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Author Topic: Neolithic Farmers and the Spread of Indo-European, The Case for Euphratic, etc.  (Read 14601 times)
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #100 on: June 07, 2011, 10:14:21 AM »

Cruciani et al did not say that R1b-V88 migrated to Africa from Italy or Spain. There is no evidence of any such thing. They envisaged a Neolithic migration of V88 from the Levant to North Africa and then south via the Sahara.  

I don't think I am doing anything unsuitable in publishing this letter of Prof. Fulvio Cruciani which is the response to the first two posts of this thread sent to one of his colleagues, Prof. Rosaria Scozzari.
This isn’t in recognition of me, but of everyone of us who has something to say on this matter, who did exams at his own expense putting the results at everybody’s disposal. Prof. Cruciani (and his colleagues) is one of the most esteemed researcher worldwide, and not like many others who either for ideology or other have written papers that I, but others too, have enjoyed myself to dissect and practically to thwart. His V-series has given fundamental contributions to deepen the origin of many haplogroups, above all E and R, because he practises the science, and this science (like every other one) is made by proofs, in this case by new fundamental SNPs. After there are the interpretations, and for this it isn’t said that the specialist is advantaged. Who of us knows a dozen of languages (ancient and modern ones), has cultivated Glottology, History, Geography and many other disciplines perhaps he too has something to say.

Caro Gioiello,
Rosaria Scozzari mi ha girato la sua email.
I vari post sui blog di antropologia rappresentano per noi una ricca fonte di informazioni su cui riflettere.
Circa le tue ipotesi riportate in questa mail, non mi sento né di contraddirle, ne di appoggiarle, ma le terrò in considerazione.
Spero che in futuro si arrivi ad una comprensione più chiara del nostro passato attraverso gli studi sulla diversità genetica.
Cordiali saluti
Fulvio Cruciani

Fulvio Cruciani, PhD
Dipartimento di Biologia e Biotecnologie "Charles Darwin"
Sapienza Università di Roma
P.le Aldo Moro 5
00185  Rome, Italy
(…)

(Dear Gioiello,
Rosaria Scozzari forwarded to me your email.
Many posts on anthropology blogs are for us a rich source of information to be minded.
Re. your hypotheses reported in your mail, I don’t feel either to contradict them or to support, but I’ll take them in consideration.
Hope that in the future we’ll be able to reach a clearer understanding of our past by studies on genetic diversity.
Kind Regards,
Fulvio Cruciani)

From Worldfamilies, thread: That E1b1b1a from the Italian refugium, January 20, 2011, 08:30:24 AM
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 10:20:16 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Jean M
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« Reply #101 on: June 07, 2011, 11:03:37 AM »

The study of the Fulani I cited a few posts back shows their lactase persistence comes from the European or Eurasian T-13910 allele and not the other, African varieties.
Sorry! I was coming in at the end of this discussion and should have read the whole thread.  That certainly is interesting and could change my ideas. At the moment I visualise R1b involved in the start of dairy farming around the Sea of Marmara and moving from there onto the steppe. I have followed Enattah in proposing the origin of  T-13910 on the steppe. It is rare in the Near East and most of Anatolia. However it could have first occurred among dairy farmers close to the Sea of Marmara and so spread into Europe in a first wave up the Danube into Funnel Beaker, prior to a second wave with IE. http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/secondary.shtml
In that case R1b V88 might have left for North Africa from Anatolia, rather than the Levant. 
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Jean M
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« Reply #102 on: June 07, 2011, 12:01:41 PM »

OK I have now updated my section on LP to work in the new paper on the Fulani. Thanks for posting it. I think it is all coming together.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #103 on: June 07, 2011, 02:24:16 PM »

Once, discussing with Ken Nordtvedt, who thought that Sardinian I-M26 came from Spain and not from Italy, I asked if he would have preferred to swim to Sardinia from Spain or from Italy. He said he preferred his yacht. The same I ask to you. Do you think that it was easier to reach Africa from Italy (or Spain) or from Anatolia? Remember that the centre of diffusion to Africa of R-V88 is Tunisia and not Egypt.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #104 on: June 07, 2011, 07:04:43 PM »

I don't know whether they were Neolithic Farmers or horse-riding pastoralists from the steppe, but I still think that somehow R1b-something-or-other was the driving force behind the spread of centum Indo-European languages, to the West, anyway.
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IALEM
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« Reply #105 on: June 08, 2011, 10:08:44 AM »

