Z196 and the history of P312

[gogogenes]

Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (L196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit # and changed L176.2 to L196

You should be one of a number of DF27* folks to show up.  Hopefully, the P312* crowd knows about this.

There are three DF27+ thus far today, all with y-dna ancestry in England.

They can be seen in the new R-DF27 category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

Good job.  I see kit #155150 Butler from the New World: British Isles Surnames section is also DF27 and Kit #E8202 Scholz from the Eastern European section had a previous a DF27+ result (WTY?).

[breckenheimer]

Dick, am I correct in thinking that there is no point in you and I and others who are Z220+ testing either DF27 or 17? We're downstream from both?

We're downstream from DF27.  Though I think somebody needs to test it, to hang it on the ISOGG tree (and, in effect, bump both Z196 and Z225 down one level).

I have no idea where DF17 is, on a tree diagram, with respect to all the new Z-SNPs (or L176.2).  The Gbrowse page says "under Z195/Z196."  And so are we all... but where?

DF17 is at the same level as Z209 and Z268.

Today an interesting result, DF17-, came in for van den Vliet who is Z209+ and Z268+.   Also I, who am Z196+ , L176.2-,  Z209- and DF17+, received my Z268- result.  This seems to show that DF17 has the following position:


Z196 -------> Z294* --+------> DF17
                                 |
                                 +------> Z209, --------> Z220--------> Z278 -------->M153
                                              Z268


*Z294 is not offered by FTDNA

[Mikewww]

Dick, am I correct in thinking that there is no point in you and I and others who are Z220+ testing either DF27 or 17? We're downstream from both?

We're downstream from DF27.  Though I think somebody needs to test it, to hang it on the ISOGG tree (and, in effect, bump both Z196 and Z225 down one level).

I have no idea where DF17 is, on a tree diagram, with respect to all the new Z-SNPs (or L176.2).  The Gbrowse page says "under Z195/Z196."  And so are we all... but where?

DF17 is at the same level as Z209 and Z268.

Today an interesting result, DF17-, came in for van den Vliet who is Z209+ and Z268+.   Also I, who am Z196+ , L176.2-,  Z209- and DF17+, received my Z268- result.  This seems to show that DF17 has the following position:


Z196 -------> Z294* --+------> DF17
                                 |
                                 +------> Z209, --------> Z220--------> Z278 -------->M153
                                              Z268

*Z294 is not offered by FTDNA

Has anyone of of the following tested for DF17 in WTY or by advanced order? L176.2+, SRY2627+ or L165+?    From what I see, we don't know if DF17 is upstream of L176.2 or not.   Am I missing anything?

[Richard Rocca]

Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (L196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit # and changed L176.2 to L196

You should be one of a number of DF27* folks to show up.  Hopefully, the P312* crowd knows about this.

There are three DF27+ thus far today, all with y-dna ancestry in England.

They can be seen in the new R-DF27 category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

It looks like the FTDNA P312 project now has 8 of 9 previously P312(xZ196) kits as DF27+

They are: H1763, 155150, 98943, N17543, N2642, 90959, 201722, 16848

Kit 16848 (Zambrano) looks to be of Spanish ancestry.

[Mikewww]

Dick, am I correct in thinking that there is no point in you and I and others who are Z220+ testing either DF27 or 17? We're downstream from both?

We're downstream from DF27.  Though I think somebody needs to test it, to hang it on the ISOGG tree (and, in effect, bump both Z196 and Z225 down one level).

I have no idea where DF17 is, on a tree diagram, with respect to all the new Z-SNPs (or L176.2).  The Gbrowse page says "under Z195/Z196."  And so are we all... but where?

DF17 is at the same level as Z209 and Z268.

Today an interesting result, DF17-, came in for van den Vliet who is Z209+ and Z268+.   Also I, who am Z196+ , L176.2-,  Z209- and DF17+, received my Z268- result.  This seems to show that DF17 has the following position:


Z196 -------> Z294* --+------> DF17
                                 |
                                 +------> Z209, --------> Z220--------> Z278 -------->M153
                                              Z268

*Z294 is not offered by FTDNA

Has anyone of of the following tested for DF17 in WTY or by advanced order? L176.2+, SRY2627+ or L165+?    From what I see, we don't know if DF17 is upstream of L176.2 or not.   Am I missing anything?

I have a variety of Z196 probable folks that I label z1518 for the STR signature:
448<=18 19=15 390=23

I see fN3432 Menge fits into z1518-A and of course he is DF17+.  These guys are prime candidates for DF17 testing to see how widespread it is.

[Bruce Trinque]

Am I correct in understanding that a previous result of Z196+ would automatically mean DF27+ as well?

[Mikewww]

Am I correct in understanding that a previous result of Z196+ would automatically mean DF27+ as well?

