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Author Topic: Neolithic Farmers and the Spread of Indo-European, The Case for Euphratic, etc.  (Read 13835 times)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2011, 07:00:17 PM »

... I just feel Anthony puts far too much weight on recontructing fundementals based on the presence or absence of words in IE dialects
He may, that's why I'm interesting any counter-arguments to his "fencing in" of the PIE homeland. It's quite a big area, but it does not include the Near East and Anatolia.
To his credit, his logic on how he created the boundary limits for a PIE "most recent common ancestor" language is clear. He tracks words in IE languages that are derived from a single base that would only be logical in a given set of territory limits and timeframes. To me, it is as convincing as the reconstructed PIE concept itself.  You look at enough examples and you can see Sir William Jones only discovered the obvious. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Jones_(philologist)
Yes, I'm convinced by the whole PIE concept and Anthony limits for a PIE home-land, but I would certainly change my mind if I heard a good argument against either that directly counter-acts the "pro" argument logic.

I guess the best counter-argument is Renfrew's warning not to place too much value on the spread of words as it could be network oriented. If that is the case, even though the people (including possibly R1b) spread from the Near East in the Neolithic, they had a stronger trade/exchange network with the Steppes since the IE languages all picked up a set of derived words from the PIE homeland they didn't get from the Near East.

Is the converse of Anthony's PIE home-land true?  Are there derived words in separate Western Centum IE languages that could have only come from a Near Eastern Euphratic or an Anatolian language?

Quote from: alan trowel hands
.... I do think the way Anthony uses a very few specific items from linguistics and archaeology to support his thesis looks a bit of a house of cards.  There is a lot of wriggle room left I suspect.  How the various states of PIE, Anatolian and Euphratic work when the wriggle room is fully acknowledged (rather than Anthony's attempt to claim a knockout blow) I dont know.
I don't see how his positioning of Anatolian is unclear. It was a pre-PIE derivative. It does not contain the some of the same derived words found in PIE descendants to the west and north (and back to India for that matter). It makes sense it was an early "break-away" before those words developed (were needed to describe new things.)

I think his work on horse bones, riding accessories, etc. is very credible as I think is his argument for a PIE homeland.

I agree with you that Anthony's whole bit about the proposed routes and timing of the Italo-Celtic, Germanic, Balto-Slavic branches is highly speculative and could be said to be built on a "house of cards."  He seems open in describing those routes and timeframes as "could have been" or "possibly was", etc.  Who knows? As RMS2 says, I think, Anthony's trail/link to Western Europe is hard to follow and seems to grow cold. Jean M has answers for this but they are not well recognized at this time. http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/indoeuropeangenetics.shtml

I have same linkage problem of tying R-M269 to the Neolithic.  It's true, that R-M269 is at the start of the trail and at the end of the trail, but the Neolithic routes don't line up with the phylogeny. Also the timing doesn't line up either, although we can always argue R-M269 subclade TMRCA's are built on a house of cards... and they could be. ... but then you also have the mysterious ancient DNA evidence that hasn't showed yet. It may.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not sure of anything. I just take this position because I'm going with "the genes don't lie" concept first and then seeing if the "outweigh" arguments like "high frequency fringe Atlantic R1b must indicate Paleothic" or "high frequency Europe R1b must indicate riding with Neolithic population explosion" have more logic than just their heavy weight.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 07:26:31 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2011, 07:18:10 PM »

You also have to wonder if R1b was not swept up along with these G folk in the early farming wave that passed through SW Asian, Asia minor etc, then where on earth was R1b holed up in that period? Phylogeny strongly points to SW Asia after all but yet it was not swept along with the Neolithic SW Asian G folk???  
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2011, 07:36:19 PM »

Lack of evidence is not evidence of absence, but the odds of R-M269 being the "lead" carrier in the great LBK (Linear Pottery) and Impressed Wares (Cardial Pottery) expansions are being diminished.
This is going to spur a lot of discussion (and speculation) for the next several months.  Whether a neolithic or copper age entry into Europe, it's very interesting that no R1b would show up in 3000 BC southern France where it is a majority today.

