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Author Topic: Haplotypes of R1b1a2-P312 and related subclades... by Anatole Klyosov  (Read 2758 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: May 25, 2011, 09:09:14 PM »

Anatole Klyosov has released an official version of a new paper he has written on R-P312. Here is some background on him: http://aklyosov.home.comcast.net  

The paper is published in the "Proceedings of the Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy,
2011 June, Volume 4, No. 6"

The title of the paper is  'Haplotypes of R1b1a2-P312 and related subclades: origin and “ages” of most recent common ancestors' and he does give explicit dates for most of the known subclades. He cites data I sent him from the R-L21 project public screens but the data I sent him is from a number of project screens.

Quote from: Anatole Klyosovl
A geographical/regional distribution of R1b1a2-P312 and it’s the largest
subclade P312-L21 was analyzed. The Bell Beaker movements from the Iberian
Peninsula up North, North-East and to the Isles from 4800 years before present
(ybp) and upward provides the best fit with the data of DNA genealogy.

I think I'll post it out on the R-P312 Yahoo Group.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 11:54:40 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2011, 06:04:39 PM »

Mike

Can you post a link to the paper.  When I follow the link, that latest paper is not there.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2011, 06:38:21 PM »

Mike
Can you post a link to the paper.  When I follow the link, that latest paper is not there.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/files/Proceedings_4_6_2011_pp.1-72.pdf
You might have to log in with a Yahoo ID first and join the P312 Yahoo Group.

I haven't really read through it yet but I don't expect that his views have changed much. I mainly like that he gives very specific TMRCA estimates for just about anything you send him and his method seems to match with what you can generate with Ken's calculator.

I like to ponder on his "Turkic" speaking R1b idea. I don't really think it is true but I don't to assume it isn't, and who knows? At least he comes forward with a proposition and is very discrete about it even he is sometimes hard to follow. Here is that origin article on R1b and R1a.
http://www.turkicworld.org/turkic/60_Genetics/Klyosov2010DNK-GenealogyEn.htm

Some people say he is biased. I don't know. He can be controversial for sure and I can say he is very intelligent.  The direct link to his Russian Proceedings journal June edition will be out soon. There are some other interesting topics:

СОNTENTS
Contents . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1126
Haplotypes of R1b1a2-P312 and related subclades: origin and “ages” of
most recent common ancestors. Anatole A. Klyosov . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1127
MacDonalds and Scottish R1b1a2 Haplotypes (an updated version).
Anatole A. Klyosov. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1196
MacDonalds and Scottish Haplotypes of Haplogroup I (an updated
version). Anatole A. Klyosov. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1230
The slowest 22 marker haplotype panel (out of the 67 marker panel) and
their mutation rate constants employed for calculations timespans to the
most ancient common ancestors. Аnatole А. Klyosov . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1239
DNA genealogy of the major haplogroups of Y chromosome (Part 1)
Anatole A. Klyosov. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1257
“Service by Blood and Death”. Klyosov (R1a1, West-Eurasian branch)
Family Story as a Mirror of Russian History. Аnatole А. Klyosov. . . . . . . . . . . . .1283
Climatic Correlations. The report presented at the XIX session of the seminar
"Earth system". Geological Faculty of Moscow State University – February, 2011.
Valery P. Yurkovets. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1306
DISCUSSIONS and correspondence on DNA genealogy, history,
Linguistics (excerpts) Anatole A. Klyosov . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1316
1. On the split of DNA lineages of the Jews and the Arabs. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1316
2. On DNA genealogy and the Tenths (having DYS388=10) . . . . . . . . . . . .1318
3. DNA genealogy and mutation rate constants . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1322
4. On time-wise distances between pairs of haplotypes. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1328
5. R1a1 haplogroup in India. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1331
6. On the Ballantyne’s et al (2010) paper on father-son mutations . . . . . . .1333
7. R1a1-M458 in Italy and the principles of DNA genealogy. . . . . . . . . . . .1337
LETTERS FROM THE READERS:
PERSONAL CASES
Part 28 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1348
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 06:55:39 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2011, 07:04:18 PM »

Mike

Yes I have heard his arguements before and his dates do seem to not be far off many others.  However, the one major difference is that he sees a perfect link with beakers etc and an Iberian exodus.  What I dont understand is how does he arrive at that conclusion when other people look at the variance and conclude S116 is older in west-central Europe.  Is this something to do with his methodology? 
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« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2011, 07:15:18 PM »

I've started reading the paper. It's a little aggravating that he calls Mike "administrator of R1b1ba2-L21 site". Mike is an administrator of the R-L21 Plus Project, but I have put a lot of work into that project and am its Group Administrator. Maybe it sounds petty to mention it, but the d-word that I can't post here apparently.

