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Author Topic: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest  (Read 9409 times)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2011, 08:40:41 AM »

I can see where the downstream clades are more likely with a thrall scenario.  Out of 35 members, I counted 3 L159+'s and 1 M222+ in the Yahoo project.  Also, I noticed 7 members are L159- and M222-, while 17 are just M222-, and 8 are undifferentiated L21+.  I think it's reasonable that a bronze age origin for some/maybe most Scandinavia L21 and a smaller back migration to Scandinavia of L21 thralls is possible.  I think the more these members can continue to test will give us a better picture.

I agree.

What we need is a specifically Scandinavian L21 subclade with very few or no British or Irish positives.

I'm not holding my breath waiting for that one though!
We have something close to this.  11-13 Combo Group B-1 which consists of a Norwegian and Luxembourg native. Although the GD's are not close, their P314.2+ puts them in a scattered and old category of people.
I don't want to overstate this. I didn't mean to imply that R-P314.2 has more Continental or Scandinavian people.

As far actually finding a group in Scandinavia larger than in the Isles, I don't think that is likely to be found by our DNA projects. The percentage testing in the Isles is so much greater than in Scandinavia, plus the population of the Isles is much larger (like about 65M to 20M).

If you took those two factors into account, we might find that Norse/Benelux 11-13 Group B-1 is as large or larger than the rest of P314.2. That's why I said we might "have something close."

Without a true representative sampling, I think this is the nature of what we'll find.

From a public perception standpoint, I find it interesting that most people would look at something like P314.2 and feel like the two non-Isles folks must have lineages back to the Isles somehow. After all, they are L21+, right?

Here is a different example that I don't see as so much different. R-L165, which is P312+ but L21-.  Look at the project:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L165Project/default.aspx?section=yresults

Looks pretty much like Scottish people and a few English, right? There is a Swedish guy at the bottom.

What does Ethnoancestry have to say about them:
Quote
S68 (L165): S68 defines a lineage in the S116* (P312*) paragroup. It appears to be a marker of Norse Viking ancestry in the British Isles and has been seen in Scandinavia, Orkney, Lewis, Skye, as well as in Fife.

http://www.ethnoancestry.com/S68.html

Ethnoancestry may be right. In fact, I think they probably are but I really don't know. However, the point is there is not much problem for people to accept that L165 is Scandinavian in origin. On the other hand P314.2 has a similar circumstance as far as Isles vs non-Isles but since it is L21+ I think most will perceive the non-Isles people must be from the Isles.

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OConnor
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« Reply #76 on: May 10, 2011, 09:38:40 AM »

I wondered about L159.2's spread since c400AD.

It is found in Scotland and S/E Ireland. With a couple in the Continental Rhine area, and a few from Norway. 1 in Mann. I don't know of any other People besides the Norse who have colonized these places.

I imagine that Scotland, like North America was recolonized at large.

How many L21 variations do we have in North America compared with..say..Northern France? If our ancestors came to North America before surnames, would we be trying to figure out how we got to Europe from here?





« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 09:39:19 AM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Heber
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« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2011, 11:40:58 AM »

Here is what Moffat and Wilson have to say about Norse haplogroups in Scotland:
"M17 was the first of a number of Norse Viking ancestry in the British Isles. S68 and S182 are smaller groups within the great M269 group and they appear to originate in Scandanavia and are mostly limited to the Northern and Western Isles of Scotland. S142 is more complex. It reaches its highest frequences in Scandanavia and is common in Denmark but quickly drops off further to the south. In Lewis there are many men with this particular marker, some in a group known as the Ultra-Norse - clearly one with Viking provenance".
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 11:42:03 AM by Heber » Logged

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R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2011, 05:34:30 PM »

I can see where the downstream clades are more likely with a thrall scenario.  Out of 35 members, I counted 3 L159+'s and 1 M222+ in the Yahoo project.  Also, I noticed 7 members are L159- and M222-, while 17 are just M222-, and 8 are undifferentiated L21+.  I think it's reasonable that a bronze age origin for some/maybe most Scandinavia L21 and a smaller back migration to Scandinavia of L21 thralls is possible.  I think the more these members can continue to test will give us a better picture.