EDITED
According to Dr. D. Infante.INTOLERANCIA A LA LACTOSA: EN QUIÉN Y POR
QUÉ .(Anales de Pediatría 2008) 72,4% of the Spanish population is CC-13910. Previous studies on lactase intolerance in Spain reported much lower levels of intolerance. The main study by  Vázquez C. Malabsorción de los hidratos de carbono en el niño: Malabsorción de la lactosa. An Esp Ped 1975;8:166-78. found 14,8% of intolerance in a sample of 715 individuals form severals regions Anyway no other study, including regional ones, found levels superior to 40%. The article by D. Infante is very technical and I don´t quite understand it, but the conclusion seems to be that the relation between lactose intolerance and CC-13910 mutation is not that direct
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 10:36:31 AM by IALEM » Logged

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« Reply #106 on: June 08, 2011, 11:36:30 AM »

Here is another interesting thought:

Did the Bell Beaker folks skip over the Basques?  What does the archaeology found in old Aquitanian (Basque ancestral) regions tell us?


Bell Beaker culture is present all along the Basque Country. In fact it brings the first important cultural change to the region since Paleolithic times. Neolithic in the Basque country is very late (c.4000 BC) and it doesn´t bring important cultural changes, people still live mainly in caves and epipaleolithic microlithic industry remains the same, it is only with the arrival of Bell Beaker that all that changes, we start to see small villages, ceramic and lithic industry changing radically, first metal working, individual burials...

Just to make sure I have it straight, you are talking about current Spanish/French Basque Country, right?

Isn't it thought that the Basques are descendants of Aquitanian people slightly more to the north (in France) than Basque Country?
Sorry I missed your post.
No, I am talking about the area around the Pyrenees, north and south, more or less the area of the ancient Aquitani. You may be mislead by the Bell beaker extension map in the Wiki page, but in fact there are Bell beaker sites along the whole area of ancient Aquitani, in fact the Spanish side of the Pyrenees received the Bell Beaker culture not from the first wave from Western Iberia, but from a second wave traversing from north to south along the Atlantic coast.
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« Reply #107 on: June 08, 2011, 03:28:28 PM »

No, I am talking about the area around the Pyrenees, north and south, more or less the area of the ancient Aquitani. You may be mislead by the Bell beaker extension map in the Wiki page, but in fact there are Bell beaker sites along the whole area of ancient Aquitani, in fact the Spanish side of the Pyrenees received the Bell Beaker culture not from the first wave from Western Iberia, but from a second wave traversing from north to south along the Atlantic coast.
That's very interesting. Is there some place that describes these Bell Beaker waves?
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« Reply #108 on: June 08, 2011, 07:46:59 PM »

Has anyone mentioned the new paper by Dolgopolsky on the PIE homeland question?

You can get it with a link provided at Dienekes' Anthropology Blog:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/

Scroll down quite a ways to find it (May 29, 2011).

Quote
Dolgopolsky on the two homelands of PIE

A classic study of the problem, which makes the two most important linguistic points:

    1. Lexical borrowing between PIE and Kartvelian/Semitic languages places the early PIE homeland in the Near East
    2. The maximum dialectal diversity within IE in the Balkans places the secondary PIE homeland in Southeastern Europe

I haven't had a chance to read the whole paper yet.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 07:48:23 PM by rms2 » Logged

NealtheRed
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« Reply #109 on: June 08, 2011, 10:10:14 PM »

Has anyone mentioned the new paper by Dolgopolsky on the PIE homeland question?

You can get it with a link provided at Dienekes' Anthropology Blog:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/

Scroll down quite a ways to find it (May 29, 2011).

Quote
Dolgopolsky on the two homelands of PIE

A classic study of the problem, which makes the two most important linguistic points:

    1. Lexical borrowing between PIE and Kartvelian/Semitic languages places the early PIE homeland in the Near East
    2. The maximum dialectal diversity within IE in the Balkans places the secondary PIE homeland in Southeastern Europe

I haven't had a chance to read the whole paper yet.

This is a very interesting journal article. It disagrees with the PIE homeland being north of the Black Sea in the steppe, and rather argues for an Anatolian homeland due to PIE lexicon similarities with surrounding Semitic, Southern Caucasian and Sumerian dialects.

Dolgopolsky argues that the steppe is rather the homeland of the Indo-Iranian dialects of IE, which splintered off from PIE after migrants moved from Anatolia through the Balkans.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 10:11:32 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

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GoldenHind
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« Reply #110 on: June 08, 2011, 10:25:16 PM »

I don't know whether they were Neolithic Farmers or horse-riding pastoralists from the steppe, but I still think that somehow R1b-something-or-other was the driving force behind the spread of centum Indo-European languages, to the West, anyway.