Anyway, now that I got that off my chest, so far, I find the paper interesting. It reiterates what Dr. Klyosov has said before, and he could be right. A couple of things that might throw a monkey wrench into his very confident assertions are 1) the possible discovery that the Euphratic language of the Sumerians (Klyosov calls them "Sumers") was Indo-European, and 2) the possibility that the Basque language is an archaic IE language (I know Gioiello disagrees with that very strongly).

Even if Basque really is non-IE, I think Klyosov makes too much of it. He falls into the trap that so many have fallen into of identifying all of the L11 with the Basques and their language.

Okay, those are my initial complaints and impressions. Dr. Klyosov could be right in what he says. Who knows?

« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 07:16:13 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2011, 07:24:36 PM »

Mike

Yes I have heard his arguements before and his dates do seem to not be far off many others.  However, the one major difference is that he sees a perfect link with beakers etc and an Iberian exodus.  What I dont understand is how does he arrive at that conclusion when other people look at the variance and conclude S116 is older in west-central Europe.  Is this something to do with his methodology? 

Good point. In addition, you have the progress of L11- and L11 from east to west across Europe. P312 just seems to be a continuation of the general R-M269 east-to-west trend.

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« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2011, 07:32:37 PM »

Klyosov dismisses all attempts to place Celtic or Proto-Celtic before 800-900 BC as "typically groundless", but I think that ignores a lot and assumes a lot more.

A number of experts better suited to judge Celtic matters have theorized that the Beaker folk brought Q-Celtic to the British Isles sometime in the third millennium BC.

If Euphratic turns out to be an archaic IE language, that may go a long way to alter the paradigm in the direction of Renfrew and the Neolithic farmers hypothesis, or perhaps toward Gamkrelidze and Ivanov and the Armenia/Eastern Anatolia homeland idea.

Honestly, I hope Euphratic turns out to have been IE.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 07:36:33 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2011, 07:38:01 PM »

Mike

Yes I have heard his arguements before and his dates do seem to not be far off many others.  However, the one major difference is that he sees a perfect link with beakers etc and an Iberian exodus.  What I dont understand is how does he arrive at that conclusion when other people look at the variance and conclude S116 is older in west-central Europe.  Is this something to do with his methodology? 
I should clarify my thinking. R-P312 in Iberia is not young. I think it is definitely under consideration as point of expansion.  I tend to argue against it just becase it is clear that L21 and U152 is not from there so the R-P312 in the Isles is mostly NOT from Iberia.

If we find out that R-Z196, the new subclade that takes in SRY2627 and the North-South Cluster, is older in Iberia than out there is a lot of credence added to an out of Iberia expansion. I do expect R-Z196 to be in the same realm of variance as L21 and possibly U152. I don't know. I'm not sure these intra-clade variance numbers are that conclusive when there is only 5 or 10% difference in the levels.

I know this doesn't help us as much on direction as we'd like, but I think the big story is really in the closeness of age of these subclades along with their wide-spread presence.  I'm not saying this has anything to do with the IE languages, but these R-L11*, R-U106 and R-P312 people all spread very quickly ... all over and all at once.
To me that means they were probably weren't land loving farmers plodding to the next valley, but fast moving folks running along the coasts and up the rivers.  I'm not saying they were maritime, but they were more like a swarm of bees than a kicked over bucket of honey. They must have have relatively good transportation methods.... boats, horses, I don't know.
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« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2011, 07:43:41 PM »



. . . R-Z196, the new subclade that takes in SRY2627 and the North-South Cluster . . .


That is news to me. This is a stupid question, I guess, given what you wrote above, but have both SRY2627+ guys and North-South guys tested Z196+?

If so, I guess that would mean it is upstream of L176.2.
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« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2011, 07:46:58 PM »

I've started reading the paper. It's a little aggravating that he calls Mike "administrator of R1b1ba2-L21 site".
Sorry, Rich.  I didn't insert any of that. I just sent him the files. I haven't even read it yet. I saw he said they were L21 project files but in reality they are from many projects.
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« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2011, 07:48:56 PM »



. . . R-Z196, the new subclade that takes in SRY2627 and the North-South Cluster . . .


That is news to me. This is a stupid question, I guess, given what you wrote above, but have both SRY2627+ guys and North-South guys tested Z196+?

If so, I guess that would mean it is upstream of L176.2.
Yes and yes. I have not seen the results personally but R.Rocca and the guys looking at the 1000 Human Genome project and doing WTY finch server "blasts" have found that.
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« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2011, 07:49:51 PM »

I've started reading the paper. It's a little aggravating that he calls Mike "administrator of R1b1ba2-L21 site".
Sorry, Rich.  I didn't insert any of that. I just sent him the files. I haven't even read it yet. I saw he said they were L21 project files but in reality they are from many projects.

