Z196 and the history of P312

[rms2]

I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.

If you know of any who can trace their ancestry to Normandy or the Channel Islands, encourage them to join the Normandy Y-DNA Project. Thus far, the only Z196+ person we have is a single R-L176.2 whose ancestor came from Trinite-du-Mont.

Keep in mind, though, that to join the Normandy Y-DNA Project, one has to actually be able to trace his y-dna ancestry to Normandy or the Channel Islands.

[Mikewww]

I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.

What are the odds the higher frequency in England is due to Anglo-Saxons?

[samIsaack]

I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.

What are the odds the higher frequency in England is due to Anglo-Saxons?

I'd say they're pretty low.. DF27/Z196 has been in the Isles for a very long time.. Probably arriving with the L21 horde. Infact, I wouldn't be too surprised if DF27 didn't represent the oldest strain of P312 in the Isles.

Of course many will regard that as blasphemy, because we all know that DF27 is completly and totally Iberian and only recently made its way from there.

[Jdean]

I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.

What are the odds the higher frequency in England is due to Anglo-Saxons?

I'd say they're pretty low.. DF27/Z196 has been in the Isles for a very long time.. Probably arriving with the L21 horde. Infact, I wouldn't be too surprised if DF27 didn't represent the oldest strain of P312 in the Isles.

Of course many will regard that as blasphemy, because we all know that DF27 is completly and totally Iberian and only recently made its way from there.

Spanish Monks ?   ;)

[Mikewww]

I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.

What are the odds the higher frequency in England is due to Anglo-Saxons?

I'd say they're pretty low.. DF27/Z196 has been in the Isles for a very long time.. Probably arriving with the L21 horde. Infact, I wouldn't be too surprised if DF27 didn't represent the oldest strain of P312 in the Isles.

Of course many will regard that as blasphemy, because we all know that DF27 is completly and totally Iberian and only recently made its way from there.

I don't know about that.  We have DF27/Z196 in Northern Europe. Z196 is no more diverse in England than U106 so we don't have a great reason to say Z196 got there first.

We just think U106 arrived late with the Anglo-Saxons. That very well could be, but i don't see why some other haplogroups wouldn't have come along side like I1, and R1a1 .... and .. and Z196.  

I'm not saying Z196 was a majority group nor that some Z196 couldn't have gotten there earlier than Anglo-Saxons but I don't know whey they couldn't have been included...   if they are of higher frequency in S/SE England that other parts of the Isles.  I don't really know that. Is that certain?

We need more of these P312 U152- L21- guys to test for DF27 and then Z196, etc.

[samIsaack]

I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.

What are the odds the higher frequency in England is due to Anglo-Saxons?

I'd say they're pretty low.. DF27/Z196 has been in the Isles for a very long time.. Probably arriving with the L21 horde. Infact, I wouldn't be too surprised if DF27 didn't represent the oldest strain of P312 in the Isles.

Of course many will regard that as blasphemy, because we all know that DF27 is completly and totally Iberian and only recently made its way from there.

Spanish Monks ?   ;)

Just like their cousins, the "Randy Irish Monks"?!

[samIsaack]

I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.

What are the odds the higher frequency in England is due to Anglo-Saxons?

I'd say they're pretty low.. DF27/Z196 has been in the Isles for a very long time.. Probably arriving with the L21 horde. Infact, I wouldn't be too surprised if DF27 didn't represent the oldest strain of P312 in the Isles.

Of course many will regard that as blasphemy, because we all know that DF27 is completly and totally Iberian and only recently made its way from there.

I don't know about that.  We have DF27/Z196 in Northern Europe. Z196 is no more diverse in England than U106 so we don't have a great reason to say Z196 go there first.

We just think U106 arrived late with the Anglo-Saxons. That very well could be, but i don't see why some other haplogroups wouldn't have come along side like I1, and R1a1 .... and .. and Z196.  

I'm not saying Z196 was a majority group nor that some Z196 couldn't have gotten there earlier than Anglo-Saxons but I don't know whey they couldn't have been included...   if they are of higher frequency in S/SE England that other parts of the Isles.

