U152 and the Ancient Ligures or Ligurians

[Bren123]

Welsh, like other words, derives from Latin Volcae, a people who became synonimus of Stranger, the next people.

You mean the latinized name of the celtic tribe!

[Arch Y.]

The Volcae were a Celtic tribe. The ancient Germans generalized and applied their name to all Celts. It took various forms, becoming Welsh in the English tongue.

Didn't the Volcae inhabit Southern Germany?

Yes, they established Tolosa (Toulouse) as their chief city long before the Visigoths did after their sacking of Rome. My understanding is that Volcae means wolf, not stranger. Tectosages, meaning treasure seekers.

Wallea, Wallia, Walea or whatever is very similar to Wales is the Germanic term meaning "Stranger". Obviously, Wales and Cornwall are indicative of this.

Arch

[Maliclavelli]

See reply 26:

“We should think to an ancient Spanish haplotype (and we should think again to the Cantabrian Refugium) or to the possibility that R-U152 could have arrived to America before Columbus, through routes to be determined”.

In another thread I have hypothesized that there is no need to resurrect the Cantabrian refugium of R1b1b2: if South Western Europeans derive from the Cardial agriculturalists from Italy, amongst them, with above all R-P312*, probably there already was some R-U152*, found mostly by 1000 Genomes Project amongst Tuscans, then Italians, above all Ligurians.

[Bren123]

The Volcae were a Celtic tribe. The ancient Germans generalized and applied their name to all Celts. It took various forms, becoming Welsh in the English tongue.

Didn't the Volcae inhabit Southern Germany?

Yes, they established Tolosa (Toulouse) as their chief city long before the Visigoths did after their sacking of Rome. My understanding is that Volcae means wolf, not stranger. Tectosages, meaning treasure seekers.

Wallea, Wallia, Walea or whatever is very similar to Wales is the Germanic term meaning "Stranger". Obviously, Wales and Cornwall are indicative of this.

Arch

Most celticists have linked the word Uolc with hawk rather than wolf,from Wikipedia:

Etymology
 
Traditional etymologies have attributed Volcae to a word akin to Welsh golchi 'to wash' and Irish folc 'to bathe' (Proto-Celtic *wolkiō), making this tribe the 'river people' after a rough semantic adjustment. A more likely scenario is that this or a cognate in Pannonian Illyrian was used to name the river Volcos, from which the Volcae took their name.[citation needed] C. W. von Glück[18] derived the name from a word related to Old Irish folg 'agile, energetic'.[19]
 
Most Celticists today seem to agree that the tribal name Uolcae is related to Welsh gwalch 'hawk', akin to Latin falco 'hawk', (and they compare the Gaulish personal name Catuuolcus to Welsh cadwalch 'hero', literally 'battle-hawk'), though some prefer to translate Gaulish *uolco- as 'wolf' and, by semantic extension, 'errant warrior'.[20] There seems to be indication that their name is related to their breed of war greyhounds since before the 600 BC when the Tectosages and Tolistobogii Celts sacked Delphi. Survivors left accounts of the fierce Celts and the huge dogs who fought with them and at their side. They were described by Julius Caesar in his war reports, The Gallic Wars.
 
The name Tectosages, literally 'possession-seekers', meant 'claim-stakers', perhaps closer in sense to 'claim-jumper' or 'land grabber', and a direct cognate is found in Old Irish techtaigidir 'he/she seeks to (re)establish a land claim'.

[A.D.]

I ve posted about this before the 'war greyhounds' are not  grey hounds but closer to bull dogs there are quite detailed descriptions of 'war dogs' biting the noses of horses like bulldogs did. Large Irish hunting dogs  (wolf hounds) were known and prized in Rome, These  could be described as grey hounds. There are quite a few things about dogs who breed them and what they were used for in different cultures.

[Maliclavelli]

I invite you all to guess very carefully the map of R-U152 in the last paper of Busby et al. The first 5 levels of intensity of population are pretty exclusively in Central-North Italy. It is clear that this place is at the origin of this haplogroup.
It is scandalous how they don't recognize this and my complete victory. Some theorists, specially those of Italian descent even though not properly of this zone, are repulsive.

[Mikewww]

I invite you all to guess very carefully the map of R-U152 in the last paper of Busby et al. The first 5 levels of intensity of population are pretty exclusively in Central-North Italy. It is clear that this place is at the origin of this haplogroup.
It is scandalous how they don't recognize this and my complete victory. Some theorists, specially those of Italian descent even though not properly of this zone, are repulsive.

I think by "intensity" you mean high frequency. That's what the map in Figure 3 is showing, frequency.  If so, I disagree that this "intensity" clearly indicates origin.