I have thought for a long time that in terms of numbers in a cluster, one continental hit must be worth many time an isles hit due to the discrepancy of numbers in terms on European origins of people testing. I imagine that the proportion of isles testers to those from Norway must be totally overwhelming and one Norwegian hit must be worth what? 10 or 20 isles ones. Maybe that is an exaggeration but you know what I mean.

Alan

I agree.

What we need is a specifically Scandinavian L21 subclade with very few or no British or Irish positives.

I'm not holding my breath waiting for that one though!
We have something close to this.  11-13 Combo Group B-1 which consists of a Norwegian and Luxembourg native. Although the GD's are not close, their P314.2+ puts them in a scattered and old category of people.
I don't want to overstate this. I didn't mean to imply that R-P314.2 has more Continental or Scandinavian people.

As far actually finding a group in Scandinavia larger than in the Isles, I don't think that is likely to be found by our DNA projects. The percentage testing in the Isles is so much greater than in Scandinavia, plus the population of the Isles is much larger (like about 65M to 20M).

If you took those two factors into account, we might find that Norse/Benelux 11-13 Group B-1 is as large or larger than the rest of P314.2. That's why I said we might "have something close."

Without a true representative sampling, I think this is the nature of what we'll find.

From a public perception standpoint, I find it interesting that most people would look at something like P314.2 and feel like the two non-Isles folks must have lineages back to the Isles somehow. After all, they are L21+, right?

Here is a different example that I don't see as so much different. R-L165, which is P312+ but L21-.  Look at the project:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L165Project/default.aspx?section=yresults

Looks pretty much like Scottish people and a few English, right? There is a Swedish guy at the bottom.

What does Ethnoancestry have to say about them:
Quote
S68 (L165): S68 defines a lineage in the S116* (P312*) paragroup. It appears to be a marker of Norse Viking ancestry in the British Isles and has been seen in Scandinavia, Orkney, Lewis, Skye, as well as in Fife.

http://www.ethnoancestry.com/S68.html

Ethnoancestry may be right. In fact, I think they probably are but I really don't know. However, the point is there is not much problem for people to accept that L165 is Scandinavian in origin. On the other hand P314.2 has a similar circumstance as far as Isles vs non-Isles but since it is L21+ I think most will perceive the non-Isles people must be from the Isles.


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NealtheRed
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« Reply #79 on: May 10, 2011, 06:46:48 PM »

Looks pretty much like Scottish people and a few English, right? There is a Swedish guy at the bottom.

What does Ethnoancestry have to say about them:
Quote
S68 (L165): S68 defines a lineage in the S116* (P312*) paragroup. It appears to be a marker of Norse Viking ancestry in the British Isles and has been seen in Scandinavia, Orkney, Lewis, Skye, as well as in Fife.

http://www.ethnoancestry.com/S68.html

Ethnoancestry may be right. In fact, I think they probably are but I really don't know. However, the point is there is not much problem for people to accept that L165 is Scandinavian in origin. On the other hand P314.2 has a similar circumstance as far as Isles vs non-Isles but since it is L21+ I think most will perceive the non-Isles people must be from the Isles.



S68 is the group into which the main Clan MacLeod cluster falls. Clan history states they are of Norse origin - Leod is a son of Olaf the Black, King of Mann and the Isles.

However, I do not see how Ethnoancestry concluded that S68 is older in Scandinavia when we have only one Scandinavian fellow who is S68+. There are more Scottish and English folk who are S68+.

The same applies for S169/L159.2. Ethnoancestry claims it radiates from Ireland, when the most diverse haplotypes are actually from Argyll and the Inner Hebrides. It may be associated with the Laigin chieftains, but their signature looks far younger than the Highlanders. Moreover, one L159+ Norwegian has no close British matches; his only 37 marker match is another Norwegian.

