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jerome72
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« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2011, 12:36:51 AM »

Thank you very much for your encouragement ...
 I know this is not the forum for haplogroup I, but I'm also made maps for this haplogroup.
Promise! I have no made ​other maps!


I could not do map for I1 for the British Isles because the data is inaccessible on Ysearch (+ 1000 results)

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/Haplogroup%20I.jpg

« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 12:37:35 AM by jerome72 » Logged
GoldenHind
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« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2011, 03:14:48 PM »

Perhaps that explains it. I did have a look at the Wales Project at FTDNA, where there is a function which lists members by SNP results. There were about 15 P312* individuals and about 60 L21 people.
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susanrosine
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« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2011, 09:08:19 PM »

Perhaps that explains it. I did have a look at the Wales Project at FTDNA, where there is a function which lists members by SNP results. There were about 15 P312* individuals and about 60 L21 people.
The Wales project initially accepted anyone into the project; now it is limited to those who have proven their line to Wales (or strong family tradition). That means some of the men you counted haven't actually proven themselves back to Wales.
True count:
P312* 11
L21 51
M222 3

and, just for kicks,
35 I1 (all subgroups)
16 I2 (all subgroups)
9 U106 (all subgroups)

Susan (Wales project co-admin)
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Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2011, 07:39:24 AM »

I am of the opinion that the pre-Roman population of Britain varied hugely in terms of clade count and perhaps already at that time followed much of the present patterns.  Classical sources make it clear that there were considered to be physical variation among the Britons.  Not just Belgae.  There are also contrasts given between coast and interior and of course the famous descriptions of a tribe in SE Wales as being Iberian-like while the Caledonians of Scotland were described as having reddish hair and being large and more like Germans.  There was clearly signifiant variation in autosomal dna.  Moffat makes the interesting observation that NE Scotland (north of the area settled by the Anglo-Saxons and south of the area settled by Vikings) despite lack of attested pre-Medieval Germanic settlement, still has raised U106 and U152 levels, somewhat like the areas in the east and south of England where it is usually put down to Anglo-Saxons and Vikings.  This must cast doubt over the idea that U106 and U152 are all down to Germanic settlement in Britain.  There seem to be clear hints that the clade differences across Britain are partly down to pre-Roman times.  The Britons seem not to have been a homogenous block and in my opinion it is very silly to use modern Welsh as a proxy for the 'lost' Britons of England when trying to calculate the proportion of Anglo-Saxon input.  I would suggest (imperfect though it is) that north-eastern Scots may make a better baseline proxy for the 'lost' Britons of the south and east. 
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rms2
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« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2011, 08:41:20 AM »

I have to confess to some ignorance when it comes to NE Scotland as a separate region when it comes to Scottish history, but I do know that the Britons occupied SW Scotland, did they not? The kingdoms of Strathclyde and Rheged were British, and they were in the southwest. Gododdin in SE Scotland was also British, but it was defeated by the Anglo-Saxon Northumbrians and settled by them.

I thought NE Scotland was mostly Pictish.

What kind of frequencies for U152 and U106 in NE Scotland do Moffat and Wilson consider "raised"?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 08:42:14 AM by rms2 » Logged

Heber
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« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2011, 12:51:39 PM »

I have to confess to some ignorance when it comes to NE Scotland as a separate region when it comes to Scottish history, but I do know that the Britons occupied SW Scotland, did they not? The kingdoms of Strathclyde and Rheged were British, and they were in the southwest. Gododdin in SE Scotland was also British, but it was defeated by the Anglo-Saxon Northumbrians and settled by them.

I thought NE Scotland was mostly Pictish.

What kind of frequencies for U152 and U106 in NE Scotland do Moffat and Wilson consider "raised"?