Let's wait. The mtDNA was practically the same of to-day, then no introgression after then,  and Oetzi is knocking at the door.
What do you think Oetzi will tell us?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otzi_the_Iceman

He's a citizen of the Copper Age, born about 3300 BC, found up in the mountains. Doesn't sound like a classic farmer.
Quote
This degree of mobility is not characteristic of other Copper Age Europeans. Ruff proposes that this may indicate that Ötzi was a high-altitude shepherd
He'd been eating deer meat, but also possibly bread.

If he comes out as R1b what does that mean? He might have just been an early pioneer for an incoming IE people.  It certainly doesn't prove he was in the Alps during the Neolithic advances or the Mesolithic.  It doesn't disprove that either.  So what will Otzi tell us?  Are you thinking he'll be some kind of R-M269+ L23- guy?  Even if he is, that doesn't mean the R-L23 L11+ guys that swept across Europe descended from him. They could still have come from further east.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 07:38:50 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2011, 07:40:53 PM »

... I just feel Anthony puts far too much weight on recontructing fundementals based on the presence or absence of words in IE dialects
He may, that's why I'm interesting any counter-arguments to his "fencing in" of the PIE homeland. It's quite a big area, but it does not include the Near East and Anatolia.
To his credit, his logic on how he created the boundary limits for a PIE "most recent common ancestor" language is clear. He tracks words in IE languages that are derived from a single base that would only be logical in a given set of territory limits and timeframes. To me, it is as convincing as the reconstructed PIE concept itself.  You look at enough examples and you can see Sir William Jones only discovered the obvious. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Jones_(philologist)
Yes, I'm convinced by the whole PIE concept and Anthony limits for a PIE home-land, but I would certainly change my mind if I heard a good argument against either that directly counter-acts the "pro" argument logic.

I guess the best counter-argument is Renfrew's warning not to place too much value on the spread of words as it could be network oriented.
Quote from: alan trowel hands
.... I do think the way Anthony uses a very few specific items from linguistics and archaeology to support his thesis looks a bit of a house of cards.  There is a lot of wriggle room left I suspect.  How the various states of PIE, Anatolian and Euphratic work when the wriggle room is fully acknowledged (rather than Anthony's attempt to claim a knockout blow) I dont know.
I don't see how his positioning of Anatolian is unclear. It was a pre-PIE derivative. It does not contain the some of the same derived words found in PIE descendants to the west and north (and back to India for that matter). It makes sense it was an early "break-away" before those words developed (were needed to describe new things.)

I think his work on horse bones, riding accessories, etc. is very credible as I think is his argument for a PIE homeland.

I agree with you that Anthony's whole bit about the proposed routes and timing of the Italo-Celtic, Germanic, Balto-Slavic branches is highly speculative and could be said to be built on a "house of cards."  He seems open in describing those routes and timeframes as "could have been" or "possibly was", etc.  Who knows? As RMS2 says, I think, Anthony's trail/link to Western Europe is hard to follow and seems to grow cold. Jean M has answers for this but they are not well recognized at this time. http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/indoeuropeangenetics.shtml

I have same linkage problem of tying R-M269 to the Neolithic.  It's true, that R-M269 is at the start of the trail and at the end of the trail, but the Neolithic routes don't line up with the phylogeny. Also the timing doesn't line up either, although we can always argue R-M269 subclade TMRCA's are built on a house of cards... and they could be. ... but then you also have the mysterious ancient DNA evidence that hasn't showed yet. It may.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not sure of anything. I just take this position because I'm going with "the genes don't lie" first concept and then seeing if the "outweigh" arguments like "high frequency fringe Atlantic R1b must indicate Paleothic" or "high frequency Europe R1b must indicate riding with Neolithic population explosion" have more logic than just their heavy weight.

He may be right.  However, I dont think that the way the absence of certain words being portrayed as open-shut evidence as it being an early break away is likely as water tight as is being suggested.  There could be a number of scenarios to explain that other than early fission.  I dont have the expertise or the time to brush up sufficiently on the subject to be really helpful on this matter but I will be very surprised if his arguement is not subject to attempts to rebut it  in the near future.   I just remember too many warnings in previous studies about using this kind of comparative vocab approach as the kingpin of  a model. PIE just seems to have been retained or lost in IE languages in the oddest and often inexplicable way.  Presence or absence of a few words just should never be more than supporting evidence.  Maybe it is a fashion going full circle but I was pretty amazed when I read Anthony's book to see the technique being applied as the crux of his arguement.  It6 went against the feeling of limitations of this approach that had been expressed in previous publications on this subject.  
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2011, 08:15:43 PM »

