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GoldenHind
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« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2011, 11:32:37 PM »

I have my first man who has tested positive for U152 and L2 in my FTDNA Wales_Cymru project. I don't know anything about either of these SNPs, since I wasn't expecting them to turn up in Wales. Where can I go for more info on L2?
Thank you, Susan

Probably http://www.u152.org/ would be best.
Thanks, I did look at that, and seems L2 appears pretty much wherever there is U152*. The occurence of it in Wales looks to be extremely uncommon. I don't expect I'll see too many more men in my project test positive for it, although most men who are P312+/L21- have not yet tested for U152 or L2.
If there is some concentration of it in Italy, is there any way it could've been brought by the Romans to Wales?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/WalesDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

I believe L2 is common in Italy, so I guess it could have gotten to Wales with the Romans.

I agree that it is possible, but  I wouldn't rule out an arrival of various types of U152 to Britain long before the f the Romans.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2011, 03:51:08 AM »

Within the 1000 Genomes Project Rocca & Magoon have found 32 R-U152: 14 Tuscans, 9 CEU+GBR, 9 of probably Spanish descent (2 CLM-Colombians, 1 Spaniard, 4 MXL-Mexicans, 2PUR-Puertorican).
Actually Tuscan R-U152* aren’t 11 but 3 out of 4: the other is from GBR.
Tuscans have practically all the subclades found, and this is another element in favor of their ancientness. Probably all the others are derived from there, not only R-L2 supposed by Rich (Stevens) for Cymrycs and British.
I think it should be deepen the case of the 2 Mexicans with 18 SNPs defined by Rocca “familial”. 18 SNPs are many, which no other sample has. We should think to an ancient Spanish haplotype (and we should think again to the Cantabrian Refugium) or to the possibility that R-U152 could have arrived to America before Columbus, through routes to be determined.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2011, 03:42:37 PM »

I have my first man who has tested positive for U152 and L2 in my FTDNA Wales_Cymru project. I don't know anything about either of these SNPs, since I wasn't expecting them to turn up in Wales. Where can I go for more info on L2?
Thank you, Susan

Probably http://www.u152.org/ would be best.
Thanks, I did look at that, and seems L2 appears pretty much wherever there is U152*. The occurence of it in Wales looks to be extremely uncommon. I don't expect I'll see too many more men in my project test positive for it, although most men who are P312+/L21- have not yet tested for U152 or L2.
If there is some concentration of it in Italy, is there any way it could've been brought by the Romans to Wales?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/WalesDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

I believe L2 is common in Italy, so I guess it could have gotten to Wales with the Romans.

I agree that it is possible, but  I wouldn't rule out an arrival of various types of U152 to Britain long before the f the Romans.
Well I feel silly--let me retract my previous statement. ALL my P312 men have tested NEGATIVE for U152 except for one. I have just a few P312 men who haven't tested L21, but they are negative for U152. So, I really do have just one man derived for U152 and L2 in the Wales project.  With it being so rare in Wales (both on the map on u152.org and in my project), wouldn't it make more sense that it came with the Romans, than earlier? If it was in Wales before the Romans, I would think there would be a higher occurance. Haplogroups I and R-L21 are overpowering all other haplogroups in Wales. I think Hg I might have been there before the Beaker folk and before the Romans. But now I'm getting off topic. I will have to refer my one U152/L2 man to this discussion group.
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Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
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rms2
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« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2011, 07:16:25 PM »

There's no telling. Could be a Roman, but it could be almost anything. I agree that L2 is fairly rare in Wales.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2011, 05:11:00 AM »

 The telling thing is it didnt make it up the Atlantic coasts of the isles.  It must have been very rare in NW France at the time when people were moving from that area to the Atlantic parts of the isles.  I think this is a strong indicator that L21 was the earliest R1b clade to make it to NW France. However, Moffat and Wilson's idea that it came from S116* in Iberia or southern France seems to be them trying to fit things to the Milesian myth and also taking the asterisk too literally on S116*  The more I hear about the latter, the less I think of it as an upstream clade.  Its likely really parallel clades rather than ancestral.  For now, the evidence of variance strongly points to S116 originating somewhere near the west Alpine area, as did U152.  Somehow L21 or it S116 ancestor won the race to the Atlantic but otherwise I dont think it should be seen as different in origin from U152 in deep time terms.  My guess is a lot of the pattern of L11 west of the Rhine was set in an initial period of expansion when in different clades got in first in different areas.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2011, 03:40:36 AM »

