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OConnor
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« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2011, 01:11:15 PM »

I don't think it would be too hard to tell over time which came first?

Have any people upstream of L21 tested for L459 ?

« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 01:15:25 PM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Jdean
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« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2011, 01:42:46 PM »

I don't think it would be too hard to tell over time which came first?

Have any people upstream of L21 tested for L459 ?



Not very many unfortunately, I suspect we will have to wait for FTDNA to start looking for this in the Deep Clade test before we get the answer.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #52 on: May 08, 2011, 03:34:57 PM »

We have so many men who are R1b1a2 who have not deep clade tested yet, even though I let them know every time there is a sale on clade testing!!! Many of them have tested out to 67 markers, and I've weeded out the ones who will likely test U106+ and put them in a separate category. However, that only eliminated three out of over 70 gentlemen!! So, R-L21 may climb even higher.
Should I suggest to these men to JUST test L21? Big difference in price, and it may convince them. Thoughts anyone????

While deep clade testing is obviously preferrable, for those to whom the cost is an obstacle, certainly a test just for L21 is better than nothing. The statistics suggest that the great majority of R1b in Wales is going to be L21. Perhaps those who turn up negative for L21 might have their curiosity arroused sufficiently to then pursue further SNP testing.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2011, 07:25:33 PM »

Re:
Moffat and Wilson support the theory of L21 spread by Viking slave markets.



I thought we were past the "Irish Slave" thing?


I think the whole Viking slave idea, which some HG I fools have even suggested as the source of all R1b in Scandinavia, is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how that trade actually operated. I suspect they have the model which operated in the Americas in mind, where large numbers of slaves were imported as agricultural workers. There is simply no evidence to suggest the Vikings brought large numbers of slaves to Scandinavia, though this may have occurred in Iceland, where they were settling virgin land, much like the situation in the Americas. Generally the Vikings preferred to enslave young women, boys and people with valuable skills. Much of the trade operated within the British Isles, though it is known they traded slaves as far away as Spain. Slaves were more of a commodity to be sold or traded on than a source of forced labor to bring back to Scandinavia.
To anyone interested in the subject, I recommend the scholarly article  "The Slave Trade in Dublin, Ninth to Twelfth Centuries" by the Danish historian Paul Holm. It is available online, but I am rather pressed for time at the moment, so won't take time to provide a link. I'm sure it be easily located on Google.
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Heber
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« Reply #54 on: May 08, 2011, 08:08:10 PM »

Take the case of "Somerlad the Viking", the Gaelic chief who defeated the Vikings and established Clan Donald.
 "More than 50,000 Scottish  men, most of them with the surname MacDonald or its variants, are the direct decendants of Somerled.".

23% of a group tested carry the M17 Norse signature while others carry the M222 Celtic signature and S155 Pictish signature.

I’m probably missing something here but which of these is the identifying signature for Somerled carried by MacDonalds?

Jean,
I am travelling this week. I will take the book with me and try to get the quotes.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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Heber
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« Reply #55 on: May 08, 2011, 10:55:05 PM »

Take the case of "Somerlad the Viking", the Gaelic chief who defeated the Vikings and established Clan Donald.
 "More than 50,000 Scottish  men, most of them with the surname MacDonald or its variants, are the direct decendants of Somerled.".

23% of a group tested carry the M17 Norse signature while others carry the M222 Celtic signature and S155 Pictish signature.

I’m probably missing something here but which of these is the identifying signature for Somerled carried by MacDonalds?

Jean,
I am travelling this week. I will take the book with me and try to get the quotes.

"In the late 9th and early 10th century the kaleidoscope was twisted once more when some of the Celto-Norse peoples of the Hebrides migrated south. Because they spoke Gaelic but were descended from Vikings, they became known as the Gall-Gaidheil and they gave their name to Galloway".

"In the south of the land of MacLeods lay the wide lands of Clan Donald. Their name father was the first Lord of the Isles, Somerland , and once again, social selection counts 50,000 men withh the name MacDonald or its variants as his direct decendants. There is accurate data available from a large sample of 164 MacDonald Y chromosones and it contains a facinating twist on tradition. Somerled was known to chroniclers as 'Somerled the Viking' and it turns out that the large number in the sample decended from him - 23 per cent - carry a specific signature type within the Norse subgroup of M17. Somerled's own ancestors did indeed originate in Scandanavia. And the tradition lives on for Clan Donald have genotyped the chiefs of their various clan branches and they all carry the old Viking's marker.
Another large lineage cluster in the MacDonald sample has a very different origin. Around 12 per cent carry the classic R1b-Pict marker and it may be that they are descended from a powerful individual whose identity is now lost but who chose to join the Clan Doald and adopt the name. There are two mainland branches - McDonalds of Glengarry and Clan Ranald - and both have chiefs with the Somerled marker, but their followers may well be Pictish.

http://heritage.scotsman.com/heritage/Scotland39s-DNA-Who-do-you.6727434.jp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Isles






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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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OConnor
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« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2011, 01:15:18 AM »

I cannot find great numbers of group I in this MacDonald Project
http://dna-project.clan-donald-usa.org/DNAresults.htm

The Rib's look very sustantial
Why wouldn't they look to an R1b group to represent Somerled?