I have just finished reading, The Scots a Genetic Journey, by Alistair Moffat and Dr. Jim Wilson.
It contains a number of useful Haplogroup maps associated with the four nations of Scotland, Gaels, Picts, Vikings and Saxons as well as the original Mesolithic settlers..
I have included relevant extracts below and a link to the maps.
M222
“As a result of a process coyly termed social selection, scientists have identified an old lineage in Ireland dating from around 400 to 500. Known as M222, it is astonishingly common. No less than 20 per cent of all Irish men carry it! Its distribution is heavily weighted to the north with 40 percent in Ulster, 30 per cent in Connaught and 10 – 15 percent in in Munster and Leinster. No less than a fifth of all Irish men are directly descended from one man who lived 1,500 years ago”.
“Given the distribution of the marker and its bias to Ulster and especially to men with the O’Neill and O’Donnell surnames, there exists a clear candidate. The O’Neill kindred dominated Irish history from the fifth to the tenth centuries and their founder was the High King known as Niall Noigiallach”.
“Lord  Turlough O’Donnell who died in 1423, carried on the family tradition with gusto. He had 14 sons and 59 male grandchildren.”
“More than 50,000 Scottish men, most of them with the surname MacDonald or its varients, are the direct decendents of Semerled. The first Lord of the Isles and founder of Clan Donald, he ruled the Hebrides and was King of the Isle of Man”.
“Did it (the M222 marker) cross the sea with the war bands of Fergus Mor mac Erc and his ancestors? There is uncompromising evidence that it did. More than 6 percent of all Scottish men carry M222, around 150,000 are direct decendents of Niall, the High King of the Irish. The frequency of the marker is very pronounced on the west with 9 per cent and less in the east with 3 per cent on the axis from Galloway to Shetland. It occurs very often amongst men with ancient Scottish surnames and whose family trees can, in some cases, be traced back over three centuries. Those in Scotland with the M222 marker are not recent immigrants and their high incidence and geographic spread indicate a large scale movement of people – probably mainly from Ulster and probably around AD 500”.

http://www.box.net/shared/gsbm92c2ri

The frequencies of the M222 Y chromosome group are shown across the British Isles using pie charts. Up to 3000 samples were used to create this map.
“Other Irish specific markers from the period around AD 500 can be found in Scotland and their presence reinforces a sense of colonization. S168 (M226) is relatively rare and strongly concentrated around the River Shannon where it is now found in Tipperary and Limerick. This was once the territory of the Dalcassian clans, the decendents of the great High King Brian Boru. S169 (L159.2) is most common in Leinster, the lands of the Lagin clans, and it too is found in Scotland,  especially amongst men with the surnames Beattie and Ferguson”.
“The genetic and political divide between incomers and natives also had cultural facets. The Dalriadans spoke Irish Gaelic, Q-Celtic, while the Picts spoke P-Celtic and it appears that the languages were not mutually intelligible. When St Columba attempted to bring the Word of God to the Picts, it had to be translated”.
“A marker has been identified that is essentially unique to Scotland and rarely found elsewhere. It is known as R1b-str47 or R1b-Pict and around 10% of Scottish men carry it. In our towns and villages 250,000 Picts are quietly going about their daily lives. The distribution of the marker broadly matches the Pictish territory and where later incursions such as Dalriada Gaels and the Vikings overlaid it, the numbers are diluted.It is well represented in the east of Scotland above the Forth but much less so in Northern and Western Isles. R1b-Pict is at least 3,000 years old and possibly even older and is a subgroup of S145 (L21)”.

http://www.box.net/shared/b5x3szygr4

http://www.box.net/shared/dk4zyrft7p

Clockwise from left to right:
The frequencies of the S28 (U152) 'Eastern side' Y or chromosome group are shown across the British Isles using pie charts. Up to 3000 samples were used to create this map.
The frequencies of the S145-str47 ‘Pictish’ Y chromosome group are shown across the British Isles using pie charts. Up to 3000 samples were used to create this map.
The frequencies of the M17 'Viking' Y chromosome group are shown across the British Isles using pie charts. Up to 3000 samples were used to create this map.
“In Orkney, 20 per cent of men carry carry the Y chrosomone marker R1a-M17 and its frequency in Norway is 30 per cent. It is much rarer in the south and west of Scotland and England reaching about 4 per cent, and it looked a likely candidate for the Norse or Viking marker”.
“Now it appears that S145 (L21) also travelled along these (Atlantic) trading routes. The marker probably originated in southern France or northern Iberia and people carrying it came to Ireland and western Scotland. This was not a wave of migration but a series of small movements over time, probably in the millennium between 2,500 BC and 1,500 BC”.
“Also more common in eastern Britain, S28 (U152) originated in the lands around the Alps, south-east France and northern Italy and then spread across what is now Germany. Because of the relative imprecision of the Y-chromosome molecular clock, geneticists have occasionally urged precaution in comparing these samples of modern populations”.
“In addition to the M284 marker, another lineage found its way to Scotland from the Ice Age Refuges and the painted caves in southern France and northern Spain. M26 accounts for only 12,000 or so Scots men, around 0.5 per cent of the total population, and is one of the oldest lineages still to be found. M423 has a similar frequency to M26 with around 20,000 Scots men carrying the marker and it is another founding lineage. Those Scots who carry the M423 marker are most certainly descended from the survivors of Doggerland”.

