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Author Topic: Z196 and the history of P312  (Read 23812 times)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2012, 11:10:13 AM »

Can anyone give a progress report on this.  I find Z196 one of the most interesting developments in p312/S116 studies.  It seems to mean S116 largely is either Z196, U152 or L21 if I understand the findings correctly.  There is obviously also  a rump of S116* going to remain.  Does anyone have any idea what proportion of  S116* is turning out to be Z196 positive or negative and if there is any geographical pattern to it?  There does not seem to be a lot of discussion about this despite the fact that there is quite a lot of S116* in some areas, particularly Iberia.  
Of the 751 P312* folks that are untested for Z196, I have 110 that fit into STR signature varieties that have Z196+ folks in them.  43 of the 751 fall into varieties that appear to be DF19+.

So roughly 15% could be Z196+ and 6% DF19+. Both percentages could grow, especially for DF19, since we know less about it.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 02:09:17 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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razyn
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« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2012, 11:30:26 AM »

Razyn, DYS437=14 and DYS448=18 are found not only in these R1b-NS.

Right, anything's possible, and I know the thread is about the SNP and not about that cluster.  But all members of that cluster who have tested for it have the Z196 SNP -- as do a good many others, who aren't L176.2.  The subset of Z196 that is L176.2 negative is a large clade that still needs a defining SNP to test.  (Most of it is within, or very near, what has long been called the North/South Cluster.)  Z274 seems the best early prospect, then Z294.  Eventually, this conversation won't be theoretical, and we can drop the cluster chat.

And I don't see much point in arguing with the usefulness of one cluster on the basis of another cluster (A4, or whatever).  They are what they are, apparent patterns in the STR count.

I do think the cousins of tested Z196 persons, who share their marker values, might logically be considered members of their haplogroup, as well as their extended family.  They are administratively excluded from the database; but their haplotypes are available, in family YDNA projects and elsewhere.   Ysearch and similar tools don't check for positive SNP test results, but they do turn up some of these cousins.  And they are much more numerous than the (62?) current holders of what amounts to a $29 "Z196 Club" membership badge.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2012, 11:45:29 AM »

Razyn writes: “And I don't see much point in arguing with the usefulness of one cluster on the basis of another cluster (A4, or whatever)”.

Yes, mine were only some reflections about this “Post” I wasn’t able to classify and I remembered these two values (DYS437=14 and DYS448=18) in common with R1b-NS. Working on them I have just found him (Post) like an R1b1* Cluster A4. If we may learn something it is that two values don’t determine a cluster, even though they are slow mutating, but of course this is known by anyone.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 11:46:15 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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razyn
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« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2012, 11:21:35 AM »

Here is an FTDNA SNP report page that includes a count of the number of Z196 tests completed (currently 263) and the number that were derived, i.e. Z196+ (currently 71):

[Edit Jan. 19th: the url I inserted ten days ago now leads to a different SNP, Z715, and doesn't report the testing totals I cited.  If I can fix it, I shall, but for the moment it is better to disregard the following url.  The remainder of my discussion was accurate, when posted.]

http://tinyurl.com/7b5v68x

Within that report, clicking on the blue numbers will take you to all sorts of genetic detail about the Z196 SNP.  I assume that the number of tested samples will grow, and the count I have mentioned in this post only refers to 9 January 2012.

In my last previous post here I mentioned a figure of 62, the latest count of Z196+ guys I had seen.  Our numbers are growing, if slowly.  It seems that a lot of people have recently tested unsuccessfully for this SNP.  Perhaps the next update of the Deep Clade test will include Z196 -- or at least make it more obvious who needs to order this SNP test, and who doesn't.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 02:49:36 PM by razyn » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #54 on: January 09, 2012, 04:01:44 PM »

Is it fair comment that Iberia has a lot of Z196 and subclades?  Is it the hotspot if all subclades etc are included?  I am curious as to what the ancestral/derived for Z196 rate is for Iberian P312* tested for this SNP.  Is there a pattern in terms of those who still remain P312* after testing for Z196?
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« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2012, 05:12:30 PM »

I can't really speak about Iberian P312*, but I can say there is no pattern for English samples who remain P312* after testing negative for Z196.