“In conclusion, the Cardial phenomenon is an immeasurably sharper event than was understood 20 years ago. In its new guise it conforms with what we would expect from a migration: cultural derivation from northwest Italy, not the local Mesolithic; a very rapid spread, with the transplantation of the entire agricultural system; and the means in place to assure its spread and survival”. From (Westward Ho! The Spread of Agriculture from Central Europe to the Atlantic by Peter Rowley-Conwy, Current Anthropology http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/658368).




“cultural derivation from northwest Italy, not the local Mesolithic”. What does it mean? Mesolithic from Italy or from Iberia? I do note that from Ligurian R-U152 derived many peoples of South and Central Europe and this is in line with my theory of an Italian refugium.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 03:41:14 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2011, 09:49:40 AM »


Hello everyone,

First time posting on this site. Very interesting stuff.

As to this Rowley-Conwy article, I think what he's trying to say is that the Cardial neolithic  was spread to southern France and Iberia  from northwestern Italy by means of migrating farmers, and wasn't  soley? mainly? a case of the "Mesolithic" populations of those areas adopting agriculture through cultural transmission.

However, he also seems to be saying that the migrating population was a  "mixed" population; "neolithic male migrants who had interbred with local "mesolithic" women.

This is a layperson's analysis; if this is wrong, I hope the experts will chime in.

He doesn't present any genetic evidence other than a reference to a mtdna study showing that divergence of "European" lineages began 15,000 ybp, i.e. late paleolithic.

He also doesn't say what Ydna these neolithic migrants would have carried. 

Were these ancient ligures who transmitted the Neolithic package "E" or "J2a" or is it possible that they were some early form of "R1b"? I don't know, but if you're looking for a very rapid progress of a "Y" that would diversify somewhere in eastern France, could this movement of the Neolithic along the coast and up the Rhone for example be part of the discussion?

As for U-152, if you accept the "young" dates for it, it would be way too young for this, wouldn't it?   
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2011, 01:46:26 PM »

I have already heard the story of migrant males who wed local women: it is that told by Ted Kandall on 23andMe about Jews who migrated from Italy to the Rhine Valley. I don’t know, but it seems to me an attempt to mitigate a previous denying position.
About the paper, it doesn’t seem to me that it excludes that, after a diffusion of agriculture from Anatolia by a demic point of view, it is happened that early Neolithic men (and women) from Italy are become agriculturalists and have diffused with agriculture themselves to Western Europe, becoming from South France and Spain and after till the British Isles, where we find now hg. R1b.
Who knows me knows that I have always fought against the theory of the “young” date of R1b1b2, even though it was supported by respectable persons like Nordtvedt, Klyosov, Vizachero and others. I am curious, like every you all I think, to read the paper of Cristian Capelli and a colleague of his about this matter. I theorized the “mutations around the modal” and the few friends of mine are reconstructing step by step the modal of their line, I think the unique way to understand something about this matter.
Yes, said between us, I think just I am winning all along the line.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2011, 03:46:15 AM »

The last ytree of FTDNA has been published: http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=root. Also hg. R-U152 has been reorganized following the 1000 Genomes Project results.
Not only I reaffirm what I said before (Tuscany, then Italy and above all the Ligurian zone, is the origin of this haplogroup), but probably also the mysterious R-L4, thought specific of European Jews with its particular haplotype, finds its likely source.
Now it is labelled R1b1a2a1a1b3d (ISOGG: R1b1b2a1a2d4) and is “Approx. hg: R-Z42”. From the 1000 Genomes Project these are the lines:
U152(NA20512, NA20754, NA20755, HG00152)>Z42,Z43>Z56>S47,Z45>Z46 (NA20810)>Z44(NA12342,NA19652)
From Z56>Z71,Z144,Z145,Z146(NA20509)>Z72(NA20581,NA20814).
As S47 is a sister clade of L4, we can think that L4 is on the line of Z71…
In black are the Tuscans tested.

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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2011, 05:22:56 PM »

One interesting thing about the Ligurians is that the Ora Maritima of Rufus Festus Avienus says the Ligurians were chased out of Britain by the Celts.

