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Author Topic: Z196 and the history of P312  (Read 21769 times)
Jdean
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« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2011, 07:03:26 PM »

As you said, it looks like Z196 is mostly limited to the N-S Cluster, the M153+ guys, and the L176.2+ guys, with very few exceptions.

That's a set of data that's just begging for an interclade variance calculation, anybody done that yet?
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rms2
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« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2011, 07:05:13 PM »

As you said, it looks like Z196 is mostly limited to the N-S Cluster, the M153+ guys, and the L176.2+ guys, with very few exceptions.

That's a set of data that's just begging for an interclade variance calculation, anybody done that yet?

Not that I am aware of.
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Jdean
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« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2011, 08:06:58 PM »

As you said, it looks like Z196 is mostly limited to the N-S Cluster, the M153+ guys, and the L176.2+ guys, with very few exceptions.

That's a set of data that's just begging for an interclade variance calculation, anybody done that yet?

Not that I am aware of.

Well I don't have a driving licence for this software but I popped the Qa. R-Z196 (L176.2-) from the R-P312 project into Ken Nordtvedt's spreadsheet and compared them against Qc. R-M167 (SRY2627).

Results 178 generations +/- 25 generation
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rms2
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« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2011, 08:09:17 PM »

As you said, it looks like Z196 is mostly limited to the N-S Cluster, the M153+ guys, and the L176.2+ guys, with very few exceptions.

That's a set of data that's just begging for an interclade variance calculation, anybody done that yet?

Not that I am aware of.

Well I don't have a driving licence for this software but I popped the Qa. R-Z196 (L176.2-) from the R-P312 project into Ken Nordtvedt's spreadsheet and compared them against Qc. R-M167 (SRY2627).

Results 178 generations +/- 25 generation

What does he use for a generation, 25 years?
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Jdean
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« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2011, 08:14:57 PM »

As you said, it looks like Z196 is mostly limited to the N-S Cluster, the M153+ guys, and the L176.2+ guys, with very few exceptions.

That's a set of data that's just begging for an interclade variance calculation, anybody done that yet?

Not that I am aware of.

Well I don't have a driving licence for this software but I popped the Qa. R-Z196 (L176.2-) from the R-P312 project into Ken Nordtvedt's spreadsheet and compared them against Qc. R-M167 (SRY2627).

Results 178 generations +/- 25 generation

What does he use for a generation, 25 years?

I don't know if Ken gets draw into that argument, personally I favour 30 but either way that's old.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2011, 04:14:23 PM »

By the way, am I right in saying that Z196 has divided S116/P312 into three i.e. all S116 people are descended from three men - Mr L21, Mr U152 and Mr Z196?       

No Z196 appears to be cleaving S116/P312* in half, much like L21 did before, however most of the Z196+ for S116/P312* individuals (but not all) are NS folks. There are bunch of SNPs identified in the 1000 Genome project downstream of Z196 which it is thought will help further define NS

P312 Structure


You are both forgetting Mr. L238.  There are also two other newly identified SNPs below P312 which I believe remain untested: DF19, which apparently is primarily northwestern, and Z225, which is primarily Iberian. This is according to the same individuals who identified Z196.
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Jdean
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« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2011, 06:18:41 PM »

You are both forgetting Mr. L238.  There are also two other newly identified SNPs below P312 which I believe remain untested: DF19, which apparently is primarily northwestern, and Z225, which is primarily Iberian. This is according to the same individuals who identified Z196.

Yep, I wonder when FTDNA are going to get round to them. It's almost hard work just trying to keep track of all these new SNPs !!
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 06:19:22 PM by Jdean » Logged

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GoldenHind
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« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2011, 07:28:15 PM »

You are both forgetting Mr. L238.  There are also two other newly identified SNPs below P312 which I believe remain untested: DF19, which apparently is primarily northwestern, and Z225, which is primarily Iberian. This is according to the same individuals who identified Z196.

Yep, I wonder when FTDNA are going to get round to them. It's almost hard work just trying to keep track of all these new SNPs !!


FTDNA is now testing for DF19.
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« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2011, 05:16:53 PM »

....  DF19, which apparently is primarily northwestern, ... FTDNA is now testing for DF19.
How many people in the 1000 Human Genome project was DF19+ found in?  Where are they from?   I assume those people were Z196- L21- U152-.
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« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2011, 03:06:55 PM »

....  DF19, which apparently is primarily northwestern, ... FTDNA is now testing for DF19.
How many people in the 1000 Human Genome project was DF19+ found in?  Where are they from?   I assume those people were Z196- L21- U152-.