I think the whole "Who is Norse and who is not?" is a marketing tool, and there is a double standard when it comes to L21 and S68.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 08:48:14 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #80 on: May 10, 2011, 11:43:30 PM »

Looks pretty much like Scottish people and a few English, right? There is a Swedish guy at the bottom.

What does Ethnoancestry have to say about them:
Quote
S68 (L165): S68 defines a lineage in the S116* (P312*) paragroup. It appears to be a marker of Norse Viking ancestry in the British Isles and has been seen in Scandinavia, Orkney, Lewis, Skye, as well as in Fife.

http://www.ethnoancestry.com/S68.html

Ethnoancestry may be right. In fact, I think they probably are but I really don't know. However, the point is there is not much problem for people to accept that L165 is Scandinavian in origin. On the other hand P314.2 has a similar circumstance as far as Isles vs non-Isles but since it is L21+ I think most will perceive the non-Isles people must be from the Isles.
However, I do not see how Ethnoancestry concluded that S68 is older in Scandinavia when we have only one Scandinavian fellow who is S68+. There are more Scottish and English folk who are S68+.
I have my doubts about their analysis, but keep in mind they are not necessarily looking at FTDNA projects like what I showed you.  They have their own consumer database and perhaps access to research database.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 11:44:10 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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OConnor
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« Reply #81 on: May 11, 2011, 01:02:52 PM »

I had mentioned before that perhaps some haplo types in Norway were lost
in the black death period.

Black Death in Norway:
The old Icelandic annals tell that the Black Death came to Bergen, Norway, in 1349 with a ship from England.
The annals say that 2/3 of Norway's population died.

The article goes on to say...

"This is probably a big exaggeration. The mortality in Norway can hardly have been more than 40-50%. Even this is high compared with an estimated mortality of approximately 33% in England and on the continent.")
http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/2197762

Could losing even 1/3 of the population have changed the genetic diversity of some haplo groups, perhaps even L21, in Norway?
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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llew_james
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« Reply #82 on: May 11, 2011, 07:01:20 PM »

Is R-L21 found in Wales?
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rms2
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« Reply #83 on: May 11, 2011, 07:16:18 PM »

Is R-L21 found in Wales?

Absolutely. Wales is a hotspot for L21.

I don't think I would be overstepping in saying it is probably the most frequent y haplogroup in Wales.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 07:16:38 PM by rms2 » Logged

llew_james
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« Reply #84 on: May 11, 2011, 07:42:58 PM »

Is R-L21 found in Wales?

Absolutely. Wales is a hotspot for L21.

I don't think I would be overstepping in saying it is probably the most frequent y haplogroup in Wales.

When would it have arrived?
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rms2
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« Reply #85 on: May 11, 2011, 07:48:13 PM »

Is R-L21 found in Wales?

Absolutely. Wales is a hotspot for L21.

I don't think I would be overstepping in saying it is probably the most frequent y haplogroup in Wales.

When would it have arrived?

Probably with the Beaker Folk sometime in the 3rd - 2nd millennium BC.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 07:49:07 PM by rms2 » Logged

llew_james
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« Reply #86 on: May 11, 2011, 08:05:36 PM »

Is R-L21 found in Wales?

Absolutely. Wales is a hotspot for L21.

I don't think I would be overstepping in saying it is probably the most frequent y haplogroup in Wales.

When would it have arrived?

Probably with the Beaker Folk sometime in the 3rd - 2nd millennium BC.

Wouldn't the diversity be greater if it was the 3rd millennium BC?
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rms2
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« Reply #87 on: May 11, 2011, 08:07:44 PM »

Is R-L21 found in Wales?

Absolutely. Wales is a hotspot for L21.

I don't think I would be overstepping in saying it is probably the most frequent y haplogroup in Wales.

When would it have arrived?

Probably with the Beaker Folk sometime in the 3rd - 2nd millennium BC.

