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Author Topic: Z196 and the history of P312  (Read 25699 times)
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #75 on: March 25, 2012, 02:13:31 PM »

My initial feeling was that those Z278+ and below would be more Iberian and those above Z278 would be more non-Iberian. It will be interesting so see if that holds true.

Do we know that the 1000 Genomes participant in whom Z278 was found had Iberian origins? Does it stand to reason that if this is an Iberian SNP eventually not found in northern members of the NS group, the migration was north to south?

I note in the Genome Browser that the current count for Z278 testing is zero out of six.

Z220 is one out of three.

(Also, by the way, I just asked Rich Stevens to take a look and see who among the Z209 derived results are in the P312 Project.)

(And another addition: Z216 testing is 0-2 and Z214 is 0-6)

Matt, here was the breakdown of Z278+ 1000 Genome Project samples:

3 were from Colombia
3 were from Puerto Rico
2 were from Iberia
1 was from Mexico

There have been many Iberian sequences added since then, so the number is probably much higher. The best way to confirm these is to have an M153+ sample tested for them.
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Matt Winters
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« Reply #76 on: March 25, 2012, 02:13:46 PM »

This is beginning to have the appearance of some real groundbreaking.

And, welcome to this forum, Matt.

Thanks Dick, it's hard to believe our little old branch of R1b is finally starting to leaf out. I started on this whole deal six years ago after a chance exchange with my distant cousin Ann Turner, but it sometimes seemed more like 60 years. And with the new Roche sequencer coming online pretty soon at FTDNA, we're in for some fascinating advances in the next few years.
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razyn
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« Reply #77 on: March 25, 2012, 02:17:04 PM »

I've got 12 now.

Pretty cool that all the positive tests so far were in the project.  That shows who wants to know, is voting with the pocketbook, etc.  Also, every single one of them has the three defining STR values for the N/S cluster -- except for one guy who only tested 25 markers and lacks a report for H4.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 09:59:27 AM by razyn » Logged

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« Reply #78 on: March 25, 2012, 02:17:36 PM »

My initial feeling was that those Z278+ and below would be more Iberian and those above Z278 would be more non-Iberian. It will be interesting so see if that holds true.

Do we know that the 1000 Genomes participant in whom Z278 was found had Iberian origins? Does it stand to reason that if this is an Iberian SNP eventually not found in northern members of the NS group, the migration was north to south?

I note in the Genome Browser that the current count for Z278 testing is zero out of six.

Z220 is one out of three.

(Also, by the way, I just asked Rich Stevens to take a look and see who among the Z209 derived results are in the P312 Project.)

(And another addition: Z216 testing is 0-2 and Z214 is 0-6)

Matt, here was the breakdown of Z278+ 1000 Genome Project samples:

3 were from Colombia
3 were from Puerto Rico
2 were from Iberia
1 was from Mexico

There have been many Iberian sequences added since then, so the number is probably much higher. The best way to confirm these is to have an M153+ sample tested for them.

Wow, that's really looking solid. Very cool. Looks like the south is the younger bunch in our NS cluster...
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rms2
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« Reply #79 on: March 25, 2012, 02:25:33 PM »

I counted just five pending Z209 tests on our "Pending Lab Results" page.

I think it's pretty plain that all the Z196 (xM153, 176.2) guys need to test for Z209.

Everybody in the NS cluster should test for it.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 02:26:13 PM by rms2 » Logged

Matt Winters
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« Reply #80 on: March 25, 2012, 02:27:25 PM »

I've got 12 now. I saw Menge's negative result. The earliest test result I saw was 22 March.

It seems a widespread group, with representatives from Sweden, Finland, Spain, France, the Netherlands, Ukraine, and the Czech Republic, as well as the British Isles.

Thanks Rich, this is great. Your fellow SNP junkies salute you!
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rms2
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« Reply #81 on: March 25, 2012, 02:29:48 PM »

I've got 12 now. I saw Menge's negative result. The earliest test result I saw was 22 March.

It seems a widespread group, with representatives from Sweden, Finland, Spain, France, the Netherlands, Ukraine, and the Czech Republic, as well as the British Isles.

Thanks Rich, this is great. Your fellow SNP junkies salute you!


You're very welcome!

It's pretty exciting to see something like this take off. What an interesting subclade!

I wonder what it means in terms of ancient peoples. Any guesses?
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razyn
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« Reply #82 on: March 25, 2012, 02:38:07 PM »

I wonder what it means in terms of ancient peoples. Any guesses?