We need more of these P312 U152- L21- guys to test for DF27 and then Z196, etc.

Well, anytime I or anyone else has ever suggested that DF27 had a Northern European element to it, we are usually and often immediately reminded of the Iberian frequencies.. So you'll understand that I'm a little hesitant to mention that possibility.

I was mostly referring to DF27* not Z196 with regards to being old in the Isles..

[Jdean]

Well, anytime I or anyone else has ever suggested that DF27 had a Northern European element to it, we are usually and often immediately reminded of the Iberian frequencies.. So you'll understand that I'm a little hesitant to mention that possibility.

I was mostly referring to DF27* not Z196 with regards to being old in the Isles..

Any idea what the stats are on DF27+ v DF27- ? Judging by Ymap P312** look to be a tad more common than L21** but I've not been following the results as closely

[Mikewww]

Well, anytime I or anyone else has ever suggested that DF27 had a Northern European element to it, we are usually and often immediately reminded of the Iberian frequencies.. So you'll understand that I'm a little hesitant to mention that possibility.

I was mostly referring to DF27* not Z196 with regards to being old in the Isles..

If had my druthers, I'd like to see all P312* test for DF27 and all L21 test for DF13.  Then we'd really know something about their patterns.

Any idea what the stats are on DF27+ v DF27- ? Judging by Ymap P312** look to be a tad more common than L21** but I've not been following the results as closely

If had my way all P312* would test for DF27 and all L21* would test for DF13. Then we'd really see what the pattern is.

[Castlebob]

I gather that there are 6 or 7 of us who are as follows:

L21-  L176.2-  Z196-  DF27-  DF19-  L238-

I'm as above, and am expecting my DF19 score soon. One of my suname (Armstrong) who I match quite closely to has already tested L238-.

Of interest to me is that Armstrong, MacFarlane, Williams, Jones & Hatton are some of the surnames as described above. (Hatton hasn't tested for L238 yet, but I'm told he will likely be negative). The first two are found in Kingdom of Strathclyde/Kingdom of Rheged Brythonic Celt territory, with Jones & Williams being associated heavily within Wales. Hatton could also have arisen in those regions, too.

Cheers,
Bob

[Jdean]

Well, anytime I or anyone else has ever suggested that DF27 had a Northern European element to it, we are usually and often immediately reminded of the Iberian frequencies.. So you'll understand that I'm a little hesitant to mention that possibility.

I was mostly referring to DF27* not Z196 with regards to being old in the Isles..

If had my druthers, I'd like to see all P312* test for DF27 and all L21 test for DF13.  Then we'd really know something about their patterns.

Any idea what the stats are on DF27+ v DF27- ? Judging by Ymap P312** look to be a tad more common than L21** but I've not been following the results as closely

If had my way all P312* would test for DF27 and all L21* would test for DF13. Then we'd really see what the pattern is.

I'd add U106* via Z381 & Z18 to that list.

I wish U106 and P312 * folk were as enthusiastic towards SNP testing as L21.

[samIsaack]

I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.

What are the odds the higher frequency in England is due to Anglo-Saxons?

I'd say they're pretty low.. DF27/Z196 has been in the Isles for a very long time.. Probably arriving with the L21 horde. Infact, I wouldn't be too surprised if DF27 didn't represent the oldest strain of P312 in the Isles.

Of course many will regard that as blasphemy, because we all know that DF27 is completly and totally Iberian and only recently made its way from there.

I don't know about that.  We have DF27/Z196 in Northern Europe. Z196 is no more diverse in England than U106 so we don't have a great reason to say Z196 got there first.

We just think U106 arrived late with the Anglo-Saxons. That very well could be, but i don't see why some other haplogroups wouldn't have come along side like I1, and R1a1 .... and .. and Z196.  

I'm not saying Z196 was a majority group nor that some Z196 couldn't have gotten there earlier than Anglo-Saxons but I don't know whey they couldn't have been included...   if they are of higher frequency in S/SE England that other parts of the Isles.  I don't really know that. Is that certain?

We need more of these P312 U152- L21- guys to test for DF27 and then Z196, etc.