Do you think someone can actually prove they are a direct descendant
of Somerled ? Some of the literature is in reference to 2004.



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rms2
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« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2011, 02:25:57 PM »

The alleged Somerled haplotype is an R1a haplotype with the following markers in FTDNA order:

13    25    15    11    11    14    12    12    10    14    11    31    16    8    10    11    11    23    14    20    31    12    15    15    16

Of course, whether it actually belonged to Somerled himself depends on whether or not Bryan Sykes is right about it:

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/articles/norse.htm
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2011, 03:00:00 PM »

The alleged Somerled haplotype is an R1a haplotype with the following markers in FTDNA order:

13    25    15    11    11    14    12    12    10    14    11    31    16    8    10    11    11    23    14    20    31    12    15    15    16

Of course, whether it actually belonged to Somerled himself depends on whether or not Bryan Sykes is right about it:

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/articles/norse.htm

If Somerled himself is R1a1 or not appears to be just out of reach, since Clan Donald has not yet discovered a MacDougall with the haplotype - Dugall was one of the sons of Somerled, progenitor of Clan MacDougall. Clan Donald admits there may have been a non-paternal event, since Somerled is given a Connachta paternal ancestry.

I guess the Moffat/Wilson piece asserts L21 is a Gaelic marker in coastal Norway. I do not know if I buy that, but they underplayed S169's (L159.2) presence throughout the West coast of Scotland and Northern England. There are also at least six Norwegian men with the Irish Sea haplotype in the FTDNA databases. Can we now conclude that this many Gaels trekked to Norway?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2011, 03:08:08 PM »

I cannot find great numbers of group I in this MacDonald Project
http://dna-project.clan-donald-usa.org/DNAresults.htm

The Rib's look very sustantial
Why wouldn't they look to an R1b group to represent Somerled?



I believe it is because a number of men from Clan Donald (including the current chief, Lord Godfrey) and its cadet branches (MacAlister, Clan Ranald, MacDonnell of Glengarry, etc.) have inherited a distinct, R1a1 haplotype that is found in Norway.
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rms2
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« Reply #60 on: May 09, 2011, 03:08:45 PM »

. . .
I guess the Moffat/Wilson piece asserts L21 is a Gaelic marker in coastal Norway. I do not know if I buy that, but they underplayed S169's (L159.2) presence throughout the West coast of Scotland and Northern England. There are also at least six Norwegian men with the Irish Sea haplotype in the FTDNA databases. Can we now conclude that this many Gaels trekked to Norway?

Well, you know how they answer that: that the presence of L21 of any kind in Norway can be chalked up to the viking slave trade.

Absent a really thorough y-dna study of Norway (and perhaps of Scandinavia as a whole), how does one conclusively answer that?

As much as I do not like it, it's not a totally unreasonable theory. In fact, the presence of L159 in Norway only seems to lend credence to it.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2011, 03:33:46 PM »

. . .
I guess the Moffat/Wilson piece asserts L21 is a Gaelic marker in coastal Norway. I do not know if I buy that, but they underplayed S169's (L159.2) presence throughout the West coast of Scotland and Northern England. There are also at least six Norwegian men with the Irish Sea haplotype in the FTDNA databases. Can we now conclude that this many Gaels trekked to Norway?

Well, you know how they answer that: that the presence of L21 of any kind in Norway can be chalked up to the viking slave trade.

Absent a really thorough y-dna study of Norway (and perhaps of Scandinavia as a whole), how does one conclusively answer that?

As much as I do not like it, it's not a totally unreasonable theory. In fact, the presence of L159 in Norway only seems to lend credence to it.

I don't think it is impossible either, especially with downstream SNPs of L21, including L159. Yet there is too much L21 in Scandinavia in general to say all of it is from Scotland or Ireland.

To be honest, we can say the same thing about all currently discovered R1b-clades - they are more common in Britain/Ireland than in Scandinavia. Does this mean all Scandinavian R1b came from the British Isles?
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MHammers
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« Reply #62 on: May 09, 2011, 06:53:27 PM »

In terms of variance and age estimates the Scandinavian L21 is more likely to be a late neolithic to bronze age expansion.  If the Scandinavian L21 were largely descended from thralls, we should see a very low variance and a few distinct str clusters, and maybe a Scandinavian-specific snp subclade given that the Viking age was only about 900-1200 years ago.  I don't see any of that in the data so far.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2011, 07:52:15 PM »

In terms of variance and age estimates the Scandinavian L21 is more likely to be a late neolithic to bronze age expansion.  If the Scandinavian L21 were largely descended from thralls, we should see a very low variance and a few distinct str clusters, and maybe a Scandinavian-specific snp subclade given that the Viking age was only about 900-1200 years ago.  I don't see any of that in the data so far.

