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Author Topic: Also R-P312 from Italy?  (Read 1777 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: April 17, 2011, 02:18:08 AM »

I thank Ricardo Costa de Oliveira for having posted this post on Rootsweb from “dna-forums” where of course I haven’t access.

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Draft_P312_Tree_v004.png

But I have something to say:
1)Spain was said to have the highest percentage of R-P312. Now we are seeing that it has only above all the subclades of this haplogroup (SRY2627, rs1469371 and M153). The most ancient ones are above all out of Spain (3 Tuscany, 1 N/W Europe and Great Britain) even though Spaniards were the most tested.
Also the R-P312* (no subclades so far) are above all out of Spain: (3 N/W European, 2 Tuscany, 2 Great Britain).
It is clear then that Spain isn’t at the origin of R-P312, and less of its upstream hapogroups. That Tuscany, even though less tested than the other places, has the most ancient haplogroups demonstrates I think that also this one was born here, like the largely demonstrated R-L51 etc.

2)Rich Rocca says that these data could demonstrate a migration from East to West. Yes, it was what I am saying from many years. There was a link between Ligurians and Spaniards? Ligurians are amongst the most ancient Indo-Europeans present in Italy and now we know that R-U152 has its highest percentage among Ligurians who were probably at the origin also of this haplogroup. The Italian Refugium, like I was saying. Spain has a very low percentage of R-U152, then the migration from Italy to Spain happened in a more ancient time, before that from R-P312 was born R-U152.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 03:06:36 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2011, 11:23:33 AM »

You know I don't agree with your out-of-Italy theory, but I do think U152=Ligurian is worthy of consideration.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2011, 01:01:47 PM »

Many thanks, Rich. Anyway you should mind these data coming out from the postings of Rich Rocca (who is himself an R-U152 from Italy) on "dna-forums" I cannot see. It seems that the most ancient haplotypes of R-P312 are in Tuscany and N/W Europe and the British Isles. You know that my theory was and is that those places were peopled by Italy. It seems at the same time that Spain is derived, as I have always said. Of course I have infinite data which sustain my theories and I know the places in Italy where to find those ancient haplotypes. My zone of the Monti Pisani is one of them: from here come my mt K1a1b1, the R1b1b2 of my relative Fabrizio Federighi and also his R0a very ancient and with many mutations that the Middle Eastern one hasn't etc. etc.
I am always waiting for the Y of Oetzi, which will be able to say something important.
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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2011, 06:00:19 PM »

Many thanks, Rich. Anyway you should mind these data coming out from the postings of Rich Rocca (who is himself an R-U152 from Italy) on "dna-forums" I cannot see. It seems that the most ancient haplotypes of R-P312 are in Tuscany and N/W Europe and the British Isles. You know that my theory was and is that those places were peopled by Italy. It seems at the same time that Spain is derived, as I have always said. Of course I have infinite data which sustain my theories and I know the places in Italy where to find those ancient haplotypes. My zone of the Monti Pisani is one of them: from here come my mt K1a1b1, the R1b1b2 of my relative Fabrizio Federighi and also his R0a very ancient and with many mutations that the Middle Eastern one hasn't etc. etc.
I am always waiting for the Y of Oetzi, which will be able to say something important.

Well, I am open to anything, and Italy would be grand.

I too would love to know about Oetzi's y-dna.
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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2011, 06:41:29 PM »

... postings of Rich Rocca (who is himself an R-U152 from Italy) on "dna-forums" I cannot see. It seems that the most ancient haplotypes of R-P312 are in Tuscany and N/W Europe and the British Isles....
I am following the posts on the new SNP discoveries. I can't remember anything about "ancient" R-P312 haplotypes in Tuscany, N/W Europe and the British Isles although that covers a large territory.  What haplotypes are you referring to and why would you call them "ancient" if they are from modern day people?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2011, 12:16:13 AM »