Dr Jim Wilson concludes the book by stating:
“There is a new revolution taking place in genetics whereby the DNA of entire genomes can be read cheaply – all six billion letters of the genetic code. Once we make sense of all this information, it will provide a level of detail far beyond that which we have today, potentially identifying the very fjord a Viking set sail from, and building a family tree for all Scots and all mankind. My six billion letter sequence was completed last week and we will begin the analysis tomorrow.”
I would agree and look forward to future developments.


« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 01:25:45 PM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



GoldenHind
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« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2011, 02:26:44 PM »

Perhaps that explains it. I did have a look at the Wales Project at FTDNA, where there is a function which lists members by SNP results. There were about 15 P312* individuals and about 60 L21 people.
The Wales project initially accepted anyone into the project; now it is limited to those who have proven their line to Wales (or strong family tradition). That means some of the men you counted haven't actually proven themselves back to Wales.
True count:
P312* 11
L21 51
M222 3

and, just for kicks,
35 I1 (all subgroups)
16 I2 (all subgroups)
9 U106 (all subgroups)

Susan (Wales project co-admin)

Very interesting. Thanks very much.  Some observations:
L21 is the largest HG, followed by I1, which some people like to claim is Germanic.
The ratio of L21 to P312* is nearly 5 to 1.
P312* only slightly outnumbers U106.
I don't know that I would read too much into all this, other than to reinforce my contention that attaching strict ethnic labels to the various HGs is problematic.
Also I agree with Alan's argument that Wales is not an accurate proxy for the entire population of England before the Anglo-Saxons.
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rms2
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« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2011, 04:18:27 PM »

Re Heber's maps from Moffat and Wilson above.

Honestly, I don't see any startling pattern for U152. Its distribution doesn't seem to follow any historical pattern that I know of. You can say it's pretty scarce in Wales and Ireland, but it certainly doesn't follow any "viking" pattern, as was once proposed pretty vocally on Rootsweb and other venues.

In fact, U152 seems to mirror the R1b-STR47 "Pictish" thing fairly closely, but is more frequent in southern England than STR47 is. I'm guessing "STR47" is one of John McEwan's old cluster formulations.

The similarity between U152 in Scotland and STR47 there makes me think that perhaps U152 was the vector for the introduction of P-Celtic from the Continent sometime during the Iron Age. It never caught on in Ireland, and you can easily see why, if it was mainly U152 immigrants who carried it. Perhaps it only caught on in Wales via trade and cultural contacts, since Wales is on the main British island.

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rms2
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« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2011, 04:23:59 PM »

Re Heber's maps from Moffat and Wilson above.

Honestly, I don't see any startling pattern for U152. Its distribution doesn't seem to follow any historical pattern that I know of. You can say it's pretty scarce in Wales and Ireland, but it certainly doesn't follow any "viking" pattern, as was once proposed pretty vocally on Rootsweb and other venues.

In fact, U152 seems to mirror the R1b-STR47 "Pictish" thing fairly closely, but is more frequent in southern England than STR47 is. I'm guessing "STR47" is one of John McEwan's old cluster formulations.

The similarity between U152 in Scotland and STR47 there makes me think that perhaps U152 was the vector for the introduction of P-Celtic from the Continent sometime during the Iron Age. It never caught on in Ireland, and you can easily see why, if it was mainly U152 immigrants who carried it. Perhaps it only caught on in Wales via trade and cultural contacts, since Wales is on the main British island.


Here's another thing. Given Moffat and Wilson's dating for the arrival of L21 (S145) from "southern France or northern Iberia", are they saying it was of Beaker origin? Or are they still attributing it to "Basque fishermen", as was once done for all of "R1b" in the British Isles?