....  I just remember too many warnings in previous studies about using this kind of comparative vocab approach as the kingpin of  a model. PIE just seems to have been retained or lost in IE languages in the oddest and often inexplicable way.  Presence or absence of a few words just should never be more than supporting evidence.  Maybe it is a fashion going full circle but I was pretty amazed when I read Anthony's book to see the technique being applied as the crux of his arguement.  It6 went against the feeling of limitations of this approach that had been expressed in previous publications on this subject.  
Okay. Thanks for responding.  Yes, I'd like to see a direct rebuttal to Anthony or just a plain better head to head argument on the "PIE home-land".
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« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2011, 08:48:54 PM »

The use of bronze represented a revolution, but not to the extent farming and animal husbandry did. I think that is indisputable.

Maybe I am forgetting something, but I do not recall that steppe people are credited with spreading bronze metallurgy to the rest of Europe. It, too, came from the Near East.

I agree with Alan about Anthony putting too much faith in his linguistic timetable for Indo-European.

It seems to me the steppe people could have acquired their IE from farmers and introduced words for horse riding terminology.

But I don't know what is right either.

I suppose it could turn out that we have things all bass-ackwards, and R1b really did spend the last Ice Age in Iberia. Who knows?
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« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2011, 08:58:53 PM »

More Ancient DNA Y chromsome results from the Neolithic.

R1b turns up AWOL again, but this time it's missing from Cardial Wares territory.

"Ancient DNA reveals male diffusion through the Neolithic Mediterranean route" by Lucan et al.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/y-chromosome-mtdna-and-autosomal-dna.html

Quote from: Dienekes
G2a was also one of the haplogroups represented in a small sample from Neolithic Central Europe. I think we can now safely say that G2a may have been the main Neolithic link that ties the farmers that went north across the Balkans to Central Europe, and those that followed the western, maritime route to the Western Mediterranean. The unambiguous West Asian origin of this lineage should put to rest any ideas about Neolithic farmers in the Western Mediterranean being descended from indigenous Mesolithic foragers.

I-P37.2 is also quite interesting, as it is tied to the Balkans, but also modern Southwestern Europe (it is especially frequent in Sardinia in its derived M26+ form). ISOGG tells me that:

    I2-M438 et al includes I2* which shows some membership from Armenia, Georgia and Turkey; I2a-P37.2, which is the most common form in the Balkans and Sardinia. I2a1-M26 is especially prevalent in Sardinia. I2b-M436 et al reaches its highest frequency along the northwest coast of continental Europe. I2b1-M223 et al occurs in Britain and northwest continental Europe. I2b1a-M284 occurs almost exclusively in Britain, so it apparently originated there and has probably been present for thousands of years.

If these aren't signals of a maritime pioneer colonization that followed the maritime route along the Mediterranean and Atlantic, I don't know what is.

What is absent is also quite interesting as what is present. The absence of E1b1b is consistent with my theory about the Bronze Age Greek expansion of that haplogroup in Europe that has been tied to the historical Greeks of the West Mediterranean.

R-M269 which, because of its apparent young Y-STR age has been tied by some to either the Mediterranean or Central European Neolithic is conspicuous absently from both at the moment. It may yet surface in a Neolithic context, but its absence this late from a region where, today, it is abundant only adds to its mystery. The absence of J2 is equally mysterious, as this is another putative Neolithic lineage which has failed to appear so far in a Neolithic context, while its J1 sister clade did make an appearance in much later aboriginals from the Canary Islands.

Here is where R1b was AWOL the first time, an LBK site:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/near-eastern-origin-of-european.html

Lack of evidence is not evidence of absence, but the odds of R-M269 being the "lead" carrier in the great LBK (Linear Pottery) and Impressed Wares (Cardial Pottery) expansions are diminishing.

Interesting. The lack of R1b in Neolithic France is definitely mysterious, but it's not like they are getting big samples.

Hmmm . . .
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« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2011, 09:34:46 PM »

I think this is speculative, but if Dienekes is right, E1b1b1 is a late "Greek" newcomer. J2, along with T, is what Spencer Wells (National Genographic) calls "Mediterranean Trader" (aka Phoenician.)