Quote from: Avienus
If anybody has the courage to urge his boat into the waves away from the Oestrymnides under the pole of Lycaon (in the Northern sky) where the air is freezing, he comes to the Ligurian land, deserted by its people: for it has been emptied by the power of the Celts a long time since in many battles. The Ligurians, displaced, as fate often does to people, have come to these regions.

Avienus based his writing on much earlier Greek sources.

Do you have an original link? Weren't the britons once thought of has cimmerians,it was mentioned on another thread,can't remember which.
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« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2011, 09:45:52 PM »

The quote above can be found in David Rankin's Celts and the Classical World, an excellent work full of primary source material. I don't have the page number handy, but if you are interested in the Celts, you really need to get a copy of Rankin's book.
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« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2011, 10:48:43 AM »

One interesting thing about the Ligurians is that the Ora Maritima of Rufus Festus Avienus says the Ligurians were chased out of Britain by the Celts.

Quote from: Avienus
If anybody has the courage to urge his boat into the waves away from the Oestrymnides under the pole of Lycaon (in the Northern sky) where the air is freezing, he comes to the Ligurian land, deserted by its people: for it has been emptied by the power of the Celts a long time since in many battles. The Ligurians, displaced, as fate often does to people, have come to these regions.

Avienus based his writing on much earlier Greek sources.

Do you have an original link? Weren't the britons once thought of has cimmerians,it was mentioned on another thread,can't remember which.

Yes, Poseidonius referred to the Britons as Cimmerians. He's quoted in Diodorus 5.32-3 and Strabo 4.43. The passage is quoted in David Rankin's Celts and the Classical World, page 78.

Here it is.

The women [of the Celts] are as large as the men and as brave. They are mostly very fair-headed when they are born. The tribes of the north are extremely ferocious. The Irish and British are cannibals. They used to be known as Cimmerioi; now they are called Cimbroi. They captured Rome and plundered Delphi and ended by dominating a great part of Europe and Asia. They mixed easily with the Greeks and this section of them became known as the Gallograeci or Hellenogalatai.

But the Britons were not Ligurians. Avienus says the Ligurians were chased out of a land beyond the "Oestrymnides" by the Celts. As I recall, Rankin and Cunliffe say the Oestrymnides were Brittany, its neighboring islands, and possibly Cornwall. It's not certain exactly from where the Celts expelled the Ligurians, but it is possible that Avienus was referring to the British Isles.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2011, 12:40:58 PM »

It is interesting that from early post-Roman times the term Cymri (from Combrogi) was used by the Welsh to refer to themselves and related peoples of north Britain. I think it meant something like fellow countrymen although the Welsh form of the word 'Briton' (Brython or something - sorry cant spell it) was only superseded around Norman times.  I think though that linguists have trashed the idea of any link to Cimbri   
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Jdean
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« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2011, 12:50:22 PM »

It is interesting that from early post-Roman times the term Cymri (from Combrogi) was used by the Welsh to refer to themselves and related peoples of north Britain. I think it meant something like fellow countrymen although the Welsh form of the word 'Briton' (Brython or something - sorry cant spell it) was only superseded around Norman times.  I think though that linguists have trashed the idea of any link to Cimbri   

Where as Welsh came from the Saxon word for foreigner :)
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« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2011, 04:21:00 PM »

Welsh, like other words, derives from Latin Volcae, a people who became synonimus of Stranger, the next people.
In Hungarian Italy is Olasz-orszag, and also Olasz derives from this word.
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« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2011, 05:03:52 PM »

The Volcae were a Celtic tribe. The ancient Germans generalized and applied their name to all Celts. It took various forms, becoming Welsh in the English tongue.
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Bren123
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« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2011, 07:25:18 PM »

The Volcae were a Celtic tribe. The ancient Germans generalized and applied their name to all Celts. It took various forms, becoming Welsh in the English tongue.

Didn't the Volcae inhabit Southern Germany?
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« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2011, 07:55:11 PM »

The Volcae were a Celtic tribe. The ancient Germans generalized and applied their name to all Celts. It took various forms, becoming Welsh in the English tongue.
I thought Welsh is derived from a word literrally meaning outside the wall as in the wall of the city.
Is stranger also applicable in that it connotates a person out side the city wall?
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« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2011, 02:16:14 AM »

I thought Welsh is derived from a word literrally meaning outside the wall as in the wall of the city.
Is stranger also applicable in that it connotates a person out side the city wall?