Honestly, I suspect they're doing the latter, deriving L21 from the Basque country, but I could be wrong.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 04:24:41 PM by rms2 » Logged

OConnor
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« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2011, 09:18:38 PM »

I suspect there was a lots of Norse in Southern and Northern Scotland. All the way to the Isle of Mann, I see no reason why some of these people couldn't be L21. I think they ate all the Picts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Mann_and_the_Isles

And the kingdom of Dublin and then Cork, and Wexford.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_Dublin

A Norse shipyard has been found in Skye Scotland.
http://www.pasthorizons.com/index.php/archives/05/2011/viking-shipyard-found-on-scottish-island

I should add that I don't know where L21 is oldest.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 09:49:53 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Heber
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« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2011, 10:52:27 PM »



Here's another thing. Given Moffat and Wilson's dating for the arrival of L21 (S145) from "southern France or northern Iberia", are they saying it was of Beaker origin? Or are they still attributing it to "Basque fishermen", as was once done for all of "R1b" in the British Isles?

Honestly, I suspect they're doing the latter, deriving L21 from the Basque country, but I could be wrong.
[/quote]

Rich,

They specifically link L21 to the Atlantic Bell Beakers.

"DNA sampling reinforces an intertwined sense of two distinct seaborne trading networks in Britain and Ireland. In the west the emphatic presence of S145 (L21) appears to mirror mercantile contact. Distinctive pots known as maritime bell beakers were first made in the region oaround the River Tagus in Portugal and the tradition of bows and arrows in graves may also have originated there. By 2,500 BC, this cultural package had spread north to the Morbihan area of southern Brittany and the mouth of the Loire. This area became a centre of production and exchange not only for bell beakers but other valuable items such as axes, flints, daggers and lance heads. From Morbihan/Loire the beakers filtered down the French river valleys to the Meditteranean coast and eastwards to northern Italy. To the north, contacts were made with Wessex, Ireland and Atlantic Scotland".
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



GoldenHind
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« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2011, 11:03:51 PM »

Re Heber's maps from Moffat and Wilson above.

Honestly, I don't see any startling pattern for U152. Its distribution doesn't seem to follow any historical pattern that I know of. You can say it's pretty scarce in Wales and Ireland, but it certainly doesn't follow any "viking" pattern, as was once proposed pretty vocally on Rootsweb and other venues.

In fact, U152 seems to mirror the R1b-STR47 "Pictish" thing fairly closely, but is more frequent in southern England than STR47 is. I'm guessing "STR47" is one of John McEwan's old cluster formulations.

The similarity between U152 in Scotland and STR47 there makes me think that perhaps U152 was the vector for the introduction of P-Celtic from the Continent sometime during the Iron Age. It never caught on in Ireland, and you can easily see why, if it was mainly U152 immigrants who carried it. Perhaps it only caught on in Wales via trade and cultural contacts, since Wales is on the main British island.



I don't have the Moffat & Wilson book, but I have read sufficient discussion of it that I believe I can explain his reasoning, at least concerning U106. It has long been observed that U106 has an east/west cline in Britain, being far more common in the east then the west. The standard explanation for this has been that this was a result of the Anglo-Saxon invasions and later incursions from Scandinavia. Moffat and Wilson say however that this same cline exists in northeast Scotland in an area where the Germanics never settled- an area north of Anglian settlement but south of that of the Vikings. Thus they propose that the cline must represent settlement patterns which began in prehistoric times. Needless to say, this didn't go over well with those that want to maintain the Germanic purity of U106. They argued that U106 in that area must be due to Flemish and Norman settlement in the middle ages. I believe they have a similar opinion regarding U152, which must have been very distressing to a certain individual.
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susanrosine
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« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2011, 11:08:24 PM »

Perhaps that explains it. I did have a look at the Wales Project at FTDNA, where there is a function which lists members by SNP results. There were about 15 P312* individuals and about 60 L21 people.
The Wales project initially accepted anyone into the project; now it is limited to those who have proven their line to Wales (or strong family tradition). That means some of the men you counted haven't actually proven themselves back to Wales.
True count:
P312* 11
L21 51
M222 3

and, just for kicks,
35 I1 (all subgroups)
16 I2 (all subgroups)
9 U106 (all subgroups)

Susan (Wales project co-admin)

