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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #100 on: May 15, 2011, 11:13:21 AM »

Do you think it is odd that there is no L21+ in northern Italy?

Perhaps there were no L21+ males with the Lombards nor the Franks?
Or perhaps the Lombards and Franks left no genetic trace of on the south side of the Alps.

The origin area of the Franks in the Germanic speaking part of the Low Countries is one with high U106 and low L21.  I wouldnt expect much L21 among the Franks.  The Lombards seem to have originated on the Lower Elbe too, hardly an L21 hotpsot.   
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OConnor
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« Reply #101 on: May 15, 2011, 12:32:01 PM »

if L21 was around France for 3000+ years I would suspect there should be more of them around the European continent. Not just in the N/W France and some down the Rhine.

If L21 was so successfull in the Isles what prevented them from spreading
east of the Rhine during Celtic times?

I doubt all the Frank's soldiers were from the Lower Elbe area. They were of many groups. They controlled all of France and Gernamy before entering Italy.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neustria
The territory of Neustria or Neustrasia, meaning "new [western] land", originated in 511, made up of the regions from Aquitaine to the English Channel, approximating most of the north of present-day France, with Paris and Soissons as its main cities (which is roughly the current size of England and Wales). Thus Neustria formed the western part of the kingdom of the Franks[1] under the rule of the Merovingian dynasty during the sixth to eighth centuries


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marches_of_Neustria#Norman_march
The Normans gradually expanded their territory and incorporated much of Neustria into it. When the margrave of Neustria became king in 987, the history of the march ended, to be replaced by the history of the various comital fiefs which were to rise in power within it.

So how does L21+ fit into the picture if they were in France for 3000 years?
Or could L21+ at large be from the Normans?

« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 01:00:29 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #102 on: May 15, 2011, 01:44:12 PM »

 I think the predominance of L21 in the Atlantic areas of the isles  is strong indirect evidence that L21 was the FIRST S116 clade to reach NW France.  It is almost impossible to think that the predominance of L21 in Ireland, Wales and western Scotland is not down to a similar predominance of L21 on the nearest part of the continent (NW France).  If there was a mix of clades in the adjacent part of the continent on the main sailing routes to the isles we would not have ended up with such a dominance of one clade among not only the Irish but the Welsh and western Scots too.  The source population of these peoples must have in all three cases been predominantly L21.  The simplest explanation is that NW France was, as it is today, high in L21 and this characteristic was passed onto the Atlantic parts of the isles.  Indeed, even today, NW France is the only identifiable area of L21 dominance on the continent.  I strongly suspect that that dominance is very ancient.  Certainly at the moment variance would support a model of L21 first occuring in north-central or east-central France, expanding as it passed east and north into NW France and passing onto the isles shortly afterwards. 

I do not expect much L21 was located east of the Rhine or south or east of the western Alps, an area which I think U152 largely sewed up in the early days when it existed but L21 SNP had not even occurred.  I think the peak areas of clades relate to the areas where each found themselves in a position to expand without much competition.  For U152 that was SE France, the Alps, Italy etc.  For L21 that was NW France and the isles.  Being 'first in' was an advantage that created a bedrock that was not generally altered much in later times.  Clearly there was later movement too but I think the basic pattern we see today was probably set in stone during the first spread of L11 into western Europe.  
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 01:54:18 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #103 on: May 15, 2011, 06:45:38 PM »

I think the predominance of L21 in the Atlantic areas of the isles  is strong indirect evidence that L21 was the FIRST S116 clade to reach NW France . . .  

I just wanted to emphasize that you are saying L21 was the first S116 (P312) clade in NW France and the British Isles and not that it was the first y haplogroup to arrive in those places.

People are easily confused and the old "Cro-Magnon R1b" bugaboo is still out there floating around the internet and in Oppenheimer's and Sykes' books.

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #104 on: May 15, 2011, 10:36:25 PM »

if L21 was around France for 3000+ years I would suspect there should be more of them around the European continent. Not just in the N/W France and some down the Rhine.

If L21 was so successfull in the Isles what prevented them from spreading
east of the Rhine during Celtic times?
I think, very simplistically, what blocked L21 to the east was brother U152 and to the northeast U106. Perhaps some forms of P312* blocked L21 to the south. That's it.

L21 did leak east into Germany, north into Norway and even south into Iberia. However, the clean path of least resistance (or of most desire) was northwest through France and across the channel.  What was going on?  Perhaps it was a secondary spread of farming, or perhaps the secondary products of agriculture revolution, or perhaps metalworking and Indo-European hegemony systems.