Yes, I believe it has now been proven that Z196 is downstream of DF27.

Does anyone have any different information?

If you are Z196+ or SRY2627+ or Z209+ or M153+ or L176.2+ or L165+ there is no need to teset for DF27.  You are DF27+ by default of the phylogenetic tree structure.

[realdealt]

Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (L196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit # and changed L176.2 to L196

You should be one of a number of DF27* folks to show up.  Hopefully, the P312* crowd knows about this.

There are three DF27+ thus far today, all with y-dna ancestry in England.

They can be seen in the new R-DF27 category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

It looks like the FTDNA P312 project now has 8 of 9 previously P312(xZ196) kits as DF27+

They are: H1763, 155150, 98943, N17543, N2642, 90959, 201722, 16848

Kit 16848 (Zambrano) looks to be of Spanish ancestry.

Wow!!!! ...fast results from FTDNA.
Kit 16848 (Zambrano) is indeed of Iberian origin.....because this kit would be ME!
.....no longer R-P312*
.....now what?

Robert Tarín

[Mikewww]

Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (L196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit # and changed L176.2 to L196

You should be one of a number of DF27* folks to show up.  Hopefully, the P312* crowd knows about this.

There are three DF27+ thus far today, all with y-dna ancestry in England.

They can be seen in the new R-DF27 category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

It looks like the FTDNA P312 project now has 8 of 9 previously P312(xZ196) kits as DF27+

They are: H1763, 155150, 98943, N17543, N2642, 90959, 201722, 16848

Kit 16848 (Zambrano) looks to be of Spanish ancestry.

Wow!!!! ...fast results from FTDNA.
Kit 16848 (Zambrano) is indeed of Iberian origin.....because this kit would be ME!
.....no longer R-P312*
.....now what?

Robert Tarín

Yippeee!   Congratulations.

I just was just referred to another DF27 guy, in the Scottish project.  He is in the Rox2 cluster.  This is a pretty good sized group.  DF27 is growing with leaps and bounds.  Richard R and the anonymous researcher hit this one correctly, for sure.

[realdealt]

Anyone done any calculations on the age of the DF27 subclade yet?

[breckenheimer]

DF17 is at the same level as Z209 and Z268.

Today an interesting result, DF17-, came in for van den Vliet who is Z209+ and Z268+.   Also I, who am Z196+ , L176.2-,  Z209- and DF17+, received my Z268- result.  This seems to show that DF17 has the following position:


Z196 -------> Z294* --+------> DF17
                                |
                                +------> Z209, --------> Z220--------> Z278 -------->M153
                                              Z268

*Z294 is not offered by FTDNA

Has anyone of of the following tested for DF17 in WTY or by advanced order? L176.2+, SRY2627+ or L165+?    From what I see, we don't know if DF17 is upstream of L176.2 or not.   Am I missing anything?

Rich Rocca had indicated that DF17 was on the same level as Z209 based upon research from 2000 Genomes, and the recent tests for DF17 have partially confirmed, but I don't believe anyone who is L176.2+ has tested for DF17, which if they are DF17-, would fully confirm the placement on FTDNA testing as well.

[rms2]

Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (L196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit # and changed L176.2 to L196

You should be one of a number of DF27* folks to show up.  Hopefully, the P312* crowd knows about this.

There are three DF27+ thus far today, all with y-dna ancestry in England.

They can be seen in the new R-DF27 category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

Good job.  I see kit #155150 Butler from the New World: British Isles Surnames section is also DF27 and Kit #E8202 Scholz from the Eastern European section had a previous a DF27+ result (WTY?).

Scholz has no DF27 result listed on his Haplotree page.

There are now eight men in the R-DF27 category.

I haven't seen a DF27- result yet, although I could have missed somebody.

[Jdean]

I haven't seen a DF27- result yet, although I could have missed somebody.

Kit no. 51865 and there is also a result in WTY for kit no.93184 who's in the Macgregor project

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/macgregor/default.aspx?section=ysnp

both Scottish ancestry which I thought interesting but I haven’t been through the SNPs they've tested for properly to see if they could be on a known DF27 neg branch.

[chris1]

Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (L196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit # and changed L176.2 to L196

You should be one of a number of DF27* folks to show up.  Hopefully, the P312* crowd knows about this.

There are three DF27+ thus far today, all with y-dna ancestry in England.

They can be seen in the new R-DF27 category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

It looks like the FTDNA P312 project now has 8 of 9 previously P312(xZ196) kits as DF27+

They are: H1763, 155150, 98943, N17543, N2642, 90959, 201722, 16848

Kit 16848 (Zambrano) looks to be of Spanish ancestry.

Sorry if I've missed it but is the DF27 status of the P312 subclades, L238, DF19 and L617 known?

[rms2]

Sorry if I've missed it but is the DF27 status of the P312 subclades, L238, DF19 and L617 known?