Very interesting. Thanks very much.  Some observations:
L21 is the largest HG, followed by I1, which some people like to claim is Germanic.
The ratio of L21 to P312* is nearly 5 to 1.
P312* only slightly outnumbers U106.
I don't know that I would read too much into all this, other than to reinforce my contention that attaching strict ethnic labels to the various HGs is problematic.
Also I agree with Alan's argument that Wales is not an accurate proxy for the entire population of England before the Anglo-Saxons.
Absolutely do NOT use Wales as a proxy for the population of England before the Anglo-Saxons!! Oh my goodness!!!!  That would be silly, as Alan put it.
What our Wales project has been trying to do for several years now is gather Y-DNA from men who descend from the ancient Welsh pedigrees. Most of these pedigrees have been researched intensely, and are considered to be very accurate, at least as far back as 300-600 A.D.
Once this goal has been accomplished (one of these decades, SIGH) it will still only tell you the makeup of Wales at that time; not the makeup of England, Scotland, Ireland or Denver, Colorado   :-)  
Our Wales project currently has a man who has traced his line back to 1047. He is Hg I1.
We have another who traced back to a Norman invasion ancestor (1192); also Hg I1.
There is an R-L21 man going back to the 1200s.
There is a P-312* man going back to 1150.
We have a Picton man, obviously not a Welsh name, but came to Wales by 1260. He was the first one I believe to test positive for U106 downstream SNPs L48 and L47 and L44 and L46. But, he's not true ancient Welsh.
I will, of course, announce with great happiness anytime we do get a man tracing back anytime before 1066, once we get him deep clade tested.
We have so many men who are R1b1a2 who have not deep clade tested yet, even though I let them know every time there is a sale on clade testing!!! Many of them have tested out to 67 markers, and I've weeded out the ones who will likely test U106+ and put them in a separate category. However, that only eliminated three out of over 70 gentlemen!! So, R-L21 may climb even higher.
Should I suggest to these men to JUST test L21? Big difference in price, and it may convince them. Thoughts anyone????
Logged

Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
susanrosine
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« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2011, 11:12:47 PM »

Re Heber's maps from Moffat and Wilson above.

Honestly, I don't see any startling pattern for U152. Its distribution doesn't seem to follow any historical pattern that I know of. You can say it's pretty scarce in Wales and Ireland, but it certainly doesn't follow any "viking" pattern, as was once proposed pretty vocally on Rootsweb and other venues.

In fact, U152 seems to mirror the R1b-STR47 "Pictish" thing fairly closely, but is more frequent in southern England than STR47 is. I'm guessing "STR47" is one of John McEwan's old cluster formulations.

The similarity between U152 in Scotland and STR47 there makes me think that perhaps U152 was the vector for the introduction of P-Celtic from the Continent sometime during the Iron Age. It never caught on in Ireland, and you can easily see why, if it was mainly U152 immigrants who carried it. Perhaps it only caught on in Wales via trade and cultural contacts, since Wales is on the main British island.



I don't have the Moffat & Wilson book, but I have read sufficient discussion of it that I believe I can explain his reasoning, at least concerning U106. It has long been observed that U106 has an east/west cline in Britain, being far more common in the east then the west. The standard explanation for this has been that this was a result of the Anglo-Saxon invasions and later incursions from Scandinavia. Moffat and Wilson say however that this same cline exists in northeast Scotland in an area where the Germanics never settled- an area north of Anglian settlement but south of that of the Vikings. Thus they propose that the cline must represent settlement patterns which began in prehistoric times. Needless to say, this didn't go over well with those that want to maintain the Germanic purity of U106. They argued that U106 in that area must be due to Flemish and Norman settlement in the middle ages. I believe they have a similar opinion regarding U152, which must have been very distressing to a certain individual.
I agree that U106 came before the Germanic people and goes back to ancient times. Just my two cents worth.
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Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
Heber
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« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2011, 11:20:54 PM »

I suspect there was a lots of Norse in Southern and Northern Scotland. All the way to the Isle of Mann, I see no reason why some of these people couldn't be L21. I think they ate all the Picts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Mann_and_the_Isles

And the kingdom of Dublin and then Cork, and Wexford.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_Dublin

A Norse shipyard has been found in Skye Scotland.
http://www.pasthorizons.com/index.php/archives/05/2011/viking-shipyard-found-on-scottish-island

I should add that I don't know where L21 is oldest.


Moffat and Wilson support the theory of L21 spread by Viking slave markets.

"Dublin was founded in the 840s first as a longphort and then it developed as a busy slave market. When sea lords raided, the more sober and business like would not allow the younger and fitter people they captured to be slaughtered. Instead, they herded them on to the longships and took them to Dublin. or elsewhere for sale. In 850, a hugh fleet of Dublin Vikings, perhaps 200 ships, sailed into the Firth of Clyde and laid siege to Dumbarton Rock".
"The  Anglo-Saxon word for a native Briton was wealh (Welsh is derived from it) and it was also used to mean a slave".
"The discovery of both the pan-British Isles marker of S145 (L21) and the Irish and Scottish M222 in coastal Norway has suggested a remnant legacy of slaves shipped back to the Viking homeland".