Three, and yes, they are negative for all other known SNPs below P312. Two were from the GBR database, which apparently means England and Scotland, and one was from the CEU database, which I have just learned is Utah residents of northern and western European ancestry.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2011, 08:30:03 PM »

Rich,

Do you have a rough estimate what percentage of previous P312* individuals in the project are members of the north/south cluster? Presumably they all (plus some others) will turn out to be Z196.
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rms2
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« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2011, 08:48:10 AM »

Rich,

Do you have a rough estimate what percentage of previous P312* individuals in the project are members of the north/south cluster? Presumably they all (plus some others) will turn out to be Z196.

No, but there are quite a few of them. I have thought about just putting them all in one of the Z196 categories, but I would prefer they test for it.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2011, 02:44:25 PM »

Rich,

Do you have a rough estimate what percentage of previous P312* individuals in the project are members of the north/south cluster? Presumably they all (plus some others) will turn out to be Z196.

No, but there are quite a few of them. I have thought about just putting them all in one of the Z196 categories, but I would prefer they test for it.

I suppose you could put the Z196 confirmed in one category, and the Z196 predicted (unconfirmed) in another, but that might be a bit messy.
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rms2
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« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2011, 08:45:11 AM »

Rich,

Do you have a rough estimate what percentage of previous P312* individuals in the project are members of the north/south cluster? Presumably they all (plus some others) will turn out to be Z196.

No, but there are quite a few of them. I have thought about just putting them all in one of the Z196 categories, but I would prefer they test for it.

I suppose you could put the Z196 confirmed in one category, and the Z196 predicted (unconfirmed) in another, but that might be a bit messy.

Yeah. I think I'll leave it as it is for now.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2011, 09:19:40 PM »

Rich,

Do you have a rough estimate what percentage of previous P312* individuals in the project are members of the north/south cluster? Presumably they all (plus some others) will turn out to be Z196.

I had a look at the P312* project map, where the N/S cluster members are easily identified by a black dot, and focused on Scandinavia. The maps shows 19 P312* from Scandinavia (excluding Finland), and only four of them had the N/S dot. I found it interesting that 3 were clustered very closely in the far south, but the fourth was far to the north of Norway. There were also 3 P312* from Finland, whom I suspect might originally have come from Sweden, and one of them was N/S.

I don't suggest this will hold for all of Europe, but something in the order of 20-25% is probably a rough estimate for the percentage of former P312* who are members of the N/S cluster.  
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 11:39:38 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2011, 04:10:08 PM »

Can anyone give a progress report on this.  I find Z196 one of the most interesting developments in p312/S116 studies.  It seems to mean S116 largely is either Z196, U152 or L21 if I understand the findings correctly.  There is obviously also  a rump of S116* going to remain.  Does anyone have any idea what proportion of  S116* is turning out to be Z196 positive or negative and if there is any geographical pattern to it?  There does not seem to be a lot of discussion about this despite the fact that there is quite a lot of S116* in some areas, particularly Iberia.   
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rms2
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« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2011, 04:56:54 PM »

Can anyone give a progress report on this.  I find Z196 one of the most interesting developments in p312/S116 studies.  It seems to mean S116 largely is either Z196, U152 or L21 if I understand the findings correctly.  There is obviously also  a rump of S116* going to remain.  Does anyone have any idea what proportion of  S116* is turning out to be Z196 positive or negative and if there is any geographical pattern to it?  There does not seem to be a lot of discussion about this despite the fact that there is quite a lot of S116* in some areas, particularly Iberia.  

I haven't been meticulously counting and keeping data on this, but it seems to me the Z196+ guys are either L176.2+ (including its subclades), M153+, or, if not, almost exclusively members of the R1b North-South Cluster. There are a couple of R-Z196* guys who are outside the R1b N-S, but as I recall they skirt its fringes.

Still it seems a substantial branch. It is regularly grabbing guys from the R-P312* geographic categories and whittling those down.

If you recall, I mentioned this kind of thing before when we were talking about that study of French R1b1a2 out of the University of Santiago de Compostela in Spain. That study showed the greatest amount of French R1b1a2 was something other than U152 or U106, which we supposed was split between R-P312* and R-L21. I commented that, in time, the R-P312* would break down into various different, smaller subclades, leaving R-L21 as perhaps the single biggest French subclade, or perhaps a close second to U152.