That is interesting.  The Druze, if I am not mistaken, based on the frequencies reported in the "Genetic Refugium" study, are roughly a quarter R-M269?  See Vince V's post here: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-05/1210268886

As you know, Mike, based on our recent discussions over at DNA-Forums, R-M269 is also approximately a quarter of the Assyrian Y-DNA frequency.  I do not know the complete details of the Druze origins, but I do know they have been a closed community for the last 1000 years.  Given the geographic separation of the two populations, not to mention the even more ancient linguistic, religious, etc. divisions, the similar R-M269 frequencies in both may suggest a greater presence in the ancient Near East of R-M269.  At least, I should say, as it pertains to the Levant and Mesopotamia.  

The similar frequencies of Haplogroup T reported in Mendez et al (specifically PS21) for both the Druze and Assyrians, in my opinion, should also be noted: Mendez et al.
frequencies: http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Mendez_Haplo_T.jpg
Mendez et al. PC plot of the "kinship R matrix" (note the position of the Assyrians and Druze): http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/pca_ydna_4611.jpg

On that same note, I am not sure if any of you folks caught the recent posts by Dienekes on his "Zombie" ADMIXTURE analyses methods, but something of interest may have been revealed, in the reporting of the Druze ADMIXTURE proportions (populations with at least 20% "Southwest Asian"):

Code:
POP W_Asia Nw_Afri S_Euro Ne_Asi Sw_Asi E_Asia N_Euro W_Afri E_Afri S_Asia
KSA 12.2 0.8 3.9 0.1 76.7 0.1 0.2 1.4 2.6 2
EGY 19.1 7.7 15.3 0.1 38.9 0.1 0 4.1 14.7 0
JOR 31.3 3.8 19.2 0.3 33.9 0.2 0.3 2.4 7.3 1.3
SYR 37.2 1.4 19 0.4 33.1 0.5 1.1 1.6 2.7 3
PAL 29.6 3.6 28.1 0.1 28.8 0.2 0.5 1.7 6.9 0.5
EAF 1.6 3.2 1.9 0 26.5 0 0 0 66.9 0
DRZ 37.4 1.1 34.4 0 24.8 0.1 0.6 0 1.2 0.3
ASY 51 0 23 0 24 0 0 0 0 1.8
MAN 50.4 0 21.4 0.3 24 0 0 0 0 3.9
CYP 39.1 0.3 35.5 0 23.7 0.1 1.2 0 0.1 0
ASJ 27 2 35 0.6 21 0.8 15 0 0.1 0.1

Man=the lone S Iraqi Mandaean (DOD460)

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/05/more-zombies-ancestral-north-indians.html




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« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2011, 10:03:00 PM »

Would the supposed lack of R-M269 in the Neolithic mean it came later?
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« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2011, 11:54:16 PM »

Would the supposed lack of R-M269 in the Neolithic mean it came later?
It could, but the main precept of the two ancient DNA sites is that one is LBK Neolithic and one is Impressed Wares Neolithic.

There could have been hunter-gatherer's living in different communities up the mountain side or somewhere and R1b could have been there.

It could be R-M269 was there in some Neolithic communities, but was a minority or for some reason just not found yet.

It could be, as you ask, R-M269 just plain came later. 

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« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2011, 03:48:18 AM »

@ Mikew3
"So what will Otzi tell us?  Are you thinking he'll be some kind of R-M269+ L23- guy? "

Of course this is what I hope, but I'd be glad also if he was an haplotype thought more recent from the know-all of the mutation rate.
I would remember that also hg. G2a. present massively in Spain, as I have said many times in the past, has 2 center of irradiation in Italy (one in Sardinia if I remember well) and those Spaniards could have come from Italy with the Cardial Pottery men. The presence of I-M26 (pretty 40% in Sardinia) could be a sign.
As I have said many times, aDNA will resolve all the questions.