As for Z196 itself, since it has both northern and southern elements, I am inclined to believe it was born somewhere in central Europe, and had branches which migrated in both northerly and southerly directions.

I don't think there is a connection between Iberia and Z196, though I believe there is with some Z196 subclades (such as M153).
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 05:14:31 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
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« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2012, 04:51:15 PM »

Eventually, this conversation won't be theoretical, and we can drop the cluster chat.

In that regard I would call the attention of this forum's readers to the fact that FTDNA now offers a test for one of the new SNPs located below Z196 and above M153.  That SNP is Z209, found on the "Advanced Orders -- SNP test" menu since yesterday afternoon.  I assume that the first orders for this test will be batched next Wednesday evening -- in case someone here wants to be among the pioneers.  This SNP is for the N/S Cluster side of the Z196 lineage (and not the L176.2 side).  It is well above M153.  The primers for two more SNPs lower in that same lineage are being tested, and the tests should be available soon: Z278 (formerly called rs 1469371) and Z214.

The FTDNA lab has reported that it has been difficult to develop reliable primers for two higher level SNPs, Z274 and Z294.  One of these may separate the N/S Cluster from other Z196* lines -- but if so, that will not be demonstrable (by testing at FTDNA) in the near future.
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« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2012, 07:05:44 PM »

Glad to see Z209 available.  Hmm odd I don't see at Krahn's Draft Tree http://ytree.ftdna.com ?
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« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2012, 12:01:33 PM »

Here is a hasty update to the current Z196 testing agenda:  In addition to Z209, which was added to the menu late last week, today I see that FTDNA is offering tests for a considerable sequence of the new SNPs under Z196*.  As stated in an alert sent to R-P312 and Subclades project members, if you are Z196+ but L176.2- you should consider testing for these.  If you want to do it in a fiscally conservative fashion -- testing one SNP at a time, from the top down -- the predicted series is Z209, Z220, Z216, Z278 (aka rs1469371), Z214.

Below Z214 lies M153; so another approach (for M153+ people) might be to test for these in the opposite order, from the bottom upward.  If this is a straight line (without forks) the M153 guys are already positive for all of it; but, chances are, there are some forks and branches.  It's more economical to find them from the top down.

In any case, the news for Z196* is that there are five new Z-series SNP tests that may now be ordered from the My FTDNA Home -- Upgrade -- Advanced Orders -- SNP Tests menu.  The "North/South Cluster" lies along this sequence -- although it is possible that its defining SNP, if there is just one, could be above Z209 (the prime candidates being Z274 and Z294).
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2012, 03:43:06 PM »

Here is a hasty update to the current Z196 testing agenda:  In addition to Z209, which was added to the menu late last week, today I see that FTDNA is offering tests for a considerable sequence of the new SNPs under Z196*.  As stated in an alert sent to R-P312 and Subclades project members, if you are Z196+ but L176.2- you should consider testing for these.  If you want to do it in a fiscally conservative fashion -- testing one SNP at a time, from the top down -- the predicted series is Z209, Z220, Z216, Z278 (aka rs1469371), Z214.

Below Z214 lies M153; so another approach (for M153+ people) might be to test for these in the opposite order, from the bottom upward.  If this is a straight line (without forks) the M153 guys are already positive for all of it; but, chances are, there are some forks and branches.  It's more economical to find them from the top down.

In any case, the news for Z196* is that there are five new Z-series SNP tests that may now be ordered from the My FTDNA Home -- Upgrade -- Advanced Orders -- SNP Tests menu.  The "North/South Cluster" lies along this sequence -- although it is possible that its defining SNP, if there is just one, could be above Z209 (the prime candidates being Z274 and Z294).

A correction...M153+ folks would be positive for all upstream SNPs. There are no ifs or buts about it. The only way they would be negative is if by chance there is a back-mutation or if one of the SNPs is unstable, rendering it useless for phylogenetics.

All you need is for one M153 sample to test all of them so that they get placed on the ISOGG tree. All the rest would be throwing their money away.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 03:43:56 PM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2012, 04:46:25 PM »

All you need is for one M153 sample to test all of them so that they get placed on the ISOGG tree. All the rest would be throwing their money away.