What happened to the Picts?

"In 839, a battle was fought in Strathearn that may have spelled the end of the Pictish kingdom south of the Mounth. A great force of Vikings slaughtered the Pictish nobility in such numbers that a vacuum allowed Kenneth McAlpin to establish himself in Pictland in the aftermath. He may not have been the first Dalriadian king to rule east of Drumalban but all Scottish kings are numbered from him and, with his accession, a process of unification did appear to begin in earnest".
« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 11:39:22 PM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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Heber
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« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2011, 02:33:08 AM »

Re Heber's maps from Moffat and Wilson above.

Honestly, I don't see any startling pattern for U152. Its distribution doesn't seem to follow any historical pattern that I know of. You can say it's pretty scarce in Wales and Ireland, but it certainly doesn't follow any "viking" pattern, as was once proposed pretty vocally on Rootsweb and other venues.

In fact, U152 seems to mirror the R1b-STR47 "Pictish" thing fairly closely, but is more frequent in southern England than STR47 is. I'm guessing "STR47" is one of John McEwan's old cluster formulations.

The similarity between U152 in Scotland and STR47 there makes me think that perhaps U152 was the vector for the introduction of P-Celtic from the Continent sometime during the Iron Age. It never caught on in Ireland, and you can easily see why, if it was mainly U152 immigrants who carried it. Perhaps it only caught on in Wales via trade and cultural contacts, since Wales is on the main British island.



I don't have the Moffat & Wilson book, but I have read sufficient discussion of it that I believe I can explain his reasoning, at least concerning U106. It has long been observed that U106 has an east/west cline in Britain, being far more common in the east then the west. The standard explanation for this has been that this was a result of the Anglo-Saxon invasions and later incursions from Scandinavia. Moffat and Wilson say however that this same cline exists in northeast Scotland in an area where the Germanics never settled- an area north of Anglian settlement but south of that of the Vikings. Thus they propose that the cline must represent settlement patterns which began in prehistoric times. Needless to say, this didn't go over well with those that want to maintain the Germanic purity of U106. They argued that U106 in that area must be due to Flemish and Norman settlement in the middle ages. I believe they have a similar opinion regarding U152, which must have been very distressing to a certain individual.

Dr. David Faux has a very interesting analysis of the book and this point in particular on rootsweb.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-03/1299085388
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R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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OConnor
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« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2011, 07:29:19 AM »

Re:
Moffat and Wilson support the theory of L21 spread by Viking slave markets.



I thought we were past the "Irish Slave" thing?

What people take slaves and then let them breed?
Or is L21 in Scandinavia sourced from a few escaped slaves?

Maybe Moffat and Wilson think the Norse had little slave villages where the slaves could go home to the wife and kids from a hard day at the quarry? :))

aaaaaaaa

"An analysis of DNA from a Viking gravesite near a 1000 year-old church in southern Greenland shows that those buried there had strong Celtic bloodlines.
Danish archaeologists are currently conducting the first regional study of southern Greenland's original settlers, whose colonies date back to the year 985. The skeletons disinterred outside the old church also date back to just a few years after that period"

"Although the DNA analysis reveals the inhabitants had Celtic blood in their veins, Arneborg said there was no question that the settlers were Nordic.
'Everything these people did -- their culture, means of nourishment and so on -- was clearly Scandinavian"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2478281/posts

I'm not saying the ancient remains were L21+.
I do wonder how much L21 will be found in Scandinavia.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 08:22:49 AM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2011, 08:51:21 AM »


Dr. David Faux has a very interesting analysis of the book and this point in particular on rootsweb.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-03/1299085388

First off, Faux was wrong. U152 does NOT "twin" with R1a. Look at the maps. If it "twins" with anything, it is the so-called "Pictish" STR47.

Secondly, "Dr." Faux is a psychologist. That's fine, but using "Dr." in front of his name in a genetic context gives him more authority than he should have. He is not an authority on genetics.
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« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2011, 09:21:51 AM »

Moffat and Wilson support the theory of L21 spread by Viking slave markets.