Wouldn't the diversity be greater if it was the 3rd millennium BC?

No. I believe the age estimates (Mike can confirm or refute this) put British Isles L21 right in that ballpark.

French L21 is older.
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llew_james
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« Reply #88 on: May 11, 2011, 08:09:24 PM »

Is R-L21 found in Wales?

Absolutely. Wales is a hotspot for L21.

I don't think I would be overstepping in saying it is probably the most frequent y haplogroup in Wales.

When would it have arrived?

Probably with the Beaker Folk sometime in the 3rd - 2nd millennium BC.

Wouldn't the diversity be greater if it was the 3rd millennium BC?

No. I believe the age estimates (Mike can confirm or refute this) put British Isles L21 right in that ballpark.

French L21 is older.

They've aDNA to confirm this?
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rms2
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« Reply #89 on: May 11, 2011, 08:15:36 PM »



They've aDNA to confirm this?

No, of course not.

Do you know of ANY aDNA findings for ANY y haplogroup as far south on the tree as L21?

Right now haplotype variance is all we have.

Given the current state of ancient y-dna testing - we're lucky if we get any y-dna results at all, let alone SNPs - it may be quite some time before we get aDNA confirmation of anyone's theories.

The Beaker Folk theory could very well be wrong. But it seems to make the most sense right now, given what we know.
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Heber
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« Reply #90 on: May 12, 2011, 09:38:22 AM »

From The Scots, a Genetic Journey:

"Preliminary indications of the ancestry of the Norman families who came to Scotland are very interesting. Given that the Duchy of Normandy was founded by the Vikings, famously by Gongu-Hrolf, it might be assumed  that Norman and Norse descent could be mixed and difficult to disentangle. But in fact a brief survey of several Norman-French surnames in Scotland has shown up little or no M17 and it looks as though these people brought French bloodlines to Scotland rather than more Vikings.
Nevertheless, there are some wonderful discoveries to be made about lineages amongst the northern clans.

Quote
S68 is the group into which the main Clan MacLeod cluster falls. Clan history states they are of Norse origin - Leod is a son of Olaf the Black, King of Mann and the Isles.

"Clan McLeod traditionally recognised their Norse ancestry and an analysis of their DNA is rewarding. From a sample of 45 Mcleod Y chromosomes, almost half - 47 per cent - clearly show social selection at work in that they descend from one individual. If this statistic is projected amongst the total number of MacLeods, it means that almost 10,000 men are descended from this individual. Amongst the remaining 53 per cent, researchers have found only nine other lineages prescent, showing that MacLeod men married women who were unfailingly faithful to them!
However the MacLeods do not carry the M17 marker group. Theirs is a recently discovered subgroup labeled S68. It is found in Lewis, Harris and Skye, core MacLeod territory, but also in Orkney, Shetland and Norway, with a few examples in Sweden. Despite extensive screening S68 is very specifically located showing up only once in the east of Scotland and once in England. This is a classic pattern for a Viking marker in Britain but one much rarer than M17. MacLeods determinedly claim descent from a common name father, a Norse aristocrat called Ljot, a relative of Olaf, King of Mann. They are probably right to continue to claim that - science, for once, is supporting tradition".
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R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


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« Reply #91 on: May 12, 2011, 12:57:51 PM »

I thought Norse and Normans were from the same. Though some are  Danes, and others Norwegian and Swedes.

When it comes to tracing back to a named individual 1000 or so years ago in the Isles, I don't think the "science" is sound enough to call it scientific proof.
(just my opinion)



  
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 01:02:29 PM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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« Reply #92 on: May 12, 2011, 05:16:19 PM »

I thought Norse and Normans were from the same. Though some are  Danes, and others Norwegian and Swedes.
No.

A little depends on how you define things. I think it is a normal to consider the Norse to be Scandinavian people before the Christianization of Scandinavia. As for Normans, I think, at least from a perspective of the English, it would be the people who immigrated in during the 11th and 12th century from Normandy, which is in France.

