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Author Topic: Z196 and the history of P312  (Read 23529 times)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #250 on: June 01, 2012, 07:59:32 AM »

As per conversations in the Yahoo group, the DF27+ result for Scholz was in his WTY results which is why it does not show on his haplotree page.  I think that since he is a member of the R-P312 Project that he could be included in the DF27 section of the project page.

Additionally, he had another mutation labelled L1231 which at least two DF27+ group members have ordered just in case it is not a private marker.

I try to track this in the P312xL21 spreadsheet in the P312 Yahoo group, but this can only be a manual process so it is important to post any such requests on the P312 Yahoo group.

If SNPs end up being private or there is no testing for them, I generally discard tracking them (at that point.)
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #251 on: June 01, 2012, 09:24:32 AM »

14 of 16 (87.5%) of previously P312* have tested DF27+.

Rough mental "guestimate": the remaining P312* will probably be something in the neighborhood of 5% even in places like Iberia.
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« Reply #252 on: June 12, 2012, 07:28:15 PM »


DF17 is at the same level as Z209 and Z268.

Today an interesting result, DF17-, came in for van den Vliet who is Z209+ and Z268+.   Also I, who am Z196+ , L176.2-,  Z209- and DF17+, received my Z268- result.  This seems to show that DF17 has the following position:


Z196 -------> Z294* --+------> DF17
                                 |
                                 +------> Z209, --------> Z220--------> Z278 -------->M153
                                              Z268

*Z294 is not offered by FTDNA

Has anyone of of the following tested for DF17 in WTY or by advanced order? L176.2+, SRY2627+ or L165+?    From what I see, we don't know if DF17 is upstream of L176.2 or not.   Am I missing anything?

There are now results for DF17 from FTDNA which indicate it's postition on the tree relative to available SNPs.

86995  Pleis------------DF17-, L176.2*
109279 van den Vliet---DF17-, Z209+
N1993 Mulvihill---------DF17+, Z196*, Z209-
N3432 Menge----------DF17+, Z196*, Z209-, Z268-, L176.2-
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razyn
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« Reply #253 on: June 13, 2012, 07:26:17 AM »


DF17 is at the same level as Z209 and Z268.

Today an interesting result, DF17-, came in for van den Vliet who is Z209+ and Z268+.   Also I, who am Z196+ , L176.2-,  Z209- and DF17+, received my Z268- result.  This seems to show that DF17 has the following position:


Z196 -------> Z294* --+------> DF17
                                 |
                                 +------> Z209, --------> Z220--------> Z278 -------->M153
                                              Z268

*Z294 is not offered by FTDNA

Has anyone of of the following tested for DF17 in WTY or by advanced order? L176.2+, SRY2627+ or L165+?    From what I see, we don't know if DF17 is upstream of L176.2 or not.   Am I missing anything?

There are now results for DF17 from FTDNA which indicate its position on the tree relative to available SNPs.


86995  Pleis------------DF17-, L176.2*
109279 van den Vliet---DF17-, Z209+
N1993 Mulvihill---------DF17+, Z196*, Z209-
N3432 Menge----------DF17+, Z196*, Z209-, Z268-, L176.2-

Also, apparently Thomas Krahn just added DF17 to his draft tree, yesterday:

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813460

The little star for DF17 appears one day younger than the other new ones.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #254 on: June 15, 2012, 10:52:34 AM »

A new DF27+ result from the FTDNA Italy project:

Kit no. N104559, Antonio Petrone b. 1795, Acri Cosenza, Italy

Tested DF27+, L165-, L176.2-, M153-, SRY2627-

Family lore has his family coming from Genoa.

Since he only has 12 markers, I recommended he upgrade to 67 and test for Z196. I have also asked that he join the P312 project.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 10:53:30 AM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #255 on: June 15, 2012, 03:12:06 PM »

In case you are following the R1b Ysearch modals thread, I just added a Ysearch record for DF27. This is for all of DF27 and is 96 STRs.  The Yearch record is 53ZBP.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #256 on: June 15, 2012, 03:49:22 PM »

A new DF27+ result from the FTDNA Italy project:

Kit no. N104559, Antonio Petrone b. 1795, Acri Cosenza, Italy

Tested DF27+, L165-, L176.2-, M153-, SRY2627-  

What do you think about these R1b1a2 predicted folks in the Italy project?