"Dublin was founded in the 840s first as a longphort and then it developed as a busy slave market. When sea lords raided, the more sober and business like would not allow the younger and fitter people they captured to be slaughtered. Instead, they herded them on to the longships and took them to Dublin. or elsewhere for sale. In 850, a hugh fleet of Dublin Vikings, perhaps 200 ships, sailed into the Firth of Clyde and laid siege to Dumbarton Rock".
"The  Anglo-Saxon word for a native Briton was wealh (Welsh is derived from it) and it was also used to mean a slave".
"The discovery of both the pan-British Isles marker of S145 (L21) and the Irish and Scottish M222 in coastal Norway has suggested a remnant legacy of slaves shipped back to the Viking homeland".

What happened to the Picts?

"In 839, a battle was fought in Strathearn that may have spelled the end of the Pictish kingdom south of the Mounth. A great force of Vikings slaughtered the Pictish nobility in such numbers that a vacuum allowed Kenneth McAlpin to establish himself in Pictland in the aftermath. He may not have been the first Dalriadian king to rule east of Drumalban but all Scottish kings are numbered from him and, with his accession, a process of unification did appear to begin in earnest".


I wonder about much of this sort of thing. I doubt seriously the bit about the etymology of the Anglo-Saxon word wealh. I believe scholars have traced the etymology of that word and its cognates in other Germanic languages (like Walloon, for example) to the old Germanic name for the Celtic tribe the Volcae.

Where is the evidence that it ever meant "slave"?

Just because someone writes or says something does not make it true.

Secondly, it is doubtful the vikings could have hauled enough male slaves back to Scandinavia to produce the sort of frequency of L21 we are seeing in Norway and other Scandinavian countries.

Medieval Scandinavia did not have the sort of plantation economy that needed or could have supported large numbers of slaves. In fact, a couple of the reasons advanced for the viking phenomenon itself are over-population and lack of arable land.

Gwyn Jones, an acknowledged expert on the vikings, says in his book, The Vikings: A History, that the prime slave-hunting ground of the vikings was the Baltic sea coast, which is hardly swarming with L21. That makes sense because the Baltic is a Scandinavian sea. The vikings could grab people there and be back in Scandinavia quickly. Hauling slaves all the way from the British Isles would have been much more difficult, although certainly not impossible.

Notice also that the vikings sold their British and Irish captives at slave markets in Ireland. They didn't haul them back to Scandinavia.

I would guess that the slaves who made it back to Scandinavia were, ninety-nine times out of one hundred, good-looking females.

Let's suppose for a minute or two that the L21 in Scandinavia mostly got there in the bodies of British and Irish thralls. Well then, what of the U152 and U106 - and even some of the I1 - in Scandinavia? Did the vikings y-dna test their captives, culling all but the L21s? There is apparently far far less U152 than L21 in Scandinavia. It is found in much larger quantities in Britain, ergo, its presence in Scandinavia must be chalked up to the viking slave trade.  

There is plenty of U106 in England, particularly in eastern England where the Danes held sway. No doubt that means much, if not all, of the U106 in Denmark and elsewhere in Scandinavia got there as a consequence of the viking slave trade.

I would also like to add, by way of balance, that the vikings got their arses handed to them a number of times by predominantly Celtic forces. Like when King Rhodri Mawr of Gwynedd in Wales defeated the Danes in 856 and killed their king, Gorm.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 09:42:24 AM by rms2 » Logged

OConnor
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« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2011, 11:14:21 AM »

Wales has seen much of Scandinavians.
http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/welsh.shtml

Today there are Norse placenames in Wales.
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Heber
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« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2011, 11:47:09 AM »

Re:
Moffat and Wilson support the theory of L21 spread by Viking slave markets.



I thought we were past the "Irish Slave" thing?

What people take slaves and then let them breed?
Or is L21 in Scandinavia sourced from a few escaped slaves?

Maybe Moffat and Wilson think the Norse had little slave villages where the slaves could go home to the wife and kids from a hard day at the quarry? :))

aaaaaaaa

"An analysis of DNA from a Viking gravesite near a 1000 year-old church in southern Greenland shows that those buried there had strong Celtic bloodlines.
Danish archaeologists are currently conducting the first regional study of southern Greenland's original settlers, whose colonies date back to the year 985. The skeletons disinterred outside the old church also date back to just a few years after that period"

"Although the DNA analysis reveals the inhabitants had Celtic blood in their veins, Arneborg said there was no question that the settlers were Nordic.
'Everything these people did -- their culture, means of nourishment and so on -- was clearly Scandinavian"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2478281/posts

I'm not saying the ancient remains were L21+.
I do wonder how much L21 will be found in Scandinavia.