Normandy was establish by Norsemen (Rollo et al) during the 10th century but they blended into some degree with the local people including any or all of these: The Gauls, the Bretons, the Flemish and the Franks. By the time some of the came to England, the people of Normandy were definitely mixed. The spoke French so there obviously was a heavy Romano-Gallic influence.

At least in my opinion, a Norman could have an older Norseman lineage, but could also have an older Gallic, Breton or Flemish lineage as well.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 05:17:03 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #93 on: May 12, 2011, 07:10:30 PM »

I don't know what the estimates are for Norse or Danish immigration to Normandy during the Viking Era, but, personally, I suspect it wasn't all that much. Probably a thin elite veneer over a much larger native Gallic population.

I know the Normandy Y-DNA Project is still pretty small, but thus far it looks pretty typical for northern France, i.e., there's not a lot of obvious Scandinavian stuff, no great numbers of I1s or R1as, for example. In fact, thus far, R-L21 is the most frequent y haplogroup.
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« Reply #94 on: May 12, 2011, 09:07:25 PM »

I don't know what the estimates are for Norse or Danish immigration to Normandy during the Viking Era, but, personally, I suspect it wasn't all that much. Probably a thin elite veneer over a much larger native Gallic population.

I know the Normandy Y-DNA Project is still pretty small, but thus far it looks pretty typical for northern France, i.e., there's not a lot of obvious Scandinavian stuff, no great numbers of I1s or R1as, for example. In fact, thus far, R-L21 is the most frequent y haplogroup.

This makes perfect sense. Moreover, one of the most prominent Breton lineages that came to Britain through the Norman invasion was the Stewart dynasty - which if I am not mistaken has been deduced to be R1b-L21 (via the Stewart DNA Project).
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« Reply #95 on: May 13, 2011, 06:14:27 PM »

Do you think it is odd that there is no L21+ in northern Italy?

Perhaps there were no L21+ males with the Lombards nor the Franks?
Or perhaps the Lombards and Franks left no genetic trace of on the south side of the Alps.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 06:15:01 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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llew_james
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« Reply #96 on: May 13, 2011, 07:02:52 PM »

I don't know what the estimates are for Norse or Danish immigration to Normandy during the Viking Era, but, personally, I suspect it wasn't all that much. Probably a thin elite veneer over a much larger native Gallic population.

I know the Normandy Y-DNA Project is still pretty small, but thus far it looks pretty typical for northern France, i.e., there's not a lot of obvious Scandinavian stuff, no great numbers of I1s or R1as, for example. In fact, thus far, R-L21 is the most frequent y haplogroup.

Is there any R-L21 in Scandinavia?
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rms2
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« Reply #97 on: May 13, 2011, 10:40:03 PM »

Do you think it is odd that there is no L21+ in northern Italy?

Perhaps there were no L21+ males with the Lombards nor the Franks?
Or perhaps the Lombards and Franks left no genetic trace of on the south side of the Alps.

There is some L21 in northern Italy, at least three thus far. That's not much, but it's not zero.
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rms2
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« Reply #98 on: May 13, 2011, 10:42:37 PM »

I don't know what the estimates are for Norse or Danish immigration to Normandy during the Viking Era, but, personally, I suspect it wasn't all that much. Probably a thin elite veneer over a much larger native Gallic population.

I know the Normandy Y-DNA Project is still pretty small, but thus far it looks pretty typical for northern France, i.e., there's not a lot of obvious Scandinavian stuff, no great numbers of I1s or R1as, for example. In fact, thus far, R-L21 is the most frequent y haplogroup.

Is there any R-L21 in Scandinavia?

Yes, quite a lot, especially in Norway.

http://tinyurl.com/3jcd3rp
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OConnor
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« Reply #99 on: May 14, 2011, 04:23:45 PM »

Thanks Rich. I thought there was only one L21+ from Sicily.


 


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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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