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Author Topic: Neolithic Farmers and the Spread of Indo-European, The Case for Euphratic, etc.  (Read 13660 times)
Heber
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« Reply #150 on: August 07, 2011, 09:05:42 AM »

The cover story of the June 2011 National Geographic magazine features the extraordinary archaeological site of Göbekli Tepe in southern Turkey. Built some 11,600 years ago, it is revolutionizing theories on the development of agriculture, religion, and civilization.

http://science.nationalgeographic.com/science/archaeology/photos/gobekli-tepe/

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/gobekli-tepe/musi-photography

Who were the people who build this monument. Could they have been R1b-M269 or their ancestors. The Myres study places R1b-M269 in Anotolia at that period. I have plotted the Myres data by Age and Frequency and speculated on the possible migration paths of M269 to his decendants M222.

http://www.box.net/shared/3vxrpcxib9
http://www.box.net/shared/hxp8ie25yv
http://www.box.net/shared/f74c09ti18
http://www.box.net/shared/5q6v31vqcx

Gobekli Tepe would appear to have marked the transition from hunter gatherer to farming. It is located on the northern edge of the Fertile Crescent.
One of the oldest Neolithic Cities was nearby Catal Huyuk.
http://www.catalhoyuk.com/history.html
Some of the first evidence for plant domestication comes from Nevalı Çori, a settlement in the mountains scarcely 20 miles away.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neval%C4%B1_%C3%87ori

"At first the Neolithic Revolution was viewed as a single event—a sudden flash of genius—that occurred in a single location, Mesopotamia, between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in what is now southern Iraq, then spread to India, Europe, and beyond. Most archaeologists believed this sudden blossoming of civilization was driven largely by environmental changes: a gradual warming as the Ice Age ended that allowed some people to begin cultivating plants and herding animals in abundance. The new research suggests that the "revolution" was actually carried out by many hands across a huge area and over thousands of years. And it may have been driven not by the environment but by something else entirely".

"Schmidt speculates that foragers living within a hundred-mile radius of Göbekli Tepe created the temple as a holy place to gather and meet, perhaps bringing gifts and tributes to its priests and crafts people. Some kind of social organization would have been necessary not only to build it but also to deal with the crowds it attracted".

"Over time, Schmidt believes, the need to acquire sufficient food for those who worked and gathered for ceremonies at Göbekli Tepe may have led to the intensive cultivation of wild cereals and the creation of some of the first domestic strains. Indeed, scientists now believe that one center of agriculture arose in southern Turkey—well within trekking distance of Göbekli Tepe—at exactly the time the temple was at its height. Today the closest known wild ancestors of modern einkorn wheat are found on the slopes of Karaca Dağ, a mountain just 60 miles northeast of Göbekli Tepe. In other words, the turn to agriculture celebrated by V. Gordon Childe may have been the result of a need that runs deep in the human psyche, a hunger that still moves people today to travel the globe in search of awe-inspiring sights".

"Some of the first evidence for plant domestication comes from Nevalı Çori (pronounced nuh-vah-LUH CHO-ree), a settlement in the mountains scarcely 20 miles away. Like Göbekli Tepe, Nevalı Çori came into existence right after the mini ice age, a time archaeologists describe with the unlovely term Pre-pottery Neolithic (PPN)".
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rms2
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« Reply #151 on: August 07, 2011, 01:31:29 PM »


. . .

With regard to the process of ore mining, Dienekes reported on a current study on the Abergele area in North Wales. You may recall that this area has an incidence of E3b (correct me if I have incorrectly remembered this) in this copper mining area which is of the order of 30 times higher than other areas in the UK, or indeed western Europe.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/07/eastern-mediterranean-marker-in.html

. . .

cheers
authun

I remember reading the report that contained that information on the E1b1b (old E3b) in Abergele. The sample size was small, as I recall. The Wikipedia article on Abergele says it was 18. I don't recall, but that sounds right.

The elevated level of E1b1b (E-V13, really) there has been attributed to a Roman settlement and trading post near Abergele. I know those are weasel words, but I don't have a source. I just recall reading it somewhere. It wasn't the Wikipedia article. It might have been Steve Bird's article (cited by the Wikipedia article) in the Journal of Genetic Genealogy. Sorry.

