World Families Forums - Interesting L51- in new YHRD release

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
August 22, 2014, 02:39:11 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Interesting L51- in new YHRD release
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Interesting L51- in new YHRD release  (Read 872 times)
MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« on: January 10, 2011, 02:09:03 PM »

In the new YHRD release 35, I found what looks like 10 L51- haplotypes in the Sverdlovsk Region of Russia.  This is an area just east of the Urals around Yekaterinburg.

The haplotype is 14, 13, 29, 24, 11, 13, 12, 11-14. 

What's interesting is this is a relatively large number for a sample of R1b so far east.  The next closest with this type are Stavropol, Rostov, and Kiev with 3 each.  Then around Poland and Czech Republic it increases again.  This is basically what the Myres study showed with older R1b types in the east.
Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2011, 09:23:12 PM »

Does this suggest a move North from Anatolia for R-M269?
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2011, 12:58:56 PM »

Possibly, the highest variance for M269 is still there (SW Asia).  I found L23 slightly higher in the South Caucasus rather than Anatolia.  I don't think that is significant though since it is the same general area and I had a limited amount of STRs.  However, the L51- (probably L23) there may also turn out to be some yet to be discovered SNPs that will continue to break up L23*.

I doubt the L51- in the Urals is a result of some back migration from Central or Eastern Europe in later times.  Like the Caucacus it is a hotspot for early R1b in terms of frequency.  Myres found a low variance for the L23 Bashkirs, but they may have origins from around the Azov sea in  the middle ages.  These R1b were probably natives who were "turkicized" at that time.  Other groups like the Komi, Mari, etc. are still an unknown in terms of variance.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 01:01:30 PM by MHammers » Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2011, 07:21:50 PM »

Possibly, the highest variance for M269 is still there (SW Asia).  I found L23 slightly higher in the South Caucasus rather than Anatolia.  I don't think that is significant though since it is the same general area and I had a limited amount of STRs.  However, the L51- (probably L23) there may also turn out to be some yet to be discovered SNPs that will continue to break up L23*.

I doubt the L51- in the Urals is a result of some back migration from Central or Eastern Europe in later times.  Like the Caucacus it is a hotspot for early R1b in terms of frequency.  Myres found a low variance for the L23 Bashkirs, but they may have origins from around the Azov sea in  the middle ages.  These R1b were probably natives who were "turkicized" at that time.  Other groups like the Komi, Mari, etc. are still an unknown in terms of variance.

Very interesting. Sverdlovsk is just east of the Pontic Steppe, correct? I am not sure where it begins and ends. If R1b did move north, that corresponds to the Maikop and Yamnaya territories, eh?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 07:22:16 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2011, 01:12:27 AM »

I'm not sure about the exact boundaries of the Sverdlovsk region, but it wouldn't be considered the steppe.  More like west Siberia and north east of the Yamnaya and Maikop territories.  It is interesting that proto-indoeuropean is thought to have developed in the area roughly north of the Caucasus, but also has links/borrowings with Proto-Uralic and Caucasian languages, though much more so with the Uralic group.  Both areas are significant for L23 today. 

We do know that the Sredny stog culture introduced a new and more gracile physical type to the steppe area around 4500-4000 BC, which was different from the more robust and earlier Dnieper-Donets people.  Sredny Stog was right before Yamnaya and Maikop.  This is also about the same time for the development of proto-indoeuropean according to David Anthony's work.  Maybe some of these guys were M269 and/or L23.  I don't think the dates would be out of the question.

Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2011, 02:44:24 PM »

Did these Sredny Stog immigrants come from the south?
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2011, 12:44:30 AM »

Did these Sredny Stog immigrants come from the south?

Good question with no clear answer.  Anthony only put their origin in the Volga region.  I tend to think they weren't indigenous to the steppe i.e. holdovers from the UP and Mesolithic.  Fish and marine life were important in the foragers , whereas horsemeat for Sredny Stog.  Also, they introduced new funeral rituals, pottery, physical type, and probably the earliest occurrences of horseback riding in that region.  The physical type is less robust than the foragers especially in facial breadth, though still more than the contemporary Anatolian/Balkan farmers.  

In looking at an R1b scenario here, I think it is possible that some R1b came from SW Asia to the north Caucasus around today's Dagestan in the Neolithic.  From there, the Volga delta is not too far away.  Some stayed and emerged as Sredny Stog,Yamnaya, and Maikop.  Others followed the Volga/Kama and Ural rivers north and were part of the ethno-genesis of the later Uralic peoples.  At the same time, proto-indoeuropean is developing with strong Uralic links because of this Caucasus to Urals axis.  All speculation, of course.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 12:47:09 AM by MHammers » Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.096 seconds with 18 queries.