I do think Cisalpine Gaul is the possible origin of U152, but if you look at the diversity it is higher "outside" to the north and west of the Alps. France has the highest diversity.  Even Busby agrees that diversity indicates age. Busby et al just think STR variance is not linearly associated with age. Its too erratic as used by Balaresque is the point.

[Maliclavelli]

Of course the history of an haplogroup is complex, of every haplogroup. From what we know so far, specially from the 1000 Genomes Project (and I don’t want to repeat what I have said many times on many forums), I think it is clear that R-U152 was born in Italy (3 out 4 R-U152* in Tuscany) and a pretty exclusively presence of DYS492=14. R-L2 was probably born out of Italy and returned to Italy after (perhaps). The frequency of R-U152 in Italy demonstrates not only to be the highest, but that this haplogroup exists here from very ancient time, before the known historic peoples.
That some Italian R-U152-s, like my friends Belgieri and also Grassi, can descend from Medieval Germans is possible and even likely, but I think that this doesn’t change the truth of my theory.

Cisalpine Gaul? R-U152 was in Italy many thousands of years before the names "Cisalpine" and "Gaul" were pronounced.

[Diana]

Hello Maliclavelli!!!

  I just came across your post!  I have to tell you that My family have been in Italy (Central Italy) since before Rome existed!  We are from Rome, Oriveto and Palestrina, (Umbria).

  I have only only had 25 markers tested for my eldest brother but have had his DYS492 tested as well as Deepclade and Z56.

   So, he is DYS492=14 and just found out Z56+.  He is kit 113856 on the U152 project.  Richard, Steve and team have been so helpful.  I feel lucky to be with such a proactive group of individuals!

  I would like to throw out there the possibility of the us being descendants of the Sabines.

  Diana

[Maliclavelli]

The data of your brother are very interesting. I have studied them a little and I have found (probably) the closest to them in two Italians tested by SMGF, that I have extracted and put on ySearch: Giobatta Filippozzi (5VQTZ) and an anonymous Italian I have named Italiano Qualunque: 75R8V. On ySearch there are other Italians, tested for only 12 markers, I think close to your brother: 2JMCM, 4NQV7, Y854Z.
Your brother’s data are interesting not only for getting DYS492=14, then R-Z42, Z43, Z56 (and we shall see the other SNPs under these), but also for the high value of DYS385b (17), DYS439=14, DYS464=14-15-17-18. If the persons I cited above are actually linked, they have also DYS461=11 and DYS635=24. Of course an extension of your test would be useful. If you have read my postings, on this thread but also some of the many thousands I have written elsewhere, certainly you know what I think about R-U152: that it was born in Italy and the most ancient is your brother’s subclade. The Tuscans tested by 1000 Genomes Project are demonstrating this.
Re: the ancient origin of your family I wouldn’t exclude an Etruscan origin (Umbria was in great part Etruscan), but probably this haplogroup is in Italy before that the Etruscan, the Roman, the Sabine name was used.
Re: Facebook I use it only like a World Phone (or better e-mail) Directory and about the other forum which banned me it and who writes on it are dead for me for ever. I fight my battles elsewhere and I fight to win.

[Maliclavelli]

Where we can clearly see that the haplotype of Panara, excluding the probably R1a of Eastern Europe and including South Americans of probably Italian extraction, is certainly centred in Italy.
These are the most ancient R-U152-s (DYS492=14).

Panara
1 14 14 30 24 11 13 13 11,17 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 14 30 24 11 13 13 11,17 12 12 15 19 15 17 23 12 >>
1 of 766 Australia [Aboriginal] Australian Aboriginal Oceania / Australia
1 of 99 Strasbourg, France [French] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

14 14 30 24 11 13 13 11,18 4 >>
14 13 29 24 11 13 13 11,17 24 >>
14 14 30 23 11 13 13 11,17 2 >>
14 14 30 24 11 13 13 11,16 17 >>
14 14 29 24 11 13 13 11,17 1 >>
14 14 30 24 12 13 13 11,17 1 >>
14 14 30 24 11 12 13 11,17 1 >>