I am not up on the latest E1b1b stuff, but I believe E-V13 is mainly a Balkan subclade.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 01:35:36 PM by rms2 » Logged

authun
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« Reply #152 on: August 07, 2011, 02:04:15 PM »

I am not up on the latest E1b1b stuff, but I believe E-V13 is mainly a Balkan subclade.

Yes, that's what I thought too. It's why I wrote 'Irrespective of the actual origin of these peoples'.

The Dienekes blog cites a BBC web page which uses the term eastern mediterranean, though the BBC web page refers to Grierson's study which states: "We have reason to suspect this because a previous investigation in North Wales reported a much higher than average presence of a DNA marker that is commonly found in people from the Balkans and Spain."

http://www.shef.ac.uk/archaeology/research/copper-mines/index.html

You are correct that the original study, Weale et al sampled only 18 people in 2002 but the BBC article claims that since Grierson's study started in 2009, 500 people have been analysed with the 30% result.

best
authun
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 02:14:21 PM by authun » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #153 on: August 07, 2011, 03:30:08 PM »

I am not up on the latest E1b1b stuff, but I believe E-V13 is mainly a Balkan subclade.

Yes, that's what I thought too. It's why I wrote 'Irrespective of the actual origin of these peoples'.

The Dienekes blog cites a BBC web page which uses the term eastern mediterranean, though the BBC web page refers to Grierson's study which states: "We have reason to suspect this because a previous investigation in North Wales reported a much higher than average presence of a DNA marker that is commonly found in people from the Balkans and Spain."

http://www.shef.ac.uk/archaeology/research/copper-mines/index.html

You are correct that the original study, Weale et al sampled only 18 people in 2002 but the BBC article claims that since Grierson's study started in 2009, 500 people have been analysed with the 30% result.

best
authun

Now that's a substantial sample. Must be something to it: a little SE European colony in Wales.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #154 on: August 07, 2011, 07:11:09 PM »

Is metallurgy thought to have come in at the same time and from the same direction? Are these thought to have been introduced by a migration of people, or are they thought to have been spread solely by cultural diffusion?

There is no consensus on this yet but there are some investigations which are current.

There are two aspects to the subject, 1. the knowledge of metal and metalworking and 2. the ability to identify, mine and process ores.

With regard to the process of ore mining, Dienekes reported on a current study on the Abergele area in North Wales. You may recall that this area has an incidence of E3b (correct me if I have incorrectly remembered this) in this copper mining area which is of the order of 30 times higher than other areas in the UK, or indeed western Europe.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/07/eastern-mediterranean-marker-in.html

Irrespective of the actual origin of these peoples, once ore bearing seams have been identified, it seems logical to me that someone wants to control it and that he wants specialist miners to extract it. One cannot easily persuade farmers to stop producing food and take up mining. On the other hand, those miners need feeding so they will have to trade something with the local farmers and locally produced farming tools seems an obvious item.

Another subject under investigation are the trade routes for processed metals. The Nordic Bronze Age for example was thought to be serviced by copper through a trade route with the tin producing Lusatian Culture and the copper coming ultimately from the Alpine region around Bischofshofen. However, analysis of the Fröslunda shields in Sweden, the largest find of this Herzsprung type, about 18 in total, shows that the copper is from a sulphide ore. Sweden is one of Europe's richest areas of sulphide minerals and the copper in Scandinavian bronzes from about 1600 BC onwards differs in character from that of earlier bronze and copper items that are based on the conventional continental copper ores. Whilst tools have been found in Sweden which are similar to mining tools found on the continent, no mines have been found in Sweden. There is now a programme to get the copper from more Nordic Bronze Age finds analysed and look into the possibility that Nordic bronze was a local phenomena.