Traders and prospectors who came west from the (no longer extant) mouth of the Vistula River in sewn boats, carrying amber and looking for the ores of bronze.  And, you know, local babes.
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« Reply #83 on: March 25, 2012, 02:44:06 PM »

. . .  And, you know, local babes.

LOL. I think that was an R1b specialty.
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razyn
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« Reply #84 on: March 25, 2012, 02:48:05 PM »

Well, Y-DNA is a guy thing, if anything is.
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« Reply #85 on: March 25, 2012, 03:08:22 PM »

Seeing that we only have five Z209 tests pending right now, I just sent out a bulk email encouraging project members to order both Z196 and Z209. Here it is.

Quote
***THIS IS A BULK EMAIL THAT, UNFORTUNATELY, HAS TO GO OUT TO THE ENTIRE PROJECT. PLEASE DISREGARD IT IF THE TITLE DOES NOT APPLY YOU.***

Dear Friends,

Are you a member of the R1b North-South Cluster? You are if you have the following STR marker values:

437=14
448=18
H4=10

If you check your STR markers and find you have those values, please consider ordering the SNPs Z196 and Z209. Z196 is nearly universal among members of the North-South Cluster, and Z209 is a newly discovered SNP that is downstream of Z196.

If you are Z196+ and negative for M153 and L176.2 (including SRY2627 and L165, which are downstream of L176.2), then you should order Z209. We are picking up a lot of positive Z209 results among men already tested Z196+.

Of course, neither FTDNA nor I can promise you a positive result.

Please do NOT order Z196 or Z209 if you have already tested positive for M153, L176.2, SRY2627, L165, DF19, L238, U152 and any of its subclades, or L21 and any of its subclades. You would be wasting your money.

To order any new SNP, like Z196 and Z209, just go to your "myFTDNA" pages and click on "Order Upgrade" in the upper right. Scroll down and click on "Order an Advanced Test" (under the heading "Advanced Tests"). On the next screen, click the drop-down menu on the "Test Type" box and choose "SNP". Then, in the "Marker" box, type the name of the SNP. Click "Find". That SNP should come up, showing a $29 price. Click "Add" and then the little orange "Next" button in the lower right. After that, just complete the fields to order the test.

Thanks!



Of course, it probably won't go out until tomorrow. (Hope I don't get deluged with emails as a consequence, but I always do when I send out bulk emails like this one.)
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 03:10:59 PM by rms2 » Logged

Matt Winters
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« Reply #86 on: March 25, 2012, 03:26:55 PM »

Thanks Rich.

By the way, as I was walking the dogs just now, it occurred to me to see if you can identify the stated geographic origins of the Z278- people who have just tested. Obviously, I'm one of them, with solid English roots. So far as you can see, are the others also non-Iberians?
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rms2
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« Reply #87 on: March 25, 2012, 03:38:05 PM »

Thanks Rich.

By the way, as I was walking the dogs just now, it occurred to me to see if you can identify the stated geographic origins of the Z278- people who have just tested. Obviously, I'm one of them, with solid English roots. So far as you can see, are the others also non-Iberians?

I looked just now, Matt, but yours was the only Z278 result I could find.

I got a message that one of our newly-minted, non-Iberian Z209+ guys just ordered Z278, however.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 03:39:28 PM by rms2 » Logged

razyn
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« Reply #88 on: March 25, 2012, 03:47:47 PM »

Has any M153 guy ordered the battery of five new hierarchical SNPs between Z196 and M153?  Rich Rocca has previously said that only one needs to do so, and others would be wasting their money.  But of the seven in the P312 and Subclades project, does anybody have pending results for them?  That might be a candidate for M-153 project funds, if their project has any funds... haven't looked at it, lately.
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« Reply #89 on: March 25, 2012, 03:53:10 PM »

Has any M153 guy ordered the battery of five new hierarchical SNPs between Z196 and M153?  Rich Rocca has previously said that only one needs to do so, and others would be wasting their money.  But of the seven in the P312 and Subclades project, does anybody have pending results for them?  That might be a candidate for M-153 project funds, if their project has any funds... haven't looked at it, lately.

You know, I just assumed M153 and Z209 were parallel, but I don't know why I thought that. Maybe M153 is downstream of Z209?

We have only a small contingent of M153+ guys in the R-P312 and Subclades Project. Checking the "Pending Lab Results" page, I don't see a Z209 or Z278 order for any of them.
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« Reply #90 on: March 25, 2012, 04:03:15 PM »


You know, I just assumed M153 and Z209 were parallel, but I don't know why I thought that.