If the brothers and cousins had the same technologies, there may have been no use to go compete with them, but the Isles may have been wide open to dominance by the new practices.
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« Reply #105 on: May 15, 2011, 10:41:49 PM »

People are easily confused and the old "Cro-Magnon R1b" bugaboo is still out there floating around the internet and in Oppenheimer's and Sykes' books.
Rich, you'll love this. My understanding, via elite English academics, is that Oppenheimer has a new "paridigm" that the true Celtics are some of form of Hg I and, in keeping with his old view, R1b was long present in the Isles and along the Atlantic, coming out of Iberia, before the Celticism ensued.

I've purchased and read Oppenheimer before but I refuse to follow any of his new stuff unless someone can confirm that he is accounting for the configuration and variance among P312 subclades. His history is he is behind the times and he doesn't follow normal research practices of fully disclosing data, etc. I'm not saying he is a bad author, but I don't need to be a repeat customer.

Oh yes, we should also expect a new paper from our Russian-American friend on R1b. I haven't read it all through yet.  I appreciate that he analyzes our subclades, regardless of his conclusions. The more attention, the better, I think. The truth will be exposed with more data and lots of analysis.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 11:14:50 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #106 on: May 15, 2011, 10:56:59 PM »

I think the predominance of L21 in the Atlantic areas of the isles  is strong indirect evidence that L21 was the FIRST S116 clade to reach NW France.
I think you are right, but be careful. By the same general logic, Hg I should predominant along the Atlantic fringe of the Isles.

I'm not saying he is right, but he is smart. One of of Vince V's suppositions was that he thought U106 came first and P312 came and washed over U106's territories, taking over where U106 was a little sparse, but leaving U106 "hot spots" behind like sand castles washed over by the P312 wave.

If such a scenario could happen, it would only be natural for the P312 wave to wash all the way to the Atlantic.
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« Reply #107 on: May 16, 2011, 03:47:32 PM »

I wondered if France's L21 came directly from Norway/Scandinavian parts?

If Norway housed the older L21 sequences they could have brought them directly to (France)Normandy 9/10th century, making France's L21 look older then the Scot/Irish type which I suspected had left Scandinavia earlier 7or 8th century.

The plague of 1349 may have snuffed out some old L21 lines in Norway.
http://www.britannica.com/facts/5/188708/Black-Death-as-discussed-in-Norway.

It may seem a strange thought ?..but I guess we should ponder all ideas.



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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #108 on: May 16, 2011, 05:35:13 PM »

if L21 was around France for 3000+ years I would suspect there should be more of them around the European continent. Not just in the N/W France and some down the Rhine.

If L21 was so successfull in the Isles what prevented them from spreading
east of the Rhine during Celtic times?
I think, very simplistically, what blocked L21 to the east was brother U152 and to the northeast U106. Perhaps some forms of P312* blocked L21 to the south. That's it.

L21 did leak east into Germany, north into Norway and even south into Iberia. However, the clean path of least resistance (or of most desire) was northwest through France and across the channel.  What was going on?  Perhaps it was a secondary spread of farming, or perhaps the secondary products of agriculture revolution, or perhaps metalworking and Indo-European hegemony systems.

If the brothers and cousins had the same technologies, there may have been no use to go compete with them, but the Isles may have been wide open to dominance by the new practices.

I agree.  it a point I have raised before.  At the time of the expansion of L11 (which seems rapid) I can see no real way that with such a recent common ancestor that L11*. S116*, L21, U152 etc could have been anything other than virtually identical in terms of language, technology, social structure etc.  Noone possessed any advantage over anyone else in the L11 expansion. So, I think it really was important which clade was first on the spot in any given place.  It may have set the clade 'bedrock' in many areas. It seems U152 was a little older than L21 and even a couple of centuries of a head start would have been enough for L21 to have to seek expansion elsewhere at more of a remove from the S116 origin point than U152.  I suspect as per Myres that U106 exploded in NE Europe and would not have clashed with U152 for a long time.  I suspect the U152-U106 frontier in the Low Countries (basically along the Rhine) may date all the way back to a time where U106 moving west met U152 moving north up the Rhine.  I think L21 took a west turn and maybe prospered to be the first clade to push onto Atlantic France.  Personally I suspect the main L21 expansion was linked to the spread of farming into the Atlantic NW of France in the middle Neolithic, shortly before farming spread to the British Isles.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 05:38:03 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #109 on: May 16, 2011, 07:21:48 PM »

People are easily confused and the old "Cro-Magnon R1b" bugaboo is still out there floating around the internet and in Oppenheimer's and Sykes' books.
Rich, you'll love this. My understanding, via elite English academics, is that Oppenheimer has a new "paridigm" that the true Celtics are some of form of Hg I and, in keeping with his old view, R1b was long present in the Isles and along the Atlantic, coming out of Iberia, before the Celticism ensued.