On this point at least, we are in full agreement.
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IALEM
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« Reply #111 on: June 09, 2011, 04:40:19 AM »

No, I am talking about the area around the Pyrenees, north and south, more or less the area of the ancient Aquitani. You may be mislead by the Bell beaker extension map in the Wiki page, but in fact there are Bell beaker sites along the whole area of ancient Aquitani, in fact the Spanish side of the Pyrenees received the Bell Beaker culture not from the first wave from Western Iberia, but from a second wave traversing from north to south along the Atlantic coast.
That's very interesting. Is there some place that describes these Bell Beaker waves?
The classical study of the Reflux theory is SANGMEISTER, E. 1963: “La civilisation du vase campaniforme”.
Actes du Premier Colloque Atlantique (Brest, 1961): Les civilisations atlantiques du
néolithique á l´Age du Fer: 25-56. Rennes
There are many variants to this theory you can check in any monography about Bell beaker.
The main point is that there is a great difference between the early  Maritime Bell beaker and the late Palmela Bell beaker, the first originated in Portugal and radiated from West to East in Iberia, the second coming from France into Iberia
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« Reply #112 on: June 11, 2011, 07:56:47 AM »

I don't know whether they were Neolithic Farmers or horse-riding pastoralists from the steppe, but I still think that somehow R1b-something-or-other was the driving force behind the spread of centum Indo-European languages, to the West, anyway.

On this point at least, we are in full agreement.

What, are we arguing about everything else? ;-)

When it comes to this PIE thing, I just don't know any of the answers.
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A.D.
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« Reply #113 on: June 14, 2011, 05:13:09 PM »

Yeah I read that article about the Neolithic.  It slightly contradicts another recent study of early Neolithic dates that suggested a simultaneous entry into south-central England and south-east Scotland.  I understand the guys of it is there was a short pioneer phase for 200 years restricted to lowland England where presumably some adaptation happened before they expanded into the rest of the isles suddenly in 2 or 3 generations.  The time difference of 2-300 years would barely be detectable using variance etc so I am not sure this makes much difference.

Would a sudden influx of a large number over a short time have more impact than over a short time. Wouldn't a sudden influx lead to replacement and one over a longer time tend towards assimilation.
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« Reply #114 on: June 16, 2011, 08:35:56 PM »



Whittaker includes a lot of vocabulary in the paper, and there are some interesting similarities with IE languages. If Euphratic is indeed IE, that would fall more in line with Neolithic farmers spreading it, hence R1b's connection.

Euphratic could be a sister language to Indo-European!
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« Reply #115 on: June 16, 2011, 09:18:12 PM »


This bit is interesting:
Collective violence

One interpretation of these events is that once the initial "pioneer" phase of the Neolithic period was over, independent groups of people came over from the continent and set up villages across Britain and social structures began to form.

These social structures led to the construction of the enclosures for people to gather and possibly for chieftains to emerge and amass power.

The new dating suggests that there was more collective violence once the enclosures were built. Several of them, particularly in western Britain, were attacked by large numbers of people with showers of arrows, and enclosures' ramparts were burned down.

This indicates that the enclosures created a hierarchy that was being contested in some way.


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rms2
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« Reply #116 on: June 17, 2011, 06:51:13 PM »



Whittaker includes a lot of vocabulary in the paper, and there are some interesting similarities with IE languages. If Euphratic is indeed IE, that would fall more in line with Neolithic farmers spreading it, hence R1b's connection.

Euphratic could be a sister language to Indo-European!

Indo-European is the language family. Euphratic is supposedly a member of that family, not another separate family to which Indo-European is somehow related.
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« Reply #117 on: July 05, 2011, 08:33:37 AM »

Lack of evidence is not evidence of absence, but the odds of R-M269 being the "lead" carrier in the great LBK (Linear Pottery) and Impressed Wares (Cardial Pottery) expansions are being diminished.
This is going to spur a lot of discussion (and speculation) for the next several months.  Whether a neolithic or copper age entry into Europe, it's very interesting that no R1b would show up in 3000 BC southern France where it is a majority today.

Let's wait. The mtDNA was practically the same of to-day, then no introgression after then,  and Oetzi is knocking at the door.
What do you think Oetzi will tell us?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otzi_the_Iceman

He's a citizen of the Copper Age, born about 3300 BC, found up in the mountains. Doesn't sound like a classic farmer.
Quote
This degree of mobility is not characteristic of other Copper Age Europeans. Ruff proposes that this may indicate that Ötzi was a high-altitude shepherd
He'd been eating deer meat, but also possibly bread.

If he comes out as R1b what does that mean? He might have just been an early pioneer for an incoming IE people.  It certainly doesn't prove he was in the Alps during the Neolithic advances or the Mesolithic.  It doesn't disprove that either.  So what will Otzi tell us?  Are you thinking he'll be some kind of R-M269+ L23- guy?  Even if he is, that doesn't mean the R-L23 L11+ guys that swept across Europe descended from him. They could still have come from further east.