48391    Henry Lanata, New Orleans
77953    Alessandro Causa, b.c. 1830, Liguria, Italy
150400      
N15326    Bartolomeo Bacigalupo, 1773, Piandeipreti, Genoa
132155      
195634    Carlo Nevi, d.c. 1866
N11925    Pietro Carbone, Santa Maria Capua Vetere, Italy

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Italy,Italy/default.aspx?section=yresults

They all are 437=14 448<=18. A couple of them are H4=10 as well. If they were P312+ and in my Haplotype_Data_P312xL21 spreadsheet, I would place them in either variety dz-1418* or dz-1418-NS*.  Basically, North-South cluster guys.  They might even be Z209+.

If these guys were all DF27** that ought to make Maliclavelli happy.

If these guys comes out as Z209+, now that would be something too.   Makes you wonder about the North-south Cluster - Scandinavia, England, Germany, France, Iberia, Italy.  I wonder where the TMRCA is going to fall out?

The DF27/Z196 advocates might consider starting a fund to get these guys tested.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 04:02:52 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #257 on: June 15, 2012, 04:08:22 PM »

The DF27/Z196 advocates might consider starting a fund to get these guys tested.

I don't think we have a fund because we don't have a project, and that decision was made by FTDNA nearly a year ago.  They didn't want any new haplogroup projects; one sensed that was because they were getting too much flak from the ones they already had.  Anyway, I'm not currently unhappy in the P312 project.

Also there are many ways I'd rather spend my money than making Maliciavelli happy, but that's entirely beside the point.

Btw I just tried your new DF27 modal, works fine, but only at 67 markers.  Do I have to manually enter the rest of them up to 96?  Seems to me the upgrade from 37 to 67 was more or less automatically posted to Ysearch.  But several other things about Ysearch were malfunctioning, earlier in the spring.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #258 on: June 15, 2012, 05:22:51 PM »

If these guys were all DF27** that ought to make Maliclavelli happy.
I am very busy with my work, but I follow how I can what is happening re. Genetics. My son (my theory) is walking by his feet.
I‘d want only you note that all these surnames are from Liguria (Grotta delle Arene Candide, Agriculturalists by sea to Iberia 7500YBP, Ligurian, Lusitanian, Celt Languages, BB, etc.).
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« Reply #259 on: June 15, 2012, 07:58:44 PM »

The DF27/Z196 advocates might consider starting a fund to get these guys tested.

I don't think we have a fund because we don't have a project, and that decision was made by FTDNA nearly a year ago.  They didn't want any new haplogroup projects; one sensed that was because they were getting too much flak from the ones they already had.  Anyway, I'm not currently unhappy in the P312 project.

Also there are many ways I'd rather spend my money than making Maliciavelli happy, but that's entirely beside the point.

Btw I just tried your new DF27 modal, works fine, but only at 67 markers.  Do I have to manually enter the rest of them up to 96?  Seems to me the upgrade from 37 to 67 was more or less automatically posted to Ysearch.  But several other things about Ysearch were malfunctioning, earlier in the spring.

The Italy project fund is at $0, so if you want to throw some funds our way to test these Italian samples for DF27, I'm all ears :)
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Jdean
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« Reply #260 on: June 15, 2012, 08:17:58 PM »

The DF27/Z196 advocates might consider starting a fund to get these guys tested.

I don't think we have a fund because we don't have a project, and that decision was made by FTDNA nearly a year ago.  They didn't want any new haplogroup projects; one sensed that was because they were getting too much flak from the ones they already had.  Anyway, I'm not currently unhappy in the P312 project.

Also there are many ways I'd rather spend my money than making Maliciavelli happy, but that's entirely beside the point.