If you read the posting of Rocca, he says that Tuscans (with N/W Europeans and British Islanders) have the most ancient haplotype of R-P312: P312*, Z195/Z196, Z270/Z274, then in these places there were the most ancient R-P312, and in Spain there are the derived ones. Remember that the "1000 Genomes project" has done above all by Spaniards and their descendants of America Latina.
Of course only a wide analysis about these new SNPs will be able to give us a more detailed answer. But this is probably what will come.
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OConnor
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« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2011, 08:55:32 AM »

They're all vikings ;))
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2011, 09:58:52 AM »

If you read the posting of Rocca, he says that Tuscans (with N/W Europeans and British Islanders) have the most ancient haplotype of R-P312: P312*, Z195/Z196, Z270/Z274, then in these places there were the most ancient R-P312, and in Spain there are the derived ones. Remember that the "1000 Genomes project" has done above all by Spaniards and their descendants of America Latina.
Of course only a wide analysis about these new SNPs will be able to give us a more detailed answer. But this is probably what will come.
I didn't interpret what he said as concluding the part about "most ancient haplotype." Perhaps this is just a wording/communication issue between us or just the use of the "most".  Please keep in mind that these are all modern folks that RRocca is talking about. Therefore, none are really ancient. There are just some with the "known" derived SNP's and some that are ancestral for those same SNP's but probably are derived for other SNP's that we haven't discovered yet.

I think the main concern is to look at intra-clade and inter-clade variance as well as haplogroup diversity by geography.

I'm not saying you are wrong about Italy, though. I just haven't seen higher variance in R-P312 there.  It is true that are are some R-M269 P312- U106- people in Italy but there are some those in places like Scandinavia as well, among other places.
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« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2011, 10:42:45 AM »

I am not up to date on everyone's findings and suspicions,

Has Scandinavia been ruled out as a major source of R-P312 and associated clades for the Isles, and continental n/western Europe?
(Instead of slaves from the Isles to Scandinavia?)

I like to think we came from the Scandinavian direction. It may help explain my  2 low level matches who are native Siberian.

With P312 in Italy how do we explain that? There is a lot of continent between Italy and Scandinavia. Yet only 1 or 2 R-L21 in Italy so far. how do we explain their presence?

Sorry for rambling... The whole picture looks odd.

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2011, 11:20:51 AM »

@ O’Connor

“Yet only 1 or 2 R-L21 in Italy so far”.

Actually Italian R-L21 is only one: Argiedude. I have demonstrated that the others either were French or probably due to a NPE. And also Argiedude is suspicious. He matches closely a family with British surname. I asked him to contact them but I hadn’t a reply. He is Argentine (father of Italian descent and mother French), but without a test to a close relative in Italy we cannot be sure of his descent (see desaparecidos etc.). Lately I asked him to test the most ancient SNP of R-L21: no replay. If he is of Italian descent, I have hypothesized that he could be one of the most ancient R-L21 born in Italy before the migration to North and North-West Europe.
Anyway the (pretty completely) lack of R-L21 in Italy has been for me the demonstration that there hadn’t been any migration in these last millennia to Italy, or if it has been didn’t have had descendants. For this I think that what we find now in Europe is ancient, very ancient.

When I say “ancient” for an haplotype I do mean that it is ancestral and if we find in Spain only the derived ones, probably that haplotype isn’t at the origin Spanish but has come from elsewhere. The SNPs of R-P312 found in Scandinavia are demonstrating that an ancient R-P312* arrived there (I think from Italy after the Younger Dryas, but you may hypothesize from East Europe or elsewhere) when R-P312* hadn’t yet had any of the news SNPs found so far. Anyway Scandinavia has some different SNPs (see L238) than Italy or Spain, demonstrating an autonomous developing.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2011, 12:22:04 PM »

... Has Scandinavia been ruled out as a major source of R-P312 and associated clades for the Isles, and continental n/western Europe?
(Instead of slaves from the Isles to Scandinavia?)
I haven't ruled Scandinavia out. I don't think it was origin of P312 overall, but I have no doubt that some of P312 and its subclades went to other places from Scandinavia.  There is just too much P312 All (I'm incl. subclades) in Scandinavia to say it is all thralls or whatever from the Isles. Also I think there should be more M222 in Scandinavia if P312 All was all imported from the Isles.