I defer to your better understanding of the meaning of your own charts.  To me, it looks as if a person could descend from some SNP on the level of Z209 (to name the first example that will be tested), but not necessarily Z209.  You show five other possibilities (Z215, Z268, Z271, Z295, Z296).  Are they in effect different instances or environments of the same mutation?
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2012, 09:13:28 PM »

All you need is for one M153 sample to test all of them so that they get placed on the ISOGG tree. All the rest would be throwing their money away.

I defer to your better understanding of the meaning of your own charts.  To me, it looks as if a person could descend from some SNP on the level of Z209 (to name the first example that will be tested), but not necessarily Z209.  You show five other possibilities (Z215, Z268, Z271, Z295, Z296).  Are they in effect different instances or environments of the same mutation?

Just like all people who are P312+ would be positive for L11,  L151, L52, P310 and  P311 all the M153 would be positive for all the upstream subclades and all the SNPs in that subclades. On the way down however, it could be that someone may test Z196+Z209+ but negative for a few SNPs on the same level which would then create a new branch on the way down to where M153 is. Hope I'm explaining it clearly.

By the way, I know you have been waiting for these for a while, so I wish you all the best. Hopefully we'll have more news on the Z196 front in the next couple of weeks.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2012, 03:59:32 PM »

Here is a hasty update to the current Z196 testing agenda:  In addition to Z209, which was added to the menu late last week, today I see that FTDNA is offering tests for a considerable sequence of the new SNPs under Z196*.  As stated in an alert sent to R-P312 and Subclades project members, if you are Z196+ but L176.2- you should consider testing for these.  If you want to do it in a fiscally conservative fashion -- testing one SNP at a time, from the top down -- the predicted series is Z209, Z220, Z216, Z278 (aka rs1469371), Z214.

Below Z214 lies M153; so another approach (for M153+ people) might be to test for these in the opposite order, from the bottom upward.  If this is a straight line (without forks) the M153 guys are already positive for all of it; but, chances are, there are some forks and branches.  It's more economical to find them from the top down.

In any case, the news for Z196* is that there are five new Z-series SNP tests that may now be ordered from the My FTDNA Home -- Upgrade -- Advanced Orders -- SNP Tests menu.  The "North/South Cluster" lies along this sequence -- although it is possible that its defining SNP, if there is just one, could be above Z209 (the prime candidates being Z274 and Z294).

A correction...M153+ folks would be positive for all upstream SNPs. There are no ifs or buts about it. The only way they would be negative is if by chance there is a back-mutation or if one of the SNPs is unstable, rendering it useless for phylogenetics.

All you need is for one M153 sample to test all of them so that they get placed on the ISOGG tree. All the rest would be throwing their money away.

I assume what you're saying is that an M153 individual in the 1000 Genomes Project is positive for these intermediate SNPs?
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2012, 06:26:54 PM »

Here is a hasty update to the current Z196 testing agenda:  In addition to Z209, which was added to the menu late last week, today I see that FTDNA is offering tests for a considerable sequence of the new SNPs under Z196*.  As stated in an alert sent to R-P312 and Subclades project members, if you are Z196+ but L176.2- you should consider testing for these.  If you want to do it in a fiscally conservative fashion -- testing one SNP at a time, from the top down -- the predicted series is Z209, Z220, Z216, Z278 (aka rs1469371), Z214.

Below Z214 lies M153; so another approach (for M153+ people) might be to test for these in the opposite order, from the bottom upward.  If this is a straight line (without forks) the M153 guys are already positive for all of it; but, chances are, there are some forks and branches.  It's more economical to find them from the top down.

In any case, the news for Z196* is that there are five new Z-series SNP tests that may now be ordered from the My FTDNA Home -- Upgrade -- Advanced Orders -- SNP Tests menu.  The "North/South Cluster" lies along this sequence -- although it is possible that its defining SNP, if there is just one, could be above Z209 (the prime candidates being Z274 and Z294).

A correction...M153+ folks would be positive for all upstream SNPs. There are no ifs or buts about it. The only way they would be negative is if by chance there is a back-mutation or if one of the SNPs is unstable, rendering it useless for phylogenetics.