That's an excellent question.

I also want to ask where Z278 belongs on the Z196 tree.

I don't see it here.

[rms2]

Sorry if I've missed it but is the DF27 status of the P312 subclades, L238, DF19 and L617 known?

Okay, I just went through the R-P312 and Subclades Project list of people who have tested for DF27.

I can't find any guys who are L238+, DF19+, or L617+ who have actually tested for DF27 yet.

Your post did inspire me to create an R-L617 category on our Y-DNA Results pages, however. Interestingly, both L617+ guys have ancestry in Cambridgeshire in England.

[chris1]

Sorry if I've missed it but is the DF27 status of the P312 subclades, L238, DF19 and L617 known?

Okay, I just went through the R-P312 and Subclades Project list of people who have tested for DF27.

I can't find any guys who are L238+, DF19+, or L617+ who have actually tested for DF27 yet.

Your post did inspire me to create an R-L617 category on our Y-DNA Results pages, however. Interestingly, both L617+ guys have ancestry in Cambridgeshire in England.

Thanks. I was wondering about a possible connection as some Rox2 had tested negative for Z196, L238, DF19 and L617 but a Rox2 member has just tested DF27+. I had a feeling (as did goldenhind, I think) that there might be an undiscovered, older SNP, upstream of those subclades, ie. their ancestor. Now DF27 has come along and it seems quite old..

[Richard Rocca]

Sorry if I've missed it but is the DF27 status of the P312 subclades, L238, DF19 and L617 known?

That's an excellent question.

I also want to ask where Z278 belongs on the Z196 tree.

I don't see it here.

Z278 is "rs1469371" in the graphic. DF27 is its own separate branch from L238 and  DF19.

[rms2]

Sorry if I've missed it but is the DF27 status of the P312 subclades, L238, DF19 and L617 known?

That's an excellent question.

I also want to ask where Z278 belongs on the Z196 tree.

I don't see it here.

Z278 is "rs1469371" in the graphic. DF27 is its own separate branch from L238 and  DF19.

Thanks, Rich.

[palamede]

Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (L196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit # and changed L176.2 to L196

L196 is R1b1a2a1a1b3c2 downstream of U152 and L2, I suppose you want to say "Z196" downstream of P312 and DF27 and brother to Z225 .

[Mikewww]

Sorry if I've missed it but is the DF27 status of the P312 subclades, L238, DF19 and L617 known?

That's an excellent question.

I also want to ask where Z278 belongs on the Z196 tree.

I don't see it here.

Z278 is "rs1469371" in the graphic. DF27 is its own separate branch from L238 and  DF19.

We need to get this validated in the FTDNA system so we can get DF27 formally positioned.  Have any L238's or DF19's participated in WTY?  Has anyone ordered DF27? We only need one per subclade.

[Bruce Trinque]

I just got results back today showing me positive for Z278 and Z214 (previous tests were positive for Z209, Z220, and Z216, but negative for M153).  Apparently my ancestral line split off just before the Basques acquired M153.  Instead my family drifted a bit east and ended up in the northern fringe of Catalonia, in the French foothills of the eastern Pyrenees.

Any suggestions for any additional useful SNP testing?

[gogogenes]

Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (L196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit # and changed L176.2 to L196

You should be one of a number of DF27* folks to show up.  Hopefully, the P312* crowd knows about this.

There are three DF27+ thus far today, all with y-dna ancestry in England.

They can be seen in the new R-DF27 category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

Good job.  I see kit #155150 Butler from the New World: British Isles Surnames section is also DF27 and Kit #E8202 Scholz from the Eastern European section had a previous a DF27+ result (WTY?).

Scholz has no DF27 result listed on his Haplotree page.

There are now eight men in the R-DF27 category.

I haven't seen a DF27- result yet, although I could have missed somebody.

As per conversations in the Yahoo group, the DF27+ result for Scholz was in his WTY results which is why it does not show on his haplotree page.  I think that since he is a member of the R-P312 Project that he could be included in the DF27 section of the project page.

Additionally, he had another mutation labelled L1231 which at least two DF27+ group members have ordered just in case it is not a private marker.

[rms2]

I am sorry, but I am not going to get into the business of keeping track of WTY results that don't show up on a member's Haplotree page. All the new SNPs without support from either the YCC tree or the ISOGG tree are enough of an administrative nightmare for me.

[breckenheimer]

I have a variety of Z196 probable folks that I label z1518 for the STR signature:
448<=18 19=15 390=23

I see fN3432 Menge fits into z1518-A and of course he is DF17+.  These guys are prime candidates for DF17 testing to see how widespread it is.

Some DF17 news:  Today Mulvihill (kit N1993) of Irish patrilineage tested positive for DF17.  He shares a number of off-modal STR values with Menge/Männchen (me) which you pointed out.