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Author Topic: Also R1b1b1 from the Italian Refugium?  (Read 1574 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: January 02, 2011, 12:18:34 PM »

It’s time of “Goetterdammerung”, the God mathematics, if even Dienekes is saying that using these used calculations “Adam” is old between 10k and 219ky. I have been saying in these last years  that there are mutations around the modal, that they of course belong above all to the fast mutating markers, that the R1b1b2 age of a few thousand years was ridiculous etc.
In other threads, also recently, I have said that not only R1b1b2 is more ancient than it is thought by pretty everyone, but also that probably R1b1b1, thought Asiatic by everybody, could be European.
Vincent Vizachero leads the R1b1b1 project, with 3 clades: A (European), B1 (Asiatic), B2 (Asiatic) with the mutation (practically a SNP) of DYS390=19. At a first glance I said yesterday that the European clade had more variance and more ancientness and the Asiatic ones (both) were more recent and derived from the European one.
I show to Vincent (and to every other interested) these data to be pondered.

Some are only an update of data from SMGF:
DHPA3, 3DAMN, 5RHXG, HVJJX, DQD88, 24WVG.

Others are new:
W4ETT (B2 clade but with DYS390=21)
YPM8Z
ZDG4F
CY6JN
ZV3AN
DNY22
XZWD7 and QVPSC (two Italians tested for a few markers but I think R1b1b1)

Of course there are many anonymous Asians, but very close to the tested ones and with a low variance we may leave out.

I suggest to consider others, like 8RTDD (tested R1b1 but I think R1b1b1), 56ARP,  BJ9J6/GHNA7, QVVS8 (and many others tested for only 12 markers who could be R1b1b1).                    
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 01:08:04 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2011, 04:04:19 AM »

Argiedude has announced on Rootsweb that YHRD has updated its data. I have begun a research for checking my hypothesis of an Italian refugium also for R1b1b1.

The haplotype of “Anonymous American” (CY6JN): 14, 14-29, 24, 12, 13, 12, 13-14= 0.

The haplotype of “Anonymous Mexican” (ZV3AN):  13, 14-29, 25, 9, 13, 12, 13-14= 0
But with DYS19= 14 there are two individuals, one in Brazil and the other in Portugal. We can say that this haplotype has a recent presence in Iberia.

The haplotype of Diaz (QVVS8) and Mainenti (7MARF):  14, 14-29, 25, 11, 13, 12, 13-14 has 1 individual in China, but the other values (DYS438=10, DYS439=11, DYS437=14, DYS448=17, DYS456=13, DYS458=15, DYS635=19, H4=12 tell another story, if it is R1b1b1) but with DYS390=26 there is an individual in East Croatia, with DYS438=10, DYS439=12, DYS437=15, DYS448=20, DYS456=15, DYS458=18, DYS635=23, H4=11, certainly an R1b1b1, and close to the Italian refugium. See also Peterson (YPM8Z).

The haplotype of Vizzaccaro, not Vincent of course, (JSKGT): 14, 14-29, 26, 10, 13, 12, 13-15) =0.

The haplotype of Colwell (DHPA3): 14, 13-28, 24, 11, 13, 12, 13-15 =0
but with DYS392= 14 one indivudual Bologna (Italy):see also Shurtleff (DQD88)
      with DYS393= 13 one individual Central Portugal
      with DYS385= 12-15 one individual Romania

      with DYS392=14 and DYS385=13-14 one individual Sicily (Italy) ], but see also the Italian Bernardini (93C99) with DYS391=12, ascribed to hg. B*, but evidently R1b1b1: I have written to him asking for an upgrade  
    
      with DYS392=14 and DYS385= 14-15 one individual Banghazi (libya)
      with DYS392=14 and DYS391=10 one individual Bologna (Italy).

My researches have expired for today (P.S. completed 1.4.2010)

P.S. May I say that Italy is the centre?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 07:40:48 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2011, 07:36:58 AM »

There is already an upgrade of the same Bernardini (Reginaldo Bernardini) ZKU7B, but with DYS391=10 instead of 12 in the first 12 markers. ZKU7B is R1b1b2, even though with some interesting values. The ancestor is different. I shall ask an explanation.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2011, 04:42:49 AM »

Hreczuck (ZGD4F), haplotype 15, 14-29, 26, 11, 13, 12, 13-14, is from Poland. His haplotype has 0 occurrence on YHRD, but

with DYS19= 14 there is an individual in East Croatia (with DYS438=10, DYS439=12, DYS437=15, DYS448=20, DYS456=15, DYS458=18, DYS635=23, H4=11)

with DYS490=25 there is an individual in China but he has DYS438=10, DYS439=11, DYS437=14, DYS448=17, DYS456=13, DYS458=15, DYS635=19, H4=12.

Smith (8RTDD), haplotype 14, 13-30, 22, 10, 13, 13, 13-18, has been put by Vizachero among R1b1b1 clade B1, that Asian one, even though Smith was born in New York, but his ancestor Donald Smith was an orphan. He finds no match in YHRD, but with DYS19=13 he finds two close individuals from Madhya Pradesh, India (Gond) and 1 from England-Wales, UK (Indo-Pakistan) with DYS438=10, DYS439=13, DYS437=15, DYS448=19, DYS456=15, DYS458=16, DYS635=21, H4=12.
It is very likely that this haplotype is from India and that the ancestor of Smith was from there.