German Linguists would call it a “Volksetymologie”.
From Latin Volcae , Germanic *Walhos, Ancient English Wealas, Wealhas, Modern English Wales, Cornwall, welsh (see C. Tagliavini, Le origini delle lingue neolatine, Bologna 1969, pages 163-4, footnote 13, and also Wartburg, FEW, 747-752).
Linguistics, like Genetics and every other science, is exactly a science, and doesn’t need amateurishness and improvisations.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2011, 06:33:31 AM »

One interesting thing about the Ligurians is that the Ora Maritima of Rufus Festus Avienus says the Ligurians were chased out of Britain by the Celts.

Quote from: Avienus
If anybody has the courage to urge his boat into the waves away from the Oestrymnides under the pole of Lycaon (in the Northern sky) where the air is freezing, he comes to the Ligurian land, deserted by its people: for it has been emptied by the power of the Celts a long time since in many battles. The Ligurians, displaced, as fate often does to people, have come to these regions.

Avienus based his writing on much earlier Greek sources.

Do you have an original link? Weren't the britons once thought of has cimmerians,it was mentioned on another thread,can't remember which.

Yes, Poseidonius referred to the Britons as Cimmerians. He's quoted in Diodorus 5.32-3 and Strabo 4.43. The passage is quoted in David Rankin's Celts and the Classical World, page 78.

Here it is.

The women [of the Celts] are as large as the men and as brave. They are mostly very fair-headed when they are born. The tribes of the north are extremely ferocious. The Irish and British are cannibals. They used to be known as Cimmerioi; now they are called Cimbroi. They captured Rome and plundered Delphi and ended by dominating a great part of Europe and Asia. They mixed easily with the Greeks and this section of them became known as the Gallograeci or Hellenogalatai.

But the Britons were not Ligurians. Avienus says the Ligurians were chased out of a land beyond the "Oestrymnides" by the Celts. As I recall, Rankin and Cunliffe say the Oestrymnides were Brittany, its neighboring islands, and possibly Cornwall. It's not certain exactly from where the Celts expelled the Ligurians, but it is possible that Avienus was referring to the British Isles.

Strange though.  While its totally clear there is no link with the Cimbri the tribe associated with the Teutones or the Cimmerians of the steppes etc, it does make me wonder if that Poseidonius reference to Cimbroi is some sort of early noting of the later name the Welsh used.  He does specifically say its what the Britons were called after all.  Probably not though.  There must be a major linguistic objection to that link. 

I agree that the Ligurians are interesting.  I kind of buy into the idea that they are an Italic-like branch of the Celto-Italic peoples.  As such they also put me in mind of the Lusitanians and other peoples of Atlantic Iberia.  I wonder if in the broadest sense the term refers to peoples who were connected in the early-mid Bronze Age by a network that linked from Italy to southern France to Atlantic Iberia and maybe even SW France.  To develop Italic-like dialects these areas must have been in some sort of shared contact network and I understand from some articles on the e-keltoi site about the Celts of Iberia that there was such a network of contact in the early-mid Bronze Age.  I certainly believe that Celtic developed along a more northerly network that linked France, the isles and west central Europe etc together from the Early Bronze Age. 

I often wonder about the references to the Ligurians having been chased out by the Celts and think perhaps these sources are recalling events that happened many centuries before in the late Bronze Age.  In a sense these Ligurian/Lusitanian speaking areas around the west Med and Atlantic Iberia were intruded in the late Bronze Age era by more northerly influences coming from the twin prongs of the urnfield and Atlantic Bronze Age networks which may well have been Celtic speaking.  I use networks as a neutral terms as we dont know how much was trade and how much involved population movement.  So, in a nutshell I tend to see the Ligures as the creation of links from Atlantic Iberia to italy that were strong in the Early to mid Bronze Age and their demise as a result of intrusion of Celtic influences in the late Bronze Age.  That is complete guesswork of course. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2011, 06:38:33 AM »

It is interesting that from early post-Roman times the term Cymri (from Combrogi) was used by the Welsh to refer to themselves and related peoples of north Britain. I think it meant something like fellow countrymen although the Welsh form of the word 'Briton' (Brython or something - sorry cant spell it) was only superseded around Norman times.  I think though that linguists have trashed the idea of any link to Cimbri   