All you need is for one M153 sample to test all of them so that they get placed on the ISOGG tree. All the rest would be throwing their money away.

I assume what you're saying is that an M153 individual in the 1000 Genomes Project is positive for these intermediate SNPs?

Correct...both M153+ individuals.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2012, 09:34:03 PM »

Here is a hasty update to the current Z196 testing agenda:  In addition to Z209, which was added to the menu late last week, today I see that FTDNA is offering tests for a considerable sequence of the new SNPs under Z196*.  As stated in an alert sent to R-P312 and Subclades project members, if you are Z196+ but L176.2- you should consider testing for these.  If you want to do it in a fiscally conservative fashion -- testing one SNP at a time, from the top down -- the predicted series is Z209, Z220, Z216, Z278 (aka rs1469371), Z214.

Below Z214 lies M153; so another approach (for M153+ people) might be to test for these in the opposite order, from the bottom upward.  If this is a straight line (without forks) the M153 guys are already positive for all of it; but, chances are, there are some forks and branches.  It's more economical to find them from the top down.

In any case, the news for Z196* is that there are five new Z-series SNP tests that may now be ordered from the My FTDNA Home -- Upgrade -- Advanced Orders -- SNP Tests menu.  The "North/South Cluster" lies along this sequence -- although it is possible that its defining SNP, if there is just one, could be above Z209 (the prime candidates being Z274 and Z294).

A correction...M153+ folks would be positive for all upstream SNPs. There are no ifs or buts about it. The only way they would be negative is if by chance there is a back-mutation or if one of the SNPs is unstable, rendering it useless for phylogenetics.

All you need is for one M153 sample to test all of them so that they get placed on the ISOGG tree. All the rest would be throwing their money away.

I assume what you're saying is that an M153 individual in the 1000 Genomes Project is positive for these intermediate SNPs?

Correct...both M153+ individuals.

Thanks. I assume also that Z209 etc. has also been found in at least one Z196+ individual who is M153-, thereby establishing their position as above and not below M153.
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« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2012, 09:36:01 PM »

Can anyone give a progress report on this.  I find Z196 one of the most interesting developments in p312/S116 studies.  It seems to mean S116 largely is either Z196, U152 or L21 if I understand the findings correctly.  There is obviously also  a rump of S116* going to remain.  Does anyone have any idea what proportion of  S116* is turning out to be Z196 positive or negative and if there is any geographical pattern to it?  There does not seem to be a lot of discussion about this despite the fact that there is quite a lot of S116* in some areas, particularly Iberia.  
Of the 751 P312* folks that are untested for Z196, I have 110 that fit into STR signature varieties that have Z196+ folks in them.  43 of the 751 fall into varieties that appear to be DF19+.

So roughly 15% could be Z196+ and 6% DF19+. Both percentages could grow, especially for DF19, since we know less about it.

Could you be more specific about what P312 varieties are likely to be DF19+? Perhaps this should be answered on the DF19 thread (about 4 pages back).
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« Reply #66 on: March 23, 2012, 02:06:04 PM »

I would call the attention of this forum's readers to the fact that FTDNA now offers a test for one of the new SNPs located below Z196 and above M153.  That SNP is Z209

The first results are coming in today.  Breckenheimer negative, and Winters positive, for Z209.  Winters is also positive for Z220 -- so he's ordering Z216.  And he's tested negative for Z278.

Onward and upward.
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« Reply #67 on: March 23, 2012, 10:00:56 PM »

I would call the attention of this forum's readers to the fact that FTDNA now offers a test for one of the new SNPs located below Z196 and above M153.  That SNP is Z209

The first results are coming in today.  Breckenheimer negative, and Winters positive, for Z209.  Winters is also positive for Z220 -- so he's ordering Z216.  And he's tested negative for Z278.

Onward and upward.

Thanks for posting, Razyn. Is there a score-sheet of sorts, to which you are referring?
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #68 on: March 24, 2012, 07:53:08 AM »

I would call the attention of this forum's readers to the fact that FTDNA now offers a test for one of the new SNPs located below Z196 and above M153.  That SNP is Z209

The first results are coming in today.  Breckenheimer negative, and Winters positive, for Z209.  Winters is also positive for Z220 -- so he's ordering Z216.  And he's tested negative for Z278.