Not your fault. I may be glad in the long run not to have my name mentioned in that paper.
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« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2011, 08:29:33 PM »



. . . R-Z196, the new subclade that takes in SRY2627 and the North-South Cluster . . .


That is news to me. This is a stupid question, I guess, given what you wrote above, but have both SRY2627+ guys and North-South guys tested Z196+?

If so, I guess that would mean it is upstream of L176.2.
Yes and yes. I have not seen the results personally but R.Rocca and the guys looking at the 1000 Human Genome project and doing WTY finch server "blasts" have found that.

I just created an R-Z196 (L176.2-) category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.
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« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2011, 08:57:27 PM »


I just created an R-Z196 (L176.2-) category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

I just submitted a bulk email to all the R-P312 and Subclades Project members asking those who are R-P312*, especially the members of the R1b North-South Cluster, to consider ordering Z196.

Of course, FTDNA has to approve the bulk email before it goes out.
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« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2011, 11:29:35 PM »


I just created an R-Z196 (L176.2-) category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

I just submitted a bulk email to all the R-P312 and Subclades Project members asking those who are R-P312*, especially the members of the R1b North-South Cluster, to consider ordering Z196.

Of course, FTDNA has to approve the bulk email before it goes out.
Good idea. No telling how widespread Z196 is since it includes both North-South cluster and SYR2627 (and L176.2 above it and L165 to the side.) That's quite a range of haplotypes so I'm not sure if there will be any STR signature that fits Z196 other than WAMH itself which pretty much means all P312* should test.

We should double check, but I think L238+ are Z196-.

P312** or whatever the remainder will be, may start shrinking towards insignificance.

Oh  yes, I've always noticed that the R-M153 off-modals almost match up with North-South. There may be a good reason. I don't know if this is confirmed but M153 (the "Basque marker" may fit under Z196 as well.
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« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2011, 11:46:48 PM »

I noticed Klyosov places R1b in the Sredny Stog and Khvalynsk cultures or what he calls pre-kurgan cultures.  The interesting part with this is, from there he has M269 and L23 abruptly going south through the Caucasus into SW Asia (and later to Iberia as P312 Bell Beakers), presumably among the Maikop and Kura-Araxes people.  However, Sredny Stog and Khavlynsk were important to the development of the Yamnaya horizon which would be much more likely for an already present R1b to filter into and expand from with this theory. 

Does anyone have any fully tested P312* from Iberia in order to get a variance estimate?  Many seem to lack some of the downstream tests which could give a misleading result.
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« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2011, 09:09:05 AM »

I noticed Klyosov places R1b in the Sredny Stog and Khvalynsk cultures or what he calls pre-kurgan cultures.  The interesting part with this is, from there he has M269 and L23 abruptly going south through the Caucasus into SW Asia (and later to Iberia as P312 Bell Beakers), presumably among the Maikop and Kura-Araxes people.  However, Sredny Stog and Khavlynsk were important to the development of the Yamnaya horizon which would be much more likely for an already present R1b to filter into and expand from with this theory. 

Does anyone have any fully tested P312* from Iberia in order to get a variance estimate?  Many seem to lack some of the downstream tests which could give a misleading result.
I've had so much fun figuring out how to keep up with all of the new SNPs for R-L21 that I haven't collected P312* data for a couple of months. I'm about to start on that.

You are dead on. The problem is the P312* "club" needs to get a little more progressive and testing all of the latest downstream SNPs. There is a good amount of Z196 tests pending now though.
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« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2011, 12:41:53 PM »

@ Rich
“Anyway, now that I got that off my chest, so far, I find the paper interesting. It reiterates what Dr. Klyosov has said before, and he could be right. A couple of things that might throw a monkey wrench into his very confident assertions are 1) the possible discovery that the Euphratic language of the Sumerians (Klyosov calls them "Sumers") was Indo-European, and 2) the possibility that the Basque language is an archaic IE language (I know Gioiello disagrees with that very strongly)”.