Btw I just tried your new DF27 modal, works fine, but only at 67 markers.  Do I have to manually enter the rest of them up to 96?  Seems to me the upgrade from 37 to 67 was more or less automatically posted to Ysearch.  But several other things about Ysearch were malfunctioning, earlier in the spring.

The Italy project fund is at $0, so if you want to throw some funds our way to test these Italian samples for DF27, I'm all ears :)

Sounds like a good idea.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #261 on: June 15, 2012, 09:50:39 PM »

The DF27/Z196 advocates might consider starting a fund to get these guys tested.

I don't think we have a fund because we don't have a project, and that decision was made by FTDNA nearly a year ago.  They didn't want any new haplogroup projects; one sensed that was because they were getting too much flak from the ones they already had.  Anyway, I'm not currently unhappy in the P312 project.

Also there are many ways I'd rather spend my money than making Maliciavelli happy, but that's entirely beside the point.

Btw I just tried your new DF27 modal, works fine, but only at 67 markers.  Do I have to manually enter the rest of them up to 96?  Seems to me the upgrade from 37 to 67 was more or less automatically posted to Ysearch.  But several other things about Ysearch were malfunctioning, earlier in the spring.

The Italy project fund is at $0, so if you want to throw some funds our way to test these Italian samples for DF27, I'm all ears :)

Sounds like a good idea.

There you go.  Italy is a critical location.  The great Cardial Ware Neolithic advance drove through Italy on the way to Iberia.  Somehow, R1b got to Iberia. If it came via the Mediterranean we should see some evidence of this in Italy so the more we know about R1b in Italy, the better.
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« Reply #262 on: June 15, 2012, 09:54:57 PM »

I wish we could get the money together to test all of the predicted R1b1a2 members of the following projects for the major R-L11 SNPs: the Iberian Peninsula DNA Project, the French Heritage DNA Project, the Italy DNA Project, the German Language Area DNA project, etc.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 09:55:21 PM by rms2 » Logged

Richard Rocca
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« Reply #263 on: June 16, 2012, 07:15:40 AM »

Thanks to the generous person who left the $100 donation!!! Please send me a PM so we can discuss which kits are best to test.
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« Reply #264 on: June 17, 2012, 04:26:47 AM »

Thanks to the generous person who left the $100 donation!!! Please send me a PM so we can discuss which kits are best to test.
RRocca, of those 100$ I’d spend a little part for DeLucia, who could be DF27-:

35429 Antonio DeLucia R1b1a2a1a1b R-P312 L11+, L21-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-
35429 Antonio DeLucia Italy R1b1a2a1a1b
13 24 14 11 11-17 12 12 13 12 13 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 15 19 17 38-38 12 12    

None on YHRD, but one American of the Lakes Region, possibly of Italian origin, with DYS385=11-16, and, amongst other haplotypes linked, this from Modena, Etruscan region with many R-L23 like mine:

1 14 12 28 24 11 13 13 12,16 12 12 15 19 15 18 23 11 >>
1 of 130 Modena, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 04:32:05 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #265 on: June 18, 2012, 03:43:28 PM »

Since the donation was made in order to find DF27+ folks, there look to be pretty good bets and also have the important geographical information that is of use to us:

77953 Alessandro Causa, b.c. 1830, Liguria, Italy
N15326 Bartolomeo Bacigalupo, 1773, Piandeipreti, Genoa
N11925 Pietro Carbone, Santa Maria Capua Vetere, Italy
182742 Antonio Nigro abt. 1854, Potenza Province, Italy

Let me know if you think these are good candidates.

The other question is: do I have them tested for DF27? Z196? Z209?
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« Reply #266 on: June 18, 2012, 05:35:30 PM »

I think that to find a R-P312+/DF27- would be more interesting, but, being DF27- so rare, probably also DeLucia will be DF27+, anyway it would be worth to test him.
All the other Italians, above all those from Ligurian extraction, merit to be tested.

About Bacigalupo someone let you already note that he is P312-.

