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Author Topic: The Scots: A Genetic Journey (Impressions)  (Read 1775 times)
rms2
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« on: May 22, 2011, 06:05:55 PM »

Here are my initial impressions after having just finished reading Moffat and Wilson's The Scots: A Genetic Journey. I enjoyed the book and would recommend it to anyone with an interest in genetic genealogy and especially to those with Scottish or other British Isles ancestry.

On the positive side, it is refreshing to see how much things have changed since April of 2006, when I ordered my first 37-marker y-dna test from FTDNA. Back then, "R1b" was considered the legacy of Cro Magnon cave-painting hunter-gatherers. Maybe you will doubt me, but I was pushing back against that idea very early on in 2006. Even back then I suspected it was wrong and suggested on at least three different dna discussion venues that R1b was much more recent in Western Europe. I remember emailing Vince Vizachero and suggesting to him the possibility that Barbujani et al had it right about the impact of Neolithic y-dna in Europe but that they had the haplogroups all wrong. I suggested then that R1b might be the biggest Neolithic immigrant clade, but at the time the Neolithic focus was on E1b1b (called E3b back then), J, and, to a lesser extent, G.

So it's good to see the shift away from the "Cro Magnon cave painters" idea to the Neolithic idea, even if that may require future refinements.

Even though I enjoyed the book and would highly recommend it, I do have a couple of complaints. First off, I think it's a crying shame that Moffat and Wilson brushed off L21 in Norway as simply all a product of the Viking slave trade. There are a lot of things I could say on that score, but I'll leave it at that for now.

Secondly, for a book about Scotland, it was lacking in L21 information. Perhaps my own L21 bias is showing here, but I don't think so. L21 was only very briefly dealt with - L21 in Scotland, for Pete's sake!

Another thing I didn't particularly care for was the use of Ethnoancestry's proprietary names for the SNPs, L21 being rendered as "S145", for example. That is a minor complaint, but it would have been nice if the y haplogroup shorthand had been employed, with the y haplogroup letter preceding the SNP. That would have made things far easier to understand, in my opinion.

Maybe my memory is failing me, but I don't recall P312 ("S116") getting any mention at all. Whoa.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 07:19:01 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2011, 05:49:17 PM »

I think its a very entertaining read but there are a number of times when they dodge issues and dont make a call.  The worst is that they jump back and forth between a first farmers and beaker origin for S116 clades.  Perhaps they are saying that it arrived in S116* form with the first farmers in some areas and that L21, U152 etc are later spin offs dating to the beaker era.  However, they simply gloss over these issues.  The variance of all S116 compared to its immediately downstream clades like U152, L21 are far too close to have such a two step spread.

Another complaint is they are still in thrall to the Milesian myth.  They bring L21 from Iberia or southern France but give no reason why.  I can accept that L21 is more Atlantic in geography but everything I know about both frequency and variance would point to L21 getting the isles from northern France, not Iberia.  So why do they go for Iberia?  Not sure because it makes no sense and they give no explanation.  I think the real reason is that geneticists  are mesmerised by these legend.  

However, it is good read and throws some interesting stuff up suggesting prehistoric origins for at least some U152 and U106.  The book also is to some degree of interest to those whose primary interests are more England or Ireland centred. It does tend to look at the Scottish story in terms of the British Isles as a whole.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 05:52:10 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2011, 08:20:38 PM »

It is an entertaining book, but a bit frustrating, from my point of view.

At one point, Moffat and Wilson call L21 ("S145") a "British variant" of M269 and then later say that it probably originated in southern France and northern Spain among the Atlantic Bell Beaker Folk. I was glad to see the clarification.

I think they botched L21 in Norway. Perhaps they are unaware there were Beaker Folk settlements on the southwestern coast of that country.

It's a good book overall, but there's not that much meat in it for the serious L21 enthusiast, or for genetic genealogy enthusiasts in general.

I can't see any real good reason to read it a second time.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2011, 06:32:13 PM »

Moffat and Wilson mention L159.2 as common among Beatties and Fergusons. I am well aware of Clan Beattie being predominantly L159.2+, but I have only one L159.2+ Ferguson.

Do they have access to different sources of data?
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2011, 07:51:34 AM »

Moffat and Wilson mention L159.2 as common among Beatties and Fergusons. I am well aware of Clan Beattie being predominantly L159.2+, but I have only one L159.2+ Ferguson.

