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Author Topic: U152 in Scandinavia? Really?  (Read 2596 times)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2011, 05:13:44 PM »

Well, it sounds like an improvement over the old "Cro-Magnon" R1b days, anyway. If Dr. Wilson has moved us forward that much in time, that is certainly a promising sign.

I like the idea of a Beaker Folk origin for L21; it's more glamorous than being descended from a Neolithic farmer. I can't offer any good evidence to support the idea; I just like it. However, I do suspect a Beaker Folk origin may be the truth. Celtic lingo had to get to Britain somehow. Why not with some of the Beaker Folk?

Its certainly one of the two best options.  I think really now its pretty well agreed it must be either the first farmers or the beaker people.  I think that is progress.  The distribution of beakers does bear a strong resemblance to S116 and in some way or another that probably represents some sort of network of contact and therefore at least some gene flow.  The only problem I see is that the origin of beakers and the first true copper working industry in western Europe are currently placed in Iberia shortly after 3000BC while variance for S116 clades points to France and Germany as the oldest with Iberia and Italy being later overspills.  Clearly the phylogeny of L51-L23-L11-S116/U106 points to an east west movement.  That for me remains the stumbling block of the beaker idea.  Variance in general does not seem to support the idea of a movement along the Med. for S116.  Funny thing is idea that beakers evolved from corded ware on the latter's western edges that was accepted by many until a little after 2000 would have fitted S116 much better. 
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2011, 11:30:52 AM »

Its certainly one of the two best options.  I think really now its pretty well agreed it must be either the first farmers or the beaker people.  I think that is progress.  The distribution of beakers does bear a strong resemblance to S116 and in some way or another that probably represents some sort of network of contact and therefore at least some gene flow.  The only problem I see is that the origin of beakers and the first true copper working industry in western Europe are currently placed in Iberia shortly after 3000BC while variance for S116 clades points to France and Germany as the oldest with Iberia and Italy being later overspills.  Clearly the phylogeny of L51-L23-L11-S116/U106 points to an east west movement.  That for me remains the stumbling block of the beaker idea.  Variance in general does not seem to support the idea of a movement along the Med. for S116.  Funny thing is idea that beakers evolved from corded ware on the latter's western edges that was accepted by many until a little after 2000 would have fitted S116 much better. 
What caused the idea that the Beaker culture originated in Iberia and not closer to Germany?  Is it just the dating of the sites with the Beaker pottery? What was the predecessor to the Beaker culture in Portugal? 

I ask because I don't think the innovations of the culture evolved in situ out on the western coast of Europe.  Perhaps that is an old bias I have about innovations, such as farming, animal husbandry, metalworking as coming out of the Near East/SW Asia area.

Are there sub-components of the Beaker "package" found elsewhere at earlier times?
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Heber
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« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2011, 07:37:59 PM »

Its certainly one of the two best options.  I think really now its pretty well agreed it must be either the first farmers or the beaker people.  I think that is progress.  The distribution of beakers does bear a strong resemblance to S116 and in some way or another that probably represents some sort of network of contact and therefore at least some gene flow.  The only problem I see is that the origin of beakers and the first true copper working industry in western Europe are currently placed in Iberia shortly after 3000BC while variance for S116 clades points to France and Germany as the oldest with Iberia and Italy being later overspills.  Clearly the phylogeny of L51-L23-L11-S116/U106 points to an east west movement.  That for me remains the stumbling block of the beaker idea.  Variance in general does not seem to support the idea of a movement along the Med. for S116.  Funny thing is idea that beakers evolved from corded ware on the latter's western edges that was accepted by many until a little after 2000 would have fitted S116 much better. 
What caused the idea that the Beaker culture originated in Iberia and not closer to Germany?  Is it just the dating of the sites with the Beaker pottery? What was the predecessor to the Beaker culture in Portugal? 

I ask because I don't think the innovations of the culture evolved in situ out on the western coast of Europe.  Perhaps that is an old bias I have about innovations, such as farming, animal husbandry, metalworking as coming out of the Near East/SW Asia area.

Are there sub-components of the Beaker "package" found elsewhere at earlier times?


You can listen to the original BBC broadcasts based on the book below:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00yrkxc

I ordered the book. Looking forward to a good read.
The sample used was 3,000 from throughout Scotland so it is a big improvement on the Myres data. It appears to support the general Myres findings.
When Myres was published, I tried to ploy the migrations of M222 as follows:

http://www.box.net/shared/oqtrep2dng

I will update the chart when I get hold of Wilson's data. Does anyone know if it is available online. I still have an issue with the Myres dates, which appear old. The Bell Beaker connection is looking very interesting and seems to fit this theory. I never did like the term Bell Beaker. As someone pointed out in another forum, will archealogists in 2,000 years call us the Tupper Ware people:).
 
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



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