It's that optical illusion from ISOGG, and Thos. Krahn's Draft Tree, that's been bugging me since about last June.  M153 is downstream from a whole string of things, including all five of these new ones plus the still untestable Z274 and Z294.  (Either of which btw may catch some Z196* person, such as Breckenheimer, who tests Z209-.)
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« Reply #91 on: March 25, 2012, 04:14:26 PM »


You know, I just assumed M153 and Z209 were parallel, but I don't know why I thought that.

It's that optical illusion from ISOGG, and Thos. Krahn's Draft Tree, that's been bugging me since about last June.  M153 is downstream from a whole string of things, including all five of these new ones plus the still untestable Z274 and Z294.  (Either of which btw may catch some Z196* person, such as Breckenheimer, who tests Z209-.)

Well, maybe I can clear things up . . . a little, anyway.

I just sent an email to a pretty active M153+ guy offering him a free Z209 test to be paid for out of the project's General Fund.

I hope he takes us up on it.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 04:15:38 PM by rms2 » Logged

Richard Rocca
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« Reply #92 on: March 25, 2012, 07:35:05 PM »


You know, I just assumed M153 and Z209 were parallel, but I don't know why I thought that.

It's that optical illusion from ISOGG, and Thos. Krahn's Draft Tree, that's been bugging me since about last June.  M153 is downstream from a whole string of things, including all five of these new ones plus the still untestable Z274 and Z294.  (Either of which btw may catch some Z196* person, such as Breckenheimer, who tests Z209-.)

Well, maybe I can clear things up . . . a little, anyway.

I just sent an email to a pretty active M153+ guy offering him a free Z209 test to be paid for out of the project's General Fund.

I hope he takes us up on it.

Here is a link to the proposed Z196 tree I made last year:

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Draft_P312_Tree_v005.png

Z278 is actually rs1469371 in the diagram and DF27 should be between P312 and Z196.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 07:38:07 PM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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razyn
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« Reply #93 on: March 26, 2012, 10:55:20 AM »

Here is a link to the proposed Z196 tree I made last year:

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Draft_P312_Tree_v005.png

Z278 is actually rs1469371 in the diagram and DF27 should be between P312 and Z196.

You've previously said that Z225 should also go under DF27, so that would be another tweak to your existing chart from last summer.  Perhaps Z225 and Z196 need to be dropped a level, to remain side by side under DF27?  But, sufficient unto the day are the SNP discoveries thereof.  At the moment, we can't test for DF27.

Where is MikeWww while the interesting stuff is happening?  I want to see his take on this Z209 pattern -- just twelve positives that already mention ten countries, and stretch from Ukraine to Spain (and via the Baltic?) on one SNP no paper had mentioned as of March 2012.  Seems likely to be a fun one, for him (to play with its variance figures, etc.).
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« Reply #94 on: March 26, 2012, 11:11:37 AM »

Where is MikeWww while the interesting stuff is happening? ...
Just got back from Manhattan, but it wasn't NY. Also was in Norman, not Normandy...   L21 research.
http://www.big12sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=106091&SPID=13131&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=10410&ATCLID=205392492
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razyn
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« Reply #95 on: March 26, 2012, 11:58:31 AM »

Congratulations, glad to see a representative of the Www family doing so well for my terminal alma mater (Texas '78).  Hook 'em, Horns.

And btw I once drove from London to Manchester w/o leaving Kentucky.

Now, about Z209...
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« Reply #96 on: March 26, 2012, 06:32:02 PM »

L165 keeps growing. I found a haplotype that I couldn't cluster well with the other L165 guys. I thought his location was interesting but I'm not sure if that was just a guess. May be more likely of English origin.
f115642   Mayberry   R-Z196/L176/L165   Germany

Here are the English MDKA folks:
f170048   Brownson   England, East, Essex
f188925   Ayton   England, East, Norfolk, New Buckenham
f163136   Ayton   England, Yorkshire and Humber, North Yorkshire, Scarborough, West Ayton
f3134   Cassidy   England
fN60197   Terrill   England
f217815   Terrill   England
f64253   Terrill   England
f194083   Terrill   England
f195300   Terrill   England