I've purchased and read Oppenheimer before but I refuse to follow any of his new stuff unless someone can confirm that he is accounting for the configuration and variance among P312 subclades. His history is he is behind the times and he doesn't follow normal research practices of fully disclosing data, etc. I'm not saying he is a bad author, but I don't need to be a repeat customer.

The real problem with what Oppenheimer does is that he popularizes wrongheaded ideas.

He'll set the average person back several years with an idea like that.

Oh yes, we should also expect a new paper from our Russian-American friend on R1b. I haven't read it all through yet.  I appreciate that he analyzes our subclades, regardless of his conclusions. The more attention, the better, I think. The truth will be exposed with more data and lots of analysis.

I saw Dr. Klyosov on tv a few weeks ago (or maybe a month ago?). We get some Russian tv channels (my wife is Russian). I was watching the news broadcast Vremya (literally, "Time"), and there was Anatole Klyosov in a spot about early users of the worldwide web. I was startled when the segment started and it showed a man's hands at a computer keyboard typing something in English about L21!

My Russian is not that good, but he didn't really talk about genetics. The segment was about the internet.
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« Reply #110 on: May 19, 2011, 08:16:20 PM »

Got my copy of The Scots: A Genetic Journey, by Moffat and Wilson, in the mail today. I've just started reading but haven't gotten far yet.

Should be interesting.

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #111 on: May 20, 2011, 12:24:50 PM »

One thing I think that is being overlooked is that almost all L21 clades SNPs and clusters seem to be from the last 1000-2000 years if we believe the normal hobbiest dating.  The latter suggests L21 was perhaps a max  of 4500 years old.  We can at least look at this in terms of relative age of L21 and its main clusters.  This reveals for much of L21's existence (lets say half to two thirds) it was not forming any lasting clusters or producing surviving clade defining SNPs.  This suggests that for much of its existence L21 was not located in a society of the Niall type chiefdoms hogging reproduction.  This suggests to me that L21 after a quick spread through France and the isles was for a very long time located in a society that was not dominated by big hierarchical expanding royal lineages in the way that Irish, Scottish and Welsh society was in post-Roman/Medieval times.  When clustering did happen it was late and was restricted to the Celtic fringes of the isles (the exceptions being Medieval Iberian and Jewish clusters on the continent).

I think the significance of this is being overlooked.  Why for more than half of its existence did L21 not cluster and why was there a hiatus of SNPs between L21 and the AD period? Indeed, I think that a similar lack of clustering is also the case for U152 after its early days.  In short it seems that L21 for a considerable chunk of its existence was not located in a society of aggressive expanding lineages and this is probably true for U152.  I understand clustering is absent in L21 in France where it is oldest.  

PS It has only just occurred to me that the apparent lack of clustering or SNPs in L21 in the first half or more of its existence is evidence against an elite dominance scenario.  It would more suggest actual ordinary relatively non-hierarchical settlement of the first farmers type rather than a model of mega breeding of high status beaker lineages.  This to me is potentially evidence in favour of the early farmers model of the spread of L21.   
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 06:04:56 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #112 on: May 20, 2011, 06:06:21 PM »

Got my copy of The Scots: A Genetic Journey, by Moffat and Wilson, in the mail today. I've just started reading but haven't gotten far yet.

Should be interesting.



It has a lot of inconsistencies (especially regarding its interpretation of R1b in the isles) but it is a very interesting book with some new information about the distribution of clades in Britain. 
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rms2
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« Reply #113 on: May 20, 2011, 07:46:45 PM »

Got my copy of The Scots: A Genetic Journey, by Moffat and Wilson, in the mail today. I've just started reading but haven't gotten far yet.

Should be interesting.



It has a lot of inconsistencies (especially regarding its interpretation of R1b in the isles) but it is a very interesting book with some new information about the distribution of clades in Britain. 

I haven't gotten to the real meat of it yet. I'm still trudging through all the stuff about the French and Spanish cave paintings, the last Ice Age, exploding volcanoes, etc. I was hoping to read a lot on the train this evening, but it was so crowded I didn't get to sit down until I was nearly home.
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« Reply #114 on: June 16, 2011, 08:08:58 PM »

How many people actually take notice of these genetic studies?
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