Do they have access to different sources of data?

Probably Ethnoancestry results.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2011, 10:56:33 AM »

Moffat and Wilson mention L159.2 as common among Beatties and Fergusons. I am well aware of Clan Beattie being predominantly L159.2+, but I have only one L159.2+ Ferguson.

Do they have access to different sources of data?

Probably Ethnoancestry results.

Ah, hence the S169 designation. I am pleased to know there are other Fergusons who are L159.2+ though!
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


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Ysearch: 4PSCK



OConnor
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« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2011, 05:30:11 PM »

and then there is me, who is an O'Connor and R-L159.2+

Neal and I are both R-L159.2+ but 47/67. Doesn't that seem a little far off?  

I think they should include other Irish R-L159.2+ surnames like Ryan and O'Toole, Murphy, O'Connor. All good Leinster surnames.

The Leinster O'Connor's are supposed to be connected to the Ryans and O'Tooles and Murphy..and Byrnes. (and not the O'Connor's of Connaught. nor of O'Connor of Kerry, nor the Burrens near Galway.)

It seems I am a good ole Leinster Man.

(Don't ask me how R-L159.2 got to Isle of Man and Scotland and Norway and the Rhine from it's on-set about 400 AD.)

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Some dna testing might prove interesting at this link. Could any of these people be a Scot?  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10138060
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 05:45:20 PM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2011, 08:21:26 AM »

Moffat and Wilson mention L159.2 as common among Beatties and Fergusons. I am well aware of Clan Beattie being predominantly L159.2+, but I have only one L159.2+ Ferguson.

Do they have access to different sources of data?

Probably Ethnoancestry results.

Ah, hence the S169 designation. I am pleased to know there are other Fergusons who are L159.2+ though!
Do you have the Ysearch IDs for the S169+ guys?  I'll add them to the L21 spreadsheet if you do.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2011, 07:50:11 PM »

Moffat and Wilson mention L159.2 as common among Beatties and Fergusons. I am well aware of Clan Beattie being predominantly L159.2+, but I have only one L159.2+ Ferguson.

Do they have access to different sources of data?

Probably Ethnoancestry results.

Ah, hence the S169 designation. I am pleased to know there are other Fergusons who are L159.2+ though!
Do you have the Ysearch IDs for the S169+ guys?  I'll add them to the L21 spreadsheet if you do.

The thing is, I only have one L159.2+ Ferguson in the L159.2 Project, but Moffat and Wilson concur that Ferguson is a common L159.2+ surname. I am wondering what other database they have access to, that is unless such findings are pulled out of thin air (which I doubt, of course).

Those folks who have tested L159.2+ are either in Ysearch under the R1b1a2a1a1b4f designation, or can be found at the R-L159.2 Project website.

S169 is the nomenclature used by Ethnoancestry.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 07:52:23 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


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« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2011, 09:21:34 AM »

Moffat and Wilson mention L159.2 as common among Beatties and Fergusons. I am well aware of Clan Beattie being predominantly L159.2+, but I have only one L159.2+ Ferguson.

Do they have access to different sources of data?

Probably Ethnoancestry results.

Ah, hence the S169 designation. I am pleased to know there are other Fergusons who are L159.2+ though!
Do you have the Ysearch IDs for the S169+ guys?  I'll add them to the L21 spreadsheet if you do.

The thing is, I only have one L159.2+ Ferguson in the L159.2 Project, but Moffat and Wilson concur that Ferguson is a common L159.2+ surname. I am wondering what other database they have access to, that is unless such findings are pulled out of thin air (which I doubt, of course).

Those folks who have tested L159.2+ are either in Ysearch under the R1b1a2a1a1b4f designation, or can be found at the R-L159.2 Project website.

S169 is the nomenclature used by Ethnoancestry.

The reason I ask for the Ysearch ID's is I've already done a Ysearch pull and found that some people who mark themselves as L159.2+ aren't, but just think they would be or should be. I have no way of knowing who has been tested S169+ at Ethnoancestry though.  Do you? Or is there some way to see that?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2011, 07:33:37 PM »

Moffat and Wilson mention L159.2 as common among Beatties and Fergusons. I am well aware of Clan Beattie being predominantly L159.2+, but I have only one L159.2+ Ferguson.

Do they have access to different sources of data?