4 14 14 30 24 11 13 13 11,18 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 88 Lugansk, Ukraine [Ukrainian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 157 Bialystok, Poland [Belarusian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 46 Virginia, United States [Hispanic American] Admixed North America
1 of 342 Bogotá, Colombia [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
14 14 30 24 11 13 13 11,17 2 >> 14 13 29 24 11 13 13 11,18 1 >> 13 14 30 24 11 13 13 11,18 0 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 13 11,18 12 13 15 19 15 17 25 13 >>
1 of 243 Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil [Admixed] Admixed Latin America
14 14 30 24 11 13 13 11,18 4 >> 14 13 29 24 11 13 13 10,18 3 >> 14 13 29 24 11 13 13 11,17 24 >> 14 13 28 24 11 13 13 11,18 1 >> 14 13 29 24 11 13 14 11,18 1 >>
2 14 13 29 24 11 13 13 10,18 12 12 14 20 15 17 24 12 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 13 10,18 12 12 15 19 15 17 24 12 >>
3 of 384 Ravenna, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
14 13 29 24 11 13 13 10,17 3 >>
14 13 29 24 11 13 13 11,18 1 >>
2 14 13 29 24 11 13 13 10,17 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 13 10,17 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 447 Sao Paulo, Brazil [European] Eurasian - European Latin America
1 of 811 Leipzig, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 106 Brescia, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
(From YHRD)

[Diana]

Grazie amico mio!!  I am so happy to have met you!

[Diana]

Update,

  I am now confirmed Z145 and still waiting on Z156!!!

[Maliclavelli]

Posting deleted

[Richard Rocca]

The author of that paper has been working hard on it for years and I'm sure he would be extremely annoyed/disappointed to know that something he told someone via a private email is being revealed to the world.

The right thing to do is for you to remove the post above.

[Diana]

This is on a facebook group which I am on.....

[Maliclavelli]

The author of that paper has been working hard on it for years and I'm sure he would be extremely annoyed/disappointed to know that something he told someone via a private email is being revealed to the world.

The right thing to do is for you to remove the post above.

Why? I have had a news, I esteem interesting, and I have given it to everybody. I don’t know who this person is, but it seems you know him very well. By revealing some data, I have only revealed a percentage, that, if it will be confirmed, will be very important for our theories. I haven’t these samples, I don’t publish a paper. I have been banned many times from many forums for my theories which would be confirmed by data like these. If you know something more, you can say it. Or are you that person? And you (or another person) why are hiding these important data?

[Maliclavelli]

Posting deleted.  14day ban.  Terry

[Richard Rocca]

I understand that Richard Rocca has no contact with Italy and if comes here he pitches Southward, but newspapers here are plenty, from many years,  of conferences of Sergio Tofanelli and what I said is known by everyone:

“Quindi Sergio Tofanelli, ricercatore dell’Università di Pisa, parlerà dell’”Indagine genetica del territorio: la mappatura del Dna nelle aree liguri-apuane alla luce delle ricerche in corso”.

Wrong on multiple fronts - In fact I have weekly contact with Italy and 75% of my travels there have been to the north and center.

[Gens Galeria]

R. Rocca, I'm Marco Grassi,
about the latest controversy, I reported the facts that where in all the papers maybe I added a little more, my passion for genetics went beyond these particular. Hawever I have already apologized to Sergio Tofanelli and I promised that I will not speak more.

[Gens Galeria]

Sorry " however"

[Jean M]

I have been banned many times from many forums for my theories

How many forums of this type ban people for their theories? I suppose there might be some weird places run by administrators who insist on a particular point of view, but I doubt if they would be very successful. Successful forums have a set of rules conducive to lively but civil discourse and enforce them. People get banned eventually if they do not abide by the rules, for example PERSONAL ATTACKS ARE NOT ALLOWED.  

As I understand this rule, that includes personal sniping intended to smear your opponent as ignorant, such as " I understand that X has no contact with Italy and if comes here he pitches Southward.."

[Diana]

Let me guess, he was removed.....

I have been banned many times from many forums for my theories

How many forums of this type ban people for their theories? I suppose there might be some weird places run by administrators who insist on a particular point of view, but I doubt if they would be very successful. Successful forums have a set of rules conducive to lively but civil discourse and enforce them. People get banned eventually if they do not abide by the rules, for example PERSONAL ATTACKS ARE NOT ALLOWED.  

As I understand this rule, that includes personal sniping intended to smear your opponent as ignorant, such as " I understand that X has no contact with Italy and if comes here he pitches Southward.."

[Diana]

Marco, I am going to contact Sergio directly.  Thank you for trying to share information for our better understanding. I am certain it was done without malice.

R. Rocca, I'm Marco Grassi,
about the latest controversy, I reported the facts that where in all the papers maybe I added a little more, my passion for genetics went beyond these particular. Hawever I have already apologized to Sergio Tofanelli and I promised that I will not speak more.

[Diana]

Ridiculous that information regarding this theory be wiped out!  Like he said, nothing was revealed which wasn't already published.

  I can't believe the censorship here.

 

Posting deleted