Certainly two mtDNA K1a (mine) and that of Oetzi (K1o) is a good sign.
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« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2011, 04:20:48 AM »

This is the full Lacan paper: http://secher.bernard.free.fr/DNA/PNAS-2011-Lacan-1100723108.pdf
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« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2011, 10:23:22 AM »

Many thanks!
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« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2011, 10:28:20 AM »


I suppose it could turn out that we have things all bass-ackwards, and R1b really did spend the last Ice Age in Iberia. Who knows?
I can´t resist to say, once again, that the last Ice Age refugium in Europe was the FrancoCantabrian, not Iberia. Cantabria takes just a small fringe of Northern Iberia, while by far the main Paleolithic center of population in the Magdalenian period is Central France, the regions of Dordogne and Périgord in particular. All that talking about an Iberian refugium has no archaeological support, in fact we know that Central Iberia was a population desert at the time.
IMO if R1b is really Paleolithic in Europe we should check Central France genetics, not Iberia.
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« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2011, 10:51:11 AM »

I suppose it could turn out that we have things all bass-ackwards, and R1b really did spend the last Ice Age in Iberia. Who knows?
.....
IMO if R1b is really Paleolithic in Europe we should check Central France genetics, not Iberia.
I think Myres ignored much of France but they did look at the SE France location of Vacluse.  Too bad, we really don't have a good study of France.  I'm putting together an "all" P312 spreadsheet so we can re-look at variance and keep tabs on Z196 testing.

On another front, I have good news.  Even though I argue vehemently in some cases, I really don't see any alternatives that really line up beautifully for R-M269's expansion across Europe. I just really don't know ....... but smarter foks than I have figured this out.  After looking at both Haak's LBK (Germany) and Lucan's Cardial Wares (La Trielle) ancient DNA reports, and tying that back to wave surfing models (Klopfstein); Rokus, our Dutch voice, has resolved matters.
Quote from: Rokus
Paleogenetic evidence so far reveals Neolithic G that indeed fits the Neolithic profile according to the predictions of Klopfstein....

OK, so this problem I considered solved now with the finds of La Treille, that again failed to produce R1b, only much more Hg G!

None of this R1b "wave of advance" pattern is related to actual movements of people, it must have formed on top of a Neolithic substratum that was already in place. The advance of R1b was exclusive linked to selective processes on genes that were especially favourable among males (-biased) and those sharing a Late Neolithic culture: when cattle became part of the Neolithic package and the consumption of dairy products from animal husbandry became important. This required fast genetic change, that still left its marks in current YDNA distributions.

MHammers, didn't your TMRCA inter-clade estimates kind of back up what Rokus is saying about Hg G?
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« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2011, 12:24:35 PM »

Here is another interesting thought:

Did the Bell Beaker folks skip over the Basques?  What does the archaeology found in old Aquitanian (Basque ancestral) regions tell us?

If so, keep that in mind when you look at the French vs French Basque charts in the following article.

"European man of many faces: Cain vs. Abel" by Razib Khan in Gene Expressions at
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/11/european-man-of-many-faces-cain-vs-abel/

Kahn makes a couple of interesting points that I can personally relate to in my experiences with farmers, ranchers and hunter-gatherer descendants (Native Americans.) I can trace my own genealogies to people with direct interaction in Mesolithic to Neolithic expansion and as I said I know of the stories and see the descendants of these interactions.
Quote from: Kahn
The original farmers seem to have expanded rather slowly initially out of the Middle East. Not only did they perfect the biological character of their crops, they probably perfected the customs and traditions which would go along with farming. A complex suite of explicit rules and implicit norms. Perhaps it was not so easy to simply copy the farming lifestyle? Or, perhaps more interestingly, the hunter-gatherers by and large did not want to copy the farming lifestyle?

Even though I agree that farming is a very transformational type change, a revolution if you want to call it, I don't think it relates to rapid change. It is plodding, with fits and starts in bouts with the new environment.

On the other hand, R-L11's expansion in Europe seems quite rapid. This all could add up to slow start out of the Near East, a burst during the LBK and Cadial, then a pause and retooling before secondary bursts.  This is possible but it still seems like R-L11 burst all in all directions all at once.  Just a thought.

Anyway, I don't know what to make of the French vs French Basque autosomal picture.  Go to the link above. and look at that chart.

Orange=Southwest Asian
Green=South European
Blue=West Asian
Quote from: Kahn
The green element is nearly 100% in Sardinia, and drops off to nearly nothing somewhere around Iran. The light blue component is modal around the Caucasus, though is widely distributed, from Spain to Bengal (yeah, that’s me!) to Sweden. A simple model would be that the light blue arrived with Neolithic agriculturalists, as the Basques are the descendants of the original Ice Age Europeans. But this may not be correct, and our impression of the Basques may be totally false. It is not out of the question now that the Basque culture may have arrived via the ancient leap-frogging of agriculture from fertile regions around the Mediterranean before the seafarers passed into the Atlantic and swept around the western fringe of Iberia. What we may be seeing is a palimpsest of agriculturalists, where the Basques simply lack the last layer.