Probably Ethnoancestry results.

Ah, hence the S169 designation. I am pleased to know there are other Fergusons who are L159.2+ though!
Do you have the Ysearch IDs for the S169+ guys?  I'll add them to the L21 spreadsheet if you do.

The thing is, I only have one L159.2+ Ferguson in the L159.2 Project, but Moffat and Wilson concur that Ferguson is a common L159.2+ surname. I am wondering what other database they have access to, that is unless such findings are pulled out of thin air (which I doubt, of course).

Those folks who have tested L159.2+ are either in Ysearch under the R1b1a2a1a1b4f designation, or can be found at the R-L159.2 Project website.

S169 is the nomenclature used by Ethnoancestry.

The reason I ask for the Ysearch ID's is I've already done a Ysearch pull and found that some people who mark themselves as L159.2+ aren't, but just think they would be or should be. I have no way of knowing who has been tested S169+ at Ethnoancestry though.  Do you? Or is there some way to see that?

I have noticed a couple, maybe two or three, that should not be on Ysearch as L159.2+. Juchau is one surname that I saw.

As far as seeing who has tested S169+ with Ethnoancestry, I have no way of knowing.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2011, 10:56:00 AM »

Moffat and Wilson mention L159.2 as common among Beatties and Fergusons. I am well aware of Clan Beattie being predominantly L159.2+, but I have only one L159.2+ Ferguson.

Do they have access to different sources of data?

Probably Ethnoancestry results.

Ah, hence the S169 designation. I am pleased to know there are other Fergusons who are L159.2+ though!
Do you have the Ysearch IDs for the S169+ guys?  I'll add them to the L21 spreadsheet if you do.

The thing is, I only have one L159.2+ Ferguson in the L159.2 Project, but Moffat and Wilson concur that Ferguson is a common L159.2+ surname. I am wondering what other database they have access to, that is unless such findings are pulled out of thin air (which I doubt, of course).

Those folks who have tested L159.2+ are either in Ysearch under the R1b1a2a1a1b4f designation, or can be found at the R-L159.2 Project website.

S169 is the nomenclature used by Ethnoancestry.

The reason I ask for the Ysearch ID's is I've already done a Ysearch pull and found that some people who mark themselves as L159.2+ aren't, but just think they would be or should be. I have no way of knowing who has been tested S169+ at Ethnoancestry though.  Do you? Or is there some way to see that?

I have noticed a couple, maybe two or three, that should not be on Ysearch as L159.2+. Juchau is one surname that I saw.

As far as seeing who has tested S169+ with Ethnoancestry, I have no way of knowing.
That's exactly what I mean.  A prince....  http://www.news.com.au/national/todd-juchau-wants-to-change-his-first-name-to-prince/story-e6frfkvr-1225784058740

So I add him to my spreadsheet and check with Kirsten at the 464x project. He's there but no L159.2 test.  Not even sure if even matches the STRs that well.  I delete from the spreadsheet after wasting some time.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2011, 06:35:21 PM »

Moffat and Wilson mention L159.2 as common among Beatties and Fergusons. I am well aware of Clan Beattie being predominantly L159.2+, but I have only one L159.2+ Ferguson.

Do they have access to different sources of data?

Probably Ethnoancestry results.

Ah, hence the S169 designation. I am pleased to know there are other Fergusons who are L159.2+ though!
Do you have the Ysearch IDs for the S169+ guys?  I'll add them to the L21 spreadsheet if you do.

The thing is, I only have one L159.2+ Ferguson in the L159.2 Project, but Moffat and Wilson concur that Ferguson is a common L159.2+ surname. I am wondering what other database they have access to, that is unless such findings are pulled out of thin air (which I doubt, of course).

Those folks who have tested L159.2+ are either in Ysearch under the R1b1a2a1a1b4f designation, or can be found at the R-L159.2 Project website.

S169 is the nomenclature used by Ethnoancestry.

The reason I ask for the Ysearch ID's is I've already done a Ysearch pull and found that some people who mark themselves as L159.2+ aren't, but just think they would be or should be. I have no way of knowing who has been tested S169+ at Ethnoancestry though.  Do you? Or is there some way to see that?

I have noticed a couple, maybe two or three, that should not be on Ysearch as L159.2+. Juchau is one surname that I saw.