The haplotypes with DYS390=19 are clearly Asiatic, but this is a derived haplotype and we must understand where was born the ancestor: one is European and the other is Asiatic.


« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 06:48:10 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2011, 06:43:39 AM »

Anonymous Kyrkyz (W4ETT), haplotype 14, 14-30, 21, 11, 13, 13, 13-13, finds no individual on YHRD, but

with DYS389-2=31 finds one individual: Qinghai, China (Tibetan) with DYS438=10, DYS439=12, DYS 437=15, DYS448=20, DYS456=15, DYS458=15, DYS635=23, H4=11. This is probably a third Asian haplotype, we may call B3 in the Vizachero’s classification, intermediate between B1 and B2.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2011, 12:25:45 PM »

The definite proof that R1b1b1 was born in Europe I think that can be seen in YCAII. The Asiatic haplotypes know only the values 19-24 and 19-25.  Europe has all the values from 19-23 to 19-26, and Asia, having a wider diffusion and numbers than Europe, should have more variance.
Italy has the values from 19-23 (Mainenti) to 19-26 (Vizzaccaro: the other).
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Maliclavelli


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NealtheRed
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« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2011, 07:32:10 PM »

The definite proof that R1b1b1 was born in Europe I think that can be seen in YCAII. The Asiatic haplotypes know only the values 19-24 and 19-25.  Europe has all the values from 19-23 to 19-26, and Asia, having a wider diffusion and numbers than Europe, should have more variance.
Italy has the values from 19-23 (Mainenti) to 19-26 (Vizzaccaro: the other).


Fratello,

What accounts for Asiatic haplotypes? Do you include SW Asia?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2011, 01:30:24 AM »

Of course I have included all the haplotypes I found, but in Asia it seems there are two fundamental haplotypes of R1b1b1: 1 Mongol-Turk and the other from India. If there is some R1b1b1 in West Asia it is of Turkish origin, but I don't remember having found one in Turkey and also this is strange. The Chinese ones are Mongol I think, but those found in China of which I have given the values are so different that we should ascertain if they are really R1b1b1: "Athey" says they are hg. T, but I think it would need a SNP exam, being they so ancient that they could overlap.
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Maliclavelli


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vineviz
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« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2011, 07:59:57 PM »

What accounts for Asiatic haplotypes? Do you include SW Asia?
I warn you to avoid putting stock in what Mal has to say on this topic.  He's got quite the ax to grind.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2011, 03:20:59 AM »

I warn you to avoid putting stock in what Mal has to say on this topic.  He's got quite the ax to grind.

I warn you to speak of “stocks” and “axes”, because perhaps you could find them somewhere.
After I’ll post a detailed analysis of the variance  and I’ll demonstrate why I am right and you are wrong.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2011, 05:12:40 AM »

As I have said above, being the variance a function of the meioses and having and having had Asia a greater number of R1b1b1 than Europe, it should have a higher variance. Instead we find a higher variance in the European clade. Why?
Vizachero in his spreadsheet has calculated the lowest and the highest value of every markers and everyone can see by his eyes: the markers with an highest variance are more in the European clade than in the Asian ones. The Asian ones are two (or three) but we could reduce them to one. They have in fact, above all in the slowest mutating markers from DYS531 to DYS565, values we can conduct again to an unique clade (11, 8, 16-16, 8, 10-10, 8, 10-10, 12, 23-23, 16, 10, 12, 12, 16, 8, 12, 24, 20, 13, 12, 11, 13, 11, 11, 12, 12).
DYS534, not one of the slowest mutating markers, having a mutation rate of 0.00832 (Chandler) or 0.00651 (Ballantyne), and on which we can see at work my theory of the mutations around the modal (and sometimes for the tangent), has an initial value of 15 practically in all the haplogroups.
The European clade, even though in the only eight samples of Vizachero, has the values 13, 14, 15, 17. The Asian ones has 16,17,18. We can see that value 16, probably at the origin of the Asian clusters, lacks in the European one, but it should have been if there are the 17 value. We can hypothesize that an European R1b1b1, with DYS534=16, is at the origin of the Asian clusters.

After having been separated from R1b1 (L388/L389), R1b1b cumulated 12 SNPs (those of 23andME we can see on the “Adriano’s spreadsheet"):
rs 4032353
rs 2917400
rs 4141961
rs 7067278
rs 9786335
rs 9786386
rs 9786353
rs 9786772
rs 9785702
rs 9785953
rs 9786169
rs 9786576

After they separated with the SNP M73 and R1b1b2 cumulated other three dozens SNPs as Vizachero says. We expect that also R-M73 has cumulated a similar number of its own SNPs, but we don’t find trace in the 23andME exam. Then we had a bottleneck for R1b1b (i.e. they lived in the same isolated place and only one survived of that people) and another longer bottleneck for R1b1b2. These are the questions we should answer: where and when? It could be also the Caucasus more than the Alps or Pyrenees, but the times couldn’t be than that from LGM to Younger Dryas.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 02:32:03 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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