I agree and would go so far to say that L21 was involved with Norse settlement in coastal Scandinavia - along with R1a1.
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rms2
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« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2011, 08:00:54 PM »

. . .
I guess the Moffat/Wilson piece asserts L21 is a Gaelic marker in coastal Norway. I do not know if I buy that, but they underplayed S169's (L159.2) presence throughout the West coast of Scotland and Northern England. There are also at least six Norwegian men with the Irish Sea haplotype in the FTDNA databases. Can we now conclude that this many Gaels trekked to Norway?

Well, you know how they answer that: that the presence of L21 of any kind in Norway can be chalked up to the viking slave trade.

Absent a really thorough y-dna study of Norway (and perhaps of Scandinavia as a whole), how does one conclusively answer that?

As much as I do not like it, it's not a totally unreasonable theory. In fact, the presence of L159 in Norway only seems to lend credence to it.

I don't think it is impossible either, especially with downstream SNPs of L21, including L159. Yet there is too much L21 in Scandinavia in general to say all of it is from Scotland or Ireland.

To be honest, we can say the same thing about all currently discovered R1b-clades - they are more common in Britain/Ireland than in Scandinavia. Does this mean all Scandinavian R1b came from the British Isles?

The special problem L21 has is that it is massively present in Ireland, as well as hugely present in the rest of the British Isles. Therefore, it is kind of hard to make the argument that an L21 subclade like L159 that appears to be Irish (or at least some kind of Isles-ish) actually came from Scandinavia or is indigenous to Scandinavia.

It looks like it originated where it is most common and where it is most at home, surrounded by other kinds of L21, including thus-far undifferentiated R-L21*.

The presence of L159 in small amounts in Norway only makes it appear even more likely that the rest of the L21 also there came from somewhere in the British Isles.

I am not saying I like that scenario, but it makes a certain amount of sense.

Honestly, for the sake of our argument, we'd be better off if no L159 (or M222 or L226, etc.) were ever found in Scandinavia.
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« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2011, 08:05:50 PM »

In terms of variance and age estimates the Scandinavian L21 is more likely to be a late neolithic to bronze age expansion.  If the Scandinavian L21 were largely descended from thralls, we should see a very low variance and a few distinct str clusters, and maybe a Scandinavian-specific snp subclade given that the Viking age was only about 900-1200 years ago.  I don't see any of that in the data so far.

I agree. There were Beaker settlements in coastal SW Norway.

But the presence of younger subclades of L21 like L159, M222, L226, etc., in Norway weaken that argument, unfortunately. Those clades certainly appear to be specifically from the Isles.

Through a sort of guilt by association they implicate all of Scandinavian L21 in viking thralldom.

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« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2011, 08:51:22 PM »

I can see where the downstream clades are more likely with a thrall scenario.  Out of 35 members, I counted 3 L159+'s and 1 M222+ in the Yahoo project.  Also, I noticed 7 members are L159- and M222-, while 17 are just M222-, and 8 are undifferentiated L21+.  I think it's reasonable that a bronze age origin for some/maybe most Scandinavia L21 and a smaller back migration to Scandinavia of L21 thralls is possible.  I think the more these members can continue to test will give us a better picture.
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« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2011, 08:57:03 PM »

I can see where the downstream clades are more likely with a thrall scenario.  Out of 35 members, I counted 3 L159+'s and 1 M222+ in the Yahoo project.  Also, I noticed 7 members are L159- and M222-, while 17 are just M222-, and 8 are undifferentiated L21+.  I think it's reasonable that a bronze age origin for some/maybe most Scandinavia L21 and a smaller back migration to Scandinavia of L21 thralls is possible.  I think the more these members can continue to test will give us a better picture.

I agree.

What we need is a specifically Scandinavian L21 subclade with very few or no British or Irish positives.

I'm not holding my breath waiting for that one though!
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2011, 09:31:00 PM »

I can see where the downstream clades are more likely with a thrall scenario.  Out of 35 members, I counted 3 L159+'s and 1 M222+ in the Yahoo project.  Also, I noticed 7 members are L159- and M222-, while 17 are just M222-, and 8 are undifferentiated L21+.  I think it's reasonable that a bronze age origin for some/maybe most Scandinavia L21 and a smaller back migration to Scandinavia of L21 thralls is possible.  I think the more these members can continue to test will give us a better picture.

Well said. I think the L21 picture in Scandinavia is a bit more complex than sole thralldom. That sort of thing did happen, but I do not think it can account for every Scandinavian that belongs to such clusters.