The Basques didn't get the "West Asian" (which is modal with the Caucasus) but the French did.

Younger P312 clades have definitely penetrated the Basques, but does this mean P312 was all across Europe then and then as Klyosov would say, someone (i.e. R1a1) brought IE to them and converted them?  Or does this mean only a few P312 men penetrated a Neolithic culture (the Basques) and their "West Asian" genes were just washed out because of their few numbers although their Y DNA did not.  Doesn't quite seem right, but it doesn't seem right that there were two kinds of P312 interacting unless there is a major division in that Z196 was early and non-IE whereas U152 and L21 did pick up the IE somehow.
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« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2011, 02:46:07 PM »

Quote from: Rokus
Paleogenetic evidence so far reveals Neolithic G that indeed fits the Neolithic profile according to the predictions of Klopfstein....

OK, so this problem I considered solved now with the finds of La Treille, that again failed to produce R1b, only much more Hg G!

None of this R1b "wave of advance" pattern is related to actual movements of people, it must have formed on top of a Neolithic substratum that was already in place. The advance of R1b was exclusive linked to selective processes on genes that were especially favourable among males (-biased) and those sharing a Late Neolithic culture: when cattle became part of the Neolithic package and the consumption of dairy products from animal husbandry became important. This required fast genetic change, that still left its marks in current YDNA distributions.
MHammers, didn't your TMRCA inter-clade estimates kind of back up what Rokus is saying about Hg G?
Here are some age estimates I ran back in February for G2a.  Please note many of these are probably not fully deep clade tested.  Still the ages  are more mesolithic to neolithic in time range, unlike the younger rapid succession of R1b.  I tend to agree with what Rokus is saying here.

Since we now know G2a3 was present in the LBK of Germany during the neolithic, I decided to run some calculations on G2a3 types using Ken's Generations5 calculator.
The data comes from the FTDna Haplogroup G project.

The following are intraclade ages using mostly G2a3a, G2a3a1, G2a3b, and G2a3b1 as a proxy for a neolithic pattern.  Some of the haplotypes were not as fully tested as I would have liked, so that should be taken into account when considering the ages.

G2a3b and G2a3b1(nothing further downstream) - all locations - G=324/17 or 9720+/-510 ybp - n=154

G2a3b and G2a3b1(nothing further downstream) - Europe only - G=313/16 or 9390+/-480 ybp - n=145

G2a3b1+(all downstream) -all locations - G=366/22 or 10980+/-660 ybp - n=220

G2a3b1+(all downstream) -Europe only - G=356/21 or 10680+/-630 ybp - n=207

G2a3a+ - all locations - G=372/20 or 11160+/-600 ybp - n=36

G2a3a+ - Europe only - G=260/18 or 7800+/-540 ybp - n=24

G2a3b1a1a (for comparison) - G=109/12 or 3270+/-360 ybp - n=34

Here's an interclade for G2a3 using G2a3a, G2a3a1, G2a3b and G2a3b1 (nothing further downtstream) - G=529/135 or 15870+/-4050 ybp

As you can see these ages are much older than what we're getting for R1b.  G2a3 seems to originate in SW Asia sometime during the upper paleolithic and was probably important to the transition to agriculture there.   The Europe only sample for G2a3b and G2a3b1 are in line with a neolithic entry for SE Europe around 7000 BC and the Europe only for G2a3a is very close to LBK in Central Europe.  The LBK aDNA was at least G2a3, but I'm not sure exactly what, if any, downstream snp's were tested.
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« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2011, 02:51:06 PM »

I think what is the most interesting here is the lack of lactose persistence in these people.  Since there has been no lactose peristence found in LBK and now this late neolithic Treilles group, does this suggest that the gene was also not with the first farmers of the British Isles around 4000 BC?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 02:51:32 PM by MHammers » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2011, 06:09:48 PM »

Quote from: Rokus
Paleogenetic evidence so far reveals Neolithic G that indeed fits the Neolithic profile according to the predictions of Klopfstein....