Heres something interesting.. As I mentioned a few post back I have been studying my Isaack family history and it seems a new possibility has arisen..

Another researcher has recently discovered an Isaack family from Norfolk, England while going through Baptism/Christening records for the 1538-1970 time period.. A Samuel Isaack is found to have been baptised in 1674, his Father John Isaack in 1625 and his Father.. Magnes Isaack's marriage record of 1620.. Its my families current belief that Samuel was born in 1685, but this is an educated guess.

This John Isaack apparently remarried and his son Samuel, whom I'm assuming may be my ancestor, was born of that marriage. If this turns out to be true and my knowledge of Scandinavian forenames is correct, I'm assuming Magnes is an altered spelling of Magnus, then it appears my family may have been Norse in origins. Another interesting factor to add to this is the world surname profiler.. if you type in "Isaack" you will see that the region with the highest occurance of that spelling is South Jutland, Denmark. I'm guessing the surname was at one point Isaackssen or something similar.

http://worldnames.publicprofiler.org/Main.aspx

Factor in the recent discovery of SRY2627 in Denmark and Southern Sweden from the old Norway study and this theory isn't that far from the realm of possibility.

[Castlebob]

You might  consider looking into land reclamation as a reason for many coming to Norfolk, Sam. I know that many Jacobite prisoners were sent to Norfolk to build waterways that drained the Fens. Also, many experts from Lowland countries helped with the work. I believe parts of Denmark were reclaimed, so perhaps your ancestors were amongst them?
Cheers,
Bob

[samIsaack]

You might  consider looking into land recalmation as a reason for many coming to Norfolk, Sam. I know that many Jacobite prisoners were sent to Norfolk to build waterways that drained the Fens. Also, many experts from Lowland countries helped with the work. I believe parts of Denmark were reclaimed, so perhaps your ancestors were amongst them?
Cheers,
Bob

Thanks, Bob, for the suggestion! I'm a bit wet behind the ears with regards to this type of background research. Up until yesterday I had accepted the family as being Scottish/Ulster-Scots.. Obviously nothing has been proven yet, but this is a stronger case than the one I was going with. No one else that I'm aware of is claiming descent from this family.. I'm nearly positive that my ancestor, Samuel, was an indentured servant or a criminal.. as I've seen lists for Maryland, which include a Samuel Isaack from Norfolk if I'm not mistaken. These were for English people and in my ignorance, I ignored these because they weren't saying Scotland.

Live and learn!

 

[Castlebob]

The Duke of Bedford used Scottish prisoners to help develop the Fens & build waterways in Norfolk Sam. Do you know the religion of your earliest ancestor? He may have been a Covenanter.Some stayed in East Anglia following their release.
As you know, the Highland & Border clearances saw Scots heading to Ulster & beyond. Many going/getting sent to N America.
Another big cause of prisoner movement followed the Battle of Worcester. Some Royalist prisoners were transported to America.
Apologies if you have all that, but there's usually a major reason for people moving from one part of the country to another - & definitely when going overseas!
Cheers,
Bob
PS I used to have a list of Scottish prisoners somewhere. I'll see if I can find it

[Castlebob]

Just confirming that my DF19 result is in, and it's negative. A core group of my surname is L238-, so no need for me to test that.
Any recommendations for further testing? I'm L21- L176.2-  Z196-  DF27-  DF19-
Cheers,
Bob

[Castlebob]

I've just ordered two tests: Z245 & L459. I'd guess negative for both.
Cheers,
Bob

[Mikewww]

L165 (S68) was originally called a "Norse" subclade by the old EthnoAncestry group because of its ties between Scandinavian and the north of Scotland and a particular surname there.
http://www.myheritage.com/dna-surname-project/R-L165

L165 is a brother to SRY2627 underneath of L176.2, which is a descedant of Z196.

L165 could be quite old, and I now have come to the conclusion it is.

These three L165+ folks are had to cluster with any of the others. I use a fairly lenient GD method and I have each of these guys at no closer than a GD of 18 to each other or any other member of L165.

f170048   Brownson England
f156064   Cardoza Spain
f226939   Lewis zzCountry

Any thoughts?