Onward and upward.

My initial feeling was that those Z278+ and below would be more Iberian and those above Z278 would be more non-Iberian. It will be interesting so see if that holds true.
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« Reply #69 on: March 24, 2012, 02:30:05 PM »

Thanks for posting, Razyn. Is there a score-sheet of sorts, to which you are referring?

Not yet.  There's a Z196 subforum, of sorts, on the MolGen forum; it has the most active thread relating specifically to Z209:

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=127

I guess the first people to see most of the results will be the administrators of the R-P312 and Subclades haplogroup project.  But they'll only see them for people who have joined it.

I've heard separately from 7GE4Q, another NS cluster haplotype, that he's Z209+.  My own results haven't yet come in.  But I'm encouraged that a few of these new SNP tests only took 16 days.

Breckenheimer, XJRHT, is Z209- and is not in the NS cluster.  (IIRC he's 437=16, as well as H4=11.)  So he's the most thoroughly asterisked Z196, at the moment.

Here are a couple of interesting GBrowse displays, if the tiny url works (and keeps referring to the same display -- they seem to be sort of mutable):

http://tinyurl.com/7umogmh   This should be for Z209, and as of today what I saw was 14 tested, of which 12 are derived.  And we know Breckenheimer (Mattiacorum as was) got one of the negatives.

http://tinyurl.com/7jbwbce   This, I hope, is Z196, and today shows 286 tested, 72 derived.  It is a little troubling to me that on 9 January (when I posted about this display on a Eupedia thread) the count was 263 tested, 71 derived.  So there has only been one positive (derived) result out of the last 23 tests for Z196.  Can that be right?  Who in the heck is testing?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 04:15:21 PM by razyn » Logged

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« Reply #70 on: March 25, 2012, 11:19:05 AM »

My initial feeling was that those Z278+ and below would be more Iberian and those above Z278 would be more non-Iberian. It will be interesting so see if that holds true.

Do we know that the 1000 Genomes participant in whom Z278 was found had Iberian origins? Does it stand to reason that if this is an Iberian SNP eventually not found in northern members of the NS group, the migration was north to south?

I note in the Genome Browser that the current count for Z278 testing is zero out of six.

Z220 is one out of three.

(Also, by the way, I just asked Rich Stevens to take a look and see who among the Z209 derived results are in the P312 Project.)

(And another addition: Z216 testing is 0-2 and Z214 is 0-6)
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 12:22:40 PM by Matt Winters » Logged

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« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2012, 01:22:07 PM »

This is beginning to have the appearance of some real groundbreaking.

And, welcome to this forum, Matt.
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« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2012, 01:43:50 PM »

My initial feeling was that those Z278+ and below would be more Iberian and those above Z278 would be more non-Iberian. It will be interesting so see if that holds true.

Do we know that the 1000 Genomes participant in whom Z278 was found had Iberian origins? Does it stand to reason that if this is an Iberian SNP eventually not found in northern members of the NS group, the migration was north to south?

I note in the Genome Browser that the current count for Z278 testing is zero out of six.

Z220 is one out of three.

(Also, by the way, I just asked Rich Stevens to take a look and see who among the Z209 derived results are in the P312 Project.)

(And another addition: Z216 testing is 0-2 and Z214 is 0-6)

I actually saw your post first, and have not yet looked at my email, Matt. I just created an R-Z209 category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

Thus far, you, Hjelt (kit 193827, Finland) and Zenker (kit 97920, Czech Republic) are in it, but I'm not done looking for Z209+ results. There could be some more.
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« Reply #73 on: March 25, 2012, 02:01:33 PM »

Rich, I see you are up to ten of the 12 reported positives, including all I've heard from.  Menge is negative.  Rose and I (top and bottom of group Qa, at the moment) tested Z209 in this batch, and I at least haven't heard.  I also tested Z220, no report yet.
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« Reply #74 on: March 25, 2012, 02:08:20 PM »

I've got 12 now. I saw Menge's negative result. The earliest test result I saw was 22 March.

It seems a widespread group, with representatives from Sweden, Finland, Spain, France, the Netherlands, Ukraine, and the Czech Republic, as well as the British Isles.
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