Of course the SNPs should be tested beginning from the upstream one.
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« Reply #267 on: June 18, 2012, 05:42:05 PM »

Hi there, is this something I should test for? Thank you.
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« Reply #268 on: June 18, 2012, 05:45:41 PM »

Hi there, is this something I should test for? Thank you.
Not, of course. You have already found your final (so far) SNPs (Z144/Z145/Z146+ ).
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« Reply #269 on: June 18, 2012, 05:55:00 PM »

Okay, thank you.
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« Reply #270 on: June 18, 2012, 06:27:54 PM »

About Bacigalupo someone let you already note that he is P312-.

Gioiello: since you are an actual Italian, as distinguished from the Brooklyn-paisan types I play music with, it may come as a surprise that this surname is a sort of joke in the USA.  Or anyway, it once was, and I'm old enough to remember it.  There's actually a pretty complex story about it:

http://roccosmusicamusica.blogspot.com/2011/06/of-baciagalou-baciagaloop-and.html
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« Reply #271 on: June 19, 2012, 12:47:55 AM »

Gioiello: since you are an actual Italian, as distinguished from the Brooklyn-paisan types I play music with, it may come as a surprise that this surname is a sort of joke in the USA.  Or anyway, it once was, and I'm old enough to remember it.  There's actually a pretty complex story about it:
http://roccosmusicamusica.blogspot.com/2011/06/of-baciagalou-baciagaloop-and.html
I thank you for this interesting link. I could remember the Bacigalupo of the great Turin (soccer team) who died at Superga on 4 May 1949 in a plane accident: Bacigalupo Ballarin Maroso…
But to know how interesting is this surname and typically Ligurian, this is what is written in “Origine dei cognomi italiani”:

Baccigalupi è genovese, Baccigaluppi, estremamente raro è ligure, Bacigalupi rarissimo sembrerebbe dello spezzino, Bacigaluppi, assolutamente rarissimo, è specifico di Camporosso (IM), Bacigaluppo è praticamente unico, tracce di queste cognominizzazioni le troviamo a Ventimiglia (IM) nel 1700 con il prelato monsignor Antonio Maria Bacigaluppi.
integrazioni fornite da Fabio Paolucci
Tipico cognome ligure, è una variante del più diffuso Bacigalupo, particolarmente presente nei comuni di Genova, Chiavari e Lavagna. Altre forme cognominali derivate, sempre liguri ma riscontrabili anche in altre regioni per migrazioni avvenute in passato, sono Bacigalupi e Baccigalupo. Il cognome è di difficile interpretazione: deriva da una frase composta dal verbo, sicuramente dialettale ligure, baciga, terza persona singolare di bacigare unito al termine lupo. Più interpretazioni etimologiche possono assere avanzate per la spiegazione del significato del verbo bacigare: la prima ipotesi considera il termine francese bac, che significa letteralmente traghetto, battello; bacigare potrebbe derivare dalla acquisizione del vocabolo francese con italianizzazione in senso dialettale e trasformazione nel verbo bac-igar. Il cognome potrebbe essere originato dal soprannome attribuito ad un uomo che traghettava i lupi o il lupo, forse connotazione dispregiativa di un predone che costituiva una minaccia proveniente dal mare. Altra tesi, forse più plausibile, prende in esame i termini greci bactereùo o bactreùa (bastone, verga) e bactaricrousa (picchio col bastone), nonchè il vocabolo latino baculum (bastone, verga) ed il suo diminutivo bacillum (bastone, verga usata dai littori; quindi usata da chi esercitava un potere), da cui potrebbe derivare in dialetto ligure arcaico bacigo nel senso di picchio con il bastone. Considerando il fatto che il bastone della tradizione latina, il bacillum, era quello adoperato da un uomo che esercitava il potere, si può sostenere che il cognome Bacigalupo sia nato nei secoli scorsi come soprannome assegnato in maniera canzonatoria ad un personaggio che era solito coraggiosamante colpire i lupi con la sua verga probabilmente per allontanarli dalla sua abitazione o dalle sue bestie se era un pastore; probabile anche che fosse un lavoratore di pelli di lupo allo scopo di produrre capi di abbigliamento.  Tra i Bacigalupo vanno ricordati alcuni personaggi illustri: Nicolò (1837 - 1904), tesoriere del comune di Genova e poeta di nota fama, il colonnello Bacigalupo, cui toccò l'onore di scortare, con uno scelto drappello di truppe a cavallo, gli ospiti francesi (fra cui Giuseppina Bonaparte) lungo la strada della Bocchetta negli anni della Repubblica Ligure (1797 - 1799); negli stessi anni del colonnello un tale Paolo Bacigalupo fu autore di una sommossa a Chiavari.
integrazioni e stemma forniti da Alessandro Bacigalupo
Nello stemma dei Bacigaluppo c'è un lupo che tiene le quattro zampe su un piatto da bilancia che in genovese si dice bansiga. Si potrebbe ipotizzare una derivazione dal mestiere di commerciante di pellame.
integrazioni fornite da Alberto Bacigalupi
Bacigalupi è cognome originario esclusivamente di una frazione del comune di Rezzoaglio, in Val d'Aveto - entroterra di Chiavari (Liguria provincia di Genova, Levante). Non è originario dello spezzino dove nasce circa verso il 1900 per il trasferimento di emigranti che in attesa di imbarco per le Americhe trovano lavoro all'Arsenale di La Spezia e lì si fermano.
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« Reply #272 on: July 05, 2012, 01:01:10 PM »