Quote from: OConnor
With P312 in Italy how do we explain that? There is a lot of continent between Italy and Scandinavia. Yet only 1 or 2 R-L21 in Italy so far. how do we explain their presence? ...
There is a L21+ P66+ test result from Italy. I recently found out that we have two P66+ folks that are 11-13 Group A-2-M (Maguire/McGuire/McKown folks). As it turns out they actually have a genealogical connection to a Colonel McGuire related to the Flight of the Earls and McGuire ended up in Italy and stayed there until he died (in Genoa.) ... maybe just a coincidence.

P312 is flung far and wide. The MRCA's of its two biggest subclades, U152 and L21, are nearly as old as P312 itself. The modal for P312, L21 and U152 is all pretty much the same - WAMH.

The genetic evidence is that P312 all expanded widely and rapidly.  Whether this is the Neolithic advance or something else, I don't know. Where it came from, I don't know.  Here are some clues. 
- P312's highest variance and haplogroup diversity is in France.
- P312's oldest son, U152, has its highest variance in the Alpine region.
- P312's brother, U106, seems to be from Northern/Northeastern Europe but does have a substantial presence in the Alpine region as well.
- P312 can be found as far east as Turkey all the way to Central Russia.
- P312's other brothers, R-L11*, are too thinly and lightly spread to figure out.

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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2011, 11:58:29 AM »


I still suspect M222's origin will turn out to be Scandinavia. Along with L-159.2
And for the record..I don't want to be a viking.

M222 is found outside of N/W Ireland.
"In the Western Isles and in Orkney, for example, as well as in the North of England adjacent to the Scottish Border. A very few individuals have been found in Iceland, Norway and Germany"  http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/default.aspx

As for the R-P312 in Italy
I would guess R-P312 was in Italy before R-L21 hatched.  So how did R-P312 get to Italy?How early?  I don't know much about maritime travel from the middle east other then the Phoenicians. Surely they were not all haplo J ??

Or if it arrived by land...who brought it?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2011, 03:39:21 PM »

As for the R-P312 in Italy
I would guess R-P312 was in Italy before R-L21 hatched.  So how did R-P312 get to Italy?How early?  I don't know much about maritime travel from the middle east other then the Phoenicians. Surely they were not all haplo J ??
Or if it arrived by land...who brought it?

You, like many others, do forget that Italy has the most ancient haplogroups upstream R-P312, beginning from R1b1/V88- to R-L51, which is in Italy at the highest percentage. How can R-P312 have come from elsewhere if East Europe and above all Anatolia and Middle East haven't these haplogroups? They have only R-L23+, but many are different from the Western European ones (see R-L405), and it isn't said that the Italian one (mine, for instance) has come from elsewhere rathar than Italy.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 12:22:47 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2011, 12:49:02 PM »

Does Italy have any R1 or R1a? to speak of.
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rms2
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« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2011, 12:50:07 PM »

Does Italy have any R1 or R1a? to speak of.

I think it has a little R1a, especially up in the NE corner, near Slovenia.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2011, 07:04:21 PM »

I spoke of a possible Italian Refugium aslo for R1a many years ago, after the paper of Pichler and others, those with DYS392=13. Now It has been discovered that really Italy has some of the most ancient R1a, not only in NE (the Rhaetian region), but also in the conservative region of the Middle Appennine. Anyway the most ancient R or R1 did have come to Italy from elsewhere, but probably many thousands of years ago: perhaps some tens of thousands.
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