OK, so this problem I considered solved now with the finds of La Treille, that again failed to produce R1b, only much more Hg G!

None of this R1b "wave of advance" pattern is related to actual movements of people, it must have formed on top of a Neolithic substratum that was already in place. The advance of R1b was exclusive linked to selective processes on genes that were especially favourable among males (-biased) and those sharing a Late Neolithic culture: when cattle became part of the Neolithic package and the consumption of dairy products from animal husbandry became important. This required fast genetic change, that still left its marks in current YDNA distributions.
MHammers, didn't your TMRCA inter-clade estimates kind of back up what Rokus is saying about Hg G?
Here are some age estimates I ran back in February for G2a.  Please note many of these are probably not fully deep clade tested.  Still the ages  are more mesolithic to neolithic in time range, unlike the younger rapid succession of R1b.  I tend to agree with what Rokus is saying here.

Since we now know G2a3 was present in the LBK of Germany during the neolithic, I decided to run some calculations on G2a3 types using Ken's Generations5 calculator.
The data comes from the FTDna Haplogroup G project.

The following are intraclade ages using mostly G2a3a, G2a3a1, G2a3b, and G2a3b1 as a proxy for a neolithic pattern.  Some of the haplotypes were not as fully tested as I would have liked, so that should be taken into account when considering the ages.

G2a3b and G2a3b1(nothing further downstream) - all locations - G=324/17 or 9720+/-510 ybp - n=154

G2a3b and G2a3b1(nothing further downstream) - Europe only - G=313/16 or 9390+/-480 ybp - n=145

G2a3b1+(all downstream) -all locations - G=366/22 or 10980+/-660 ybp - n=220

G2a3b1+(all downstream) -Europe only - G=356/21 or 10680+/-630 ybp - n=207

G2a3a+ - all locations - G=372/20 or 11160+/-600 ybp - n=36

G2a3a+ - Europe only - G=260/18 or 7800+/-540 ybp - n=24

G2a3b1a1a (for comparison) - G=109/12 or 3270+/-360 ybp - n=34

Here's an interclade for G2a3 using G2a3a, G2a3a1, G2a3b and G2a3b1 (nothing further downtstream) - G=529/135 or 15870+/-4050 ybp

As you can see these ages are much older than what we're getting for R1b.  G2a3 seems to originate in SW Asia sometime during the upper paleolithic and was probably important to the transition to agriculture there.   The Europe only sample for G2a3b and G2a3b1 are in line with a neolithic entry for SE Europe around 7000 BC and the Europe only for G2a3a is very close to LBK in Central Europe.  The LBK aDNA was at least G2a3, but I'm not sure exactly what, if any, downstream snp's were tested.


I have to say those dates plus the presence in early Neolithic remains is building a strong case that the dating is approximately correct.  If it is then L11 just cant be early Neolithic. 

The only other possibility (and Capelis forthcoming paper will be interesting) is that the variance dating is significantly too young.  However, if L11 is really early Neolithic  then these G2 clades would surely have to then be very old ones relating to some sort of upper Palaeolithic spread into Europe from some sort of eastern refugia.

Even if Capeli doesnt change the picture, the case for R1b being missing from the main two European early Neolithic cultures will only be proved when we have much more than one sample from each and the sample if from enough different sites to eliminate the possibility of chance distorting things.  I would still contend that the middle Neolithic period (perhaps c. 5000-4000BC) might provide a good horizon for the spread of R1b.   There does seem to me to be a correlation between the areas of very elevated R1b and places where farmers first settled the land in the middles Neolithic after LBK. 
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« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2011, 08:10:18 PM »


I suppose it could turn out that we have things all bass-ackwards, and R1b really did spend the last Ice Age in Iberia. Who knows?
I can´t resist to say, once again, that the last Ice Age refugium in Europe was the FrancoCantabrian, not Iberia. Cantabria takes just a small fringe of Northern Iberia, while by far the main Paleolithic center of population in the Magdalenian period is Central France, the regions of Dordogne and Périgord in particular. All that talking about an Iberian refugium has no archaeological support, in fact we know that Central Iberia was a population desert at the time.
IMO if R1b is really Paleolithic in Europe we should check Central France genetics, not Iberia.