Where as Welsh came from the Saxon word for foreigner :)

..and the term Gael comes from a 6th century AD (or thereabouts) Welsh word meaning 'wild men of the woods' or something like that.   
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rms2
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« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2011, 07:56:23 AM »

It is interesting that from early post-Roman times the term Cymri (from Combrogi) was used by the Welsh to refer to themselves and related peoples of north Britain. I think it meant something like fellow countrymen although the Welsh form of the word 'Briton' (Brython or something - sorry cant spell it) was only superseded around Norman times.  I think though that linguists have trashed the idea of any link to Cimbri   

Where as Welsh came from the Saxon word for foreigner :)

..and the term Gael comes from a 6th century AD (or thereabouts) Welsh word meaning 'wild men of the woods' or something like that.   

I am working from memory, but as I recall the Welsh had the term Gwyddel, which came to simply mean Irishman. I seem to remember that that Welsh word had a hand in the coining of the term Goidel.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2011, 09:34:10 AM »

It is interesting that from early post-Roman times the term Cymri (from Combrogi) was used by the Welsh to refer to themselves and related peoples of north Britain. I think it meant something like fellow countrymen although the Welsh form of the word 'Briton' (Brython or something - sorry cant spell it) was only superseded around Norman times.  I think though that linguists have trashed the idea of any link to Cimbri   

Where as Welsh came from the Saxon word for foreigner :)

..and the term Gael comes from a 6th century AD (or thereabouts) Welsh word meaning 'wild men of the woods' or something like that.   

I am working from memory, but as I recall the Welsh had the term Gwyddel, which came to simply mean Irishman. I seem to remember that that Welsh word had a hand in the coining of the term Goidel.

Yes that is the origin of the word Gael.  A lot of people wrongly think its linked to the word Gaul but early forms make it clear its from Goidel which comes from Welsh Gwyddel, a term meaning wild men of the woods or something like that.  Probably originally a pejorative term for Irish raiders/settlers in Wales in the post-Roman era. 
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« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2011, 01:59:27 PM »

my own feeling is that S116 spread at a time before individual IE languages had formed (perhaps spreading an undifferentiated IE) and that the separate languages or branches of IE evolved later through elite networks linking areas together but probably involved limited movement of yDNA.  So, as the spread of S116 and the evolution of separate languages were separate processes, I dont think there will ever be any sort of near correlation of S116 clades and languages.  Where there is some partial correlation I would feel its down to the same geographical factors effecting both rather than a causal link.   

IF (and its still a big IF) the clades were spread by the beakers, I have a hunch that the period where the contact networks began to move undifferentiated IE into the language groups we now know was probably the immediate post-beaker Early Bronze Age.  My feeling is that Celtic started to evolve c. 2000BC in the Unetice-Wessex-Armorican contact network which also included a range of other Early Bronze Age cultures in Ireland and the Low Countries.  I think in the meanwhile the areas of western Europe outside that network largely fell into an contact zone that included Atlantic and Med. Iberia, Med. France and Italy and in which evolved Italic type dialects including those of Italy, Ligurian and also Lusitanian and other related dialects in coastal Iberia. 

I suspect that that remained the case until c. 1200BC or thereabouts when parts of the Celtic speaking world started to intrude into the Italic world.  The early manifestation of that could have been the appearance of Urnfield influences from the east in north Italy, southern France and eastern Spain and also the linking of Atlantic Iberia with NW France, the isles etc through the Atlantic Bronze Age (which may have been a north to south thing rather than the other way round).  I think these could have been a two-pronged intrusion of Celtic into the Italic world.  The process of the intrusion of the Celtic world into the Italic world of course continued for centuries (until the Roman's reversed this trend) and was partial and not complete even in the Iron Age when classical writers noted the decline of the Ligurians. 
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« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2011, 01:24:59 PM »

I was speaking to an Irish language teacher who also has done celtic studies. He says that the word Gael comes from Gealge the name of the Irish language. This has been spelt various ways over time So Gael and all its variations just mean someone who speaks the language. How other people used the term may have just been a reference to where the language was most spoken. He also thought it likely that were more multi- lingual people than thought.
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