I think we're starting to see that whittling away of R-P312*.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 04:57:29 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2011, 08:17:45 PM »

Can anyone give a progress report on this.  I find Z196 one of the most interesting developments in p312/S116 studies.  It seems to mean S116 largely is either Z196, U152 or L21 if I understand the findings correctly.  There is obviously also  a rump of S116* going to remain.  Does anyone have any idea what proportion of  S116* is turning out to be Z196 positive or negative and if there is any geographical pattern to it?  There does not seem to be a lot of discussion about this despite the fact that there is quite a lot of S116* in some areas, particularly Iberia.  

I haven't been meticulously counting and keeping data on this, but it seems to me the Z196+ guys are either L176.2+ (including its subclades), M153+, or, if not, almost exclusively members of the R1b North-South Cluster. There are a couple of R-Z196* guys who are outside the R1b N-S, but as I recall they skirt its fringes.

Still it seems a substantial branch. It is regularly grabbing guys from the R-P312* geographic categories and whittling those down.

If you recall, I mentioned this kind of thing before when we were talking about that study of French R1b1a2 out of the University of Santiago de Compostela in Spain. That study showed the greatest amount of French R1b1a2 was something other than U152 or U106, which we supposed was split between R-P312* and R-L21. I commented that, in time, the R-P312* would break down into various different, smaller subclades, leaving R-L21 as perhaps the single biggest French subclade, or perhaps a close second to U152.

I think we're starting to see that whittling away of R-P312*.

Is there any suggestion of what degree of p312* is losing its * since the Z196, L176.2 etc were discovered.  I imagine there is a lot that has simply not tested yet for the new SNPs. Eventually a pattern might emerge and p312* might be concentrated into a specific area.  It will also be interesting to see if the variance of p312* increases as parts of it are removed by the new SNPs.


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GoldenHind
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« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2011, 09:27:57 PM »

Can anyone give a progress report on this.  I find Z196 one of the most interesting developments in p312/S116 studies.  It seems to mean S116 largely is either Z196, U152 or L21 if I understand the findings correctly.  There is obviously also  a rump of S116* going to remain.  Does anyone have any idea what proportion of  S116* is turning out to be Z196 positive or negative and if there is any geographical pattern to it?  There does not seem to be a lot of discussion about this despite the fact that there is quite a lot of S116* in some areas, particularly Iberia.  

I haven't been meticulously counting and keeping data on this, but it seems to me the Z196+ guys are either L176.2+ (including its subclades), M153+, or, if not, almost exclusively members of the R1b North-South Cluster. There are a couple of R-Z196* guys who are outside the R1b N-S, but as I recall they skirt its fringes.

Still it seems a substantial branch. It is regularly grabbing guys from the R-P312* geographic categories and whittling those down.

If you recall, I mentioned this kind of thing before when we were talking about that study of French R1b1a2 out of the University of Santiago de Compostela in Spain. That study showed the greatest amount of French R1b1a2 was something other than U152 or U106, which we supposed was split between R-P312* and R-L21. I commented that, in time, the R-P312* would break down into various different, smaller subclades, leaving R-L21 as perhaps the single biggest French subclade, or perhaps a close second to U152.

I think we're starting to see that whittling away of R-P312*.

Is there any suggestion of what degree of p312* is losing its * since the Z196, L176.2 etc were discovered.  I imagine there is a lot that has simply not tested yet for the new SNPs. Eventually a pattern might emerge and p312* might be concentrated into a specific area.  It will also be interesting to see if the variance of p312* increases as parts of it are removed by the new SNPs.




Unfortunately P312* almost certainly does not exist, other than as a term of convenience for those P312 whose subclade has not yet been identified. Some experts are now claiming that an SNP occurs on the Y chromosome about once every generation or two. Even if that turns out to be optimistic and the true number is only once every century or so, I think it is highly unlikely that there is any large group of P312* whose ancestors managed to go for several millenia without an SNP.

At the moment only a very small portion of the Y chromosome is being investigated for SNPs. Yet new SNPs below P312 are coming at a rapid pace. In addition to Z196, which was discovered only a few months ago, we also now have DF 19, which FTDNA has only begun testing. Also L617, found in a WTY for a P312* and originally thought to be private, is beginning to look like it's not private afterall.  Who knows what will turn up in the next few years.

Rich is correct. We're whittling away at P312* and will continue to do so as sequencing the entire Y chromosome progresses and becomes less expensive. I believe at some point in the not too distant future P312*will actually or virtually disappear. 