As far as seeing who has tested S169+ with Ethnoancestry, I have no way of knowing.
That's exactly what I mean.  A prince....  http://www.news.com.au/national/todd-juchau-wants-to-change-his-first-name-to-prince/story-e6frfkvr-1225784058740

So I add him to my spreadsheet and check with Kirsten at the 464x project. He's there but no L159.2 test.  Not even sure if even matches the STRs that well.  I delete from the spreadsheet after wasting some time.

Mike,

Don't even bother adding Juchau. He has not tested for L159.2, but joined the project. I am not sure why he joined; maybe I should add a disclaimer to the project description. I'm all for inclusion, but this could add to confusion.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


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Jdean
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« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2011, 07:09:48 PM »

Mike,

Don't even bother adding Juchau. He has not tested for L159.2, but joined the project. I am not sure why he joined; maybe I should add a disclaimer to the project description. I'm all for inclusion, but this could add to confusion.

You could create a group for people that shouldn’t be in the project which is what I did for my surname project, there is also an option in the GAP page to not display selected results.

Of course you could just simply throw him out !!
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 07:10:33 PM by Jdean » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2011, 07:37:33 PM »

Mike,

Don't even bother adding Juchau. He has not tested for L159.2, but joined the project. I am not sure why he joined; maybe I should add a disclaimer to the project description. I'm all for inclusion, but this could add to confusion.

You could create a group for people that shouldn’t be in the project which is what I did for my surname project, there is also an option in the GAP page to not display selected results.

Of course you could just simply throw him out !!

I will just place him in the "Predicted L159.2-" category. But like I mentioned earlier, I am curious to what other samples Ethnoancestry has access to, especially the Ferguson connection considering Galwegian origins of the clan.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 07:38:47 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2011, 10:30:28 AM »

When people upgrade to 67 markers I try to compare them to the rest of R-L21 and assign a "variety" where possible. It's always look for continental matches but they are a hard to come by.

Baugartner of Switzerland came up as GDs of 5-7 over 67 with the folks below. He has a clear 1030-A-Sc-24 signature. Most people call that Scots Modal although I'm not sure if it isn't really the Picts like EthnoAncestry thinks.

fN26096   Baumgartner   R-L21   Switzerland, Bern, Emmental, Langnau   1030-A-Sc-24   8WWGT

f67058   Young   R-L21   Scotland   1030-A-Sc   TZCZJ
f84774   Alger   R-L21   England, London, Middlesex, Kennington   1030-A-Sc-24   72MZ2
f173787   FitzStewart   R-L21   zzzUnkOrigin   1030-A-Sc-24   
f108238   Lawson   zzPredicted   England   1030-A-Sc-24   C48P3
f120820   MacFarland   R-L21*   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Ardstraw   1030-A-Sc-24   CS7PZ
f87585   MacPherson   R-L21   Scotland, Highland, Nairnshire, Cawdor   1030-A-Sc-24   649HC
f65511   Patterson   R-L21   zzzUnkOrigin   1030-A-Sc-24   XHNAC
f60748   Reid   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin   1030-A-Sc-24   
f21482   Rock   R-L21   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Armagh, Cladymore   1030-A-Sc-24   3HWW9
f14346   Tagert   R-L21   zzzUnkOrigin   1030-A-Sc-24   MABKF
fN44383   Tate   R-L21*   Ireland, Ulster   1030-A-Sc-24   CKS45
f36308   Turner   R-L21   Scotland   1030-A-Sc-24   NZWQD
f40082   zzzUnkName   R-L21   zzzUnkOrigin   1030-A-Sc-24   ZXUGD

Many people will look at the above and look for ways that Scots made it to Switzerland, which is a real possibility.  Of course, how is one to know if this isn't really relative from back home? The GD seems a little too close for that but GD's are just rough tools anyway.

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« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2011, 01:46:56 PM »

This news article I have read earlier in the year.
A lot can be learned if they can get aDNA from Orkney.

aaaaaaaaa

About a thousand skeleton parts belonging to a mix of genders and age groups, including infants, have been unearthed so far.

Dubbed the Banks Tomb, it's the first undisturbed Neolithic burial site to be discovered in Scotland in 30 years, Gibson said.

More...
http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2011/07/22/Stone-Age-tomb-unearthed-in-Scotland/UPI-16921311369715/


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M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2011, 04:44:10 PM »

It would be nice if they could get some dna from that site.
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