You can see the tin producing areas on fig. 3 in Sources of Tin and the Beginnings of Bronze Metallurgy:

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/documents/personal-album-272/Sources-of-Tin-and-the-Beginnings-of-Bronze-Metallurgy.pdf

Interest started when it was discovered that the Nebra Sky Disc contained copper and gold from the British Isles and tin, probably, from the Erzgebirge. Previously it had been assumed that the copper was from Bischofshofen. The current nordic bronze project is by the University of Gothenburg, 'Extraction of copper in Sweden during the Bronze Age? Possibility, myth or reality?'. The abstract is given below:

"Since the work of Oscar Montelius on the Nordic Bronze Age, an established and
unques-tioned dogma has been that throughout the Bronze Age all copper in
Scandinavia was im-ported from central Europe. However, a new and original
Bronze Age culture, displaying a high level of technical and artistic mastery,
emerged in Scandinavia from about 1600 BC on-wards. This sudden rise and
continuation of the Nordic Bronze Age is an enigma that still lacks satisfactory
economic and social explanatory models. The traditional theories about
Scandinavian Bronze Age have never been tested by means of scientific methods."


http://www.historiskastudier.gu.se/english/research/extraction_of_copper_in_sweden_during_the_bronze_age+/

I have just returned from a trip Sweden and Denmark and the number of items, lurs, shields, swords etc is remarkable. It is hard to believe that the metals were imported. The quantity is simply too great. What would they have traded in return? Amber doesn't seem a credible commodity. How the knowledge of metallurgy entered Scandinavia is another mystery but the number of rock carvings with boats and chariots strongly suggests movements of peoples. These peoples knew how to extract copper from sulphide ores whereas most continental sources at that time were from arsenic ores.

But we will have to wait for the results of the studies.

cheers
authun







Thanks.Welcome back. It sounds like this remains an open issue.

What about the introduction of horses and wheeled vehicles into Europe? Can you help with that question?
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #155 on: August 07, 2011, 07:14:56 PM »

Is metallurgy thought to have come in at the same time and from the same direction? Are these thought to have been introduced by a migration of people, or are they thought to have been spread solely by cultural diffusion?

There is no consensus on this yet but there are some investigations which are current.

There are two aspects to the subject, 1. the knowledge of metal and metalworking and 2. the ability to identify, mine and process ores.

With regard to the process of ore mining, Dienekes reported on a current study on the Abergele area in North Wales. You may recall that this area has an incidence of E3b (correct me if I have incorrectly remembered this) in this copper mining area which is of the order of 30 times higher than other areas in the UK, or indeed western Europe.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/07/eastern-mediterranean-marker-in.html

Irrespective of the actual origin of these peoples, once ore bearing seams have been identified, it seems logical to me that someone wants to control it and that he wants specialist miners to extract it. One cannot easily persuade farmers to stop producing food and take up mining. On the other hand, those miners need feeding so they will have to trade something with the local farmers and locally produced farming tools seems an obvious item.

Another subject under investigation are the trade routes for processed metals. The Nordic Bronze Age for example was thought to be serviced by copper through a trade route with the tin producing Lusatian Culture and the copper coming ultimately from the Alpine region around Bischofshofen. However, analysis of the Fröslunda shields in Sweden, the largest find of this Herzsprung type, about 18 in total, shows that the copper is from a sulphide ore. Sweden is one of Europe's richest areas of sulphide minerals and the copper in Scandinavian bronzes from about 1600 BC onwards differs in character from that of earlier bronze and copper items that are based on the conventional continental copper ores. Whilst tools have been found in Sweden which are similar to mining tools found on the continent, no mines have been found in Sweden. There is now a programme to get the copper from more Nordic Bronze Age finds analysed and look into the possibility that Nordic bronze was a local phenomena.

You can see the tin producing areas on fig. 3 in Sources of Tin and the Beginnings of Bronze Metallurgy:

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/documents/personal-album-272/Sources-of-Tin-and-the-Beginnings-of-Bronze-Metallurgy.pdf

Interest started when it was discovered that the Nebra Sky Disc contained copper and gold from the British Isles and tin, probably, from the Erzgebirge. Previously it had been assumed that the copper was from Bischofshofen. The current nordic bronze project is by the University of Gothenburg, 'Extraction of copper in Sweden during the Bronze Age? Possibility, myth or reality?'. The abstract is given below:

"Since the work of Oscar Montelius on the Nordic Bronze Age, an established and
unques-tioned dogma has been that throughout the Bronze Age all copper in
Scandinavia was im-ported from central Europe. However, a new and original
Bronze Age culture, displaying a high level of technical and artistic mastery,
emerged in Scandinavia from about 1600 BC on-wards. This sudden rise and
continuation of the Nordic Bronze Age is an enigma that still lacks satisfactory
economic and social explanatory models. The traditional theories about
Scandinavian Bronze Age have never been tested by means of scientific methods."


http://www.historiskastudier.gu.se/english/research/extraction_of_copper_in_sweden_during_the_bronze_age+/

I have just returned from a trip Sweden and Denmark and the number of items, lurs, shields, swords etc is remarkable. It is hard to believe that the metals were imported. The quantity is simply too great. What would they have traded in return? Amber doesn't seem a credible commodity. How the knowledge of metallurgy entered Scandinavia is another mystery but the number of rock carvings with boats and chariots strongly suggests movements of peoples. These peoples knew how to extract copper from sulphide ores whereas most continental sources at that time were from arsenic ores.

But we will have to wait for the results of the studies.

cheers
authun







Thanks. Welcome back. It sounds like this remains an open issue. The extent of trading networks in Europe in the Bronze Age may well be greater than is currently envisaged.

What about the introduction of horses and wheeled vehicles into Europe? Can you help with that question? When, by whom, and whether connected with a migration or merely cultural diffusion?
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A.D.
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« Reply #156 on: August 07, 2011, 10:04:02 PM »

This site has some good ideas on the introduction of horses and horse riding.

http://www.svincent.com/CrystalObelisk/DontEatThem/HorseHistoryEurope.html

A lot of the arguments revolve around  the size of riders and horses around 4,000 BC. If the skeletons I saw at New Grange are any thing to go by they could have rode an  Alsatian! This also means that they could have been 'over horsed ' by the tough native breeds (too strong, tough hill ponies).
I think horses were first domesticated some where around the steppe.
It also interests me that horse milk is drank as a food source by the Asiatic nomads even today. I wonder if the  drinking of cows milk (or goats) was a substitute for horse milk or visa-versa. Of course the wheel is a different matter. That depends on the terrain.
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OConnor
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« Reply #157 on: August 08, 2011, 05:19:22 AM »

I wonder if the travois was in use in Europe, and/or Eurasia before the wheel ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travois

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authun
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« Reply #158 on: August 08, 2011, 07:38:37 AM »

What about the introduction of horses and wheeled vehicles into Europe? Can you help with that question?

Not much I'm afraid. JeanM is more informed on those questions.

The Trundholm Chariot however is a 2 wheeled chariot with spoked wheels drawn by a horse or pony. It is dated to the middle bronze age, circa 1400BC, though the dating is uncertain. One of the reasons for this is that chariots and spoked wheels are much later in europe. Before that they had ox carts and solid wheels. This makes the Trundholm Chariot several centuries too early.

On the other hand, rock carvings dating to the middle and bronze age in Scandinavia are numerous. They depicts spoked wheels, chariots, sun disks and ships. These, for example from Begby in Norway, are dated to 1800 BC

http://www.rockartscandinavia.se/images/billedarkiv_no/begby1.jpg
http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/12850253.jpg

and Kiviksgraven in Sweden:

http://www.rockartscandinavia.se/images/billedarkiv_se/Kivik2.jpg

If you have a look at the video entitled the Bronze Age in Denmark (No. 12) on this page:

http://wn.com/nordic_bronze_age?upload_time=all_time&orderby=published

you'll get an idea of the level of skill that was around at that time. Most of the items are in the National Museum in Copenhagen. The film doesn't give and idea of the size and quantity of items however which is quite staggering.

cheers
authun
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #159 on: August 09, 2011, 02:13:23 PM »

Very interesting, thanks. It sounds as if the introduction of these things into Europe remains an archaeological mystery. I don't see how we can dismiss out of hand the possibility that horses, wheeled vehicles, metallurgy and the IE languages were all introduced during the Bronze age or shortly before by people entering Europe from the east. I find cultural diffusion an unconvincing explanation for their spread to Europe. One can imagine how possession of these things would establish an elite status which could result in a rapid population expansion. I'm not saying this scenario has been proved, merely that it shouldn't be ignored.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 02:15:22 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
authun
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« Reply #160 on: August 09, 2011, 04:46:08 PM »

One can imagine how possession of these things would establish an elite status which could result in a rapid population expansion.

