. Many of the identified DF19+ samples are still DF88* (i.e. positive for DF19 and DF88, but negative for L644, L719 and L1199), but hopefully more SNPs will be identified in the near future. No less than 30 DF19+ samples are currently taking the Big-Y test offered by FTDNA (in which the Y-chromosome of specific customers is scanned for SNPs, including previously unknown ones), and the first results will hopefully become available next month.

An overview of the current DF19 haplotree can be found here:

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

For all DF19+ men: if you are interested in these developments and would like to contribute to expanding our knowledge, please consider joining the “P312 and Subclades Project” at FTDNA. I am one of the volunteer co-administrators of this project and one of two coordinators of the DF19 subclade. We are trying to gather all DF19+ samples in our project, to be able to have a full overview of the genetic diversity within this subclade. We do our best to properly advise each member on further tests that may be worthwhile in their specific cases, to find out more about their own ancestors and their old connections to other families. Even if you’re not an FTDNA customer yet, you can transfer your Geno2.0 results to an FTDNA account, as explained here:

http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=3#326

Subsequently you can join the “P312 and Subclades Project” here:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/

If you have specific questions, you can also send me a private message on this forum and I’ll do my best to advise you.

     Wim.
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Kim Salisbury
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« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2014, 12:13:27 AM »

Hello,
I have just got my father's results back from his Genographic 2.0 dna test and his Y-dna haplogroup is R-DF19, so I googled it and came across this site. I have been reading the posts with interest. Unfortunately, I don't think I can help with the origins of this subclade. I have researched my father's patrilineal line back to 1740 in Bedfordshire, England. But there was a family rumour that my grandfather was actually the result of an affair and his father may actually have been of German background. Therefore I don't know if my father's y-dna is British or German. According to the Genographic 2.0 results his first reference population is German and his second is Greek! I was wondering if there is anyone who is also R-DF19 whose first reference population match is, in fact, British (or don't they have that as a reference population?)
Looking forward to reading more.
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All the best,
Kim Salisbury
rms2
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« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2014, 09:13:27 PM »

I am not an expert on DF19, but as I recall thus far it appears to be a North German/Netherlands clade, which may indicate that in England it came over with the Anglo-Saxons.
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randyandrew
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« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2014, 09:36:38 AM »

Okay, just took a look at my haplogroup @ FTDNA and see that there is a L719 SNP test available under DF19.

Wonder why it wasn't part of the Big Y?

Is it one that we DF19's should participate in?
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FTDNA: 55699
YSearch: XCTSR

R1b1a2a1a1b5 (ISOGG/27JUN12)
R1b1a2a1a1b5a (ISOGG/18JUL12) R-L644

P312+ DF19+ +L644 U152- U106- SRY2627- M65- M153- L21- L20- L2- L176.2- L165-

ILLUMINA PF
91.15% European (Western European)
7.61% Middle East

HVR1 results:
Halogroup H. HVR1 differences from rCRS: 16079T 16278T 16519C HVR1 differences from RSRS: C16079T A16129G T16187C C16189T T16223C G16230A C16311T
HVR2 differences rCRS: 262A 263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C NHV2 differences from RSRS: G73A C146T C152 T C195T A247G C262a 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C
verelst
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« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2014, 09:51:44 AM »

Okay, just took a look at my haplogroup @ FTDNA and see that there is a L719 SNP test available under DF19.

Wonder why it wasn't part of the Big Y?

Is it one that we DF19's should participate in?

Hi Randy,

no need for you to take the L719 test, it was tested in Big-Y and you are definitely negative for it! The L719 subclade branched off from the rest before the origin of L644, and you belong to the L644 subclade. All L644+ samples are thus negative for L719. I have really no idea why L719 is now suddenly listed in the FTDNA haplotree below DF19, but none of the other previously known subclades...

Later this week you and all other Big-Y testers within our DF19 group will receive a detailed report from me by e-mail, in which the new developments and Big-Y results will all be explained. This report will also include the new haplotree below DF19, which I managed to compile based on the many Big-Y test results in our group.

   Best regards,

      Wim.
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randyandrew
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« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2014, 02:08:49 PM »

Wim,

Thanks! Look forward to your email.
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FTDNA: 55699
YSearch: XCTSR

R1b1a2a1a1b5 (ISOGG/27JUN12)
R1b1a2a1a1b5a (ISOGG/18JUL12) R-L644

P312+ DF19+ +L644 U152- U106- SRY2627- M65- M153- L21- L20- L2- L176.2- L165-

ILLUMINA PF
91.15% European (Western European)
7.61% Middle East

HVR1 results:
Halogroup H. HVR1 differences from rCRS: 16079T 16278T 16519C HVR1 differences from RSRS: C16079T A16129G T16187C C16189T T16223C G16230A C16311T
HVR2 differences rCRS: 262A 263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C NHV2 differences from RSRS: G73A C146T C152 T C195T A247G C262a 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C
randyandrew
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« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2014, 02:46:27 PM »

Wim,

Got the email this weekend and want to thank you for taking the time and providing us with detailed information regarding our subclade!!!

Although I'm still conducting the traditional research in tracing my American ancestor back to Scotland, to find out that genetically I connect to a male ancestor that lived around 300 BC in the Denmark/Northern Germany region is just plain phenomenal. 

Best regards!

Randy
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FTDNA: 55699
YSearch: XCTSR

R1b1a2a1a1b5 (ISOGG/27JUN12)
R1b1a2a1a1b5a (ISOGG/18JUL12) R-L644

P312+ DF19+ +L644 U152- U106- SRY2627- M65- M153- L21- L20- L2- L176.2- L165-

ILLUMINA PF
91.15% European (Western European)
7.61% Middle East

HVR1 results:
Halogroup H. HVR1 differences from rCRS: 16079T 16278T 16519C HVR1 differences from RSRS: C16079T A16129G T16187C C16189T T16223C G16230A C16311T
HVR2 differences rCRS: 262A 263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C NHV2 differences from RSRS: G73A C146T C152 T C195T A247G C262a 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C
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