Figured I'd resurrect this old thread..

I was doing some of the old school genealogy work on my Isaacs family and discovered that they had alot of dealings with the Lindsay/Lindsey family of Frederick.. Infact, the land that was purchased by Mdka Samuel Isaeck sr. was apart of the greater land plot owned by the Lindsay family..

Anyways, the reason I'm telling you all this, is that this particular Lindsay family is Z196* positive.. They seem to be Anglo-Scottish in origin.. though if one reads further back Clan Lindsay seems to be of Anglo-Saxon derivation in Lincolnshire if I'm not mistaken..

From Wikipedia.. "Although certainly ancient, there remains debate to this day as to whether Clan Lindsay first arose from British, Saxon, Norman or Flemish family lines. While there is a long tradition of descent from Normans who arrived with William the Conqueror, the matter is complicated by evidence of a Saxon "Kingdom of Lindsay" that long predated the coming of the Normans."

Didn't know if anyone was aware of this family grouping of Z196*. Which is particularly interesting for me and my Isaeck grouping of SRY2627.
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« Reply #273 on: July 05, 2012, 11:06:58 PM »

I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.
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« Reply #274 on: July 06, 2012, 01:09:03 AM »

I researched a number of Lincolnshire familes as part of my Border studies. Many of the clans of the Borders were of Flemish stock. Gilbert de Ghent, 1st Earl of Lincoln, was a Fleming. His third son was Walter of Folkingham, Lincs. In 1124, Walter accompanied David, Earl of Huntingdon, when he went north to claim the Scottish throne. Walter settled at Earlston, Tweeddale & it seems that he established the surname Lindsay in homage to his Lincs roots.
Parts of Lincs were known as 'The Kingdom of Lindsey'. The only differences between Walter's name & the old Anglo-Saxon territory was the use of the letter 'a' instead of 'e'. The Lindsays were often Lord Chamberlains of Scotland during the 13th - 14th Cs.  One served Robert the Bruce. The Bruce's were probably Flemings who moved to the Cotentin. The Bruce coat of arms is identical to the Bruges 'Blue Lion'.
Beryle Platts makes a good case for the following being Flemish in origin:
Douglas, Hamilton, Hay, Murray, Rutherford & Graham.
I believe the Augustinian Priories in the Scottish Borders were a major link: Wool exports saw Roxburgh exporting directly to Flanders in the 13th C. David I & other monarchs encouraged Flemings into his realm.
Cheers
Bob
PS There was also a Breton presence in Lincs, adjacent to the Flemish families. I also researched a number of links between the Cotentin Peninsula, Normandy leading to Lincs, then on to Cumbria.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 07:25:17 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
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