I'd go along with that and suggest that there were many elites, especially in Denmark. You can see the distribution of the bronze age griffzungen swords here:

http://www.braasch-megalith.de/docu0250-Griffzungen-Europa.jpg

If copper was extracted in Sweden and the tin came from the Erzgebirge, Denmark was in a position to control the trade with most of the rest of Scandinavia. The other route may have been from the Erzgebirge via Poland and the island of Gotland.

cheers
authun
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #161 on: August 09, 2011, 06:57:10 PM »

One can imagine how possession of these things would establish an elite status which could result in a rapid population expansion.

I'd go along with that and suggest that there were many elites, especially in Denmark. You can see the distribution of the bronze age griffzungen swords here:

http://www.braasch-megalith.de/docu0250-Griffzungen-Europa.jpg

If copper was extracted in Sweden and the tin came from the Erzgebirge, Denmark was in a position to control the trade with most of the rest of Scandinavia. The other route may have been from the Erzgebirge via Poland and the island of Gotland.

cheers
authun

Very interesting. I wonder why there is such a heavy concentration in northwest Jutland?
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authun
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« Reply #162 on: August 10, 2011, 04:02:21 AM »

Very interesting. I wonder why there is such a heavy concentration in northwest Jutland?

I don't think we know. Control of trade with Norway, defensive geography and the fertility of cultivable land may all be factors.

I did find a page on the National Museum website about horses though. There is no evidence of horses before the 2nd millenium BC and the earliest horses appear to be associated with chariots only, not riding:

http://oldtiden.natmus.dk/udstillingen/bronzealderen/solvognen/hesten_i_bronzealderen/language/uk

cheers
authun
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Jean M
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« Reply #163 on: August 20, 2011, 07:12:00 PM »

What about the introduction of horses and wheeled vehicles into Europe? Can you help with that question?

Not much I'm afraid. JeanM is more informed on those questions.

I have a map of the spread of chariots on Prehistoric transport: rolling along

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GoldenHind
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« Reply #164 on: August 20, 2011, 08:24:22 PM »

What about the introduction of horses and wheeled vehicles into Europe? Can you help with that question?

Not much I'm afraid. JeanM is more informed on those questions.

I have a map of the spread of chariots on Prehistoric transport: rolling along



Thanks very much. I also read the section on horse power. The suggestion of a possible connection between horses, wheeled vehicles and metallurgy was very interesting. I find it difficult to believe that this package was introduced independently of a population movement.
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authun
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« Reply #165 on: August 21, 2011, 06:37:19 AM »

I find it difficult to believe that this package was introduced independently of a population movement.

The earliest rock carvings in Scandinavia are of the type found at Alta. These depict various animals such as reindeer and activities such as fishing and hunting.

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/norway/alta-rock-carvings

We then have rock carvings which include boats, wheels, chariots and horses. Many of the rock carvings appear to show horses on boats, such as this one at Tanum:

http://www.worldheritagesite.org/profiles/fotoos/2868.jpg

One possible interpretation is that the rock carvings were created by the indigenous population and the bronze age carvings tell of new people arriving in ships, people who had horses, wheels, chariots etc. They also brought in a new religion, the symbol of which was the sun disc.

I have been enquiring on Germanic-L about Scandinavian horses and from what I can glean, the male lineage does seem to be the Tarpan wild horse. The Przewalski wild horse appears to have been ruled out as a progenitor.

I think we will have to wait for the metalurgical analysis from the University of Gothenburg but, if it turns out that copper was mined in Sweden, it increases the liklihood of men moving into the area to exploit those resources.

cheers
authun
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« Reply #166 on: November 09, 2011, 04:09:03 PM »

Well, at least we have a clear answer from Jean M on this.