I thank you for remembering me. Certainly Klyosov is a great researcher (it is enough to read his bibliography), but I have many times criticized him because genes aren’t molecules. In these last times many papers have said that the time of Y-Adam is different than it was thought, the last the paper of Cruciani and colleagues (I am always waiting he does that research he promised me about the African R1b1* if could have come from Italy (or Spain) rather than Middle East).
What are you saying about languages… I can say that for linking Basque with Indo-European we need more time: if a link there is, we should think to the level of Nostratic or before, when we could link Nostratic to Basque-Caucasian-Nadené etc. What I have done in the past on this site was simply to falsify some etymology: the link of Basque with IE was false. This doesn’t exclude a deeper link, but the time should be more ancient, at least LGM or more and we don’t know if a comparison could yet be done.
The question of Euphratic is very different I think. It is very likable and very meaningful: the reconstructed IE is a form of centum language very close to western IE, more likely Latin and with many links with the Italian field. This could demonstrate an origin in the Balkans or Central Europe. Not always East is the origin: I have demonstrated that many Y and mt may have come from West.
As regard to what Klyosov says, that R-P312 diffused from Iberia, it is likely. But we should say what has been demonstrated recently: that Iberia was peopled by sea from agriculturalists coming from Italy (Grotta delle Arene Candide and other). The 1000 Genome Project and many my postings here have demonstrated that the most ancient haplotypes we find in Iberia have come from Italy. The most ancient R-U152-s are in Tuscany (the unique part of Italy tested) and Liguria has the highest frequency all over Europe. Pretty all haplotypes found in Italy, even those thought of other origin, are the most ancient (the last the mt H* of my father tested by a cousin of mine c/o 23andme). An useful experiment everyone could do it is to see which haplogroups we find on Relative Finder. Even though we all are mixed, specially if our links are with persons migrated to America (North and South), my cousin (half Tuscan half Venetian) has a 27% of mt K and 57% Y R. There are someone who doubts that K is Italian? Specialy the North East where Brian Sykes put it?
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« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2011, 04:30:08 PM »

...."and to the Isles from 4800 years before present"


That fits in with time of the construction of Stonehenge.
It is also within the life time of the Amesbury Archer.

a fellow can dream can't he?
 
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« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2011, 07:19:58 PM »

"It is unlikely that the displacement of the Türkic languages by the Indo-European in the Western and Central Europe was quick and painless, or peaceful. Typically, in such transitions are acting together a number of factors, especially the military, economic and political (ideological). The military factor is not always necessary, or rather, is not decisive, but the last two factors are mandatory. Apparently, the carriers of the Indo-European languages arriving from the east convincingly (this is a wide concept) demonstrated to the Türkic-lingual population of the last millennium in the past era Europe the benefits of their organization, the advantages of producing or more progressive economy, education and culture. Only that could lead to the assimilation of the alien (for then-Türkic population of Europe) material culture and to the transition to a different language. This area still awaits its researchers" (Klyosov, http://www.turkicworld.org/turkic/60_Genetics/Klyosov2010DNK-GenealogyEn.htm)


You're right. He's not biased at all.


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« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2011, 07:28:06 PM »

When considering a Beaker/P312 origin in Iberia and looking at some of the Yahoo P312 members there are..

P312** - 2 in Spain, 2 France, 2 England, 1 Italy, 1 Poland, 1 Netherlands

So far most of the ancestral P312 is outside of Iberia and then there is Z196(now including a Polish member) which could really alter the picture as members get tested for it.  If Beaker is connected with the expansion of L51-P312+, then  I don't think it can narrowed down to Iberia, though southern Europe in general is a possibility (5 of the 9 in Spain, France, Italy).  This could coincide with the trail of anthropomorphic stelae and early Beaker dates mapped in north Italy and south France on Jean M's page.  R1b still looks like an overland expansion from the Balkans or the Danube corridor that only took to the sea around Liguria or the Rhone delta.

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« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2011, 08:10:36 PM »

I noticed Klyosov places R1b in the Sredny Stog and Khvalynsk cultures or what he calls pre-kurgan cultures.  The interesting part with this is, from there he has M269 and L23 abruptly going south through the Caucasus into SW Asia (and later to Iberia as P312 Bell Beakers), presumably among the Maikop and Kura-Araxes people.  However, Sredny Stog and Khavlynsk were important to the development of the Yamnaya horizon which would be much more likely for an already present R1b to filter into and expand from with this theory. 

Does anyone have any fully tested P312* from Iberia in order to get a variance estimate?  Many seem to lack some of the downstream tests which could give a misleading result.

Yes,  I found his over-confident assertion that the listed cultures were R1b somewhat startling.

But maybe he knows about some ancient dna research that we don't? If some Sredny Stog and Khavlynsk remains have tested R1b, I'd sure like to hear about it. That would be some earth-shaking news.
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« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2011, 09:52:19 PM »

Yes,  I found his over-confident assertion that the listed cultures were R1b somewhat startling.

But maybe he knows about some ancient dna research that we don't? If some Sredny Stog and Khavlynsk remains have tested R1b, I'd sure like to hear about it. That would be some earth-shaking news.

Unfortunately no ancient dna yet.  I would like to see the pre-M269 R1b data that supports an Altai and/or Central Asian homeland.  I've only seen a handful here and there, maybe 5 or 6 percent at most in the Zhong study (Uighurs), but not enough to make that conclusion.  I think it works for R and R1, but by the time of P25, P297, and early M269, SW Asia and the Caucasus is still a better option for that segment of r1b, imo.
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Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

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