Here are the Scots/Ulster folks:
f162876   Bell/Williams   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Armagh
f18911   Bell   Scotland, Fife, St. Andrews
f165113   zzzUnkName   Scotland, Fife, St. Andrews
f194727   McDonald   Scotland, Grampian, Moray, Knockando
fN9281   MacLeod   Scotland, Hebrides
f69720   MacDonald   Scotland, Highland, Caithness, Achscoriclate
f200478   MacDonald   Scotland, Highland, Caithness, Halkirk, Glutt
f46281   McDonald   Scotland, Highland, Caithness, Latheron
f50928   MacDonald   Scotland, Highland, Caithness, Reay
f213423   McLeod   Scotland, Highland, Inverness
f189071   Cameron   Scotland, Highland, Lochabar
f124845   McDonald   Scotland, Highland, Sutherland
f150848   MacLeod   Scotland, Inner Hebrides, Isle of Raasay, Riggs
f150587   McLeod   Scotland, Inner Hebrides, Isle of Skye, Bracadale
f100750   MacNeill   Scotland, Outer Hebrides, Isle of Barra
f43984   MacPherson   Scotland, Outer Hebrides, Isle of Barra
f65411   MacNeil   Scotland, Outer Hebrides, Isle of Barra, Brevig
f47096   MacLeod   Scotland, Outer Hebrides, Isle of Harris
f50745   MacLeod   Scotland, Outer Hebrides, North Uist
f197816   MacMullin   Scotland, Outer Hebrides, South Uist
f137480   McLeod   Scotland, Strathclyde, Ayrshire
f1226   Beall   Scotland
f1207   Beall   Scotland
f87332   Buie   Scotland
f41571   MacLeod   Scotland
f96597   MacLeod   Scotland
f66014   MacLeod   Scotland
f24712   MacLeod   Scotland
f193751   MacLeod   Scotland
f205610   MacNeil   Scotland
f179639   MacNeil   Scotland
f196207   MacNeill   Scotland
f25620   McDonald   Scotland
f172409   McLeod   Scotland
f36748   McLeod   Scotland
fN39514   McLeod   Scotland
f122999   McLeod   Scotland
f36109   McLeod   Scotland
f99027   McLeod   Scotland
f38596   McNeil   Scotland
f173334   McNeill   Scotland
fA1889   zzzUnkName   Scotland

Keep in mind that L165's brothers and L176.2* and SRY2627/M167 and EthnoAncestry use to call L165 a "Norse" marker. There are a couple of Scandinavians too.

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rms2
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« Reply #97 on: March 26, 2012, 07:47:53 PM »


Well, maybe I can clear things up . . . a little, anyway.

I just sent an email to a pretty active M153+ guy offering him a free Z209 test to be paid for out of the project's General Fund.

I hope he takes us up on it.


Our M153+ guy went for it, so now we have an M153+ guy with a Z209 test on order.

We should know soon (I hope).
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rms2
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« Reply #98 on: March 26, 2012, 07:49:35 PM »

Where is MikeWww while the interesting stuff is happening? ...
Just got back from Manhattan, but it wasn't NY. Also was in Norman, not Normandy...   L21 research.
http://www.big12sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=106091&SPID=13131&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=10410&ATCLID=205392492

You just can't keep those steely-muscled L21+ guys down!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 07:49:46 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #99 on: March 26, 2012, 10:41:25 PM »

I want to see his take on this Z209 pattern -- just twelve positives that already mention ten countries, and stretch from Ukraine to Spain (and via the Baltic?) on one SNP no paper had mentioned as of March 2012.  Seems likely to be a fun one, for him (to play with its variance figures, etc.).
Here is what I have on Z209. Several positives.

f97920   Zencker   Czech Republic, Bohemia, Waltersdorf   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L586- L587- L588-   z1418-NS
f1401   Chernik   Ukraine, Khmelnytskyi Oblast, Krasilov   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS
f90025   Vivies   France, Aquitane, Midi-Pyrénées, Haute-Garonne, Pouze   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418
fE11427   zzzUnkName   Spain   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS
fN16822   Klaasen   Netherlands, North Brabant, Grave   Z196+ Z209+ M153-   z1418-NS-A
f81973   Winter   England, London (? or Norfolk)   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2- Z278- L586- L587- L588-   z1418-NS-B
f109430   Larkin   England   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2- L586- L587- L588-   z1418-NS-E
f72190   Nuccol   England   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS-B
f27539   Leyton   Ireland, Leinster, Co. Dublin   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS-C
f193827   Hjelt(Torku)   Finland, Finland Proper, Turku   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS
f76755   Nilsson(Sjöstorp)   Sweden, Skåne län, Malmöhus, Dalby, Sjöstorp   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS-A
f148469   Parker   zzzUnkOrigin   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS-A

and this negative.
fN3432   Menge   Germany, Hesse, Darmstadt, Breckenheim   Z196+ M153- L176.2- Z209-   z1518-A

It looks to me like Z209+ is the North-South Cluster
plus a little bit of stretch around the edges.
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