I posted the two quotes in reply #1 of this thread and asked Jean.
Quote from: Mikewww
How do you assess Gordon Whittaker's perspective?

Quote from: JeanM
Seems to belong on the lunatic fringe.
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« Reply #167 on: November 09, 2011, 11:04:38 PM »

Well, Gordon Whittaker is writing peer-reviewed articles on the subject, so I do not dismiss his theories so easily.
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« Reply #168 on: November 10, 2011, 01:19:24 AM »

Well, Gordon Whittaker is writing peer-reviewed articles on the subject, so I do not dismiss his theories so easily.
I've read some of these linguistic theories but don't really understand them so I just can't judge.
All I can say is I understand the general idea of PIE and I was convinced by Anthony that the timeframe and area for PIE was logical. He gives a pretty broad area though and no one has been able to adequately explain the early Anatolian languages relationship to PIE.
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« Reply #169 on: November 10, 2011, 12:44:52 PM »

Well, Gordon Whittaker is writing peer-reviewed articles on the subject, so I do not dismiss his theories so easily.
I've read some of these linguistic theories but don't really understand them so I just can't judge.
All I can say is I understand the general idea of PIE and I was convinced by Anthony that the timeframe and area for PIE was logical. He gives a pretty broad area though and no one has been able to adequately explain the early Anatolian languages relationship to PIE.

Some theories suggest that by the time PIE had reached the Steppes, it was already quite old.  You also have to compromise the clear lack of Yamnaya movement in Western Europe. One can see a trail from the Steppes to Bulgaria, and then it mysteriously disappears.

How is that supposed to spread IE to the furthest corners or Europe, including Ireland?
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« Reply #170 on: November 10, 2011, 05:16:33 PM »

Do you know what the earliest written language is
in Western Europe?
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Heber
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« Reply #171 on: November 10, 2011, 07:25:40 PM »

Cece Moore posted detailed notes on the FTDNA annual conference on her blog:

http://www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com/2011/11/family-tree-dnas-7th-international.html

http://www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com/2011/11/family-tree-dnas-7th-international_09.html

I was very interested in Spencer Wells and Thomas Krahns contributions.
"Age of R1b still appears to be an issue. Although on the positive side ancient DNA is yielding interesting results.
• They are doing things with ancient DNA that 10 years ago was impossible, that they "wouldn't have dreamed of doing".
• A paper is coming next year on ancient DNA research "transecting time", including information on farmers replacing hunter gatherers in Central Germany and mtDNA Haplogroup U5, which Spencer called "the hunter-gatherer haplogroup". They found different frequencies of haplogroups from samples at different layers. He says that the debate about the age of R1b has not yet been resolved. Spencer commented that outstanding issues about STR mutation rates is "not helping" and that we still "have to figure out Y-STR mutation rates."

Interesting coorelation between Indo European languages and tested participants.
"2000 Caucasus language speakers were sampled, finding a "remarkable concordance between genetic contrasts and language groups."
Many new SNPs discovered from walk the Y and 1000 genomes project.
"• 366 participants, 125.8 million basepairs sequenced, 180,000 bp average coverage per participant, 450 undocumented new Y-SNPs have been found.

Peter Biggins and the DNA of the Three Collas:
Peter gave a thorough review of the FTDNA Clan CollaNull 425 Project. This clan is thought to have descended from the 3 Colla brothers who lived ca 400 AD in Ireland. There are quite a few different Irish surnames in this group. All members of this project are R-L21+ and every member who has tested has also been discovered to be R-DF21+.

So it looks like we can look forward to several interesting papers in the near future.


« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 07:37:43 PM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



GoldenHind
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« Reply #172 on: November 10, 2011, 08:19:37 PM »

Cece Moore posted detailed notes on the FTDNA annual conference on her blog:

http://www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com/2011/11/family-tree-dnas-7th-international.html

http://www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com/2011/11/family-tree-dnas-7th-international_09.html

I was very interested in Spencer Wells and Thomas Krahns contributions.
"Age of R1b still appears to be an issue. Although on the positive side ancient DNA is yielding interesting results.
• They are doing things with ancient DNA that 10 years ago was impossible, that they "wouldn't have dreamed of doing".
• A paper is coming next year on ancient DNA research "transecting time", including information on farmers replacing hunter gatherers in Central Germany and mtDNA Haplogroup U5, which Spencer called "the hunter-gatherer haplogroup". They found different frequencies of haplogroups from samples at different layers. He says that the debate about the age of R1b has not yet been resolved. Spencer commented that outstanding issues about STR mutation rates is "not helping" and that we still "have to figure out Y-STR mutation rates."