 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2011, 04:54:02 AM »

I understand p312* is just a terms of convenience.  However, there must be or must have been among the p312* a lineage that could be called pre-L21 and that can only be hidden among the current p312* that is negative for Z196 and of course U152.  If variance is an indication, there must have been a pre-L21 lineage somewhere during the period when the slightly older U152 and Z196 lines were undergoing their early expansions.   I suppose the only definate way of locating this is if an SNP is found that is only shared between L21 and a subsection of what is currently defined as p312*.     
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rms2
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« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2011, 06:58:56 AM »

We still have quite a few current P312* guys who are negative for Z196 (and thus everything downstream of it) and are holding out for whatever new discoveries are coming down the pike. But I think Goldenhind is right, and eventually P312* will mostly disappear.

The problem with the newer SNPs is that they encompass smaller and smaller groups, it seems to me. That makes testing for and finding the right one a potentially expensive proposition. We have guys in the R-P312 and Subclades and R-L21 Plus projects who test for every new SNP that comes along. I don't know how they can afford it, especially after drawing negative result after negative result.

I myself am in a quandary over which L21+ SNPs to test for. My dna testing budget is limited. I know negative results are informative, but, on a practical level, as someone who works for a living, they strike me as missing the target and a waste of money. Man, I hate parting with my hard-earned money for a minus sign!
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A.D.
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« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2011, 04:52:49 PM »

Is there a new (updated) Phylogenetic tree  chart. The 1 on FTDNA) the last one I got is 2009/10. I know I should not need to keep referring to it  but I do.   
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rms2
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« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2011, 05:52:06 PM »

Is there a new (updated) Phylogenetic tree  chart. The 1 on FTDNA) the last one I got is 2009/10. I know I should not need to keep referring to it  but I do.   

There was an update a few months ago, but it doesn't include some of the latest stuff, like Z196, L238, etc.
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razyn
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« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2012, 05:18:03 PM »

Last September, I did a sort of online version of an essay bibliography of the various threads and discussions of Z196, including this one.  (At the time, I wasn't registered to post here.)  Anyway, the most open-access place to catch up on Z196 developments more recent than July 2011 would be the Eupedia version of that.  There is perhaps a bit more to see on DNA-Forums -- but people who don't or can't register there won't see it, at least in English.  I've updated the Eupedia Z196 thread a few times, including today:

http://tinyurl.com/7ojo7mh

I frankly don't expect a lot of activity until FTDNA gets around to offering SNP tests for Z274, Z294, Z209 and Z214 -- and perhaps a few more, one puzzling possibility being an even newer discovery, DF27.  Anyway, some of us who used to be P312* are now Z196*, or Z196**.  Although we continue champing at the bit, it's a different bit than last spring's.  And a few people, most notably MikeWww, are including Z196 in their variance based TMRCA calculations.
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« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2012, 10:16:19 AM »

Razyn, DYS437=14 and DYS448=18 are found not only in these R1b-NS. They may have converged also in other haplogroups, by chance, and they need other values. For instance these values are found also in some R1b1* (see ySearch: PXBSS and ZQW5V), but also in ySearch AM2QA, Post. The surname is probably in origin Pfost, and seems of German descent. I’d know willingly his haplogroup, ascertained by a SNP test. By his YCAII=22-23 it would seem an R1b1* of Eastern origin.

It seems actually an R1b1* Cluster 4

R1b1* (L389+) Cluster A4
N60050 Flinchbaugh Anthoni Flinspach, Großgartach, Württemberg, 1516 Germany R1b1
13 24 15 10 12-13 12 13 12 14 12 30 14 9-9 10 11 25 14 18 29 14-15-15-17 10 10 22-23 16 18 19 17 37-38 13 11 11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 19-21 16 10 12 12 15 8 13 22 20 14 11 11 13 12 11 14 12                                                                                         
104725 Hefner Melchoir Hefner d 1810 Lincoln Co NC m Catherine B Germany R1b1
13 24 15 10 12-13 12 13 12 14 12 30 14 9-9 10 11 26 14 18 29 14-15-15-17 10 12 22-23 16 16 18 16 38-38 13 11 11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 19-21 16 10 12 12 15 8 13 22 20 13 11 11 13 12 11 14 12

And see also ySearch PXBSS (Anonymous Iranian) I put on ySearch from SMGF. But probably this should be for another thread.
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