DNA studies demonstrate significant admixture, mtDNA and Y Chrosomone between Vikings and Gaels.

The Icelanders are one of the most studied populations in human genetics. According to historical and archaeological sources, Iceland was settled roughly 1100 years ago by a mixture of people that originated primarily from Scandinavia and the British Isles. Studies of mtDNA variation indicate that contemporary Icelanders trace about 37% of their matrilineal ancestry to Scandinavia, with the remainder coming from the populations of Scotland and Ireland.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2613751/

Take the case of "Somerlad the Viking", the Gaelic chief who defeated the Vikings and established Clan Donald.
 "More than 50,000 Scottish  men, most of them with the surname MacDonald or its variants, are the direct decendants of Somerled. The first Lord of the Isles and founder of Clan Donald, he ruled the Hebrides and was King of the Isle of Man. When he clashed with Malcolm IV of Scotland at Renfrew in 1164, Somerled was killed - but his genes certainly lived on".
23% of a group tested carry the M17 Norse signature while others carry the M222 Celtic signature and S155 Pictish signature.
These were hybrid clans with access and trade to Gaelic and Viking territories.
Many of the Viking strongholds including Dublin became Gaelicised after a period.
"The Norse-Gaels originated in Viking colonies of Ireland and Scotland, whose inhabitants became subject to the process of Gaelicisation, whereby starting as early as the ninth century, most intermarried with native Gaels (except for the Norse who settled in Cumbria) and adopted the Gaelic language as well as many other Gaelic customs. Many left their original worship of Norse gods and converted to Christianity, and this contributed to the Gaelicisation".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall-Gaidheal


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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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OConnor
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« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2011, 12:34:59 PM »

Somerled died approx 1164

Origins
The Norse-Gaelic Clan Donald traces its descent from Dòmhnall Mac Raghnuill (d. circa 1250),

[1] whose father Reginald or Ranald was styled "King of the Isles" and "Lord of Argyll and Kintyre".[2] Ranald's father, Somerled was styled "King of the Hebrides. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Donald#Origins

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Norwegian Control
"The Hebrides began to come under Norse control and settlement already before the 9th century. Norwegian rule of the Hebrides was formalised in 1098 when Edgar of Scotland recognised the claim of Magnus III of Norway. The Scottish acceptance of Magnus as King of the Isles came after the Norwegian king had conquered earlier the same year the Orkney Islands, the Hebrides and the Isle of Man in a swift campaign against the local Norse leaders of the various islands. By capturing the islands Magnus imposed a more direct royal control over land seized by his kinsmen centuries earlier.

The Norwegian control of both the Inner and Outer Hebrides would see almost constant warfare until the partitioning of the Western Isles in 1156. The Outer Hebrides remained under the Kingdom of Mann and the Isles while the Inner Hebrides broke out under Somerled, the Norse-Gael kinsman of both Lulach and the Manx royal house.

After his victory of 1156 Somerled went on to seize control over the Isle of Man itself two years later and become the last King of Mann and the Isles to rule over all the islands the kingdom had once included. After Somerled's death in 1164 the rulers of Mann were no longer in control of the Inner Hebrides."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrides



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M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Jdean
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« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2011, 12:41:52 PM »

Take the case of "Somerlad the Viking", the Gaelic chief who defeated the Vikings and established Clan Donald.
 "More than 50,000 Scottish  men, most of them with the surname MacDonald or its variants, are the direct decendants of Somerled.".

23% of a group tested carry the M17 Norse signature while others carry the M222 Celtic signature and S155 Pictish signature.

I’m probably missing something here but which of these is the identifying signature for Somerled carried by MacDonalds?

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« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2011, 12:56:56 PM »

Maybe it's the Irish Sea model? ;)
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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jerome72
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« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2011, 01:06:06 PM »


Dr. David Faux has a very interesting analysis of the book and this point in particular on rootsweb.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-03/1299085388

First off, Faux was wrong.

fun! Faux in french means wrong!

Nobody talked about L459.
For now, we do not know if this SNP is before or after L21, But if it is after, and if we found L21 but negatif for  L459, it will be very interresting to see what areas they are!
Maybe the original land of L21
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