Cardoza is also Ysearch G3MTK and I see there the origin is listed as London, so I don't know what to think of that.

[rms2]

I have yet to see more than one Scandinavian who is L165+. I know we talked about this before, and Dr. Jim Wilson's name and his opinion came up, but I am still wondering where all the Scandinavian L165s are.

[samIsaack]

L165 (S68) was originally called a "Norse" subclade by the old EthnoAncestry group because of its ties between Scandinavian and the north of Scotland and a particular surname there.
http://www.myheritage.com/dna-surname-project/R-L165

L165 is a brother to SRY2627 underneath of L176.2, which is a descedant of Z196.

L165 could be quite old, and I now have come to the conclusion it is.

These three L165+ folks are had to cluster with any of the others. I use a fairly lenient GD method and I have each of these guys at no closer than a GD of 18 to each other or any other member of L165.

f170048   Brownson England
f156064   Cardoza Spain
f226939   Lewis zzCountry

Any thoughts?

Cardoza is also Ysearch G3MTK and I see there the origin is listed as London, so I don't know what to think of that.

I still find it funny that everyone thought it may have been a "Norse" marker up until it was discovered to sit so close to the "Iberian" marker, SRY2627.

I often wonder if SRY2627 had first been discovered amongst a few of the British or rather Scottish and Scandinavian samples, if we wouldn't be calling it a similar name.. Celtic, Norse.. whatever.

It seems now we have a Spanish sample.. and of course this means that L165 is officially Iberian. It is a bit odd that he would list his surname and ancestry to England.. whenever his Paternal surname seems to be Cardoza.. Maybe he was told that his marker was indicative of Norse ancestry and Carr was the closest thing to Cardoza?

To tell you the truth, I'm surprised its taken this long for a Spanish L165 to pop up. Given SRY2627's wide range, I just never really accepted L165 as a soley Nordic marker. Especially if it is only slightly younger than SRY2627.. this of course brings up old memories of SRY2627 and the effort and subsequent discovery via variance runs that the L176.2 family probably arose in France. I think thats the safest designation for this group.. A good central launch point for the spread we see today.

[razyn]

I use a fairly lenient GD method and I have each of these guys at no closer than a GD of 18 to each other or any other member of L165.

I see those three (maybe everybody in the spreadsheet) have 67 markers tested.  Is that the normal sort of GD, off by 18 or more at 67 -- or is it something else, extra lenient?

I'm interested in getting some kind of date for Z220, and also for my little cluster of L484 under Z220.  We now have at least one representative of each of the four identified family groups showing in group Pabd of the FTDNA "R-P312 and Subclades" project; but the haplotypes are of many different lengths, and it's hard to compare a GD of 9 at 37 with a GD of 16 at 67, or 33 at 95, or whatever.  (This is in Ysearch, but doesn't have to be.)

Also, I don't understand why the Modal for every subclade adjusts to itself.  Seems to me it would be more helpful to keep the modal of the parent branch for its several subclades.  The colorized results lose their distinctive coloration, if every level down gets its own new modal.  I like to use PEMD5 for comparisons in Ysearch -- and would like to see some similar standard model in the regular R-P312 and Subclades project.  Would that require overriding some default setting in the site software?

[NealtheRed]

I have yet to see more than one Scandinavian who is L165+. I know we talked about this before, and Dr. Jim Wilson's name and his opinion came up, but I am still wondering where all the Scandinavian L165s are.

I know the Clan MacLeod DNA Project has done some considerable research in L165, since the "core" related group appears to be L165+. The clan's base was within areas known for Norse settlement: the Isle of Lewis and Isle of Skye are at least two with strong MacLeod affiliations.

They also claim descent from Olaf the Black, but who knows how accurate all this stuff is: http://www.clanmacleod.org/about-macleods.html.

[ArmandoR1b]

L165 (S68) was originally called a "Norse" subclade by the old EthnoAncestry group because of its ties between Scandinavian and the north of Scotland and a particular surname there.
http://www.myheritage.com/dna-surname-project/R-L165

L165 is a brother to SRY2627 underneath of L176.2, which is a descedant of Z196.