They have sequenced Otzi's full genome and found a few interesting facts. The era of full genome ancient DNA is upon us.


"Less than 2 hours before he hiked his last steps in the Tyrolean Alps 5000 years ago, Ötzi the Iceman fueled up on a last meal of ibex meat. That was the conclusion of a talk here last week at the 7th World Congress on Mummy Studies, during which researchers—armed with Ötzi's newly sequenced genome and a detailed dental analysis—also concluded that the Iceman had brown eyes and probably wasn't much of a tooth brusher".

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2011/06/the-icemans-last-meal.html?ref=hp
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« Reply #118 on: July 05, 2011, 08:59:36 AM »

Wow!

Now that they have sequenced Ötzi's entire genome, it's time for them to release the results, or at least to tell us what his y haplogroup was.
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OConnor
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« Reply #119 on: July 05, 2011, 11:47:38 AM »

My guess is it will happen on the anniversary of his finding.


The mummy was found in September 1991 in the Ötztal Alps, near Hauslabjoch on the border between Austria and Italy.
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rms2
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« Reply #120 on: July 05, 2011, 07:23:29 PM »

My guess is it will happen on the anniversary of his finding.


The mummy was found in September 1991 in the Ötztal Alps, near Hauslabjoch on the border between Austria and Italy.

You are probably right. I have some news on this subject, but I'm starting a separate thread on it.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #121 on: July 30, 2011, 04:21:53 PM »

I was thinking there, we should probably not let semantics regarding what is Proto IE blind us to the fact that Anatolian may be older and Euphratic older still.  Regardless of whether  they are called pre-proto IE or whatever it still points to the roots of that language family being south of the Black Sea and close to the area of the rise of agriculture. 
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #122 on: July 30, 2011, 04:49:20 PM »

I have written a lot about this: the Euphratic reconstructed is a centum language, has overcome the Laryngeal phase and is very close to Latin and Italian heritage (see the case of the word “donnola”).
It was a very old prejudice that light came from East.
To day I have had the results of an Italian American from Tuscan ancestry who is R0a2, haplogroup I spoke a lot about on many forums, also against illustrious geneticists who believed to have found the proofs that Etruscans came from East.
Read what FTDNA writes now about this haplogroup, which was believed Middle Eastern par excellence:

“Mitochondrial haplogroup R0a (formerly known as pre-HV1) is a
primarily European haplogroup that was present in Europe beginning
approximately 20,000 years ago. It occurs in very low frequency
throughout Europe, and some descendant lineages of the original
haplogroup R0a appear in the Near East as a result of migration
. It
was probably one of the original mitochondrial haplogroups in Europe,
and likely pre-dates the occurrence of farming in Europe. Future work
will better resolve the distribution and historical characteristics of
this haplogroup”.
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Maliclavelli


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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #123 on: July 31, 2011, 06:03:30 AM »

I was thinking there, we should probably not let semantics regarding what is Proto IE blind us to the fact that Anatolian may be older and Euphratic older still.  Regardless of whether  they are called pre-proto IE or whatever it still points to the roots of that language family being south of the Black Sea and close to the area of the rise of agriculture. 

If true proto-IE is an offshoot subset of an older pre-proto IE then all the IE languages are  descended from one off-shoot of the older root language. IF the pre-proto IE language was indeed located in the Iraq/Anatolia area then where was the secondary point where proto-IE formed and jumped off from.  Also, how and why did the PPIE language reach the PIE secondary jump off point?  IMO, at that stage it would surely have to be a folk migration.  My own guess is that PIE arose in either NW Anatolia or extreme SE Europe among either the first farmers or those very early dairy pastoralists that have been identified there and that from there the language spread east and west.  Probably the spread west was a little earlier, extensive and a folk movement.  The spread east may have come from the same PIE core in SE Europe but been a little later and perhaps with a far lesser genetic impact.  Of course that would mean that R1a was not originally IE. 
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« Reply #124 on: July 31, 2011, 06:51:34 AM »

It isn’t said that Euphratic (if all this story will be believable) expanded to East (from an hypothetical origin also in South Balkans) as a first expansion. It is dated at the 4th millennium BC and certainly Hittite separated long before.
The expansion of the Cardial agriculturalists from Italy to West, I think autochthonous and Indo-European (or Proto-IE) speaking, began about 7500 BC. There are more than 3500 years for an expansion from same places near Italy or the Balkan peninsula of a people centum language speaking to Middle East.
The following history with the cases of Mitanni (a satem language speaking people) and other peoples demonstrates that it can have happened.
The wandering of Tocharians to Central Asia demonstrates this could have happened too.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2011, 08:35:41 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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