Interesting coorelation between Indo European languages and tested participants.
"2000 Caucasus language speakers were sampled, finding a "remarkable concordance between genetic contrasts and language groups."
Many new SNPs discovered from walk the Y and 1000 genomes project.
"• 366 participants, 125.8 million basepairs sequenced, 180,000 bp average coverage per participant, 450 undocumented new Y-SNPs have been found.

Peter Biggins and the DNA of the Three Collas:
Peter gave a thorough review of the FTDNA Clan CollaNull 425 Project. This clan is thought to have descended from the 3 Colla brothers who lived ca 400 AD in Ireland. There are quite a few different Irish surnames in this group. All members of this project are R-L21+ and every member who has tested has also been discovered to be R-DF21+.

So it looks like we can look forward to several interesting papers in the near future.




Jean M. reported on another forum that Spencer Wells stills believes in a paleolithic origin  in Europe for R1b.
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Humanist
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« Reply #173 on: November 10, 2011, 09:15:25 PM »

"2000 Caucasus language speakers were sampled, finding a "remarkable concordance between genetic contrasts and language groups."

So it looks like we can look forward to several interesting papers in the near future

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/05/13/molbev.msr126.abstract

Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus Region

Oleg Balanovsky1,2,*,Khadizhat Dibirova1,*,Anna Dybo3,Oleg Mudrak4,Svetlana Frolova1,Elvira Pocheshkhova5,Marc Haber6,Daniel Platt7,Theodore Schurr8,Wolfgang Haak9,Marina Kuznetsova1,Magomed Radzhabov1,Olga Balaganskaya1,2,Alexey Romanov1,Tatiana Zakharova1,David F. Soria Hernanz10,11,Pierre Zalloua6,Sergey Koshel12,Merritt Ruhlen13,Colin Renfrew14,R. Spencer Wells10,Chris Tyler-Smith15,Elena Balanovska1 and The Genographic Consortium16

Abstract
Quote
We analyzed 40 SNP and 19 STR Y-chromosomal markers in a large sample of 1,525 indigenous individuals from 14 populations in the Caucasus and 254 additional individuals representing potential source populations. We also employed a lexicostatistical approach to reconstruct the history of the languages of the North Caucasian family spoken by the Caucasus populations. We found a different major haplogroup to be prevalent in each of four sets of populations that occupy distinct geographic regions and belong to different linguistic branches. The haplogroup frequencies correlated with geography and, even more strongly, with language. Within haplogroups, a number of haplotype clusters were shown to be specific to individual populations and languages. The data suggested a direct origin of Caucasus male lineages from the Near East, followed by high levels of isolation, differentiation and genetic drift in situ. Comparison of genetic and linguistic reconstructions covering the last few millennia showed striking correspondences between the topology and dates of the respective gene and language trees, and with documented historical events. Overall, in the Caucasus region, unmatched levels of gene-language co-evolution occurred within geographically isolated populations, probably due to its mountainous terrain.

Just like his bit on the Phoenicians (see Zalloua et al.), the Caucasian material is old news.  Unless they are coming out with their own, separate paper on the same material.   If they are, I certainly will not mind. 

« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 09:19:34 PM by Humanist » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #174 on: November 10, 2011, 09:54:21 PM »


 A paper is coming next year on ancient DNA research "transecting time", including information on farmers replacing hunter gatherers in Central Germany and mtDNA Haplogroup U5, which Spencer called "the hunter-gatherer haplogroup". . .

I guess my maternal great-grandma Nora Lancaster was the descendant of some tall, good-looking hunter-gatherer females. She passed their mtDNA on down through my grandmother and my mother to me, since I am U5a2.

Cowabunga! ;-)
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