I realize that, actually. "Iberia" is just quicker to type.

By the way, I don't really think R1b was in the Franco-Cantabrian region during the last Ice Age.
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« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2011, 08:16:50 PM »

So, if R1b does not show up in the known major Neolithic cultures of Europe, it must mean either that 1) R1b was present, but in Mesolithic-level, hunter-gatherer groups or 2) R1b arrived later, perhaps as Bronze Age Indo-European pastoralists.

If the answer is #1, then R1b should show up in later farming communities at some point.

If it is #2, how will we know it? Thus far, no R1b has been found in steppe sites believed to be Indo-European.

Of course, I guess there is a possibility #3, i.e., that R1b arrived with a later wave of agriculturalists from the Near East or someplace.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 08:24:08 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2011, 08:29:14 PM »

So, if R1b does not show up in the known major Neolithic cultures of Europe, it must mean either that 1) R1b was present, but in Mesolithic-level, hunter-gatherer groups or 2) R1b arrived later, perhaps as Bronze Age Indo-European pastoralists.

If the answer is #1, then R1b should show up in later farming communities at some point.

If it is #2, how will we know it? Thus far, no R1b has been found in steppe sites believed to be Indo-European.

Of course, I guess there is a possibility #3, i.e., that R1b arrived with a later wave of agriculturalists from the Near East or someplace.



Have there been steppe sites associated with Yamnaya that have been tested? I thought both R1a and R1b have been found in graves dating from the Bronze Age so far. Maybe I am wrong.

I am going with #2, but did IE spread from the Near East? Euphratic?
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


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« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2011, 08:29:38 PM »

Here's a kind of sidebar note.

When I first got involved in genetic genealogy, it was claimed that the G2a in Europe was the product of the Alans and Sarmatians having ridden roughshod across the plains in the wake of the general Roman decline.

Doesn't look that way now.
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« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2011, 08:33:30 PM »

So, if R1b does not show up in the known major Neolithic cultures of Europe, it must mean either that 1) R1b was present, but in Mesolithic-level, hunter-gatherer groups or 2) R1b arrived later, perhaps as Bronze Age Indo-European pastoralists.

If the answer is #1, then R1b should show up in later farming communities at some point.

If it is #2, how will we know it? Thus far, no R1b has been found in steppe sites believed to be Indo-European.

Of course, I guess there is a possibility #3, i.e., that R1b arrived with a later wave of agriculturalists from the Near East or someplace.



Have there been steppe sites associated with Yamnaya that have been tested? I thought both R1a and R1b have been found in graves dating from the Bronze Age so far. Maybe I am wrong.

I am going with #2, but did IE spread from the Near East? Euphratic?

I don't recall if any Yamnaya sites have yielded ancient y-dna, but there have been a couple of steppe sites that have, as well as that Corded Ware site in Germany. It's all been a thrill for the R1a guys thus far and nuts to us.

I could look up the details and post them, but I've got to get off the computer in a couple of minutes. I think Jean Manco's Ancient Eurasian DNA site has the details.

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2011, 08:43:26 PM »

So, if R1b does not show up in the known major Neolithic cultures of Europe, it must mean either that 1) R1b was present, but in Mesolithic-level, hunter-gatherer groups or 2) R1b arrived later, perhaps as Bronze Age Indo-European pastoralists.

If the answer is #1, then R1b should show up in later farming communities at some point.

If it is #2, how will we know it? Thus far, no R1b has been found in steppe sites believed to be Indo-European.

Of course, I guess there is a possibility #3, i.e., that R1b arrived with a later wave of agriculturalists from the Near East or someplace.



Have there been steppe sites associated with Yamnaya that have been tested? I thought both R1a and R1b have been found in graves dating from the Bronze Age so far. Maybe I am wrong.

I am going with #2, but did IE spread from the Near East? Euphratic?

I don't recall if any Yamnaya sites have yielded ancient y-dna, but there have been a couple of steppe sites that have, as well as that Corded Ware site in Germany. It's all been a thrill for the R1a guys thus far and nuts to us.

I could look up the details and post them, but I've got to get off the computer in a couple of minutes. I think Jean Manco's Ancient Eurasian DNA site has the details.



If you're referring to the Eulau site, I thought that the R1a1 there was related to one another - in other words, a single family.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



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