L165 could be quite old, and I now have come to the conclusion it is.

These three L165+ folks are had to cluster with any of the others. I use a fairly lenient GD method and I have each of these guys at no closer than a GD of 18 to each other or any other member of L165.

f170048   Brownson England
f156064   Cardoza Spain
f226939   Lewis zzCountry

Any thoughts?

Cardoza is also Ysearch G3MTK and I see there the origin is listed as London, so I don't know what to think of that.

I looked up Ysearch G3MTK and it mentions the names Abraham Nunes Cardoza and Isaac Nunes Cardoso. In Spanish naming convention the first surname is the paternal surname and the second is the maternal surname. However there are also compound surnames that can be transmitted through the male line and that is what it looks like happened since I have found many references to the Nunes Cardoso line. The spelling is irrelevent, Nunes and Nuñez are the same and Cardoso/Cardozo/Cardoza/Cardozo are the same.
Now on to the genealogy. Most of what exists online about the Nuñez Cardoso family refers to Spanish Sephardic origins and how some of them moved to England and then the U.S. Since Jewish heritage is matrilineal they were allowed to marry non Jews and still be considered Jewish. This would explain how there are Jews with Franco-Spanish Y-DNA and it also explains Cardoza Ysearch G3MTK origin listed as London.

There is an interesting article on the (Nuñez) Cardoza family at http://www.scribd.com/doc/22508994/Cardoza-Family-History

[Mikewww]

I have yet to see more than one Scandinavian who is L165+. I know we talked about this before, and Dr. Jim Wilson's name and his opinion came up, but I am still wondering where all the Scandinavian L165s are.

I know the Clan MacLeod DNA Project has done some considerable research in L165, since the "core" related group appears to be L165+. The clan's base was within areas known for Norse settlement: the Isle of Lewis and Isle of Skye are at least two with strong MacLeod affiliations.

They also claim descent from Olaf the Black, but who knows how accurate all this stuff is: http://www.clanmacleod.org/about-macleods.html.

There are a good number of people from England in this L165 group to go with one from Germany and one from Sweden. The main surnames from England are Terrill and Ayton..  however, the grouop is  clearly dominated by people from the north of Scotland, particularly along the Hebrides.... the main surnames are MacLeod, MacNeil, MacDonald and Bell/Beall.

For the most part, they are conspicuously missing from Ireland so they must have been out of the way from the main the Ulster/Strathclyde interchanges.

The guy in Sweden is a GD of 15 to the rest, at his closest peer so I think he could easily be separated from the rest by 1500-2200 years.

There is no one from much of any location south other possibly this Cordoza from Spain or London.

[NealtheRed]

I have yet to see more than one Scandinavian who is L165+. I know we talked about this before, and Dr. Jim Wilson's name and his opinion came up, but I am still wondering where all the Scandinavian L165s are.

I know the Clan MacLeod DNA Project has done some considerable research in L165, since the "core" related group appears to be L165+. The clan's base was within areas known for Norse settlement: the Isle of Lewis and Isle of Skye are at least two with strong MacLeod affiliations.

They also claim descent from Olaf the Black, but who knows how accurate all this stuff is: http://www.clanmacleod.org/about-macleods.html.

There are a good number of people from England in this L165 group to go with one from Germany and one from Sweden. The main surnames from England are Terrill and Ayton..  however, the grouop is  clearly dominated by people from the north of Scotland, particularly along the Hebrides.... the main surnames are MacLeod, MacNeil, MacDonald and Bell/Beall.

For the most part, they are conspicuously missing from Ireland so they must have been out of the way from the main the Ulster/Strathclyde interchanges.

The guy in Sweden is a GD of 15 to the rest, at his closest peer so I think he could easily be separated from the rest by 1500-2200 years.

There is no one from much of any location south other possibly this Cordoza from Spain or London.

Dr. Wilson must have access to more Scandinavian L165 haplotypes, at least that is how I think he comes to such a hypothesis about it. It is fairly localized to those Hebridean clans (which makes sense considering Western Isles history), and as you said, some folks in England and on the Continent.

The Spanish one is definitely a treat. How old is L165?