Like Rich said, it complicates things. But again, L21 got a later start, so it is pretty much relegated to lower status. This is certainly true.
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« Reply #69 on: May 09, 2011, 09:32:55 PM »

I can see where the downstream clades are more likely with a thrall scenario.  Out of 35 members, I counted 3 L159+'s and 1 M222+ in the Yahoo project.  Also, I noticed 7 members are L159- and M222-, while 17 are just M222-, and 8 are undifferentiated L21+.  I think it's reasonable that a bronze age origin for some/maybe most Scandinavia L21 and a smaller back migration to Scandinavia of L21 thralls is possible.  I think the more these members can continue to test will give us a better picture.

I agree.

What we need is a specifically Scandinavian L21 subclade with very few or no British or Irish positives.

I'm not holding my breath waiting for that one though!

Even the S68 cluster is going to have more British members than Scandinavians. This just has to do with testing rates from the respective countries. I do, however, lend credence to Clan MacLeod's Norse founder theory.

EDIT: S68 is not an L21 cluster though
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« Reply #70 on: May 09, 2011, 11:18:31 PM »

Dr. David Faux has a very interesting analysis of the book and this point in particular on rootsweb.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-03/1299085388
I've read and re-read those posts.  I don't see anything of what I'd call an analysis. Has he broken the book down, or some piece of if it and assessed it somewhere? or just called upon excerpts from the book to support his views?
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« Reply #71 on: May 09, 2011, 11:20:13 PM »

I ran a calculation from the 23 L21 Scandinavian members who had 67 markers.  I used 6 members who were unclustered or in the 'Blanks' category.  This was the largest group.  The other 17 fell into various clusters with 1 or 2 per cluster.  As a whole, they seem to come from several branches and probably at different times.

The intraclade for the 'Blanks' members was G=101+/-15 or 1030 BC (1480-580 BC).  This fits well with the Nordic and Atlantic bronze age networks.  I thought these might be from some of the oldest lines of L21 there as most of the clusters Mike has identified are calculated younger than 2000 years old.  

There is one Norwegian 9919-B cluster member and the age for that cluster is 2923+/-419 yrs as calculated by Alexander Williamson.  So, that makes 7 or 30% that might have a connection to the Bronze age.  Maybe there is more to the thrall impact or the Vikings and Normans carried alot of L21 to the Isles and founded some of these clusters themselves.
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« Reply #72 on: May 09, 2011, 11:21:26 PM »

In terms of variance and age estimates the Scandinavian L21 is more likely to be a late neolithic to bronze age expansion.  If the Scandinavian L21 were largely descended from thralls, we should see a very low variance and a few distinct str clusters, and maybe a Scandinavian-specific snp subclade given that the Viking age was only about 900-1200 years ago.  I don't see any of that in the data so far.
This is exactly what I see.  There are some Norwegian L21 folks that could be related to 1200 year old clusters, but there are some who do not.  It may be a mix, but even if it there is a Norwegian L21 person who is related to to an Isles person in the last 1200 years that doesn't mean they are Viking thralls. They could be. That's absolutely true, but they could also be pre- or  post-Viking merchants, traderrs, or other migrants in historic periods.

The most noteworthy I can see is that the M222+ proportions are much higher in Ireland than in Scandinavia.  That indicates that if all or most of the Norwegian L21 folks are descendants of Viking thralls, they didn't come from Ireland nor probably the low lands of Scotland.
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« Reply #73 on: May 09, 2011, 11:32:03 PM »

I can see where the downstream clades are more likely with a thrall scenario.  Out of 35 members, I counted 3 L159+'s and 1 M222+ in the Yahoo project.  Also, I noticed 7 members are L159- and M222-, while 17 are just M222-, and 8 are undifferentiated L21+.  I think it's reasonable that a bronze age origin for some/maybe most Scandinavia L21 and a smaller back migration to Scandinavia of L21 thralls is possible.  I think the more these members can continue to test will give us a better picture.

I agree.

What we need is a specifically Scandinavian L21 subclade with very few or no British or Irish positives.

I'm not holding my breath waiting for that one though!
We have something close to this.  11-13 Combo Group B-1 which consists of a Norwegian and Luxembourg native. Although the GD's are not close, their P314.2+ puts them in a scattered and old category of people.
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« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2011, 11:44:47 PM »

Also consider the Anglo-Saxon period in England.   In the bronze age, their ancestors could have come from Scandinavia or at least Denmark.  The Germanic tribes did migrate south starting around 500 BC.  This could have also moved a lot of L21 out of Scandinavia and eventually into the Isles in the form of Anglo-Saxon migrants hundreds of years later.  Instead of thralls and vikings, this might be the event that had the larger population impact for L21.  
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 11:47:05 PM by MHammers » Logged

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